The cleric (actually, other players too) in the group that I run maintains that Channel Divinity is a bit underpowered - especially if you burn a feat to get another Channel Divinity power. You now bought a feat that might see a use in an encounter.
To wit: the cleric is a worshipper of Tymora, and has the following Channel Divinity options:
1. CD: Divine Fortune (+1 to next attack or save before next turn ends)
2. CD: Turn Undead (push/immobilize/damage undead in a burst)
3. CD: Tymora's Coin (if roll a 1 or 20, before end of next turn you can roll twice for any one attack or save)
The cleric's issues:
A. Divine Fortune pales in comparision to the other two. A +1 to one attack seems so benign that it should be allowed once per encounter.
B. With an undead encounter, Divine Fortune is eliminated as an option. Tymora's coin will not be a big consideration either - undead turning is better.
C. Tymora's Coin is a limited (10% chance per d20 roll) power - yet still better than Divine Fortune - so that the player can never justify using Divine Fortune since if that 10% (a 1 or 20) happens, the double roll is better.
Any arguments to the contrary? (You know, like "CD is way overpowered!") ;)
If anything, maybe allowing Divine Favor once per encounter, but for other Channel Divinity powers a choice must be made to use them?
Thanks,
Chirodox
The point of Divine Fortune was to give clerics a minor option for using their Turn Undead in encounters where there were no undead. The point of the Channel Divinity feats is basically to give a better option than Divine Fortune.
In short, Divine Fortune is supposed to suck and will almost never be used by a cleric who takes a decent alternative CD feat.
2) Channel Divinity is not an important part of the game. It is not a major feature of any of the divine classes. Clerics get healer's lore, healing word, and ritual caster, which are far more important than CD.
A +1 to hit or to a save is a useful power. Turn Undead is a very situational power, but is also very strong. Accept CD powers for what they are. They are not the game-breaking super powers of the 3e domains. Nor are they key encounter powers that are meant to have a major spotlight each encounter. They are a very minor feature that offer a small bit of versatility.
You don't see rangers complaining about how weak Prime Shot is. They are just happy to have that extra free bonus occasionally. Clerics should show the same gratitude.
1) Divine Feats are not an important part of the game. Most divine characters will never take one and will be no worse for it.
2) Channel Divinity is not an important part of the game. It is not a major feature of any of the divine classes. Clerics get healer's lore, healing word, and ritual caster, which are far more important than CD.
A +1 to hit or to a save is a useful power. Turn Undead is a very situational power, but is also very strong. Accept CD powers for what they are. They are not the game-breaking super powers of the 3e domains. Nor are they key encounter powers that are meant to have a major spotlight each encounter. They are a very minor feature that offer a small bit of versatility.
You don't see rangers complaining about how weak Prime Shot is. They are just happy to have that extra free bonus occasionally. Clerics should show the same gratitude.
May I ask how you came to this conclusion? Channeling the power of a diety looks like a pretty big deal to me. Just the fact that the current Channel Divinity powers aren't that strong doesn't mean that the entire Feature should remain an "extra".
Of course Divine Fortune doesn't seem as powerful as Tymora's coin.
Divine Fortune is just the default, basic Channel divinity power when not fighting undeads - the channel feats are meant to overshadow this power in most situations (I can see some situation where the +1 to a save can be a better choice).
In short: no, I would not allow each Channel power to be used independently once by encounter. Anyway, there is an epic destiny for this, even if I can't remember the name right now.
1) Divine Feats are not an important part of the game.
...unless you're a cleric of Tempus, that is.
Channeling the power of a diety looks like a pretty big deal to me.
Regardless of what the fluff looks like to you, it is irrelevant to the mechanics.
The Channel Divinity prayer is giving up power slightly in exchange for flexibility. So don't think of it as two or three extremely weak powers... think of it as one power with two or three different potential uses.
May I ask how you came to this conclusion? Channeling the power of a diety looks like a pretty big deal to me. Just the fact that the current Channel Divinity powers aren't that strong doesn't mean that the entire Feature should remain an "extra".
I came to that conclusion because the other features the cleric has are very strong. I also came to that conclusion based on the evolution of past editions. During 1e and 2e, clerics had turn undead. If there were undead in the encounter, you were awesome. If there weren't, no loss. It was a cool and flavorful ability but it only came up sporadically.
In 3e, they decided to allow clerics to take feats in order to get more use out of all those turn attempts they weren't using during most encounters. They could take a feat to use up their turn undead and get a bonus to damage instead, or some healing, or the infamous and disastrous Divine Metamagic.
In 4e, they took it one small step further. Instead of just giving them Turn Undead, they also gave them a minor alternative automatically without forcing them to take a CD feat like they had to in 3e. They were careful to make sure it was not an impressive ability, otherwise divine feats would be pointless. But they also made it passable so that players who did not take CD feats did not feel compelled to like they were in 3e.
It is not, and never was supposed to be, a major power that influences every encounter. It is just the old, often superfluous, Turn Undead of 1e, with a little side use so you aren’t just waiting to fight undead all the time. That Divine Feats clearly obey FSBNNR, while not being lame either, they struck the right balance.
As for your comment that channeling the power of a deity should not be a minor element, I think you are getting caught up on diction. In one sense, ALL of a cleric’s features and powers involve channeling the power of your deity. CD is not parting the red sea, it is a small bit of radiant energy that you can use to harm the walking dead or to empower an ally, and, with training, other more useful effects.
Another mistake made a lot on these forums is the erroneous conclusion that channel divinity should be equal for all divine classes. Avengers, Invokers, and Paladins have much more powerful CD powers than divine guidance. But those classes should not be compared on that axis alone. Also the cleric’s CD powers may be intentionally weaker so that CD feats become more of a cleric thing than an all-divine classes thing.
Still, I feel that the Channel Divinity feature isn't what it's supposed to be. Maybe more powerfull effects that have the drawback of harming the user/party? Something to the effect of a regular encounter power (scales with level) but the user becomes dazed/stunned/takes [x] ongoing damage.
I let them gain an additional use of channel divinity per 2 feats they take. (Still can only use a specific one once per encounter)
Doesn't seem to break anything in my games. (not just clerics but any divine class)
I also suspect we'll see Paragon and Epic tier Channel Divinities with stronger effects than the ones we've seen so far. Hopefully the ones in DP will be "generic" like Turn Undead, with deity-specific ones done through Dragon. The amount of space it would take to give one or two new, higher-tier CD powers to each deity makes including it in a print book a bit unappealing to me.
2) Channel Divinity is not an important part of the game. It is not a major feature of any of the divine classes.
Channel Divinity is important for Chaladins. It may be not an "major feature", but it is a good power: Once per encounter, as a minor action, give an ally a saving throw + CHAmod.
Channel Divinity is important for Chaladins. It may be not an "major feature", but it is a good power: Once per encounter, as a minor action, give an ally a saving throw + CHAmod.
This.
The ability to remove Ongoing Damage before the first tick, or to allow someone to overcome Dazed/Unconcious before they lose their turn has caused my DM to wail an gnash his teeth on many occasions.
Maybe the Domains will give some more CD options, but it's nice to have an encounter power with multiple effects to choose from.
I thought Righteous Wrath of Tempus was a major feature of every divine character ever made.
No it isn't, because only a fraction of divine characters believe in tempus.
For Tempus-believers, it is quiet strong, but for my pelor-paladin this is not a choice, example given.
No it isn't, because only a fraction of divine characters believe in tempus.
For Tempus-believers, it is quiet strong, but for my pelor-paladin this is not a choice, example given.
You mean there are people somewhere that don't play divine characters that worship Tempus? ;)
Ive seen a lot of stuff from the new Eberron book and there is a new Channel Divinity that will be the new cheese for healing characters. With the right abuse of the rules (everyone laying prone in a square) or an Architect's Staff, it will let you heal the whole party one healing-surge-worth for the cost of only one of yours. Eat that, Tempus!
Righteous Rage of Pelor, then.
I would rahter refluff "melora's tide" to "pelor's curing light" (or something like that).
Damage is not all.
Melora's Tide grants you or an ally regeneration 2/4/6 (heroic/paragon/epic) until the end of the encounter or until the target is no longer bloodied. This can save you 2 healing surges!
Put this on an ally around 0 hitpoints after the fight. He will be at 50% with that! (without using healing surges!)
And in the encounter, it can become very handy, too.
Tempus is not the only God with a decent chanel divinity.
(I like pelor's radiance; But there are too less undead in the actual campaign. In an undead-campaign it would be a great feat)
I'd be mildly surprised if Divine Power didn't include a feat that let you use more than one Channel power per encounter, although I hope they won't let you use the same one multiple times. Undead have enough problems against Divines as-is.
What I actually hope they do is alter the wording so that the CD class feature permits the use of any one CD power in an encounter. The individual CD powers could then be Encounter, At-Will or Daily powers; Righteous Rage of Tempus could be defined as a Daily power, while Divine Fortune might be at-Will. Channel Divinity would allow the use of either one in an encounter, but RRoT could only be so used once between Extended Rests while DF could be used multiple times in the same encounter (requiring the use of a minor action each time, say).