Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dabutcher Feb 26, 2009 20:27:38	Well folks, we've seen at least a glimpse of 18 classes in 4e. Now which classes are best at their roles? Does the Ranger take the cake, or does the Barbarian smash it into pieces? Can the Warden stand up to the Fighter, or does the Fighter rock harder at taking hits? I know that we can't really tell until Primal Power (along with the others) come out, but what are your predictions? Please take into account: Playability Mechanics Stats And anything else relevant My predictions are as follows: Controller - Wizard. It's easy to play a Wizard. Or at least easier than Invoker. The Invoker's powers are widely considered better than the Wizard's, but I think that Arcane Implement Mastery outclasses any of the Invoker's class features. Oh yeah, and Sleep. Defender - Paladin. Paladin is pretty easy to play. Yes, Fighter is easier, but it's easy enough to play Pally. Paladins, unlike Fighters, place a wide and amazingly useful debuffs on enemies. Fighter plays more like a striker. And if a Paladin screws up and an enemy gets on a squishy, the Pally can heal. Swordmage's aegis doesn't have nearly the range of the Pally's challenge, and Swordmage powers that mark are few and far. Leader - Warlord. The sheer benefits to attack rolls and damage rolls from the Warlord are insane. With a few APs and an awesome Warlord buff, your party can clear an encounter before it even starts. While the Cleric rocks at healing, Clerics can't do much else. It's very easy to play a Warlord, especially Bravura (so much fun:D). Striker - Avenger. With some solid optimizing, you can get an Avenger's crit to 35%. If you focus on crits, an Avenger can outclass the other strikers by far, assuring at least one crit per encounter. Avengers also exude coolness, and sound amazingly fun to play. Post away!
#2 Cyber-Dave Feb 26, 2009 20:35:08	Controller: I don't know. I will have to see the Invoker class in the PHB 2, and read all its powers, before I make this call. Defender: Fighter There is just something about a fighter that I really like. Paladins are a close second, but fighters are still my numero uno. Leader: Cleric I like divine flavor. That puts clerics as my favorit leaders. This is likely to change once the finished Artificer class is released. Striker: Damn... that's a hard call. Most of my favorite classes are striker classes. From the PHB 1 is the rogue hands down, with ranger as a close second. But with the PHB 2 it becomes a much harder call. I REALLY like the Rogue, Barbarian, and Avenger, and I don't think I can call a favorite out of them. And, for the record, I have not chosen the "best" roles. I think everything is balanced fairly well. I just picked the classes I like most from particular roles.
#3 recalcitrant041 Feb 26, 2009 20:54:46	Controller: Wizard I've only played a paragon war wizard, and I must say the awesome array of spells a wizard has to wreck havoc on many enemies makes one drool. The invoker hits harder, but doesn't control as much, IMO. Defender: [Dwarf] Fighter Fighter wins because of the ability to disrupt with Combat Superiority and Weapon Specialization. Fighters hit more and block out monsters from getting to clothies better. Dwarfs especially because they're more durable with Dwarven Resilience; they can surround themselves with enemies and don't have to sacrifice a round of attacking to heal up. Leader: Cleric I've played leaders mostly and they all can't hit. This was actually the hardest to choose. I like playing a warlord better, but the cleric's ability to heal outshines a warlord vastly plus they can buff almost as well. Sacred Flame is a must for any cleric. Haven't seen a shaman in game yet, but looking forward to it. Striker: Ranger Rogues can hit harder, but an [elven] archer ranger can be absolutely deadly. Even from 20 squares away, the ranger can consistently hit and roll 3-6 damage dice, even in heroic tier.
#4 pigknight Feb 26, 2009 21:29:23	Controller - Wizard Defender - Fighter, can mark multiple targets. Leader - Cleric, he be trippin' heals yo'. Striker - Ranger or Rogue.
#5 mplindustries Feb 26, 2009 21:31:16	If a particular class is better than another, it obsoletes those classes. The point of 4e is total parity. Just because a Ranger out damages most Rogues does not make it a better Striker. I think you need to define the roles clearly before someone can make these judgments. For example, I think the best Controller is a Warlord. They have far more impact on the tempo and positioning of the battle than a wizard does, its just that the Warlord does it through controlling allies instead of enemies.
#6 thecasualoblivion Feb 26, 2009 21:35:46	I have seen all classes in action, and can comment: Defender--Fighter by a mile. While they aren't as versatile as the Paladin, they have the most dominating mark, can be built to deal Ranger style damage(without sacrificing their other abilities), and can dominate multiple enemies better than the other Defenders. I'd call Fighter the most powerful class in the game at this point. Striker--This is tough, but I have to go with Ranger here. Rangers have reliability and consistency to go with their hitting power that the other Strikers just don't have. Leader--Warlord. Clerics just don't have the firepower to keep up with the Warlord. Adding your Cha or Int modifier to the entire party's initiative rolls is one of the most powerful things I've seen in this game, and Warlords at higher levels have the most ability to Nova that I've seen in this game. The Eladrin Tactical Warlord is my particular favorite. Controller--Only having three levels of Druid and Invoker, I still gotta go with Wizard. No other class in the game has the firepower of Sleep, Stinking Cloud, Prismatic Burst, and orb-locking.
#7 Ramien Feb 26, 2009 21:42:55	Controller: Druid. The extra durability helps a lot for position, and faerie fire rocks. Defender: Going to have to stick with the fighter, until I learn more about the warden. Leader: Bard. They seem to be a defensive version of the warlord, focusing more on keeping allies out of harm rather than guiding them to the attack. Striker: Rogue. I'll have to wait until I see the Barbarian, but Rogues just have too much style for me to choose anyone else.
#8 dabutcher Feb 26, 2009 21:45:11	If a particular class is better than another, it obsoletes those classes. The point of 4e is total parity. Just because a Ranger out damages most Rogues does not make it a better Striker. I think you need to define the roles clearly before someone can make these judgments. For example, I think the best Controller is a Warlord. They have far more impact on the tempo and positioning of the battle than a wizard does, its just that the Warlord does it through controlling allies instead of enemies. Very true. But this is more about opinion rather than fact. For clarity, lets go by the roles as stated in the rulebook. (i.e. - Fighter is a Defender.)
#9 Nautilus Feb 26, 2009 21:53:40	Very briefly, without explanations, I'll award prizes for 'effective' and 'cool' in each role. Defender Effective: Fighter Cool: Swordmage Leader Effective: Warlord Cool: Warlord Controller Effective: Wizard Cool: Invoker Striker Effective: Ranger Cool: Avenger
#10 beej_silver Feb 26, 2009 22:23:30	My opinions, which are of course biased (and note that we've been heroic tier players so far): Defender: Fighter. The fact that there are soo many builds that are all effective (maybe not from a CharOp perspective, but the fighters have always been noticeable in all games I've played or DM'd) makes it the best defender for me so far. Controller: Druid. I've played it from level 1-3, and even though it deals a lot less damage than the wizard, I'm always controlling. My area burst slides everything it hits, my melee attacks reposition or slow my opponent, and even my level 1 Daily dazes and slows. Okay, so my daily only deals 1d6+Wis damage, but it is awesome on the control aspect. And I could actually last in the front lines. What other controller can say that? Leader: Tough Call. Our group prefers Warlord, although a cleric's healing spells are far more effective for my aggresive druid, not to mention the defender. And I'm yet to see the bard, shaman, and artificer in action. Striker: Rogues. In heroic, at least, they're the noticeable damage princesses. Although the sorcerer does seem like it will have an opportunity to shine.
#11 thecasualoblivion Feb 26, 2009 22:25:37	For an interesting change of pace, here's ranking all 16 classes based on role judging the first three levels(note that last place on this list doesn't mean a class sucks thanks to 4E's balance): Defender 1. Fighter--Has the most dominating mark ability. Can be built for heavy damage, multiple target control, extreme damage, or mobility, enemy control, and can pick more than one from that list. 2. Warden--Extra hp is nice, and the rolling your save at the beginning of your turn is an incredible Defender ability. Better at managing multiple enemies than Paladin and Swordmage, and can do so more consistently than the Fighter, but isn't as dominating as the Fighter. 3. Paladin--I think these guys get sold short for what they can do. Holy Strike is a very hard-hitting At-Will, and Paladins are still probably the most versatile and easy to play Defender. Divine Challenge is probably the weakest of the marks though, and Paladins have more issues with needing multiple stats than any class in the game. 4. Swordmage--These guys are fun as hell, but they just don't hit as hard as the others. They also lack the survivability boosting powers the others have. That being said, the amount of teleportation these guys can pack is amazing on a Defender, hitting multiple targets and at range has potential, and Aegis of Shielding is amazing. Striker 1. Ranger--Combines high damage, high mobility, and high consistency in an easy to use package, and no other striker can get anywhere near the versatility of the Str/Dex elven hybrid ranger. 2. Rogue--These guys can hit harder than any other class under optimal conditions, have more powerful additional effects than the Ranger, but require a lot more skill and particularly agression from the person playing it, and also depend on tactical support from the other party members where the Ranger for the most part does not. 3. Avenger--The tactics for this class are unlike any other class in the game. I think most people don't understand what this class will be like in play when we finally start playing it regularly. 4. Sorcerer--I'm going to take a gamble and say that when you factor in multiple targets, Sorcerers are going to end up dealing more damage than any other class in the game, and they should. They're blasters. My knock on them is that they are made of glass, and aren't mobile. The Striker role is dependant on getting around and participating in focus fire to eliminate enemies. The Sorcerer's lack of mobility will hinder this. 5. Barbarian--I have a feeling that Barbarians are going to a feast or famine affair. I've seen multiple Barbarians in my games, and the monsters destroy them. When they aren't hitting, it can be brutal. When you can get kills and crits though, Barbarians can put up some insane violence sprees. Barbarians end up pretty random, either going on killing sprees or getting destroyed by the enemies. 6. Warlock--I love this class, and in skilled hands it can equal the other Strikers. It is, however, the most difficult class in the game to use to its full potential. If you are just standing back and blasting, you fail. Warlocks just don't hit as hard as the other Strikers, and while you aren't a weak little kitten, you will find yourself underpowered. Where the Warlock shines is being a secondary Defender, drawing enemy fire and engaging enemies at melee range while concentrating on being a pest and harassing the enemies as opposed to dealing big damage. Leaders 1. Warlord--Warlords have some insane offensive abilities, giving other characters a free turn, free attacks, and insane boosts. Can give the entire party a ridiculous initiative boost as well. 2. Shaman--People criticize the hell out of this class, but aside from the Warlord's ability to let other people hit things, what I've seen from the Shaman is more firepower than any other Leader class. I also think the Shaman's splitting its class healing ability between two characters is going to be very interesting. 3. Cleric--They're the best healers, but their healing is overkill. They have some good abilities, and are very simple to use. They don't have the sheer ridiculousness of some of the Warlord abilities, and can't blast things as hard as the Shaman. 4. Bard--I'm judging this solely on the Int based Bard, though I've heard the Con Bard is the sexy one. These guys are kind of the Warlocks of the Leader role, lacking in raw power, but making up for it in subtle tricks. 5. Artificer--I made a level 30 Artificer and was surprised how good they really were. I still prefer the others. Controller 1. Wizard--While the Wizard's At-Wills are underwhelming, and they don't look impressive on paper, they have more of the most powerful powers in 4E than any other class. Orb of Imposition, Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, Prismatic Burst, Wall of Ice, Legion's Hold... 2. Druid--Druids have great versatility with their ability to run in and out of combat, and have more consistent controllerish abilities than the PHB Wizard. I haven't seen anything of the Druid that matches the high end output of the Wizard's best abilities though. 3. Invoker--Simpler and more straightforward than the other two, and more powerful on the surface, but the subtle tricks are where the real power in the Wizard class is.
#12 Dragon9 Feb 26, 2009 22:55:54	Personally, I don't find any of them 'Best in Role." Maybe that's wishy washy, but each of the classes have different flavor and handle their role duties a little differently. That means the play style of one class will be vastly different than another and the effectiveness of the class will be greatly determined by the player playing it. A barbarian, ranger, rogue, warlock, sorcerer and avenger are all strikers. They all play differently and are optimal in different circumstances. Best in Role really comes down to how much fun a particular person has playing that class. So in effect my official answer is: None of them. Asa side note, I don't buy the whole Wizard being outclassed by the Invoker or Druid. I've kicked all the tires and don't feel the Wizard is as bad as everyone says.
#13 ausolion Feb 26, 2009 23:36:15	I think all these things depend on what's already in a party and what the situation is. As far as a defender, a fighter just seems the best all around, but when you are fighting that big solo guy, Shielding Swordmage keeps everyone alive longer. The solo always gets a -2 and when he hits anyone else it's like they have damage reduction, plus the swordmage could use transposing lunge to teleport him away from your comrades and take damage as well. Same for some other aegis of shielding corrusponding powers. I only know a lot about one controller.....Wizard. Invoker is only up to lvl 3 right now. Striker: Alongside a warlord, I like rogues. They can get combat advantage easily and often and with that and a rapier, they deal the most damage consistently. Leader: Warlords give less healing, but allow everyone to take the enemy down very quickly and efficiently.
#14 GMforPowergamers Feb 26, 2009 23:36:52	Controler: Wizard so far...but the invoker has potential... Defender: Swordmage...ageis of sheilding is way to good to pass up...to actualy negate damage rocks... Leader: Tac Lord...commander strike is good...the action point aura is awsome...and landing attacks is just plain to important in this edtion... Striker: Ranger...
#15 anubis_reynard Feb 27, 2009 0:48:26	Defender: Warden. OMG Warden. Screw damage, fighters like to pretend they're strikers, anyway. Warden is to defender what the ranger is is to Striker. Minor: Bloodcut armor (Resist 10), Free mark everyone around you, Move (and provoke OAs) to another groop of enemies, Second Wind (and boost the strength of your Wildblood marks), Action Point (w/action surge) Burst of Earth's Fury (so they cannot shift), HBO Weight of Earth. (slow so they can't get away from you)
#16 akumadaimyo Feb 27, 2009 1:37:40	Just have to wonder though. Are people choosing what is really the best or what just does a lot of damage or can take a lot of damage in true video game style fashion? I'm not sure on most classes but I still like the Rogue for Striker. I'm not sure if anyone does more damage since I haven't looked at the classes as much but I like the skillset.
#17 ausolion Feb 27, 2009 1:37:58	Defender: Warden. OMG Warden. Screw damage, fighters like to pretend they're strikers, anyway. Warden is to defender what the ranger is is to Striker. Minor: Bloodcut armor (Resist 10), Free mark everyone around you, Move (and provoke OAs) to another groop of enemies, Second Wind (and boost the strength of your Wildblood marks), Action Point (w/action surge) Burst of Earth's Fury (so they cannot shift), HBO Weight of Earth. (slow so they can't get away from you) Well, a fighter can mark any amount of enemies with a little multiclassing. Give him a burst 3 and wait to get something like thunderwave as an at-will power through paragon multiclassing and he's a defending beast.
#18 cadfan Feb 27, 2009 2:19:45	The warden is pretty amazing at locking things down. Give it a reach weapon, and it just gets crazy... The warden's big weakness is that monsters it marks tend to shift away and attack its allies. But, unlike the Fighter, his retaliatory strike when marked foes attack his allies is a Weapon attack, not a special attack that only works against adjacent enemies. With a reach weapon, they can shift, but they can't attack without invoking an attack that is regular damage, but versus reflex, and causes the target to grant combat advantage.
#19 salla Feb 27, 2009 8:41:33	Controller: At this point, I'm going to go Wizard. It's hard to deny the power of the Orb. Defender: Fighter. I don't like divine classes, and the Paladin isn't very sticky. Swordmage isn't bad, and the Warden just doesn't get my attention. Leader: Warlord. Again, don't like divine classes, bard is too goofy, shaman mechanics look too cumbersome. Striker: Ranger. Rogue is too situational, Warlock is more of a controller, Barbarian should have been martial, Avenger doesn't grab me (not into the dark anti-hero thing).
#20 toshihito Feb 27, 2009 10:09:56	This thread is not a good way to measure anything at all. People are basing their judgement off of their experiences with each, and not taking into account people have different playstyles and strengths/weaknesses of being a human. People will naturally believe when they see someone excel at something that they obviously must be the best at that role. I.E. Take a person who plays a Warlord really well in one group, and another person plays a Shaman really well in another group. They both do their jobs well. Of course people in those groups are going to think that their leader is better at their role than the other. Just because someone playing class X does not play the class to their full potential does not make the class inferior to class Y. Plus people aren't taking into account that classes do their jobs differently. Once again, it comes back to playstles and preferences, there really is no right or wrong answer to what is the best. You can give the most optimized DPR Ranger to the worst Ranger player and watch the so called 'best DPR' fail hardcore. Does that make the Ranger class bad just because that player played it bad? I'll leave it at that.
#21 thecasualoblivion Feb 27, 2009 10:17:14	Best of role should be measured by the person playing the class, not abilities. Classes are worked on to be balanced mechanically for a reason. The person playing a character has more to do with how powerful they are then class choice. This is true. But when you take two classes and put them in the hands of the same player, you can compare a bit. In the end though, what gets lost in a topic like this is how small those differences in power level really are. Except for the Fighter, since Fighter is god.
#22 cadfan Feb 27, 2009 10:46:20	What also gets lost is that some characters are more focused in their role than others. For example, the paladin probably doesn't defend as well as the fighter, but it leads almost as well as a cleric.
#23 androojoe Feb 27, 2009 11:12:46	I don't usually reply much, though I enjoy a good discussion. I have played a bunch of the classes at this point and honestly, its more about understanding how the class fills its role. Players that do that can make any class amazing. Players that don't can make you want to scream. That said here are my thoughts on the "Best of Role". Defender: Battlerager Fighter. Why? Defending is all about positioning, and battleragers that don't foresake their shields can provoke those attacks of opportunity with little fear. The one downside is that enemies that get wise may peel off and put the hurt on your friends. Then again, if you are letting something like that happen, you weren't in proper position were you. My personal favorite: Avenging Paladin. Leader: Valorous Bard. Why? The only thing better than being a battlerager? Turning your party into mini battleragers. Even with the little we have seen these guys put up temporary hit points on all of your party members. The best damage is the stuff you never take. Additionally, passing out negatives and forcing movement shows that this guy is tapping into what has made the warlord so cool. My personal favorite: Resourceful Warlord. Striker: Brutal Scoundrel Rogue. Why? This is a touchy subject, as all of the rangers out there are undoubtedly in complete disagreement. However, a properly built one of these rogues has a unique feature to any other class, he doesn't ever miss. Take a look and see how many people have the ability to constantly be attacking reflex with a +4 proficiency bonus. Frankly, a little bit of positioning and learning to stealth and, unlike your friend the ranger, you don't have to rely on those damage on miss abilities to keep your potential up. My personal favorite: Scourge Warlock. Controller: Wildshape Druid. Why? Control folks, control. We haven't seen all of their powers just yet, but we know where they are headed by looking at the control they have and the controllerish features of their defender counterpart, the warden. In a game where extra actions can decide battles, the controller with the most action denial is your ace in the hole. My personal favorite: War Wizard. All this said, I could rewrite this with different classes and still be able to justify it. That's the parity we all love so much.