A spoiler, a week ahead of... another spoiler. Rockin'!
As far as summoning goes, I'm guessing it's like the beastmaster ranger in terms of how the summoned creature works mechanically in combat. However, because you can change what creature you summon (i.e., more versatile), I'd guess the creature summoned isn't quite as powerful as the animal companion.
Great news, hopefully it's implemented well, which shouldn't be too big of worry.
I'm glad they're bringing in a couple of more controllers (see Druid for the other). It seems that most of the people with whom I play RPGA mods don't like playing controllers, and at times is a very useful role to have at the table. Giving people more options might result in more characters filling that role.
As far as summoning goes, I'm guessing it's like the beastmaster ranger in terms of how the summoned creature works mechanically in combat. However, because you can change what creature you summon (i.e., more versatile), I'd guess the creature summoned isn't quite as powerful as the animal companion.
(Don't forget the Sorcerer! This the official total of confirmed Controllers in PH2 up to three: one for each of Arcane, Divine, and Primal! Nice to see that role getting its love!)
(Now we just have to hope that the Wizard doesn't get drowned in the flood....)
(Don't forget the Sorcerer! This the official total of confirmed Controllers in PH2 up to three: one for each of Arcane, Divine, and Primal! Nice to see that role getting its love!)
(Now we just have to hope that the Wizard doesn't get drowned in the flood....)
Now we just need a Martial Controller :P
Too bad it just is practically impossible unless they have a Grappler or Wrestler class as a melee controller that likes to grab and immobilze people with unarmed attacks.
Now we just need a Martial Controller :P
Too bad it just is practically impossible unless they have a Grappler or Wrestler class as a melee controller that likes to grab and immobilze people with unarmed attacks.
I could definitely see a martial controller who uses nets, whips, bolas, reach weapons, spiked chains and a lot of light thrown weapons. Net a small group of guys down, use the whip to restrain a single guy and unleash flurries of thrown weapons to damage and pin foes where they stand.
That's pretty intense, though. That would bring up questions of why the hell can't that guy, being so damn accurate, use a bow as well as a ranger or a dagger as well as a rogue.
I could definitely see a martial controller who uses nets, whips, bolas, reach weapons, spiked chains and a lot of light thrown weapons. Net a small group of guys down, use the whip to restrain a single guy and unleash flurries of thrown weapons to damage and pin foes where they stand.
That's pretty intense, though. That would bring up questions of why the hell can't that guy, being so damn accurate, use a bow as well as a ranger or a dagger as well as a rogue.
There lies the problem I guess. If you open up the possibility of a Martial Controller you open up a few things that seem to work great but don't make as much sense.
Perhaps we could have a class akin to a Gambit or Bullseye type character. Proficient in thrown weapons, throwing multiple at a time and stirking spots to hinder enemies by blnding them or slowing them. Maybe whips to immobilize or Pull.
Then we can have a Wrestler class that doesn't do much damage but can keep a foe in one place for a longer than usual time through grapples and holds which deal ongoing damage to enemies and keep them immobilized. Proficient only in unarmed attacks of course.
I could definitely see a martial controller who uses nets, whips, bolas, reach weapons, spiked chains and a lot of light thrown weapons. Net a small group of guys down, use the whip to restrain a single guy and unleash flurries of thrown weapons to damage and pin foes where they stand.
That's pretty intense, though. That would bring up questions of why the hell can't that guy, being so damn accurate, use a bow as well as a ranger or a dagger as well as a rogue.
It's because those weapons aren't nearly as awesome as his own selection.
Doing this makes a class that has it's own specialized style that other martial characters can't emulate(not having the training) and it would make sense that this controller couldn't use the same tactics as other martial characters, since his training didn't include anything like the others.
He could use wisdom, charisma and dexterity. Wisdom so he can read the battlefield with a keen eye and watch for opportunities, dexterity for tactical precision and hand eye coordination, and charisma to add a degree of trickery to his abilities.
Second, I don't see what the difficulty is with a martial controller. People have made many suggestions on this thread alone that seem reasonable. Are they realistic? Probably not, but what in 4e is? The designers consciously took the game in the direction of dramatics over realism (for the better, I'd say). How is a martial controller a problem? Small damage, but to a lot of targets at once (i.e., AoE). A spiked chain could easily explain that. Although terrain effects would be even harder to accept, we could have the martial controller minor as a defender, thus using battlefield control as a substitute. Is that unreasonable?
*** Although I have a degree in Physics, I find mathematics more difficult as I age. Asking me to come up with percentages is reckless at least and overtly dangerous at most.
Then we can have a Wrestler class that doesn't do much damage but can keep a foe in one place for a longer than usual time through grapples and holds which deal ongoing damage to enemies and keep them immobilized. Proficient only in unarmed attacks of course.
A guy who gets up in melee and locks down near by enemies...sounds exactly like a defender, no?
Yes, Wizards will be drowned out in the flood I'm afraid, unless they give them a few more implements in Arcane Power. I think in that's the way it's going to go, I can see Wizards getting Tomes (doubles as a spellbook maybe?), Rods (why not, implements ARE their thing), Gems and/or Stones (Okay I'm grasping at straws but still viable) and maybe even a Familiar that acts as a living implement, it would be a nice way to...uh ...forgive the pun, Implement them into 4E.
good point, Wizards may become awesome with arcane power...
Agreed. Arcane Power could be the Wizard's saving grace, its "update", if you will. It would be kind of a bummer if this means that lots of the Wizard material in the Player's Handbook becomes obsolete, but then, that's preferable to the entire class becoming obsolete.
Then again, our bookie (Cryonax :P) is still giving us 3:1 odds that the Wizard might keep his head above water, regardless. This would be best of all!
So, any speculation about the Invoker's summoning powers? Folks have mentioned angels, (and by extension, perhaps lesser celestial beings), which makes sense. How about "Normal" versus "Minions"? To rephrase, do you guys and gals think the Invoker's powers will more resemble the Ranger's Animal Companion (a "normal" creature) or the Bag of Tricks' Insta-Minion ability?
I can easily see the wizard getting a familiar build in AP.
A guy who gets up in melee and locks down near by enemies...sounds exactly like a defender, no?
I see your point. Nonetheless, I'd love to see a wrestler-type class made
Agreed. Arcane Power could be the Wizard's saving grace, its "update", if you will. It would be kind of a bummer if this means that lots of the Wizard material in the Player's Handbook becomes obsolete, but then, that's preferable to the entire class becoming obsolete.
Then again, our bookie (Cryonax :P) is still giving us 3:1 odds that the Wizard might keep his head above water, regardless. This would be best of all!
So, any speculation about the Invoker's summoning powers? Folks have mentioned angels, (and by extension, perhaps lesser celestial beings), which makes sense. How about "Normal" versus "Minions"? To rephrase, do you guys and gals think the Invoker's powers will more resemble the Ranger's Animal Companion (a "normal" creature) or the Bag of Tricks' Insta-Minion ability?
I think minions and regular companions both work. I can see an encounter power summoning a small group of celestial spirits that counterbalance undead hordes (perhaps the channel divinity of this class), or one big angel as a daily that lights up the sky with holy power, heals friendlies nearby and smites the wicked.
Maybe an at-will that brings in more single minions, or casts straight up holy light to scorch the evil from an enemy's body. This class could bring in some fun options to the Divine Power Source and separate it from being delegated as always the healer.
I always thought the people who popped up on the boards and touted summoning as a broken element of 3e we'd never see again were just wrong, and jumping to conclusions and that just because something didn't make it into the first three books didn't mean we weren't going to see it again.
I see your point. Nonetheless, I'd love to see a wrestler-type class made
Me too. I had a homebrew "Grappler" class in 3.5 that would grapple multiple opponents, grab people while moving around the battlefield and throw people around (this was pre-ToB, mind you). My group had some fun moments with one player that tried out the class.
I knew we'd be seeing summoners again! I just freakin' knew it!
I always thought the people who popped up on the boards and touted summoning as a broken element of 3e we'd never see again were just wrong, and jumping to conclusions and that just because something didn't make it into the first three books didn't mean we weren't going to see it again.
Ive seen a lot of those threads and i dont remember very many people claiming that summoning would never show up at all. It has always seemed to me that most people were saying that summoning would most certainly never appear in 4E as it functioned in previous editions.
Or how bout the Druid...Summon Nature's Ally? sure these will be daily spells, but why not implement them back in a more balanced form?
Now, who owes me money?
-- Cryonax, Elemental Bookie
So, any speculation about the Invoker's summoning powers? Folks have mentioned angels, (and by extension, perhaps lesser celestial beings), which makes sense. How about "Normal" versus "Minions"? To rephrase, do you guys and gals think the Invoker's powers will more resemble the Ranger's Animal Companion (a "normal" creature) or the Bag of Tricks' Insta-Minion ability?
Encounter powers will probably have short-lived effects or minions, but daily powers should have more *oomf* and have hp-ed creatures (but mebbe cost healing surges).
How about, so one player doesn't have an hour long turn, the creatures are controlled by the DM in a very basic fashion, like NPC allies. and you could spend a minor action to give them a basic idea of what to do or who to attack next and the DM does the rest with little number crunching. They would move as a unit and stick together as best as they could.
I know alot of DMs would loathe the idea, but it's a thought.
1) Get Ritutal Training free
2) Ability to use Channel Divinity feats
3) Get some kind of minor healing such as a Utility power that uses a healing surge like the paladin does
4) Summon generic beings that can be altered flavorly depending on the Invoker's deity
I kinda want to see some final fantasy summoning. Big guy swoops in out of #$%^ing nowhere and bombards your enemies with elemental damage and knocks them prone and then leaves to do his own thing.
That's just reflavoring a standard attack. There's no reason your wizard's Fireball can't take the image of, say, a dragon appearing out of a portal, blasting the foes, then immediately going back through the portal.
I don't know that's necessary. The beastmaster ranger handles a companion quite well with respect to player turn length. The flaming sphere does the same thing. In any case, if you have any confidence at all in how WotC will handle a particular rule, this should be a top candidate. They've gone to great lengths to clean up this particular issue.
Yeah, they sure have cleaned it up, encounters take up 1/2 of the time they used to it seems. I understand that with summoning 1 minion, they have a system laid out that already works but, I'm talking summoning a big group of monsters and having it still fit into the fast paced mold, ya dig?
Now just need to hope that the entities summoned by the Invoker are cool and powerful, something better than the celestial badgers of older versions of the game...
Yeah, they sure have cleaned it up, encounters take up 1/2 of the time they used to it seems. I understand that with summoning 1 minion, they have a system laid out that already works but, I'm talking summoning a big group of monsters and having it still fit into the fast paced mold, ya dig?
That really sounds like a tall order.
That really sounds like a tall order.
that it does, It's hard to see it getting done t all, but there has to be some way.
that it does, It's hard to see it getting done t all, but there has to be some way.
I really dont know if there is a way to do it while maintaining economy of actions. It seems that you could use your own actions to control minions and not get extra actions per player, but then you are then incredibly limited as to how many of your underlings can actually act in one round. You could also make it so multiple minions can act for the cost of one of your actions, but then we are back to one player having to resolve the actions of mulitple creatures. I suppose you could have multiple minions act as a larger mob, but that seems way too good for common use.
Ultimately, i see necromancers working like conjuration does so far; making very temporal undead instead of permanant followers. Instead of Grasping Shadows we have Grapsing Corpses with hands that rise out of the ground, limiting movement while the power is maintained. Instead of wall spells, we have Legion of Bones, a moving mass of bodies that damages nearby foes and can be moved with your actions. The one cleric spell that conjurs spectral knights summons wraiths. Its just reflavored, sustainable spells.
That's just reflavoring a standard attack. There's no reason your wizard's Fireball can't take the image of, say, a dragon appearing out of a portal, blasting the foes, then immediately going back through the portal.
How much of it isn't just reflavoring? Saying that, every single attack that someone makes can be a summoning if they give it the right description.
I didn't mean all in one action. Those summons take a lot of time. So say you cast the spell to summon and a portal opens. Next turn, the summon comes out and readies his attack. Next turn, all enemies on the field take a bunch of damage and the summon leaves. Very very flawed, but there are ways to make it so much better. And this way, you can keep attacking and taking other actions.
Though, I would still prefer summoning that keeps the summon around until the end of the encounter or until it takes too much damage.
I really dont know if there is a way to do it while maintaining economy of actions. It seems that you could use your own actions to control minions and not get extra actions per player, but then you are then incredibly limited as to how many of your underlings can actually act in one round. You could also make it so multiple minions can act for the cost of one of your actions, but then we are back to one player having to resolve the actions of mulitple creatures. I suppose you could have multiple minions act as a larger mob, but that seems way too good for common use.
Ultimately, i see necromancers working like conjuration does so far; making very temporal undead instead of permanant followers. Instead of Grasping Shadows we have Grapsing Corpses with hands that rise out of the ground, limiting movement while the power is maintained. Instead of wall spells, we have Legion of Bones, a moving mass of bodies that damages nearby foes and can be moved with your actions. The one cleric spell that conjurs spectral knights summons wraiths. Its just reflavored, sustainable spells.
Yes, I suppose that would do and is what we'll see most likely see.
I really dont know if there is a way to do it while maintaining economy of actions. It seems that you could use your own actions to control minions and not get extra actions per player, but then you are then incredibly limited as to how many of your underlings can actually act in one round. You could also make it so multiple minions can act for the cost of one of your actions, but then we are back to one player having to resolve the actions of mulitple creatures. I suppose you could have multiple minions act as a larger mob, but that seems way too good for common use.
Ultimately, i see necromancers working like conjuration does so far; making very temporal undead instead of permanant followers. Instead of Grasping Shadows we have Grapsing Corpses with hands that rise out of the ground, limiting movement while the power is maintained. Instead of wall spells, we have Legion of Bones, a moving mass of bodies that damages nearby foes and can be moved with your actions. The one cleric spell that conjurs spectral knights summons wraiths. Its just reflavored, sustainable spells.
Just have the option to use a minor action to command each minion. It wouldn't be much more powerful than using a sustain minor on a lot of the wizards spells, like the wall or bigby's hand spells.
How much of it isn't just reflavoring? Saying that, every single attack that someone makes can be a summoning if they give it the right description.
I didn't mean all in one action. Those summons take a lot of time. So say you cast the spell to summon and a portal opens. Next turn, the summon comes out and readies his attack. Next turn, all enemies on the field take a bunch of damage and the summon leaves. Very very flawed, but there are ways to make it so much better. And this way, you can keep attacking and taking other actions.
Though, I would still prefer summoning that keeps the summon around until the end of the encounter or until it takes too much damage.
The summons, in FF7, only take a lot of time because they cut the action for the cinematic. Nobody else gets to act in between the time the player casts the summon, and the summon blasts something/everything, and I'm not sure 'using 1 standard action now to functionally take two in the next round' is a good idea. Better to just attack and be done with it.
Agreed. Arcane Power could be the Wizard's saving grace, its "update", if you will. It would be kind of a bummer if this means that lots of the Wizard material in the Player's Handbook becomes obsolete, but then, that's preferable to the entire class becoming obsolete.
I think the Wizard's main shtick will be, as mentioned before, versatility. That 'extended spellbook' feat will probably become a lot more useful once Arcane Power comes out and more powers become available. Some of the previews for that book have mentioned that illusion and summoning spells may be added to the wizard (which may be based off certain bard and invoker spells). So, while other controllers may be more specialized, the wizard can do a wide variety of things.
Just have the option to use a minor action to command each minion. It wouldn't be much more powerful than using a sustain minor on a lot of the wizards spells, like the wall or bigby's hand spells.
How about an action trade system, trade a move action to get a standard action or move action for the minion, trade a minor to get just the move action.
The summons, in FF7, only take a lot of time because they cut the action for the cinematic. Nobody else gets to act in between the time the player casts the summon, and the summon blasts something/everything, and I'm not sure 'using 1 standard action now to functionally take two in the next round' is a good idea. Better to just attack and be done with it.
If a wizard uses bigby's icy grasp one round, does he not get to make an extra attack with it next turn and still use another spell? Have holding the portal open for the summon be a minor action each turn, otherwise the summon must hurry to jump back through the portal. And I didn't mean have the summons be exactly like final fantasy down to the smallest little detail.
Also, the summoner is final fantasy tactics used a single action to summon a being who made an attack or granted boons to every single creature on the field and I think that would be a good idea for the controller, given that the damage and effects aren't too powerful for affecting that many creatures at once.
If you think about Flaming Sphere it is a summoning spell so is Mordenkainen's sword. If you make the other summoning spells like that I think things will handle fine and not be broken.
If you renamed Flaming Sphere "Summon Small Fire Elemental" and you had to concentrate to control the elemental because they are capricious beings then no one could complain that they got rid of summoning!
Even the cleric has some summoning spells with Astral Defenders or Knights of Undying Valor. They last until end of encounter with no sustain and take up squares. That is already summoning in my book.
This is WAY off topic, but I have a question. It says that a wizard can have two daily powers and two utility powers of each level, but at later levels(5 and on) does he still have to prepare one of each level? or, since he can prepare two daily spells a day at fifth level and has two 5th lvl daily spells and two of first lvl, can he choose to prepare the two 5th level spells and forego the 1st levek spells? The spellbook descrition on pg 158 of ph does not say whether or not you can prepare two spells of the same level, only that they can't be the same. I'm sure you can prepare two 1st lvl spells instead, don't see why not. Does anyone have the answer to this question with a source for proof?
That is indeed way off topic... no, you have to prepare a 1st level and a 5th level daily. Wizards play by the same rules as everyone else, they just get a choice with certain spells.
Back on topic... I am excited! I've enjoyed the Divine power source so far, and wanted to try playing a controller... looks like I'll get at least a small opportunity next week!
Sorcerer, I'm stumped on - maybe single target damage/control?
That is indeed way off topic... no, you have to prepare a 1st level and a 5th level daily. Wizards play by the same rules as everyone else, they just get a choice with certain spells.
Back on topic... I am excited! I've enjoyed the Divine power source so far, and wanted to try playing a controller... looks like I'll get at least a small opportunity next week!
Where does it say every character has to do that? The only problem with the other characters is that they don't have the option at all. Nothing throughout the book says that a character must choose a 1st and a 5th, they just don't have more than one power of each level. If it does say this in the book, please give me the page. it's driving me nuts.
The only thing the book says that I have found, is that you cannot choose the same power twice. Nothing has brought up if you can prepare two different powers of the same level of the highest level if they have the option. Plus, preparing a lower level spell in place of a higher level spell is easily possible if you have the option as long as it isn't the same spell twice.
The wizard will probably still be the king of AoE damage (and, also, ORB OF IMPOSITION). The invoker will likely be a Controller/leader hybrid (like most divine classes). I imagine it's summoning powers to be like a cleric's - but a little more controller-ish.
Sorcerer, I'm stumped on - maybe single target damage/control?
There's also the Druid - from what I hear it's a shapeshifting melee controller with some area-of-effect abilities on the side. A single-target damage/control build can already be accomplished with the Warlock, though that's a striker rather than a controller.
Sorcerer is a bit harder to pin down, of course. In 3rd edition it was basically a wizard with a simpler magic system and different flavor. The 4th edition sorcerer, if they play up the 'wild magic' angle, may be the 'high-risk, high-reward' controller. For instance, their AoE spells might be even more damaging than the wizard's, but have a chance of doing something unexpected (or even detrimental) if the sorcerer rolls poorly.
may be the 'high-risk, high-reward' controller. For instance, their AoE spells might be even more damaging than the wizard's
remember there will be four builds... so its possible it could be many things.
Where does it say every character has to do that? The only problem with the other characters is that they don't have the option at all. Nothing throughout the book says that a character must choose a 1st and a 5th, they just don't have more than one power of each level. If it does say this in the book, please give me the page. it's driving me nuts.
The only thing the book says that I have found, is that you cannot choose the same power twice. Nothing has brought up if you can prepare two different powers of the same level of the highest level if they have the option. Plus, preparing a lower level spell in place of a higher level spell is easily possible if you have the option as long as it isn't the same spell twice.
Under the Spellbook heading for the Wizard class in chapter 4, Daily and Utility Spells section:
After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level.
A 5th-level character, for example, normally has access to a 1st-level daily, a 2nd-level utility, and a 5th-level daily. That is what they get "according to what you can cast per day for your level".
This question is specifically addressed in the FAQ for PHb, question 8.
Just have the option to use a minor action to command each minion. It wouldn't be much more powerful than using a sustain minor on a lot of the wizards spells, like the wall or bigby's hand spells.
Do you mean use a minor so that one minion gets a whole turn (move, standard and minor)? if so, we are back to the 3E model where one player gets 3 turns for everyone else's one. If you mean each minion works like a wizard conjuration then it is almost pointless to have multiple minions since you have to sacrifice a standard to make an attack roll with a conjuration or a move action to move one. All your minions will be doing a lot of standing around.
If a wizard uses bigby's icy grasp one round, does he not get to make an extra attack with it next turn and still use another spell? Have holding the portal open for the summon be a minor action each turn, otherwise the summon must hurry to jump back through the portal. And I didn't mean have the summons be exactly like final fantasy down to the smallest little detail.
He has to use a standard action to make another attack the following round and a move action to move the conjuration. Likewise, flaming sphere requires that you actually spend a standard to attack and a move to move the effect. Whenever you actually use a conjuration to make an attack roll, you need to spend a standard action, functionally preventing you from cast most other attack spells without using an action point.
At-will and Encounter powers, it seems to me, cannot really summon creatures that are all that powerful for very long at all. However, your daily powers, I feel, will probably be similar to the Wizard's Flaming Sphere. It will start out with a "BOOM!", and the summoned being will be sustained as a part of the power, and as part of that sustaining action, the summon can attack again.
I understand that with summoning 1 minion, they have a system laid out that already works but, I'm talking summoning a big group of monsters and having it still fit into the fast paced mold, ya dig?
This is the trick.
As I'm sure you see, this is similar to the AoE mechanic except that you can shape it without a feat, and it never harms allies. Attacking a single target with multiple minions? Workable. I don't see how this would take any more time than an AoE power. I'm sure there will need to be a balancing mechanic to make up for the improved targeting, but that's also workable.
EDIT: In other words, treat them as a single attack effect, but add an effect that seems to make sense.
*** I invented a new word!
Invokers offer gestures of supplication-they either exalt the name of the god who the summoned creature serves or defame the name of a rival god (much like how in Dr. Faustus Mephistopheles was drawn by Faustus blaspheming god). They ask for assistance and are thus able to summon more powerful creatures as powers. Wizard demand assistance and thus their powers summon multiple slightly weaker creatures-they've got have a bit more prep time (use a ritual) to demand that a powerful creature appear to serve them.
Just my interpretation of how an Invoker's summoning powers will work-what do you guys think?
The only possibility for multiple summonees*** that I see is as follows: My summoner summons X number of creatures (until the end of his turn), places them in X different squares within range, then commands them all to attack at once. My summoner can attack once per summoned creature, but the damage done by each is handled with the same damage roll. This falls under the same mechanic dictated by the game system while providing a different flavor.
As I'm sure you see, this is similar to the AoE mechanic except that you can shape it without a feat, and it never harms allies. Attacking a single target with multiple minions? Workable. I don't see how this would take any more time than an AoE power. I'm sure there will need to be a balancing mechanic to make up for the improved targeting, but that's also workable.
EDIT: In other words, treat them as a single attack effect, but add an effect that seems to make sense.
*** I invented a new word!
This works great for the one round when they all appear in different spots and attack different opponents but what happens when the summon is maintained? Do they all move as one move action (in the same direction, like Stinking Cloud)? Do they all attack with one action on the next round? If you make their damage low enough that they are a viable threat when attacking individually to different targets, wouldnt their combined damage potential be too high against a single target (you are both a great controller AND a great striker). Do minions just not move at all?
You may be onto something, but the idea definately needs refinement.
I've always seen the Invoker as more of an individual summoner myself-taking sort of a theurgic/hermetic magician perspective on the class. They chant the holy names of the gods and use them to bind powerful creatures from other realms into their service. I would imagine that when wizards reacquire their summoning powers, they'll have powers that summon a number of low-damage minions that may be commanded at the same time with a single standard action with rituals along the lines of the Planar Binding spells for individual, powerful creatures. Invokers, I'm guessing will be able to call those powerful creatures on the spot-which leads me to the fluff.
Invokers offer gestures of supplication-they either exalt the name of the god who the summoned creature serves or defame the name of a rival god (much like how in Dr. Faustus Mephistopheles was drawn by Faustus blaspheming god). They ask for assistance and are thus able to summon more powerful creatures as powers. Wizard demand assistance and thus their powers summon multiple slightly weaker creatures-they've got have a bit more prep time (use a ritual) to demand that a powerful creature appear to serve them.
Just my interpretation of how an Invoker's summoning powers will work-what do you guys think?
I can almost imagine the invoker being like a divine warlock. He makes "pacts" with various immortal beings and summons their physical aid by invoking their name and/or the power of the pact.
This works great for the one round when they all appear in different spots and attack different opponents but what happens when the summon is maintained? Do they all move as one move action (in the same direction, like Stinking Cloud)? Do they all attack with one action on the next round? If you make their damage low enough that they are a viable threat when attacking individually to different targets, wouldn't their combined damage potential be too high against a single target (you are both a great controller AND a great striker). Do minions just not move at all?
You may be onto something, but the idea definately needs refinement.
This is off the top of my head, but try these answers:
1) Maybe the fact that they can't move is a balancing effect with respect to their improved precision. They'd still be just as useful against a solo creature, blocking movement in some cases, and getting AOOs. Once they're useless, you'd stop sustaining the summons.
2) If they can move, maybe there's some sort of control over their movement. For example, they can (must?) move 1 square only, and it must be towards (away from?) the summoner. The point is that the decision on movement is out of the hands of the player, preventing him from getting caught up in a long, drawn out thought process on movement strategy.
Like you said, it requires refinement.
Do you mean use a minor so that one minion gets a whole turn (move, standard and minor)? if so, we are back to the 3E model where one player gets 3 turns for everyone else's one. If you mean each minion works like a wizard conjuration then it is almost pointless to have multiple minions since you have to sacrifice a standard to make an attack roll with a conjuration or a move action to move one. All your minions will be doing a lot of standing around.
I meant that you trade a minor action for any one action for summon. The summon could be powered down for balance.
He has to use a standard action to make another attack the following round and a move action to move the conjuration. Likewise, flaming sphere requires that you actually spend a standard to attack and a move to move the effect. Whenever you actually use a conjuration to make an attack roll, you need to spend a standard action, functionally preventing you from cast most other attack spells without using an action point.
Then consider mordenkainin's sword or whatever it's name is. It would take a minor action every round to attack with it and a move action to move and you can still take a standard action. This could be used for a summon that takes longer to come out, sacrificing a move and minor ation each round to hold open a portal(until the third round) while still able to attack from a distance each round. On the third turn, your sacrificed actions are payed back with the summons power.
1) Maybe the fact that they can't move is a balancing effect with respect to their improved precision. They'd still be just as useful against a solo creature, blocking movement in some cases, and getting AOOs. Once they're useless, you'd stop sustaining the summons.
2) If they can move, maybe there's some sort of control over their movement. For example, they can (must?) move 1 square only, and it must be towards (away from?) the summoner. The point is that the decision on movement is out of the hands of the player, preventing him from getting caught up in a long, drawn out thought process on movement strategy.
I think the second option is a little closer to what people would like to see (having all your minions stand around for most powers wouldnt go over too well). I wonder if you couldnt just make a mob of minions function like a zone, and have them all move in unison.
Then consider mordenkainin's sword or whatever it's name is. It would take a minor action every round to attack with it and a move action to move and you can still take a standard action. This could be used for a summon that takes longer to come out, sacrificing a move and minor ation each round to hold open a portal(until the third round) while still able to attack from a distance each round. On the third turn, your sacrificed actions are payed back with the summons power.
The main issue im struggling with is how to control a bunch of minions, not how to make summons that take multiple rounds to come out (which im not convinced is a good or necessary idea). Sure you could have one summon going while you spent multiple round getting another one to go off, im just not sure why you want to do this.
IMO, if you want to be a true "Minion Master," be a DM. But controling one "cohort" at a time is fine by me. (Trying to manage multiple summons with stressed resources is fine too.)
From what I could see with the Druid and Wizard, controllers have mostly two things in common:
-Weird mechanics that bends the rules to their style(cantrips, extra at-will)
-Versatility that also bends the rules for their style(spellbook, melee/caster capacity)
I expect no less from this Invoker dude.
I'm also one of the ones who thinks a single Divine Cohort would be his thing.
This "celestial companion" could be summoned or unsummoned and different kinds of cohorts could be brought up´, each with a different and meaningful power/ability. To an extent that the Invoker also have 3 at-wills.
Two being their own.
One being his cohort's.
The flexibility comes when he changes cohort, effectively granting another power, that works for different purposes, maybe he can only call for a different cohort during a short rest, to limit it a bit.
Ah, obviously, this guy will have their own version of Channel Divinity, in which one of the two options will include something to buff your companion, and possibly the other one could be an ability that forces you to unsummon your companion making a "big boom" in the process... yeah, that'd be cool.
Anyways, so far it seems quite interesting a concept to play with.