Campaign Setting 2012: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Campaign Setting 2012: Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
_NewbieDM_
Nov 28, 2011 12:22:45 Amazon spoiled it yesterday:

t.co/arhn0v5u

#2
kalontas
Nov 28, 2011 12:24:09 So it's another piece of Forgotten Realms this year? Sigh. They can do so much more.
#3
Duskweaver
Nov 28, 2011 12:30:55 At least it should be more useful outside the Realms than the Neverwinter book was. Drow in the default PoL setting are pretty much the same as Realms drow, to the point that you could just change the names of the city, houses and NPCs and it will work just fine.
#4
mboss77
Nov 28, 2011 13:12:09 I wonder if it will focus on a specific tier of play like Neverwinter?
#5
Duskweaver
Nov 28, 2011 13:16:46 Would make sense to be paragon-tier-focused.
#6
Samrin
Nov 28, 2011 15:24:05 Nothing says this is a campaign setting. It could be another Gloomwrought.
#7
Osgood
Nov 28, 2011 15:30:37 Ugh, more tired, hackneyed drow (and technically in the equally overdone Realms no less).

I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived
instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search...
#8
starglyte
Nov 28, 2011 16:15:05 Meh, was never a big fan of the Drow. I liked Neverwinter when I thought I would not have, so I plan on waiting for what the spoilers/D&D Experience will tell me before writing it off. Still hoping for Ravenloft and/or a new Sword and Sorcery campaign setting.
#9
Fallen_Star_02
Nov 28, 2011 16:29:40 Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic?

Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog?
#10
kalontas
Nov 28, 2011 16:40:01
I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived
instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search...

Oh, I'd love to see Rich Burlew's pitch. He's a talented man, and it probably was really great - and now we can never see it.

OR - a new setting search!
#11
Chiba_Monkey
Nov 28, 2011 19:10:48
I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived
instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search...

Oh, I'd love to see Rich Burlew's pitch. He's a talented man, and it probably was really great - and now we can never see it.

OR - a new setting search!

Eberron as a finished product was not solely the pitch by Keith Baker. A few of the ideas were taken from the other 2 finalists. I believe the deathless-obsessed elves came from Rich Burlew...
#12
The_Jester
Nov 28, 2011 19:58:33
Nothing says this is a campaign setting. It could be another Gloomwrought.

Except it's coming out in August, the month they do Campaign setting books. It's when they released the last four. And ths would also make it their big GenCon release.

I can see the plus. It's a different tier and can focus on intrigue and the Great Game / Game of Thrones. And the Encountes tie-in can lead character into LFR.
A book with intrigue and stealth focused classes, builds, powers and options would be excellent. Characters built to avoid combat.

On the down side, there's soooo many other world's they're neglecting. Dragonlance and Ravenloft and Al Qadim or even the frequently pitched Spellhammer/ Planescape hybrid set in the Astral Sea.

I imagine focusing on small settings works better for the designers: less fluff and world info is needed so they can cram in more crunch. That way they don't need to release two books.
#13
ah_stormbringer
Nov 29, 2011 8:18:13 Well so much for a completely new setting. While I like FR I am really sick of drizzt and all of his knock offs.
#14
tbok1992
Nov 29, 2011 12:44:06 To be quite blunt, I do not like Forgotten Realms. It's way too generic for my tastes, as even the defalt Points of Light/Nentir Vale setting has a nice pulp fantasy thing going for it. I prefer the more esoteric settings like Ravenoft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer (Which I think is the best concept to come out of D&D ever). I even pitched an article re-introducing the Giff as a way to gague interest in bringing Spelljammer back.

And, there are so many concepts that they could make into new setting that they aren't doing, like an Anime/JRPG inspired setting, a setting that is a world-sized dungeon where anything outside of it is a myth, a setting of islands floating in the sky. But no, we keep getting rehashes of genericland.

So, inconclusion, stop wanking off on Forgotten Realms WOTC and BRING ME BACK SOME DAMN SPELLJAMMER!
#15
Style75
Nov 29, 2011 14:28:10 So what happened to their "It's not a new campaign setting, it's a new way to play the game"? Drow in the underdark is about the most un-new way to play the game I can think of.

I was really hoping for something exciting but this is about as unexciting as they could have gotten. Honestly, a campaign setting about Elminster would be more fun. D&D is more than just Drizzt and Drow...
#16
friendlyfish
Nov 29, 2011 14:42:38 Hasbro Exec #1: "What among this crap sells?"

Hasbro Exec #2: "Well, RA Salvatore sells some books."

Hasbro Exec #1: "Make them sell more of that."

#17
The_Jester
Nov 29, 2011 17:28:20 An all drow/ Underark campaign is cool. I'm glad I did it for 2e back in high school. I'm less wow-ed now.
It'd be an awesome book to do as a companion to Underdark (like Gloomwrought would have been an awesome companion for a Shadowfell book). But as the campaign setting or big GenCon release we need something BIGGER. It's just not hype-worthy as a GenCon release should be, there's less to get excited about, being the third time they've detailed that city. I don't see it winning the show.
#18
Chiba_Monkey
Nov 29, 2011 20:51:59
Undermountain? Menzo? Can't they produce new material for FR? Abeir needs some love.

Considering the Dungeon Explorer's Guide, the 2012 product schedule is very meh.

Not to play prophet of doom, but from memory it looks very similar to the last days of 3.5. A Undermountain adventure, Drows of the Underdark and that horrible Dungeon Survival Guide where some 3.5 last products published. I wonder if we will see some Elder Evil book.

Elder Evils was published so late in 3.5e, that they made a conversion document to convert it to 4e. Search the site (I can't access Wizard's main site from work, just the forums) or look in downloadables, you should find the Elder Evils 4e conversion document.
#19
hyrsam
Dec 01, 2011 21:47:05 Well no wants to be a crazy prophet of doom...
kidding.

Seriously we don't even know what the heck the dungeon explorer guide is, so no point in assuming it sucks at least till we know more.

I'm not really into Drizzt, I lost interest after he killed his last sister, but I do like really like Menz. Not all intrigue is just between drow houses, other races trade, work, and fight in the city. Also Menz is a theocracy of Lolth, but other Gods do have thier own agents and plots in the city. In fact treatior priests are some of the most interesting intrigues. Thier are plots between houses, between races, between merchant clans, between Gods, possible between fiends, and between rival wizards. Any race short of elves and elderin are allowed in as long as they have permission from a Matron Mother or work for those that do. Non drow aren't held to the worship of Lolth like Drow are I think, not sure of that though.
I suspect it'll have ways to involve non drow players if only because drow only is too small a demographic.
I suspect Shades, Vrylokas, Dark Dwarves, Tieflings, Doppelgangers, Shadar-Kai, Humans, Minatuars and other more monsterous races do very well in Menz, except maybe fey and devas. Possible exceptions Satyr's of night. Still likely need the support of a Drow Noble House.
Point is more factions then House vs. House.
#20
Steely_Dan
Dec 02, 2011 2:43:00 I would like to see Svirfneblin addressed properly (or have they already?).
#21
hyrsam
Dec 02, 2011 8:50:53 I don't believe so, at least not as a player race.

I wouldn't mind a playable type of aboleth race.

Some new builds I for see, Blackguards of fear and greed, maybe a mount option too like a phase spider mount at heroic and a Purple Dragon or Shadow Dragon at epic, Lolth doman warpriests, a pure shadow necromancer class, priestess of Lolth paragon path that grants a snake whip, a pain based ardent, a new divine subclass traitor priest, a theme that grants membership in a drow noble house, an ED or pp for female drow Matron Mother, a theme or pp that has you as a trader in Menz for any race, pps or themes that connect to nearby cities, like advesary (pc mindflayer), or servator (pc aboleth servant), a slave of a drow house theme (again for non drow), an arcane theme around the menz's school of magic, the same for one based on the fighter academy, a surface race inflitrator pp, a spider companion theme or pp, werespider theme, chitin pc race, deep gnomes as the poster above suggested.

I would also mention that based on the cover blue, its a player book. Still it'll have to have more then just stuff usable by drow.
#22
excalainen
Dec 02, 2011 16:14:07
Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic?

Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog?

They used to in 2008 and 2009 (the golden years of 4e to me) in the Ampersands, but in 2010 they became just sales pitches for the next month's products, and then they stopped doing them entirely.
#23
nb_nmare
Dec 03, 2011 8:59:33
Blackguards of fear and greed

I doubt that any book would have a build a for class from another, non-Essentials/Player's Handbook book; that's most likely why the fey binder is to appear in this month's Dragon, rather than being in Heroes of the Feywild.
#24
The_Jester
Dec 03, 2011 21:07:01
Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic?

Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog?

They used to in 2008 and 2009 (the golden years of 4e to me) in the Ampersands, but in 2010 they became just sales pitches for the next month's products, and then they stopped doing them entirely.

They used to have big announcements for the year at GenCon, but after the complaints and problems with the cancelled books at the beginning of the year they switched to only announcing for six months. They could have just been vocal about books, letting people know the status of books, telling us fans instead of stealth-cancelling and waiting for people to notice. But I guess they'd rather have a non-event new product seminar,
#25
hyrsam
Dec 04, 2011 0:03:43 Good point.
#26
Marandahir
Dec 04, 2011 15:55:17 Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue does not include the words "Campaign" or "Setting" on the cover. Covers might lie, but previously with Neverwinter it only lied about being a Campaign Guide when the final book said Campaign Setting (presumably because it included player options as well – note that Gloomwrought was a Campaign Guide, and did not, while Dark Sun was a Campaign Setting and did).

Menzoberranzan includes neither on the pre-release cover. Therefore, even if it IS the August Release, to call it the 2012 Setting is disingenuous. It seems to have more in common with Hammerfast and Vor Rukoth, to be honest.

We had 2 Campaigns published in 2011 – Gloomwrought and Neverwinter. Nobody said that the Setting HAD to be published in August; it's just a 3 year trend of doing so. And then in 2011, Neverwinter followed it up, so people arbitrarily said that was the "true" Campaign Setting of the year, when really, Gloomwrought + Heroes of Shadow was just as important. And 2011 WAS a year of mixing things up, what with releasing 2 Player's Handbook-like titles in the same year – both Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild. I wouldn't be surprised if they're changing their release dates entirely. We just don't know.

In the end, Menzoberranzan just doesn't seem to fit with the clues for the 2012 setting. But it IS a good idea to publish, as it follows on the heels of Neverwinter as a Paragon semi-sequel, and Drow and Drizzt have publishing power. In fact, Legend of Drizzt and its various spin-offs and sequels and merchandise have probably sold more than the rest of D&D combined, sorry to say. So publishing into that is a good way to keep the profit margin up while supporting what we already have. But it just doesn't seem to fit any setting clues besides an August release and being a location book.
#27
crzyhawk
Dec 21, 2011 1:59:09 I love it and can't wait. Just have to throw it out there since it seems to be mostly drow and FR hatin' on this thread. While a lot of people dislike the drow and FR, both are fairly popular and likely to make money. Making money is what business is all about.

Things like Dark Sun and Eberron (I won't touch either of those with a 10 foot pole...our group was actually going to play in Eberron until we found out about flying ships, electric trains and robots and simply said no, not playing there) are somewhat fringe, and appeal to a far smaller spectrum of people...and thus will sell less. I imagine that's why WotC is going back to FR as hard as they have been lately, as it's traditionally been a cash cow, AND much of the material can be re-flavored easily for use in homebrew worlds. Stuff like Dark Sun, is much harder to refluff and reuse...as would Al Quadim, Kara-tur, or another "creative and new" approach. It's simply not likely to sell as well for a variety of reasons.

The drow and FR fanboy in me is pleased.

#28
Zelkon
Dec 21, 2011 9:43:53 I will never buy anything to do with Forgotten realms because it's so overused it's not funny. It's just a regular setting with some locations made famous by Drizzt! No imagination whatsoever until the spellplague, which FR fans hated. Eberron is awesome, cyberpunk is the best. Why would your group think about it until you found out about that stuff? There the whole reason you would play the setting!
#29
crzyhawk
Dec 21, 2011 15:12:45 because our DM didn't tell us about that. When he mentioned the flying ships, we were like whoa, wait a second and began doing more research. At the time, we were under the impression that Eberron was the PoL setting. Once we found out what he was trying to get us into, we were like, uhh no thanks.

As for FR, there is a lot more to the realms then "a bunch of places made famous by Drizzt" There's a ton of lore (which is both a blessing and a curse depending on the DM and players). It IS a bit generic, but IMHO that's what's best about it. There's a little something for everyone there, and nothing that's an over the top turn off (like say, flying ships *gag*).

Also, it's easier to take the more generic information and tailor it to fit into an Eberron or a Dark Sun campaign then it is to take stuff from Eberron and Dark Sun and fit it into FR, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance.

Honestly, I'd also love to see a Dragonlance campaign setting, but it's something I don't expect to see anytime soon.
#30
GordonPasha
Dec 21, 2011 17:26:20
because our DM didn't tell us about that. When he mentioned the flying ships, we were like whoa, wait a second and began doing more research. At the time, we were under the impression that Eberron was the PoL setting. Once we found out what he was trying to get us into, we were like, uhh no thanks.

You are aware that FR has flying ships too? Also I thought Kara-Tur is more or less linked to FR.

Apart from this, I'm at least interested in this book and also don't mind that the decided to support one setting with more material than only two books and regular articles. And let's be frank: Only FR has the economic potential for that. Partly also because it's the most generic setting of the three WotC published, but mostly because it's the best established.

#31
crzyhawk
Dec 21, 2011 17:39:02 Yes I'm aware of that but they are pretty rare.

There's also not trains powered by elementals, and I'm not sure what the rules are for warforged....but the levels of steampunk in FR are much lower. I'm not trying to trash people who are fans of those things, just saying they aren't for everyone, and it's easier to adapt something for a "generic" realm such as RF to a different campaign then it is to take the odd stuff and wrap it into a more traditional campaign. By catering to FR, or even Greyhawk they stand a better chance of selling a product that appeals at some level to a greater amount of people. That's simply good business.

Yes, Kara-tur is connected to the realms, as is Al-Qadim. Like I said, there is lots more to the realms then places made famous by Drizzt.
#32
hyrsam
Dec 22, 2011 18:51:48 I've never bought into the whole FR is generic aruement. Its theme is forgotten realms, aka empires of the past. Even current empires connect to forgotten empires. Also another major theme is divine intervention, the Gods of FR don't just sit on the sidelines. This makes the setting's depth its lore and history.
#33
rethgryn
Dec 27, 2011 1:20:41 I love Eberron for all of the reasons you hate it. The gods of Eberron are generally painted as non interventionist and can be argued to be mere myths. They may sit on the sidelines but one group never does: the players. Eberron is much more of a something for everyone setting but with a black and grey, film noir style intrigue that the players can influence with no tangled metaplot to get in the way.
#34
tallric_kruush
Dec 29, 2011 6:51:43 Indeed. Many people see the Lighting Rail, Elemental Airships and Warforged and jump to understandable conclusions about the setting that just aren't so.

Some of the best DnD novels ever written, quality wise, are part of the Eberron line. I'd recommend them to anyone who likes a good fantasy store. My favorite series, "The Dragon Below" trilogy, is mostly set in frontier settings in which the Warforged and elemental-powered transportation make minimal appearances. Those are iconic Eberron images, no doubt, but hardly sum up the nature of the setting.

I like all three of the supported settings, and all bring a different flavor to the table. The Realms were my first DnD setting. I love their rich history, but I also find it's feel the most "generic" and easily replicated/replaced in another setting.

Dark Sun is an awesome change of pace. It's so different than anything else. Athas is a harsh, brutal world. It provides a unique backdrop.

Eberron is my favorite setting. I won't go into all the whys and hows, but I think it's simply an incredible setting. The 3.5 ECS and the 4E ECG are two of the best written game supplements I've ever read. Like Eberron or hate it, Keith Baker and James Wyatt know how to write a setting. Keith's work, in particular, is phenomenal, both inside and beyond Eberron.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 _NewbieDM_ Nov 28, 2011 12:22:45	Amazon spoiled it yesterday: t.co/arhn0v5u
#2 kalontas Nov 28, 2011 12:24:09	So it's another piece of Forgotten Realms this year? Sigh. They can do so much more.
#3 Duskweaver Nov 28, 2011 12:30:55	At least it should be more useful outside the Realms than the Neverwinter book was. Drow in the default PoL setting are pretty much the same as Realms drow, to the point that you could just change the names of the city, houses and NPCs and it will work just fine.
#4 mboss77 Nov 28, 2011 13:12:09	I wonder if it will focus on a specific tier of play like Neverwinter?
#5 Duskweaver Nov 28, 2011 13:16:46	Would make sense to be paragon-tier-focused.
#6 Samrin Nov 28, 2011 15:24:05	Nothing says this is a campaign setting. It could be another Gloomwrought.
#7 Osgood Nov 28, 2011 15:30:37	Ugh, more tired, hackneyed drow (and technically in the equally overdone Realms no less). I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search...
#8 starglyte Nov 28, 2011 16:15:05	Meh, was never a big fan of the Drow. I liked Neverwinter when I thought I would not have, so I plan on waiting for what the spoilers/D&D Experience will tell me before writing it off. Still hoping for Ravenloft and/or a new Sword and Sorcery campaign setting.
#9 Fallen_Star_02 Nov 28, 2011 16:29:40	Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic? Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog?
#10 kalontas Nov 28, 2011 16:40:01	I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search... Oh, I'd love to see Rich Burlew's pitch. He's a talented man, and it probably was really great - and now we can never see it. OR - a new setting search!
#11 Chiba_Monkey Nov 28, 2011 19:10:48	I would say the well has run dry, but I know there are plenty of classic settings that could be revived instead of more underdark/drow stuff. How about something fresh that can shake up the status quo, like Eberron and Dark Sun do? Give me Ravenloft, Al Qadim, or (gasp) something brand new. Maybe look at one of the other two finalists from the Setting Search... Oh, I'd love to see Rich Burlew's pitch. He's a talented man, and it probably was really great - and now we can never see it. OR - a new setting search! Eberron as a finished product was not solely the pitch by Keith Baker. A few of the ideas were taken from the other 2 finalists. I believe the deathless-obsessed elves came from Rich Burlew...
#12 The_Jester Nov 28, 2011 19:58:33	Nothing says this is a campaign setting. It could be another Gloomwrought. Except it's coming out in August, the month they do Campaign setting books. It's when they released the last four. And ths would also make it their big GenCon release. I can see the plus. It's a different tier and can focus on intrigue and the Great Game / Game of Thrones. And the Encountes tie-in can lead character into LFR. A book with intrigue and stealth focused classes, builds, powers and options would be excellent. Characters built to avoid combat. On the down side, there's soooo many other world's they're neglecting. Dragonlance and Ravenloft and Al Qadim or even the frequently pitched Spellhammer/ Planescape hybrid set in the Astral Sea. I imagine focusing on small settings works better for the designers: less fluff and world info is needed so they can cram in more crunch. That way they don't need to release two books.
#13 ah_stormbringer Nov 29, 2011 8:18:13	Well so much for a completely new setting. While I like FR I am really sick of drizzt and all of his knock offs.
#14 tbok1992 Nov 29, 2011 12:44:06	To be quite blunt, I do not like Forgotten Realms. It's way too generic for my tastes, as even the defalt Points of Light/Nentir Vale setting has a nice pulp fantasy thing going for it. I prefer the more esoteric settings like Ravenoft, Dark Sun, and Spelljammer (Which I think is the best concept to come out of D&D ever). I even pitched an article re-introducing the Giff as a way to gague interest in bringing Spelljammer back. And, there are so many concepts that they could make into new setting that they aren't doing, like an Anime/JRPG inspired setting, a setting that is a world-sized dungeon where anything outside of it is a myth, a setting of islands floating in the sky. But no, we keep getting rehashes of genericland. So, inconclusion, stop wanking off on Forgotten Realms WOTC and BRING ME BACK SOME DAMN SPELLJAMMER!
#15 Style75 Nov 29, 2011 14:28:10	So what happened to their "It's not a new campaign setting, it's a new way to play the game"? Drow in the underdark is about the most un-new way to play the game I can think of. I was really hoping for something exciting but this is about as unexciting as they could have gotten. Honestly, a campaign setting about Elminster would be more fun. D&D is more than just Drizzt and Drow...
#16 friendlyfish Nov 29, 2011 14:42:38	Hasbro Exec #1: "What among this crap sells?" Hasbro Exec #2: "Well, RA Salvatore sells some books." Hasbro Exec #1: "Make them sell more of that."
#17 The_Jester Nov 29, 2011 17:28:20	An all drow/ Underark campaign is cool. I'm glad I did it for 2e back in high school. I'm less wow-ed now. It'd be an awesome book to do as a companion to Underdark (like Gloomwrought would have been an awesome companion for a Shadowfell book). But as the campaign setting or big GenCon release we need something BIGGER. It's just not hype-worthy as a GenCon release should be, there's less to get excited about, being the third time they've detailed that city. I don't see it winning the show.
#18 Chiba_Monkey Nov 29, 2011 20:51:59	Undermountain? Menzo? Can't they produce new material for FR? Abeir needs some love. Considering the Dungeon Explorer's Guide, the 2012 product schedule is very meh. Not to play prophet of doom, but from memory it looks very similar to the last days of 3.5. A Undermountain adventure, Drows of the Underdark and that horrible Dungeon Survival Guide where some 3.5 last products published. I wonder if we will see some Elder Evil book. Elder Evils was published so late in 3.5e, that they made a conversion document to convert it to 4e. Search the site (I can't access Wizard's main site from work, just the forums) or look in downloadables, you should find the Elder Evils 4e conversion document.
#19 hyrsam Dec 01, 2011 21:47:05	Well no wants to be a crazy prophet of doom... kidding. Seriously we don't even know what the heck the dungeon explorer guide is, so no point in assuming it sucks at least till we know more. I'm not really into Drizzt, I lost interest after he killed his last sister, but I do like really like Menz. Not all intrigue is just between drow houses, other races trade, work, and fight in the city. Also Menz is a theocracy of Lolth, but other Gods do have thier own agents and plots in the city. In fact treatior priests are some of the most interesting intrigues. Thier are plots between houses, between races, between merchant clans, between Gods, possible between fiends, and between rival wizards. Any race short of elves and elderin are allowed in as long as they have permission from a Matron Mother or work for those that do. Non drow aren't held to the worship of Lolth like Drow are I think, not sure of that though. I suspect it'll have ways to involve non drow players if only because drow only is too small a demographic. I suspect Shades, Vrylokas, Dark Dwarves, Tieflings, Doppelgangers, Shadar-Kai, Humans, Minatuars and other more monsterous races do very well in Menz, except maybe fey and devas. Possible exceptions Satyr's of night. Still likely need the support of a Drow Noble House. Point is more factions then House vs. House.
#20 Steely_Dan Dec 02, 2011 2:43:00	I would like to see Svirfneblin addressed properly (or have they already?).
#21 hyrsam Dec 02, 2011 8:50:53	I don't believe so, at least not as a player race. I wouldn't mind a playable type of aboleth race. Some new builds I for see, Blackguards of fear and greed, maybe a mount option too like a phase spider mount at heroic and a Purple Dragon or Shadow Dragon at epic, Lolth doman warpriests, a pure shadow necromancer class, priestess of Lolth paragon path that grants a snake whip, a pain based ardent, a new divine subclass traitor priest, a theme that grants membership in a drow noble house, an ED or pp for female drow Matron Mother, a theme or pp that has you as a trader in Menz for any race, pps or themes that connect to nearby cities, like advesary (pc mindflayer), or servator (pc aboleth servant), a slave of a drow house theme (again for non drow), an arcane theme around the menz's school of magic, the same for one based on the fighter academy, a surface race inflitrator pp, a spider companion theme or pp, werespider theme, chitin pc race, deep gnomes as the poster above suggested. I would also mention that based on the cover blue, its a player book. Still it'll have to have more then just stuff usable by drow.
#22 excalainen Dec 02, 2011 16:14:07	Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic? Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog? They used to in 2008 and 2009 (the golden years of 4e to me) in the Ampersands, but in 2010 they became just sales pitches for the next month's products, and then they stopped doing them entirely.
#23 nb_nmare Dec 03, 2011 8:59:33	Blackguards of fear and greed I doubt that any book would have a build a for class from another, non-Essentials/Player's Handbook book; that's most likely why the fey binder is to appear in this month's Dragon, rather than being in Heroes of the Feywild.
#24 The_Jester Dec 03, 2011 21:07:01	Why doesn't Wizards do big splashy "Announcing..." articles for D&D books, the way they do for Magic? Why do they let upcoming major releases appear silently on Amazon or thier product catalog? They used to in 2008 and 2009 (the golden years of 4e to me) in the Ampersands, but in 2010 they became just sales pitches for the next month's products, and then they stopped doing them entirely. They used to have big announcements for the year at GenCon, but after the complaints and problems with the cancelled books at the beginning of the year they switched to only announcing for six months. They could have just been vocal about books, letting people know the status of books, telling us fans instead of stealth-cancelling and waiting for people to notice. But I guess they'd rather have a non-event new product seminar,
#25 hyrsam Dec 04, 2011 0:03:43	Good point.
#26 Marandahir Dec 04, 2011 15:55:17	Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue does not include the words "Campaign" or "Setting" on the cover. Covers might lie, but previously with Neverwinter it only lied about being a Campaign Guide when the final book said Campaign Setting (presumably because it included player options as well – note that Gloomwrought was a Campaign Guide, and did not, while Dark Sun was a Campaign Setting and did). Menzoberranzan includes neither on the pre-release cover. Therefore, even if it IS the August Release, to call it the 2012 Setting is disingenuous. It seems to have more in common with Hammerfast and Vor Rukoth, to be honest. We had 2 Campaigns published in 2011 – Gloomwrought and Neverwinter. Nobody said that the Setting HAD to be published in August; it's just a 3 year trend of doing so. And then in 2011, Neverwinter followed it up, so people arbitrarily said that was the "true" Campaign Setting of the year, when really, Gloomwrought + Heroes of Shadow was just as important. And 2011 WAS a year of mixing things up, what with releasing 2 Player's Handbook-like titles in the same year – both Heroes of Shadow and Heroes of the Feywild. I wouldn't be surprised if they're changing their release dates entirely. We just don't know. In the end, Menzoberranzan just doesn't seem to fit with the clues for the 2012 setting. But it IS a good idea to publish, as it follows on the heels of Neverwinter as a Paragon semi-sequel, and Drow and Drizzt have publishing power. In fact, Legend of Drizzt and its various spin-offs and sequels and merchandise have probably sold more than the rest of D&D combined, sorry to say. So publishing into that is a good way to keep the profit margin up while supporting what we already have. But it just doesn't seem to fit any setting clues besides an August release and being a location book.
#27 crzyhawk Dec 21, 2011 1:59:09	I love it and can't wait. Just have to throw it out there since it seems to be mostly drow and FR hatin' on this thread. While a lot of people dislike the drow and FR, both are fairly popular and likely to make money. Making money is what business is all about. Things like Dark Sun and Eberron (I won't touch either of those with a 10 foot pole...our group was actually going to play in Eberron until we found out about flying ships, electric trains and robots and simply said no, not playing there) are somewhat fringe, and appeal to a far smaller spectrum of people...and thus will sell less. I imagine that's why WotC is going back to FR as hard as they have been lately, as it's traditionally been a cash cow, AND much of the material can be re-flavored easily for use in homebrew worlds. Stuff like Dark Sun, is much harder to refluff and reuse...as would Al Quadim, Kara-tur, or another "creative and new" approach. It's simply not likely to sell as well for a variety of reasons. The drow and FR fanboy in me is pleased.
#28 Zelkon Dec 21, 2011 9:43:53	I will never buy anything to do with Forgotten realms because it's so overused it's not funny. It's just a regular setting with some locations made famous by Drizzt! No imagination whatsoever until the spellplague, which FR fans hated. Eberron is awesome, cyberpunk is the best. Why would your group think about it until you found out about that stuff? There the whole reason you would play the setting!
#29 crzyhawk Dec 21, 2011 15:12:45	because our DM didn't tell us about that. When he mentioned the flying ships, we were like whoa, wait a second and began doing more research. At the time, we were under the impression that Eberron was the PoL setting. Once we found out what he was trying to get us into, we were like, uhh no thanks. As for FR, there is a lot more to the realms then "a bunch of places made famous by Drizzt" There's a ton of lore (which is both a blessing and a curse depending on the DM and players). It IS a bit generic, but IMHO that's what's best about it. There's a little something for everyone there, and nothing that's an over the top turn off (like say, flying ships gag). Also, it's easier to take the more generic information and tailor it to fit into an Eberron or a Dark Sun campaign then it is to take stuff from Eberron and Dark Sun and fit it into FR, Greyhawk, or Dragonlance. Honestly, I'd also love to see a Dragonlance campaign setting, but it's something I don't expect to see anytime soon.
#30 GordonPasha Dec 21, 2011 17:26:20	because our DM didn't tell us about that. When he mentioned the flying ships, we were like whoa, wait a second and began doing more research. At the time, we were under the impression that Eberron was the PoL setting. Once we found out what he was trying to get us into, we were like, uhh no thanks. You are aware that FR has flying ships too? Also I thought Kara-Tur is more or less linked to FR. Apart from this, I'm at least interested in this book and also don't mind that the decided to support one setting with more material than only two books and regular articles. And let's be frank: Only FR has the economic potential for that. Partly also because it's the most generic setting of the three WotC published, but mostly because it's the best established.
#31 crzyhawk Dec 21, 2011 17:39:02	Yes I'm aware of that but they are pretty rare. There's also not trains powered by elementals, and I'm not sure what the rules are for warforged....but the levels of steampunk in FR are much lower. I'm not trying to trash people who are fans of those things, just saying they aren't for everyone, and it's easier to adapt something for a "generic" realm such as RF to a different campaign then it is to take the odd stuff and wrap it into a more traditional campaign. By catering to FR, or even Greyhawk they stand a better chance of selling a product that appeals at some level to a greater amount of people. That's simply good business. Yes, Kara-tur is connected to the realms, as is Al-Qadim. Like I said, there is lots more to the realms then places made famous by Drizzt.
#32 hyrsam Dec 22, 2011 18:51:48	I've never bought into the whole FR is generic aruement. Its theme is forgotten realms, aka empires of the past. Even current empires connect to forgotten empires. Also another major theme is divine intervention, the Gods of FR don't just sit on the sidelines. This makes the setting's depth its lore and history.
#33 rethgryn Dec 27, 2011 1:20:41	I love Eberron for all of the reasons you hate it. The gods of Eberron are generally painted as non interventionist and can be argued to be mere myths. They may sit on the sidelines but one group never does: the players. Eberron is much more of a something for everyone setting but with a black and grey, film noir style intrigue that the players can influence with no tangled metaplot to get in the way.
#34 tallric_kruush Dec 29, 2011 6:51:43	Indeed. Many people see the Lighting Rail, Elemental Airships and Warforged and jump to understandable conclusions about the setting that just aren't so. Some of the best DnD novels ever written, quality wise, are part of the Eberron line. I'd recommend them to anyone who likes a good fantasy store. My favorite series, "The Dragon Below" trilogy, is mostly set in frontier settings in which the Warforged and elemental-powered transportation make minimal appearances. Those are iconic Eberron images, no doubt, but hardly sum up the nature of the setting. I like all three of the supported settings, and all bring a different flavor to the table. The Realms were my first DnD setting. I love their rich history, but I also find it's feel the most "generic" and easily replicated/replaced in another setting. Dark Sun is an awesome change of pace. It's so different than anything else. Athas is a harsh, brutal world. It provides a unique backdrop. Eberron is my favorite setting. I won't go into all the whys and hows, but I think it's simply an incredible setting. The 3.5 ECS and the 4E ECG are two of the best written game supplements I've ever read. Like Eberron or hate it, Keith Baker and James Wyatt know how to write a setting. Keith's work, in particular, is phenomenal, both inside and beyond Eberron.