To begin this thread, I'd like to suggest that today's Witchalock April Fools Joke actualy has a clue hidden in it. The section in qauestion is quoted below:
Witchaloks are the heirs of a billion-year heritage of baleful sorcery—sorcery substantially more baleful than their magical contemporaries. Necromancers are, by Witchalok standards, insufficiently baleful. Defilers entertain children at Witchalok birthday parties. Liches are commonly used as a punchline in Witchalok stand-up routines. Tiamat is almost bad enough almost, but not quite.
The Defilers are returning and Dark Sun comes with them!
Allah willing.
In the last issue of Dragon mentioned that we would start to get clues towards the new campaign setting starting this month. This thread is meant as a place where you can post any potential clues that you find, and these potential clues can be scrutinized by the other forum goers. Of course there is no way to know for sure whether a clue is genuine or not, so this is of course entirely speculation.
To begin this thread, I'd like to suggest that today's Witchalock April Fools Joke actualy has a clue hidden in it. The section in qauestion is quoted below:
As you'll notice in the quoted passage, it makes reference to defilers. Now upon searching through the PHB, MM, and DMG there is no mention of any defilers found at all. When searching through the Compendium only one reference is found which is the Rotvine Defiler from Open Grave. I think it is safe to say that the passage was not referring to that creature.
So then what was it referring to? A quick check in wikipedia shows that the Defiler was a second edition class, and there was even a book with the class name in it. So where did the defiler class come from? The Dark Sun Campaign Setting. The Defilers are returning and Dark Sun comes with them!
I noticed that too. And I am REALLY hoping that you are right. Really, really, really hoping.
Though I was speculating, and nothing more (including already released/confirmed):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
Who knows? Might get a teaser for it at PAX here in Boston next year
And yes - Dark Sun would frickin' rock! I loved the setting under the revised AD&D ruleset. The sourcebook with Defilers and Preservers was one of my favorite (I actually owned multiple copies of it due to overuse).
But hey its just all speculation. And I think that April fools articles should not be looked at for this type of speculation. And I will have to go back to read it but I think he said in future Ampersand articles. But not sure about that.
Yeah, it would be great, to tie in with Psionics in the PHB III.
Though I was speculating, and nothing more (including already released/confirmed):
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy made obsolete after three monts by a new trilogy of novels)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
Fixed that for ya. :P
EDIT: As I state below, that was a near miss: I meant Dragonlance and not Dark Sun, of course.
Fixed that for ya. :P
Huh?
That made no sense.
At least, not to me.
And Dragonlance has no place.
Huh?
That made no sense.
At least, not to me.
And Dragonlance has no place.
Every time a new DR campaign setting cames out, it takes only a few months before someone publishes a novel that wreaks havoc on it. Like, you know, The invasion of the ALIEN DRAGONS FROM OUTER SPACE.
Every time a new DR campaign setting cames out, it takes only a few months before someone publishes a novel that wreaks havoc on it. Like, you know, The invasion of the ALIEN DRAGONS FROM OUTER SPACE.
Then, um...
Why did you put that next to Dark Sun?
Or are you saying that they'll turn Krynn into an Athas Look-alike?
Every time a new DR campaign setting cames out, it takes only a few months before someone publishes a novel that wreaks havoc on it. Like, you know, The invasion of the ALIEN DRAGONS FROM OUTER SPACE.
And this is why novels should not be considered canonical.
It may have been an April Fool's, but that's as good a place to sneak a clue in as anywhere else. I also think Necromancers are going to appear in PHB3.
I also think Necromancers are going to appear in PHB3.
There is no way they're publishing Monks, Psionic classes and Necromancers in the same book! IMO.
There is no way they're publishing Monks, Psionic classes and Necromancers in the same book! IMO.
Actually, I disagree. Note that the first Player's Handbook consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine, and Martial. Note also that the Player's Handbook 2 consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine and Primal. Thus, it stands to reason that the Player's Handbook 3 will likewise consist of three power sources.
They've already stated, apparently, that Martial will likely only gain new classes in campaign crunch books for the time being. Arcane and Divine have an abundance of options. Primal received all four roles in its initial showing. While Primal could receive a couple of new classes, it is completely within the realms of reason that the PH3 could contain only "new" power sources. Psionic and Ki make perfect sense together (with a tie-in to Githyanki/Githzerai, a very good contender for one of the PH3 races), and Shadow is quite desired, not to mention the only power source of the ones mentioned by name in the PHB.
So, Player's Handbook 3: Psionic, Ki and Shadow Heroes seems quite likely, in my opinion.
By that logic Al-Quadim or Greyhawk could be next since 2 monsters in the Dungeon Delve are tied to those to settings.
But hey its just all speculation. And I think that April fools articles should not be looked at for this type of speculation. And I will have to go back to read it but I think he said in future Ampersand articles. But not sure about that.
He does say next few columns, but that doesn't mean that it is limited there.
And if you don't want to think that it is aclue, then that is fine as I admit this is tenuous one at best. I decided to start this thread to get other people's opinions on it. I do belive that it is different from the Fool's Grove monsters as those were a bunch of "silly" monsters from past editions being updated. However the defiler comment came in the listing of forms of evil, and referencing an old 2nd edition class in a list of evil seemed off to me. Is it conclusive proof? No. But that doesn't mean we can't speculate.
There is no way they're publishing Monks, Psionic classes and Necromancers in the same book! IMO.
I disagree, I think they are going to publish all of what you listed, and then include the ninja class as well!
(Plus, I'm very interested in not seeing Dragonlance soon, so talk of anything else makes me happy. :P)
(Plus, I'm very interested in not seeing Dragonlance soon, so talk of anything else makes me happy. :P)
I agree with this....although I have a feeling that our motivations are different. My motivation comes from the enjoyment gained by watching the Dragonlance fans trying to justify their fandom in a world that looks at them funny. If they get the campaign setting treatment then they'll have a fall back that isn't entertaining to watch.:P
Mind you, I refuse to let this bias my speculation.:P
Note that the first Player's Handbook consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine, and Martial.
There were some classes they had to print. They were already making enough people angry with not including Half-Orcs, Gnomes, Druids and Sorcerers. There would have been absolute murder had they not included Paladins or Clerics.
Note also that the Player's Handbook 2 consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine and Primal. Thus, it stands to reason that the Player's Handbook 3 will likewise consist of three power sources.
It isn't the fact PHB3 will have 3 power sources. I certainly believe they will. Its the fact that Monks, Psionic classes and Necromancers seem to be the big classes they have yet to publish. Including all 3 in one book will mean that future PHBs lack the draw that including them would have.
So, Player's Handbook 3: Psionic, Ki and Shadow Heroes seems quite likely, in my opinion.
Even that is quite likely. What I find unlikely is that in such a situation Necromancers will be the Shadow-class they include.
Instead I think we'll see Psionics (to tie in with Eberron and to also tie in with Dark Sun), Ki (because its been outright confirmed) and Elemental. That saves Necromancers and Illusionists for PHB4. Because PHB4 is going to need a big draw in it to encourage people to buy it. And I think Necromancers OR Psionic classes will be that draw (although I'm obviously hoping its Necromancers instead of Psionic classes).
All IMO of course.
By your logic it would have made more sense to introduce Sorcerer but not bard yet and save bard for the next PHB.
With the likely hood of 4th edition having a 6 to 8 year run thats 6 to 8 PHB's. If they release more than 1 Power Source each year they will run out of logical Power Sources well before that run ends. 1 per year would work well within the expected life of 4th edition.
Announcing Sha'ir was coming back would make me buy a book though (granted I like the PHBs period so would anyway).
Does Sha'ir have anywhere near the appeal of Monks though? (I've never heard them before).
By your logic it would have made more sense to introduce Sorcerer but not bard yet and save bard for the next PHB.
To a degree. On the one hand, they did include quite a few options that were missing. On the other hand, many of the "big draw" options have significant places Eberron. But yes, i was surprised they included as many of the missing options that were considered "must haves" and as such, wasn't surprised when Monk wasn't in the book ;)
Does Sha'ir have anywhere near the appeal of Monks though? (I've never heard them before).
Considering they would be a pet based Controller, Yes. I would say so.
To a degree. On the one hand, they did include quite a few options that were missing. On the other hand, many of the "big draw" options have significant places Eberron. But yes, i was surprised they included as many of the missing options that were considered "must haves" and as such, wasn't surprised when Monk wasn't in the book ;)
Bards/Barbarians/Monks/Sorcerers have their place in Faerun, so the fact bards/sorcerers have their place in Eberron which is coming out, is meaningless.
I honestly I am not sure if they will do 4/4 or 4/2/2 but it won't be to make fans froth at the mouth about class X not being in PHB 3.
so the fact bards/sorcerers have their place in Eberron which is coming out, is meaningless.
Wasn't so much the classes but the races. It would be awkward to have Dragonmarks for non-playable races.
I honestly I am not sure if they will do 4/4 or 4/2/2 but it won't be to make fans froth at the mouth about class X not being in PHB 3.
Of course it won't be to make fans froth at the mouth. I never said otherwise.
Note that the first Player's Handbook consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine, and Martial. Note also that the Player's Handbook 2 consisted of three power sources: Arcane, Divine and Primal. Thus, it stands to reason that the Player's Handbook 3 will likewise consist of three power sources.
That argument has been shot full of holes many times. And JohnLynch just did it again in this thread, so I won't repeat what he wrote.
However, I am slowly coming around to the possibility of 4/2/2 anyway. I was a firm believer in 4/4, because how else would they be able to publish a reasonable amount of Power books each year? And then they announced MP2...
But I still don't think Ki/Psi/Shadow is a likely combo, because that would be putting all their eggs in one basket. What happens if they put all the classes fanbois are clamoring for in PH3? That's right, nobody will care about PH4.
Then 4/2/2 with Necromancer could work.
And again, we don't even know the edges of what Elemental will look like yet.
I agree with this....although I have a feeling that our motivations are different. My motivation comes from the enjoyment gained by watching the Dragonlance fans trying to justify their fandom in a world that looks at them funny. If they get the campaign setting treatment then they'll have a fall back that isn't entertaining to watch.:P
Mind you, I refuse to let this bias my speculation.:P
You're right, that wasn't my motivation... but it's a part of mine now!
Now that I think of it...I can't imagine at all what Elemental would be... The only thing that ever comes to mind is a bunch of westernized Bender (A la Avatar) versions of Shugenja and Wu Jen and such (which I suppose I wouldn't really mind at all, TBH). Otherwise every attempt I think up turns out like more heavily elementally flavored versions of the primal classes, which would be horrifically stupid, lazy, and boring.
I'm certainly hoping Darksun is the '10 setting, and I believe it will be. I've never gotten to play it, but I've read the material and heard a lot about it, and it sounds to me like the next best thing to Eberron for uniqueness and open-endedness...especially regarding Psionics.
I doubt we'll see Spelljammer come back without severe retooling, probably much more than they'd ever be willing to invest...but I suppose one never knows. It would certainly be cool.
By that logic Al-Quadim
I would love Al-Qadim to make a come back, as to this day I still think it is the most elegant and interesting campaign setting to date.
Every time a new DR campaign setting cames out, it takes only a few months before someone publishes a novel that wreaks havoc on it.
Yeah, I hate busybody authors raping and pillaging campaign settings.
And some combination of below:
-Ardent = Psionic Defender
-Empath = Psionic Leader
-Hexblade – Shadow Defender
-Illusionist = Shadow Controller
-Monk = Ki Striker
-Necromancer = Shadow Leader
-Assassin/Ninja = Shadow Striker
-Shaper/Wilder = Psionic Controller
-Sohei/Soulknife = Ki Defender
-Telepath/Kineticist = Psionic Striker
-Ki Powers: Stunts/Techniques
-Psionic Powers: Manifestations
-Shadow Powers: Mysteries
-Hexblade – Shadow Defender
I still say Duskblade sounds more "Shadowy."
Maybe, Duskblade as the main class, (getting up to Scale) with Hexblade as a Paragon Path.
I still say Duskblade sounds more "Shadowy."
Yeah, but the 3rd Ed Duskblade was more like a 4th Ed Swordmage, IIRC, and they did mention the Hexblade in R&C, but of course it go either way, or not at all!
Yeah, but the 3rd Ed Duskblade was more like a 4th Ed Swordmage, IIRC, and they did mention the Hexblade in R&C, but of course it go either way, or not at all!
Having played both a Duskblade and a Swordmage, I have to say, not really. Some of the differences:
Duskblade:
Can use ANY weapon for their class abilities.
More starting Armor Proficencies(up to Medium, IIRC. Might've been All). A Duskblade wore cloth for Flavor, not because he didn't have the feats to spend on armor.
More blaster-y, less controller-y. Most Duskblade spells were Damage spells, with a few smaller controller effects on the other spells.
I've played (and am still playing) a Duskblade through ECL 22.
Swordmage, as much as I love the class, isn't a retool of Duskblade. It's something new altogether, from the same original Gish ideal. (They're brothers, not twins. If this makes any sense.)
EDIT: and didn't R&C say Sorceror would likely be a controller? Things Change. Especially from the pre-release previews.
They're brothers
And brothers don't shake, brother gotta hug!
Sorceror would likely be a controller? Things Change.
Yep, just like the Monk may not turn out to be a Striker come next month.
Each campaign setting gets 3 books (Player's Guide, Campaign Guide, Adventure), so perhaps WotC is going with a trilogy setup.
Unlikely, I know, especially considering that added on to 2 power sources in the PHB2 and only added 1 new source, they could keep doing somehting similar until they decide to do 5th edition.
Just a thought....
Then, um...
Why did you put that next to Dark Sun?
Because that was a near miss. :D
*shamelessy climbing on mirrors*
EDIT: and didn't R&C say Sorceror would likely be a controller? Things Change. Especially from the pre-release previews.
Nope, different source.
Yep, just like the Monk may not turn out to be a Striker come next month.
Once again, that was not from Races and Classes.
Once again, that was not from Races and Classes.
Never said it was (I was responding to his comment that things change), once again, stop getting busy (and jumping the gun, as usual).
…We've told you about this…
Never said it was (I was responding to his comment that things change), once again, stop getting busy (and jumping the gun, as usual).
…We've told you about this…
Considering some of your recent posts, I hardly think you are someone who should be lecturing me.
Nope, different source.
That's why it was posed as a question.
That's why it was posed as a question.
.....And I answered the question. Is there a problem with that?
Considering some of your recent posts, I hardly think you are someone who should be lecturing me.
They've been awesome and delightful, and I wasn't lecturing you, just trying to give you a heads up to stop misinterpreting people and potentially embarrassing yourself.
But we know what you're trying to do…
…You're really not goods at this, are you?
I should probably put you on ignore, to save myself the tedium of your posts.
They've been awesome and delightful, and I wasn't lecturing you, just trying to give you a heads up to stop misinterpreting people and potentially embarrassing yourself.
But we know what you're trying to do…
…You're really not goods at this, are you?
I should probably put you on ignore, to save myself the tedium of your posts.
I'm sorry, but while you apparently know what I'm trying to do I don't. So please shed some enlightenment as to it is I'm trying to accomplish.
They've been awesome and delightful, and I wasn't lecturing you, just trying to give you a heads up to stop misinterpreting people and potentially embarrassing yourself.
But we know what you're trying to do…
…You're really not goods at this, are you?
I should probably put you on ignore, to save myself the tedium of your posts.
I'm sorry, but while you apparently know what I'm trying to do I don't. So please shed some enlightenment as to it is I'm trying to accomplish.
I have a thought. Neither of you is a troller but since there's so much "troll-paranoia" on the forums, you both think you are. For that matter, I almost think you're the same person arguing with yourself just to lock another thread.
But...I KNOW how utterly unreasonable that is, and so I don't entertain the notion. I know that NIETHER of you are trolls. So why don't you BOTH quit before you DO get the thread locked. The ORCs are a...lock-happy...bunch and they'll close the thread if someone so much as looks at the "report post" button.
Now that that's out of the way. Soulknife had better simply get renamed to Thoughtblade or Mindknife or something else...because if it ends up a Ki class...someone will suffer. And that's acceptable...because I know that not one of you would permit Wizard to suddenly have become a Martial class. You might think Psionics and Ki aren't as far apart as Martial and Arcane, but to me, they couldn't be more different. So...no soulknives getting turned into funky monks...period.
...I still don't think Ki/Psi/Shadow is a likely combo, because that would be putting all their eggs in one basket. What happens if they put all the classes fanbois are clamoring for in PH3? That's right, nobody will care about PH4.
Actually, I totally forgot about Elemental. *slaps forehead* You are right, it is most likely going to be 4 Psionics/2 Ki/2 Elemental.
And yes, Shadow has enough fluff support and fan support alike to be the focus of the PH4, which I hope will be 4 Shadow/2 Ki/2 Elemental. This is where they can pull in more of the Oriental Adventures feel, in my opinion.
Has anyone yet come up with any kind of idea for the Elemental classes...even one?
The elements are effects, keywords, descriptors. They might be sources of power, but they're already covered in nearly every way by all but the Martial power source and most of their associated classes.
What can you do with fire? It can influence style...and it can burn things in many varying ways...well, most casters have that covered, in spades.
Air...wind. Push and pull, movement...maybe some flight...deflection...perhaps some damaging spells. Again, covered by the rest of the classes in some way or another, in spades.
Earth...burrowing, walls, more push and pull, grappling, defensive and aggressive terrain modding, probably some damaging spells. The burrowing might not yet be well-covered, but big whoop... Oh wait, Acid...I think. WTH? Why has the energy type for Earth always been Acid, anyway? Oh well.
Water...anything that involves cold. Honestly...same as the previous three...nothing unique or special. Mostly just the opposite of fire with a little of air and earth thrown in.
All in all, the Elemental power source is one big limp noodle to me.
So, I'm betting on Shadow, Ki, Psionic. 4/2/2, respectively. Monk is the only thing people are clamoring for really in Ki (only a small, but vocal minority are yowling for ninja or samurai, but everyone and is dog is screaming for monk)...so there are likely to be only two ki classes. Psionic only needs a controller or leader with a striker or defender to be ready for Eberron. Shadow though...Assassins, Hexblades, Necromancers, Duskblades, and many others I didn't really get into. Some overlap and are likely to get slapped together, but still. I think Shadow will be the big one, with a couple of Ki and Psionic.
All in all, the Elemental power source is one big limp noodle to me.
I propose it be replaced with an Abyssal power source. Let's get some downright eeevil classes out there.
I still think the Elemental power source is only going to win an award for "Crappiest Power Source Ever."
Has anyone yet come up with any kind of idea for the Elemental classes...even one?
Although this is going some what beyond the scope of the thread, I've seen three ideas that I like. One is the transmuter class, think Full Metal Alchemist. Another would be a class that binds elementals to their equipment(no idea how this would work but it is cool flavor). And the third idea that I've seen is that the classes will have a lot of dual and multi element powers.
I still think the Elemental power source is only going to win an award for "Crappiest Power Source Ever."
Has anyone yet come up with any kind of idea for the Elemental classes...even one?
Sha'ir - Elemental controller
Shunjea - Elemental Leader
Stormbringer - Elemental Striker
Primordial Allegiant - Elemental Defender
There, you have four. the Sha'ir would have a pet. The Shunjea would have a lot of similarity to the Cleric with bits of the Shaman Mixed in, possibly with elemental pets as a feat.
The Stormbringer would be an implement based ranged striker whose dailies had a lasting terrain affect.
The Allegiant wouldn't mark, but enemies who start adjacent to him would be slowed on critical hits they would be immobilized.
I propose it be replaced with an Abyssal power source. Let's get some downright eeevil classes out there.
Best...idea...ever. Bring on the EVIL baby!
(I just wanted to use a bunch of smilies...sorry)
Although this is going some what beyond the scope of the thread, I've seen three ideas that I like. One is the transmuter class, think Full Metal Alchemist. Another would be a class that binds elementals to their equipment(no idea how this would work but it is cool flavor). And the third idea that I've seen is that the classes will have a lot of dual and multi element powers.
The transmuter class might have merit, and actually sounds pretty interesting, but I'm not entirely sure if it's Elemental...but perhaps. I comment more one what I think of Elemental at the end of the post.
Elemental binding sounds a tad on the Arcane side...but perhaps that's some leftover 3.5 thinking I haven't managed to purge yet. I'm open to the prospect.
Sha'ir - Elemental controller
Shunjea - Elemental Leader
Stormbringer - Elemental Striker
Primordial Allegiant - Elemental Defender
There, you have four. the Sha'ir would have a pet. The Shunjea would have a lot of similarity to the Cleric with bits of the Shaman Mixed in, possibly with elemental pets as a feat.
The Stormbringer would be an implement based ranged striker whose dailies had a lasting terrain affect.
The Allegiant wouldn't mark, but enemies who start adjacent to him would be slowed on critical hits they would be immobilized.
The Sha'ir would have a pet (I'm assuming some sort of elemental or elementally attuned creature)...and what else? If they get a pet (which will likely be just like the shaman's pet) and then powers like the other casting classes, then it seems rather bland to me. But then, perhaps I really am expecting too much.
The Shunjea will be basically elemental clerics? So...fire for the "laser" build, earth for the sub-controller build...and air and water for the actual leader core of the class. I suppose it has possibilities. It'll be phenomenally easy to botch into a complete lack of genuine purpose though.
Not really seeing what makes the Stormbringer stand on its own. If it modifies terrain in a lasting fashion, those will be...by definition...zone powers most likely, which isn't what strikers do at all. But, maybe something can be made out of it.
And the Allegiant is a walking zone 1 of slow that paralyzes people with crits? That just doesn't strike me as a good idea at all. At least, not at face value. Maybe that could be altered a bit...dunno really.
Overall though, I'm not really feeling the elements through these. What really makes these representative of elemental power, aside from things like a power that deals an elemental damage type, or an elemental pet? Again, maybe I'm asking for too much.
Martial is obvious, being a power source strictly of physical prowess, enhanced by intellectual prowess in some cases, and all of its classes reflect this admirably.
Arcane is about studying and/or manipulating the magical forces that permeate the world, and most of its classes are good examples, with some being merely acceptable.
Divine is about either beseeching one's deity to take an active role in events, or relying on one's connection through faith that their deity will grant them the capabilities they require. They do about as well as the Arcane classes.
Primal is about channeling or unleashing the raw forces of nature...not simply elements, but life, death, rage, and instinct. The primal classes really do quite well indeed of exemplifying this aspect uniquely.
Ki is about controlling and utilizing the flow of energy through all things, including oneself. It's about form and focus, and we'll just have to wait and see how the classes perform...and in that regard, the same will be true of Psionics and Shadow...so we'll skip them for now.
Then there's Elemental. Channeling the fundamental power and structure of existence...that about sum it up right? Now...what action or methodology, or overall concept of usage, embodies the elemental power source?
Now...so as not to derail the topic...again I state Darksun in '10...null sweat, chummers.
Overall though, I'm not really feeling the elements through these. What really makes these representative of elemental power, aside from things like a power that deals an elemental damage type, or an elemental pet? Again, maybe I'm asking for too much.
Martial is obvious, being a power source strictly of physical prowess, enhanced by intellectual prowess in some cases, and all of its classes reflect this admirably.
Arcane is about studying and/or manipulating the magical forces that permeate the world, and most of its classes are good examples, with some being merely acceptable.
Divine is about either beseeching one's deity to take an active role in events, or relying on one's connection through faith that their deity will grant them the capabilities they require. They do about as well as the Arcane classes.
Primal is about channeling or unleashing the raw forces of nature...not simply elements, but life, death, rage, and instinct. The primal classes really do quite well indeed of exemplifying this aspect uniquely.
Ki is about controlling and utilizing the flow of energy through all things, including oneself. It's about form and focus, and we'll just have to wait and see how the classes perform...and in that regard, the same will be true of Psionics and Shadow...so we'll skip them for now.
Then there's Elemental. Channeling the fundamental power and structure of existence...that about sum it up right? Now...what action or methodology, or overall concept of usage, embodies the elemental power source?
The Elemental power source imo should be based on seeing, understanding, and directing the flow of the elemental chaos(honestly I see elemental classes being offended by that name for the plane). The elemental classes more than any other class see the world as simply being temporal in form and recognizing that it will not be the same tomorrow as it is today. Whereas the divine classes believe in concepts that shall change and the primal classes are in tune with eternal cycles that exist within the world, the elemental classes understand that nothing is ever the same as it ever was before.
The transmuter works as an elemental class if you simply look at the nature of its powers. The basic nature of a transmuter is that it changes matter from one thing to another. That is also the basic nature of the elemental chaos, as even the mighty primordials will eventually give way to provide raw materials for something that will come later on whether it be a primordial, a mountain, or a new city. As such, the transmuter isn't forcefully changing matter from one form to another, it is allowing the matter to follow the course of the elemental chaos that it has been forbidden from following due to the interference of the gods. The transmuter also just happens to push the object along the path that he wants it follow, however even then it is still following the way of the elemental chaos.
The Sha'ir would have a pet (I'm assuming some sort of elemental or elementally attuned creature)...and what else? If they get a pet (which will likely be just like the shaman's pet) and then powers like the other casting classes, then it seems rather bland to me. But then, perhaps I really am expecting too much.
Sha'ir was an abuser of the Gen in 2E (Well he used one) to bring spells to achieve ends. I see the Gen much closer to the animal companion, but thats not here nor there. they would come closer to resembling the wizard than anyone, but would still use unique flavor and powers to be substantially different, imo.
The Shunjea will be basically elemental clerics? So...fire for the "laser" build, earth for the sub-controller build...and air and water for the actual leader core of the class. I suppose it has possibilities. It'll be phenomenally easy to botch into a complete lack of genuine purpose though.
This is the one I have least ideas about, basically I would like to see it similar to the elemental clerics of Darksun. An easier way to to ensure there isn't a lack of genuine purpose is to have all the powers modified by the style of elemental cleric you are.
Not really seeing what makes the Stormbringer stand on its own. If it modifies terrain in a lasting fashion, those will be...by definition...zone powers most likely, which isn't what strikers do at all. But, maybe something can be made out of it.
Warlock, Sorcerer. Both of them have zone powers (Sorcerer now on an at will). Its not unprecedentated. They would be another striker/controller which is my only real concern (Too much water in the blood pool), but it Could work.
And the Allegiant is a walking zone 1 of slow that paralyzes people with crits? That just doesn't strike me as a good idea at all. At least, not at face value. Maybe that could be altered a bit...dunno really.
I just don't want to see another single mark defender, and marking on attacks or adjacent foes would step on existing classes too much. Slowing your enemies or making the terrain around you diffcult is Almost as sticky as marking however.
Overall though, I'm not really feeling the elements through these. What really makes these representative of elemental power, aside from things like a power that deals an elemental damage type, or an elemental pet? Again, maybe I'm asking for too much.
Actually it would be in the flavor, maybe with some unifying element (no pun meant) I mean really, what makes the Bard Arcane? Or the Sorcerer? The flavor does, not the powers.
Martial is obvious, being a power source strictly of physical prowess, enhanced by intellectual prowess in some cases, and all of its classes reflect this admirably.
Arcane is about studying and/or manipulating the magical forces that permeate the world, and most of its classes are good examples, with some being merely acceptable.
Warlocks don't study or manipulate magical forces, they make pacts to gain techniques to accomplish ends.
Divine is about either beseeching one's deity to take an active role in events, or relying on one's connection through faith that their deity will grant them the capabilities they require. They do about as well as the Arcane classes.
Primal is about channeling or unleashing the raw forces of nature...not simply elements, but life, death, rage, and instinct. The primal classes really do quite well indeed of exemplifying this aspect uniquely.
Paladins and Clerics (I believe) don't need deities to achieve their ends. Primal classes to me is the first that really had a unifying theme beyond the Martial's X[W], which isn't a theme.
Ki is about controlling and utilizing the flow of energy through all things, including oneself. It's about form and focus, and we'll just have to wait and see how the classes perform...and in that regard, the same will be true of Psionics and Shadow...so we'll skip them for now.
Then there's Elemental. Channeling the fundamental power and structure of existence...that about sum it up right? Now...what action or methodology, or overall concept of usage, embodies the elemental power source?
Well thats the thing, Elemental is what happens when a druid and a wizard have offspring. They control the fundemental building blocks of nature. Whether be directly (The Elemental Cleric/Shuneja class), indirectly (The Allegist), or through other things (Sha'ir) at the end of the day they take bits of elemental chaos in and around them to achieve an end.
Now...so as not to derail the topic...again I state Darksun in '10...null sweat, chummers.
I hope so. I do note that Collins (As in Andy) recently referred to 'dragons of Athas' so it seems even more likely we will get DS.
In the last issue of Dragon mentioned that we would start to get clues towards the new campaign setting starting this month. This thread is meant as a place where you can post any potential clues that you find, and these potential clues can be scrutinized by the other forum goers.
Holy Hijacked Thread, Batman!
Seriously, guys. I mean, glimpsing through all the OMG WHAT'S GONNA BE IN PHX stuff, I see like, three or four posts that even bother to mention anything regarding the topic of this thread, and even they consist of "Oh, yeah, and Darksun '10 W00T!"
In other news, based on the fact that this first reference popped up in an April Fool's article, it could very well be no more than a red herring. But we'll just have to keep an eye out over the course of the month.
I don't have any preference for which setting we get after Eberron, really. I mean, I grew up loving Dragonlance so the nostalgia-center in my brain says it wants to see it at some point, but I'm sure I'll enjoy whatever it is they put out. All the settings that are being put forth as possibilities sound interesting, though I've never played in any of them.
Has anyone thought that there is going to be only 3 PHBs?
Each campaign setting gets 3 books (Player's Guide, Campaign Guide, Adventure), so perhaps WotC is going with a trilogy setup.
Unlikely, I know, especially considering that added on to 2 power sources in the PHB2 and only added 1 new source, they could keep doing somehting similar until they decide to do 5th edition.
Just a thought....
Given that they have, from the beginning, that they were going to publish AT LEAST 8 power sources.
They're still planning to publish Ki, Shadow, Elemental, and Psionics.
So, at least 2 more PHBs.
And, frankly, I expect that WotC won't want to stop the income stream, so over the next two years they're going to EITHER come up with new powersources to follow the first 8, OR they are going to come up with new classes in the existing powersources and start re-hitting sources they've already done, like doing more Martial classes.
So, Eberron this year (with Kalashtar, although without psionics yet, I think it is a waste).
PHB3 early 2010 with psionics (I am theorizing! Argh.), elemental (for Dark Sun), and Ki).
Also, Eberron has strong elemental magic. There is elemental binding in magic items and such. (It's been awhile since I looked at the Artifier playtest class, so I don't remember what it does, but it is likely to change.
So, to reiterate, Dark Sun and the psionic and elemental power sources.
And, frankly, I expect that WotC won't want to stop the income stream, so over the next two years they're going to EITHER come up with new powersources to follow the first 8, OR they are going to come up with new classes in the existing powersources and start re-hitting sources they've already done, like doing more Martial classes.
Or we could be in for a 4.5e or 5e. It seems ominous to me that their initial schedule seems to be for 4 years, which is how long it took for 3.5 to come out.
Has anyone yet come up with any kind of idea for the Elemental classes...even one?
-Geomancer/Wu-jen = Elemental Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
I vote for Dark Sun. I could say it's been a long time coming. But other settings have been out longer. But with Psionics being something D&D keeps adding to, it only makes sense. Add the fact that Prism Pentad novels are re-releasing..... Can we say Dark Sun for 2010????
I know I have said this previously but the re-release of a series of books should not be taken as a sign that they are going to re-invent that setting. Wouldnt a setting that has new books still being released make a better candidate for a setting than a setting that is re-releasing a decade or more older books?
Just a different viewpoint
I know I have said this previously but the re-release of a series of books should not be taken as a sign that they are going to re-invent that setting. Wouldnt a setting that has new books still being released make a better candidate for a setting than a setting that is re-releasing a decade or more older books?
Not if that setting is Dragonlance. ;)
-Geomancer/Wu-jen = Elemental Controller
-Shugenja = Elemental Leader
Elementally flavored ki or arcane...to me anyway.
I don't even really consider Benders to be elementalists...but rather monk-like with spells that're strictly elemental in effect.
Again...perhaps I'm just too picky...but elemental just keeps striking me as a keyword effect, not a power source.
Back to topic...I'm really against ALL traditionally typed settings. Might be because I dislike LotR (the movies AND the books). Two things I can't stand...tradition, and rebellion...oh, and emo, emo's the big no-no.
Darksun might be pushing the emo envelope...after all Eberron sometimes skirts the edge, IMO. But, Eberron's still a very good setting, and Darksun sounds really good too. And niether is in direct opposition to "traditional" fantasy, nor are they traditional.
Whether or not the resurrection of novels is any indication is anyone's guess. I hope it's not...since that would make Dragonlance the most likely candidate, and I don't like it.
I'm not sure you understand what emo means. While I hate traditional fantasy, I fail to see what anything about traditional fantasy has to do with "emo," the short form of "emotion," typically used to describe a music oriented sub-culture obsessed with being depressed teenagers.
I'm fully aware of what emo means. And, in no way did I imply that traditional fantasy was emo.
Back to topic...I'm really against ALL traditionally typed settings. Might be because I dislike LotR (the movies AND the books). Two things I can't stand...tradition, and rebellion...oh, and emo, emo's the big no-no.
I was stating that I don't like traditional fantasy. Then I stated two things I dislike in general, not just about fantasty, and then remembered and added a third thing I dislike in general...without amending the number...which I'm still too lazy to do apparently, cuz I'm not going to.
It's not a big deal though, I can see where one might simply read straight through and lump it all together, and I don't blame anyone for it. But, fortunately for me that's not my problem.
Sorry for the thread derail...I don't have anything constructive to add except more Darksun support. So, I'm going to get away from those who continue to bring up non-thread related issues focused on me. There should be some more broad perspectives though, it does seem a little one-sided in favor of Darksun thusfar. Oh well, good luck all, enjoy yourselves.
It's entirely possible that they're just tired of updating it after seven releases, but I think it's also possible that they just have NEW projects in the works. I know if I was WotC, those are the folks I would probably go to to help with creation of a 4E Athas.
I don't know if it's a clue or not, but it looks like one to me. Those guys have been keeping DS alive and active all through 3rd...I find it hard to imagine they'd just abandon it completely.
Not if that setting is Dragonlance. ;)
That's just your opinion speaking, not an actual rebuttal to his point. There's a subtle yet distinct difference.
Dragonlance = please gag me with a spoon. I will definitely boycot all Dragonlance products if Draconlance is the third setting released. Even if the DPG had some nice feats/paragon paths I would not buy it until they released a higher quality setting, like, say, Dark Sun.
Your post = gag me with a steak knife. This is just plain silly. "I'm going to protest this setting by waiting a year before buying it!" Why? If you're going to buy it eventually, why not just get it? Because you want to try and 'punish' WOTC for opting for such a 'clearly inferior' setting by denying them ONE sale? I can hear them now "Oh noes, CyberDave won't buy our book! Whatever shall we do!?"
As for quality of the setting isn't determined by your preconceived notions about a given setting. The quality will be determined by the finished product WOTC puts out. There were big changes to FR. Maybe there'll be some big changes to DL that you actually might like! *gasp!*
oh, and emo, emo's the big no-no.
Ah, because no internet argument is complete without the word 'emo' being bandied about, largely inaccurately.
You might as well compare a setting to Hitler.
* and, I assume, the leader text that the OP highlighted. It's very much in his style.
That's just your opinion speaking, not an actual rebuttal to his point. There's a subtle yet distinct difference.
Oh, sorry, i didnt realize i was supposed to present a rubuttal. Ok, here goes: They shouldn't redo Dragonlance because its too much like Hitler! ;)
I mean seriously?! There's other power sources you know!
I don't care what setting they release, just as long as the class that comes with it is NOT ANOTHER ARCANE CLASS!
I mean seriously?! There's other power sources you know!
Well, that is something you probably won't have to worry about with Dragonlance. The classes that already exist are kinda pushing the envelope. Dragonlance is one of the places one might see a Martial Controller, since there are pockets of advanced technology. Between the Tinker Gnomes and Solamnic Bombardiers, as well as Draconian engineers, there is probably a great deal of room for a Grenadier or Engineer class.
Defilers would probably end up as a subset of an existing class, so if Dark Sun is the new setting, there isn't a high probability of the new class being an Arcane there either. I am not certain what all we could expect for the new class in Dark Sun since I am not totally familiar with it. Although, I would be pretty ****** if they made a Glatiator class and shoehorned it in as a Martial Controller.
I don't care what setting they release, just as long as the class that comes with it is NOT ANOTHER ARCANE CLASS!
I mean seriously?! There's other power sources you know!
Dark Sun would probably get a new Psionic class, or an Elemental source class.
Oooooor a Preserver/Defiler Arcane class. ;)
Oh, sorry, i didnt realize i was supposed to present a rubuttal. Ok, here goes: They shouldn't redo Dragonlance because its too much like Hitler! ;)
lulz
I don't care what setting they release, just as long as the class that comes with it is NOT ANOTHER ARCANE CLASS!
I mean seriously?! There's other power sources you know!
And I totally agree with this. As much of a hard-on as I have always had for arcane classes, I think it's getting a little ridiculous, hahaha. I'd like to see another martial or primal class, or perhaps, given PH3 will have come out by the time it releases, another class using one of its new power sources.
Your post = gag me with a steak knife. This is just plain silly. "I'm going to protest this setting by waiting a year before buying it!" Why? If you're going to buy it eventually, why not just get it? Because you want to try and 'punish' WOTC for opting for such a 'clearly inferior' setting by denying them ONE sale? I can hear them now "Oh noes, CyberDave won't buy our book! Whatever shall we do!?"
Please, do gag yourself with a steak knife...
Its not silly at all. I doubt I would buy the product at all. If the DPG happened to have really nice feats/paragon paths, I would still wait a year to buy it. Why? Because the only way I, as a consumer, can really make a meaningful statement to WotC is with my wallet. I refuse to purchase something that I hate with a passion, and I hate Dragonlance with a passion. The setting is pure barf. It is probably my least favorite setting of all time. As for whether its "ONE" sale or not, I have heard a lot of people mention how much they hate Dragonlance. I have a feeling that a lot more than one sale would be lost, should they choose to update that setting....
Please, do gag yourself with a steak knife...
Its not silly at all. I doubt I would buy the product at all. If the DPG happened to have really nice feats/paragon paths, I would still wait a year to buy it. Why? Because the only way I, as a consumer, can really make a meaningful statement to WotC is with my wallet. I refuse to purchase something that I hate with a passion, and I hate Dragonlance with a passion. The setting is pure barf. It is probably my least favorite setting of all time. As for whether its "ONE" sale or not, I have heard a lot of people mention how much they hate Dragonlance. I have a feeling that a lot more than one sale would be lost, should they choose to update that setting....
C'mon now...while I support your position...don't feed the little troll by playing into his hands with the steak knife bit. You're cool and I don't want to see an ORC get busy on you. That would just be messy and oogie and I don't like the mental image I just gave myself.
Anyway, as far as I can tell, it's likely to be either Darksun or Dragonlance, and if Dragonlance gets the same treatment FR did, I might not mind it. I'd still prefer Darksun though...defiling sounds like a blast.
