we have a warlock for everything else.
do you think we will see a celestial pact:warlock??
No, a Blood Pact Warlock.
I just love the images I get from this. And its pact power is a Melee Touch attack.
Whats the difference between a celestial pact and a star pact?
Celestial means relating to the skies and astronomy.
Adamant entertainment /venture 4th, has already done something basically the same (depending on your idea) with pact of the angelic choirs. It deals with true names and other celestial things. One of the paragon paths is called the "celestial", which gives you storm wings.
Whats the difference between a celestial pact and a star pact?
Celestial means relating to the skies and astronomy.
Star Pact deals with the Far Realms
Star Pact deals with the Far Realms
Yeah... Outer Space = Far Realms. Therefore, stars.
that is correct, star deal with far.
celeistial does woth angels and stuff.
although it could be call astral pact too
If by Celestial you mean Divine beings such as Angels, then I would think you're talking about the Divine power source, a Divine Warlock.
The Invoker is the Divine Warlock, they make covenants(which is another word for pact) with Divine beings for a portion of their power.
And IMO the Warden is the Primal Warlock, to an extent
that is correct, star deal with far.
celeistial does woth angels and stuff.
although it could be call astral pact too
Yeah, you want to pick up the pact of angelic choirs. I'll list a few things about it.
Fuzzy fluff:
Known to mortals as angels, most assume these creatures are messengers and servants of benevolent deities. While this might be true, angels are not the creations of the gods. Sentient creatures with individual goals, beliefs and desires, angels grant their powers to anyone willing to do what they demand in exchange. In this way, angels are like the other primeval entities a warlock might tap.
More fuzzy fluff:
You have discovered the ancient thaumaturgies and rituals used to invoke the creatures that roam the Astra Sea. While this means you sometimes channel life-giving power, you also blast your enemies with searing light and the awesome might of the heavens.
A class feature: True Name A supernal language - the original tongue of angels and gods. Knowing a creature's true name grants the wielder power over that creature.
A few names of powers.
Awe of the heavens
Heavenly glow
Words of power
Knowledge of the heavens
Fiery Chariot
Mark of Anathema
Apocalypse (lvl 29 daily)
Celestial Paragon Path - Includes Storm of Wings (lvl 11 encounter power)
A new magical item (one of a few) - Rod of Vengeance. (rod)
Very interesting build, to be sure. A player in one of the groups I'm in is using this and having a load of fun. (Deva warlock)
[edit] Shadow step is replaced by Menacing transport. "your passage creates an aura of awe and dread" Making it harder for the enemy to hit you.
If by Celestial you mean Divine beings such as Angels, then I would think you're talking about the Divine power source, a Divine Warlock.
The Invoker is the Divine Warlock, they make covenants(which is another word for pact) with Divine beings for a portion of their power.
And IMO the Warden is the Primal Warlock, to an extent
I am of two minds about the idea of a Celestial Pact warlock.
This really blurs the lines between Arcane and Divine, and you are correct that the more appropriate word (for connotation sake) is covenent, not pact. The word warlock itself really implies someone who gains their power from a less than sainly source. The warlock's curse and the Shadow Step abilities sort of bear this out, and really don't lend themselves to a Celestial source unless you reskin them.
However, Invokers are controllers, not strikers. The Divine striker is the Avenger, but a Celestial pact warlock would work significantly differently, and could make an interesting character concept.
I wonder if instead of a warlock build, it could be a full divine striker class?
However, Invokers are controllers, not strikers. The Divine striker is the Avenger, but a Celestial pact warlock would work significantly differently, and could make an interesting character concept.
Warlocks may be strikers, but they have a very strong controller sub-role. Invokers may be controllers, but can be built with a striker sub-role. As such I don't really see a problem with seeing them as two sides of the same coin.
A celestial pact warlock is nothing more than needless symmetry with infernal. Also the notion of such a pact doesn't fit with the flavor that warlocks are supposed to make their pacts with beings of at best questionable morality.
If one truly feels the need for an arcane agent that wields celestial power, then star pact is probably the best place to start. Yes by default it tends to lean more towards tentacled horrors, but if one mostly chooses radiant attacks and powers that deal strictly with fate/destiny the rest is mostly fluff (which is mutable).
Aren't Devils Celestials now?
In fact, Celestial is gone, they're all Immortals, denizens of the Astral Sea. Devils are just as Celestial as Angels or Maruts. They just take it in a more sinister manner.
Actually, I could see a pact with Maruts as a possibility (they make compacts with entities and collect favours). I could also see a Genie-type pact that would draw on Efreet or Djinn of the Elemental Chaos without being just the same thing as Chaos Sorcerers.
However, Invokers are controllers, not strikers. The Divine striker is the Avenger, but a Celestial pact warlock would work significantly differently, and could make an interesting character concept.
Warlocks may be strikers, but they have a very strong controller sub-role. Invokers may be controllers, but can be built with a striker sub-role. As such I don't really see a problem with seeing them as two sides of the same coin.A celestial pact warlock is nothing more than needless symmetry with infernal. Also the notion of such a pact doesn't fit with the flavor that warlocks are supposed to make their pacts with beings of at best questionable morality.
If one truly feels the need for an arcane agent that wields celestial power, then star pact is probably the best place to start. Yes by default it tends to lean more towards tentacled horrors, but if one mostly chooses radiant attacks and powers that deal strictly with fate/destiny the rest is mostly fluff (which is mutable).
I'd just like to point out that Evil deities also have Angels, so making a pact with celestial beings wouldn't necessarily make you all healy and leader-like.
A celestial pact warlock is nothing more than needless symmetry with infernal. Also the notion of such a pact doesn't fit with the flavor that warlocks are supposed to make their pacts with beings of at best questionable morality.
I'd just like to point out that Evil deities also have Angels, so making a pact with celestial beings wouldn't necessarily make you all healy and leader-like.
Yes evil deities have angels, but a pact with deities and angels of no specific alignment would be astral not celestial. The term celestial has refered exclusively to outsiders of good alignment in older editions, and in 4e would likely refer specifically to immortals that are natives of the astral domain know as Celestia (which in most settings are by definition beings of purity and virtue).
I think a better word for it would be called, an Astral Pact Warlock or a Supernal Pact Warlock. Whatever you call it. I think it would be sweet. The powers could be fluffed similarly to the Vestige or the Star pacts, where the powers are themed after a few specific entities. They could even name several specific beings that are prone to giving pacts. Such as the Raven Queen (although she lives in the Shadowfell), Asmodeus(isn't this right up his ally), Erathis, and Corellon, and that's just God's. Who knows what else is out there in the Astral Sea.
A rotating pact boon like the vestige pact is probably the way to go since the various entities of the astral sea are so different.
The powers would probably be radiant, in nature but it could easily become a cornucopia of elements rather then just a a few.
Of course, I've been clamoring for a Dragon Pact Warlock since launch day. I just think that Elder Dragons have enough power to make Pacts with mortals. Of course it steps all over the sorcerer's toes.
I like the idea. By 4E cosmoligy the non-infernal parts of the astral sea and the elemental chaos are the only other realms that warlocks don't get power from. Well and the abyss but alot of people refluff deal with devil to deal with demon.
I saw it as learning the secret names of the angels and forming formal contracts of favor for a favor with the warlock having no faith, respect, or trust for the powers he gets his magic from other then what is in writing
I can see some fun RP of a mercenary jerk who decided that the astral pact was the fastest way to get power.
"Thank you for saving us, you are a real hero"-"Nope, I just want to cast spells tommorow."
I was thinking the pact boon could be a boost to defense.
May be even a limit that you can not place your curse on a good or lawfull good creature that has not attacked you yet.
I think a better word for it would be called, an Astral Pact Warlock or a Supernal Pact Warlock. Whatever you call it. I think it would be sweet. The powers could be fluffed similarly to the Vestige or the Star pacts, where the powers are themed after a few specific entities. They could even name several specific beings that are prone to giving pacts. Such as the Raven Queen (although she lives in the Shadowfell), Asmodeus(isn't this right up his ally), Erathis, and Corellon, and that's just God's. Who knows what else is out there in the Astral Sea.
The problem is that most such concepts can already be achieved with the current pacts. Asmodius is the lord of devils so a pact with him would likely resemble the infernal pact. The Raven Queen is a god of death, winter, and fate, which should be possible to accomplish by selecting thematically appropriate powers from the star pact and dark pact. Corellon would likely be a good match with the fey pact.
Further more as you already mentioned, certain aspects of the vestige and star pacts are thematically similar to what a theoretical astral pact would contain. As such picking an appropriate mix of powers then refluffing appropriately should accomplish the same result.
Of course, I've been clamoring for a Dragon Pact Warlock since launch day. I just think that Elder Dragons have enough power to make Pacts with mortals. Of course it steps all over the sorcerer's toes.
Agreed, on both counts. I'd love to see a dragon pact warlock, but it might well be redundant next to the dragon soul sorcerer, much like how an astral pact would be redundant next to the invoker.
Actually, as far as Corellon goes, he works just fine for Fey pacts, IMO. Unaligned patron of the fey, that sort of thing would be right up his alley and a way to get non-divine servants to try to get around any potential pesky restrictions on divine servants...
Theres a sneak peak of the Sun Pact Warlock on rpgnow.com, Im not really sure its what you are looking for, but it looks pretty sharp. And its a FREE download. You cant beat that!
Aren't Devils Celestials now?
In fact, Celestial is gone, they're all Immortals, denizens of the Astral Sea. Devils are just as Celestial as Angels or Maruts. They just take it in a more sinister manner.
I think you answered your own question. Devils are immortals and "celestial" hasn't been defined in 4E. I'm not sure they ever will define "celestial" as a keyword or description for a published monster, at least not in the way they defined it in 3.5 (an outsider with the "good" subtype). WotC seems to be catering exclusively to games with good- and unaligned parties, who would be extremely unlikely to assault the paragons of justice.
Exactly. It was a rhetorical question, btw, and thus I answered it myself.
The ONLY way I'm seeing a "Celestial" pact that doesn't step on the Invoker or the Infernal Warlock or the Vestige Warlock or the Star Warlock or the Cosmic Sorcerer's toes is a pact with Maruts. It fits in with the concept of a Warlock very nicely as well, because they're of questionable morality (why are they acquiring favours?) and they lend themselves to making compacts.
The ONLY way I'm seeing a "Celestial" pact that doesn't step on the Invoker or the Infernal Warlock or the Vestige Warlock or the Star Warlock or the Cosmic Sorcerer's toes is a pact with Maruts. It fits in with the concept of a Warlock very nicely as well, because they're of questionable morality (why are they acquiring favours?) and they lend themselves to making compacts.
This concept could warrant merit. Though it leaves me with two questions. The lesser of which is what the pact would be called, "marut pact" sounds a bit to blunt and would have functionally zero meaning to those not already familiar with this somewhat obscure race. The more important question however would be what the theme of the pact is, what makes could make it mechanically unique and compelling next to the already existent pacts?
Not that I expect you or anyone else in this thread to be able to answer either question, but it still leaves me pondering.
Inevitable Pact Warlock. 
Well, like I said. Its already been done, just not by wotc. The pact of the angelic choirs is the pact with angels, making the warlock into a heavenly weapon of divine wrath, capable of standing toe to toe with any other warlock pact, easily.
Inevitable Pact Warlock.
Too bad inevitables, other than the marut (who aren't even constructs anymore), seem to be defunct in the new edition.
I suppose that Mechinus could show up again down the line as an opposing counterpart to the Far Realm, at which point it could be revealed that the marut were the advanced scouts of the clockwork nirvana. The lords of perfection would then cash in all those favors that the marut have been collecting, backed by literally unbreakable laws, and thus conquer the world without even allowing an opportunity for opposition. 
Well, like I said. Its already been done, just not by wotc.
Then it doesn't exist! j/k (although truth be told after what i saw out of 3rd party publishers during 3e I'm a little gunshy)
The pact of the angelic choirs is the pact with angels, making the warlock into a heavenly weapon of divine wrath, capable of standing toe to toe with any other warlock pact, easily.
But wouldn't that be divine and not arcane?
Well, like I said. Its already been done, just not by wotc. The pact of the angelic choirs is the pact with angels, making the warlock into a heavenly weapon of divine wrath, capable of standing toe to toe with any other warlock pact, easily.
And how would this concept not work for an Avenger or an Invoker?
Well, like I said. Its already been done, just not by wotc. The pact of the angelic choirs is the pact with angels, making the warlock into a heavenly weapon of divine wrath, capable of standing toe to toe with any other warlock pact, easily.
And how would this concept not work for an Avenger or an Invoker?
Its not that it wouldn't work for something, its that it DOES work for the warlock, so it gives the warlock fans, seeking this exact thing (celestial pact with angels) what they want. Plus the powers and tactics are very cool.
Well, like I said. Its already been done, just not by wotc.
Then it doesn't exist! j/k (although truth be told after what i saw out of 3rd party publishers during 3e I'm a little gunshy)
The pact of the angelic choirs is the pact with angels, making the warlock into a heavenly weapon of divine wrath, capable of standing toe to toe with any other warlock pact, easily.
But wouldn't that be divine and not arcane?
They cover this in the book.
Why Arcane?
Channeling the powers of angels suggests a divine rather than an arcane source for a warlock's angelic pact. This pact takes its inspiration from real world examples of angel magic such as the lesser key of solomon and the qabbala. In those workds, it was not the faith of the wielder that granted them supernatural powers, but simply their knowledge of esoteric rituals. While the spirits they manipulated had their origins in heaven, it was just another form of magic. Unlike divine energy, this magic was believed to be as corrupting and insidious as magic from other sources.
If you don't like an angelic pact warlock manipulating arcane energy, you can change the power source to divine.
If the OP doesn't like it, then he shouldn't get it. But its basically what he's looking for. A warlock who forms a pact with angelic beings of the astral sea. Some of the powers are really cool too. Dealing with true name magic and heavenly wrath.
But it doesn't work with the themes of the Warlock.
Warlocks deal with perilous beings and forces, making pacts that aren't wholey beneficial, that could nip them in the but in the long run. They're essentially Arcane, due to the studious nature of the class, and it's necessity to deal with ancient powers of the cosmos that aren't accepted under normal circumstances.
What you described is thoroughly divine, even if it's not convoking the gods themselves. Such a pact is thus not in the realm of the Warlock, but rather in the realm of the Invoker or the Avenger, or similar such divine class concepts.
It's similar to the relationship between the Warlock and the Sorcerer, and what makes them fundamentally different. Sorcerer's don't deal with entities, they deal with powers that referberate through their own existence. Thus, someone effected by the chaos in their childhood may be a chaos sorcerer, but only someone who purposefully goes out and seeks a pact with a devil is an infernal warlock.
There are fundamental fluff differences between classes. While you can transmute the fluff, to take a class, and change it's fundamental qualities because you want a build option open that doesn't really fit with the fundamental themes of the class would tear down the class itself. You might as well not be playing a Warlock anymore, if your not making pacts with dangerous and amoral/immoral entities.
But it doesn't work with the themes of the Warlock.
Warlocks deal with perilous beings and forces, making pacts that aren't wholey beneficial, that could nip them in the but in the long run. They're essentially Arcane, due to the studious nature of the class, and it's necessity to deal with ancient powers of the cosmos that aren't accepted under normal circumstances.
What you described is thoroughly divine, even if it's not convoking the gods themselves. Such a pact is thus not in the realm of the Warlock, but rather in the realm of the Invoker or the Avenger, or similar such divine class concepts.
It's similar to the relationship between the Warlock and the Sorcerer, and what makes them fundamentally different. Sorcerer's don't deal with entities, they deal with powers that referberate through their own existence. Thus, someone effected by the chaos in their childhood may be a chaos sorcerer, but only someone who purposefully goes out and seeks a pact with a devil is an infernal warlock.
There are fundamental fluff differences between classes. While you can transmute the fluff, to take a class, and change it's fundamental qualities because you want a build option open that doesn't really fit with the fundamental themes of the class would tear down the class itself. You might as well not be playing a Warlock anymore, if your not making pacts with dangerous and amoral/immoral entities.
QFT.
But it doesn't work with the themes of the Warlock.
Warlocks deal with perilous beings and forces, making pacts that aren't wholey beneficial, that could nip them in the but in the long run. They're essentially Arcane, due to the studious nature of the class, and it's necessity to deal with ancient powers of the cosmos that aren't accepted under normal circumstances.
What you described is thoroughly divine, even if it's not convoking the gods themselves. Such a pact is thus not in the realm of the Warlock, but rather in the realm of the Invoker or the Avenger, or similar such divine class concepts.
It's similar to the relationship between the Warlock and the Sorcerer, and what makes them fundamentally different. Sorcerer's don't deal with entities, they deal with powers that referberate through their own existence. Thus, someone effected by the chaos in their childhood may be a chaos sorcerer, but only someone who purposefully goes out and seeks a pact with a devil is an infernal warlock.
There are fundamental fluff differences between classes. While you can transmute the fluff, to take a class, and change it's fundamental qualities because you want a build option open that doesn't really fit with the fundamental themes of the class would tear down the class itself. You might as well not be playing a Warlock anymore, if your not making pacts with dangerous and amoral/immoral entities.
Angels can be as amoral/immoral as anyone else, they can also be evil. I'm not really seeing the problem. An infernal warlock makes pacts with devils, an angelic warlock makes pacts with angels. Both of which can be very evil and have their own agendas.
[edit] I wouldn't tell my players they can't play a warlock with an angel pact if thats what they want, just because it doesn't click with my vision of a warlock. I'm just telling the OP that what he might be looking for, already exists. Telling him what he wants to play doesn't work is kinda silly since its not your game hes playing in.
Angels can be as amoral/immoral as anyone else, they can also be evil. I'm not really seeing the problem. An infernal warlock makes pacts with devils, an angelic warlock makes pacts with angels. Both of which can be very evil and have their own agendas.
Except they aren't. They're the manifested will of their god. They serve their God as their God's chief luitennant. There's a reason that they are summoned when an Invoker makes their prayers to their deities - the deities send their chief servitors to grant power.
Angelic magic might have worked if 4e had taken a different direction with Angels. Yes, Angels can be any alignment. But that's because they're the alignment of the deity they serve.
VERY RARELY do angels rebel against their deity (that's what makes Asmodeus so powerful and notable amongst angels, besides the fact that his rebellion worked and he stole his deities' portfolio and domain... of course, that was from the retconned Bane article...).
Angelic Magic comes out of a grimoire tradition, the same that the Lesser Keys of Solomon invokes, as well as the Kabbalah. However, that tradition comes from the real world, where monotheism is assumed, and anything of the other "great powers" of the universe are either Angel or Demon. That fluff doesn't work with how Angels work, though in 4e, because Angels aren't the sole force of good, and they act on the demands of their God and can't be bound into servitude. It takes prayers to the god to draw on angelic power. They're a divine essence, not a magical force of the cosmos that is utilised by gods and thus can also be utilised by humanoid binders.
But it doesn't work with the themes of the Warlock.
Warlocks deal with perilous beings and forces, making pacts that aren't wholey beneficial, that could nip them in the but in the long run. They're essentially Arcane, due to the studious nature of the class, and it's necessity to deal with ancient powers of the cosmos that aren't accepted under normal circumstances.
What you described is thoroughly divine, even if it's not convoking the gods themselves. Such a pact is thus not in the realm of the Warlock, but rather in the realm of the Invoker or the Avenger, or similar such divine class concepts.
It's similar to the relationship between the Warlock and the Sorcerer, and what makes them fundamentally different. Sorcerer's don't deal with entities, they deal with powers that referberate through their own existence. Thus, someone effected by the chaos in their childhood may be a chaos sorcerer, but only someone who purposefully goes out and seeks a pact with a devil is an infernal warlock.
There are fundamental fluff differences between classes. While you can transmute the fluff, to take a class, and change it's fundamental qualities because you want a build option open that doesn't really fit with the fundamental themes of the class would tear down the class itself. You might as well not be playing a Warlock anymore, if your not making pacts with dangerous and amoral/immoral entities.
Angels can be as amoral/immoral as anyone else, they can also be evil. I'm not really seeing the problem. An infernal warlock makes pacts with devils, an angelic warlock makes pacts with angels. Both of which can be very evil and have their own agendas.
Except they aren't. They're the manifested will of their god. They serve their God as their God's chief luitennant. There's a reason that they are summoned when an Invoker makes their prayers to their deities - the deities send their chief servitors to grant power.
Angelic magic might have worked if 4e had taken a different direction with Angels. Yes, Angels can be any alignment. But that's because they're the alignment of the deity they serve.
VERY RARELY do angels rebel against their deity (that's what makes Asmodeus so powerful and notable amongst angels, besides the fact that his rebellion worked and he stole his deities' portfolio and domain... of course, that was from the retconned Bane article...).Angelic Magic comes out of a grimoire tradition, the same that the Lesser Keys of Solomon invokes, as well as the Kabbalah. However, that tradition comes from the real world, where monotheism is assumed, and anything of the other "great powers" of the universe are either Angel or Demon. That fluff doesn't work with how Angels work, though in 4e, because Angels aren't the sole force of good, and they act on the demands of their God and can't be bound into servitude. It takes prayers to the god to draw on angelic power. They're a divine essence, not a magical force of the cosmos that is utilised by gods and thus can also be utilised by humanoid binders.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't angels around before the Gods? The whole forgotten devils thing of the Infernal Pact could work just as well in this situation. Also, its a pretty quick fix for WotC to explain what the angelic beings your pacts are with were doing before the Gods showed up and took control of everything. Maybe there are a few of them out there unchecked and unregulated, making deals and plotting theyre return. This is a great way to steer the whole Astral Pact away from the Divine aspect of the gods.
Also, if the Astral Sea is Infinite, there must be something native to it that lives there right?
Please grant citations, because I have no idea WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Granted, I may have missed something, so please, by all means, tell me where it says Angels were aroung BEFORE the deities.
He is correct. MM1 explains the creation of angels. Angels can do whatever they want and are not slaves to the gods.
Angels can be as amoral/immoral as anyone else, they can also be evil. I'm not really seeing the problem. An infernal warlock makes pacts with devils, an angelic warlock makes pacts with angels. Both of which can be very evil and have their own agendas.
Except they aren't.
Um, they can be.
They're the manifested will of their god.
Sorry, but wrong.
They serve their God as their God's chief luitennant.
Only when they want to, angels can come and go as they please and work for whom they wish.
There's a reason that they are summoned when an Invoker makes their prayers to their deities - the deities send their chief servitors to grant power.
And the angel agrees, willingly, but can refuse if it wanted to.
Angelic magic might have worked if 4e had taken a different direction with Angels. Yes, Angels can be any alignment. But that's because they're the alignment of the deity they serve.Nope, incorrect good sir. It can work because of the way 4e handled angels, angels are not an extention of the god it serves. Its a free agent willingly serving in its own interests and can leave the gods service at any time it chooses.
VERY RARELY do angels rebel against their deity (that's what makes Asmodeus so powerful and notable amongst angels, besides the fact that his rebellion worked and he stole his deities' portfolio and domain... of course, that was from the retconned Bane article...).Actually, what made asmodeus special was that he was (IIRC) the first angel to kill another angel. I need to look it up to know the details. Rebellion isn't the issue, murder is.
Angelic Magic comes out of a grimoire tradition, the same that the Lesser Keys of Solomon invokes, as well as the Kabbalah. However, that tradition comes from the real world, where monotheism is assumed, and anything of the other "great powers" of the universe are either Angel or Demon. That fluff doesn't work with how Angels work, though in 4e, because Angels aren't the sole force of good, and they act on the demands of their God and can't be bound into servitude. It takes prayers to the god to draw on angelic power. They're a divine essence, not a magical force of the cosmos that is utilised by gods and thus can also be utilised by humanoid binders.
Um, read pact of angelic choir. It works. Whether or not you like how it works is entirely up to you. But a warlock can form an angelic pact in 4e.
Bolded my replies. Sorry it took me awhile to respond.
[edit] Asmodeus wasn't the first to kill an angel, that was Alloces. (angel killing angel)
[edit] I can't seem to find the exact fluff I'm looking for, but I know that asmodeus's betrayal was not the defining act that damned him. It was probably the murder of He Who Was, the god. I'll get back to this point later.
It bears mentioning, I think, that the whole 'pact' aspect of Warlocks is also fluff and not binding. My warlocks just tap into other planes as a power source, no wheeling and dealing involved. There's no reason you can't refluff an invoker or cleric or whatnot into a Celestial Warlock.
MM page 14
Angels are sentient and free willed beings. In theory you could have angels who were powerful enough to make packs with. That being said, I would think that angelic packs were just refluffed star for the most part.
I must concede that I have been wrong in my understanding of the nature of Angels, and I tip my hat off you; touchée, good sirs.
However, I will not concede in my analysis that a pact with Angels is beyond the scope of the Warlock fluff, because the Angels have bound themselves into the service of the deities. It says in the same book that Angels are sent by deities, and never has them on their lonesome, working elsehow. They may have been originally something just of Astral Essense, and not of Deitic essence, but they now serve the deities, just like gods, and it is divine rituals that certain clergy use to call them down, according to the MM1 - rituals that mirror the powers of the Invoker. Angels of Authority are the heralds of a particular deity. Archangels are the ultimate authority in an astral dominion with the exception of the actual deity they serve. These are all canon facts from the MM2.
Angels, regardless of their origin, are defined by their relation to the divine. They aren't something that warlocks, who, according to Arcane Power, are more than any other class are known for their inpeity - they "channel power from creatures and entities that are often enemies of the gods" - that warlocks would pact from, because more than ANY other creature, they are allies of the gods.
But you might say that it says "OFTEN," and thus letting creatures and entities that aren't enemies allowed in. But what it implies in that sentence is rather that Devils, Archfey, Far Stars, Darkness, and Vestiges are not always enemies of the gods, but they usually are.
A Pact with Angels would fly in the face of all the themes and fluff they've established for Warlocks.
Seconded. I find it entirely more likely that we'll get a sha'ir-esque "Genie Pact" long before we get this one.
Seconded. I find it entirely more likely that we'll get a sha'ir-esque "Genie Pact" long before we get this one.
Now that would be very interesting. Im still wondering about Zakhara. Is it still around or did it get swept away with the spellplague? Perhaps it will be teleported into its own setting?
I must concede that I have been wrong in my understanding of the nature of Angels, and I tip my hat off you; touchée, good sirs.
Meh, its no problem. There is nothing wrong with using angels exactly how you want in your own game. They could be the creations of the gods or the children, bound to serve forever. It would work just fine.
However, I will not concede in my analysis that a pact with Angels is beyond the scope of the Warlock fluff, because the Angels have bound themselves into the service of the deities.
First, not all angels are bound to a god. But for the sake of debate, lets say all angels in MM2 are bound and cannot form pacts. But the angels in MM1 can. Also, the fluff of the angelic choir pact is not a "I'm making a pact with a being of pure goodness, lets save the world together" concept. Its a " I'm making a pact with the wrath of heaven, to show my foes why heaven is to be feared more than hell." If you read the angelic choir, you'd see what I mean. Its dark, just like all the others. The angels that form pacts are doing it for the same reasons all other beings make pacts.
It says in the same book that Angels are sent by deities, and never has them on their lonesome, working elsehow.
Thats the angels in MM2, MM1 angels are free game.
and it is divine rituals that certain clergy use to call them down, according to the MM1 - rituals that mirror the powers of the Invoker.
Yup, and the angelic pact offers fluff on its own arcane ritual to form a pact with an angel.
Angels, regardless of their origin, are defined by their relation to the divine. They aren't something that warlocks, who, according to Arcane Power, are more than any other class are known for their inpeity - they "channel power from creatures and entities that are often enemies of the gods" - that warlocks would pact from, because more than ANY other creature, they are allies of the gods.
Not all angels are allies of the gods, it doesn't say they have to be allied with the gods and it does say that they can operate as mercenaries (MM1), even then, it doesn't say that a warlock can only form pacts with enemies of the gods. Also, it would be very easy to simply say you are forming a pact with a rebellious angel in the astral sea, if thats what you want.
But you might say that it says "OFTEN," and thus letting creatures and entities that aren't enemies allowed in. But what it implies in that sentence is rather that Devils, Archfey, Far Stars, Darkness, and Vestiges are not always enemies of the gods, but they usually are.
Does it imply that? I suppose you could see that, but it still wouldn't stop an angel from forming a pact with a warlock. You could say its a sleeper, plotting the downfall of heaven without risking the punishment asmodeus's allies endured. Plenty of ideas can be used.
A Pact with Angels would fly in the face of all the themes and fluff they've established for Warlocks.
Until you read the book, angelic choir and see what the class is like, thats just an assumption. Beyond forming a pact with an angel, you don't know anything about the build at all. You might be suprised and actually see how well it works, or you might hate it. But you won't know until you read it.
I personally don't like to close things off so much that there is no room for creativity and thats kinda what some folks are doing. Basically saying "if you play a warlock like that, your doing it wrong", which isn't right. Now if its not your personal tastes, thats fine, nothing wrong with that. But the OP was looking for a celestial pact and unless he's talking about making a pact with a god (which is basically a divine class) then the angelic pact is exactly what he's looking for. It deals with angels and remains arcane but has the option to be changed to divine if the players want too. (which is just reflavoring) So he can either reflavor a wotc divine class or pick up the angelic pact and use it as is. Although, the angelic pact offers new class features and new powers, new magical items, a few new feats and a new paragon path. So its worth looking at, atleast.
Bolded my replies.
"if you play a warlock like that, your doing it wrong"
Nobody is telling you how to play a Warlock, people are talking about the need for such a class feature for the core rules.
And nobody is telling you it's wrong to reflavor things, they're just telling you that it is in fact reflavoring.
The quote should be "if you design a new class feature for warlock that works like that, you're doing it different from the way the class works under core rules"
Just because people advocate consistency, does not mean that they're against creativity.
Just because nothing says that there aren't Angels that don't serve deities doesn't mean that anything says there are. Because all the fluff about Angels in both MMs serve that they serve the Gods.
There can be rebellious angels; they became Devils and Asmodeus.
I downloaded and read the preview of the Sun Pact, and didn't like it. I would download and read a preview of an Angel Pact class feature article and read it as well, if it were available and someone pointed me to it.
I disallow 3rd party material in my game, unless I'm tailoring the material myself for my particular setting, where none of the established races fits a couple of the race concepts.
However, even after reading your blurb on the Angel grimoire-like binding pacts, I still feel that falls more into the domain of divine as they said in the excerpt, and also that it doesn't fit the darkness of the Warlock enough.
Yes, mutable fluff is a good thing. But fluff also establishes the essential characteristics of a class. And as far as I can tell from your Angelic binder thing, it's too based on real-world binder magic lore and falls too little within the scope of what the Warlock does. Truenaming is also not a Warlock sort of thing, because s/he makes pacts; s/he doesn't draw strength from divine words of power.
But you're free to use them if you wish, you don't need my approval. I'm not perfect, and I make mistakes, as you pointed out so clearly. But I really don't FEEL like Angels fit the Warlock at all, and I don't think that WotC do either.
That's why I suggested the Marut pact, because they're not so associated with the Gods (you'd need to be in the minority of the Angels to not be associated with a deity), but they're beings of the Astral Sea, and their fluff lends themselves to making pacts with mortals.
Given that Devils live in the Astral Sea, are the cursed rebellious servents of the gods and are therefore thoroughly divine in nature, then does that not suggest that the infernal pact should be divine not arcane?
Warlocks in places come close to straddling the Divine/Arcane border. I think that's no bad thing.
It's probably as dangerous to try and create a pact with an Angel of the Raven Queen as it is with a Devil - they're both going to want your soul in the end.
I would like to see Djinn & Marut pacts too. If it's got power, a Warlock wants a taste of it
Given that Devils live in the Astral Sea, are the cursed rebellious servents of the gods and are therefore thoroughly divine in nature, then does that not suggest that the infernal pact should be divine not arcane?
No, because Devils don't lve int he Astral Sea. They live in the Elemental Chaos.
No, because Devils don't lve int he Astral Sea. They live in the Elemental Chaos.
I think you're confusing devils and demons.
Just because nothing says that there aren't Angels that don't serve deities doesn't mean that anything says there are. Because all the fluff about Angels in both MMs serve that they serve the Gods.
Quote from MM1
"They most often serve the gods" (which means there are times when they don't and can operate independantly in their own interests)
Quote from MM1
" Today, they continue to act as mercenary forces to anyone willing to meet their price, be it wealth, power or a cause worthy of their attention." (which means that they can operate independantly in their own interests)
The point is, a warlock can form a pact with an angel as long as the dm allows it. The dm can tell a player that the warlock cannot take a pact, whether its infernal, star, fey, vermin or angelic. If a player (the OP) wants to play a angelic pact warlock, I see no problem with that at all.
There can be rebellious angels; they became Devils and Asmodeus.
I agree, but there can also be independant angels who do not serve the gods and instead work as free agents.
I would download and read a preview of an Angel Pact class feature article and read it as well, if it were available and someone pointed me to it.
I'll ask my friend where he got his, I don't own the angelic choir, I'm checking out the print out my friend has.
However, even after reading your blurb on the Angel grimoire-like binding pacts, I still feel that falls more into the domain of divine as they said in the excerpt, and also that it doesn't fit the darkness of the Warlock enough.
K, well, personally, I have no problem picturing the darker side of heaven, thanks in part to the angelic pact build, asmodeus and the fact that angels can be as brutal, dark, vile and deceptive as demons. More so. Besides, Devils are divine, yet infernal warlocks are arcane and that doesn't bother anyone. A warlock isn't making a pact with a god and divine classes deal with gods for the most part, by faith or through a convenant. Warlocks don't, so be it angelic or infernal, it still fits the arcane option. The OP, the person looking for this build, probably has a different opinion, which is why I brought it up. Because its the OP that wants to play a celestial pact warlock, which is basically the angelic pact.
Yes, mutable fluff is a good thing. But fluff also establishes the essential characteristics of a class. And as far as I can tell from your Angelic binder thing, it's too based on real-world binder magic lore and falls too little within the scope of what the Warlock does. Truenaming is also not a Warlock sort of thing, because s/he makes pacts; s/he doesn't draw strength from divine words of power.The angelic warlock doesn't draw strength from divine words. The angelic warlock uses the language of the gods and angels to gain control over its foes. You'd have to read the build to know whether or not it actually fits, instead of basing everything on hear-say. But, whether or not you or I or anyone other than the OP, likes it, doesn't matter. Its up to the OP if its what he's looking for. Also, its not "my" "angelic binder thing. Its a product of adamant entertainment/venture 4th. I'm just letting the OP know that what he's looking for already exists.
But you're free to use them if you wish, you don't need my approval. I'm not perfect, and I make mistakes, as you pointed out so clearly. But I really don't FEEL like Angels fit the Warlock at all, and I don't think that WotC do either.
I know I don't need your or anyone elses approval. Thats not why I posted about the pact in the first place, I posted it for the OP. As for how wotc feels about something? Who cares? Its up to the dm and the player using the idea, not strangers on a forum or the publisher. Consider it a homebrew build for the warlock if that makes it easier. If the player wants it, and its an idea the player likes and the player see's the idea clearly and it makes sense to the player, but it goes against the vision the dm has about a concept, where does that leave the player?
This is again a case of a dm needlessly restricting players for bad reasons. If the mechanics do not break the balance, then how an idea feels to the dm shouldn't matter if the player likes it.
That's why I suggested the Marut pact, because they're not so associated with the Gods (you'd need to be in the minority of the Angels to not be associated with a deity), but they're beings of the Astral Sea, and their fluff lends themselves to making pacts with mortals.
As does angels. You don't need the majority to do something with a pc. Infact, you only need the exception. So if there is only a single player who wants a unique pact, then it only needs a single angel. Although, according to MM1, there seems to be more than enough angels that do not serve the gods, or atleast, not devoted. So forming a pact with a mortal, as long as it benefits the angel, isn't a problem if the OP's dm allows it, which he should as long as the build doesn't break the balance of the game. Or, just tell the OP that he can't play what he wants because it goes against what other people think a warlock should be.
Bolded my replies.
"if you play a warlock like that, your doing it wrong"Nobody is telling you how to play a Warlock, people are talking about the need for such a class feature for the core rules.
Basically, thats exactly what is happening, except in a much more polite manner.
And nobody is telling you it's wrong to reflavor things, they're just telling you that it is in fact reflavoring.
Thats not an issue.
The quote should be "if you design a new class feature for warlock that works like that, you're doing it different from the way the class works under core rules"
So now your telling me my quote is wrong. lol.
Just because people advocate consistency, does not mean that they're against creativity.
Well, if you read the replies to the pact I posted, its not an issue of consistency and unless people read the product the pact is featured in, they don't know anything beyond the basic idea of what the pact is about, so they don't know if it fits along with the other pacts or not. Also, with the amount of resistance against the idea, I'd say that it is, indeed an issue of people being against the idea because it doesn't fit their vision of the warlock, which is against creativity.
Although, to their credit, they have mostly been very polite and mature during the discussion, which is uncommon around here. But again, everyone seems to be missing the point, that I'm offering this as a suggestion to the OP and others are saying "WHY" it doesn't work, without even knowing anything about the build beyond "you form a pact with an angel and can use true names as a class feature".
bolded.
I don't think it's against creativity as much as against the nature of the warlock. I think it's an interesting, DIVINE, idea, that might be fun as a build of the Invoker or as a whole new Divine Class concept. I just feel it's a bit out of the scope of the Warlock itself.
Then again, there are Storm Wardens, and there are Stormwardens, and there are Thunderborn Barbarians and Storm Sorcerers; there are Avengers, there are Holy Avengers, there are Angelic Avengers, there are Avenging Paladins; there are Assassins, there are Shadow Assassins; there are Zealous Assassins; so who's to say where there's room for another build or two?
I just don't think it's the direction that the officially sanctioned material will every take it in (though I'll be amused if I'm wrong), and core material + a tiny of my own homebrew races (which are easier to build than classes or builds) is a all I play.
The OP can use this build if s/he wants, and I'd give it a look. I just don't think I'd actually play it.
On the other hand, I was greatly inspired by someone's idea of the Shepherd class, and I wish that WotC would take Divine in that sort of the direction in the future. Still, I'm not going to play a Homebrewed Shepherd, because I don't think that homebrew classes and third party classes and builds get the balance right enough to trust them not to break my game.
So, I'm sorry for being very contrary to your ideas, because I think we agree on some of your essential points about the rights the OP.
I gotta ask. What makes an infernal pact any less divine than an angelic pact?
Salla: My warlocks just tap into other planes as a power source, no wheeling and dealing involved.
Planar tapping is a solid option for Warlock flavor.
Im not a fan of any of the 'groveling' classes, whose official flavor requires cowtowing to powerful creatures. For me, these include all of the Divine classes and the Warlock class.
Originally, the designers intended the Bard to be a groveling class too, whose flavor would require extraplanar music 'patrons' to get their Bard powers. Yuck. Fortunately, I was extremely happy by the time of publication, when the devs switched the Bard to an openended flavor. It lists several appealing examples for how Bard characters may acquire their powers. I love the class.
I dont mind groveling as a flavor option ... because fanatic personality cults dedicated to a sociopathic monster can make an interesting element in the campaign setting. However, play a groveler character myself?! It aint gonna happen.
No, because Devils don't lve int he Astral Sea. They live in the Elemental Chaos.
I think you're confusing devils and demons.
Yes, yes, I was thinking demons, not devils.
Salla: My warlocks just tap into other planes as a power source, no wheeling and dealing involved.
Planar tapping is a solid option for Warlock flavor.
Im not a fan of any of the 'groveling' classes, whose official flavor requires cowtowing to powerful creatures. For me, these include all of the Divine classes and the Warlock class.
Originally, the designers intended the Bard to be a groveling class too, whose flavor would require extraplanar music 'patrons' to get their Bard powers. Yuck. Fortunately, I was extremely happy by the time of publication, when the devs switched the Bard to an openended flavor. It lists several appealing examples for how Bard characters may acquire their powers. I love the class.
I dont mind groveling as a flavor option ... because fanatic personality cults dedicated to a sociopathic monster can make an interesting element in the campaign setting. However, play a groveler character myself?! It aint gonna happen.
I'v played many divine characters and none of them have been "govelers" lol.
I gotta ask. What makes an infernal pact any less divine than an angelic pact?
Probably because as a race formed of fallen angels cursed by the god they betrayed, devils sort of represent an anti-divine power.
I am personally waiting for them to come out with a bunny pact warlock. My warlock draws his power from powerful, ancient rabbit lords! But should he ever cease hopping to their bidding, they'll drag him down to their den.
Their warm, cuddly den.
I gotta ask. What makes an infernal pact any less divine than an angelic pact?
Probably because as a race formed of fallen angels cursed by the god they betrayed, devils sort of represent an anti-divine power.
Yet its perfectly ok for the poster child of traitor angels cursed by the gods to grant divine power? (asmodeus is divine after all, and his divine followers use divine powers)
Doesn't make sense to me.
But Asmodeus doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the Infernal Pact, or with the Tieflings. In fact, he KILLED the Devils who created the first Tieflings and invented the Infernal Pact, because they were ways to UNDERMINE his power. It says so in Arcane Power, so it must be true.
In fact, the Infernal Pact is as much undermining Asmodeus as it is any other god.
I gotta ask. What makes an infernal pact any less divine than an angelic pact?
Probably because as a race formed of fallen angels cursed by the god they betrayed, devils sort of represent an anti-divine power.
I'm not seeing "anti-divine" at all. Asmodeus is a divine god after all. I'd say devils are anti - astral sea god & the allies of the gods, but not anti divine. Devils are as divine as angels, they're just the flip side of the same coin. The curse didn't remove their divinity or their origin.
But Asmodeus doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the Infernal Pact, or with the Tieflings. In fact, he KILLED the Devils who created the first Tieflings and invented the Infernal Pact, because they were ways to UNDERMINE his power. It says so in Arcane Power, so it must be true.
In fact, the Infernal Pact is as much undermining Asmodeus as it is any other god.
I know there is no link between asmodeus and a warlock pact, that wasn't my point. My point is, I see nothing that supports the infernal pact being any less divine than an angelic pact. If a pact with a devil is arcane, then a pact with an angel would be arcane. They're the same thing, its like elves and drow. Both exist in the astral sea, hometown of the divine. Also, when did I mention tieflings? Where did they come into the discussion? Tieflings wouldn't influence the nature of a pact one way or the other. They're just another race who can be warlocks, nothing more.
Also, warlocks can worship gods, and warlocks join cults of asmodeus and other religious organizations. (inserted due to older reply info)
And not all pacts have the same overall theme, and those that do all have exceptions, so not all warlocks are even remotely similar beyond being warlocks. A feypact warlock is very different than an infernal pact warlock. So an angelic warlock wouldn't really break any sort of theme or flavor. I mean, "feylocks" can be good guy, defending animals and nature, "infernalocks" can use their pacts to combat servants of the nine hells. So when it comes to fitting the flavor, the only thing that can be said is that Warlocks "often" make pacts with entities that are against the gods. Often doesn't mean always (feypact/vestigepact isn't actually anti gods) So angelic doesn't really break any sort of flavor for pacts.
So we can say that, in general, not many angelic warlocks exist, as they most often take other types of pacts, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. There is also nothing that claims devils are any less divine than angels. Divine doesn't equal good in 4e, since asmodeus, torog, lolth and more are divine and as evil as it gets.
So, I think people have a harder time accepting an angelic pact as arcane due to a misconception about what divine really means in 4e. A pact between an angel and a mortal doesn't mean "Holy" or "Divine" or "Good" and doesn't break any sort of consistency since the only consistant aspect of pacts is "generally" and not "always", shown as "most often", which leaves room for the exceptions which plays out with pc's and npc's. Also, each pact is very different from another and as said before, not all pacts are made with entities that go against the gods, only most often it that the case. And since angels can work independantly of the gods, nothing says there can not be angels that work against the gods for whatever reason, or just work for themselves, having no concern or loyalty to the gods at all.
Anyways, people are going to hold to their views, regardless. Its a fun discussion, so we can keep it going, but unless there are solid reasons why an infernal pact is any less divine/ any more arcane than an angelic pact, I don't see this going anywhere but in circles.
It IS a fun discussion.
However, Divine classes never summon or related with Devils, but they do with Angels. Warlocks deal with Devils, but not with Angels. Seems there's a fundamental difference here, and it's that Angels usually serve the deities, while Devils not so much.
I mentioned Tieflings as an aside. Sorry for pulling open a whole other can of worms.
I agree, this conversation is going in circles, but it's FUN.
It IS a fun discussion.
However, Divine classes never summon or related with Devils, but they do with Angels. Warlocks deal with Devils, but not with Angels. Seems there's a fundamental difference here, and it's that Angels usually serve the deities, while Devils not so much.
I mentioned Tieflings as an aside. Sorry for pulling open a whole other can of worms.
I agree, this conversation is going in circles, but it's FUN.
Hmm, what would a divine class, worshiper of asmodeus summon? Angel or Devil?
What would a lawful good deva warlock form a pact with? Angel or Devil?
The only difference I'm getting at all, is flavor. But the flavor doesn't tell me that either is anymore divine or arcane than the other. I mean, I see exactly what you're saying with the angel/demon thing for divine and warlocks, but at the same time, even the books leave room for the exceptions. Not all warlocks deal with devils and given the asmodeus divine follower example, its safe to assume that divine classes can deal with devils. So its also safe to assume that warlocks can make pacts with angels and those pacts can be arcane in nature.
I just don't see devils being any less divine than angels, since they're all creatures of the astral sea, both having the same original origins. I also don't see how a connection with the astral sea makes something any less arcane. Corellon, Ioun and Vecna are divine, yet deal with the arcane. I'm sure there are arcane spellcasters among the angels.
It just seems plausable, given that its an exception and not the standard and the way the angelic pact works (powers and such) makes it work even better. The class features are not even a stretch when you read up on warlocks, True names are nothing new, although they are not called such in the phb or AP, but there is fluff in both of those books about naming a foe and gaining benefits against it, by making the foe known to the entity the warlock has a pact with.
The angelic pact just brings certain "background" aspects of the class, into the spotlight.
PS: No worries on the tiefling thing, I was just checking incase I missed something.
Sounds to me, then, that the dark Angel pacts are really just refluffs of the Infernal pact, rather than it's own thing.
The absense of devils in Divine classes is likely because the classes aren't meant to be evil. I'd expect an evil Invoker of Asmodeus would summon devils, but that's such a small group of players that having angels for summons makes more sense. That and devils are Asmodeus thing primarily, although other evil gods use them. Angels, regardless of the deity, are servants of all divine beings.
And I'm confused as to where the Infernal Pact devils came from. The devils are ones killed by Asmodeus, or banished, or whatever he did to them. Devils didn't exist prior to Asmodeus' rebellion, and I'd bet that any angels that didn't want to rebel would simply have left the plane, thus avoiding the curse that turned the other angels into devils. So, if the devils are ones in favor of defeating Asmodeus, yet devils only existed after Asmodeus rebelled, and the ones who rebelled with him were probably in favor of him, where did the Infernal Pact devils come from? I hope that I'm explaining this properly, just something I thought of.
Anyways, angels are good, evil, neutral, etc. The devils in the Infernal Pact... aren't necessarily going to care if you're good, evil, or any of that, just like angels wouldn't. If you agree to do what they need done, then they'll grant you power. I feel angels could be just as willing to do so. That, and Divine is all about faith in gods or in some form of belief, and power granted from an outside source. Even if the power becomes the Divine users own to use, it originally came from someone else. Warlocks gain knowledge, nothing else, from their patrons, then use the knowledge to alter the magic in the universe to create unusual effects. I could see an angel being willing to teach someone magic, they aren't granting the power themselves, just the knowledge to use power.
This is a great idea, but someone should post some mechanical rules
And I'm confused as to where the Infernal Pact devils came from. The devils are ones killed by Asmodeus, or banished, or whatever he did to them. Devils didn't exist prior to Asmodeus' rebellion, and I'd bet that any angels that didn't want to rebel would simply have left the plane, thus avoiding the curse that turned the other angels into devils. So, if the devils are ones in favor of defeating Asmodeus, yet devils only existed after Asmodeus rebelled, and the ones who rebelled with him were probably in favor of him, where did the Infernal Pact devils come from? I hope that I'm explaining this properly, just something I thought of.
Well just think about it, not all of the devils are currently supporters of Asmodeus. Devils are by their nature traitorous beings. As I recall there has been at least one rebllion by members of the Lord of the Nine before. Just because they fought together against He Who Was doesn't mean they are all buddy buddy now. The devils who first taught the infernal pact to mortals were trying to get power for themselves by creating an effective method for channeling souls to themselves. Asmodeus learned what the devils were doing, so he beat them up and then erased any record of their name from existence(sort of like what happened to He Who Was). However the secrets for drawing upon the raw essence of the nine hells persisted.
@ where the rebellious devils came from - After the betrayal of asmodeus and the creation of the devils. This is when the infernal pact devils events would play out and asmodeus would have dealt with them.
@ posting mechanics. I can't post mechanics from the book of angelic choir without breaking CoC copywrite rules. I think you can get it from rpg.net or whatever its called.
Sounds to me, then, that the dark Angel pacts are really just refluffs of the Infernal pact, rather than it's own thing.
Dark angel pact sounds cool and is a single possibility on how to play the anglic choir pact. You could run it in any alignment, so you could turn the very power of heaven against itself, just as you can with the infernal or use your powers however you like.
The infernal pact might sound like a refluff, but you'd need to look at its powers to see the differences, its not the same.
then post some homebrew mechanics
That wasn't what he was trying to do.
Duke was simply saying that the Angelic Choir Pact, from a third party source, is something for the OP to look at, considering that the OP is interested in a Celestial Pact. He wasn't out to create one of his own, to my knowledge.
On my side, I was trying to convince the OP that a Celestial Pact Warlock isn't a Warlock at all, but some Divine Class. I was the Prosecuting Attourney, and Duke the Defending, on the issue of whether the Celestial Pact should exist.
It may not make sense when you break it down, but that's the way it goes with Arcane, it's a mystery.
With power sources people tend to think of Arcane as being something completely separate, but from what I have read about Arcane is that it's connected to all things and flow throughout the entire multiverse.
What exactly is the difference between an Evil Angel and a Devil; if they're the same thing then I would just say that Infernal Pact is the Angelic Pact, if they are two different kind of beings then I would think it would be because the Angel is still connected to the gods and thus Divine and the Devil have been forsaken by the gods and thus are Arcane.
WotC seem to have Angels and Devils as two different power sources, look at the EDs Exalted Angel and Prince of Hell.
IMO, the fundamental difference between Angels and Devils is the Gods, the angels are Divine being because of their connection to the gods, Devils do not have that connection so their power is something else, Arcane.
And I don't think Devils have the same connection to Asmodeus that Angels do.
Asmodeus has angels of his own. The devils aren't his angels, so they wouldn't draw on divine power through their connection with him.
Devils are just corrupted angels though. There isn't any reason why the devils wouldn't draw on divine energy as much as angels. Unless being corrupted forced them to rely on Arcane energy, but there isn't any real reason for that to be possible. Especially since Far Realm beings don't use Arcane energy, or as far as we know, and Vestiges probably draw on Divine energy in some cases, if they're supposed to be left-over gods and other powerful beings. Long roundabout way of saying I don't think Devils would draw on Arcane energy for their power source, and the Warlock pact doesn't really prove anything for them using it, coupled with the fact they are former angels.
This is a fun thread.
A plausible source option for "celestial" or "angelic" warlock pacts would be the angels on the loosing side of Asmodeus's rebellion. The survivors that remained loyal to their god might be cut off from much of their divine power, but they would still have vast knowledge and secrets to trade, just like their infernal brethren.
I can only speak for myself, but it is a warlock pact whose flavor i would enjoy.
That sounds like a good idea. Angels who once served a god, but can't serve that god anymore. Perhaps they are still loyal to him, which is why they don't serve another one. They still have the trade secrets of being an angel, and are willing to help you out a bit, if you help them. They'd probably be trying to bring back their god, however that would work. Sounds perfectly plausible.
Now this I could possibly get behind.
That sounds like a good idea. Angels who once served a god, but can't serve that god anymore. Perhaps they are still loyal to him, which is why they don't serve another one. They still have the trade secrets of being an angel, and are willing to help you out a bit, if you help them. They'd probably be trying to bring back their god, however that would work. Sounds perfectly plausible.
So it's like Vestige Pact... but with the dead god's minions instead of the dead god?
Well, I suppose that would be a way to explain it. However, Vestiges occupy an entirely different space of existence. They occupy non-existence, of a sort, only able to communicate through Warlocks, or so I gathered. Angels still exist in the Astral Plane, and they still have all the divine knowledge, just none of the power. Of course, similarities exist all the time in this game series, so it isn't that big a deal.
radiant powers.... I'd have to agree with Matt.
With power sources people tend to think of Arcane as being something completely separate, but from what I have read about Arcane is that it's connected to all things and flow throughout the entire multiverse.
So... it's the Force?
I always saw the Arcane power source as the power of going to school.
Wizard - the student who studied hard to excell
Sorcerer - the student who never had to study, due to natural talent
Warlock - the student who cheated to get ahead (alternatively, the student who used unconventional methods)
Bard - the student who combined natural talent with scholarly studies
Swordmage - the student who combined studying with athletic prowess
Artificer - the engineering student
With power sources people tend to think of Arcane as being something completely separate, but from what I have read about Arcane is that it's connected to all things and flow throughout the entire multiverse.
So... it's the Force?
It's like the Force + Math
The way they talk about it in the books reminds me of super string theory
Well, considering that the Swordmage is a Jedi Knight...
Wizard - Jedi Consular
Sorcerer - Force Sensitive with huge midi-chlorian count
Warlock - Force Adept or Dark Side Devotee
Bard - Jedi Sentinel
Swordmage - Jedi Guardian
Artificer - Jedi Artisan
EDIT: this is my 666th post...
For me, Jedi stuff is moreso Psionic magic (mindforce/lifeforce).
Whereas, Arcane is the 'multisource' source that taps into everything from Psionic to Shadow to Divine to Primal to Elemental. Hypothetically, Arcane could even tap into the Martial power source for Jump, Athletic stunts, and trickshot effects. Seems silly if Arcane would be nothing more than an 'anti-Martial' power source.
For me, Jedi stuff is moreso Psionic magic (mindforce/lifeforce).Whereas, Arcane is the 'multisource' source that taps into everything from Psionic to Shadow to Divine to Primal to Elemental. Hypothetically, Arcane could even tap into the Martial power source for Jump, Athletic stunts, and trickshot effects. Seems silly if Arcane would be nothing more than an 'anti-Martial' power source.
Indeed, It's a more Psionic in the way that it relates to the user
I like to think of Arcane as what makes a fantasy settings fantasy
Which is why I think Shadow is so not just an expansion of the Arcane power source; because if Arcane is what brings the setting to life and creates wonderment and Shadow is the power of ruin and bleakness then I think they are very much at odds