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Apologies if someone's highlighted it already but I didn't see it on the first page of posts:
Wizards' Gencon Schedule wrote:
and beyonf lvl 30, that'd be great, never liked the epic destinies anway they all end up as either dead or worst, like dropping a mythal over some dumb city.
well what if you live in a city that already has one, what good is it then.....
I agree with Met, though. It could just be a panel about figuring out how to play a meaningful game at 30th level. Because it's not like you want the game to end right as they hit 30th level; PCs would probably want to muck around with creation for a little while...
Best plan one of my PCs has had: Once his dwarf paladin, Morbier, would hit level 30, and become a demigod follower of Moradin, his next PC would be a cleric of that character.
The 4th tier, Deity tier, is all about traveling to different planes and worlds and finding adventure where we can. Wanna release Tharizdun and destroy him for good? Wanna help him destroy everything? Wanna obliterate the demonlords and archdevils and end the bloodwar for good? Wanna lead a massive army of baator and abyssal demons to the gates of the gods?
Wanna make your own world and watch/rule over it?
It will be interesting to see how wotc handles additional level 30 play options and if they do decide to break the limit, how they would handle another tier of power.
Thanks for posting this!
Best plan one of my PCs has had: Once his dwarf paladin, Morbier, would hit level 30, and become a demigod follower of Moradin, his next PC would be a cleric of that character.
THAT is how I handled things in older editions and will continue to do so in 4th. PC's who get converted into NPC's and the next generation of PC's can gain benefits from their original work. So maybe when the next dwarf cleric hits a certain level, Morbier will gift his cleric with his old armor or weapon. There are thousands of ways new PC's can benefit from the evolved npc's and you don't even need to hit level 30 for this to happen.
And I'm going to say that I hope that they aren't going in that direction as I feel it would end up devalueing too mcuh of the released material as we end up with things like a level 43 "true Orcus" and level 38 Balors. Epic was included in the the PHB1 this time so that they wouldn't have to extend the levels, and frankly I think they should stick with their guns in this instance.
and beyonf lvl 30, that'd be great, never liked the epic destinies anway they all end up as either dead or worst, like dropping a mythal over some dumb city.
Assuming they made a 31-40 tier(which I still doubt they will do), then your epic destiny would still end up kicking in. It would just kick in potentially ten levels later. The Epic Destinies are simply how your character retires after you stop playing him(assuming he survives). And it should be mentioned that most of the immortality descriptions are presented as possibilities and you can surely change them to better fit your character if you so desire.
I think this seminar will be about continuing a campaign in which the characters have already reached level 30.
Because when your character has transcended humanity and killed one or more gods, there's still a heap of meaningful stories left to tell, apparently.
"One down, eighteen to go."
I say finally. The game is perfectly able to handle at least another tier, and if there is a market for it, they should do it.
Every 250000 exp you get, you can pick one of these and gain it:
- power of class you have access to
- feat (thus also skill)
- single ability score
And you can also retrain something you already have as though you gained a level.
I would have probably houseruled that in, if I had players get to 30 and there was still plot left to tell, or they still wanted to play their chars. I'd keep track of post-30 characters by the number of 'augments' they have. (30+4, 30+7, etc.) My system does not inherently balance 30+x players against each other, so maybe Wizards has found a way to do something similar and maintain at least a semblance of balance. ...Sembalance.
Much beyond level 30, the game would have to change so much that you wouldn't be playing D&D anymore.
This wasn't true when 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition grognards said it, and it's not true when you say it.
I'm all for post game content such as what you used to get in Everquest before they simply raised level caps each expansion.
Getting nifty powers or bonuses related to whatever your quests were and your character's existing ability set.
For example a level 30 Fey Origin character getting more Fey Powers, that function perhaps off of a similar mechanic to Magic Item Daily powers. I'm all good for something like that.
You know something original and cool all at the same time. Not simply.
"Raizorz teh levelz!"
You know something original and cool all at the same time. Not simply.
"Raizorz teh levelz!"
Honestly I think the ONLY reason people don't want post-30 level play is because they are afraid it will be too broken. And that's just a terrible reason not to want something. There is no reason not to want them to at least TRY.
Course i was a huge fan of epic levels in 3.X being higher and higher. I loved the spells you could make, like Nail to the Sky and Vengeful Gaze of God.
I'd rather they get the game hammered out in what exists first than simply start tacking on more ontop of it.
This wasn't true when 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition grognards said it, and it's not true when you say it.
I completely agree.
Right off the top of my head and the most obvious adventure ideas for a "deity" tier is the far realm. The place where even gods lose their minds. If ever there was a place where even epic wasn't quite powerful enough to hack it, its the far realm.
Wanna go outside? Hit level 31 and delve into the most powerful adventures possible. Combat foes the size of an entire galaxy, whos power dwarves a billion suns. Step outside creation's boundries and experience what lies beyond logical reason. Master a realm even the gods themselves fear.
Sounds fun.;)
Flipguarder: well they'd have to fix normal epic first :P *as it is Normal Epic from what I gather is pretty broken, just not nearly as bad as 3e was*
I'd rather they get the game hammered out in what exists first than simply start tacking on more ontop of it.
I don't think enough people have spent enough time with epic play to know how broken it is and most people claim its broken based simply on hear-say. I doubt its possible to foresee every issue, so any game will always have aspects that are broken and that should never prevent the game from evolving and developing higher scaled content.
You never know, maybe the higher level content will fix older issues of balance, or maybe it will break the game in half. We won't know until they release it. Doomsaying does no one any good.
This wasn't true when 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition grognards said it, and it's not true when you say it.
Actually, it was. Above 20th level did not work well in 3rd edition. It was a general extension of the "anything above 12th level had severe playability issues" problem, but cranked up to 11.
More than 30 levels is a bad idea. Why? Because, frankly, epic already receives less support than the other tiers. Look at the number of epic monsters compared to heroic and paragon tier ones, and the decreasing amounts of feats, ect. This all makes sense, of course; 100% of people use heroic tier stuff, but a lower percentage use paragon and a lower percentage still epic. Something which is beyond epic is going to be used by EVEN FEWER people, and therefore will be mostly useless.
Post-epic junk will be mostly unusable.
MOREOVER, all the classes are designed to top out at level 30. Adding another tier means adding another tier of powers for every class.
I really would rather not have something like this.
If the archdevil of the second hell is only a level 28 solo, I just don't see any room to add a whole new race of run-of-the-mill level 34 devils just because the PCs need them to get enough encounters to make annother 10 levels.
Every fight would basically be against the "cosmic entity of the week" with no more troops left to fight inbetween because all common troops made for that level range would cause the inconsistency of being too powerfull compared to their masters who have already been published with a level 30 limit for PCs in mind
Actually, it was. Above 20th level did not work well in 3rd edition. It was a general extension of the "anything above 12th level had severe playability issues" problem, but cranked up to 11.
More than 30 levels is a bad idea. Why? Because, frankly, epic already receives less support than the other tiers. Look at the number of epic monsters compared to heroic and paragon tier ones, and the decreasing amounts of feats, ect. This all makes sense, of course; 100% of people use heroic tier stuff, but a lower percentage use paragon and a lower percentage still epic. Something which is beyond epic is going to be used by EVEN FEWER people, and therefore will be mostly useless.
Post-epic junk will be mostly unusable.
MOREOVER, all the classes are designed to top out at level 30. Adding another tier means adding another tier of powers for every class.
I really would rather not have something like this.
Not only this, but the meta-plot expectations of the game would have to be tossed out. You fight small armies in heroic, world ending threats in paragon, and begin hacking your way through the ranks of the most powerful entities in the game. Look at the way epic monsters are done, lots of elites and solos. This is probably done because its hard to imagine foot-soldiers powerful enough to kill most armies (which is the case with epic level monsters vs. heroic ones). Can you imagine what kind of zany threats would have to be concocted to be a threat to level 31+ characters? They've already most likely killed either a god or a god-like entity? What's next? There just aren't enough powerful entities to keep a party amused for ten levels unless you just go on a God-stomping rampage, and then what do you do when you've killed the lot of them by level 37? Go back and initiate a battle-royal against the whole of the Abyss? Take down the Nine Hells Thermopylae style? What do you do once that's done and your still at level 39? What kind of plot would require you to do this? There's plenty of mythology and literature to justify the adventures you can have during Epic Tier, but I can't really recall a story where the Five Man Band needed to stomp 60% of the life out of the cosmos or defeat the whole of Hell and Tartarus in the course of a week. It just doesn't seem interesting or heroic.
Actually, it was. Above 20th level did not work well in 3rd edition. It was a general extension of the "anything above 12th level had severe playability issues" problem, but cranked up to 11.
More than 30 levels is a bad idea. Why? Because, frankly, epic already receives less support than the other tiers. Look at the number of epic monsters compared to heroic and paragon tier ones, and the decreasing amounts of feats, ect. This all makes sense, of course; 100% of people use heroic tier stuff, but a lower percentage use paragon and a lower percentage still epic. Something which is beyond epic is going to be used by EVEN FEWER people, and therefore will be mostly useless.
Post-epic junk will be mostly unusable.
MOREOVER, all the classes are designed to top out at level 30. Adding another tier means adding another tier of powers for every class.
I really would rather not have something like this.
Not if the powers from the base classes, paragons and epics were all replaces with deity level powers. Plus plenty of people probably play at epic tier once they know the rules. There are only so many goblins, orcs, young dragons and even giants you can kill before you get bored.
But even if it is only a minor group who regularly uses the material, there is still a market for it. People would buy it regardless of how often they used it.
The biggest problem I see with a uber-epic tier is that they already cramped to many of the movers and shakers of the cosmos under the supposed level 30 ceiling.
If the archdevil of the second hell is only a level 28 solo, I just don't see any room to add a whole new race of run-of-the-mill level 34 devils just because the PCs need them to get enough encounters to make annother 10 levels.
Every fight would basically be against the "cosmic entity of the week" with no more troops left to fight inbetween because all common troops made for that level range would cause the inconsistency of being too powerfull compared to their masters who have already been published with a level 30 limit for PCs in mind
There are always bigger, stronger monsters to fight. Which is why I used the far realm for example. Just because there is nothing existing right now that could support super powerful characters beyong epic, doesn't mean there won't be.
There could be a whole other aspect of the game we don't know about, with beings far more powerful than the gods.
Think of it like this. What if the gods worship something? What would those beings be like?
Anyways, the far realm gives us plenty of options to play with for a 4th tier beyond just the icky gross monsters. For all we know, thats just the top layer of the outside. The planet sized monsters in the far realm could be like goblins to the true powers that await. (not in size but as examples)
Actually, it was. Above 20th level did not work well in 3rd edition. It was a general extension of the "anything above 12th level had severe playability issues" problem, but cranked up to 11.
More than 30 levels is a bad idea. Why? Because, frankly, epic already receives less support than the other tiers. Look at the number of epic monsters compared to heroic and paragon tier ones, and the decreasing amounts of feats, ect. This all makes sense, of course; 100% of people use heroic tier stuff, but a lower percentage use paragon and a lower percentage still epic. Something which is beyond epic is going to be used by EVEN FEWER people, and therefore will be mostly useless.
Post-epic junk will be mostly unusable.
MOREOVER, all the classes are designed to top out at level 30. Adding another tier means adding another tier of powers for every class.
I really would rather not have something like this.
Why does this have anything to do with D&D not being D&D? Further, if you don't want it, don't buy it. If WotC research shows general interest in higher-than-epic play (which I admit I don't know that it does, but I'm thinking hypothetically here), it would be irresponsible to advise against it. Bridges would be crossed as the design process goes on, but a self-contained book about adventuring in a fourth tier would at least greatly interest me an my group.
Zany (I agree that that's what they are, Nyronus) threats include the Far Realm getting opened (possibly through a PC boner), some dick releasing all the primordials (all of them), the PCs being misotheists and deciding that the gods suck and should die, etc. Epic PCs can't handle any of these, but I bet some people wouldn't mind giving it a shot.
some dick releasing all the primordials (all of them)
Something like this could also be used as a way explaining why the god are all of a sudden all lv.40+ instead of lv.30+. Perhaps a large portion of their power was being used just to keep primordials bound. Now with the prisons broken the gods are able to reconsolidated that power to achieve a strength they have not possessed since the dawn war. Stronger gods and the release of so many primordials could also mean that these masters could confer greater power on their servants as well, thus stronger angels and archons as well.
Perhaps a revived Tharizdun could mean a new surge of power within the abyss making all the demons within stronger than ever. Meanwhile Asmodeus uses the power of all the souls he has trapped within hell to break the curse placed upon him by his former divine master, allowing him to finally achive TRUE divine ascension and in the process strengthen all the other devils as well.
Sometimes instead of looking for stronger powers to challenge super-epic PCs, it can work just as well to create events that change the very fundamental balance of power in the multiverse.
A Deific campaign could be augmented by the occasional "slay a rival deity" fight. Or perhaps the PCs could manifest aspects of themselves and take on entire opposing armies! I imagine they'd also have to contend with groups of upstart DMNPCs trying to slay them. And of course, there are indeed the Far Realms.
I'm all for another development to the game, even if I don't plan on using it.
Something like this could also be used as a way explaining why the god are all of a sudden all lv.40+ instead of lv.30+. Perhaps a large portion of their power was being used just to keep primordials bound. Now with the prisons broken the gods are able to reconsolidated that power to achieve a strength they have not possessed since the dawn war. Stronger gods and the release of so many primordials could also mean that these masters could confer greater power on their servants as well, thus stronger angels and archons as well.
Perhaps a revived Tharizdun could mean a new surge of power within the abyss making all the demons within stronger than ever. Meanwhile Asmodeus uses the power of all the souls he has trapped within hell to break the curse placed upon him by his former divine master, allowing him to finally achive TRUE divine ascension and in the process strengthen all the other devils as well.
Sometimes instead of looking for stronger powers to challenge super-epic PCs, it can work just as well to create events that change the very fundamental balance of power in the multiverse.
Yeah, but doing so would make the mm1 and 2 practically useless for the write ups on the things mentioned. It would also make the core game more linear, which isn't such a good thing.
Not if the powers from the base classes, paragons and epics were all replaces with deity level powers. Plus plenty of people probably play at epic tier once they know the rules. There are only so many goblins, orcs, young dragons and even giants you can kill before you get bored.
People predominantly have played, historically, at what would now be defined as "heroic" and "paragon" tiers. This is why there is the most stuff directed at those tiers.
But even if it is only a minor group who regularly uses the material, there is still a market for it. People would buy it regardless of how often they used it.
Except not. Seriously, I don't know if I've ever met anyone who actually owned the ELH for 3.x.
If you're never going to use it, most people won't buy it.
There could be a whole other aspect of the game we don't know about, with beings far more powerful than the gods.
Think of it like this. What if the gods worship something? What would those beings be like?
Utter garbage.
Anyways, the far realm gives us plenty of options to play with for a 4th tier beyond just the icky gross monsters. For all we know, thats just the top layer of the outside. The planet sized monsters in the far realm could be like goblins to the true powers that await. (not in size but as examples)
Again, bad writing. And the further it is away, the fewer people will care about it, and the more contrived it is, the fewer people will care about it.
People predominantly have played, historically, at what would now be defined as "heroic" and "paragon" tiers. This is why there is the most stuff directed at those tiers.
Except not. Seriously, I don't know if I've ever met anyone who actually owned the ELH for 3.x.
If you're never going to use it, most people won't buy it.
Funny, practically everyone who has 3e books that I know has the ELH.
Utter garbage.
Maybe in your opinion but its plausable. We did have overdeities in older editions after all. Nothing say even overdeity is the top most rank of the divine orders. Things never used don't go in the books, so maybe we will eventually be introduced to old concepts never used before.
Again, bad writing. And the further it is away, the fewer people will care about it, and the more contrived it is, the fewer people will care about it.
I disagree completely. wotc could release a book on the far realm to give us more information on it and that would solve all the problems. As for people not enjoying it? Ever here of call of the cthulhu, thats very popular and basically in line with what the far realm is all about. Madness.;)
Bolded parts are mine.
I'll recycle the most pertainent point, that "beyond 30th level for your campaign" =/= "beyond 30th level for your character". Wizards seems to have no intention of allowing characters to proceed (within player control) beyond 30th level in 4E. This is just the new way of things. Now a third-party might make rules and content for this sort of thing, but Wizards already has their say: Epic Destinies. What this statement most likely refers to is taking your campaign world and continuing the story with new characters.
Honestly I think the ONLY reason people don't want post-30 level play is because they are afraid it will be too broken. And that's just a terrible reason not to want something. There is no reason not to want them to at least TRY.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea simply because playing gods who do godly stuff isn't what I came to D&D for, and I feel that that kind of story would be better served by whole new mechanics and therefore a whole new game. There's issues of faith, followers, and domains that there's no easy way of attaching to the core D&D rules, there's the issue of 4E being a combat-focused system and having a cosmology with very few meaningful enemies to fight past level 30, and there's the fact that deities are by their nature fiercely individualistic with personal spheres of influence and archetypal and intractable motivations, which sits poorly with the idea of a multi-player group-focused game format.
I also have problems in that the existing three tiers are structured as three dramatic acts; Epic Tier and the Epic Destiny are intended as the close of your character's story and the final fate of your character. The existence of post-30 play undermines that design and creates expectations among players that aren't necessarily consistent with a satisfying campaign finale.
Wanting to keep playing past level 30 isn't about options; it's about a fundamental failure to understand the nature of drama and a difficulty in letting go and accepting change. 4th Edition is better off staying focused on what it does well, rather than trying to expand its focus into territory it's not well designed to handle.
If Wizards have fantastic ideas for a game about post-mortality, please release those ideas as a new product and new game system and if it looks good I'll buy a copy. But don't dilute 4E with it.
Its still fun I hear, but I'v heard the lack of further progression complaint often.
Well the problem with the current level cap is that leveling up is one of the best rewards we get. It even says so in the phb. So unless we have some new way to better our characters and something new to spend xp on, its not as fun to continue to play at 30th level.
Its still fun I hear, but I'v heard the lack of further progression complaint often.
Wouldn't extending the level cap create the exact same problem, only level 40 instead? Or level 50? Or level 60? Or whatever level you decide to put the new cap at? 4th edition isn't designed to be infinitly scalable(due to the nature of powers), so extending the level cap won't solve this problem because there will still be a level cap.
Wouldn't extending the level cap create the exact same problem, only level 40 instead? Or level 50? Or level 60? Or whatever level you decide to put the new cap at? 4th edition isn't designed to be infinitly scalable(due to the nature of powers), so extending the level cap won't solve this problem because there will still be a level cap.
A level cap is a problem. The level caps in older editions mostly got tossed out in my circles. 3.5 offered math on how to easily progress the level scale beyond 40th, and with multiclassing 3+ classes + prestiges +epics, the idea of a level cap was silly. (oh look, I'm 114th level, how did that happen.)
But regardless of a level cap, we need ways to improve our characters at level 30, say by gaining more XP and puting that XP to use purchasing new skills. No replacing old skills mind you, but purchasing new ones to use.
Maybe not even new skills, but some way to use the xp we earn and some new form of reward for maxed characters.
A level cap is a problem. The level caps in older editions mostly got tossed out in my circles. 3.5 offered math on how to easily progress the level scale beyond 40th, and with multiclassing 3+ classes + prestiges +epics, the idea of a level cap was silly. (oh look, I'm 114th level, how did that happen.)
But regardless of a level cap, we need ways to improve our characters at level 30, say by gaining more XP and puting that XP to use purchasing new skills. No replacing old skills mind you, but purchasing new ones to use.
Maybe not even new skills, but some way to use the xp we earn and some new form of reward for maxed characters.
Why would you want to continue your character at level 30? Your character's story is over. He's transcended mortality. He's reached the end of the Hero's Journey and it's time to stat up someone new and start again at a lower level, or move on to a new system.
It's not like an MMO where being at the level cap comes with visible status symbols, easy transportation, and guild responsibilities. There's no social metagame; you get to hang out with your friends just as much at level 1 as at level 30. Roll a new dude and start a new campaign.
I never understood this.
I know that a level cap for D&D won't last long. There is a reason D&D went to AD&D in the first edition of this game, and why Humans were more powerful with unlimited levels while the other races had limits with all but one or two classes.
If it doesn't end up happening now, levels beyond 30 will happen later, and more usable ED's will come also. A level cap is one of the bad ideas that blight an otherwise good product in this new edition. (The Parcel System is worse, though)
Wouldn't extending the level cap create the exact same problem, only level 40 instead? Or level 50? Or level 60? Or whatever level you decide to put the new cap at? 4th edition isn't designed to be infinitly scalable(due to the nature of powers), so extending the level cap won't solve this problem because there will still be a level cap.
It's not just about setting the level cap higher, that would indeed be meaningless and arbitrary, it's about removing the level cap entirely.
4E's power system is indeed one of the trickier parts about extended play. Printing expansive lists of super-epic powers really wouldn't be an option, but a set of rules for enhancing existing powers might work.
The new Monster Builder could even be said to be a sign that WotC intends to provide at least minimal support for super-epic play as it allows DMs to design monsters well over Lv.40.
Why would you want to continue your character at level 30? Your character's story is over. He's transcended mortality. He's reached the end of the Hero's Journey and it's time to stat up someone new and start again at a lower level, or move on to a new system.
It's not like an MMO where being at the level cap comes with visible status symbols, easy transportation, and guild responsibilities. There's no social metagame; you get to hang out with your friends just as much at level 1 as at level 30. Roll a new dude and start a new campaign.
For the record I was playing super epic 2e games before the first mmo computer game was ever invented. I'm not a fan of mmo games in the least.
I think I already mentioned why I would want to pass 30th level. There is more content to be explored and a level cap is only a restriction. They can release new content to support deity leveled play easily without it devaluing the current products.
But if they don't add a 4th tier, they could atleast add in new reward types for level capped characters who are robbed of one of the most valuable rewards. Levels. Our xp goes to waste and we gain nothing new in terms of character progression.
For the record I was playing super epic 2e games before the first mmo computer game was ever invented. I'm not a fan of mmo games in the least.
I think I already mentioned why I would want to pass 30th level. There is more content to be explored and a level cap is only a restriction. They can release new content to support deity leveled play easily without it devaluing the current products.
But if they don't add a 4th tier, they could atleast add in new reward types for level capped characters who are robbed of one of the most valuable rewards. Levels. Our xp goes to waste and we gain nothing new in terms of character progression.
Sorry, wasn't meaning to imply you were coming from an MMO background, I was just pre-emptively separating my argument from the many good reasons that people continue to play MMOs after hitting max level.
But - maybe this is the issue - are you playing D&D primarily for the purpose of seeing the numbers go up on your character sheet, or for the purpose of enjoying an well-told adventure? Because post-30 play is all but a foregone conclusion if this is a game about stat-gain, but completely inimicable to mature storytelling.
It's the same inability to understand that stories have to end that's led to such wonderful products as the resurrection of Jason Todd, The Fox And The Hound 2, and Casablanca 2: Casbalanca Harder.
The only reason that your character's meaningful is because he's on a journey. The only reason that journey is meaningful is because it has a destination, after which the journey stops. If your DM can't bring you to the end of that journey within 30 levels he's woefully incompetent as a DM.
If you must play the same character - hey, there are any number of stories about being gods cast down to mortality and having to win their way back to heavens. De-level your character to level 1 (or 11, or whatever), chuck out all his gear but have him keep his personality and history and start all over again.
I'm in the boat that thinks that the seminar will be about dealing with ED Quests, continuing a campaign with the new party after the old (first) party has become part of the lore, and how to handle playing a game at level 30 where you have few foes that pose a challenge and the party's actions will very likely impact not just the World but the entire cosmology.
Sorry, wasn't meaning to imply you were coming from an MMO background, I was just pre-emptively separating my argument from the many good reasons that people continue to play MMOs after hitting max level.
No worries, I wasn't offended and I'm a bit tired so don't read into anything. Its all good (as they say).
But - maybe this is the issue - are you playing D&D primarily for the purpose of seeing the numbers go up on your character sheet, or for the purpose of enjoying an well-told adventure? Because post-30 play is all but a foregone conclusion if this is a game about stat-gain, but completely inimicable to mature storytelling.
I play for the story, the encounters and ability to pound on monsters, the rewards and the rules. I'm less concerned with level progression and more concerned with character progression.
It's the same inability to understand that stories have to end that's led to such wonderful products as the resurrection of Jason Todd, The Fox And The Hound 2, and Casablanca 2: Casbalanca Harder.
I'm all for stories ending and retiring characters, but thats only when I am ready to stop using the character. Stories are never an issue, campaigns can last for ever and there is an endless supply of creativity in my circles. Its the lack of further character progression thats the bother.
Monsters get stronger even if characters don't. There is no level cap for monsters.
The only reason that your character's meaningful is because he's on a journey. The only reason that journey is meaningful is because it has a destination, after which the journey stops. If your DM can't bring you to the end of that journey within 30 levels he's woefully incompetent as a DM.
Thats not the issue at all. We simply like to play more with our characters than most I guess. Some people actually enjoy playing with the same character for years and years. But we play so much that hitting the level cap for us only takes a few months tops.
If you must play the same character - hey, there are any number of stories about being gods cast down to mortality and having to win their way back to heavens. De-level your character to level 1 (or 11, or whatever), chuck out all his gear but have him keep his personality and history and start all over again.
Hmm, thats not an option for me or most of my people. We didn't bust our butts to lose our work. We don't want to go backwards with out characters, we might as well start new ones if thats what we have to look forward to.
Bolded parts are mine as I'm lazy.:P
But - maybe this is the issue - are you playing D&D primarily for the purpose of seeing the numbers go up on your character sheet, or for the purpose of enjoying an well-told adventure? Because post-30 play is all but a foregone conclusion if this is a game about stat-gain, but completely inimicable to mature storytelling.
Yes, stories are about journey's, but how long that journey lasts is variable. The story that is any given D&D game should only end when the players and DM feel it is time, not because of some arbitrary game mechanic.
Furthermore, even if a group of friends only wants rules for Lv.30+ play so they can keep writing progressively larger numbers on there character sheets, is that really so bad? If that's how they get their jollies should any of us say they're playing wrong?
I'm not trying to say that WotC should revamp their entire product line to support super-epic play, but a single book (or maybe even an annual series) that provides guidelines on how to adapt the existent mechanics for endless levels wouldn't be so bad. Even for those with no interest in buying such a product I don't think it should be that much of a problem, given the number of folks I've seen complain about not being able to afford WotC monthly release schedule as is.
My question is why are you against them RELEASING post-30 play, nobody is telling you you have to play it. It just seems childish to me to not want it released. It's like not wanting a video game to come out, its just unreasonable. If you don't play it, it doesn't affect you.
See the thing is, they have to do it in a way that does NOT render older material obsolete. We can't buff up existing monsters and gods in print. They can provide rules on how to do it, but if they print it out, it will make the game more linear, which isn't good for everyone.
Buffing rules and suggestions on how to progress the level if removing the cap can add more enjoyment to the game would be fine. Providing new powers or ways to increase existing powers would be fine. New rewards to take the place of level gain at cap would be of great use.
These things can be done without hurting the game. But I understand what some people wish to avoid and thats the MM1 and MM2, PHB1 and PHB2 becoming useless. We don't, after all, want a 4.5.:D
[edit]
at the same time they could release a 4th tier and include new content that has nothing to do with things from older editions or current material at all. There are plenty of new things they could do in terms of powers, monsters, items, rituals and areas to explore, most of which could come from the far realm, but not limited to that area.
The astral sea and elemental chaos, are big places after all. Not everything is mapped out or explored.
Furthermore, even if a group of friends only wants rules for Lv.30+ play so they can keep writing progressively larger numbers on there character sheets, is that really so bad? If that's how they get their jollies should any of us say they're playing wrong?
Homer: Mr. Burns, you're the richest man I know.
Burns: Yes, but I'd trade it all for a little more.
...
A four hour session covers approximately three encounters. A level is (per the DMG) about ten encounters. Playing level 1 to 30 in a single class is therefore around 400 hours of play, or around 17 days of uninterrupted play without sleep. With 20 classes and approximately four builds in each class you're looking at 3.7 years of continuous play without sleep to experience all the available content, not counting the variation that comes from different paragon paths, epic destinies and weapon selections, and assuming that classes play more or less similarly regardless of which race you choose (which is plainly not true).
3.7 years of play without sleep. That's a ridiculous figure any way you look at it; to claim that post-30 play is necessitated by any shortage of content is absurd.
The issue with wanting post-30 in order to see "the numbers keep going up" is that it's asking for just a little bit more. It's not an appetite that's capable of being satiated. If 400 hours of play in a single class hasn't burned out your enjoyment of numbers going up, then what will? How many supplements do we need to release before it's enough? When do you not need just a little bit more?
It's the same argument for letting go of your character. Sure, players and DMs should let go of their character when they're good and ready. But on the other hand, if they're not good and ready after 400 hours then it's a reasonable thing to say that they're not ever going to be ready, and that's not something that a design studio can address. That's not about a shortage of content, that's about a difficulty in letting go. D&D doesn't need to grow as a game; the player needs to grow as a person.
Anyway, that's my feeling. It's not going to hurt me if these rules come out - they're not going to come and burn down my house or anything, or hold me at gunpoint until I use them - but I think they're misguided and the effort could be better spent elsewhere. In the end, the worst that will happen from post 30 rules is that I'll lose a little respect for Wizards of the Coast - which is fine. Wizards needs many things, but I doubt my respect is high on their list.
Oh, btw, I don't know how you figured it takes 4 hours to do 3 encounters. I'v done and seen 10 encounters done in 5 hours and thats with role play involved.;) 1, 8 hour day gets low levels around 3-4 level gains over here.
How is enjoying playing your character a character flaw?
It's not; and I should also say I'm speaking in the hypothetical and rhetorical here. Please don't read anything as an attack on you personally as you're obviously very literate and intelligent as evidenced by your posts.
But what I'm saying is that there's a difference between enjoying playing your character, and having difficulty letting go of your character. The first is something that Wizards can help you with via supplements and expansions; the second is not.
Level 1 to 30 at the recommended DMG speed is 400 hours of play, give or take depending on how much you actually get done in four hours of play. That's, I believe, longer than the longest dramatic TV series ever to run on Western television.
If you can't, in 400 hours, explore every aspect of your character worth exploring, and bring his personal arc to a satisfying and appropriate ending, then we're not talking about you continuing to enjoy your character, we're talking about a difficulty in letting go. And that's fine, that doesn't result in you failing any test of internal worth, but it's not something that Wizards should be attempting to validate through a series of awkward post-30 play supplements.
They have X design resources and those resources should be spent on enriching the existing 400 hours - and, realistically speaking, focusing on the first 100 hours - and not tacking additional hours of dubious value onto the end.
EDIT (to respond to your edit): Assuming that of your three encounters, two are level appropriate combat encounters, and that you're running with five players, then three encounters in four hours is a fair estimate. Four in four might also be reasonable and five is believable though tricky. 4E combat takes time. If you're using speed-combat rules or running with less players or not having combats at all then sure, you're going to go faster; but then, you're not playing the game as-written. If you're running through combat fast because you're homebrewing, then again I'm not sure that that's something Wizards can help you with, other than pointing at the rulebooks and saying, "It lasts longer if you do it our way."
There is no reason not to want them to at least TRY.
This is incorrect, there is at least one reason: limited resources.
WotC doesn't have an unlimited budget. There's a limited number of people, and every hour spent writing for this hypothetical "Post-Epic" book (for a small, niche, set of players) is one hour less spent writing something that will be used by a much larger segment of the players.
The issue with wanting post-30 in order to see "the numbers keep going up" is that it's asking for just a little bit more. It's not an appetite that's capable of being satiated. If 400 hours of play in a single class hasn't burned out your enjoyment of numbers going up, then what will? How many supplements do we need to release before it's enough? When do you not need just a little bit more?
Honestly, what's wrong with wanting a little bit more? Maybe it's never enough, but as long as everyone is having fun, what's the problem?
It's the same argument for letting go of your character. Sure, players and DMs should let go of their character when they're good and ready. But on the other hand, if they're not good and ready after 400 hours then it's a reasonable thing to say that they're not ever going to be ready, and that's not something that a design studio can address. That's not about a shortage of content, that's about a difficulty in letting go. D&D doesn't need to grow as a game; the player needs to grow as a person.
I have to do enough personal growth in real life, thank you very much. D&D is a game, and I play games to have fun.
The unstoppable march of time forces those of us in the real world to learn to let go. That doesn't make it desirable, so why should I want a game to forcibly imitate such?
This is fantasy. If nothing else then once I've slain every dragon in the world and gained god-like power I will peel back the veil of realty and realize that my world is just a small speck of dust in a greater reality, then in this greater world I will slay greater dragons who make the dragons of my original world look like pale dream-like shadows, then when I have slain all of those dragons and gained even greater god like power I will peel back the veil again and realize that even this greater world was but a mere speck of dust in an even greater reality, and so on so forth.
Honestly, what's wrong with wanting a little bit more? Maybe it's never enough, but as long as everyone is having fun, what's the problem?
That it's insatiable. If Wizards publishes a post-30 book this year, next year you'll be back asking for the post-post-30 book. If they publish that then you'll want whatever comes next.
Those books are all predicated on each other, and they're all predicated on players having actually grown tired of the level 1 to 30 content. Wizards end up producing expansions for a rapidly dwindling portion of the fanbase, pushing resources into pleasing a vocal minority while not addressing whatever problems in the existing content led to people growing tired of it in the first place.
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with you wanting more. There's something wrong with you getting it. Largely because there's no point at which it becomes a better idea to put resources into post-30 play than to put them into improving pre-30 play, even in a world of infinite development resources.
The unstoppable march of time forces those of us in the real world to learn to let go. That doesn't make it desirable, so why should I want a game to forcibly imitate such?
It's not that the game should force you to let go; no one's forcing you to do anything. It's that you're asking the developers to continue putting design resources into additional supplements to support and enable you in not letting go. Your difficulty in becoming emotionally disentangled from your character (and again, this is a rhetorical "you", I'm not having a dig at you personally, Tharag) is not the problem of Wizards or of the community at large.
To put it another way: there's no point at which Wizards can satisfy your desire to keep playing your character forever. At some point Wizards have to draw the line and say, "That's all the support we can give you" - they'll do that when they release 5E, if nothing else - and it's smarter and cleaner to draw that line now than to string you along at a cost to everyone else.
That it's insatiable. If Wizards publishes a post-30 book this year, next year you'll be back asking for the post-post-30 book. If they publish that then you'll want whatever comes next.
I don't know about others in this thread, but I'm not asking for anything like a new tier per year. I'm asking for one book that gives general advice and guidelines on how individual groups can adapt the rules and story of the game to handle unlimited levels. Then if, and only if, that product is successful I wouldn't mind seeing sequels that expand upon and refine those rules.
I could see such books providing example Lv.30+ powers, feats, items, and monsters; but most of the actual design work would be up to the individual groups that desire such high level play. The only purpose in releasing such a book should be to provide a reasonable framework in which to do that.
I don't know about others in this thread, but I'm not asking for anything like a new tier per year. I'm asking for one book that gives general advice and guidelines on how individual groups can adapt the rules and story of the game to handle unlimited levels.
As a side note, have you spotted that there's already a 3rd party product out offering post-30 play? I'm afraid I can't direct you to a link; I saw it out of the corner of my eye the other day while visiting ENWorld, but a trawl of the usual suspects would probably unearth it.
On the main point - so you're saying, "Well, just give me one book, and you can draw the line there. Unless it's really good, in which case maybe another book." Which seems to substantiate exactly what I'm saying. I'll acknowledge that the slippery slope argument isn't wonderful logic, but why shouldn't Wizards just draw the line here, and say, "30's as good a place to stop as any?"
Now, I don't think the original post necessarily means that we are going to see levels beyond 30. Mostly because it is entirely possible to run an entire campaign with the levels fixed at 30 (meaning, Lv. 30 need not be an endgame). And I sure hope we don't see those levels. The last thing we need is for D&D to cater to the weeaboo JRPG crowd with its 99-level "ZOMG must kill Ruby WEAPON!111!!!" mentality.
"ZOMG must kill Ruby WEAPON!111!!!"
Hey, killing Ruby Weapon was awesome. Are you demeaning my JRPG-related accomplishments?
Besides, 30 levels are in no way a judge of actual story length, you could spend vast amounts of times between levels or tiers, or traveling from one place to another (i made this mistake once by mapping out the whole world, and putting the 3rd dungeon 'accross a field' that if the planet was anywhere near the size of earth, was likely about as wide as Australia).
Even if you 'let go' of your 30's, their heroic actions likely impacted the world if not universe, your new characters will likely have heard of them, if not worship them, in this sense, they never truely are given up.
As a side note, have you spotted that there's already a 3rd party product out offering post-30 play? I'm afraid I can't direct you to a link; I saw it out of the corner of my eye the other day while visiting ENWorld, but a trawl of the usual suspects would probably unearth it.
Well that's nice to hear, but I tend to stick to official WotC publications. Partly as a matter of trust, partly as a matter of brand loyalty, but mostly as an arbitrary line I have drawn for my self so that I don't go around spending more than I can afford.
On the main point - so you're saying, "Well, just give me one book, and you can draw the line there. Unless it's really good, in which case maybe another book." Which seems to substantiate exactly what I'm saying. I'll acknowledge that the slippery slope argument isn't wonderful logic, but why shouldn't Wizards just draw the line here, and say, "30's as good a place to stop as any?"
No, I'm saying release one book capable of standing on it's own. Then if that book sells well, indicating that there is a sufficient player base interested in that material, release a companion book (not to add more levels, as the first book already accounted for the potential unlimited levels, but to refine and expand upon the basic frame work provided by the first book. Then if that second book also sells well release a third, forth and so on until either player interest seems to wane or until 5E is published (which ever comes first).
The Dungeon Master's Guide 2 has been referred to limited in marketing as having a focus on paragon-tier gaming (see amazon.com). This would lead one to believe that the Dungeon Master Guide 3, when available, would then explore epic-level gaming on some level.
Also, let it be noted that in the Player's Handbook, there is mention of a "Destiny Quest", and epic level quest at level 30 where you fight your most intense foes and earn all that juice under the Immortality section. This idea, however, has not been sufficiently explored, to say the least.
So, given these two facts, I would purpose that perhaps his seminar will explore how Wizards will address 30th level questing and the idea of a "Destiny Quest" in future materials.
I was not impressed, neither with the adventures or what I saw back in that rulebook. 3E's epic was not for me either, especially since it seemed to grow exponentially, instead of linearly like 1-20 did. For me, I've never really enjoyed D&D play beyond 12th-14th level, and even at that point the power level was usually more than I could bear. You'd be hard-pressed to get me to even play to 20th level in 4E. The idea of a beyond-30th level game does not appeal to me. "Too weird", IMNSHO.
Edit: *sigh* Suppose I better explain the video game reference before people get worked up over it. I meant that if you start a new game in the same campaign setting, hopefully there'll be at least some evidence of your previous PCs actions, and maybe the players will have access to some of the old gear from the previous PCs or something.
we all pretty much know that 3.x epic rules were bad....
immortality path
My question is why are you against them RELEASING post-30 play, nobody is telling you you have to play it. It just seems childish to me to not want it released. It's like not wanting a video game to come out, its just unreasonable. If you don't play it, it doesn't affect you.
It does affect those of us who choose not to play it though. The way the cosmology is set up some of the most powerful beings in existence(including the 3 most powerful demon princes) are just slightly above level 30. There is no room for demons or devils or pretty much any kind of creature short of gods(which there are a limited number of) and creatures from the far realm. However one of the core concepts of 4ed is all creatures accross all tiers of play.
As such, they would most likely create new "uber" undead, dragons, demons, devils, etc. However this would mean that theyw ould have to release brand new versions of the top tier enemies like the demon princes because they obviously have to be on top. So resources that could be spent on creating brand new and interesting creatures would instead be spent on creating the "real" version of monsters that we already have.
Additionally all future supplements would be based on the new power scale, resulting in those who refuse to play the new tier being unable to fight against interesting top tier creatures anymore as the new ones will all be 10 levels too high to fight.
There are always bigger, stronger monsters to fight.
Not in a way that keeps a consistent power hierachy throughout the universe. If Demogorgon himself is a level 34 solo, there is no room at all for a bunch of level 37 soldier demons.
Which is why I used the far realm for example.
Which is a bad example and one I am start getting sick of. Just because the Far Realm is different doesn't mean that it's the absolute superpowereldorado where the least denizen can annihilate a greater god just by sneezin in his direction. The mightiest Far Realm entities may equal the mightiest deities/primodials but there is no reason that they should just dwarf them.
Just because there is nothing existing right now that could support super powerful characters beyong epic, doesn't mean there won't be.
That they can just pull something out of the cuff doesn't mean it will make any sense.
What would those beings be like?
Lame, absolutely lame.
My question is why are you against them RELEASING post-30 play, nobody is telling you you have to play it. It just seems childish to me to not want it released. It's like not wanting a video game to come out, its just unreasonable. If you don't play it, it doesn't affect you.
Actually it does. Without that tier a sage of age, who slew the deity of secrets at the culmination of his epic destiny quest, can retire forever with countless books in a quite corner of the universe and read, read, read, .... knowing that he had done all he could to liberate knowledge and deserves his eternal studies.
With a past epic tier the same guy is just a bully who beat up a toddler and then hid because he didn't have to balls to play the real game with the big boys.
But hey, that'd be original and innovative.
The game is perfectly able to handle at least another tier, and if there is a market for it, they should do it.
4E doesn't scale up indefinitely -- the power system is already pushed to its limits by level 29. You actually think there's room for a whole 'nother tier beyond 30? You're crazy.
4E added a nice, neat cap to allow the game be well contained. Unlike in 3E, in 4E you can battle deities and demonlords without your game completely falling apart. What possible reason could you have for wanting to destroy that concise structure, when everything that has been proposed for beyond Epic fits just as well into Epic itself?
This wasn't true when 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition grognards said it, and it's not true when you say it.
What are you going to do, manage planets? Oversee divine dominions? You've already killed all the big baddies in Epic tier, so what else is left to do? There's nothing to quest against that can't be quested against in the existing Epic tier.
Micromanaging a realm is no more a part of D&D than managing a farm or business is; these things might happen in the context of the game, but we gloss over the details because the game isn't about those things. D&D doesn't have rules for doing these things, and even if it did, they'd be completely out of place.
Not in a way that keeps a consistent power hierachy throughout the universe. If Demogorgon himself is a level 34 solo, there is no room at all for a bunch of level 37 soldier demons.
The abyss has never been explored completely and its not impossible to guess that there are layers which contain beings the other demonlords do not wish to disturb. Again all we've seen is what we've seen and that should not be considered the limit of the game. Its the default difficulty setting.
Again as an example, when you enter far realm, you will encounter things that make even the most powerful known beings seem like weak mortals.
Besides that, the elemental chaos and astral sea has also not been completely mapped out. So there is room for possibles.
Which is a bad example and one I am start getting sick of. Just because the Far Realm is different doesn't mean that it's the absolute superpowereldorado where the least denizen can annihilate a greater god just by sneezin in his direction. The mightiest Far Realm entities may equal the mightiest deities/primodials but there is no reason that they should just dwarf them.
Basically all the fluff about far realm so far disagrees with you and describes itself as the greatest threat to known creation. It IS the single greatest threat in the game so far. Whether we like it or not.
That they can just pull something out of the cuff doesn't mean it will make any sense.
I completely agree and never said I wanted something "pulled out of the cuff", I want well thought out and well executed ideas. Not filler.
Lame, absolutely lame.
Ok so the essence of darkness from ravenloft, AO from forgotten realms, the Highgod from Dragonlance and the Lady of Pain were all lame to you? Not to me. Also my examples were just that and the actual material put out would be far better than that.
The abyss has never been explored completely and its not impossible to guess that there are layers which contain beings the other demonlords do not wish to disturb. Again all we've seen is what we've seen and that should not be considered the limit of the game. Its the default difficulty setting.
Again as an example, when you enter far realm, you will encounter things that make even the most powerful known beings seem like weak mortals.
Besides that, the elemental chaos and astral sea has also not been completely mapped out. So there is room for possibles.
Basically all the fluff about far realm so far disagrees with you and describes itself as the greatest threat to known creation. It IS the single greatest threat in the game so far. Whether we like it or not.
If they pulled the "unexplored" bit out, that would be the lamest thing in fiction since the "it was a dream" plot device was first used.
If we're using in game "logic" to justify things I'm pretty sure entities with powerful magic & knowledge abilities that are essentially immortal (deities, dragons, demon/devil lords, special mention to super schemers Vecna and Azmodeous) would have the means at their disposal to indeed map and know most of everything.
The far realm nonsense is chuthuitis at its finest; why should weird alien stuff be more powerful than weird demon stuff or weird elemental stuff or weird undead monstrocity stuff?
Because it's unknown?, because it's far away?, because it has tentacles? because it's "horrifying and madness inducing"? -Lame, just terrible justifications for anything. I don't think a hero who has experienced the horrors of the abyss or witnessed the awe of the astral sea is going to be thrown by weird alien tentacle porn monsters.
I wouldn't be against an article series in DDI that tells you how to rescale monsters to effectively create one or two more tiers of play however. But adding new better monsters is a ridiculous idea and assumedly WoTC knows better.
Now on enworld I have encouraged the guy that is writing 3 more teirs, but I hop WotC does not follow suit...why, becuse I think they have enough on there plate.
as it stands now we have way too many level 26+ Solos...and almost no minons, and not enough regulars...
there are 20 monsters that are regular between 26-28...and none above 28 (just checked the compandium)
there are 7 minons none above 30...and only 1 28, and 2 30's...
there are 16 elites, none above level 27... and only 2 at 27
55 solos monsters in that range...
lets add that all up 98 monsters level 26+... 10 encounters per level
5 levels (Including 30th, only 4 if we don't) and each campaing needs to us 1/2 or more of those monsters...
now people want level 31??? do you realize how little the support is for level25...
I would love to see a working epic set up before we get a 4tier...
Now on enworld I have encouraged the guy that is writing 3 more teirs, but I hop WotC does not follow suit...why, becuse I think they have enough on there plate.
as it stands now we have way too many level 26+ Solos...and almost no minons, and not enough regulars...
there are 20 monsters that are regular between 26-28...and none above 28 (just checked the compandium)
there are 7 minons none above 30...and only 1 28, and 2 30's...
there are 16 elites, none above level 27... and only 2 at 27
55 solos monsters in that range...
lets add that all up 98 monsters level 26+... 10 encounters per level
5 levels (Including 30th, only 4 if we don't) and each campaing needs to us 1/2 or more of those monsters...
now people want level 31??? do you realize how little the support is for level25...
So if you run through levels 26+ twice you will have fought all of those monsters at least once(well almost in any likelyhood). That's repetetive.
Very good analysis, how does it look for early epic tier?
The abyss has never been explored completely and its not impossible to guess that there are layers which contain beings the other demonlords do not wish to disturb. Again all we've seen is what we've seen and that should not be considered the limit of the game. Its the default difficulty setting.
I am completely and utterly amazed. You have actually managed to find something that they could do that would get me to completely quit D&D(well 4th edition). I thought I was too much of a fanboy for there to actually exist a serious limit, but apparently you found it. Good job.
Ok so the essence of darkness from ravenloft, AO from forgotten realms, the Highgod from Dragonlance and the Lady of Pain were all lame to you? Not to me. Also my examples were just that and the actual material put out would be far better than that.
None of those are beings worshipped by gods(well I dunno about the Highgod). In fact those seem to be things that discourage worship as I know that all cults of Ao destroy themselves rather quickly(implied he is responsible) and the Lady of Pain will kill anyone who worships her(as I recall). I can't really say that any of them are particularly interesting, especially as adversaries. They seem mostly to be deus ex machina to explain why things occured the way they did rather than beings meant to seriously be fought by PCs.
Homer: Mr. Burns, you're the richest man I know.
Burns: Yes, but I'd trade it all for a little more.
...
A four hour session covers approximately three encounters. A level is (per the DMG) about ten encounters. Playing level 1 to 30 in a single class is therefore around 400 hours of play, or around 17 days of uninterrupted play without sleep. With 20 classes and approximately four builds in each class you're looking at 3.7 years of continuous play without sleep to experience all the available content, not counting the variation that comes from different paragon paths, epic destinies and weapon selections, and assuming that classes play more or less similarly regardless of which race you choose (which is plainly not true).
This may be kind of a tangential argument, but, although there are certain aspects of variation you're not including, there're also certain redundancies you're not excluding. To borrow an example from a blog I like, you can only fight kobold ambushes so many times, before D&D becomes "that game where you get ambushed by kobolds."
[Or, any general type of monster encounter.] Fighting kobold ambushes with a battle cleric is certainly different from with a shielding cleric, and slightly different from with a strength paladin, which is in turn somewhat different from a hammer fighter, but... are those four builds enough to really suggest four distinct experiences for the fight? I'd say maybe they comprise about three distinct experiences. I'd say as you add on more and more builds to your 'experience set,' the frequency that a build provides a new unique experiences decreases more and more.The combination of class-build-monsters-terrain can provide for endless variation, but a great deal of the individual combat rounds in that variation are near-identical to each other.
I'm feeling it with just one build, right now. I like my lv8 preserving invoker, but I do just about the same thing every encounter. Okay, I exaggerated--I basically have two or three encounter strategies: blow my 5th/6th dailies, blow my other dailies, or don't blow any dailies. Occasionally I find something unique to do (like Sunstrike ogres off a cliff), so it's not like it's absolutely dreary; it's just that it's like playing a board game with character choice (Talisman, e.g.), weekend after weekend, and playing the same character time after time. I don't want to lose this character, but I want to try out other options too, and I can't have both unless I find a second campaign to join.
Now that I think about it, that could probably be taken as a supporting argument for not playing past 30. If you tend to be bored with the same abilities... you'd be better off rolling a new character, not extending yours past 30.
One of the best reasons to play past 30 that I can think of is, your campaign has a plot that needs to unfold, and it's not quite close to done yet. I think it's worth Wizards' while to create supplementary rules for it, but I wouldn't want them to concentrate too much on it. It doesn't have to be balanced (edit: I meant here that it doesn't have to be precisely balanced. It should still be reasonably balanced, with all classes/subclasses getting about the same use and enjoyment from it. It doesn't necessarily need to be balanced against monsters, though; the PCs are probably steamrolling everything by this point anyway.), and it should probably be heavily disclaimed as optional, etc. (At least on the level that the Hybrid rules are disclaimed as potentially unbalancing.) I don't think they need a whole book dedicated to another tier. Just a chapter or so, and maybe another chapter for example monsters. I don't think characters need to be able to advance to level 31, but I don't think it'd be a waste of time to come up with some way they can augment their abilities, maybe 'buying' feats and powers directly with experience points. (I.E. When you hit 1,000,000, which is 30, you go back down to zero, then you can buy new stuff with the experience you accrue after that. Heroic feat--100000. Paragon feat--150000. Epic feat--200000. Etc. I'm just kinda brainstorming at this point.)
If they pulled the "unexplored" bit out, that would be the lamest thing in fiction since the "it was a dream" plot device was first used.
Only a small majority of the multiverse has been mapped out.
If we're using in game "logic" to justify things I'm pretty sure entities with powerful magic & knowledge abilities that are essentially immortal (deities, dragons, demon/devil lords, special mention to super schemers Vecna and Azmodeous) would have the means at their disposal to indeed map and know most of everything.
Then explain why the gods havnt mapped out far realm? Explain why so much of the abyss is left untouched. Because even gods have limits, especially in 4e. If they didn't have limits, they wouldn't be killable.;)
The far realm nonsense is chuthuitis at its finest; why should weird alien stuff be more powerful than weird demon stuff or weird elemental stuff or weird undead monstrocity stuff?
Because it's unknown?, because it's far away?, because it has tentacles? because it's "horrifying and madness inducing"? -Lame, just terrible justifications for anything. I don't think a hero who has experienced the horrors of the abyss or witnessed the awe of the astral sea is going to be thrown by weird alien tentacle porn monsters.
Actually, the fluff says as much. Just read what the motp says about far realm.
I wouldn't be against an article series in DDI that tells you how to rescale monsters to effectively create one or two more tiers of play however. But adding new better monsters is a ridiculous idea and assumedly WoTC knows better.
Making too much DDI robs those of us who do not subscribe. The products are for the consumers, which is what I am. You don't have to buy it, but I'm sure many would, especially when it touches on unknown and new material or expands our game.
Bolded parts are mine.
*takes a bow*
Thats just your personal tastes and if a single product would inspire you to "ragequit" then thats your own personal issue. Thats like 2e fans ragequitting because of 3e and 3e fans ragequitting because of 3.5 and 3.5 fans ragequitting because of 4e. The difference is that those people had an entirely new edition to deal with where as you only have a few new products in an existing edition. Its pretty narrow minded to consider discovery as a horrible idea. Spelljammer didn't even map out the entire multiverse. There are plenty of unknowns that can be added instead of recycling the exact same information over and over again. But its all about personal taste and if wotc can make money off of a product featuring intelligent golems, paladins who commit murder in the name of good gods and dinosaur riding halflings, then anything is possible.
None of those are beings worshipped by gods(well I dunno about the Highgod). In fact those seem to be things that discourage worship as I know that all cults of Ao destroy themselves rather quickly(implied he is responsible) and the Lady of Pain will kill anyone who worships her(as I recall). I can't really say that any of them are particularly interesting, especially as adversaries. They seem mostly to be deus ex machina to explain why things occured the way they did rather than beings meant to seriously be fought by PCs.
Same concept, different application. (no the high god wasn't worshipped either) just examples of how their can be greater beings the gods could worship. The gods don't need to worship those greater beings for them to exist which was my point. Things do exist that are greater than the gods. Maybe overdeities are not the limit in power. Thats the point and it could be explored. I agree with you that those things I used as examples are nothing more than the almighty plot device to progress the story easily without needing to write down a 100,000 word history on "why something is the way it is." They were just examples.
Bolded parts mine. Cause I'm a lazy goblin.
"Super-epic" is actually a good term to describe those, as they are nothing more than the epic tier with "super" (or other emphasis words) added before everything.
Stuff like "Congrats! You've killed the gods! But WAIT! It turns out these gods were small stuff after all! Here come the OVERgods!" is as lame as a story device can get, IMO.
Bolded parts mine. Cause I'm a lazy goblin.
Yeah nice for you, a shame it makes things a pain for anyone who decides to respond to the post.
Thats just your personal tastes and if a single product would inspire you to "ragequit" then thats your own personal issue. Thats like 2e fans ragequitting because of 3e and 3e fans ragequitting because of 3.5 and 3.5 fans ragequitting because of 4e. The difference is that those people had an entirely new edition to deal with where as you only have a few new products in an existing edition. Its pretty narrow minded to consider discovery as a horrible idea. Spelljammer didn't even map out the entire multiverse. There are plenty of unknowns that can be added instead of recycling the exact same information over and over again. But its all about personal taste and if wotc can make money off of a product featuring intelligent golems, paladins who commit murder in the name of good gods and dinosaur riding halflings, then anything is possible.
I'm sorry I should have been more specific. I meant I would stop buying new books and stop hanging out here. As I currently don't play D&D it is roughly the same as quitting. Were I currently playing, I would probably stick it out till the campaign ended. Anyways the reason is that it is creatively bankrupt. It is the cheap way out that is roughly the equivilent of saying "We don't care anymore". If the developers aren't going to care about the quality of their product, then I see no reason that I should. Oh and the reason that Spelljammers didn't map out the entire multiverse is because in the 2ed days it was impossible to do. Every plane was infinite in those days. The abyss? Infinite levels of infinite planes. 4th edition has mostly killed off the infinite planes approach.
Same concept, different application. (no the high god wasn't worshipped either) just examples of how their can be greater beings the gods could worship. The gods don't need to worship those greater beings for them to exist which was my point. Things do exist that are greater than the gods. Maybe overdeities are not the limit in power. Thats the point and it could be explored. I agree with you that those things I used as examples are nothing more than the almighty plot device to progress the story easily without needing to write down a 100,000 word history on "why something is the way it is." They were just examples.
Then come up with an example of these "uber-gods" that is interesting, isn't just a god, and isn't just a plot device. I'm willing to bet that you can't come up with one because when you get above the level of gods you pretty much are just left with deus ex machina territory(or Mary Sue territory).
I find that after reading 3 pages of redundant posting, most people against it are afraid of number-crunching mechanics, and that the plot cannot continue as a feasible storyline.
Will there be a big enough market for it, who knows? I'm going to be open-minded about it even if I don't have any characters who don't reach it in time by 5th edition coming out. 5th edition is the last thing I'd want to consider, since I've already spent well over $500 on a DDI subscription, and most of the 4th ed. books that are in print.
I would buy it if you were able to fight the Primordials, and explore the Elemental Chaos. Just because some deities in general know what's out there, doesn't justify that you can't find out for yourself.
.....You can explore the Elemental Chaos from level 1 onwards, and we already have stats for at least one primordial(I want to say we have stats for 2) and he is entirely fightable without an extra tier being added on.
-=Edit: Whoo, I remembered right there are two. Rorn and Mual-Tar.=-
.....You can explore the Elemental Chaos from level 1 onwards, and we already have stats for at least one primordial(I want to say we have stats for 2) and he is entirely fightable without an extra tier being added on.
.... But is there anything besides MOTP that puts it into detail? I don't find it justifiable that a low-level peon character can explore through an outer realm, and survive. Not to mention from your quote, we've only got two primordials? Lame.
I'm not sure if you've read any of my posts before, but I'll give you a little insight. I play D&D to be in combat, and I play it well. If I enjoy a character so much past level 30, then I'm going to be the guy that likes to whack away at Primordials and Evil Deities. That's just the way I like it.
Am I one person out of many D&D players? Sure.... but I can safely assume there's a lot of other players just like me.
Yeah nice for you, a shame it makes things a pain for anyone who decides to respond to the post.
Sorry, I thought it easy to scroll down and copy paste or just continue to reply with bolded responses. I'll try to be less lazy.
I'm sorry I should have been more specific. I meant I would stop buying new books and stop hanging out here. As I currently don't play D&D it is roughly the same as quitting. Were I currently playing, I would probably stick it out till the campaign ended. Anyways the reason is that it is creatively bankrupt. It is the cheap way out that is roughly the equivilent of saying "We don't care anymore". If the developers aren't going to care about the quality of their product, then I see no reason that I should. Oh and the reason that Spelljammers didn't map out the entire multiverse is because in the 2ed days it was impossible to do. Every plane was infinite in those days. The abyss? Infinite levels of infinite planes. 4th edition has mostly killed off the infinite planes approach.
Well I highly doubt that the entire explanation of new material would be "we stumbled across this new realm of reality. Oops, enjoy!" I'm pretty sure wotc writers could come up with a better, more detailed idea than that. I mean they did come up with a brand new cosmology and everyone jumped on board because it was done well. They changed races and the origins of races and people enjoyed it. I'm just using basic idea examples. I shouldn't be required to lay down fully fleshed out ideas to post examples. I'm not getting paid and most examples get the "thats freaking stupid, bad writing, go play wow" responses.:D I know, atleast I expect people who post here to be very creative and be able to project their own ideas into what I am saying.
If I say "you enter a dark room with low burning candles and behind the bonecarved desk sits a..." and your own mind will fill in the blanks with things YOU like. Thats the point of basic examples. Discovery can be a really, really good way of explaining things when thats not ALL it is. I mean baator is its own worldplane now.
People seem to accept it and many like it.You're a smart guy, I'm sure you can think of ways how exploration and discovery could lead to a really great new setting. But that the discovery is not the end all be all means of introducing that setting. Plus its just an example and can be tossed out in place for better ones.
Then come up with an example of these "uber-gods" that is interesting, isn't just a god, and isn't just a plot device. I'm willing to bet that you can't come up with one because when you get above the level of gods you pretty much are just left with deus ex machina territory(or Mary Sue territory).
Simply look at what has already been done and apply the better ideas to it with a higher level of drama and mystery. There are plenty of ideas YOU can think of that would be very interesting, atleast to you. Same goes for everyone. Many of us would also share an interest in those ideas. Not all of us, but thats exactly why we have seperate settings. Super duper powerful godly god material could be a big hit if its done right and so far wotc, inspite of my earlier feelings, has shown me that it is, indeed, capable of putting forth really good (KICK ASS!) material and ideas.
When I first heard that there was no ethreal plane anymore I was like,
(Are you ******* joking me, what a horrible idea, those people are fools, the sky is falling, the world is going to end, my soda is flat and my lighter is out of fluid.) But after actually reading on the new structure of the cosmology, I was seriously impressed and a small side section of the original great wheel is even included and suggestions on how to include older aspects incase fans want to have them.I'm willing to give wotc the chance to suprise me, I'm willing to give wotc the chance to prove my knee-jerk reacts as just that and nothing more and I would seriously hope that my fellow D&D fans would do the same.
Making too much DDI robs those of us who do not subscribe. The products are for the consumers, which is what I am. You don't have to buy it, but I'm sure many would, especially when it touches on unknown and new material or expands our game.
Bolded parts are mine.
I'm confused: is the bolded part yours, or is the part that's not bolded that says, "Bolded parts are mine," yours? Why can't you just use quote boxes like everyone else?
Reading your posts is almost as frustrating as reading posts from people who quote without including the name of who they're quoting.
EDIT: Thank you.^
Sorry, I thought it easy to scroll down and copy paste or just continue to reply with bolded responses. I'll try to be less lazy.
I had no problem reading your post, but there was no easy way to quote your responses since using the quote feature cuts out everything in the quote boxes(so if I quoted your response I lost almost all of it). I had to resort to using two tabs which was just unnecesary and annoying.
Anyways, I'm really really really pissy right now(for reasons unrelated to this thread), and I don't want to explode on someone who doesn't deserve it right now, so I'm bowing out for the moment.
I had no problem reading your post, but there was no easy way to quote your responses since using the quote feature cuts out everything in the quote boxes(so if I quoted your response I lost almost all of it). I had to resort to using two tabs which was just unnecesary and annoying.
Anyways, I'm really really really pissy right now(for reasons unrelated to this thread), and I don't want to explode on someone who doesn't deserve it right now, so I'm bowing out for the moment.
I'll quote correctly from now on. Come back when you feel like it, I'm always up for a good discussion with cool people.
Honestly I think the ONLY reason people don't want post-30 level play is because they are afraid it will be too broken. And that's just a terrible reason not to want something. There is no reason not to want them to at least TRY.
I want them not to try because I think it will be a waste of resources to do so - new powers for every class, new feats/items for the new levels, 'extra epic destinies', etc.... when only a fraction of the players will need it (since the game already has a built in stopping point at epic.)
I am all for them implementing extra ways to keep playing at 30, since I think that will take significantly less effort while allowing those interested in such things to have support for them in the rules.
I'm trying hard to stay open to the concept of a so-called super-epic tier, but the way it was often brought about leaves me completely uninterested. It's basically just another layer which is a boosted copy of the others.
"Super-epic" is actually a good term to describe those, as they are nothing more than the epic tier with "super" (or other emphasis words) added before everything.
Stuff like "Congrats! You've killed the gods! But WAIT! It turns out these gods were small stuff after all! Here come the OVERgods!" is as lame as a story device can get, IMO.
Have a
! I would buy it if you were able to fight the Primordials, and explore the Elemental Chaos. Just because some deities in general know what's out there, doesn't justify that you can't find out for yourself.
I find that after reading 3 pages of redundant posting, most people against it are afraid of number-crunching mechanics, and that the plot cannot continue as a feasible storyline.
There's nothing that could be in "post-Epic tier" that wouldn't make at least as much sense in Epic tier. The fact that post-Epic tier threatens to be both a failing product and collapse the mechanics of 4E underneath it is just the icing on the cake of arguments against it.
there be a big enough market for it, who knows? I'm going to be open-minded about it even if I don't have any characters who don't reach it in time by 5th edition coming out. 5th edition is the last thing I'd want to consider, since I've already spent well over $500 on a DDI subscription, and most of the 4th ed. books that are in print.
...You spent over $500 on D&DI? That's probably not what you meant (because it would be impossible at this point, without having multiple subscriptions) but that's what it reads like you're saying.
Ma Yuan existed in 2nd and 3rd edition and was referred to as the Killer of the Gods. He is exactly one of those entities, being trapped in the Wells of Darkness. Would you having known of him made you "quit D&D forever!" in 3rd edition? What if he gets revived and statted up for 4th edition?
Threatening to quit D&D if WotC makes a single product you don't like = emotionally immature. Grow up.
Have a
There's nothing that could be in "post-Epic tier" that wouldn't make at least as much sense in Epic tier. The fact that post-Epic tier threatens to be both a failing product and collapse the mechanics of 4E underneath it is just the icing on the cake of arguments against it.
...You spent over $500 on D&DI? That's probably not what you meant (because it would be impossible at this point, without having multiple subscriptions) but that's what it reads like you're saying.
"Failing product" when currently there's only speculation as to what it may contain, and everything right now is anecdotal evidence until proven otherwise. It's funny that I might eat my own words pretty soon, if they publish teaser material.
....And no, I didn't spend $500 on solely DDI. It was for the subscription, and the 4th ed. books I've purchased..
.....You can explore the Elemental Chaos from level 1 onwards, and we already have stats for at least one primordial(I want to say we have stats for 2) and he is entirely fightable without an extra tier being added on.
And yet the very article that introduces one of those two primordials has this to say.
[INDENT]During the long ages of its imprisonment, Mual-Tar’s once-keen mind has degenerated into animalistic savagery and its power is greatly diminished from what it once was—[/INDENT]
If a level 35 solo is what Maul-Tar has become after having his power "greatly diminished", imagine what kind of beast he must have been during the dawn war when it took the combined efforts of 3 gods to defeat him. There is just no way for the rules as they currently stand to allow players to meaningfully contribute in a fight against a creature like what the thunder serpent once was.
Furthermore just because you find the narrative conceit that there is always a bigger fish to be lame, doesn't mean that others can't enjoy it. The very idea that the release of a single, self-contained, book exploring that concept would cause you to abandon 4E is ridiculous. If you don't like it don't buy it, but just because WotC choose to explore a new concept doesn't mean they have run out of idea, only that they are attempting to provide a wider range of options for those that are interested.
And yet the very article that introduces one of those two primordials has this to say.
[INDENT]During the long ages of its imprisonment, Mual-Tar’s once-keen mind has degenerated into animalistic savagery and its power is greatly diminished from what it once was—[/INDENT]
If a level 35 solo is what Maul-Tar has become after having his power "greatly diminished", imagine what kind of beast he must have been during the dawn war when it took the combined efforts of 3 gods to defeat him. There is just no way for the rules as they currently stand to allow players to meaningfully contribute in a fight against a creature like what the thunder serpent once was.
I imagin he was a threat to 3 solo 38 creatures...(AKA greater gods)...witch is about 15 38th level characters...witch is about the power of a 43-44 solo...
I also think that there is a market for 'imortal' teirs of play, and fully support 3rd parties playing with it, and house rules...and even bits of books...but I do not feel that a book is warrented from WotC...
Furthermore just because you find the narrative conceit that there is always a bigger fish to be lame, doesn't mean that others can't enjoy it.
I don't think anyone has called this idea lame...infact the 'there is always a bigger fish' idea is why I am pushing for such a book not to be made...becuse it puts a damper on the idea.
right now PCs cap at 30, we have stats up to 35s...and we do have 'levels' of the creatures above that...we have that this deity is bigger then 35, but that deity is bigger then him...and the lady of pain is above both of them...but they stop useing numbers at that piont...
The very idea that the release of a single, self-contained, book exploring that concept would cause you to abandon 4E is ridiculous.
no book in 4e is self contained...everything is core. This is good and bad...in this case it is bad. It means fluff wise Demogorgan and Orcus are no longer king bad ass...it means that it changes the whole...that is what we are against.
in 3e the ELHB came out, and all of a sudden the gods were punks. the tarrasqe was just another stepping block... I hope we avoid this this time...we need a scale to make the stories (in defalt all is core) work...adding too much will break that...
If you don't like it don't buy it, but just because WotC choose to explore a new concept doesn't mean they have run out of idea, only that they are attempting to provide a wider range of options for those that are interested.
but it also is a choice to pick expanding the level instead of adding to the ones that are there already (as I pointed out above level25+ is very baren). Remeber at 1 book a month (on avrage) that is a use of there resources...
Now I can see it being done well...infact I have in my own mind worked up some ideas...including expanding the magic item chart up...an artaficer with the two feats that increase your level that started with a 20 int and went demi god (or any other +2 int ed) could make an item 12 levels higher then them...so 42nd level items...+9 weapon/implemnts, Neck, armor...or the like.
I also imagin that someday (hopefully after we have a full epic teir) we will get a 'dawn war' book with levels 31-35...takeign the fight to the gods/primordials...
I would buy it if you were able to fight the Primordials, and explore the Elemental Chaos.
The elemental chaos will have a sourcebook out this december.
The elemental chaos will have a sourcebook out this december.
Yes please.
"Failing product" when currently there's only speculation as to what it may contain, and everything right now is anecdotal evidence until proven otherwise. It's funny that I might eat my own words pretty soon, if they publish teaser material.
We aren't speculating what will be in an upcoming product, we're speculating over a hypothetical product about another tier beyond Epic in 4E. Such a hypothetical product would likely be a failure given the response shown in this thread: mostly negative, except for a handful of fans. Imagine how poor response would be among most (read: casual) gamers.
It's not to say there isn't room for D&D "Beyond 30", or a market for a product about that, but it's pretty clear that leveling beyond 30th is a poor idea. A lot of interesting things can happen at 30th level, and Epic Destiny quests can take a long time to complete; this is the "beyond 30" into which 4E has room to grow.
At any rate, the reason we're discussing this at all is because WotC is hosting a seminar at GenCon Indy this weekend -- not because any forthcoming product has been announced.
We aren't speculating what will be in an upcoming product, we're speculating over a hypothetical product about another tier beyond Epic in 4E. Such a hypothetical product would likely be a failure given the response shown in this thread: mostly negative, except for a handful of fans. Imagine how poor response would be among most (read: casual) gamers.
Really? I would have expected better from you. These forums are not necessarily an accurate sampling of the actual average consumer. This thread with only around 35 different posters even less so.
disclaimer: Those numbers are just throw aways and I'm not responsible for people taking me serious.
The developers of the original three books had a finite finish in mind for characters. The silly bunnies thought that calling the third tier "epic" and having ED's that made characters gods (and not having that much more for a choice) would quash any thought of beyond 30th level play.
Level caps, what were they thinking?
Really? I would have expected better from you. These forums are not necessarily an accurate sampling of the actual average consumer. This thread with only around 35 different posters even less so.
You're right, it's not a great sample. That said, "Joe Casual Gamer" can always be counted upon to be more sedate in response to -- and less likely to purchase -- a given product than the excited fans online. Thus, I suspect that response to this hypothetical product will be severely limited.
You're right, it's not a great sample. That said, "Joe Casual Gamer" can always be counted upon to be more sedate in response to -- and less likely to purchase -- a given product than the excited fans online. Thus, I suspect that response to this hypothetical product will be severely limited.
More sedate works both ways. Meaning that your "Joe Casual Gamer" is also less like to be so radically opposed to the prospect in the first place. Rather than have an opinion informed by reading these debates by we few, his opinion is more likely to be shaped by the spin WotC puts on the back of the book and in the introduction.
Furthermore, given that we live in a world were block buster movies are followed by sequel after sequel, I think that one should never underestimate the common mans desire for "more of the same, only big and flashier", and what is a book on super-epic play if not such a promise.
The elemental chaos will have a sourcebook out this december.
With me being an impulsive D&D buyer, I'm sooooooooo going to buy that.
is any of the regulars from this thread going to the seminar??? or is this going to still be an argument next week when no one knows what was said???
I cannot go due to work, and school coming up soon. The forums will be down for a week while they update the site.
I cannot go due to work, and school coming up soon. The forums will be down for a week while they update the site.
These forums?
These forums?
Apparently so (link). I had been unaware my self until just a few moments ago; I all too often ignore those announcements at the top of the forums.
It's not so bad though. With any luck the new platform will be more stable than what we've got now (less down time). If nothing else a week of no forums to distract me should help me catch up on the paperwork stacking up in my in box.
Apparently so (link). I had been unaware my self until just a few moments ago; I all too often ignore those announcements at the top of the forums.
It's not so bad though. With any luck the new platform will be more stable than what we've got now (less down time). If nothing else a week of no forums to distract me should help me catch up on the paperwork stacking up in my in box.
Thank you for the link. Well atleast I'll get more study of 4e done. With less time to chat about 4e, I'll have more time to get the rules down. I might even jump back into some games.
is any of the regulars from this thread going to the seminar??? or is this going to still be an argument next week when no one knows what was said???
Australian, so I'm in the wrong country. But I'm expecting a loose summary to be on ENWorld within about an hour of the session and then something less excitable to hit Critical Hits or somewhere within 24 hours.
The issue with wanting post-30 in order to see "the numbers keep going up" is that it's asking for just a little bit more. It's not an appetite that's capable of being satiated. If 400 hours of play in a single class hasn't burned out your enjoyment of numbers going up, then what will? How many supplements do we need to release before it's enough? When do you not need just a little bit more?
It's the same argument for letting go of your character. Sure, players and DMs should let go of their character when they're good and ready. But on the other hand, if they're not good and ready after 400 hours then it's a reasonable thing to say that they're not ever going to be ready, and that's not something that a design studio can address. That's not about a shortage of content, that's about a difficulty in letting go. D&D doesn't need to grow as a game; the player needs to grow as a person.
Hold on a second here. Greg, I think you need to take a step back from the situation - someone wanting to continue adventuring with their character, at level 30, "needs to grow as a person"???
Look, I am absolutely in agreement with you in how I myself play. I like the current dramatic story arc that 4E produces, the attaining of a final closing for a character with the epic destiny, and so on.
But saying that someone whose style of play doesn't match your own is somehow inferior - not just as a player, but as a person - is way out of line.
There are plenty of very mature and rational gamers who will enjoy continuing a campaign even once they've hit that final story arc. A DM can easily keep them there, having fully developed into their Epic Destinies, and continue to weave an intricate story. I have no problems with WotC giving some advice to them on doing so, or even introducing some optional ways to continue their campaigns.
I don't think it is a great need, so I would be opposed to it being such a large scale project that it requires investment of significant resources - I wouldn't want to see a "Post Epic Player's Handbook". But giving out some advice in a panel? Even including some mechanics in a Dragon article, or one chapter of PHB3 or DMG3? That's more than fine with me. (Especially if that advice is just alternate ways to providing rewards for level 30 characters.)
And even if I did think it was a waste of space, I don't think it is remotely reasonable to state that those gamers have some flaw as a person because they enjoy playing the same character indefinitely. There isn't some bizarre '400 hour' quota where a character becomes boring. Some people have been playing the same characters in the same campaigns for decades, and if that is what they enjoy, more power to them!
If your argument is that it is unreasonable to expect WotC to indefinitely provide more and more support for post-level 30 play, then I agree. But I completely disagree that it is wrong to desire the ability to have post-level play. If WotC wishes to provide a small level of support (one panel, one article, one chapter) that lets them indefinitely extend a campaign on their own, that is absolutely fine.
Pure number progression is easy enough, but mere numbers stop being important when, As I pointed out, you can destroy the world on a whim.
Once you have your level 30 capstone, what abilities could you POSSIBLY get from there?
Pure number progression is easy enough, but mere numbers stop being important when, As I pointed out, you can destroy the world on a whim.
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's the FAR REALM. I wouldn't expect a realm of madness beyond the boundaries of reality to make any kind of sense.
Now I'm not trying to endorse those who try to rely exclusively on the Far Realm as source of super-epic threats. I personal find such a concept far to restrictive, and have given my own examples of how to create super-epic threats without bringing in Cthulhu-like horrors (see earlier in this thread).
Far Realm=/= Suck.;)
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
You are not very smart if the only thing you can do is demonize and insult those who disagree with you. Not very smart at all.
You are not very smart if the only thing you can do is demonize and insult those who disagree with you. Not very smart at all.
Because it's been proven that the people who want levels beyond 30 have absolutely no clue as to the context of D&D. Period. End of story.
Some points of view deserve to be demonized.
Because it's been proven that the people who want levels beyond 30 have absolutely no clue as to the context of D&D. Period. End of story.
Thats subjective and opinionated blather.
Because it's been proven that the people who want levels beyond 30 have absolutely no clue as to the context of D&D. Period. End of story.
Bull. It's nowhere close to proven, and proving something like that would require a heap of evidence. I'm talking about a 40-something-page report, both on the nature of D&D and the people defending a 30+ level game. And the nature of D&D has not been determined, so that theory is gone out the window. Not only have you no concept of what you're talking about, this:
Some points of view deserve to be demonized.
It's a harmless viewpoint and affects no one except those who want to be affected (those who buy the product and those who manufacture it).
Bull. It's nowhere close to proven, and proving something like that would require a heap of evidence.
It's all been stated in this very thread.
Namely, to paraphrase:
- Epic Tier play is the least commonly played as it is
- Characters are designed to top out at Lv. 30. Period.
- The assumptions written into 4e's descriptions of Heroic, Paragon and Epic tiers would have to be completely discarded.
I'm talking about a 40-something-page report, both on the nature of D&D and the people defending a 30+ level game.
40 pages on your ilk? It doesn't take 40 pages.
And the nature of D&D has not been determined, so that theory is gone out the window.
Except that it has. Read the Player's Handbook. And the DMG.
It's a harmless viewpoint and affects no one except those who want to be affected (those who buy the product and those who manufacture it).
No, it affects everyone involved because the efforts that went into more levels for the JRPG weeaboos could've instead gone into more options for the levels where most people actually, you know, play D&D. Heroic and Paragon Tiers.
You are not very smart if the only thing you can do is demonize and insult those who disagree with you. Not very smart at all.
Do you like irony? I do.
At any rate, I didn't insult anyone. Rather, I mocked an argument I've heard numerous times. You, on the other hand, are insulting people directly; above, you say that I'm not very smart, and below, you call Litigation an ass. I'm curious about how you would judge yourself.
Bull. It's nowhere close to proven, and proving something like that would require a heap of evidence. I'm talking about a 40-something-page report, both on the nature of D&D and the people defending a 30+ level game. And the nature of D&D has not been determined, so that theory is gone out the window. Not only have you no concept of what you're talking about, this:Some points of view deserve to be demonized.
It's a harmless viewpoint and affects no one except those who want to be affected (those who buy the product and those who manufacture it).
Listen, if you'll agree with nothing else, agree that WotC has to be able to make some money off of every product it produces. What a lot of us are saying is that we don't think WotC would be able to do so with this idea, because of limited interest and mixed reception to this topic. Since we don't want it personally and don't think that WotC will want it, we'd just prefer that WotC keep its imaginations busy writing about things that more of us are interested in, instead of trying to explain ever bigger and badder monsters.
Of course it doesn't make sense, it's the FAR REALM. I wouldn't expect a realm of madness beyond the boundaries of reality to make any kind of sense.
Well, when you put it that way, T_B, I'm sold! :coolcthul
There are any number of characters who, because of their level 30 capstone powers, have "I win" buttons that don't rely on character level. Your level 43 Solo cannot kill a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, no matter how much damage it deals. Likewise, an Elven Demigod can always hit, whatever the absurd defenses Ao has. And the Magster can set up a force field that only works against the target in a single action, rendering your super-deific powers moot.
Do you like irony? I do.
At any rate, I didn't insult anyone. Rather, I mocked an argument I've heard numerous times. You, on the other hand, are insulting people directly; above, you say that I'm not very smart, and below, you call Litigation an ass. How would you assess yourself?
Mocking an argument is insulting to the people making that argument. If you have anything concrete, you can defuse it through logic and that'll be that. You chose the alternative and thus opened the door to this. I made a comment based on what was in clear view. You don't look smart when you write **** like this, and Litigation makes an ass of himself by being arrogant and derisive instead of constructive. If it's insulting to you, maybe some introspection would do you good, because this is exactly how you come off to others.
Learn to read. It's all been stated in this very thread.
Namely, to paraphrase:
- Epic Tier play is the least commonly played as it is
- Characters are designed to top out at Lv. 30. Period.
- The assumptions written into 4e's descriptions of Heroic, Paragon and Epic tiers would have to be completely discarded.
40 pages on your ilk? It doesn't take 40 pages.
Except that it has. Read the Player's Handbook. And the DMG.
No, it affects everyone involved because the efforts that went into more levels for the JRPG weeaboos could've instead gone into more options for the levels where most people actually, you know, play D&D. Heroic and Paragon Tiers.
The only concrete points you make are the three first ones, and they can easily be overridden by a single sourcebook.
The only concrete points you make are the three first ones, and they can easily be overridden by a single sourcebook.
Capstone powers are not so easilly overridden. I have already pointed out at the top of this page how a handful of EDs weild power far beyond their numbers, and other EDs wield similar power.
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
There's really nothing wrong with that argument. If people would like to play beyond level 30 and beOMFG, MAI CHARACTERS ARE THE L337, then so be it. WOTC has already made quite enough money for material relating to the Heroic and Paragon tiers(anecdotal evidence).
I'm pretty sure one book can't hurt that much. 3.x, and 3.5 came out with a good number of books that I never wanted to even bother with.
Capstone powers are not so easilly overridden. I have already pointed out at the top of this page how a handful of EDs weild power far beyond their numbers, and other EDs wield similar power.
That's a definite point of issue. It's a problem, but assuming WotC was adamant about proceeding, I'm sure they could figure out a solution.
The only concrete points you make are the three first ones, and they can easily be overridden by a single sourcebook.
Not up until this point was this clear to me, but I realize now that you must be new to this "1ntarwebz" thing. You should know a certain amount of condescension and veiled hostility is the bread and butter of posturing in debates here. That said, you're waayy overdoing it, and for all the finger pointing you're doing, you've demonstrated yourself to be at least as bad about "not being able to handle dissent" and "acting extremely arrogant and childish" as the folks you accuse. The terse, "We're done," didn't earn you any points either. Rule #1 of the internet is: "Don't take anything personally. (Otherwise, you'll be here forever trying to defend yourself.)"
Fact of the matter is, there aren't many concrete points to be made on either side of this debate, especially since we're discussing an extremely hypothetical product containing equally hypothetical expansions to the ruleset -- in short, on both sides we're speculating, and we're all pulling most of it out of our butts, given that there's really nothing solid to go on. If you keep expecting "concrete" arguments, you're going to keep not getting any, because this discussion is firmly based in the realm of opinion.
You persist in giving examples of where enemies could be placed, that could have level 40+ numbers attached to them, and ignore the fundamental point.
There are any number of characters who, because of their level 30 capstone powers, have "I win" buttons that don't rely on character level. Your level 43 Solo cannot kill a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, no matter how much damage it deals. Likewise, an Elven Demigod can always hit, whatever the absurd defenses Ao has. And the Magster can set up a force field that only works against the target in a single action, rendering your super-deific powers moot.
What if godlike monsters had the ability to remove your round of play or your turn completely? Destroyed your armor and made you forget your uber powers. Maybe it had the ability to level drain you into uselessness.
I really like your examples BTW, very awesome characters. I'v only been to 11th level as my cap before I got stepped on.:D But many of my friends have already beyond their 5th level 30 characters since 4e's release. (we often play daily)
I just hold to the opinion that if a player can get that powerful, so can a monster. Monsters do not have caps after all and mega powerful monsters can be given classes, PP's and ED's.;) All of a sudden we have monsters that can be MORE powerful than any PC could ever hope to become with the current rules.
[edit] Instead of making this thread a childish ******* contest of personal attacks, lets stay on focus and be constructive. We need ideas, not bs. Instead of saying "THATS STUPID AND YOU FAIL!" give alternative ideas on how to improve level 30 play for those who wish to continue playing at level 30.
You persist in giving examples of where enemies could be placed, that could have level 40+ numbers attached to them, and ignore the fundamental point.
There are any number of characters who, because of their level 30 capstone powers, have "I win" buttons that don't rely on character level. Your level 43 Solo cannot kill a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, no matter how much damage it deals. Likewise, an Elven Demigod can always hit, whatever the absurd defenses Ao has. And the Magster can set up a force field that only works against the target in a single action, rendering your super-deific powers moot.
All of which need to be fixed anyway. They are garbage, every last one of them. Anything which breaks the game sucks.
Anyway...
The real reason I don't want level 31+ junk is because:
1) It will probably suck.
2) I, like most people, will never use it and would rather they invest time/effort/money into things I will use.
3) It will detract from future products if they continue to support it in future handbooks, like they did with Epic in 3.x. There were pages in every book which were useless to me.
Nevertheless, I can see the potential for playing past the thirtieth level. In Dark Age of Camelot, many players prefered to try out new charcaters and new settings, but some prefered to play the same character for year after year, but doing new adventures with that character and his companions.
In Dark Age of Camelot, one of the solutions was that growth after a certain point was incremental and extremely slow. Nonetheless, because of minor edges over enemies in warfare and mostly because of attachment to a character, people were willing to tolerate the slight accrual of power.
However, since a Massively Multi-player On-line Roleplaying Game has thousands of players, there was some point (in the minds of some) in boasting of one's seniority and experience. I am not sure how that plays out in a more limited environment.
The only reason that your character's meaningful is because he's on a journey. The only reason that journey is meaningful is because it has a destination, after which the journey stops. If your DM can't bring you to the end of that journey within 30 levels he's woefully incompetent as a DM.
Erm... this has probably been mentioned, but i'll give you my point of view... have you ever heard that terrible song by Miley Cirus called The Climb? I'll save you the pain of listening to it and just say, it regurgitates this age old wisdom: it's not the destination that makes a journey interesting, it's the path you take. The Eternal Seeker ED even tips it's hat at this, as this character never really reaches a solid destination... just keeps seeking for all eternity (handy that). Granted, we are going to have differing opinions in this open marketplace of ideas that is a forum. I accept this and won't tell you that your preferences are wrong.
I'll neglect to comment on the last statement in the quote though.
The big threat from the Far Realm to the cosmologies is that it corrupts and warps those cosmologies into something that the Gods and Spirits at least don't want. The primordials likely don't want the 'gods' of the Far Realm mucking up their home either.
That's what makes the Far Realm so Cthulhu-like. It's all about something from beyond that warps reality by it's mere presence into something that's anathema to life as we know it. Whenever areas get a portal to the Far Realm they warp just from its presence as it leaks out through the portal.
If the Far Realm was exclusively Epic+ creatures than the Illithid, Beholders, fell taints, Aboleth, and other abberrants we have already would all be wiped out without a chance of survival yet Illithid, Beholders, and Aboleth are all indicated of being powerful races from the Far Realm. It's only singular, unique entities that are more powerful from what we know.
I really don't think we need another tier, but alternative improvement options could be doable. With AV2 we'll have boons to supplment magic items so those can help out with level 30 chars giving them bonuses not tied to class advancement.
I'll open up and list some examples of older edition aberrations tomarrow after I wake up.. On my way to bed. But trust me when I say that far realm is jam packed with things that could eat planets and crap out blackholes to wipe out a galaxy. Far realm is nothing new.;)
This thread amuses me. It seems all the 4e players are suddenly turning into grognards now that there's a hint that the foundations of their game may be about to get changed.
It's more of a concern that, existing parts of the game don't get enough support as it is *seriously too few Epic Monsters, that aren't Elites or Solos*, and that the balance is already screwy at Epic apparently. (not got there yet so I'm not going to give my final verdict on it)
And on my part, I think "raising the cap" is a boring and unimaginative way of doing Post Game content. Especially since really, there's no good reason to do so.
It's more of a concern that, existing parts of the game don't get enough support as it is *seriously too few Epic Monsters, that aren't Elites or Solos*, and that the balance is already screwy at Epic apparently. (not got there yet so I'm not going to give my final verdict on it)
And on my part, I think "raising the cap" is a boring and unimaginative way of doing Post Game content. Especially since really, there's no good reason to do so.
Bingo! There's absolutely nothing that's "post-Epic" that couldn't just be Epic, and simply adding new levels to gain isn't a very imaginative way of handling it -- which is made all the worse by the fact that 4E is designed to close out at 30th-level.
That said, just because you've dinged your character's final ding doesn't mean you have to forever hand over your character sheet to the DM; there's no reason that a campaign couldn't continue indefinitely at 30th-level while the party tackles any number of high-level quests (ostensibly to completely your Epic Destiny Quest, though even that is indefinite in scope). Characters can collect artifacts and battle against threats to the multiverse. Heck, they can even try their hand at something truly "epic", like uniting and leading entire plane to war!
That's the scope of Epic tier. There's no scope bigger than that.
You persist in giving examples of where enemies could be placed, that could have level 40+ numbers attached to them, and ignore the fundamental point.
There are any number of characters who, because of their level 30 capstone powers, have "I win" buttons that don't rely on character level. Your level 43 Solo cannot kill a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, no matter how much damage it deals. Likewise, an Elven Demigod can always hit, whatever the absurd defenses Ao has. And the Magster can set up a force field that only works against the target in a single action, rendering your super-deific powers moot.
Wow!
So, would those abilities need to be rewritten to be workable beyond 30th level? or could some simple device be added? (Say that the PCs level is added as a POWER NUMBER which "beyonder" level being needs to breach before it gets to smack the PCs.
What do Gods do when confronted by a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, an Elven Demigod, and the Magster w/force field t-o-w-a-t-t?
It's more of a concern that, existing parts of the game don't get enough support as it is *seriously too few Epic Monsters, that aren't Elites or Solos*, and that the balance is already screwy at Epic apparently. (not got there yet so I'm not going to give my final verdict on it)
And on my part, I think "raising the cap" is a boring and unimaginative way of doing Post Game content. Especially since really, there's no good reason to do so.
With the release of the 4e epic book, these issues will probably be solved, which means beyond epic play is still possible.
With the release of the 4e epic book, these issues will probably be solved, which means beyond epic play is still possible.
4ed epic book? I can only assume you mean DMG3, which is going to be able to solve none of those problems. MM3 might be able to solve the lack of monsters(although I'm sure it won't be able to truly "equalize" the tiers). Neither of those books solve the mentioned balance problem nor would they be able to change any of his other arguments(which I agree with entirely).Wow!
So, would those abilities need to be rewritten to be workable beyond 30th level? or could some simple device be added? (Say that the PCs level is added as a POWER NUMBER which "beyonder" level being needs to breach before it gets to smack the PCs.
What do Gods do when confronted by a Self Forged Raven Consort in Soulforged plate, an Elven Demigod, and the Magster w/force field t-o-w-a-t-t?
Round 1: Magster True Portals and steps through, then APs and casts MAgic Circle against Immortals around the god. The Elven Demigod follows, then burns his encounter powers to get his demigod recharge going. While he at it, deal with any non-immortal allies who could break the circle for him. the Self Forged is rather redundant at this point, but he can step into the circle to keep the god from being bored. The Horisonwalker/warmaster, meanwhile, actionpoint chains to give everyone a billion actions.
Round 2, elven Demigod unleashes more crits than you have HP. If the Horizonwalker's from Windrise ports (or started as a bard), he joins in with a truely infinite number of Melee Basic Attacks.
Yeah, sorry. Dmg3 with its epic level play focus.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=19263714&postcount=1
If the Far Realm was exclusively Epic+ creatures than the Illithid, Beholders, fell taints, Aboleth, and other abberrants we have already would all be wiped out without a chance of survival yet Illithid, Beholders, and Aboleth are all indicated of being powerful races from the Far Realm. It's only singular, unique entities that are more powerful from what we know.
Maybe there's a reason why illithds, beholders, and aboleths are so often found in the material world. Maybe they fled the Far Realm to be safe from the true horrors that lurk beyond the borders of reality.
Alternatively, the true lords of the far realm might be so unimaginably powerful that even the most powerful illithds, beholders, and aboleths are as nothing by comparison. They could be crushed as easily as ants, but just as most people take little notice of the average ant, the lords of the Far Realm take no notice of lesser aberrants.
Again, I'm not trying to support the Far Realm as the sole location from which super-epic threats could come, but the mere existence of lesser aberrants is no proof of the non-existence of greater aberrants.
And on my part, I think "raising the cap" is a boring and unimaginative way of doing Post Game content. Especially since really, there's no good reason to do so.
Nor is there a particular pressing reason not to. Just because you aren't interested doesn't mean nobody is. None of us in this thread have any hard numbers to use as evidence in support of either side of the issue.
Sure the mechanical balance at epic tier is tenuous at best, and any post level 30 play would probably only become more imbalanced. To me however that's all the more reason to get some official support.
As to the matter of more levels being boring, that's a subjective opinion at best. D&D is a game where gaining levels is and always has been the most blatant measure of power. Could an alterantive growth mechanic be introduced for post-epic play, yes, but to all of a sudden change that premise would be a far greater change to the very fundamental principles of the game then any flavor concerns over where all these new level appropriate threats are coming from.
Once you have your level 30 capstone, what abilities could you POSSIBLY get from there?
Pure number progression is easy enough, but mere numbers stop being important when, As I pointed out, you can destroy the world on a whim.
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
This reminds me of dbz syndrome.:D
And just for the hell of it: "It's over 9,000!"
This reminds me of dbz syndrome.:D
Precisely! That's exactly what it is.
This reminds me of dbz syndrome.:D
And just for the hell of it: "It's over 9,000!"
"I can blow up the entire galaxy, but I can't kill THIS ONE FREAKING GUY."
really need an update on this please!
Agreed! Now that this seminar has actually occurred (starting at 4PM today, Indianapolis time), can someone who was actually in attendance please come and clear up this silliness?
Agreed! Now that this seminar has actually occurred (starting at 4PM today, Indianapolis time), can someone who was actually in attendance please come and clear up this silliness?
As far as I can tell either no one attended, or nothing was said that was worth mentioning. I'll try to inquire deeper though since I know what will happen if I don't find someone who actually attended. *sigh* I hate the internet sometimes.
This reminds me of dbz syndrome.:D
Yup.
As far as I can tell either no one attended, or nothing was said that was worth mentioning. I'll try to inquire deeper though since I know what will happen if I don't find someone who actually attended. *sigh* I hate the internet sometimes.
Let's face it: rational minds weren't expecting much to be said anyway. After all, it's an afternoon seminar about improving high-level play in your game -- it's not like there was really even a snowball's chance in Hell of them introducing new rules here.*
*Dr Hook, counting his chickens prior to their hatching.
Let's face it: rational minds weren't expecting much to be said anyway. After all, it's an afternoon seminar about improving high-level play in your game -- it's not like there was really even a snowball's chance in Hell of them introducing new rules here.*
*Dr Hook, counting his chickens prior to their hatching.
The problem isn't rational minds. The problem is the people who read the seminar description, jumped to conclusions, and are going to be posting complaining about those conclusions not happening 3-6 months from now. *sigh*
The problem isn't rational minds. The problem is the people who read the seminar description, jumped to conclusions, and are going to be posting complaining about those conclusions not happening 3-6 months from now. *sigh*
...Isn't that irrational?
This reminds me of dbz syndrome.:D
Did someone actually mention DBZ? I feel sick now.
Hey! Some people actually really enjoyed DBZ. Furthermore the fact that it was, and still is, a highly successful series should speak for something.
...Isn't that irrational?
Yes. Extremely so.
i think the whole idea of gaming at that level, and allowing for some sort of quasi level system for gamming with your immortal. the only real hiccough i see here is that some ED's result in death. i know that one of the dark elf destinies results in the character being reborn as an eledrin or elf, so they can start over again.
i plan on making my players pay a heavy price for that immortality, and if they want to enjoy the benefits of their toil for beyond the closing of the DMG then thats what i want to give them.
Erm... this has probably been mentioned, but i'll give you my point of view... have you ever heard that terrible song by Miley Cirus called The Climb? I'll save you the pain of listening to it and just say, it regurgitates this age old wisdom: it's not the destination that makes a journey interesting, it's the path you take. The Eternal Seeker ED even tips it's hat at this, as this character never really reaches a solid destination... just keeps seeking for all eternity (handy that). Granted, we are going to have differing opinions in this open marketplace of ideas that is a forum. I accept this and won't tell you that your preferences are wrong.
Thing is, it is actually false.
While it is true that it is "the journey" which makes a story interesting, as it turns out, a story which is purely journey, without destination, sucks. Why is this?
The answer is that all stories have a beginning, middle, and end. A story without an end is not a story at all, and it turns out that without an end, there is no closure, and closure adds a great deal of value. This is why anime often only last a single season and are MEANT to do so, whereas American TV shows drag on forever until their ratings peter out/they cost too much to produce and they die. Some anime do drag on forever... and often suffer in quality for it, containing filler and taking too long to resolve the plot, as well as making the plot increasingly worse/repetitive/stupid.
Things which never end - comic books, syndicated comics, soap operas, long-running TV programs, ect. - eventually reach the point where they start to repeat themselves, where they cannot resolve major issues because it will mess up character dynamics, where they have to face increasingly contrived conditions, or simply reach the point where the premise begins to stretch thin. This is why Larson ended the Far Side, why Waterson ended Calvin and Hobbes, why Berke ended Bloom County. This is why Babylon 5 lasted five seasons and why trilogies are trilogies. Over time there are decreasing returns and if you go on too long, there are certain valuable character dynamics which must be resolved or else you will frustrate the audience.
Stories which don't end will in fact end, but they will end when they cease to be interesting. If you end a story before that point, you end with it while it is still fun, and it makes it much stronger. Being concise is a virtue.
So, would those abilities need to be rewritten to be workable beyond 30th level? or could some simple device be added? (Say that the PCs level is added as a POWER NUMBER which "beyonder" level being needs to breach before it gets to smack the PCs.
Doesn't work and is garbage besides.
But the people arguing "Well, the level 30 capstones are broken" are wrong. Why? Not because they're not broken - they're horribly broken. But its not a valid counterargument, because the broken crap needs to be fixed. Its really just a symptom of WotC not playtesting epic really at all. "Oh, that looks okay."
While it is true that it is "the journey" which makes a story interesting, as it turns out, a story which is purely journey, without destination, sucks. Why is this?
Endings can lead to new beginnings.
In my Eberron campaign the players played one story that started at 1st level and ended at 7th (consisting of 4 smaller stories, one of which could even be considered "filler"). After wards campaign transitioned to a more episodic play-style, but these episodes are building to the start of a new larger story.
Stories can begin and end, and yet the same characters can transition through them. Old plot-hooks can be solved only to lead to new plot-hooks.
************
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
This is why anime often only last a single season and are MEANT to do so, whereas American TV shows drag on forever until their ratings peter out/they cost too much to produce and they die. Some anime do drag on forever... and often suffer in quality for it, containing filler and taking too long to resolve the plot, as well as making the plot increasingly worse/repetitive/stupid.
Inuyasha. Rurouni Kenshin. And I'm expecting it for Naruto too. It's so sad to see it happen. And when those anime finally did end, it wasn't a satisfying ending. It wasn't like the ending they could have had, 50 episodes back, that would have been fulfilling and clear, with a perfectly climactic finish. They petered out and slowed down and then the last episode was just a "meh, I guess we're done. Whatever". It's very frustrating to have happen with some of your favorite characters, and I can imagine how much more frustrating it would be for a DnD game.
So yeah, it's pretty clear to anyone familiar with that type of "story" that a story without an ending is ****. Admittedly, when it does end, you'll wish it could continue. But if it does... if it continues endlessly... it does not bode well for the "story".
Hey! Some people actually really enjoyed DBZ. Furthermore the fact that it was, and still is, a highly successful series should speak for something.
One day a long time ago, I was channel surfing and passed cartoon network. DBZ was on and some blonde freak was screaming and powering up his (my hair color changes) aura. I continued on in my channel surfing mission to find something to watch. 10 minutes later through complete failure at my mission I once again passed cartoon network, Dbz was still on and the same blonde freak was still screaming.
Some people actually really enjoy listening to news radio. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna crack jokes about it. Even more so with the color changing oddballs who can destroy worlds.
Anyways, I still say there is a market for beyond epic play.
Bel
Inuyasha. Rurouni Kenshin. And I'm expecting it for Naruto too. It's so sad to see it happen. And when those anime finally did end, it wasn't a satisfying ending. It wasn't like the ending they could have had, 50 episodes back, that would have been fulfilling and clear, with a perfectly climactic finish. They petered out and slowed down and then the last episode was just a "meh, I guess we're done. Whatever". It's very frustrating to have happen with some of your favorite characters, and I can imagine how much more frustrating it would be for a DnD game.
Eh you didn't really choose the best examples here. Rurouni Kenshin went into filler mode so that the manga could get ahead, and the ratings dropped as a result so the show was cancelled before it could move on to the next arc(which would have wrapped things up completely). Basically the same thing happened with Inuyasha(although there are some differences between the two, mostly in pacing). Naruto though has definatly fallen into the trap of never ending though, and it has become really horrible as a result. But it has insane popularity to keep it from dieing anytime soon.
So still no news from the seminar yesterday? I was hoping for some rules on making the post epic characters the movers and shakers behind the scenes of a new campaign.
Bel
Either no one atteneded the thing or there was no news said worth repeating. I'm leaning towards the latter. Basically I'm hoping for Critical Hits to do full fledged articles covering the happenings of Gencon. They have at least one person on their staff who had assumed that conference would be covering epic+ rules, so I figure they must have sent someone there. However if we don't hear anything in the next week, I think it is safe to say that there was no mention of epic+ characters. Although I'd say the odds of them having been mentioned at this point are less then 1%.
Usually when the argument gets to this point, someone says, "We'll just go 2 teh fAr ReAlM and fight bigger, tuffer worldzz!1! Don't h8t my game!!1"
...Yeah, I know. It doesn't make sense to me either.
You may not like how other people would like to run their game, however if they are having fun, I'm not sure it matters how much sense it makes to you.If Wizards releases a book which somehow enabled play after 30th level I probably wouldn't buy it... I tend to stop at 10th level because I dislike high-powered scenarios. However, if other people would have fun with it, then I say god bless them and I hope they have a good time.
I think this thread highlights a lot of problems with the way in which people see other people. The snarky reference to Dragonball Z is one of them. Those who like Dragonball Z and wish to play a game of pretend in that sort power-drama are vilified by those that don't.
The fact of the matter is: there is plenty of room, right now, in Dungeons and Dragons for both groups of people, and many more. I don't need to point out that with all of the options we have at this point, there are years worth of game play for various groups of people. If Wizards wishes to spend a little bit of time on something that you personally dislike, and you (not pointing any fingers, but rather speaking to this thread as a whole) in turn insult or vilify those who would like to see it, I recommend that you rethink how much emotion you have invested in this game.
It would be a much better hobby if people would simply take heart in the fact that people are having fun.
Play in a world
Play in a story
the diffrence is that when you play in a world (Online you guys now got me caling it sim) You build a world and the stories begin and end. SOmetimes you tell up to 5 stories per level.
when you play in a story it is one big begining middle and end...it might have some filler, but it mostly is 1 ongoing story.
I don't know witch is better, but I have played both.
How is enjoying playing your character a character flaw?
Oh, btw, I don't know how you figured it takes 4 hours to do 3 encounters. I'v done and seen 10 encounters done in 5 hours and thats with role play involved.;) 1, 8 hour day gets low levels around 3-4 level gains over here.
Holy crap, how do you manage it. My encounters last (even using software to track everything) on average about 30-45 minutes per encounter. What tricks does the DM do to speed things up?
One thing I love about 4E is that, using the core books alone, you can set up a fight with Orcus. But it's annoying that there isn't really enough material to envision how a campaign would work out. The stated goal of Orcus, for example, is to dethrone the Raven Queen. How the hell do you run that? I'd like to see a source book of something like "Among the Gods," for running campaigns that are about rubbing shoulders with the deities, and not being able to kill the actual deities, but definitely being able to kill demon princes and archdevils. The thing that stank about 3E's epic handbook is that it's purpose was to keep the exact same feel of the lower levels--they actually made a city where the common guards were epic level! What I want to see is a guide to running epic campaigns with a fundamentally different feel than the lower tiers.
On the other hand, once we actually got material like that, it would be nice to have material for going on to fight Asmodeus or a Primordial. My impression is that these beings are supposed to be just a hair more powerful than Orcus, meaning no 30th-level party could beat them, but a 35th or 40th level party might be able to. And I'd want that, because it would feel weird to have a wonderful time fighting Orcus and then have to stop the campaign immediately for lack of necessary rules.
Holy crap, how do you manage it. My encounters last (even using software to track everything) on average about 30-45 minutes per encounter. What tricks does the DM do to speed things up?
...How many players?!
Because from what I've seen, in a group of 5 or 6, the average encounter lasts from 2 to 3 hours.
Put me in the "we need better support for the epic tier" camp.
One thing I love about 4E is that, using the core books alone, you can set up a fight with Orcus. But it's annoying that there isn't really enough material to envision how a campaign would work out. The stated goal of Orcus, for example, is to dethrone the Raven Queen. How the hell do you run that? I'd like to see a source book of something like "Among the Gods," for running campaigns that are about rubbing shoulders with the deities, and not being able to kill the actual deities, but definitely being able to kill demon princes and archdevils. The thing that stank about 3E's epic handbook is that it's purpose was to keep the exact same feel of the lower levels--they actually made a city where the common guards were epic level! What I want to see is a guide to running epic campaigns with a fundamentally different feel than the lower tiers.
On the other hand, once we actually got material like that, it would be nice to have material for going on to fight Asmodeus or a Primordial. My impression is that these beings are supposed to be just a hair more powerful than Orcus, meaning no 30th-level party could beat them, but a 35th or 40th level party might be able to. And I'd want that, because it would feel weird to have a wonderful time fighting Orcus and then have to stop the campaign immediately for lack of necessary rules.
There are already stats for level 35 solos, 2 of which are primordials, which 2 levels is a hair stronger than orcus.
On the other hand, once we actually got material like that, it would be nice to have material for going on to fight Asmodeus or a Primordial. My impression is that these beings are supposed to be just a hair more powerful than Orcus, meaning no 30th-level party could beat them, but a 35th or 40th level party might be able to. And I'd want that, because it would feel weird to have a wonderful time fighting Orcus and then have to stop the campaign immediately for lack of necessary rules.
I looked up Orcus' build, and that guy is a frickin beast. Just his Touch of Death alone could possibly TPK a group(yes, I know it's a rechargeable power).
If Wizards releases a book which somehow enabled play after 30th level I probably wouldn't buy it... I tend to stop at 10th level because I dislike high-powered scenarios. However, if other people would have fun with it, then I say god bless them and I hope they have a good time.
I think this thread highlights a lot of problems with the way in which people see other people. The snarky reference to Dragonball Z is one of them. Those who like Dragonball Z and wish to play a game of pretend in that sort power-drama are vilified by those that don't.
The fact of the matter is: there is plenty of room, right now, in Dungeons and Dragons for both groups of people, and many more. I don't need to point out that with all of the options we have at this point, there are years worth of game play for various groups of people. If Wizards wishes to spend a little bit of time on something that you personally dislike, and you (not pointing any fingers, but rather speaking to this thread as a whole) in turn insult or vilify those who would like to see it, I recommend that you rethink how much emotion you have invested in this game.
It would be a much better hobby if people would simply take heart in the fact that people are having fun.
I think you missed the point: I don't give a damn how others play their game, and I'm happy to hear that they're having fun. That said, we're not discussing how others should play their game, we're discussing whether or not WotC should take the game in a certain direction. You may not think that what WotC does with D&D affects people's home games, but it absolutely does; every man-hour spent working on "post-Epic tier" is a man-hour not spent developing content for the existing Epic tier, which is right now demonstrably undersupported and imbalanced. This is in addition to the fact that absolutely no compelling reason has been given why official post-Epic content is necessary at all, an issue made all the more serious by the fact that such content implicitly demands that the framework of 4E be fundamentally changed by removing its clearly-defined endgame.
I think you missed the point: I don't give a damn how others play their game, and I'm happy to hear that they're having fun. That said, we're not discussing how others should play their game, we're discussing whether or not WotC should take the game in a certain direction. You may not think that what WotC does with D&D affects people's home games, but it absolutely does; every man-hour spent working on "post-Epic tier" is a man-hour not spent developing content for the existing Epic tier, which is right now demonstrably undersupported and imbalanced. This is in addition to the fact that absolutely no compelling reason has been given why official post-Epic content is necessary at all, an issue made all the more serious by the fact that such content implicitly demands that the framework of 4E be fundamentally changed by removing its clearly-defined endgame.
Exactly. All of it. Thank you.
[...] This is in addition to the fact that absolutely no compelling reason has been given why official post-Epic content is necessary at all, an issue made all the more serious by the fact that such content implicitly demands that the framework of 4E be fundamentally changed by removing its clearly-defined endgame.
Now, firstly, realise that i agree with you on the point that Epic gameplay needs more support. Additionally, i don't think Wizards will or should go for gameplay beyond 30th level characters... it would contradict what i see as their obvious intent and should be left to a third party. However, there's one thing i want to call into question:
How is the "clearly-defined endgame" a "fundamental" aspect of D&D 4E?
I realise that the three tiers with their thematic elements are all great for storytelling, but they aren't indispensable components of the game. We as players and DMs decide how to tell the story... so if we want the Epic Destinies to be just one more step forward rather than the final scene, that won't "fundamentally change" D&D as we know it. A story can still be told after epic levels, dice can still be rolled, and fun can still be had. Aren't those more the fundamental aspects of the game than "oh, it has to end"? Just my immediate thoughts.
How is the "clearly-defined endgame" a "fundamental" aspect of D&D 4E?
I realize that the three tiers with their thematic elements are all great for storytelling, but they aren't indispensable components of the game. We as players and DMs decide how to tell the story... so if we want the Epic Destinies to be just one more step forward rather than the final scene, that won't "fundamentally change" D&D as we know it. A story can still be told after epic levels, dice can still be rolled, and fun can still be had. Aren't those more the fundamental aspects of the game than "oh, it has to end"? Just my immediate thoughts.
Thank you for this.
The main reason for the three tiers having an end in the first books is more to do with the powers all being laid out for all the levels right from the get go. I think that beyond epic play would certainly be different, like epic rules were different in the previous edition. I also think that those that choose the end game Epic Destinies are choosing to end the character at level 30. For there to be a level 31, other ED's will have to be available that will allow the character to keep going, instead of retiring in some way.
It can be done, the question is.... Will it be done? I don't think Wizards were stupid enough to think that a level cap would be adhered to, but I could be wrong. A Beyond Epic Playbook might not have been a concept they thought of, but I dare say that it is something to think about now.
Thank you for this.
The main reason for the three tiers having an end in the first books is more to do with the powers all being laid out for all the levels right from the get go. I think that beyond epic play would certainly be different, like epic rules were different in the previous edition. I also think that those that choose the end game Epic Destinies are choosing to end the character at level 30. For there to be a level 31, other ED's will have to be available that will allow the character to keep going, instead of retiring in some way.
It can be done, the question is.... Will it be done? I don't think Wizards were stupid enough to think that a level cap would be adhered to, but I could be wrong. A Beyond Epic Playbook might not have been a concept they thought of, but I dare say that it is something to think about now.
You're welcome.
A lot of EDs are pretty open-ended about what happens to you. With the Demigod ED, you go to be with the gods, yes... but that just changes -where- you adventure. Nothing about that necessarly means you -can't- go on. A lot of the others are even less extreme than that one, as far as what happens to your character. Admittedly, a few stop your character dead. Somtimes litterally. But a lot can be said for reflavouring and the fluff isn't by any means unyielding.
As for the framework of powers and effects... i haven't studied these in depth. I was under impression that the numbers proceeded in a roughly linear type of pattern, one that potentially lends itself to continued play even better than 3E ever did. I'm not sure i have the time or attention to devote to such a study, so i'll simply admit to ignorance, for the time being. That aside, there isn't "absolutely no reason" for post-epic gameplay... just too many issues to allow Wizards to take up that gauntlet.
A couple of Gen Con attendees over at EN World were at the seminar; it was basically a Q&A on high level play. They didn't talk about 30+ play; apparently, that part of the seminar's description was a mistake.
so 7 pages on nothing???
...How many players?!
Because from what I've seen, in a group of 5 or 6, the average encounter lasts from 2 to 3 hours.
Right now 3, but we've had encounters that last for over an hour. Like the young black dragon.
There are already stats for level 35 solos, 2 of which are primordials, which 2 levels is a hair stronger than orcus.
Thanks for the heads up on this... Now that I bothered to Google it, I know which books to look in, and now feel silly for not having taken a closer look at the relevant books (just getting back into DnD now after awhile of inactivity...)
Now my question is: has anyone actually run a fight with the level 35ers? How did it go?
A couple of Gen Con attendees over at EN World were at the seminar; it was basically a Q&A on high level play. They didn't talk about 30+ play; apparently, that part of the seminar's description was a mistake.
Awesome.
You're already powerful enough to slay gods at 30th, I don't really see what "tier" could be beyond it. Super Epic DeityTier: "It's the tier where you destroy the very fabric of causuality!"
Beyond epic is when you are powerful enough to slay other PCs.
The "monsters" will be characters pulled straight from the CharOP boards.
so 7 pages on nothing???
Yeah basically. We must be slipping. We should have been able to get 10 pages out of this.:P
Actually, it was. Above 20th level did not work well in 3rd edition. It was a general extension of the "anything above 12th level had severe playability issues" problem, but cranked up to 11.
More than 30 levels is a bad idea. Why? Because, frankly, epic already receives less support than the other tiers. Look at the number of epic monsters compared to heroic and paragon tier ones, and the decreasing amounts of feats, ect. This all makes sense, of course; 100% of people use heroic tier stuff, but a lower percentage use paragon and a lower percentage still epic. Something which is beyond epic is going to be used by EVEN FEWER people, and therefore will be mostly useless.
Post-epic junk will be mostly unusable.
MOREOVER, all the classes are designed to top out at level 30. Adding another tier means adding another tier of powers for every class.
I really would rather not have something like this.
You know what would be truly epic?
If you could possibly explain to me how you're disinterest in or distaste for an option invalidates it's potential validity as an option for anyone who might want to use it.
It doesn't make sense in any venue. It's an option. Don't like it, don't use it. But don't tell the rest of use we shouldn't have the option to use it.
One more thing. Post Epic would not, in fact, require a whole new tier or powers for each class. It could easily be done based on what epic destiny you chose instead.
I'd like it to be a choice between the two, personally, but there's no hard coded reason it has to be.
Also, just a general reply to multiple people, simply because I can't help it: No, you aren't automatically a god or god killer at level 30.
Trust me, I've done it.
The biggest problem I see with a uber-epic tier is that they already cramped to many of the movers and shakers of the cosmos under the supposed level 30 ceiling.
If the archdevil of the second hell is only a level 28 solo, I just don't see any room to add a whole new race of run-of-the-mill level 34 devils just because the PCs need them to get enough encounters to make annother 10 levels.
Every fight would basically be against the "cosmic entity of the week" with no more troops left to fight inbetween because all common troops made for that level range would cause the inconsistency of being too powerfull compared to their masters who have already been published with a level 30 limit for PCs in mind
So, make the Cosmic Tier not include increases to ac, hit bonus, hp, etc. You just get feats, powers retrainings, or only increase the things in the first list every other, or every 4 levels or something. Basically, for those levels, you get more and more options, but don't really get more raw power, as such.
Not only this, but the meta-plot expectations of the game would have to be tossed out. You fight small armies in heroic, world ending threats in paragon, and begin hacking your way through the ranks of the most powerful entities in the game. Look at the way epic monsters are done, lots of elites and solos. This is probably done because its hard to imagine foot-soldiers powerful enough to kill most armies (which is the case with epic level monsters vs. heroic ones). Can you imagine what kind of zany threats would have to be concocted to be a threat to level 31+ characters? They've already most likely killed either a god or a god-like entity? What's next? There just aren't enough powerful entities to keep a party amused for ten levels unless you just go on a God-stomping rampage, and then what do you do when you've killed the lot of them by level 37? Go back and initiate a battle-royal against the whole of the Abyss? Take down the Nine Hells Thermopylae style? What do you do once that's done and your still at level 39? What kind of plot would require you to do this? There's plenty of mythology and literature to justify the adventures you can have during Epic Tier, but I can't really recall a story where the Five Man Band needed to stomp 60% of the life out of the cosmos or defeat the whole of Hell and Tartarus in the course of a week. It just doesn't seem interesting or heroic.
War upon the Abyss? Battle through the Nine Hells to kill Asmodeus and return the Nine Hells to it's uber-ancient beauty? Avenge the death of Mystra, killing Shar, and then Cyric, taking the places of all three? Fight Even More Ancient Wyrms? (there's literally no limit to how old, huge, and powerful they can become, so why not?)
Also, levels are abstractions, so it really doesn't matter if two entities match up in terms of relative power, in the story, and relative level mechanically. It's irrelevant.
Zany (I agree that that's what they are, Nyronus) threats include the Far Realm getting opened (possibly through a PC boner), some dick releasing all the primordials (all of them), the PCs being misotheists and deciding that the gods suck and should die, etc. Epic PCs can't handle any of these, but I bet some people wouldn't mind giving it a shot.
Awesome. Hadn't even thought of the primordials example. I like it.
Something like this could also be used as a way explaining why the god are all of a sudden all lv.40+ instead of lv.30+. Perhaps a large portion of their power was being used just to keep primordials bound. Now with the prisons broken the gods are able to reconsolidated that power to achieve a strength they have not possessed since the dawn war. Stronger gods and the release of so many primordials could also mean that these masters could confer greater power on their servants as well, thus stronger angels and archons as well.
Perhaps a revived Tharizdun could mean a new surge of power within the abyss making all the demons within stronger than ever. Meanwhile Asmodeus uses the power of all the souls he has trapped within hell to break the curse placed upon him by his former divine master, allowing him to finally achive TRUE divine ascension and in the process strengthen all the other devils as well.
Sometimes instead of looking for stronger powers to challenge super-epic PCs, it can work just as well to create events that change the very fundamental balance of power in the multiverse.
Brilliant post. Your last paragraph is what i was hoping would be gotten to in this discussion. I simply do not want my half-elf bard to disapear into npcism when the last story arc leading to level 30 ends. I want to know what he does as a demi-god, or whatever I choose to make him. I want to play him during the Next Great Cosmic Event. To use FR, again, if Cyric breaks free from his prison, an epic group won't be able to take him out. he is not a minor god, or a middle tier god, he's immensely powerful. Stopping him will require action by gods or god-like beings, not mortals about to ascend to demi-godhood. Same thing with Asmodeus. All your ideas could be put into one Cosmic group of interconnected story arcs.
Is he even statted, as of right now? I didn't think many, if any, of the actual gods were.
One more idea for what I've been calling Cosmic Tier.
Powers involving commanding forces. Angels, minions, forces of nature(as in actual storms, not just wind or lightning or rain on a small scale), armies. Lots of armies.
However, don't make another Tier (Cosmic?). Epic is about... changing the very nature of cosmos.
I suppsoe they made the gods a little to powerful (lesser gods being level 35). As a consequence greater deities are beyond PCs capabilities.
Yeah, but doing so would make the mm1 and 2 practically useless for the write ups on the things mentioned. It would also make the core game more linear, which isn't such a good thing.
to your first sentence. Eh? Because of one group's campaign? Does the death of orcus make his write-up useless? Would a series of published adventures for FR that culminated in the destruction of whatever the heck that empire that's encroaching on crap is called make the write-up for that empire useless?
The answers to those questions is no, by the way.
If the suggestions you're objecting to were inacted, the things mentioned would exist exactly as in the mm 1 and 2 before a particular campaign reaches that point, and then for that campaign they would change, possibly temporarily.
To your second sentence. No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't affect the core game in any way, because it would simply be one Cosmic Tier campaign hook, not core cannon.
This is fantasy. If nothing else then once I've slain every dragon in the world and gained god-like power I will peel back the veil of realty and realize that my world is just a small speck of dust in a greater reality, then in this greater world I will slay greater dragons who make the dragons of my original world look like pale dream-like shadows, then when I have slain all of those dragons and gained even greater god like power I will peel back the veil again and realize that even this greater world was but a mere speck of dust in an even greater reality, and so on so forth.
Sort of this. :P
I have a character that will, mechanics or no, assuming he doesn't die, eternally continue to explore new realms and levels of existence. He will literally never stop until there is, again, literally nothing more to explore. And then, if possible, he will cause there to be more to explore. He will create things. Experiment. Start a new universe based on different principles than what he has encountered. He will cause himself to be reborn inumerable numbers of times to experience different life cycles. He will simply never stop. He is the rare mortal that can be completely confident in saying that he will love becoming immortal. Even eternal, if possible. I love that character because he is closest to my internal ideal, of all the characters I've played.
At some point he will logically reach a point where I will no longer be able to imagine what he is going to be experiencing. Demi-godhood is not that point. There are meaningful, interesting, dynamic conflicts that can be explored at that point of power.
Further, not every epic destiny involves deification, so all points about how deities tend to be super independent(which i'm not sure is even accurate in the first place), making post epic play antithetical to party play aren't terribly valid, so far as I can tell.
as an addendum to everything I've said so far in this thread: I rather wish they hadn't made levels 21-30 so godly. I wish the power increase rate had remained about the same through all three tiers, to some extent. I mean, epic is fun, but it's a little wonky sometimes, and makes it really hard to play a less cinematic toned campaign into high levels.
The biggest problem I see with a uber-epic tier is that they already cramped to many of the movers and shakers of the cosmos under the supposed level 30 ceiling.
If the archdevil of the second hell is only a level 28 solo, I just don't see any room to add a whole new race of run-of-the-mill level 34 devils just because the PCs need them to get enough encounters to make annother 10 levels.
Every fight would basically be against the "cosmic entity of the week" with no more troops left to fight inbetween because all common troops made for that level range would cause the inconsistency of being too powerfull compared to their masters who have already been published with a level 30 limit for PCs in mind
So, make the Cosmic Tier not include increases to ac, hit bonus, hp, etc. You just get feats, powers retrainings, or only increase the things in the first list every other, or every 4 levels or something. Basically, for those levels, you get more and more options, but don't really get more raw power, as such.
No no no no no! The whole potential fun of post-epic levels is getting a chance to take on the gods/primordials! That can't happen without precious defense and attack bonuses! I WANT "cosmic entity of the week," just with resources necessary to turn it into a full-fledged adventure.
On the other hand, maybe we've discovered the secret of how the gods stay on top while empires rise and fall: there aren't enough sources of XP for any mortal to level up to the point where they could actually challenge the gods.
My point is that when we add this to these speculations then the Far Realm is not the place where to hide your post-30 dreams.
I just thought to add this.
War upon the Abyss? Battle through the Nine Hells to kill Asmodeus and return the Nine Hells to it's uber-ancient beauty? Avenge the death of Mystra, killing Shar, and then Cyric, taking the places of all three? Fight Even More Ancient Wyrms? (there's literally no limit to how old, huge, and powerful they can become, so why not?)
Also, levels are abstractions, so it really doesn't matter if two entities match up in terms of relative power, in the story, and relative level mechanically. It's irrelevant.
Why do you need an extra tier to support any of those campaign arcs? Everything within the Abyss can already be killed at level 30(although requiring some hard fought battles). As we already have stats for evil gods that can theoretically be killed, I don't see any reason that Asmodeus couldn't be at the high range of that as well(we just need stats for him). For the other gods you mention, I'm sure that they could be within that range as well. Oh and dragons do die of old age, so there is indeed a limit to how old, huge, and powerful they can become.
Epic Level Handbook for 3ed was used only once, for one party. We played it, we had our fun but we didn't want to play this way anymore. Reason was simple: not enough challenges, not enough plots and so on. It is hard to think a way to keep level 40 PCs in their toes. It was hard in 3ed and I think it will be even harder in 4ed because at this moment most of the greatest powers of the Universe will not be even level 40.
If there will be post-30 stuff then... It can't be something about killing stuff (I mean you have to kill 10 deities to get a level, roughly saying), it must be about storytelling with occasional deity-slaying but this doesn't need to be ruled. But this is how I see things...
Also, levels are abstractions, so it really doesn't matter if two entities match up in terms of relative power, in the story, and relative level mechanically. It's irrelevant.
This. We can add new high level grunts without making them thematically more powerful than already existent archdevles, demon princes, gods, primordials and what not.
Example: In super epic play, you might fight Lv.38 balors (that aren't elites), and eventually Lv.49 balor minions. Those Lv.49 minions don't mean that Orcus was a chump, they mean that the PCs have reached such heights of power that they can slay balors with one swing.
This is already much how the game works for Lv.1-30. It only makes sense for it to continue doing so.
This. We can add new high level grunts without making them thematically more powerful than already existent archdevles, demon princes, gods, primordials and what not.
Example: In super epic play, you might fight Lv.38 balors (that aren't elites), and eventually Lv.49 balor minions. Those Lv.49 minions don't mean that Orcus was a chump, they mean that the PCs have reached such heights of power that they can slay balors with one swing.
This is already much how the game works for Lv.1-30. It only makes sense for it to continue doing so.
How bout the infernal kobold from the positive material plane. That's level 31 and regenerates its entire hp total each round. You think 7 or 8 of these would be a challenge?
This. We can add new high level grunts without making them thematically more powerful than already existent archdevles, demon princes, gods, primordials and what not.
Example: In super epic play, you might fight Lv.38 balors (that aren't elites), and eventually Lv.49 balor minions. Those Lv.49 minions don't mean that Orcus was a chump, they mean that the PCs have reached such heights of power that they can slay balors with one swing.
This is already much how the game works for Lv.1-30. It only makes sense for it to continue doing so.
Yes, but you can't populate a tier entirely with minions, or non-elites, or solos (that's one of the big problems with Epic Tier).
If you can't come up with any elites, or god-forbid, any solos, there's a problem.
Yes, but you can't populate a tier entirely with minions, or non-elites, or solos (that's one of the big problems with Epic Tier).
If you can't come up with any elites, or god-forbid, any solos, there's a problem.
I am willing to bet that with gods and angels and demons we could get atleast to level 40
Well if the new dark sun is anything like the old one, there very well may be game content beyond 30th, but I think it will be different than just continuing to level. It will be more like gaining additional powers in exchange for huge chunks of XP. You know like 1,205,000 xp to turn any 1-10th level daily power into an at-will or 11-20th encounter power into an at-will, or 21-30th daily into an encounter power. Or something along the lines of that. with of course the way to turn into a dragon by getting followers.
I rather think that turning into a dragon will be an ED ending with the transformation on level 30
Rather than just Jack Teh Levelz!
Something you know... innovative. And while they are it they could give us some more damn monsters that aren't Elites or Solos at Epic.
Some here keep talking about another "tier" beyond Epic. (to level 40) I don't think this is the way to do it. My belief is that levels 31 and above will be done with replacing already earned power slots, and taking addition beyond epic power packs that would be like the PP's and ED's, ones that would mostly have utility powers that either turn previous encounter into At Wills, or Dailies into Encounters, or perhaps have something to do with movement, stealth and a varity of different things that does not involve damage. If beyond epic play is introduced, it should not have yet another level cap.
To be honest, Dark Sun could end up introducing beyond Epic play. Think about this, those Dragon-mages that rule the world are more than likely beyond the normal level tiers. I wouldn't doubt some sort of introduction here, with a book to detail it later.
Those guys might be "super powerful", but why would they be more powerful than Abeir's Primordials, or Eberron's Demon Rajahs? Why would Dark Sun's villains be more powerful than the ancient dragons, demon princes, archdevils, exarchs, and deities that exist in all the other campaign settings?
Some here keep talking about another "tier" beyond Epic. (to level 40) I don't think this is the way to do it. My belief is that levels 31 and above will be done with replacing already earned power slots, and taking addition beyond epic power packs that would be like the PP's and ED's, ones that would mostly have utility powers that either turn previous encounter into At Wills, or Dailies into Encounters, or perhaps have something to do with movement, stealth and a varity of different things that does not involve damage. If beyond epic play is introduced, it should not have yet another level cap.
The fact that Epic play in 3E didn't have a cap was one of its biggest problems; the higher your game went up in level, the more things fell apart. (And that's saying something when we're talking about an Epic-level system that didn't even work properly at "low" Epic levels!)
Not only is it a bad idea to add "post-Epic" levels to 4E, it's an even worse idea to allow them to progress indefinitely... assuming you care about your game being balanced, that is.
Example: In super epic play, you might fight Lv.38 balors (that aren't elites), and eventually Lv.49 balor minions. Those Lv.49 minions don't mean that Orcus was a chump, they mean that the PCs have reached such heights of power that they can slay balors with one swing.
This is already much how the game works for Lv.1-30. It only makes sense for it to continue doing so.
This sounds fine in theory but... Balor is elite because he is stronger than other demons, he has special abilities that others don't have, he has AP etc. There is thing to remember: monster should offer reasonable challenge to PC. There is no good way to explain how Balor lose his special abilities and AP but at the same time get new defenses, attack bonuses and so on. Problem increases even more with minion-balors. Even though they have only 1 HP, all other statistics are bigger than ever before. This is no way to represent the same balor, only in different levels. If go even further: if player don't confront Orcus at level 30 but wait when they are stronger than, thinking the same way, we should eventually meet Orcus the Elite, Orcus the Normal and Orcus minion. Same goes to deities also. This is not the way to solve things. With levels comes rise of statistics and this is not so simple to go with. Minion-Balor is something completely different then original Balor and it isn't believable, not to me and certainly not to my players (I can imagine them already: "Balor? Yeah, let's kick his nuts! What? I missed? But I have attack bonus that is far greater than the time we killed Orcus! I should only miss on natural 1! (metagaming, I know, but just to show my point)").
This sounds fine in theory but... Balor is elite because he is stronger than other demons, he has special abilities that others don't have, he has AP etc. There is thing to remember: monster should offer reasonable challenge to PC. There is no good way to explain how Balor lose his special abilities and AP but at the same time get new defenses, attack bonuses and so on. Problem increases even more with minion-balors. Even though they have only 1 HP, all other statistics are bigger than ever before. This is no way to represent the same balor, only in different levels. If go even further: if player don't confront Orcus at level 30 but wait when they are stronger than, thinking the same way, we should eventually meet Orcus the Elite, Orcus the Normal and Orcus minion. Same goes to deities also. This is not the way to solve things. With levels comes rise of statistics and this is not so simple to go with. Minion-Balor is something completely different then original Balor and it isn't believable, not to me and certainly not to my players (I can imagine them already: "Balor? Yeah, let's kick his nuts! What? I missed? But I have attack bonus that is far greater than the time we killed Orcus! I should only miss on natural 1! (metagaming, I know, but just to show my point)").
That's all only because you're looking at level in conventional sense. Back in 3E this would have been true, but not so in 4E. Character level is a linear progression, but monster level (and role as well) only has meaning relative to the the PCs. Minions are only minions relative to PCs, otherwise they would live in constant fear of paper cuts.
For example, the Abyssal Ghoul (lv.16 standard) and the Abyssal Ghoul Myrmidon (lv.21 minion) are thematically the same creature. What truly changes is the PCs, as they grow in power the monster becomes less threatening, but because of how the math works the is a limit to how long the lower level standard remains a viable opponent, so the rules provide us with a minion version. In doing so the PCs feel more powerful because this monster which was moderately challenging in paragon tier now falls easily in epic tier, while it's attacks and defenses are kept relevant (where as an encounter against the lv.16 standard would have been no more than a pointless joke of a fight for a team of epic heroes).
Likewise a balor is a major opponent for epic tier PCs, as conveyed by his elite status and the extra abilities it affords them. Compared to heroes in there 40s, however that same balor is now evenly matched opponent and by their 50s the heroes have grown powerful enough to slay balors by the dozen. Thematically the capabilities of the balor never changed, what changes is how those abilities are portrayed mechanically in order to represent the type of threat the monster poses to PCs of different levels.
For example, the Abyssal Ghoul (lv.16 standard) and the Abyssal Ghoul Myrmidon (lv.21 minion) are thematically the same creature.
Then what is Abyssal Ghoul Hungerer? I have always seen him as a weaker cousin of Myrmidon. My mistake.
Thematically the capabilities of the balor never changed, what changes is how those abilities are portrayed mechanically in order to represent the type of threat the monster poses to PCs of different levels.
So my point is still valid? In that regard that in this way there should be Elite-Orcus and Normal-Orcus and Minion-Orcus if players manage to play let's say to level 70?
Here's the summary of what transpired there
Here's the summary of what transpired there
funny, after all is said and done it seams so...well...disapointing...
Level 40 would be like playing Risk with all but one continent. You know its impossible to lose and you laugh maniacally the entire time. Fun with no real challenge.
Level 40 would be like playing Risk with all but one continent. You know its impossible to lose and you laugh maniacally the entire time. Fun with no real challenge.
Maybe level 40 is getting over the top, but I'd like to eventually have a character powerful enough close to that. My reason for this is Orcus, Demogorgon, and any other uber-demon.
A party of level 30 characters(4-6) would still lose against Orcus. That's sad, considering if you made it all the way to level 30, and you're supposedly EPIC, only to get nerfed by someone else.
Maybe level 40 is getting over the top, but I'd like to eventually have a character powerful enough close to that. My reason for this is Orcus, Demogorgon, and any other uber-demon.
A party of level 30 characters(4-6) would still lose against Orcus. That's sad, considering if you made it all the way to level 30, and you're supposedly EPIC, only to get nerfed by someone else.
are you kidding, plety of groups have fought even tiamat and vecna (lv 35 solos)...it isn't easy, and you CAN lose but it is most defenitly not assured...
I'm not sure how WOTC will feel about me posting his build up, so I'll give you a few details. Touch of Death- Recharges, and basically is an auto-kill against pretty much any character.
Dude's got 1,525 hp. He flies, and teleports. He kills people, and brings them back as Undead. Not to say the least, he has an armor class of 48. Good luck with that. His other defenses are even worse. Lowest one is 46, and that's his reflex.
I did an auto-build with a fighter on the CB, and leveled him up to 30th. At the most, hit points were around 225. Now tell me, exactly how many level 30's do you think you'd need to take him down? Average group is 4-6 characters. I doubt a group like that would be able to finish the job.
On another point, there's some released material(Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead) already out that shows encounters above level 30. I'm guessing that WOTC will eventually make something along the lines of post-epic play.
Encounters up to level 35 are supposed to be beatable by level 30 parties. That's also the reason why Bane didn't get stated in his dragon article since he would be above level 35 and they saw no point in stating something that can't be beaten by a level 30 party.As far as Orcus is concerned, he's usually solo'd at the char-opt boards and a reasonably hard encounter for a normal level 30 party (and is likely to be the end-encounter in E3). Tiamat and Vecna are almost overkill encounters for a level 30 party, but even they are beatable.
he has an armor class of 48. Good luck with that. His other defenses are even worse. Lowest one is 46, and that's his reflex.
15 (level) + 7-10 (stat) + 0-3 (proficiency) + 6 (enchantment) + 0-3 (expertise) = +28-37 to hit.
I did an auto-build with a fighter on the CB, and leveled him up to 30th. At the most, hit points were around 225.
I think you can get to ~250 with a barbarian starting with 20 Con.
Now tell me, exactly how many level 30's do you think you'd need to take him down?
4-6
Encounters up to level 35 are supposed to be beatable by level 30 parties. That's also the reason why Bane didn't get statted in his dragon article since he would be above level 35 and they saw no point in stating something that can't be beaten by a level 30 party.As far as Orcus is concerned, he's usually solo'd at the char-opt boards and a reasonably hard encounter for a normal level 30 party (and is likely to be the end-encounter in E3). Tiamat and Vecna are almost overkill encounters for a level 30 party, but even they are beatable.
15 (level) + 7-10 (stat) + 0-3 (proficiency) + 6 (enchantment) + 0-3 (expertise) = +28-37 to hit.
Most I could come up with is a +35 to hit. So your chances of hitting Orcus is 72.91 %. Not bad, but if you figure 7 out of 10 times, you're still not going to be dishing out a ton of damage against him.
I highly doubt a party of level 30 characters can take on a level 34-35 solo. It just seems too difficult.
Actually, the big nasties like Orcus are generally considered to easy for most parties. As was mentioned previously, char-opers routinely create builds that can solo Orcus without to much trouble. The original "Orcus-slayer" build was come up with before 4e even was officially released, and it could kill Orcus on round 1 well over 90% of the time (granted, the ability used in this build has since been errated, but there's still plenty of very powerful things out there).
Epic level characters have some really powerful tricks up their own sleeves, and can lock down solos quite easily (even without orb-cheese), not to mention many of them can come back from the dead in mid-battle!
The very high-level solos are certainly within the reach of most level 30 parties, especially if they're fresh and well-prepared.
Encounters up to level 35 are supposed to be beatable by level 30 parties. That's also the reason why Bane didn't get statted in his dragon article since he would be above level 35 and they saw no point in stating something that can't be beaten by a level 30 party.As far as Orcus is concerned, he's usually solo'd at the char-opt boards and a reasonably hard encounter for a normal level 30 party (and is likely to be the end-encounter in E3). Tiamat and Vecna are almost overkill encounters for a level 30 party, but even they are beatable.
15 (level) + 7-10 (stat) + 0-3 (proficiency) + 6 (enchantment) + 0-3 (expertise) = +28-37 to hit.
Most I could come up with is a +35 to hit. So your chances of hitting Orcus is 72.91 %. Not bad, but if you figure 7 out of 10 times, you're still not going to be dishing out a ton of damage against him.
I highly doubt a party of level 30 characters can take on a level 34-35 solo. It just seems too difficult.
The first math is correct. Includes a +2 epic destiny boost to an ability. It does not even mention: +1 prime shot and +1 versus quarry for an archer; or +1 fighter training and +1 warforged tactics for a fighter; or +3 human action surge; + various action point bonuses; + various power or even item bonuses; et cetera, et cetera. And none of the bonuses I mention are due to unusual broken combinations. Heck most come from Heroic feats and powers.
Oh, and let us not forget rerolls and reliable powers. And spells or prayers which inflict damage and conditions even on a miss.
(Now if we are fighting Orcus, I think it is fair to say it is a world-shattering event, so any story worth reading would throw in a nice set of artifacts dedicated to restoring the world to happiness and purity. Of course, the artifacts all implode in the final conflagration of Orcus's domain, and the heroes are left contemplating retirement in Elysium.)
Best I could get is this. I've got an average of + 36-38 to attack. My biggest attack is +42. I've done a lot of min/maxing here on the fly... so yeah. I still say Orcus would be near-impossible. I'd have to not die from his Touch of Death in order to save my strikers.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Aukan, level 30
Goliath, Fighter, Swordmaster, Chosen
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Constitution
Background: Chessenta
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 28, Con 26, Dex 13, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8.
AC: 33 Fort: 48 Reflex: 40 Will: 41
HP: 230 Surges: 17 Surge Value: 57
TRAINED SKILLS
Streetwise +20, Athletics +31, Heal +23
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +14, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +18, Endurance +21, History +16, Insight +18, Intimidate +15, Nature +20, Perception +18, Religion +16, Stealth +14, Thievery +14
FEATS
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Plate)
Level 2: Toughness
Level 4: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 6: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 8: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Focused Expertise (Greatsword)
Level 11: Steel Vanguard Veteran
Level 12: Back to the Wall
Level 14: Devastating Critical
Level 16: Paragon Defenses
Level 18: Great Fortitude
Level 20: Iron Will
Level 21: Offensive Resilience
Level 22: Epic Fortitude
Level 24: Epic Reflexes
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Epic Resurgence
Level 30: Triumphant Attack
POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Steel Serpent Strike
Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike
Fighter utility 2: Boundless Endurance
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Dizzying Blow
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Griffon's Wrath
Fighter daily 9: Victorious Surge
Fighter utility 10: Menacing Stance
Fighter encounter 13: Assured Strike (replaces Steel Serpent Strike)
Fighter daily 15: Defender's Gambit (replaces Comeback Strike)
Fighter utility 16: Iron Warrior
Fighter encounter 17: Exacting Strike (replaces Sweeping Blow)
Fighter daily 19: Strike of the Watchful Guard (replaces Dizzying Blow)
Fighter utility 22: Unyielding
Fighter encounter 23: Maneuvering Assault (replaces Griffon's Wrath)
Fighter daily 25: Fighter's Resurgence (replaces Victorious Surge)
Fighter encounter 27: Adamantine Strike (replaces Assured Strike)
Fighter daily 29: No Mercy (replaces Defender's Gambit)
ITEMS
Plate Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Dawn Warrior Godplate Armor +6, Vengeful Greatsword +6, Diamond Bracers (epic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Storm Gauntlets (epic tier), Helm of Opportunity (epic tier), Scarab of Invulnerability +6, Nullifying Ring (epic tier) (2), Stalwart Belt (epic tier), Strongheart Tattoo (epic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
as a watcher I saw a group of 6 characters of level 29 beat orcus, and it was not a 'fresh rest'...there was a dungeon crawl that was all done as 1 day (no extended rests) I think it was 6-7 encounters I know at least 3 fights and atleast 2 skill challenges and I was not there at the start...
they went in off a mile stone (So magic item and action points refreshed) 1 party member (rouge/ranger) was out of healing surges...and I want to say the warlord only had 1 or 2 also...
the death touch brings you to 0hp and dieing, not dead, so even though it was used 2 or 3 times the party always healed the person...in the first round everyone had +2 to hit, when the warlord action pointed everyone got +2 or 3 to hit, when anyone else action pointed they got +4 to hit +8 to damage, when thewarlord healed people with inspireing word they gained a +8 to hit and speed...the warlord also landed leading the attack in round 1 witch gave everyone a +8 or 9 to hit...
yea fighting as a team it was rough, and the wizard did die out right (out of surges, and paliden out of lay on hands, and ongoing from aura did him in)
Best I could get is this. I've got an average of + 36-38 to attack. My biggest attack is +42. I've done a lot of min/maxing here on the fly... so yeah. I still say Orcus would be near-impossible. I'd have to not die from his Touch of Death in order to save my strikers.
I have to ask why focus expertise great sword AND weapon expertise heavy blade and 1 handed training??
also great weapon prowess and weapon focus do not stack...I will go and draw up an optimized fighter to show you...
Best I could get is this. I've got an average of + 36-38 to attack. My biggest attack is +42. I've done a lot of min/maxing here on the fly... so yeah. I still say Orcus would be near-impossible. I'd have to not die from his Touch of Death in order to save my strikers.
I have to ask why focus expertise great sword AND weapon expertise heavy blade and 1 handed training??
also great weapon prowess and weapon focus do not stack...I will go and draw up an optimized fighter to show you...
ROFL yea, that is a good question since they Dont stack with expertise, as far as i am concerned focused expertise is the most useless thing in the game i have never gotten the feat to actually do something all i ever see is
Best I could get is this. I've got an average of + 36-38 to attack. My biggest attack is +42. I've done a lot of min/maxing here on the fly... so yeah. I still say Orcus would be near-impossible. I'd have to not die from his Touch of Death in order to save my strikers.
I have to ask why focus expertise great sword AND weapon expertise heavy blade and 1 handed training??
also great weapon prowess and weapon focus do not stack...I will go and draw up an optimized fighter to show you...
Oh gee, isn't that such a nice gesture.
I will enjoy my wasted time of having even built a character that far, and know that you won't get much farther than that. Enjoy.Seeing as how I don't normally play Fighters, I was unaware of this. I made a build fairly quick with CB, and wanted to hurry up so that I could hang out with my gf. So sue me.
first of all unlike your guys comments...I ment no disrespect when I said I could show you a better fighter...becuse point blank this is all academic...in reality no starting character is as good as one played for 2-3 levels let alone 25-30...
but here is the build I came up with adding con and wisdom (sometimes twice) to the damage and still keepining the att up there..
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 30
Goliath, Fighter, Pit Fighter, Demigod
Build: Great Weapon Fighter
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Wisdom
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 30, Con 20, Dex 12, Int 12, Wis 20, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.
AC: 45 Fort: 49 Reflex: 38 Will: 43
HP: 244 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 61
TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +20, Endurance +25, Athletics +32, Streetwise +20
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +16, Arcana +16, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +15, Dungeoneering +20, Heal +20, History +16, Insight +20, Nature +22, Perception +20, Religion +16, Stealth +16, Thievery +16
FEATS
Level 1: Potent Challenge
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Weapon Proficiency (Execution axe)
Level 8: Power Attack
Level 10: Markings of the Blessed
Level 11: Toughness
Level 12: Daunting Challenge
Level 14: Marked Scourge
Level 16: Devastating Critical
Level 18: Hero of Faith
Level 20: Danger Sense
Level 21: Axe Mastery
Level 22: Epic Fortitude
Level 24: Epic Reflexes
Level 26: Epic Will
Level 28: Martial Mastery
Level 30: Robust Defenses
POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Reaping Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Passing Attack
Fighter daily 1: Comeback Strike
Fighter utility 2: Boundless Endurance
Fighter encounter 3: Crushing Blow
Fighter daily 5: Dizzying Blow
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Thicket of Blades
Fighter utility 10: Strength From Pain
Fighter encounter 13: Giant's Wake (replaces Passing Attack)
Fighter daily 15: Quicksilver Stance (replaces Comeback Strike)
Fighter utility 16: Iron Warrior
Fighter encounter 17: Mountain Breaking Blow (replaces Crushing Blow)
Fighter daily 19: Strike of the Watchful Guard (replaces Dizzying Blow)
Fighter utility 22: No Surrender
Fighter encounter 23: Hack 'n' Slash (replaces Come and Get It)
Fighter daily 25: Transfixing Provocation (replaces Thicket of Blades)
Fighter encounter 27: Blood Rush (replaces Giant's Wake)
Fighter daily 29: No Mercy (replaces Quicksilver Stance)
ITEMS
Vorpal Execution axe +6, Champion's Elderscale Armor +6, Brooch of Vitality +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Giantkind Gloves (epic tier), Sapphire Scabbard (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
I don't really feel like going through the whole build(it's almost midnight where I'm at), but how did you get the HP and the AC so high? I'm not big on the Champion ElderScale Armor, simply because an attack doesn't necessarily have to deal damage. I have 2 of the Nullifying Rings just in case.
I see you've got the Brooch of Vitality which adds in 5 hp, and +3 to your NAD. Execution Axes don't count as a Heavy Blade, so the Sapphire Scabbard is off.
I'll have to take another look later tomorrow. I want to see how the AC came about, since the Elderscale Armor is just that. Scale Armor. Hmmmm, funny.... I chose GodPlate armor, and still came out with a crappy AC.
I don't really feel like going through the whole build(it's almost midnight where I'm at)
it is after 3 here on the east cost, so I am going to bed too
, but how did you get the HP and the AC so high? I'm not big on the Champion ElderScale Armor, simply because an attack doesn't necessarily have to deal damage. I have 2 of the Nullifying Rings just in case.
see below for hp and nads, but champ elder scale is +19 AC
I see you've got the Brooch of Vitality which adds in 5 hp, and +3 to your NAD. Execution Axes don't count as a Heavy Blade, so the Sapphire Scabbard is off.
you are correct about the scabbard...but the brooch adds 20hp and +6 to my nads
I'll have to take another look later tomorrow. I want to see how the AC came about, since the Elderscale Armor is just that. Scale Armor. Hmmmm, funny.... I chose GodPlate armor, and still came out with a crappy AC.
did you equip the armor?
in my case it is +25 (10+1/2 level)+13 (armor)+6 (enchantment)+1(Pit fighter pp)
I just realized that I didn't equip the armor.
All I know is we are capable of making 40th level monsters, so wotc needs to give our heroes a way to not only survive said encounter, but also win.
Level 30 cap is fine, but it's about epic stuff... and some deities (greater ones) are beyond reach, unfortunately. So, I would welcome whatever it takes to slay them... just for fun. Venturing into the Nine Hells and slaying every single archdevil seems ridiculous, but why not allow the players to do it? However, don't make another Tier (Cosmic?). Epic is about... changing the very nature of cosmos. I suppsoe they made the gods a little to powerful (lesser gods being level 35). As a consequence greater deities are beyond PCs capabilities.
I love that you used Cosmic Tier. I am now a happy wolf.
War upon the Abyss? Battle through the Nine Hells to kill Asmodeus and return the Nine Hells to it's uber-ancient beauty? Avenge the death of Mystra, killing Shar, and then Cyric, taking the places of all three? Fight Even More Ancient Wyrms? (there's literally no limit to how old, huge, and powerful they can become, so why not?) Also, levels are abstractions, so it really doesn't matter if two entities match up in terms of relative power, in the story, and relative level mechanically. It's irrelevant.
I'm pretty sure that there are ways for dragons to avoid dying of old age, beyond lichdom. I could be wrong, but either way it is possible for there to be dragons more powerful than what exists as of right now.
Next, this isn't primarily about needed an extra tier to support those story arcs. This is about wanting an extra tier, and listing story arcs that can be used in that extra tier, to counter the claim that there is nothing meaningful a party can do past level 30.
Only obvious reason I can think of offhand for WotC to come up with post-level 30 stuff, is for some content for DMG4. Maybe MM4 will become the equivalent of "deities and demigods" or "faiths and pantheons" of past editions.
I really hope they go with this. :P
To be honest, Dark Sun could end up introducing beyond Epic play. Think about this, those Dragon-mages that rule the world are more than likely beyond the normal level tiers. I wouldn't doubt some sort of introduction here, with a book to detail it later. Some here keep talking about another "tier" beyond Epic. (to level 40) I don't think this is the way to do it. My belief is that levels 31 and above will be done with replacing already earned power slots, and taking addition beyond epic power packs that would be like the PP's and ED's, ones that would mostly have utility powers that either turn previous encounter into At Wills, or Dailies into Encounters, or perhaps have something to do with movement, stealth and a varity of different things that does not involve damage. If beyond epic play is introduced, it should not have yet another level cap.
I'm down with beyond epic that isn't just another level cap. sounds fun.
I'm pretty sure that there are ways for dragons to avoid dying of old age, beyond lichdom. I could be wrong, but either way it is possible for there to be dragons more powerful than what exists as of right now.
Next, this isn't primarily about needed an extra tier to support those story arcs. This is about wanting an extra tier, and listing story arcs that can be used in that extra tier, to counter the claim that there is nothing meaningful a party can do past level 30.
There might have been a way in previous editions for dragons to extend their lives, but the 4ed Draconomicon clearly states that dragons do indeed die of old age. It does in fact give them one extra age category though, twilight, which is the only time that a dragon becomes weaker as it ages.
And I believe you are arguing against the wrong point then. The claim is(or at least should be) that there is nothing meaningful that a party can do past level 30 that they can't already do at 30.
Darksun probably won't introduce beyond epic play. But I do look forward to something that allows character progression beyond 30th level. As it is right now, a party of players fighting a level 40 mob will get wiped out almost constantly.
Players at level 30 couldn't stand up to "non weakened" primordials (who should be in the 38-50+ range)
I'm not sure how WOTC will feel about me posting his build up, so I'll give you a few details. Touch of Death- Recharges, and basically is an auto-kill against pretty much any character.
Dude's got 1,525 hp. He flies, and teleports. He kills people, and brings them back as Undead. Not to say the least, he has an armor class of 48. Good luck with that. His other defenses are even worse. Lowest one is 46, and that's his reflex.
I did an auto-build with a fighter on the CB, and leveled him up to 30th. At the most, hit points were around 225. Now tell me, exactly how many level 30's do you think you'd need to take him down? Average group is 4-6 characters. I doubt a group like that would be able to finish the job.
On another point, there's some released material(Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead) already out that shows encounters above level 30. I'm guessing that WOTC will eventually make something along the lines of post-epic play.
No offence to WOTC but those prebuilt pc generators and yes even the optimization links are garbage, with the right gear and feats a barbain can pump out over 1000 in damage and hit a 48 ac with a 2 (only cause 1 is a miss) same with ranger just about any other striker my group has laid hands on, job of the defender is to make sure that they can take something like touch of death (or at the very least take the hit and be rez later via items or players) whole point of a group is to work together and take down guys like that not just 1 defender (which isn't built to bring the pain like a striker in most cases anyways) with gear not only geared twords their job in the party or to compliment the party they are in expecially when they probably have an idea of their strengths and weaknesses of not only their group but also the monster at hand.