but I wish they were shadow minotaurs and shadow gith.
I wonder if those Divine and Primal classes are the ex-Ki classes?
I just spent the last few minutes trying to come up with what they could possibly do for more primal classes.... I came up with guy who burrows, guy who plants things, and hippie. ....... and professional landscaper.
Ancestral Worshipper, Witch, Totemist (is really wardenlike i know), Plant-guy,
McNancy: I wonder if those Divine and Primal classes are the ex-Ki classes?
Good guess. Wu Jen could easily be Primal. The Dao elements (Earth, Metal, Water, Fire, and especially Wood) work well as Primal (Druid-like) flavor.
The Elemental source is still in the works, but I cant really tell the difference between Primal and Elemental. I suspect the D&D Elemental source will cover the official elements that comprise the Elemental Chaos: Air and Lightning - as well as Fire, Earth, and Water. (Compare the Genasi.) But notice, the Druid is Primal yet also masters storm effects. In other words, the Primal source enjoys mastery over the elements of Air and Lightning, as well, thus already covers all of the elements.
In any case, Wu Jen may well be a formerly-Ki class that is better understood as Primal.
maybe the divine they are adding will be more shadowy.....
but then again I could just be wrong
For Divine, I would like to see them going beyond just ordinary God-worship. Lets see weird cults who worship a living being, worship of strange beings (Aberrations, a God-Machine, etc.).
As for Psionics well I am still hoping for my pseudoscience (hopefully will see some in these monthly previews. Also hopefully see the Elan too).
I wonder if those Divine and Primal classes are the ex-Ki classes?
Certainly a workable hypothesis, though I hope this doesn't mean that we're about to see PH3 is going to look too much like Oriental Adventures minus the Orient.
I'm also thinking ... Soulknife, for me, is very Striker ... so maybe we'll be seeing 5 Psi classes?
All speculation at this point.
For Divine, I would like to see them going beyond just ordinary God-worship. Lets see weird cults who worship a living being, worship of strange beings (Aberrations, a God-Machine, etc.).
Isn't that more of a Fluff thing than it is important for mechanics ?
Isn't that more of a Fluff thing than it is important for mechanics ?
Mainly but it can influence mechanics, like Aberrations could mean mutations and such. Cults could mean sacrifice things, so draining HP, etc.
Where has it been confirmed that the PH3 will be psionic, divine and primal classes?
On the cover of the book...
I hope, Divine introduces transcendental (non-polytheistic) flavor, that ignores the gods, and focuses on the healing light (radiant energy), the idealism of the Astral Sea, and the philosophy of positivity.
Agreed, twice over.
Sigil Beguiler: As for Psionics well I am still hoping for my pseudoscience.
I love Psionic! But personally, I dont really want Pseudoscience or New Age in the D&D setting.
Nevertheless, for players who like the technobabble names, I could probably live with an appendix at the back of the PH3 that gave 'scientific names' for Psi powers. For example,
[INDENT]Antimagic field (Catapsi)[/INDENT]
The 'common name' for a Psionic power would be something like, 'Antimagic Field', but the scientific name would be something like Catapsi. In game, these alternate scientific names could represent some scholastic tradition of a certain community of Psi scholars.
Similarly, I strongly dont want 'crystal-mania' to define Psi flavor. But it is ok to have the occasional Psionic crystal magic item, for the players who like this flavor.
Regarding the Elan race ... they rock!
I am hoping a mix, some classes for those who don't like Pseudoscience some for those who do. Also, Hell Yes! The Elan rock, they better be in PHB3 or heads will roll. But... Heading off-topic.
I am thinking though, with confirmation of the Giths and Primal in PHB3. That the previews we got so far have excluded stuff, I can't see the Monk or Wilden article not mentioning Gith and new Primal classes.
I had said it will be 4 new / 2 primal / 2 other since PHB2 came out. We all assumed the new would be Ki but Ki is dead and we now know its Psionic.
If this keeps up we'll have over 40 classes when Elemental Power hits.
And I can't seem to figure out if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
Here are three guesses though:
1. We'll see a primal class called, "geomancer."
2. The necromancer got re-fluffed as a divine class.
3. There will be a divine defender called, "the crusader." It will be a replacement for the paladin just like the Bo9S crusader was a replacement for the 3.5e paladin.
This is starting to hurt my head; this PH may not be too different from the PH2, 4 form new PS and 4 from old PS, which may be the format for PHs, but that would mean only one source per year and that 4E is going to have a metric butt-ton of races and classes.
If this keeps up we'll have over 40 classes when Elemental Power hits.
And I can't seem to figure out if thats a good thing or a bad thing.
Considering that every class so far has made me go, "Damn, that's cool, I wanna play one!!" I consider it good :D
Also, I've never paid much attention to the Gith, but it looks like I'm gonna start! :D
Oppositely, I hope there is a Shadow power source. Even a separate 'Necromancy' skill to cover it. I hope Shadow covers all 'deathly' flavor, including undead, necromancy, necrotic damage, and the plane of Shadowfell. I also hope it covers the devils in the Nine Hells (in the Astral Sea), the demons in the Abyss (in the Elemental Chaos), and similar darkside concepts.
More importantly, I hope Arcane and Divine deemphasize the darkside concepts, for better streamlining.
The Nature skill covers the Primal power source. Will the Psi power source have its own skill too?
Ancestral Worshipper, Witch, Totemist (is really wardenlike i know), Plant-guy,
yeah those are names, but for powers really? Ancestral worshipper and totemist sounds like shaman, and witch just reminds me of a feylock, you want to differentiate between each class so they don't end up as a mesh of similar concepts
Necromancer as Divine, though? Unlikely; Necromancy has, in D&D, always been about forcing the spirits and bones of the dead to obey a mortal's bidding, tapping into lore that the Gods jealously guard and performing actions that all except the most evil or amoral consider depraved. A traditional Necromancer is an enemy of the gods; at best, they earn the patronage of Demons... which, in 4e, are even more opposed to the Gods (being Elementals of Corruption and Dissolution) than they were in previous editions. Considering that Necromancy is iconic to what is now called the Shadow source, my money is still on it being a Shadow Controller.
But, anyway, why do Divine and Primal need some more classes so soon after the PHB2 was released? They've both got all 4 roles filled as is; surely it would have been better to get the Psionic, Shadow and Elemental classes out now before adding new options to older sources?
I'm also really annoyed that they decided to put in more primal and divine classes. Seriously? Do we need another variation of paladin or cleric? And primal was rather underwhelming for me so I don't know why they decided to stuff in another concept into an already crowded power source.
We don't need more primal or divine classes! GIMME SOME OF THAT ELEMENTAL! Honestly!
I don't really like Divine classes except the Invoker. like the idea of divine classes that don't pray to dieties and use their own power.
I'm kinda worried. I already feel like Warden and Shaman were a bit of a stretch. I hope they have some really killer concepts.
This! They weren't special except mechanically. There really isn't sufficient fluff to make these guys different.
I'm at least glad they didn't give "Shadow" or "Elemental" undue attention.
I'm looking forward to these a lot. They need undo attention.
I'd like to see new Martial classes not for the lack of a controller but so that I can see what crazy ideas they come up with.
By the way, I don't really like Minotaurs. They should have put in an Aberrant race, like Mind Flayers.
now what I could see is a shadow leader called the Animator that uses the power of shadow to animate inanimate objects, which would make it possible for people to get a necromancer without the whole alignment problem. with the Animator it could also be possible to animate anything, such as creepy dolls or statues
Black Knight: Do we need another variation of paladin or cleric?
Well, yes, exactly. We need Divine classes that arent another variation of Paladin or Cleric. A different kind of flavor for Divine. Perhaps Buddhism-like flavor?
I am thinking though, with confirmation of the Giths and Primal in PHB3. That the previews we got so far have excluded stuff, I can't see the Monk or Wilden article not mentioning Gith and new Primal classes.
The Gith are mentioned in the Monk article, sorta. That's a Gith monk in the first picture behind the Earth Genasi. The second I saw it I felt it was confirmation they'd be in.
The Minotaur on the cover irritates me though. First the Warforged, now the Minotaur, and as bwcmd1 the Shadar-kai will probably be next. Seriously, what's the point of new race articles in Dragon if they're just going to show up in a PHB or PG shortly afterwards? The only consolation I take from this is that the Dragon Minotaur is way too melee oriented, when all races are supposed to be designed to function as casters or melee, so hopefully PH3 will fix that.
That is one sweet picture of a Gith though. I just hope both are in, and not just the 'Zerai.
The Gith are mentioned in the Monk article, sorta. That's a Gith monk in the first picture behind the Earth Genasi. The second I saw it I felt it was confirmation they'd be in.
Yeah but since it isn't mentioned in the Race section for Monk I feel like they intentionally excluded its mention.
That is one sweet picture of a Gith though. I just hope both are in, and not just the 'Zerai.
really? it looks more like a 'yanki to me.
I am actually really disappointed. I have already been waiting for the Shadow Power Source for a while and now it's going to be even longer. So much for a Necromancer.
Yeah, I don't believe we'll ever see a Necromancer. It's likely we see maybe more articles or a supplement that'll lend darkness-themed powers to existing classes, but there's no need to make Necromancer separate from Wizard.
Personally, I cant wait to see the finished Artificer class, and would purchase the Eberron book even just for this class.
Jack: There's no need to make Necromancer separate from Wizard.
A problem is, the flavor of Necromancy really belongs to both the Arcane and the Divine power sources. The new Shadow power source solves the conflict by splitting Necromancy away from both of them. Now Clerics or Wizards who want to dabble with undead can take Shadow multiclasses or paragon paths.
really? it looks more like a 'yanki to me.
'Zerai are more connected to monks than 'Yanki are, and that's definitely a monk. If it were a 'Yanki she'd probably look more like a knight or wizard type.
If WotC is smart, theyl create the Ravenloft setting, and make the Necromancer class exclusive for it, like the Swordmage is for FR, and the Artificer is for Eberron.
Personally, I cant wait to see the finished Artificer class, and would purchase the Eberron book even just for this class.
The Swordmage and Artificer aren't exclusive - they're usable in any setting. They're just more connected to FR/Eberron. Plus, WotC's pretty much said there will be no Ravenloft stand-alone setting, just the Dragon/Dungeon articles and in books like Manual of the Planes.
Necromancer will be in the Shadow PHb, almost guaranteed.
Yeah, I don't believe we'll ever see a Necromancer. It's likely we see maybe more articles or a supplement that'll lend darkness-themed powers to existing classes, but there's no need to make Necromancer separate from Wizard.
I actually think they do. Just like the Illusionist Wizard is a lightweight and feels like an afterthought. I would rather they start from the the beginning and rethink the whole class with class features and feats and not tack on something existing. I also think of the Necromancer as more of a leader and not a controller.
For primal, my guess is there will be a ranged weapon class but not sure what it would be.
Celtic: The Swordmage and Artificer aren't exclusive - they're usable in any setting.
I just meant, these classes are published exclusively in those setting guides, to help sell them, and not in the PHs.
Do you think that since the monk is the psionic striker, the soul knife will move over to divine? Could be changed to a lithe warrior wielding a shard of the astral sea as his weapon (probably a dex build for agile fighters, and a con build or something for more traditional high armored divine). I think this would be cool, as it could be flavored as a wielder of divine power that has no particular connection to the gods. Plus, I like the idea of wielding fragments of the astral sea and wished they would have used something like this for invoker flavor.
For primal, my guess is there will be a ranged weapon class but not sure what it would be.
If the Soul Knife appears (which I hope it does), it'll be a Psionic Striker or Defender. I can't see any reason for it to be Divine.
I love Psionic! But personally, I dont really want Pseudoscience or New Age in the D&D setting.
Nevertheless, for players who like the technobabble names, I could probably live with an appendix at the back of the PH3 that gave 'scientific names' for Psi powers. For example,
[INDENT]Antimagic field (Catapsi)[/INDENT]
This is funny to me. Somehow modern English names are more suitable to a D&D setting than "technobabble" names that are constructed from greek and latin root words?
/off topic
Well, consider me shocked. I do not know what to expect out of more primal and divine classes. I would love to see a Priest and a Crusader class, to give me a new Cleric and Paladin that do not have split attack stats. But that's just me.
The Minotaur on the cover irritates me though. First the Warforged, now the Minotaur, and as bwcmd1 the Shadar-kai will probably be next. Seriously, what's the point of new race articles in Dragon if they're just going to show up in a PHB or PG shortly afterwards? The only consolation I take from this is that the Dragon Minotaur is way too melee oriented, when all races are supposed to be designed to function as casters or melee, so hopefully PH3 will fix that.
Whose to say this Minotaur will be the same Minotaur from the MM or the Mags? There's no rule that says WotC can't have several interpretations of the same race running around. Granted it would get confusing if there's more than a handful or races that do this... Of course with a race like the Minotaurs, there are such wildly different views on the race it self, that I think it deserves multiple interpretations (eg. Some like Taurens, others a greek Minotaur, sill others like Minotaurs from Dragonlance).
I am OUTRAGED. Almost.
We don't need more primal or divine classes! GIMME SOME OF THAT ELEMENTAL! Honestly!
With Ki going by the way side, it was expected that WotC would pull back on the new power sources to one a year. By doing this, WotC has an additional 3 years of content (counting the PHB 3) to go before they run out of previously stated power sources. Of course WotC can't very well release a PHB that only has 1 new power source, so it is to be expected that older sources would be re-used.
Out of the 4 sources we have thus far, Arcane is the only one that feels bloated but even then it only has 6 classes. Divine and Primal have the most room to grow... For example perhaps the new Divine class will be a mix of the Favored Soul, the Binder and the Sovereign Speaker. The flavor would be a chosen individual who can channel aspects of multiple gods to defeat his enemies. During one combat he channels Kord and beats his enemies down with a sword, then next he channels Bahamut and defends his allies with mystical breath weapons... As for Primal they could always make a Blighter-like class that absorbs the life energies from around him and uses that to fuel his attacks...
Well, consider me shocked. I do not know what to expect out of more primal and divine classes. I would love to see a Priest and a Crusader class, to give me a new Cleric and Paladin that do not have split attack stats. But that's just me.
I'd rather they just rewrite the paladin and cleric class features in an errata section in divine power or somehow patch the classes with tons of love in that book. I have a suspicion you are right about the priest and crusader classes though.
Well, consider me shocked. I do not know what to expect out of more primal and divine classes. I would love to see a Priest and a Crusader class, to give me a new Cleric and Paladin that do not have split attack stats. But that's just me.
I see this as a strong possibility. WotC has shown this edition that they like to patch the book-published things by adding more options instead of retooling the existing mechanics (attack and defense feats, new "replacement" orb wizard, etc...). I wouldn't be surprised if we got a one attack stat Favored Soul (cleric) and a one attack stat Crusader (paladin).
My only concern is the minotaur on the cover. I thought we had been told that everything in the magazines was "core", and wouldn't be reprinted except for the yearly anthologies (which may or may not happen now). But first we get Warforged (and granted, I appreciate the thought, putting the 'forged out there for the Eberron junkies to play with until the setting comes out, along with the Artificer playtest), now it looks like minotaur is getting the PH treatment, and I'm betting that when Shadow gets released we'll see the shadar-kai again. With all the good monster races out there (orc, goblinoids, etc), don't tell me the gnoll is going to be the only one coming out in Dragon ('cause a year into it, it's the only one that doesn't look like a candidate for reprinting elsewhere).
Sigh....
It was mentioned before, over and over again. The only place in the printed books for new Races and Classes is in the Player Guides (Settings and PHB's). The Yearly Anthologies will not include any of the Races/Classes that had been in the Online service.
Also expect the Races to change a bit, being slightly different than what had been in Dragon.
Hopefully, the Gnoll will stay within the pages of the MM, just as the Goblin, Hobgoblin, Orc, Ogre, etc...
'Zerai are more connected to monks than 'Yanki are, and that's definitely a monk. If it were a 'Yanki she'd probably look more like a knight or wizard type.
yeah but the zerai have more of a greenish tint to their skin
I am disappointed.
So now we are left to guess as to which Ki loose ends are being switched to Divine and Primal. I believe the Ninja will be saved for PHB4 for the Shadow power source, perhaps having the Shadow Dancer's abilities folded in along with powers of their own.
I think the Monk just became the 4th edition Physic Warrior in the Psi power source, but with Ki weapons and have two weapon fighting powers like the Ranger. Forget all that passive bilge from the previous edition, the Monk will be outsiders no more.
My real question is why was there such a big deal to get the 4 classes for the Divine and Arcane classes if this was gonna happen anyway?
My real question is why was there such a big deal to get the 4 classes for the Divine and Arcane classes if this was gonna happen anyway?
They needed at least 4 classes to fill out the Power books.
Yeah, I don't believe we'll ever see a Necromancer. It's likely we see maybe more articles or a supplement that'll lend darkness-themed powers to existing classes, but there's no need to make Necromancer separate from Wizard.
The Necromancer and the Illusionist were talked about in various places, and are "official" in that they was, at some point, considered full classes forthcoming in the future, both in the Shadow Power Source.
Myself, I am looking forward to the return of a full fledged Illusionist, instead of the "Specialist" split in the previous edition.
originally posted by bwcmd1
My only concern is the minotaur on the cover. I thought we had been told that everything in the magazines was "core", and wouldn't be reprinted except for the yearly anthologies (which may or may not happen now). But first we get Warforged (and granted, I appreciate the thought, putting the 'forged out there for the Eberron junkies to play with until the setting comes out, along with the Artificer playtest), now it looks like minotaur is getting the PH treatment, and I'm betting that when Shadow gets released we'll see the shadar-kai again. With all the good monster races out there (orc, goblinoids, etc), don't tell me the gnoll is going to be the only one coming out in Dragon ('cause a year into it, it's the only one that doesn't look like a candidate for reprinting elsewhere).
Keep in mind though, not everyone subscribes to DDI. It might be included because of this fact.
Hopefully Wizards will at least release some new feats and such to compensate those who already have the DDI and the artice.
I am actually really disappointed. I have already been waiting for the Shadow Power Source for a while and now it's going to be even longer. So much for a Necromancer.
Unless necromancer is being rolled into divine.. Asmodeus is a god after all. Maybe there's a class that worship Orcus?
Though, I'm happy to see the Gith in the PHB3, Minotaur is a surprise though, but a welcome one.
It seems, we know 3 of the races for PHB3. Minotaur, Githzerai, and Wilden. One class is confirmed, the monk.
I'd rather they just rewrite the paladin and cleric class features in an errata section in divine power or somehow patch the classes with tons of love in that book. I have a suspicion you are right about the priest and crusader classes though.
If that didn't happen for the Star Pact in Arcane Power, it won't happen for the Cleric or Paladin either.
I'm not really sure wether I should be laughing or crying. Laughing out of schadenfreude, because I knew stuff like this would happen when Wizards announced one PHB per year. Luckily, I didn't invest anything in 4e so I can give you a heartfelt "Ha, Ha!".
But it's also very sad. You poor suckers will buy this piece of extortionist crap anyway, because it's got psionics in it. And that's new and shiny so you gotta own it, right?
On second thought, I'll go with laughing.
I'm going to go make a thread asking for kobolds in phb3 now O_o excuse me
I'll be so ticked if the other 2 races (assuming still 5?) are like... the other gith and say shadar kai or gnolls or something.
Other possibilities: Soul blade, Archivist, Ardent, and Lurk
Since Psionic will be the featured power source and will probably have 4 or so classes, that means we will more than likely get to see the Empath!!!!!!! I am VERY happy about that!
LOL...except that I just remembered PH3 is like 10 months away still! 
so I think we'll see the shuegenja be rightly placed in divine.
Other possibilities: Soul blade, Archivist, Ardent, and Lurk
We had a thread forever-ago debating whether the Shugenja would be "right" in Primal or in Divine (or in Elemental). There wasn't a consensus, but a lot of people were leaning one way at that time......I just can't remember which way and I can't look it up right now. :P
On the Soulknife as Divine, I don't see any reason off-hand it "absolutely couldn't" move away from Psionic. I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter at this point.
On the Soulknife as Divine, I don't see any reason off-hand it "absolutely couldn't" move away from Psionic. I don't really have a personal opinion on the matter at this point.
Yeah, there's nothing inherently psionic about the Soulknife, so it could be worked into almost any power source. "Bob the Soulknife draws on the power of disco* to form a blade composed of pure disco energy, blab blah whatever"
At this point, I'm guessing we'll see at least one or two reformed Ki classes besides the monk. Since they were apparently going forward with Ki until recently, they had to have had at least a few classes they were working on to debut alongside the monk. Shujenja and Wu-Jen are likely suspects, but I have no idea what else might be included.
*insert preferred power-source here.
I am unhappy that my Shadowcaster character can't get written out yet... she's not a striker, she's a controller, but the closest she can get to what she wants to be is the Darklock, which is off. I thought about Summoner Wizard, and that's what I'm having her be currently, but she really is in need of Shadow.
I'm excited for more Primal and Divine characters. While I originally thought that the Shugenja and the Wu Jen would be the yet-unknown Elemental, I have little doubt they've been reworked as Divine and/or Primal classes. Shugenja could go either way, so I'm interested and keeping my eyes open. Now I'm painfully desperate for July. Not to mention that I'll be in Japan that month, but that's not quite related (save for the physical books arriving there earlier...)
It was mentioned before, over and over again. The only place in the printed books for new Races and Classes is in the Player Guides (Settings and PHB's). The Yearly Anthologies will not include any of the Races/Classes that had been in the Online service.
Where was this mentioned?
That decision really doesn't make much sense to me, except as a way to pad out the books. They've said that DDi articles now undergo the same editorial process and quality controls as any of the core material, and are core as far as WOTC is concerned. So, why is there a need to reprint races and classes from DDi (save the playtests and previews, of course) in other source books?
I knew stuff like this would happen when Wizards announced one PHB per year
You knew they would release another phb when they announced one phb per year. Congratulations! You have the ability to read what is plainly stated!
If that didn't happen for the Star Pact in Arcane Power, it won't happen for the Cleric or Paladin either.
Easy fix- replace "Int" in star pact powers with either Con or Charisma, whichever one the power doesn't already use.
Poof, star pact powers become useful, while other pacts lose their kickers.
Yeah, there's nothing inherently psionic about the Soulknife, so it could be worked into almost any power source. "Bob the Soulknife draws on the power of disco* to form a blade composed of pure disco energy, blab blah whatever"
At this point, I'm guessing we'll see at least one or two reformed Ki classes besides the monk. Since they were apparently going forward with Ki until recently, they had to have had at least a few classes they were working on to debut alongside the monk. Shujenja and Wu-Jen are likely suspects, but I have no idea what else might be included.
*insert preferred power-source here.
You assume that they just recently gave up on KI. Its possible that this was done about year ago. We are just finding out about it now.
Well as far as the minotaur I hope they use something closer to the improved version some one put up here, it was a whole lot better without being at all unbalanced.
Any chance you're referring to me and the Minotaur in my sig?
But seriously, I really hope that they fix their Minotaur before they print it and that it's not the same as it was in Dragon, because the one in Dragon is terrible. Seeing a Minotaur on the cover does give me hope, though, that they've put some more thought into them since then. *crosses fingers*
Any chance you're referring to me and the Minotaur in my sig?
But seriously, I really hope that they fix their Minotaur before they print it and that it's not the same as it was in Dragon, because the one in Dragon is terrible. Seeing a Minotaur on the cover does give me hope, though, that they've put some more thought into them since then. *crosses fingers*
I know several people that love the Minotaur. Myself included. I never thought it was terrible.
Races: Both Gith, Minotaurs, Wilden, and what else?
Duergar ?
I know several people that love the Minotaur. Myself included. I never thought it was terrible.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Minotaurs. It's just the mechanics that were badly done. The official 4E Minotaur PC racial stat block violates quite a bit of the 4E PC race design philosophy that every race should be able to perform competently as a member of any class. Check the fix in my sig if you need more info. ;)
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Minotaurs. It's just the mechanics that were badly done. The official 4E Minotaur PC racial stat block violates quite a bit of the 4E PC race design philosophy that every race should be able to perform competently as a member of any class. Check the fix in my sig if you need more info. ;)
I have seen your writeup for the Minotaur. You did good work but I dont see the need for it to be viable for every class that could be played.
I dont see the need for it to be viable for every class that could be played.
Be that as it may, every other playable race out there is viable for every class that could be played, and so the Minotaur's current design is inconsistent.
I really don't see what classes we can still see in the Primal and Divine power sources. First of all, any new class would necessarily be a double in any role.
Another Primal Striker? A more scout-like one? But that one would be too similar to a ranger. As much as I think about it, there is really no fantasy archetype in that section that we still need. Every divine and primal class there is pretty much defines their box in the power source / role grid.
Dear Devs, here are classes that I want (for the 4 non-Psi):
- PIRATE
- NECROMANCER
- ILLUSIONIST
- NINJA / ASSASSIN
I don't care which roles or power sources you shove them in, just deliver please.
As for races, I agree with most people here: Minotaur good, plant-guys good (just another name please), both giths excellent, and please give us Shadar-Kai, Hobgoblins, Kobolds and Duergar.
I have seen your writeup for the Minotaur. You did good work but I dont see the need for it to be viable for every class that could be played.
Look through the PHB and take a glance at all the races' racial powers. Notice how all of them are useful to pretty much any chosen class? Now look at the minotaur's powers. They are only useful to melee classes and are next to worthless for non-melee builds. The design of the minotaur sticks out like a huge sore thumb next to all the other races.
So, why is there a need to reprint races and classes from DDi (save the playtests and previews, of course) in other source books?
Because some of us can save up for one book every few months, and don't have regular internet access. I.E. Wizards knows that DDi is cool, but that some people just don't give a big one about anything with it but the new races (and the options that come with new races), and possibly the Character Builder.
Look through the PHB and take a glance at all the races' racial powers. Notice how all of them are useful to pretty much any chosen class? Now look at the minotaur's powers. They are only useful to melee classes and are next to worthless for non-melee builds. The design of the minotaur sticks out like a huge sore thumb next to all the other races.
Both of the Monster Races are similar in this fashion.
But it does not mean that they have to be useful to every class. They are giving you Monsters you are capable of playing as PC's. They are not necessarily going to be playable for every class.
That being said don't expect them to change all that much in the PHB3.
Both of the Monster Races are similar in this fashion.
But it does not mean that they have to be useful to every class. They are giving you Monsters you are capable of playing as PC's. They are not necessarily going to be playable for every class.
That being said don't expect them to change all that much in the PHB3.
They probably will change since the Dragon version obviously wasn't designed with the same goals in mind as all of the regular PC races. Once they get stuck in a PHB, they are most certainly no longer "monsters you are capable of playing as PC's" as much as they are "core PC races". They will need a mechanical tweak to bring them in-line with the other core races.
Both of the Monster Races are similar in this fashion.
Right, monster races and PC races are designed differently and for different purposes. If you're turning something from a monster race to a PC race, there should be changes.
But it does not mean that they have to be useful to every class. They are giving you Monsters you are capable of playing as PC's. They are not necessarily going to be playable for every class.
And what I'm saying is that that is irreconcilably counter to what the 4E PC race design philosophy was supposed to be.
That being said don't expect them to change all that much in the PHB3.
Then that being said, I hope that you are very, very wrong. :P
You assume that they just recently gave up on KI. Its possible that this was done about year ago. We are just finding out about it now.
Well, the simplest theory would be that PHB3 was originally going to have a sub-title of "Psionic and Ki Heroes", with four classes of each of the two new power sources making two new "Power" books possible over the following year. At whatever point they scrapped ki, the former ki classes were given new power sources, with at least one each being reassigned to the divine, primal, and psionic power sources (with the last being confirmed in the recent monk articles). That would give us five psionic classes, one divine class, and one primal class, with one leftover class that could have any of the three power sources.
They probably will change since the Dragon version obviously wasn't designed with the same goals in mind as all of the regular PC races. Once they get stuck in a PHB, they are most certainly no longer "monsters you are capable of playing as PC's" as much as they are "core PC races". They will need a mechanical tweak to bring them in-line with the other core races.
Right, monster races and PC races are designed differently and for different purposes. If you're turning something from a monster race to a PC race, there should be changes.
And what I'm saying is that that is irreconcilably counter to what the 4E PC race design philosophy was supposed to be.
Then that being said, I hope that you are very, very wrong. :P
I will bet ya both a cookie that they dont change. :D :D :D At least not in the way that you 2 are wanting it to.
I am sure there will be more feats etc for them. And probably new PP's and an Epic Destiny I am sure. I dont see the races core changing.
I will bet ya both a cookie that they dont change. :D :D :D At least not in the way that you 2 are wanting it to.
You're on!
It's got a bite taken out of it, but that's still cool, right?
I will bet ya both a cookie that they dont change. :D :D :D At least not in the way that you 2 are wanting it to.
I am sure there will be more feats etc for them. And probably new PP's and an Epic Destiny I am sure. I dont see the races core changing.
Just because the Shifters got the shaft? ;)
You're on!
It's got a bite taken out of it, but that's still cool, right?
Dang cookie munchers
What there may be are some racial feats to help them play against type ...
I have only one thing to say to this: FSBNNR. It's the old "Feats should be nice, not required." If they need to make feats to fix it, that just means there's a problem to begin with.
Crimson: FSBNNR. It's the old "Feats should be nice, not required." If they need to make feats to fix it, that just means there's a problem to begin with.
QFT
I have only one thing to say to this: FSBNNR. It's the old "Feats should be nice, not required." If they need to make feats to fix it, that just means there's a problem to begin with.
What, like Tiefling fighters?
What, like Tiefling fighters?
Tieflings' racial power already worked well for Fighters. Its not really the same for Minotaur Wizards.
Tieflings' racial power already worked well for Fighters. Its not really the same for Minotaur Wizards.
Those damned cowmen should just grab their axes and leave the finger wiggling to the real races. ;)
What, like Tiefling fighters?
And what's wrong with Tiefling Fighters?
"Not optimal" is not the same thing as "completely terrible." :P
A Fighter still thinks Low-Light Vision is useful. A Fighter loves a +1 bonus to hit against bloodied foes. A Fighter benefits from taking less damage from fire attacks. A Fighter can still very much make use of a racial power that grants +1 to hit.
To contrast, a Warlock can't make use of Ferocity because it has no weapon with which to make a melee basic attack. A Warlock is a ranged class and has absolutely no desire to charge into melee to use Heedless Charge or the Goring Charge racial power. And if you're using the MM version, the Warlock has no weapon to make Oversized useful in the least.
Those damned cowmen should just grab their axes and leave the finger wiggling to the real races. ;)
Fascist.
Fascist.
I'm choosing not to be offended by that.
I will bet ya both a cookie that they dont change. :D :D :D At least not in the way that you 2 are wanting it to.
I am sure there will be more feats etc for them. And probably new PP's and an Epic Destiny I am sure. I dont see the races core changing.
The Warforged are going to be changed from what they were in the Dragon article when the EPG comes out. Among those changes apparently being the loss of the Living Construct keyword. So the Minotaur will change as well.
Just because the Shifters got the shaft? ;)
The Shifters actually did get changed, if only slightly. Originally their shifting lasted until the end of the encounter OR until knocked unconscious/dying/etc. Now it lasts until the end of the encounter period.
What, like Tiefling fighters?
Not the same at all. Tieflings may be subpar for fighters do to their ability score bonuses, but their racial powers all are still usable by fighters or any other non-Cha or Int class, whether melee or ranged. The Minotaur's racial powers cannot be used by a non-melee class. Therefore a Tiefling will always make a better fighter than a Minotaur will make a Wizard. Hell, a Tiefling makes a better Infernal Warlock than a Minotaur, even though a Tiefling has no Con bonus and a Minotaur does. When you add the racial feats, the disparity becomes even greater.
It occurs to me that the races and classes in a PHB often seem to go together ... if there's more Primal stuff in PH3, then this could be a good place to put PC writeups of the so-called 'savage humanoids' (which are universally savage), like your goblins and orcs.
Thax would have an aneurysm if that happened ... ;)
I have only one thing to say to this: FSBNNR. It's the old "Feats should be nice, not required." If they need to make feats to fix it, that just means there's a problem to begin with.
Unfortunately feats like Weapon Expertise, Implement Expertise, and now Focused Expertise lend poor credence that WotC is actually abiding by any FSBNNR philosophy. Instead they seem to be sticking to a no major changes practice. Once a mechanic is printed it might receive clarification in the FAQ, or an errata if it has a serious mechanically flaw, but they clearly want to avoid invalidating published material. Dragon magazine is considered a core product, thus the minotaur in its present form is considered both published and core. While WotC MIGHT make MINOR revisions to the race, it is highly unlikely that there will be any significant changes. The best that you can realistically hope for is that they will end up with variable racial options, like genasi and shifters, but I wouldn't hold my breath over it.
they clearly want to avoid invalidating published material. Dragon magazine is considered a core product, thus the minotaur in its present form is considered both published and core.
Even if they make no changes at all, they will already be invalidating published material, because the Minotaur Dragon article will then be useless. Likewise, when they release the Warforged next month (with changes since their Dragon article, by the way), they will make the Warforged article obsolete.
If they're going to publish something again, there's not a single reason not to fix it if there's something wrong with it.
To contrast, a Warlock can't make use of Ferocity because it has no weapon with which to make a melee basic attack. A Warlock is a ranged class and has absolutely no desire to charge into melee to use Heedless Charge or the Goring Charge racial power. And if you're using the MM version, the Warlock has no weapon to make Oversized useful in the least.
Eltrich Strike says otherwise, I would think.
Sure, it's only one power, but it's an at-will melee control that counts as a basic attack, IIRC... uses one of the minotaur's good stats.
While Tiefling Fighter much not be the best comparison, how about gnome barbarians? Does a Minotaur make at least as good Wizard (summoner), or Sorcerer, as the gnome makes a barbarian?
And they've already said the Warforged will be changed from what appeared in Dragon. How much is the question.
Well, fortunately, there's not much about the Warforged that needs changing. :P
I therefore would not use the degree to which they change the Warforged as any indication as to what degree they'll change the Minotaur. You can't compare something that needs changing to something that doesn't. ;)
While Tiefling Fighter much not be the best comparison, how about gnome barbarians? Does a Minotaur make at least as good Wizard (summoner), or Sorcerer, as the gnome makes a barbarian?
Thats a faux pas in the barbarian design (two-handed wording), not the gnome's.
Eltrich Strike says otherwise, I would think.
Not at all. Needing to pick a specific power in order to make your racial features useful is exactly as bad as needing to pick a specific feat or a specific build.
While Tiefling Fighter much not be the best comparison, how about gnome barbarians? Does a Minotaur make at least as good Wizard (summoner), or Sorcerer, as the gnome makes a barbarian?
I take it you're referring to how the creators handled small size so ****ing terribly (or the two-handed requirement on Barbarian powers, depending on how you want to look at it). One bad design decision (or two) doesn't justify another.
I fix small size in my games, so yes, a Gnome barbarian is perfectly reasonable and viable. Low-Light Vision is still useful, Ghost Sound is still useful, Reactive Stealth is still useful, bonus to saves versus illusion is still useful, and their racial power to go invisible as an immediate reaction is still useful.
EDIT:
Heh. how about Gnome Avenger, then? I've actually built one of those...
Works fine. What's the problem?
Thats a faux pas in the barbarian design (two-handed wording), not the gnome's.
Plus, it only applies to the Barbarian at-wills as I recall. I don't think their encounters or dailies require 2-handers. And their racials can work well with a Barbarian willing to be stealthy. Really, a Gnome/Halfing Barbarian is about as effective as a Starlock that focuses on Cha to the exclusion of Con (and thus Dire Radiance).
Perhaps you could point out another class they fail at?
Eltrich Strike says otherwise, I would think.
Sure, it's only one power, but it's an at-will melee control that counts as a basic attack, IIRC... uses one of the minotaur's good stats.
Eldritch Strike can only be chosen by Humans and non-Warlock Half-elves.
Well, fortunately, there's not much about the Warforged that needs changing. :P
I therefore would not use the degree to which they change the Warforged as any indication as to what degree they'll change the Minotaur. You can't compare something that needs changing to something that doesn't. ;)
I think losing Living Construct because of the repair apparatus or whatever it's called from the Artificer article is significant enough to show that they felt it does need changing. ;)
Minotaurs seem like they'd make wonderful hexhammer-varient warlocks.
Requiring that they use a specific build to be viable is exactly as bad as requiring them to pick certain feats or select certain class features or power. It all means there's something wrong to begin with.
Perhaps you could point out another class they fail at?
Wizards, Invokers, Shamans, and Sorcerers.
Considering it's a warlock, you don't have much of a choice anyway. Minotaurs seem like they'd make wonderful hexhammer-varient warlocks.
Perhaps you could point out another class they fail at?
Wizards, Shamans, Invokers, Sorcerers
Having a boost to their secondary stat for each of those classes doesn't make up for not being able to use their racials. Ironically, they make better Predator Druids than Guardian Druids because of this, despite the opposing ability score boosts.
I could see Heedless charge being changed to something more caster-friendly, though.
Perhaps, though Ferosity is usable by anyone if you're willing to play up close and personal.
No, it is not. Warlocks, Wizards, Invokers, Shamans, and Sorcerers do not have weapons and therefore cannot make melee basic attacks. Druids are the only implement class that can make useful melee basic attacks.
Just saying.
Warlocks, Wizards, and Sorceres do have weapons... or at least CAN have weapons.
Again, you're requiring specific and specialized builds in order to make the race function. That's exactly as bad as requiring they take a feat. Pigeon-holing the race into specific builds is not a good thing and is completely inconsistent in racial design. You don't see Elves pigeon-holed into being archer rangers as opposed to two-blade rangers in order for their racial features to work, and you don't see Dragonborn pigeon-holed into being dragon sorcerers as opposed to wild sorcerers in order for their racial features to work.
As for Invokers and Shamans... I don't see you complaining about Eladrin Weapon Training, though it's equally useless to those classes.
Actually, assuming you're referring to Eladrin Weapon Proficiency, the only reason I don't complain about it is that it's equally useless to every class. Classes that have proficiency with the longsword don't care, and classes that don't have proficiency with the longsword don't need it. The only exception I can think of is the Cleric.
I will complain about it in fact have complained about it before for being a waste of ink, if that's what you mean. :P
Again, you're requiring specific and specialized builds in order to make the race function. That's exactly as bad as requiring they take a feat. Pigeon-holing the race into specific builds is not a good thing and is completely inconsistent in racial design. You don't see Elves pigeon-holed into being archer rangers as opposed to two-blade rangers in order for their racial features to work, and you don't see Dragonborn pigeon-holed into being dragon sorcerers as opposed to wild sorcerers in order for their racial features to work.
Actually, assuming you're referring to Eladrin Weapon Proficiency, the only reason I don't complain about it is that it's equally useless to every class. Classes that have proficiency with the longsword don't care, and classes that don't have proficiency with the longsword don't need it. The only exception I can think of is the Cleric.
I will complain about it in fact have complained about it before for being a waste of ink, if that's what you mean. :P
Well then, apparetly WotC disagrees with you on weapon based race features. I agree that heedless Charge needs to be replaced with something more general, but Ferocity is fine as written, just as Eladrin, Elven, and Dwarven weapon proficency are fine.
Power Sources don't mean much to me. The default flavor of classes is nice, and I am often fine in using it. However, I am not really bothered by the choice of power source. I suspect, as others have said, the old classes from the Ki power source were already being designed and have been shunted into primal and divine (as well as psionics). As I said, I don't care what power source they call the classes as long as they are fun to play and close to balanced.
Seconded.
Well then, apparetly WotC disagrees with you on weapon based race features.
Completely untrue. Like I've already told you, the vast majority of races out there do follow exactly what I've said. The Minotaur is just the race that's inconsistent and doesn't follow the same design philosophies that all of the other races do.
I agree that heedless Charge needs to be replaced with something more general, but Ferocity is fine as written
The two are just as bad as one another. I don't see how you could think one needs to go to be changed but not think the other needs to go or be changed.
just as Eladrin, Elven, and Dwarven weapon proficency are fine.
They're not fine, though. They're a complete waste of ink. The only thing "fine" about them is that they're equally useless to almost everybody.
Putting aside race/class guesses for a moment... that cover looks REALLY awesome.
Just saying.
I agree. It made me smile with joy.
Again, you're requiring specific and specialized builds in order to make the race function.
Erm... when it comes to sorcerers, you'd have to take a specific feat in order to be caught weaponless. For the rest, I've got no argument.
Now...I gotta say I'm worried about the PH3. Primal and Divine? I don't want to see Wu Jen and Shugenja at all, let alone as either of those sources. But, I'll give the benefit of the doubt. There are a few things about 4e I haven't been completely satisfied with...but much less so than 3.crap... So I'll wait and see.
As for races...I don't have much to say except that Gith will probably be treated MUCH like shifters. in terms of the stat block. Two sets of stats and such in one block to offer two races in half the space. Minotaurs seem to need something changed from what others have said...since they should be as good at Wizard as any other race that isn't geared for Wizard. Half-orcs have an issue of their own...since their racial power seems highly melee oriented, doesn't it?
Oh well...
Erm... when it comes to sorcerers, you'd have to take a specific feat in order to be caught weaponless.
Untrue. Despite the fact that their implements to also function as weapons, a Sorcerer would have to take that feat to make their melee basic attack key off of CHA in order to make their melee basic attack anywhere near useful.
I'm playing a Gnoll Staff/Tome dual implement summoner right now...
I'm sorry.
That's the other tragically unfortunate Dragon race...
Untrue. Despite the fact that their implements to also function as weapons, a Sorcerer would have to take that feat to make their melee basic attack key off of CHA in order to make their melee basic attack anywhere near useful.
Not really. A Dragon Sorcerer or Cosmic sorcerer would already have a high strength.
I'm sorry.
That's the other tragically unfortunate Dragon race...
I'm not having a problem... why would you call then unfortunate?
The Warforged are going to be changed from what they were in the Dragon article when the EPG comes out. Among those changes apparently being the loss of the Living Construct keyword. So the Minotaur will change as well.
The Shifters actually did get changed, if only slightly. Originally their shifting lasted until the end of the encounter OR until knocked unconscious/dying/etc. Now it lasts until the end of the encounter period.
Not the same at all. Tieflings may be subpar for fighters do to their ability score bonuses, but their racial powers all are still usable by fighters or any other non-Cha or Int class, whether melee or ranged. The Minotaur's racial powers cannot be used by a non-melee class. Therefore a Tiefling will always make a better fighter than a Minotaur will make a Wizard. Hell, a Tiefling makes a better Infernal Warlock than a Minotaur, even though a Tiefling has no Con bonus and a Minotaur does. When you add the racial feats, the disparity becomes even greater.
That change to the Warforged has been in the Compendium for some time now. It is just getting clarified now.
Not really. A Dragon Sorcerer or Cosmic sorcerer would already have a high strength.
I'll say it yet again, pigeon-holing into specific builds is not good.
I'm not having a problem... why would you call then unfortunate?
Well it's not as bad as the Minotaur, I suppose. At least in your case you have one racial feature you can still use (plus Low-Light vision and above average speed) as opposed to none in the case of the Minotaur. Still, I say that not getting any use out of your racial power is pretty unfortunate, and there's no reason they couldn't have had Pack Attack apply to your ranged, close, or area powers as well...
I cannot think of anything they will add other then the loosest of fluff or narrow, narrow roles and excuses to test out new mechanics.
I imagine some of the classes are ones pulled from the now dead Ki source and placed into Primal and Divine. And we can probably expect a good 4-6 Psionic classes (one per role plus the typical two strikers).
As for races...I don't have much to say except that Gith will probably be treated MUCH like shifters. in terms of the stat block. Two sets of stats and such in one block to offer two races in half the space. Minotaurs seem to need something changed from what others have said...since they should be as good at Wizard as any other race that isn't geared for Wizard. Half-orcs have an issue of their own...since their racial power seems highly melee oriented, doesn't it?
Oh well...
I really hope the Gith are separated, but unfortunately you're probably right.
The Half-Orcs aren't near as bad off as Minotaurs. All three of the Minotaur's abilities are restricted to melee actions, while only one of the Half-Orc's three abilities are melee restricted.
The minotaur on the cover is obvoisly a weapon user in heavy armor. Can we speculate on what class he is, based on those facts and the PHB theme?
The minotaur on the cover is obvoisly a weapon user in heavy armor. Can we speculate on what class he is, based on those facts and the PHB theme?
Yes, easily.
1) Primal classes all clothe themselves in the remains of dead animals, not metal. ;)
2) Psionic classes have historically (D&D history ofc) tended not to wear any armor at all.
3) That looks more like Plate armor than anything else to me. Also, it's black with red runes. And so is his maul.
Conclusion: a plate-and-2h-weapon divine class. One that Minotaurs might find appealing, and that makes their eyes glow red.
I'm thinking Blackguard.
The name might be changed, since ofc the "has to be evil" fluff must go.
But basically, a steamroller striker. Sort of a 2HW Fighter with the defender elements excised and replaced with something striker-y.
So far, every power source has had 4 classes tied to it in the CORE books (not counting the campaign guides):
- Martial: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Warlord. All PH1.
- Divine: Cleric, Avenger, Invoker, Paladin. PH1 and PH2.
- Arcane: Warlock, Bard, Sorceror, Wizard. PH1 and PH2.
- Primal: Barbarian, Shaman, Warden, Druid. All PH2
Adding Primal and Divine classes to PH3 would break the above mold and favor some power sources over others.
Also, Martial Power was released after all the Martial classes were revealed in PH1. Arcane Power, Divine Power, and Primal Power have all been either released or will be released in the period between PH2 and PH3. All of these books include one or two additional builds to add to the two (always two in PH) already existing builds each class starts with. It makes little or no sense to release NEW Primal and Divine classes AFTER those books have been released as they will receive a much less favorable treatment than the previous classes within that power source.
Honestly, I believe Wizards have dangled an illusionary carrot in front of us, guys. They wanted to show us a possible cover for PH3 to publicize their change to DDI, but did not want to show us all the power sources that will show up in PH3 aside from the Psionic power source already confirmed through the Monk playtesting pages in Dragon Magazine.
I say don't lose hope yet.
I am actually really disappointed. I have already been waiting for the Shadow Power Source for a while and now it's going to be even longer. So much for a Necromancer.
I'm with you. Now I expected a new primal class or two given that the Wilden is going to be one of the new races, so that doesn't surprise me. But more Divine? We just got divine classes in PH2 I'd rather PH3 focus more on new power sources. I mean there'll be Psionic but yeah Shadow would've been cool because then we'd hopefully get Ninja and Necromancer. Oh well it's still way too early I'm sure not everything is set in stone yet.
I am the Gith are separate because I already have trouble telling which one are the 'zerai and which one are the 'yanki so to have them on the same page would just confuse me even more!!
Putting aside race/class guesses for a moment... that cover looks REALLY awesome.
Just saying.
No foolin'! Looks almost like a photograph!
As for races...I don't have much to say except that Gith will probably be treated MUCH like shifters. in terms of the stat block. Two sets of stats and such in one block to offer two races in half the space.
Unlikely. Shifters have two similar stat blocks but only a single culture, so they count as a single race. The githyanki and githzerai have distinctly different stat blocks and more importantly entirely different cultures (they don't even live on the same plain). The giths are related races but are as different as elves and eladrin, so they are just as likely to have separate racial entries.
Honestly, I believe Wizards have dangled an illusionary carrot in front of us, guys. They wanted to show us a possible cover for PH3 to publicize their change to DDI, but did not want to show us all the power sources that will show up in PH3 aside from the Psionic power source already confirmed through
A fake cover? Can you imagine the uproar after that got revealed?
And the rest of your argument is leaking like a sieve, since it's already been announced there will be multiple splatbooks for each power source.
So, sorry, no, what you see is what you're getting.
Honestly, I believe Wizards have dangled an illusionary carrot in front of us, guys. They wanted to show us a possible cover for PH3 to publicize their change to DDI, but did not want to show us all the power sources that will show up in PH3 aside from the Psionic power source already confirmed through the Monk playtesting pages in Dragon Magazine.
It is unlikely that the power sources are false leads. If WotC wasn't yet ready to reveal the actual power sources for PHB3 then they could have just left the line blank as they do when showing off M:tG cards that aren't part of the officially approved previews.
A fake cover? Can you imagine the uproar after that got revealed?
And the rest of your argument is leaking like a sieve, since it's already been announced there will be multiple splatbooks for each power source.
So, sorry, no, what you see is what you're getting.
Yup. We already know for a fact Martial Power 2 and I think another #2 is coming next year. Giving the newer classes more prominence in 2+ is most likely.
Incidentally, while on the subject of future releases, I was looking over a preview of Divine Power that talked about the rise of the Raven Queen. It is stated that the Raven Queen was not so much granted dominion over the dead, but instead over Death itself. As she is a God, it is entirely conceivable that a Necromancer could show up as a new Divine controller or Leader that specializes in Death related prayers (Necrotic, some radiant, maybe some traditional life draining effects, DoTs, and debuffs). Just so I don't stick my foot in my mouth here, has it been *confirmed* that Shadow (as in Shadowfell) would become a new power source?
Alright, I'll concede the point in this one. I was not aware that further power source sourcebooks would be coming out. Mind you, I'm still not entirely convinced, so I'm sure you'll allow me to sit on the fence on this one.
Incidentally, while on the subject of future releases, I was looking over a preview of Divine Power that talked about the rise of the Raven Queen. It is stated that the Raven Queen was not so much granted dominion over the dead, but instead over Death itself. As she is a God, it is entirely conceivable that a Necromancer could show up as a new Divine controller or Leader that specializes in Death related prayers (Necrotic, some radiant, maybe some traditional life draining effects, DoTs, and debuffs). Just so I don't stick my foot in my mouth here, has it been *confirmed* that Shadow (as in Shadowfell) would become a new power source?
Shadow was mentioned as a separate source in PHB1, along with Psionics, Primal, Elemental, and Ki. When Ki was announced as axed, Mike Mearls flat out said that Shadow and Elemental were still being developed, and would be getting used. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth over some preconceived notion that Arcane makes everything obsolete has ensued.
Yes, easily.
1) Primal classes all clothe themselves in the remains of dead animals, not metal. ;)
2) Psionic classes have historically (D&D history ofc) tended not to wear any armor at all.
3) That looks more like Plate armor than anything else to me. Also, it's black with red runes. And so is his maul.
Conclusion: a plate-and-2h-weapon divine class. One that Minotaurs might find appealing, and that makes their eyes glow red.
I'm thinking Blackguard.
The name might be changed, since ofc the "has to be evil" fluff must go.
But basically, a steamroller striker. Sort of a 2HW Fighter with the defender elements excised and replaced with something striker-y.
Interesting. It would avoid stepping on the Avenger's toes by being almost a mirror of the Paladin... and avoids stepping on the paladin's toes by pure legacy value- Everybody already accepts that a Blackguard is just like a Paladin, except he hurts people more.
Note that they WOULD have to keep the Blackguard name for it to work- The legacy would be the only thing that keeps irate players from storiming the boards with more "this class is just a lame ripoff" posts.
I didn't keep my 3.x books around... anyone got suggestions for a Blackguard's Striker mechanic and Channel Divinities?
Note that they WOULD have to keep the Blackguard name for it to work- The legacy would be the only thing that keeps irate players from storiming the boards with more "this class is just a lame ripoff" posts.
I think the Blackguard works much better as a Shadow Defender or a Shadow Striker than a Divine one. the Blackguard really is an evil paladin who hurts (good) people.
The 3.5 the Blackguard's mechanics tended to focus on the Paladin's abilities except the opposite (Smite Good, Detect Good, Aura of Evil, etc.) as well as adding Sneak Attack (for more damage) and a Dark Servant, which amounted to an evil Familiar.
At any rate, this is neither here nor there. if the Blackguard is indeed what the minotaur on the cover is, then I would hope he differentiates himself mechanically from the Paladin and the Avenger more than simply being 'combine the two with black armor.' Perhaps he'll have a divine spirit (of some sorts) that can be used to enhance his own abilities (shown by making his eyes glow red) or be used offensively, inflicting an enemy with status effects (like stunned, etc.). In a way he'd be more of a Defender/Controller or a Defender/Striker, given different builds.
I have found nothing on the Elan race! I searched Google, Wikipedia...nothing! Could anybody direct me to a safe page of info on Elans please?
On top of the classes and races (we know of 3 based on the playtests and cover art shown) we'll also have the hybrid classes rules which will take up nearly as much space as a single class considering they have to put in the hybrid class version of every class published up to that poing (minimum 24 with 6 classes in PH3).
Until we see confirmation that there are new CLASSES for primal and divine I'm not gonna say we'll see 8 classes. The cover says heroes not classes after all. We could just see more options/support for them akin to the X Power books. We may only see 1 new class each. Psionic could be 4-6 classes.
On top of the classes and races (we know of 3 based on the playtests and cover art shown) we'll also have the hybrid classes rules which will take up nearly as much space as a single class considering they have to put in the hybrid class version of every class published up to that poing (minimum 24 with 6 classes in PH3).
Your wrong.
PHB's are for Races/Classes/Feats/PP's/ED's Ect.
BLANK Power books are for options.
Why not Shadow?
Why more primal? ugh
We are not entering the arena of the absurd. Do we really need 6 or more Divine or Primal classes?
so rather than you know doing something smart and guaranteeing that the PHB3 would sell as well as II and I, they decide to commit Stupidity and not release something that has more appeal than "Azn classes" such as the Necromancer.
It occurs to me that the races and classes in a PHB often seem to go together ... if there's more Primal stuff in PH3, then this could be a good place to put PC writeups of the so-called 'savage humanoids' (which are universally savage), like your goblins and orcs.
i agree with your position generally, but unlike minotaurs, gnolls, lizardfolk and orcs, none of goblin races are or should be associated with primal power, imo.
I'm not sure minotaurs really needed a change either...and for the warlock, wizard, invoker, sorcerer...there IS reaper's touch. it works people
If you need to subscribe to Dragon and hunt down a specific feat to make your racial power work with your class, then something is really wrong.
I'm not sure minotaurs really needed a change either...and for the warlock, wizard, invoker, sorcerer...there IS reaper's touch. it works people
Being forced to use a feat to use your racials is bad design.
Well, I'm happy to see psionics, even though we've know we're getting it for awhile now.
Divine... Not exactly optimal, but I can see a few interesting options being pulled from there, so I'm cool with this...
Primal... hmm... primal...
Seriously, I'm not seeing what else we can get out of Primal that hasn't already been done... Very very disappointed WoTC. This is wasted space now that could have been used on the elemental or shadow power source, or at the very least a few more bits of stuff for martial. We don't need anymore Primal classes.
Seriously, I'm not seeing what else we can get out of Primal that hasn't already been done... Very very disappointed WoTC. This is wasted space now that could have been used on the elemental or shadow power source, or at the very least a few more bits of stuff for martial. We don't need anymore Primal classes.
I'm hesitant to accuse WotC of screwing up. While I'm still rather miffed at them for abandoning the Ki power source, and even more so because of the lame excuse of a reason they gave for doing so, I still have more faith in than disdain for their creative talents. I trust that they have a plan.
Still It seems with the imminent arrival of Martial Power 2, it would have been more sensible to include martial as one of the three power sources in PHB3.
I'm also disappointed to have to wait until PHB4 (at the earliest) for the shadow power source. The few paragon paths with shadow as a secondary source that have already been released made it seem like it was all but confirmed for PHB3. As it stands now I feel a little teased.
My ideal PHB3 (after the collapse of the ki power source) would have been 4 psionic, 2 shadow, and 2 martial classes.
Being forced to use a feat to use your racials is bad design.
Nobody forces you to take those feats, and if you decide to do so you can have quite an effective character playing against the minotaur's natural strengths. You can also choose not to take the feats. Your character can still use the racials. Just because the abilities are not inherently useful for every class, does not mean you can't use them at all. You can goring charge at any time, and even if your strength is 8, at level 1 you would still be attacking at +4. At level 11, it's +11. At level 21, it's +19. Not optimal, but not useless. You can make a melee basic attack as an unarmed attack or improvised weapon attack. It's not optimal, but you can still do it. No feats are forced upon you.
Not every race has to be optimal for every class. You can be anything you want if you play a minotaur, and you will not receive a penalty to your stats for doing so.
So we settled on a hybrid approach. Each 4E race gets a small roster of abilities that make them stand out from other races. Each race gets a single unique power at first level that stays cool and useful over the character’s entire career. And each race has a unique selection of feats that flesh out the race’s advantages compared to other races.
Minotaurs stand out.
The minotaur's power is still useful, regardless of class. It's cool. It's unique.
Unique feats? Check.
Find me something else on 4th edition design philosophy that says each race has to be good for every class. If everything fits into one neat little box without room for exception, then THAT is bad design.
I don't think we should worry about the classes much with the exception of the psionic classes. I'm most concerned with the races that are coming out. So far we know the Wildren, Minotaur, and Gith are coming out. What other races seem primal, divine, or psionic enough to be included?
well, as has been stated, gnolls could eaily be associated with primal. also, if, in fact, wotc is trending to put all races written up in dragon into a book, then gnolls are a likely candidate.
well, as has been stated, gnolls could eaily be associated with primal. also, if, in fact, wotc is trending to put all races written up in dragon into a book, then gnolls are a likely candidate.
I was hoping so. Anything else?
Thri-kreen have always had a psionic bent, but if Dark Sun is the campaign setting that summer, they'll be located in that PG.
Duergar, to offset the drow.
I don't see Dromites, but maybe an Elan or Xeph writeup?
Edit: @LawfulGoodGnoll: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm
Something is not right here.
So far, every power source has had 4 classes tied to it in the CORE books (not counting the campaign guides):
- Martial: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Warlord. All PH1.
- Divine: Cleric, Avenger, Invoker, Paladin. PH1 and PH2.
- Arcane: Warlock, Bard, Sorceror, Wizard. PH1 and PH2.
- Primal: Barbarian, Shaman, Warden, Druid. All PH2
Adding Primal and Divine classes to PH3 would break the above mold and favor some power sources over others.
[\QUOTE]
Just as they have said they will not create needless symmetry just to fill the power source grid, the inverse should also apply, which would posit that if they have sufficient amount of good ideas, they should not hesitate to create more than 4 classes for a given power source.
I was hoping so. Anything else?
with shadow postponed, that leaves shadar-kai out. beyond that, it is anyone's guess. some say more psi oriented races. i definitely believe that if thri-kreen get a hard cover write-up at all, it will be dspg.
Your wrong.
PHB's are for Races/Classes/Feats/PP's/ED's Ect.
BLANK Power books are for options.
And had I said primal or divine anything was going to be in the PH3 a week ago what would you have said? Probably something as blunt and as potentially incorrect. I think its likely that we don't see many new classes, I personally have a hard time beliving they could make another 2 divine and 2 primal classes, i certainly can't think of any that don't heavily step on the toes of another class or are poor and gimmicky (ie doing something like taking away a druids wild shape giving it an animal companion and calling it a new class). I think options are more likely to be honest but some people don't want to accept WotC will do stupid stuff just to make money.
We all assumed the new would be Ki but Ki is dead and we now know its Psionic.
Has this been confirmed? Ki's dead? where can I read it?
The other two sources (Divine and Primal in this book) are just filler. Everybody knows that WotC "planned" out 4E better. That means that they figured out a way for it to last 10 years. BEHOLD! This is how.
So who cares if its these sources or any combination of the others? This is WotC's way of telling us that these classes are "less important" like the "Complete" series from 3E. I, personally, appriciate the message.
Anyways, long live Psionics!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
To contrast, a Warlock can make use of Ferocity by using the newly available Eldritch Strike to make a melee basic attack. A Warlock is typically a ranged class but some have come up with methods for melee-locks. And if you're using the MM version, you're a tool, because Oversized is super broke.
Bolded parts are my fixes. =D
Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Invokers, etc. They all have options that can allow them to mix it up in melee as well as make use of the minotaur's racial abilities. You just have to think outside the "CASTERS MUST HIDE/REMAIN FAR AWAY" box.
With that in mind, could someone please explain to me just why the Gith need to be treated as two separate races mechanically? I gather the yanki and zerai live in the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea respectively, but they look almost exactly the same to me at face value. What warrants filling in two race slots where one 'Gith' race might do?
As a guy who has found previous editions of D&D to be incomprehensible and unnecessarily complex, I was turned on to 4th Ed by the Penny Arcade podcasts and am now DMing a group of 6 most weeks. It's great fun!
With that in mind, could someone please explain to me just why the Gith need to be treated as two separate races mechanically? I gather the yanki and zerai live in the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea respectively, but they look almost exactly the same to me at face value. What warrants filling in two race slots where one 'Gith' race might do?
I can see where you're coming from but there is a difference. Besides the culture argument (shifters have one culture as opposed to each type having a different one}, Shifters share one racial stat modifier per type, while the different kinds of Gith have only one mechanic in common (of course PC write ups could change this). So first off you have the fact that while the two types of Shifter fit nicely into one stat block the Gith wouldn't. In addition the cultural differances between the two are big enough that they'd need twice the fluff write up.
So even if combined the Gith would still take up more than two pages (whereas both types of Shifter fit on one two page spread) so since they take up the page space of two separate races they may as well be presented as such.
They share the same origin and physiology, but little else.
My only concern is the minotaur on the cover. I thought we had been told that everything in the magazines was "core", and wouldn't be reprinted except for the yearly anthologies (which may or may not happen now).
The Minotaur on the cover irritates me though. First the Warforged, now the Minotaur, and as bwcmd1 the Shadar-kai will probably be next. Seriously, what's the point of new race articles in Dragon if they're just going to show up in a PHB or PG shortly afterwards? The only consolation I take from this is that the Dragon Minotaur is way too melee oriented, when all races are supposed to be designed to function as casters or melee, so hopefully PH3 will fix that.
I have to agree with these posters.
You pay for Dragon, we've been told over and over that it's "Core" and "Official" only to have content from it reprinted.
Lame!
A fake cover? Can you imagine the uproar after that got revealed?
The first PHB had a fake cover before the release of Dragonborn.
This might be fake too.
I'm thinking Blackguard.
The name might be changed, since ofc the "has to be evil" fluff must go.
But basically, a steamroller striker. Sort of a 2HW Fighter with the defender elements excised and replaced with something striker-y.
You mean like a barbarian?
Blackguard is NOT a class, it's a paladin build serving an evil god. I can see a 2HW paladin in Divine Power but a class all on its own? 110% filler. That's a Paladin McBarbarian or an Avenger McBarbarian or one of the new fancy hybrid classes.
Given the page count of the PHB3 and the number of pages likely eaten-up by hybrid classes we might see fewer classes in PHB3, since it will be closer in size to PHB2 than PHB1.
I'd say 7 classes.
The Ki classes have probably been shifted to psionic and divine (and shadow and elemenetal), and I *hope* that's why divine is getting a nod. They might have another primal class in them, but I can't see how without stretching and forcing.
Dragon Magazine represents experimental designs, followed by reallife playtesting and critique, to improve its flavor and mechanics. Afterward, the PHs collect the cream of the crop and makes it part of the D&D canon. Its a healthy process.
Right now 4e is still new, so most of the material in Dragon Magazine is already canon from 3e that needs to be translated into 4e, and all of it is done by WotC designers. But later, after the bulk the traditional material crosses over, Dragon can start to publish material from players at large, which is more experimental and niche-themed, most of which wont make the PH canon. At that time, Dragon subscribers will get their special content that wont be published elsewhere (except for certain design concepts that become very popular and well designed).
With that in mind, could someone please explain to me just why the Gith need to be treated as two separate races mechanically? I gather the yanki and zerai live in the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea respectively, but they look almost exactly the same to me at face value. What warrants filling in two race slots where one 'Gith' race might do?
That's assuming they write up both Gith races. The githyanki are very akin to the orc in the 'always evil' mdoe so it's possible they won't write them up at all. People saying they need to do both should also be demanding that they catch up on the other races missing a related/subrace: dwarf (duergars, azer), gnome (spriggan and korred), half-orc (orc), dragonborn (lizardfolk, drakkoth, dragon, etc.). Many of those I listed don't even have a MM writeup at this point (just orc and duergar).
Githzerai at least aren't considered evil and while not guaranteed to be good guys or allies they at least aren't tied to an immortal lich queen and have been known to help the 'mortal' races. Minotaur (the other race on the cover) while traditionally evil, near mindless brutes got a 'facelift' due to Dragonlance and became more than a 1 dimensional monster-to-slay. They even became known to be heroic and good, not all evil (though in DL they were more like imperial Rome trying to expand rather than out and out evil). They're presence in PH3 shows a bit of this carry over from DL and puts the minotaur more in an 'antagonist' role rather than 'monster' role.
Bolded parts are my fixes. =D
Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, Invokers, etc. They all have options that can allow them to mix it up in melee as well as make use of the minotaur's racial abilities. You just have to think outside the "CASTERS MUST HIDE/REMAIN FAR AWAY" box.
I don't think it's getting through to people that if you're requiring that a character be built a particular way in order to work, that is a bad thing. I should not have to take feats to make my racial features work. I should not have to pick very specific powers to make my racial features work. I should not have to play a specific build to make my racial features work. That is bad design, plain and simple. If you need to do all these things to make your racial features work, that means they don't work in the first place.
Again, the vast majority of other races do not have this problem. You do not have to jump through any hoops for your Tiefling Fighter to get to use Blood Hunt's +1 bonus to hit versus bloodied foes. You don't have to take any feats so that Elven Accuracy will work with your Paladin's melee attacks instead of just your ranged attacks. You don't have to pick any specific class powers as a Wizard in order for your Dragonborn to make use of his superior healing surge value.
You don't have to pick any specific class powers as a Wizard in order for your Dragonborn to make use of his superior healing surge value.
His dragonsbreath, on the other hand... An orb wizard can't spare the physical stat to hit with the thing. Same for Dragonborn Invoker and Bard, and other "mental only" classes.
The first PHB had a fake cover before the release of Dragonborn.
This might be fake too.
You mean this?
That was originally supposed to be actually cover art for PHB1. It wasn't an attempt at trickery. Dragonborn were a well known race after having been prominently discussed in the Races and Classes preview book, so there would never have been any need for deception.
The reason for the change was instead due to concerns that the Tielfing with the excessively large horns might send the wrong message (D&D still struggles with people that try make it out as a gate way into devil worshiping cults).
His dragonsbreath, on the other hand...
What about it?
You don't need to pick any specific class powers or class features or feats or play a specific build or anything else to make it useful.I don't think it's getting through to people that if you're requiring that a character be built a particular way in order to work, that is a bad thing. I should not have to take feats to make my racial features work. I should not have to pick very specific powers to make my racial features work. I should not have to play a specific build to make my racial features work. That is bad design, plain and simple. If you need to do all these things to make your racial features work, that means they don't work in the first place.
Again, the vast majority of other races do not have this problem. You do not have to jump through any hoops for your Tiefling Fighter to get to use Blood Hunt's +1 bonus to hit versus bloodied foes. You don't have to take any feats so that Elven Accuracy will work with your Paladin's melee attacks instead of just your ranged attacks. You don't have to pick any specific class powers as a Wizard in order for your Dragonborn to make use of his superior healing surge value.
And if you're a caster class (especially wizard) unless you take feats or a specific paragon path you'll never get your eladrin longsword bonus and eladrins are supposed to make good wizards. Not every racial power will work with every class. There's no reason it should. It's why Dragon has an article on the classes and races and how 'well matched' each race is to each class.
If your racial features and stats don't mesh with your class it doesn't make it bad game design, it makes it a roleplaying opportunity. Game design shouldn't be built around min-maxing and CharOp but around a world with diverse and distinct races, cultures, classes, and room for the 'odd one' to shine despite the limitations of things like being of a class that doesn't maximize or even use all their racial strengths.
And if you're a caster class (especially wizard) unless you take feats or a specific paragon path you'll never get your eladrin longsword bonus and eladrins are supposed to make good wizards. Not every racial power will work with every class. There's no reason it should. It's why Dragon has an article on the classes and races and how 'well matched' each race is to each class.
If your racial features and stats don't mesh with your class it doesn't make it bad game design, it makes it a roleplaying opportunity. Game design shouldn't be built around min-maxing and CharOp but around a world with diverse and distinct races, cultures, classes, and room for the 'odd one' to shine despite the limitations of things like being of a class that doesn't maximize or even use all their racial strengths.
The Eladrin proficiency is a very minor trait compared to the bonus against charm and the fey step ability or Eladrin Education. All of those are useful to any classes. The longsword is really just a fluff thing represented.
On the other hand a Minotaur caster will not find any of its racial traits useful.
And if you're a caster class (especially wizard) unless you take feats or a specific paragon path you'll never get your eladrin longsword bonus
What Eladrin longsword bonuses? Eladrin don't get any longsword bonuses. Do you mean proficiency? Because that's exactly as useful to a Wizards as it is to a Fighter. Neither class cares, and you have to take additional feats and other options to make it useful to either class.
(EDIT: And as Undrave has pointed out, you're comparing one very minor racial feature in one case to every single racial feature in another. That's not an appropriate comparison to make your point.)
Not every racial power will work with every class. There's no reason it should.
This is just flat out wrong. It was supposed to be a specific racial design philosophy of 4E that all PC races would be able to function reasonably well as a member of any class. Not awesomely but reasonably. It doesn't have to be "totally great!" It just has to "not completely suck."
Game design shouldn't be built around min-maxing and CharOp
Nobody has suggested it should. Where are you getting this?
But you DO require a specific build- as I point out, an Orb wizard doesn't have the stats to use it.
No, no specific build is required. Even if you are an orb wizard with 10 STR, 10 CON, and 10 DEX (which would make a terrible orb wizard for any race, by the way), you still get a free minor action attack. You won't have the best bonus ever, but because you get a racial bonus to hit with it, it targets Reflex, and it it's a minor action that won't keep you from continuing to fulfill your party role if you miss, it can very much still be useful.
No, no specific build is required. Even if you are an orb wizard with 10 STR, 10 CON, and 10 DEX (which would make a terrible orb wizard for any race, by the way), you still get a free minor action attack. You won't have the best bonus ever, but because you get a racial bonus to hit with it, it targets Reflex, and it it's a minor action that won't keep you from continuing to fulfill your party role if you miss, it can very much still be useful.
Come again? An orb wizard has little to no use for STR or DEX, and only limited use for CON. Furthermore, while dragon breath has a built in attack bonus, it is only enough to compensate for the lack of bonus from a magic weapon/implement. A character must start with a minimum of 14 in one of those 3 stats and must also boost that stat at every opportunity or else the attack will become of negligible use.
No, no specific build is required. Even if you are an orb wizard with 10 STR, 10 CON, and 10 DEX (which would make a terrible orb wizard for any race, by the way), you still get a free minor action attack. You won't have the best bonus ever, but because you get a racial bonus to hit with it, it targets Reflex, and it it's a minor action that won't keep you from continuing to fulfill your party role if you miss, it can very much still be useful.
And Ferocity can be used by any class, without an action, even if they don't have the right stats. Heck, even the shaman can still punch someone in the face using it. It targets AC, but you get a +2 or +3 proficency bonus if you so much as carry a dagger around.
Come again? An orb wizard has little to no use for STR or DEX, and only limited use for CON. Furthermore, while dragon breath has a built in attack bonus, it is only enough to compensate for the lack of bonus from a magic weapon/implement. A character must start with a minimum of 14 in one of those 3 stats and must also boost that stat at every opportunity or else the attack will become of negligible use.
And Ferocity can be used by any class, without an action, even if they don't have the right stats. Heck, even the shaman can still punch someone in the face using it. It targets AC, but you get a +2 or +3 proficency bonus if you so much as carry a dagger around.
I still heavily disagree with these assertions, but you both seem to be ignoring what Undrave said. Even if you were right, you're still talking about one "not quite as useful as it could be" racial feature on a race that can still very much use its other racial features in comparison to a race that might as well have no racial feature at all if it doesn't play a melee class.
As I stated earlier, I agree that the minotaur's other abilities need to be changed.
Then why are we arguing?
Then why are we arguing?
Because it's teh interwebz and u suxxx!!!1111111!!!!!!!\
I'm still dumbfounded as to how you can change the racial power when it's very iconic of what the minotaur should be capable of doing.... maybe they should give you the choice to either knock prone or push several squares, that way a non-melee player will remain out of melee after charging.
I still heavily disagree with these assertions, but you both seem to be ignoring what Undrave said. Even if you were right, you're still talking about one "not quite as useful as it could be" racial feature on a race that can still very much use its other racial features in comparison to a race that might as well have no racial feature at all if it doesn't play a melee class.
Note, dragonborn also require a minimum CON of 12 to gain any benefit from their improved healing surge value, so that's two class features that can be heavily impacted by one's choice of class+build.
The design goal of 4e isn't necessarily that every race can be a good fit for every class without effort. It takes more effort to make minotaurs a good choice for non-melee classes, but they have options in the form of feets that make them not only viable but uniquely interesting. When players choose to play against type they should expect something of an uphill climb. Minotaur might be the most extreme example of that, but that doesn't make them bad design.
I'm still dumbfounded as to how you can change the racial power when it's very iconic of what the minotaur should be capable of doing...
I fixed this problem with the minotaur in my sig. They still get to attack with their horns, but don't make them have to spend a standard action and charge into melee to do it (though they can if they want to). Making it a minor action keeps it useful to everybody.
Note, dragonborn also require a minimum CON of 12 to gain any benefit from their improved healing surge value, so that's two class features, that can be heavily impacted by one's choice of class+build.
Impacted, yes, made useless, no. Every class and build benefits from it, just some more than others. I don't suggest that every racial feature should be equally useful to every class and build, just that they have some use.
The design goal of 4e isn't necessarily that every race can be a good fit for every class without effort.
I didn't say "good." I said "reasonable" and "not bad." That's not the same thing.
It takes more effort to make minotaurs a good choice for non-melee classes, but they have options in the form of feets that make them not only viable but uniquely interesting.
Feats should be nice, not required.
When players choose to play against type they should expect something of an uphill climb.
I don't disagree, but there's a different between not being optimal and completely sucking.
Minotaur might be the most extreme example of that, but that doesn't make them bad design.
They are the very definition of bad design. They completely fail to follow the most basic of design philosophies. They are completely counter to the design goals that were set out. That is bad.
Impacted, yes, made useless, no. Every class and build benefits from it, just some more than others. I don't suggest that every racial feature should be equally useful to every class and build, just that they have some use.
A dragonborn that starts with 8 or 9 con and never boosts it will never have a CON bonus and thus never gain bonus healing from their racial trait.
Feats should be nice, not required.
If that was ever part of 4e design philosophy it gotten thrown out of a forty-story window when the expertise feats were introduced.
I don't disagree, but there's a different between not being optimal and completely sucking.
A minotaur typically only needs a single feat (melee training or reaper's touch) to gain at least limited benefit out of its racial traits. Even without such a feat, they are no worse off than a shifter that doesn't get bloodied.
A dragonborn that starts with 8 or 9 con and never boosts it will never have a CON bonus and the never gain bonus healing fromtheir racial trait.
And that's a terrible decision for any class or build this Dragonborn decides to play as.
If that was ever part of 4e design philosophy it gotten thown out of a forty-story window when the expertise feats were introduced.
1) One bad design decision doesn't justify another.
2) Not everybody is entirely convinced that the expertise feats are actually required. "Awesome" and "required" are not the same thing. People got along perfectly fine before the release of those feats, and they get along perfectly fine without taking those feats now.
A minotaur typically only needs a single feat
You will never win this argument with, "if you just take a feat..."
And that's because, yet again, feats should be nice, not required. If you need a feat to fix your problem, that just proves there's a problem to begin with.
Even without such a feat, they are no worse off than a shifter that doesn't get bloodied.
Completely untrue. There's a big difference between "I have absolutely no racial feature that I can make use of at all" and "I can totally make use of all of my racial feature, but I just haven't gotten the chance to yet."
You can melee basic with unarmed strike, you know...
And that's a terrible decision for any class or build this Dragonborn decides to play as.
This isn't 3E. Low CON score is perfectly viable, especialy for non-melee builds.
You will never win this argument with, "if you just take a feat..."
And that's because, yet again, feats should be nice, not required. If you need a feat to fix your problem, that just proves there's a problem to begin with.
Even without their racial abilities a minotaur is not actually penalized, thus they are perfectly viable in any class+build. They might be extremely sub-optimal in some of those builds, even more so than any other race, but that only makes it a bad option not a non-option.
Completely untrue. There's a big difference between "I have absolutely no racial feature that I can make use of at all" and "I can totally make use of all of my racial feature, but I just haven't gotten the chance to yet."
A minotaur that hasn't taken the appropriate feat is still totally capable of making use of his racial abilities, he just hasn't yet had the opportunity (feat opportunity that is) to do so.
As for what other races there will be, my most freverent hope is that the ThiKreen and Mul are in either PHB3 or the Dark Sun books and that Dark Sun is the new setting to showcase the Psionic power source. And with any luck we might even see the return of the Half Giants, Pterrans and Aarakocra as races in these books as they were also considered to be among the core races of Dark Sun. Another race I strongly suspect we will see in PHB3 is the Elan as it was in both the 3rd edition Psionics and Dark Sun.
As for the current discussion of how sub-optimal Minitour casters are, I was wondering how bad a Warforged Chaos or Storm Sorcerer would be? Personally I've been thinking about creating one with the magic source refluffed to be the caused by the character's constantly tinkering with itself (electrical attacks coming from wires piercing the wooden skin, etc) but figured that it would be too sub-optimal to be a viable character. Oh well, it was just a thought.
Unlikely. Shifters have two similar stat blocks but only a single culture, so they count as a single race. The githyanki and githzerai have distinctly different stat blocks and more importantly entirely different cultures (they don't even live on the same plain). The giths are related races but are as different as elves and eladrin, so they are just as likely to have separate racial entries.
Not really. They're not nearly different enough to warrant two complete separate sections. Most 'Zerai and 'Yanki will probably live in the material world monasteries or at sea, respectively. Some 'Zerai will live in monasteries in the Elemental Chaos, and some 'Yanki will travel the astral sea. As for stats...
Maybe Divine could feature the Ur-Priest or something, someone who steals their power from the gods instead of being granted it? This could cause some tension with other divine classes, but if they made it so their diety had to be the opposite alignment to them (eg Good character would draw from evil god) it could work... much as I dislike alignment restrictions. Don't see what else they could really do for Divine or Primal, but I'm sure that's what people said about Divine before the Invoker and Avenger came out, so...Oh, and on the Githyanki/Githzerai debate, I agree that it's possible that the Githyanki won't be included due to their "evil only" flavour, but isn't that also true of the Drow? Admittabley the Drow had Drizzt going for them, but all cliches have to start somewhere, right? ;)
Oh, and on the Githyanki/Githzerai debate, I agree that it's possible that the Githyanki won't be included due to their "evil only" flavour, but isn't that also true of the Drow? Admittabley the Drow had Drizzt going for them, but all cliches have to start somewhere, right? ;)
Well Driz'zt is the most famous example (and one of the first written about in a novel). But even before Driz'zt there were good drow though usually not prominently featured anywhere. By the end of 3e there was also Elistraee and the and the redeemed drow who reverted back to dark elves (but in 4e are statted and called drow still). The key is that drow were elves who were led into evil by Lolth and cursed by Corellon while the orcs and githyanki have always been evil as long as they've been their race (githyanki started off as humans but the illithids altered them to such a degree they're now their own race), the less likely to be evil gith left and became the githzerai and over milenia have evolved further apart from each other in outlook, culture, and appearance. Same thing as the dwarf and duergar in 4e where the breeding with devils made the duergar a disctinct enough subrace to get their own racial writeup (note the MM2 monster stats still gives them a subtype of dwarf but also of devil).
Well Driz'zt is the most famous example (and one of the first written about in a novel). But even before Driz'zt there were good drow though usually not prominently featured anywhere. By the end of 3e there was also Elistraee and the and the redeemed drow who reverted back to dark elves (but in 4e are statted and called drow still). The key is that drow were elves who were led into evil by Lolth and cursed by Corellon while the orcs and githyanki have always been evil as long as they've been their race (githyanki started off as humans but the illithids altered them to such a degree they're now their own race), the less likely to be evil gith left and became the githzerai and over milenia have evolved further apart from each other in outlook, culture, and appearance. Same thing as the dwarf and duergar in 4e where the breeding with devils made the duergar a disctinct enough subrace to get their own racial writeup (note the MM2 monster stats still gives them a subtype of dwarf but also of devil).
To be fair, just looking in the Monster Manual Githyanki and Drow culture seems to be described to be around equally vile (though the Githyanki lore is a bit more in volume). Actually there are a surprisingly large number of parralels: both societies are largely evil, both are more or less theocracies (if you count the Lich Queen as a god, which though probably not technically correct the Githyanki would certainly think so), and both involved a sort of fall from the grace. That said, since the Forgotten Realms player guide didn't come out too long after 4es intital release, odds are the designers just wanted to keep all the "good drow' lore in the one book instead of cluttering the MM.
Still, there seems a chance that the Githyanki culture could spawn good aligned rebels almost as easily as the Drow culture could... although I admit that the good drow has actually occured before in 3e while making a similar situation for the Githyanki would mean whole new lore.
Personally, I'm still hoping Githyanki get a write up in the PH3 despite the difficulties, but then again I'm a bit of a Githyanki fan. I like the idea of playing a xenophobic Githyanki exile for some reason
Never did I think we'd see the return of Divine and Primal. I was thinking possibly Primal (I felt guaranteed due to wilden) and Martial or Primal and Arcane (produce 1 or 2 more arcane classes and then you get almost full Power book worth of new material).
I'm not angry or disappointed they've done this. I'm playing a Warden whose a bucketload of fun and I definitely have character concepts for the rest of the primal classes. I've also got character concepts for an invoker, a paladin and an avenger, so I definitely don't mind additional divine classes either.
It seems, we know 3 of the races for PHB3. Minotaur, Githzerai, and Wilden. One class is confirmed, the monk.
Good observation. I'd say the best we can hope for is an additional 2 races, and one of those might be Githyanki (considering they live in the Astral Sea a godless Divine class may be in the offing). Personally I think they should offer an additional race to compensate for the fact that this will be the third time we've paid for a Minotaur, but I doubt we'll get it.
You poor suckers will buy this piece of extortionist crap anyway, because it's got psionics in it. And that's new and shiny so you gotta own it, right?
Nice troll, but incorrect at least in my case. I'm starting a home campaign in Eberron because I've DM'd nothing but LFR in 4th ed and I'd like to try my hand at a more open and world-changing campaign. Psionics is a big draw to what I like in Eberron (nothing gets you quite so paranoid as having psychics able to read your mind from afar) and I've been waiting for it since the beginning of 4th ed.
So no, I'm not chasing the latest apple offered by WotC (I don't have Manual of the Planes, Draconomicon, Open Grave or Arcane Power).
Wow, am I the only person who is upset that Divine is getting a 3rd PH before Martial gets its second?
Probably. Martial has the same number of classes as divine. How often a power source appears really isn't important.
At this point, I'm guessing we'll see at least one or two reformed Ki classes besides the monk.
With 2 other power sources in PHB3 along with Psionics, I'm doubtful we'll see 5 psionic classes. So the only way (IMO) we'll see a Soulknife is if it becomes Divine (striker/defender) or becomes a psionic defender.
What this makes me guess is that the 2010 campaign setting will be Dark Sun or Dragonlance. Psionics for Dark sun, but minotaurs where a "civilized" race in Dragonlance.
Interesting point. Although gith do have a place within Dark Sun too.
could someone please explain to me just why the Gith need to be treated as two separate races mechanically? I gather the yanki and zerai live in the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea respectively, but they look almost exactly the same to me at face value. What warrants filling in two race slots where one 'Gith' race might do?
Might as well ask why eladrin and elves need separate write-ups.
Still, there seems a chance that the Githyanki culture could spawn good aligned rebels almost as easily as the Drow culture could... although I admit that the good drow has actually occured before in 3e while making a similar situation for the Githyanki would mean whole new lore.
Personally, I'm still hoping Githyanki get a write up in the PH3 despite the difficulties, but then again I'm a bit of a Githyanki fan. I like the idea of playing a xenophobic Githyanki exile for some reason
And I think new Lore would be cool.
Also I don't think that the Psionic will as much of a fan favoret as everyone is making them out to be for one simple fact... The classes will be BALANCED! People loved the Psionic classes so much because they were overed powered compaired to the other classes at the time and still mostly are.
Even without their racial abilities a minotaur is not actually penalized, thus they are perfectly viable in any class+build.
Effectively not having any racial features at all is a penalty.
A minotaur that hasn't taken the appropriate feat is still totally capable of making use of his racial abilities, he just hasn't yet had the opportunity (feat opportunity that is) to do so.
That's a completely unreasonable comparison. Being put in a situation is not the same as taking a feat. When you take a feat, you deny yourself other opportunities. If you could just have whatever feats you wanted and however many of them you wanted, it wouldn't be a problem. Becoming bloodied, however, is not an option you select at the exclusion of other options. There is no opportunity cost for being put in a situation where you're bloodied.
As for the current discussion of how sub-optimal Minitour casters are, I was wondering how bad a Warforged Chaos or Storm Sorcerer would be? Personally I've been thinking about creating one with the magic source refluffed to be the caused by the character's constantly tinkering with itself (electrical attacks coming from wires piercing the wooden skin, etc) but figured that it would be too sub-optimal to be a viable character. Oh well, it was just a thought.
Warforged Storm or Chaos Sorcerer is perfectly reasonable. You don't get any ability boost help, but all of your other racial features certainly benefit you. Bonus to saving throws vs ongoing damage, taking 10 on death saving throws, a racial power to gain temporary HP, a +1 bonus to Will Defense, and everything else they get is useful to just about everybody.
And I think new Lore would be cool.
I agree, new lore would be great, though I hope they still keep some of the "evil" Githyanki's personality quirks for the PC write up. I always like how they treat their equipment better than their companions
Personally I would really like to see what else Wizard was up their collective sleaves to give us for Divine and Primal powers.
Also I don't think that the Psionic will as much of a fan favoret as everyone is making them out to be for one simple fact... The classes will be BALANCED! People loved the Psionic classes so much because they were overed powered compaired to the other classes at the time and still mostly are.
I don't have much experience in psiconics, and you're probably right to an extent, but I was under the impression that a lot of people were looking forward to psiconics because of the potention pseudo-science angle and because they like the idea of the classes being built around powers of the mind..
As for Githyanki, they should be in PH3 for one simple reason - they have more reason than any other race, even the Githzerai, to be opponents of of the Far Realms.
Long before WotC decided to refluff the Killoren as Wilden and make them opponents of the Far Realms, and by long before I mean decades, Githyanki were (and according to MM1 still are) the only race in all of D&D that organizes large scale operations to hunt down and kill Illithid and their allies. It's an active part of their culture, almost like mandatory military service in some countries. The Githzerai do hunt Illithid, but the hunters are generally independent and small-scale.
And Illithid = Aberrations = Far Realms
Personally I would really like to see what else Wizard was up their collective sleaves to give us for Divine and Primal powers.
Also I don't think that the Psionic will as much of a fan favoret as everyone is making them out to be for one simple fact... The classes will be BALANCED! People loved the Psionic classes so much because they were overed powered compaired to the other classes at the time and still mostly are.
Psionics were more balanced than arcane/divine magic in 3.xE.
More Divine and Primal? I would have preferred seeing some Shadow, Elemental, or something else, but I was pleasantly surprised with the Avenger, Shaman, and Warden classes.
At least we aren't getting more Arcane casters to tromp all over everyone else's territory.
Psionics were more balanced than arcane/divine magic in 3.xE.
QFT
I think I know what everybody wants for the 4th race in the PHB3. The Illithid!
Now just toss one in a party with a Githzerai, that's comedy gold right there :D
I think I know what everybody wants for the 4th race in the PHB3. The Illithid!
You kid, but an illithid victim who managed to overpower the illithid's mind and regain control of its body would be an extremely popular PC race. Especially if they added illithid-only feats for each PC race (so you can take the feat and be a Minotaur-Illithid or take another feat instead and be an Eladrin-Illithid).
Although it would require the slight fluff tweak that lets victims regain control over their body ;)
You kid, but an illithid victim who managed to overpower the illithid's mind and regain control of its body would be an extremely popular PC race. Especially if they added illithid-only feats for each PC race (so you can take the feat and be a Minotaur-Illithid or take another feat instead and be an Eladrin-Illithid).
Although it would require the slight fluff tweak that lets victims regain control over their body ;)
ACTUALLY, it wouldn't require a tweak. What you describe is what Illithids call the "Adversary".
I'll give you an excerpt from an old book I have called "the Illithiad"
"The Adversary was an illithid lost to itself; a partial personality of uncommon strength consumed a mind flayer's personality and sought to overthrow all illithids through the innocent guise of a fellow mind flayer. Despite its apparent popularity as a story told to frighten young-adult mid flayers, the Adversary legend remains just that; no sage has ever catalogued the existence of such a being."
Also, a Minotaur likely would be considered incompatible for Ceremorphosis. they're too large. Besides, after Ceremorphosis is complete they look NOTHING like the thrall's previous race, so I'd say a feat would be the wrong way to go about it, better to make it a full blown race.
Also it's worth pointing out, the Adversary isn't the only potential explanation for playable Illithids. For example, Illithids that work towards arcane prowess rather than Psionic power are shunned and often killed and small communities of such Illithids that pursue arcane powers form from Illithids that have managed to get away from their old group (considered deviants by normal Illithids :P). Now, if this exists, is it really so impossible that some Illithids may actually be not evil? There's some clear indications of Illithids are are not the norm among their society. In fact, I'd say that playable Illithids make more potential sense than playable Drow (who are only playable because of 1 single rebellious Drow named Drizzt).
In fact, I'd say that playable Illithids make more potential sense than playable Drow (who are only playable because of 1 single rebellious Drow named Drizzt).
Not true. Drizzt is the most well known, but there are plenty of good or neutral drow, especially in FR. My favorite being Jarlaxle, who is blatantly Chaotic Neutral/Unaligned (no matter how many stat blocks wrote him up as CE in 3e
). Plus the drow of Eberron who are very different from FR drow.I don't see Ithillids or freed thralls as a high possibility for the PHB3... but it would be really cool if they turned out to be in it. Even if they decided to take a "half-ithillid" approach and call them squidlings or something :D
And had I said primal or divine anything was going to be in the PH3 a week ago what would you have said? Probably something as blunt and as potentially incorrect. I think its likely that we don't see many new classes, I personally have a hard time beliving they could make another 2 divine and 2 primal classes, i certainly can't think of any that don't heavily step on the toes of another class or are poor and gimmicky (ie doing something like taking away a druids wild shape giving it an animal companion and calling it a new class). I think options are more likely to be honest but some people don't want to accept WotC will do stupid stuff just to make money.
The thing is, it's not like i'm saying this jsut because I made it up, WotC have stated it.
I just spent the last few minutes trying to come up with what they could possibly do for more primal classes.... I came up with guy who burrows, guy who plants things, and hippie. ....... and professional landscaper.
You forgot Climate Change Warrior.
Actually in the Complete Psychic book I believe there was an illithid heritage prestige class called the flayerspawn psychic that came complete with a bunch of feats to give the character even more illithid characteristics like eating brains, etc.
And it was reviled. It was an absolute abortion. Bad concept, badly written, badly edited.
Illithids reproduce by putting a larva in your ear which EATS YOUR BRAIN. There's nothing to resist, no connection. It learns what you knew by DIGESTING YOU. You can't resist, because you're already dead!
Add to that the complete lack of understandable emotions (Aberrations), the society that results in any individual showing non-typical thought being killed and/or eaten, and the fact that they have too eat sentient brains to live.
Illithid as Heros? Not a good idea.
With 2 other power sources in PHB3 along with Psionics, I'm doubtful we'll see 5 psionic classes. So the only way (IMO) we'll see a Soulknife is if it becomes Divine (striker/defender) or becomes a psionic defender.
I'm still a supporter that with monk now a psionic class soulknife will simply be an alternate build for monks in Psionic Power. Other than their distinctive weapon soulkinves really don't have anything else that sets them apart from monk, even less so now that monks are psionic. Replace the monk's unarmed combat class feature with some kind of soulblade class feature and the transformation is basically complete.
I'm still a supporter that with monk now a psionic class soulknife will simply be an alternate build for monks in Psionic Power. Other than their distinctive weapon soulkinves really don't have anything else that sets them apart from monk, even less so now that monks are psionic. Replace the monk's unarmed combat class feature with some kind of soulblade class feature and the transformation is basically complete.
Heeeyy...good idea! I think I like.
Psylocke, anyone?What if you only eat bad guy brains?? ;)
Having just recently rewatched the Three Kings saga of YuYu Hakusho, where the main protagonist offers to go get some bad people for his starving demonic "father" to eat, this statement actually has some nice resonance with me at the moment.
I'm still a supporter that with monk now a psionic class soulknife will simply be an alternate build for monks in Psionic Power. Other than their distinctive weapon soulkinves really don't have anything else that sets them apart from monk, even less so now that monks are psionic. Replace the monk's unarmed combat class feature with some kind of soulblade class feature and the transformation is basically complete.
Naah. Soulknife will become a feat allowing the possessor to create a weapon they're proficient with, with enhancements drawn from thier implement.
That, or a feat that grants monks' unarmed attacks weapon-type keywords.
That, or a feat that grants monks' unarmed attacks weapon-type keywords.
This.
Naah. Soulknife will become a feat allowing the possessor to create a weapon they're proficient with, with enhancements drawn from thier implement.
That, or a feat that grants monks' unarmed attacks weapon-type keywords.
Alternate class feature or feat, close enough to the same for my tastes either way.
Maybe we should all arrange to hate a playtest coming up. Just for the novelty of it. I suggest the first Divine class, whatever it is. Just saying, it would be worth a few laughs.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
What if you only eat bad guy brains?? ;)
Or heck, why not animal brains? Not like anybody else in your party is going to eat it.
That, or a feat that grants monks' unarmed attacks weapon-type keywords.
The other night, I was hypothesizing about a feat that might let a monk change his unarmed strikes to the Hammer group (closed fists), light blades ('karate chop'/knifehand) or spears ('poke'/spearhand), as a swift action.
You know what I would LOVE to see sometime? A playtest of a class that is UNIVERSALLY hated. It would be the funniest thing in the world to watch WotC scramble backwards from a class design that they thought was great!
Maybe we should all arrange to hate a playtest coming up. Just for the novelty of it. I suggest the first Divine class, whatever it is. Just saying, it would be worth a few laughs.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
There will be someone, somewhere, who likes it. Maybe just that one guy ...
At least we aren't getting more Arcane casters to tromp all over everyone else's territory.
Heck yeah! There's already too much of them as it is.
Mindflayer
+2 int +2 of your choice of the previous creature whose body you took over
+2 Arcana +2 Bluff
Languages: Common, Deep Speech, Gibberish
Origin: you are descended from squid people, for all effects relating to origin you are considered a squid person creature
Mindflayer Weapon Proficiency: you gain proficiency with PEOPLES' MINDS
Intellidar: you know where the nearest intelligent creature is (ALWAYS)
Squidish weakness: you gain a -2 penalty on checks against fear effects relating to people tapping on glass
Mindflayer's needs: you need to eat brains. If you do not feast on brains every 36 hours or are left out in the sun for too long (4 hours) you shrivel
Mindflayer encounter power- Spawnlings
flavor text- you insert small larvae into your allies' ears, when they disobey your orders their brains get shocked
Target: a sleeping or helpless creature
attack: int+5, cha+5, wis+5, or con+5 vs. Will
effect: you insert small larvae into the creature's body, you can then give them telepathic commands, if they choose not to, they suffer 1d4 lightning and psychic damage (no save). if the creature stays under this effect for 48 hours, it is dominated (no save)
Special: this power has infinate duration, you can only dominate 10 targets
Level 11: 100 targets
Level 21: 1000 targets
Level 30: everyone ever
Or heck, why not animal brains? Not like anybody else in your party is going to eat it.
They actually need to eat 1 brain from a sentient creature per month else they begin to starve.
Crystix, first off that's completely biased. Secondly, it's certainly possible to make a balanced Illithid race.
Crystix, first off that's completely biased. Secondly, it's certainly possible to make a balanced Illithid race.
biased? The point I'm trying to make is that to right off the bat try to make a balanced, (remember now, some people here are talking about fullblooded illithids) playable race that can also do justice to the lore and qualities of the illithid is actually quite hard. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm saying that WOTC could be blamed for making it either OP or making it's mechanics not fit the fluff. Also imagine how much possible Illithid racials could mess with general power rules and possibly mess with rules about allies and the such. I imagine the same problems for Beholder and Dragon characters. But if the team at WOTC can create a playable Illithid race, or a Illithid deviant race, I would be one of the first up to bat to play one. To be clear, with my earliar post I was NOT attacking the idea, just saying that right off the bat a full Illithid write up is not likely because they have to put A LOT of thought into mechanics.
I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking it.
I'm not a flayer hater :coolcthul
Personally, I like WotC republishing the successful classes and races from Dragon Magazine into the PHs.
Dragon Magazine represents experimental designs, followed by reallife playtesting and critique, to improve its flavor and mechanics. Afterward, the PHs collect the cream of the crop and makes it part of the D&D canon. Its a healthy process.
Right now 4e is still new, so most of the material in Dragon Magazine is already canon from 3e that needs to be translated into 4e, and all of it is done by WotC designers. But later, after the bulk the traditional material crosses over, Dragon can start to publish material from players at large, which is more experimental and niche-themed, most of which wont make the PH canon. At that time, Dragon subscribers will get their special content that wont be published elsewhere (except for certain design concepts that become very popular and well designed).
This.
I must say it again, for those that miss/ignore it. New classes and Races are only printed in PHB's and Settings Player Guides. They won't make the Dragon Annual.
Minotaur (the other race on the cover) while traditionally evil, near mindless brutes got a 'facelift' due to Dragonlance and became more than a 1 dimensional monster-to-slay. They even became known to be heroic and good, not all evil (though in DL they were more like imperial Rome trying to expand rather than out and out evil). They're presence in PH3 shows a bit of this carry over from DL and puts the minotaur more in an 'antagonist' role rather than 'monster' role.
So, they are the Klingon's of the D&D world. That is much better than the Orcs.
Psionics were more balanced than arcane/divine magic in 3.xE.
please.
Taken by itself, the Psionics system was a balanced, fair system.
Using it with the rest of the D&D in the previous edition, Psionics had a distinct advantage over the Fire and Forget or the Limited Known spells of the casters. The Mana Rules in the UA didn't even things out much, but made the Wizard and the Sorcerer even closer to being the same than before.
The only way to support your claim is if you completely replaced Magic with Psionics.
please.
Taken by itself, the Psionics system was a balanced, fair system.
Using it with the rest of the D&D in the previous edition, Psionics had a distinct advantage over the Fire and Forget or the Limited Known spells of the casters. The Mana Rules in the UA didn't even things out much, but made the Wizard and the Sorcerer even closer to being the same than before.
The only way to support your claim is if you completely replaced Magic with Psionics.
Are you serious?
I think we need to dig up those old "Myth: Psyonics is broken" threads, because there's seriously almost nothing you can do with psionics that you can't do better with arcane or divine magic, especially the latter.
In fact, that Mana rules in UA weakened the arcane casters. :P
This isn't to say we may not see a Half-Illithid, though I thought one of the themes of 4E was to eliminate the children of **** and other less palatable means of conception.
As for other races we could see in adition to the Githyanki, Githzerai and Minotaurs... Well the Raptorans could be updated as well as the duergar (though they are more infernal based now)... Dromites and Elans could be included, though the Elan treads on the Deva's themes a little too much. Thri-Keen are a popular race...
So what's that 6 races (not counting the Duergar and the Elan). Maybe there will be a more aberrant race added in (like a Half-Illithid) and maybe the killoren for a more primal race... That would be 8
if a playable Illithid still needs to eat sentient race's brains for sustenance then it will not be a PHB race. D&D is all about HEROES no and there's nothing truly heroic about a race that must kill humans to survive, regardless of how the popular races like the Vampire have become.
This isn't to say we may not see a Half-Illithid, though I thought one of the themes of 4E was to eliminate the children of **** and other less palatable means of conception.
As for other races we could see in adition to the Githyanki, Githzerai and Minotaurs... Well the Raptorans could be updated as well as the duergar (though they are more infernal based now)... Dromites and Elans could be included, though the Elan treads on the Deva's themes a little too much. Thri-Keen are a popular race...
I have to agree that if the Ithillid (or an offshoot) do appear in the PHB3, they won't have to eat brains to survive. It is a little villainous for a heroic fantasy, plus it could prove problematic from both a mechanical and part perspective. Just what constitutes a sentient creature that the Ithillid could eat the brain of? If the party was stuck fighting constructs for a month, would the PC have to devour the brains of their own part to survive?
As for the half-Ithillid or similar, I don't think it needs to necessarily be **** or anything... maybe it's just a group of humans who were cursed by the Far Realm in a similar way to how the Tiefilings made a pact with Devils?
Also, I don't think we'll be seing the Raptorians in a PHB anytime soon, at least without a major face lift: at-will flight is just to powerful in 4e to justify a race that starts off with wings at first level.
Are you serious?
I think we need to dig up those old "Myth: Psyonics is broken" threads, because there's seriously almost nothing you can do with psionics that you can't do better with arcane or divine magic, especially the latter.
In fact, that Mana rules in UA weakened the arcane casters. :P
Oh, I agree that the Wizard had some powerful spells in later levels. Surviving to those levels was the problem. My main point was that the PP gave the Psionic characters more choices and could out last the forgetful Mage.
]My main point was that the PP gave the Psionic characters more choices and could out last the forgetful Mage.
How so? It's exactly because of the PP system that magic is so much better than psionics. See, arcane and divine spells all scale by default, without having to take up higher and higher level spell slots. That is in fact why the Mana system in UA was a nerf to the arcane casters; to cast Magic Missile as a 9th level caster, you had to spend the amount of MP you would normally spend on a 5th level spell instead of just spending a 1st level spell slot. When you need to spend the equivalent of a 5th level spell to pull off what the other guy can do with the equivalent of a 1st level spell, guess who's gonna last longer? :P
The PP system is different than the Vancian system, yes, and it does have some advantages, but many people don't see its disadvantages, which is why they very erroneously think psionics were overpowered.
It wasn't balanced at any rate, one way or the other.
What it did do is allow them to pick and choose what to use at any given time, something that the wizard wasn't able to do, and had more choices than the lowly Sorcerer.
It wasn't balanced at any rate, one way or the other.
Completely untrue.
Being able to cast without preparation is something the Sorcerer already got to do, and it's widely recognized that the Sorcerer is much weaker than the Wizard is. Furthermore, the Psion most certainly does not have more choices than the sorcerer.
At first level, the Psion has 3 powers known and 2 base PP while the Sorcerer has 6 spells known 3 1st level spell slots base, converted to MP as 3 base. At tenth level, the Psion has 21 powers known and 88 base PP while the Sorcerer has 24 spells known and converted base MP of 120. At twentieth level, the Psion has 36 powers known and 343 base PP while the Sorcerer has 43 spells known and converted base MP of 486.
Now, what the Psion does have over the Sorcerer is versatility in how PP can be used in comparison to MP, but hey, Psion have to have something going for them or else there would be no point in their existence. "It gets to do something that another class doesn't" is not good enough alone to prove that something is overpowered.
The Sorcerer was in fact generally viewed as more powerful than the Psion mostly because when actually look at individual powers and spells, you'll find that spells are generally better and that there are a lot more of them out there to pick from.
I think you need to take a look at this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=331253
Or invent a DIFFERENT Aberrant race that would be balanced enough for a PC write up.
Daelkyr-halfblood would be awesome, though they would need a more interesting/complicated background and a name-change.
Actually, i could imagine a symbiont set of feats that would work like a combination of the familiar feat and a multiclass-only class like Spellscarred. Basically, you would take the Symbiosis feat and pick a symbiont with active/passive benefits, like a familiar, then you would have access to the multiclass feats to pick up Symbiont class powers.
So what's that 6 races (not counting the Duergar and the Elan). Maybe there will be a more aberrant race added in (like a Half-Illithid) and maybe the killoren for a more primal race... That would be 8
Actually the killoren was the basis for the wilden race that has been playtested so they are already in the PH3 just with a new name and updated PoL fluff and rebalanced for 4e.
I have to agree that if the Ithillid (or an offshoot) do appear in the PHB3, they won't have to eat brains to survive. It is a little villainous for a heroic fantasy, plus it could prove problematic from both a mechanical and part perspective. Just what constitutes a sentient creature that the Ithillid could eat the brain of? If the party was stuck fighting constructs for a month, would the PC have to devour the brains of their own part to survive?
As for the half-Ithillid or similar, I don't think it needs to necessarily be **** or anything... maybe it's just a group of humans who were cursed by the Far Realm in a similar way to how the Tiefilings made a pact with Devils?
Also, I don't think we'll be seing the Raptorians in a PHB anytime soon, at least without a major face lift: at-will flight is just to powerful in 4e to justify a race that starts off with wings at first level.
It's not like the brains necessarily need to be fresh. They could be preserved brains. Really, how is it any different from some PC that is stuck in the desert for a month and runs out of rations?
Besides, Illithids can go 4 months without eating a sentient brain. Just after 1 month they start getting negative effects from the starvation.
It's not like the brains necessarily need to be fresh. They could be preserved brains. Really, how is it any different from some PC that is stuck in the desert for a month and runs out of rations?
Besides, Illithids can go 4 months without eating a sentient brain. Just after 1 month they start getting negative effects from the starvation.
For some reason I find the idea of disembowling somebodies skull, scooping out their brain, pickling it, and carrying it around in case you get hungry a little viler than just sucking them out... and it isn't any different from rations, but it's effectively forcing the PC to have a seperate ration pool to the rest of the party, or if Ithillids need to eat more than just brains, forcing them to eat more than the rest of the party. What's more I doubt they have brains sitting on grocery store shelves, so they have to go out of their way just to get a meal.
Its easy to see "hobgolbin raised by a benevolent culture" without any trouble. Its damn hard to spin "race that eats people's brains" into a standard PC option.
Anyways, how is it any different from any other kind of meat?
Anyways, they are quite proficient at extracting the brains themselves, no need to buy brains. You fight a goblin? Guess what there's a brain. You fight an Orc? Guess what, there's a brain.
It's perfectly possible to have an Illithid eat brains but never eat the brain of somebody who isn't evil.
I think that if it takes some sort of extra-special work around to let a creature join a party with good PCs, then that creature is probably not going to show up as a character race.
Its easy to see "hobgolbin raised by a benevolent culture" without any trouble. Its damn hard to spin "race that eats people's brains" into a standard PC option.
Takes no extra work than a Drow.
Anyways, I think you're too hung up on the whole brain eating thing. Seriously, an Illithid can go it's whole life without snacking on a human's brain. They only require 1 brain from a sentient race each month. Sentient means any number of monster races.
edit:
By the way, I would never have brought this up if not for the Drow being playable. Also if the Githyanki end up as playable, that further strengthens my want for Illithid as the Githyanki are pretty bloody bad in their own right.
What's more, what if the DM wants to run a campaign without dozens of orcs and goblins running around? What if they want to run a zombiegeddon campaign, for instance? It's quite possible that the Ithillid wouldn't run into other intelligent races that weren't just panicked survivors trying to withstand the zombie horde for months at a time. This kind of scenario isn't common, per say, but no race should be impossible to play in a given campaign merely due to it's mechanics.
Really, how is it different from playing a campaign that is predominantly in the Feywild and you have a drow on your team? How would you deal with visiting an Eladarin city?
Also, eating the body of your enemy as long as said enemy is of a different race from you, it isn't overly an evil act. It's not cannibalism. It's already dead. It may be a bit icky but it isn't exactly evil.
It's not like the brains necessarily need to be fresh. They could be preserved brains. Really, how is it any different from some PC that is stuck in the desert for a month and runs out of rations?
Besides, Illithids can go 4 months without eating a sentient brain. Just after 1 month they start getting negative effects from the starvation.
Has it even been established that Illitheds have to eat brains for sustenance in 4e? It would seem to me that an easy fix would be that Illithids only need to eat brains in order to maintain the superior abilities that they have as monsters, thus both eliminating the need to feed on brains and explaining the reduced power f the PC race all in one fell swoop.
That isn't really that good an example. An evil party would probably be in trouble entering an Eladrin city anyway, if they had a reputation, and if it was a good aligned drow they'd probably welcome their long lost and redeemed cousin back with open arms.
Also, I'd say that when it comes to canabalism, Race is rather more like ethnicity to species. I'd still call a dwarf eating an elf canaballism, for instance. Where to draw the line is a little complex, but Mind Flayers, if they were turned into a PC race, would probably still be committing an evil act if it sucked the brains out of a human because it was hungry.
Has it even been established that Illitheds have to eat brains for sustenance in 4e? It would seem to me that an easy fix would be that Illithids only need to eat brains in order to maintain the superior abilities that they have as monsters, thus both eliminating the need to feed on brains and explaining the reduced power f the PC race all in one fell swoop.
That's a great solution, and I'd be happy to have such an Ithillid written up as a PC race
. Assuming some of them didn't start eating brains to try and regrain their abilities or something :PTakes no extra work than a Drow.
Anyways, I think you're too hung up on the whole brain eating thing. Seriously, an Illithid can go it's whole life without snacking on a human's brain. They only require 1 brain from a sentient race each month. Sentient means any number of monster races.
With a drow all you have to do is say that the individual is from the surface, raised by a good culture, went against drow society, whatever... It doesn't take any work since they have the ability to live a "normal" lifestyle like anyone else.
With an illithid though, we have to explain to all the good PCs why good guys eat the brains of sentient people. Every time someone wants to play an illithid in a good game people have to jump through hoops to make it work with other good-aligned characters. Unless we just throw out the existing fluff, this is going to be a morality issue in any good campaign.
I'm all for moral quandries, but if someone wants to play a good PC, and is forced to eat the brains of a random pedestrian because they thought squid people were cool, I think they'd feel a little jipped.
Who says he would be forced to eat random pedestrians? Could be he'd resort to eating the brain of somebody he caught mugging some other person, or something like that. You could play it up as being distasteful but not evil.
That isn't really that good an example. An evil party would probably be in trouble entering an Eladrin city anyway, if they had a reputation, and if it was a good aligned drow they'd probably welcome their long lost and redeemed cousin back with open arms.
Who said anything about an evil party? I'm talking about a Drow in a good party. Even if the party is good, that's a Drow they have with them and that's going to be tough to explain. Also, based on what I've read they wouldn't welcome them with open arms. While the Eladrin want to rejoin the elf races I doubt that extends to just individual Drow who have gotten away from their society. Everything I've read regarding Drow in novels and such harp on that fact. Look at Drizzt, no matter how many good deeds he does, he's still persecuted for being a Drow. He can never get away from what he is.
Also, I'd say that when it comes to canabalism, Race is rather more like ethnicity to species. I'd still call a dwarf eating an elf canaballism, for instance. Where to draw the line is a little complex, but Mind Flayers, if they were turned into a PC race, would probably still be committing an evil act if it sucked the brains out of a human because it was hungry.
I'd say it would totally depend on the manner in which they did it. For instance, say you were fighting against an evil Warlock and your party killed it. I don't see how it's at all evil for the Illithid to go and eat that dead human Warlocks brain. Now eating some kind Paladin's brain, even if they're dead, I can see how that could be considered an evil act since it's desecrating a dead body. However, doing that to a villain is no worse than stealing his stuff. He was evil and did evil acts, nothing wrong with screwing with his corpse.
With a drow all you have to do is say that the individual is from the surface, raised by a good culture, went against drow society, whatever... It doesn't take any work since they have the ability to live a "normal" lifestyle like anyone else.
Except they CAN'T live a normal life like anyone else. They will spend the rest of their life being persecuted for being a Drow.
With an illithid though, we have to explain to all the good PCs why good guys eat the brains of sentient people. Every time someone wants to play an illithid in a good game people have to jump through hoops to make it work with other good-aligned characters. Unless we just throw out the existing fluff, this is going to be a morality issue in any good campaign.
See, you have to jump through similar hoops for playing a good Drow. You have to go and explain how your character is different from nearly every one of your race. With the brain eating department, again if all you do is eat the brain of the evil monsters that happen to be sentient, I don't see that as a problem. It's distasteful, but not evil.
edit:
Has it even been established that Illitheds have to eat brains for sustenance in 4e? It would seem to me that an easy fix would be that Illithids only need to eat brains in order to maintain the superior abilities that they have as monsters, thus both eliminating the need to feed on brains and explaining the reduced power f the PC race all in one fell swoop.
Actually, I'm not sure there is any 4th ed fluff that requires them to eat sentient brains. I only know about the fluff from back in 2nd edition.
Who says he would be forced to eat random pedestrians? Could be he'd resort to eating the brain of somebody he caught mugging some other person, or something like that. You could play it up as being distasteful but not evil.
True, but isn't that a little... harsh? A lot of PC's in that sort of situation like being able to subdue their enemies and sending them to jail, as opposed to giving them a death sentence over a mugging attempt. That particular example strays somewhere in between 'vigilante' and 'murderer'.
Who said anything about an evil party? I'm talking about a Drow in a good party. Even if the party is good, that's a Drow they have with them and that's going to be tough to explain. Also, based on what I've read they wouldn't welcome them with open arms. While the Eladrin want to rejoin the elf races I doubt that extends to just individual Drow who have gotten away from their society. Everything I've read regarding Drow in novels and such harp on that fact. Look at Drizzt, no matter how many good deeds he does, he's still persecuted for being a Drow. He can never get away from what he is.
In 4thed, good aligned drow are far more common, even having their own diety. The racial predjudice apparent in the books written around abouts in 3rd edition is far less apparent.
I'd say it would totally depend on the manner in which they did it. For instance, say you were fighting against an evil Warlock and your party killed it. I don't see how it's at all evil for the Illithid to go and eat that dead human Warlocks brain. Now eating some kind Paladin's brain, even if they're dead, I can see how that could be considered an evil act since it's desecrating a dead body. However, doing that to a villain is no worse than stealing his stuff. He was evil and did evil acts, nothing wrong with screwing with his corpse.
I'm not sure if mutilating a corpse, regardless of the corpses alignment, wouldn't be considered an evil act... killing an evil Warlock is one thing, cutting off his arms and legs then pinning them onto the opposite sockets is quite another. That's an extreme example I admit, but still.
Actually, I'm not sure there is any 4th ed fluff that requires them to eat sentient brains. I only know about the fluff from back in 2nd edition.
Looking up in the 4thed Monster Manual... they still require to eat brains, though it's vague on how often they need to do so. They could require to do so three times a day, depending on the DM
EDIT: Oh, also, the MM says they need to eat LIVING brains. Sucking someones brains out while their still alive seems a little harsh..
Very few, and even farther between... :coolcthul
True, but isn't that a little... harsh? A lot of PC's in that sort of situation like being able to subdue their enemies and sending them to jail, as opposed to giving them a death sentence over a mugging attempt. That particular example strays somewhere in between 'vigilante' and 'murderer'.
The example I was given was regarding in a campaign where your are fighting many undead and the only humans around would be panicked pedestrians. It was an extreme scenario and I gave an answer that could work in said scenario.
In 4thed, good aligned drow are far more common, even having their own diety. The racial predjudice apparent in the books written around abouts in 3rd edition is far less apparent.
Eh, just wait for more books to be written that include Drow. I bet you that prejudice is still around.
I'm not sure if mutilating a corpse, regardless of the corpses alignment, wouldn't be considered an evil act... killing an evil Warlock is one thing, cutting off his arms and legs then pinning them onto the opposite sockets is quite another. That's an extreme example I admit, but still.
Point is that players do things like that all the time. Looting a corpse is considered defiling it and yet players just jump at the opportunity to do just that. Hell, I often see good aligned players go and loot graves.
Looking up in the 4thed Monster Manual... they still require to eat brains, though it's vague on how often they need to do so. They could require to do so three times a day, depending on the DM
EDIT: Oh, also, the MM says they need to eat LIVING brains. Sucking someones brains out while their still alive seems a little harsh..
Eh, easily solved with some very minor refluffing.
The example I was given was regarding in a campaign where your are fighting many undead and the only humans around would be panicked pedestrians. It was an extreme scenario and I gave an answer that could work in said scenario..
Fair enough, my apologies
Eh, just wait for more books to be written that include Drow. I bet you that prejudice is still around..
I don't really consider novels core, and the amount of predjudice about drow would probably differ campaign by campaign. On the other hand, a human seeing a tentacle thing eating another humans brains isn't going to really care if the other human is evil or not. A mind flayer would suffer ten times the fear, hate, and predjudice of the drow, and in the mind flayers case, it would actually be justified.
Point is that players do things like that all the time. Looting a corpse is considered defiling it and yet players just jump at the opportunity to do just that. Hell, I often see good aligned players go and loot graves..
There's a line somwhere between turning a dead enemies pocked over to see if there's any gold in them, and boring into their skull and sucking their brains out. Where exactly it is is a matter of debate.
Eh, easily solved with some very minor refluffing.
But if you're going to refluff Mind Flayers to be a PC race anyway, why not remove brain eating entirely?
Don't get me wrong, I'd be all for having Mind Flayers or Ithillidesque race... I just see too many complications with the brain eating.
There's a line somwhere between turning a dead enemies pocked over to see if there's any gold in them, and boring into their skull and sucking their brains out. Where exactly it is is a matter of debate.
Maybe, but once a creature dies its soul vacates and departs to whatever, if any, afterlife the setting supports. What's left behind is just meat, some might even argue that its a greater wrong to let it go to waste by leaving it to rot.
Maybe, but once a creature dies its soul vacates and departs to whatever, if any, afterlife the setting supports. What's left behind is just meat, some might even argue that its a greater wrong to let it go to waste by leaving it to rot.
Our of curiosity, why are undead considered evil then? I mean, most unded would be binding souls or something I'm sure, but surely there are some creatures made from "meat" that are nothing more than that and some animate magic?
We get the cool look and the only bagage is that sometimes someone thinks you're a Mind Flayer when you're not.
DM: "Before you stands a humanoid figure around 6 feet tall. It's head is an expression of nightmare; it's eyes are two bloated orbs of white, and where it's mouth should be 4 hideous tentacles writh around the head of a helpless orc, whos keening wail speaks of utter torment. With a sickening crack, the figure pulls itself free of the orc, who collapses to the ground, with naught but empty space and glistening ichor where his brain should be. The figure straightens, and turns to face you."
Player 1: "You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?"
Illithid: "Yes. Yes I would."
Our of curiosity, why are undead considered evil then? I mean, most unded would be binding souls or something I'm sure, but surely there are some creatures made from "meat" that are nothing more than that and some animate magic?
Undead are usually evil because they are made by evil casters, or the spells used to create them were written by Orcus.
Being undead no longer defaults to being evil.
Iirc, The raven queen only has a problem with undead creatued this way, not "natural" undead.
Our of curiosity, why are undead considered evil then? I mean, most unded would be binding souls or something I'm sure, but surely there are some creatures made from "meat" that are nothing more than that and some animate magic?
Well to be precise, most involuntary undead are souless. The ones that do have souls are basically ones who chose to become undead(liches) or are turned undead while alive(vampires). Zombies, skeletons, and all other mindless undead have no souls.
As far as I can tell the reason that undead are considered evil is a combination of cultural beliefs and the uncontrollability of the undead. Basically most undead that are created are extremely wild, consuming living beings and acting feral(or end up being completely detatched from the morals of the living).
But sitting back and pondering it, I can actually see a few nifty ideas.
Divine?
Show
Give me a holy archer. Someone who can bind, seal, ward off evil, who's power comes from the philosophical path of the warrior, a devotion to ideals and principles more than a single god. And while we're at it? Make it a defender with a ranged weapon, something mechanically unprecedented, but thematically awesome.
And while you're at it. Give me a squishy leader, a truenamer, a priest. Not one of these "put on my armor and grab my mace" fools. I'm talking scrolls in one hand, holy symbol in another, clothed and cloistered, perfectly pious priesting. Old school support, yo.
Give me a holy archer. Someone who can bind, seal, ward off evil, who's power comes from the philosophical path of the warrior, a devotion to ideals and principles more than a single god. And while we're at it? Make it a defender with a ranged weapon, something mechanically unprecedented, but thematically awesome.
And while you're at it. Give me a squishy leader, a truenamer, a priest. Not one of these "put on my armor and grab my mace" fools. I'm talking scrolls in one hand, holy symbol in another, clothed and cloistered, perfectly pious priesting. Old school support, yo.
Give me a holy archer. Someone who can bind, seal, ward off evil, who's power comes from the philosophical path of the warrior, a devotion to ideals and principles more than a single god. And while we're at it? Make it a defender with a ranged weapon, something mechanically unprecedented, but thematically awesome.
While my first inclination would be for a templar class (divine striker in heavy armor) that serves as the agressive counterpart to the paladin, what you outlined is actulay a pretty cool concept as well.
And while you're at it. Give me a squishy leader, a truenamer, a priest. Not one of these "put on my armor and grab my mace" fools. I'm talking scrolls in one hand, holy symbol in another, clothed and cloistered, perfectly pious priesting. Old school support, yo.
This, so very much this.
Not sure if it should really be divine... but it fits there better than anywhere else, except for perhaps Elemental depending on what they do with it. And Arcane, but I think it's pretty broad as it is :P And in retrospect the reason undead are usually evil even disregarding the whole descreating corpses thing is kind of obvious, thank you :embarrass
Well to be precise, most involuntary undead are souless. The ones that do have souls are basically ones who chose to become undead(liches) or are turned undead while alive(vampires). Zombies, skeletons, and all other mindless undead have no souls.
As far as I can tell the reason that undead are considered evil is a combination of cultural beliefs and the uncontrollability of the undead. Basically most undead that are created are extremely wild, consuming living beings and acting feral(or end up being completely detatched from the morals of the living).
Yup. It's gotten to the point where it's even a cliche in modern vampire fiction - of the civilized, sophisticated vampire that may be a tortured soul, or an anti-hero, or even a ruthless evil bastard, that hunts down and destroys vampires who have become nothing more than mindless beasts enslaved by their hunger because it they threaten vampire existence/food supply/friends.
There's probably a tv trope about it even, but I avoid that place. Mostly because of this one really annoying guy at Newsarama that seems to think that linking Tv Tropes in every single post without offering any sort of explanation as to why he thinks they're relevant is a valid debate tactic.
Name: Summoner
Power Source: Divine
Role: Defender
You summon powerful avatars of your deity to aid you in battle.
The basic model is the beastmaster ranger, with a few differences:
- There are a number of avatar templates to choose from, such as a fire type (ifrit), a lightning type (eagle), and a radiant type (angel). Each avatar template determines one at-will attack, movement modes, defense bonuses, resistances, mark effects and secondary stat
- You can call and dismiss the avatar as a minor action
- You must take a standard action for the avatar to take a standard action
- The avatar can take immediate and opportunity actions at no cost to you
- You can take a move action to move you and the avatar
- The avatar marks enemies on attack
- The avatar is large size
- The attack stat of the avatar depends on your wisdom
- like the druid, you get 3 at-wills. One is a basic ranged attack like eldritch blast, one is a generic avatar attack, and one is from your avatar template
- encounter powers get extra effects based on your avatar template
- You only get 6+ Con healing surges. Your avatar has 1 healing surge per tier.
- Healing bond: When you or the avatar spend a healing surge, both of you heal as if both spent a healing surge
- Your HP per level are equal to wizard (4/lvl)
- Your avatar gets fighter hp (6/lvl)
- feats or PPs let you select a other avatar templates, but you can only summon one avatar at a time
They actually need to eat 1 brain from a sentient creature per month else they begin to starve.
That could very easily be changed.
. An Ur-Priest would be cool too though, no idea what the Primal classes could be though... unless they started including voodoo into the primal power source or something. Which would actually be pretty cool :DWell to be precise, most involuntary undead are souless. The ones that do have souls are basically ones who chose to become undead(liches) or are turned undead while alive(vampires). Zombies, skeletons, and all other mindless undead have no souls.
As far as I can tell the reason that undead are considered evil is a combination of cultural beliefs and the uncontrollability of the undead. Basically most undead that are created are extremely wild, consuming living beings and acting feral(or end up being completely detatched from the morals of the living).
That's also why in 4e most soulless/mindless undead are unaligned not evil. It takes a soul/intelligence to have an alignment in 4e since alignment is a moral choice. While the commoner may see them as evil their actual alignment is unaligned.
That's the way it works with the drow. Cultural biases and past experiences with a race colors someone's view of various races no matter the individuals actual nature.
Good drow don't really have their own god in 4e. In FR the good drow follow various dieties, though Corellon has 'reclaimed' most of them after Elistraee's death, and removed them of the drow curse reverting them to dark elves who have lighter skin, no supernatural draw to faerezz (part of Corellon's curse on the drow to begin with), and no evil. That's why the drow are in the FRPG because the dark elf and drow share the same race writeup though if you put the two together they are visually different enough to tell apart.
Illithid while a 'cool' monster would have more problems with most commoners than a drow and tiefling combined just because of their alien appearance. It'd be worse if they'd ever heard the stories of how illithid behave and what they feed on.
As for cannabilism and eating live/dead brains being evil, that's a cultural concept so it'd vary greatly based on the culture. While it'd be considered evil or at the least repulsive in the default PoL setting that's because the default PoL setting is based around fairly modern concepts of good and evil. There were many cultures that didn't see canablism as evil, at least when done in various situations (fallen enemy in battle, funerary rights of family, etc.) I also don't see eating another sentient beings brain as canabilism if they aren't the same race. I laugh when I hear someone calling some monster a cannibal because it eats human flesh, eating human flesh isn't canabilism unless the eater is also human.
*snip*
So far as I'm concerned, you just won the thread. I'm surprised, but I actually really dig all four of those ideas. Mmmm.
Completely untrue.
Being able to cast without preparation is something the Sorcerer already got to do, and it's widely recognized that the Sorcerer is much weaker than the Wizard is. Furthermore, the Psion most certainly does not have more choices than the sorcerer.
At first level, the Psion has 3 powers known and 2 base PP while the Sorcerer has 6 spells known 3 1st level spell slots base, converted to MP as 3 base. At tenth level, the Psion has 21 powers known and 88 base PP while the Sorcerer has 24 spells known and converted base MP of 120. At twentieth level, the Psion has 36 powers known and 343 base PP while the Sorcerer has 43 spells known and converted base MP of 486.
Now, what the Psion does have over the Sorcerer is versatility in how PP can be used in comparison to MP, but hey, Psion have to have something going for them or else there would be no point in their existence. "It gets to do something that another class doesn't" is not good enough alone to prove that something is overpowered.
The Sorcerer was in fact generally viewed as more powerful than the Psion mostly because when actually look at individual powers and spells, you'll find that spells are generally better and that there are a lot more of them out there to pick from.
I think you need to take a look at this thread:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=331253
"It wasn't balanced at any rate, one way or the other."
I only see the Sorcerer as an alternate form of the wizard, while the Psi classes were using a completely different system. Whichever one was more powerful vs. more versatile, it still agreed that none was balanced compared to the other.
Also keep in mind, the 3.0 version was a complete mess.
I think 4e is the first edition that could get it right, or at least come close, for putting psionics into a fantasy setting. Especially if they get away from sci-fi psychics and keep a fantasy feel to the classes (even if not all the names of powers). It should be a seer, visionary, or oracle rather than a clairvoyant, a monk rather than a psychic warrior, a healer rather than a psychometabolist, etc. At the root they're the same thing, but in 2 and 3e the psionic classes were named and flavored more like sci-fi tropes wedged into a fantasy game. Just like the samurai, assassin, ninja debates names, even just for class recognition, can have a big impact on perception of the class and what it's like.
SUPERNAL, MOTHERF***A! DO YOU SPEAK IT?
I think 4e is the first edition that could get it right, or at least come close, for putting psionics into a fantasy setting. Especially if they get away from sci-fi psychics and keep a fantasy feel to the classes (even if not all the names of powers). It should be a seer, visionary, or oracle rather than a clairvoyant, a monk rather than a psychic warrior, a healer rather than a psychometabolist, etc. At the root they're the same thing, but in 2 and 3e the psionic classes were named and flavored more like sci-fi tropes wedged into a fantasy game.
I think it would be pretty sad if they went out of their way to take away the unique aspects of psionic flavor that make it different and just make it another sort of "generic" form of fantasy magic. It sort of defeats the point of even having psionics if they are just going to make the flavor overlap with what is already in the game (things named "healer" and "oracle", for example).
Just like the samurai, assassin, ninja debates names, even just for class recognition, can have a big impact on perception of the class and what it's like.
Exactly. They shouldn't just give the psionic classes names that sound like they fit right in another power source's line-up. The names of psionics classes and power should be recognizably psionic.
So, what if Illithids in 4e can survive without intelligent brains? Perhaps they can meet their neural nutrition needs by eating animal brains instead? Since their tentacles can't be removed...they should retain some sort of improved grab. But, perhaps the price these unusual illithids pay for taking the moral high-ground is that they lose their mind blast? By not eating sentient brains, they don't die, but their psionic capabilities are reduced...to being roughly the same as any other intelligent creature. Now, WHY such illithids might exist is up to WotC and the players who choose to be one. But I think that's reasonable and viable and keeps them easily balanced without being somehow morally unacceptable or completely ruining them or anything.
Now...before people start with, "But in LoM: tBoA, it clearly states..." that book now means precisely jack. Fluff and mechanics of many races in 4e have been at least mildly, and in many cases significantly, altered. LoM: tBoA is a decent starting point, even usable for the time being in waiting for its 4e counterpart to replace it, but it is itself no longer canon. My previous suggestion is not only viable, it follows the spirit of 4e where nothing is ALWAYS true. There are good chromatic dragons, and there will be evil metallic dragons...rare though they might be. There could even be good demons and devils, though they haven't been suggested, there's nothing of any sort at all, let alone mechanically, that forbids it.
I'm not saying they WILL make Illithids a race...nor that they necessarily should. But it CAN be done with far less effort and difficult than some would have everyone believe. Provided, of course, that people can let go of what is now an irrelevant book. If it were to happen, I would probably welcome the addition as something interesting and enjoyable to play once in a while.
I think it would be pretty sad if they went out of their way to take away the unique aspects of psionic flavor that make it different and just make it another sort of "generic" form of fantasy magic. It sort of defeats the point of even having psionics if they are just going to make the flavor overlap with what is already in the game (things named "healer" and "oracle", for example).
Exactly. They shouldn't just give the psionic classes names that sound like they fit right in another power source's line-up. The names of psionics classes and power should be recognizably psionic.
But what seperates the power sources now has more to do with the mechanics and fluff rather than the names. A barbarian could easily be martial excpet they flavor them to fit Primal. A bard doesn't have to be Arcane but they flavored them that way. I'm not saying to make psionics an arcane clone, the fact that I always thought monk should be psionic is point enough to show that. I think psionics flavor has more to do with the nature of the powers than the name of the classes.
True healer is a bad class name since that's been sort of the leader role to a degree, and Divine as well. I was just coming up with quick examples of the same class/power functions with a more fantasy-themed class name. Most of the people I've seen that don't like psionics is because it's very sci-fi feeling with the class names and powers. Oracle honestly does sound Divine when you consider the Greek oracles were messengers of the gods, but seers and visionaries definitely fit the power mechanics of psionics if not the modern sci-fi naming (at least the seers and visionaries who didn't attribute their sight/visions as coming from an outside source).
Empath is at least one class name that has both a fantasy and sci-fi feel to it, both well within the realm of psionics. I think psionics wouldn't lose any of the psionics feel if the class names meshed better with a fantasy pre-industrial environment as long as the powers still give that 'I keel you with my mind!' feel.
There are good chromatic dragons, and there will be evil metallic dragons...rare though they might be. There could even be good demons and devils, though they haven't been suggested, there's nothing of any sort at all, let alone mechanically, that forbids it.
Actually an evil metallic is much more likely in 4e than previously. All the metallic dragons in the MM2 are unaligned, not good or lawful good like they were previously (since good encompasses CG and NG). This brings them a bit more realism since even if not 'evil' they were still greedy and not really caring of human concerns which in 4e fits unaligned more than G/LG.
Demons and devils are much less likely to be good but rare exceptions might exist though at most they might get closer to unaligned than actually good/lawful good (or would they be awful good?).
The problem with abandoning all the psuedoscience ancient greek terminology in favor of more general fantasy flavor is that you are going disappoint all the existing fans of psionics. In an attempt to appeal to psionics detractors, you would be putting off everyone who thought the psionic flavor was fine as is.
I'm skipping a lot, so I dunno if someone else covered this. Nowhere in the MM does it say they need a brain every month or they starve. It says they subsist off of them, but there's not one thing in the MM that says they MUST eat sentient brains to survive. It says they subsist on the brains of intelligent creatures. Most creatures can "subsist" on any one type of food. It would be no different nutritionally than humans eating nothing but the perfectly flavored, most nutritious candy-bar ever.
No offence, but that is a VERY liberal interpretation. If a nature documentary said that bears subsisted on meat, fish, and berries, would that mean that they could also eat rocks but they just didn't mention it? Since the Monster Manual says they subsist on brains, and make no mention of them eating anything but, I'd say that they eat brains and brains alone. I agree they don't say anything about once a month though: I actually interpret it that they have to eat MORE often though, but that's just me.
So, what if Illithids in 4e can survive without intelligent brains? Perhaps they can meet their neural nutrition needs by eating animal brains instead? Since their tentacles can't be removed...they should retain some sort of improved grab. But, perhaps the price these unusual illithids pay for taking the moral high-ground is that they lose their mind blast? By not eating sentient brains, they don't die, but their psionic capabilities are reduced...to being roughly the same as any other intelligent creature. Now, WHY such illithids might exist is up to WotC and the players who choose to be one. But I think that's reasonable and viable and keeps them easily balanced without being somehow morally unacceptable or completely ruining them or anything.
I agree that that's perfectly acceptable, and such a background could make it so Ithillids could be PC's. The current fluff surounding Mind Flayers would have to change a bit, and there'd be a few players asking "if I eat their brains, can I get mind blast?", but other than that I'd be happy with that
Now...before people start with, "But in LoM: tBoA, it clearly states..." that book now means precisely jack. Fluff and mechanics of many races in 4e have been at least mildly, and in many cases significantly, altered. LoM: tBoA is a decent starting point, even usable for the time being in waiting for its 4e counterpart to replace it, but it is itself no longer canon. My previous suggestion is not only viable, it follows the spirit of 4e where nothing is ALWAYS true. There are good chromatic dragons, and there will be evil metallic dragons...rare though they might be. There could even be good demons and devils, though they haven't been suggested, there's nothing of any sort at all, let alone mechanically, that forbids it.
I agree, previous editions fluff, though a good starting basis, is largely irrelevant. There doesn't seem to be too much fluff changes regarding the Ithillids diet so far though... though it's quite possible their entire culture is due for an over haul. However, saying not all chromatic dragons are evil is one thing, saying some kobolds are five feet tall, mammalian, and have four arms while others don't is another. It's an extreme example, but if you differ a species phisiology, diet and other non-cultural factors too much, you'd be making a new species.
I'm not saying they WILL make Illithids a race...nor that they necessarily should. But it CAN be done with far less effort and difficult than some would have everyone believe. Provided, of course, that people can let go of what is now an irrelevant book. If it were to happen, I would probably welcome the addition as something interesting and enjoyable to play once in a while.
I agree, I'd love to see weakened, non-brain eating Ithillids as a PC race, or at least a tentacled substitute: example, my Far Realm cursed suggestion from earlier, and liberated thralls
The names of the classes and powers are a huge part of the flavor of the power source. A damage + slide power can be called one thing and have a totally different flavor from a different damage + slide power, for instance. You could totally reflavor the barbarian by calling it the "psychic warrior" and renaming the "rages" as "trances" without changing any of the actual mechanics.
The problem with abandoning all the psuedoscience ancient greek terminology in favor of more general fantasy flavor is that you are going disappoint all the existing fans of psionics. In an attempt to appeal to psionics detractors, you would be putting off everyone who thought the psionic flavor was fine as is.
I'm a fan of older edition psionics though so it wouldn't upset all of us obviously. And I'm not saying that the power names all have to change (though in a sense they would since we'd be dealing with 3-5 classes all with 3+ powers for almost every level 1-30 so would need more names than exist currently) but the class name just needs to evoke the feeling of what the class does and I think seer or visionary does as good a job if not better than clairvoyant, after all even psi-fi fans would recognize a seer with a psionic power source as being a clairvoyant (or medium, channeller, or one of many other names for someone with clairsentience powers).
I'm not saying they need to change all the names (empath as I already stated already exists and works for both sides) but they shouldn't feel a need to keep the 3e psionic class names just to 'keep it psionic' especially if a more fantasy name makes the class more complete and robust (like the monk does).
No offence, but that is a VERY liberal interpretation. If a nature documentary said that bears subsisted on meat, fish, and berries, would that mean that they could also eat rocks but they just didn't mention it? Since the Monster Manual says they subsist on brains, and make no mention of them eating anything but, I'd say that they eat brains and brains alone. I agree they don't say anything about once a month though: I actually interpret it that they have to eat MORE often though, but that's just me.
Fair enough, but that's why I specifically mentioned later that they eat animal brains instead. It removes the uncertainty of just how far their diet extends. I probably should've mentioned it before instead of after though.
I didn't like the logistical inconsistency of eating even 1 brain a month...let alone MORE. There's just no reasonable way to accomplish it without simply using an intelligent race that breeds and matures quickly as pure cattle. The Wraith and the Morlocks didn't have such specific dietary requirements and even THEY had trouble maintaining the food supply.
I agree that that's perfectly acceptable, and such a background could make it so Ithillids could be PC's. The current fluff surounding Mind Flayers would have to change a bit, and there'd be a few players asking "if I eat their brains, can I get mind blast?", but other than that I'd be happy with that
I definitely think it's completely reasonable that intelligent brains and associated neural tissues are the reason Illithids are such potent natural psychics. Take that away, no more mind blast. It would be relatively easy to say that it's a matter of lifestyle...eating the brain of one intelligent creature once doesn't net you a one-use mind blast. You'd have to eat them regularly for perhaps years to finally establish the basis for the power (and thus turn yourself into an NPC). Just as it took years of avoiding the brains of intelligent creatures to lose the use of the power. An easily extended variation of the simple "use it or lose it" concept. Now that I think of it though, a racial feat tree or such that allowed an illithid PC to regain their mind blast by other means might not be a stretch, nor a bad idea.
I agree, previous editions fluff, though a good starting basis, is largely irrelevant. There doesn't seem to be too much fluff changes regarding the Ithillids diet so far though... though it's quite possible their entire culture is due for an over haul. However, saying not all chromatic dragons are evil is one thing, saying some kobolds are five feet tall, mammalian, and have four arms while others don't is another. It's an extreme example, but if you differ a species phisiology, diet and other non-cultural factors too much, you'd be making a new species.
I can agree about the example with kobolds, but I don't think illithids as so far discussed come close to being that far removed.
I agree, I'd love to see weakened, non-brain eating Ithillids as a PC race, or at least a tentacled substitute: example, my Far Realm cursed suggestion from earlier, and liberated thralls
True enough.
I didn't like the logistical inconsistency of eating even 1 brain a month...let alone MORE. There's just no reasonable way to accomplish it without simply using an intelligent race that breeds and matures quickly as pure cattle. The Wraith and the Morlocks didn't have such specific dietary requirements and even THEY had trouble maintaining the food supply.
I actually like the idea of keeping races like cattle to eat the brains of myself, but I can see how that wouldn't suite everyone. I think Mindflayers are generally rare enough that they don't run into the same sorts of issues Morlocks and Wraiths would have though.. but that would would be campaign specific, so I can see the issue.
I definitely think it's completely reasonable that intelligent brains and associated neural tissues are the reason Illithids are such potent natural psychics. Take that away, no more mind blast. It would be relatively easy to say that it's a matter of lifestyle...eating the brain of one intelligent creature once doesn't net you a one-use mind blast. You'd have to eat them regularly for perhaps years to finally establish the basis for the power (and thus turn yourself into an NPC). Just as it took years of avoiding the brains of intelligent creatures to lose the use of the power. An easily extended variation of the simple "use it or lose it" concept. Now that I think of it though, a racial feat tree or such that allowed an illithid PC to regain their mind blast by other means might not be a stretch, nor a bad idea.
The only problem I see with Ithillids in this way is that in an evil campaign, rare and frowned upon as they are in 4th Edition, there'd be no fluff reason the brain eating Ithillid PC wouldn't have their mind blast, be able to eat brains, and generally unbalance things or have to search for justification as to why they don't have all their powers. I'd personaly prefer an Ithillid like race that weren't strictly Mind Flayers, but I'll admit I'm probably over thinking it ^_^;
I can agree about the example with kobolds, but I don't think illithids as so far discussed come close to being that far removed.
When a race is named after it's diet (Mind Flayer) changing that diet is a bit of a shift ;) . That said you're right, even with changing their diet a little an Ithillid would still be an Ithillid.
There's drow, duergar, dwarves, svirneblin, troglodytes, kuo-toa, and many other races in the underdark, some of them mature quite quickly.
That said the exiting fluff on illithid implies that their pscyhic abilities don't oriignate from diet but from their communal near-hive mind culture where they all are linked to each other via the birthing pool and the elder illithid brains that run a 'pod'. Their diet of sentient brains just seems like it's a prefered diet and may help fuel their ability to stay away from their birthing pool (let them keep self-suficiency).
4e may change that but based on what we have so far there's no reason to assume any of that has changed from previous editions.
So what would everyone think if they came out with a Psionic controller class called the Enchanter?? Acceptable? Unacceptable? Acceptable if...?
In my opinion, unacceptable. Whether you like pseudo-scientific names or not (I personally do, but that's just me) labelling psiconics as magic would be taking away what makes Psiconics different. Not to say that Psiconics should be overly special, but it you labelled the Artificer as "Potion Master" or something you'd be making it seem far more mundane than it actually is.
If you are okay with a priest called a Mage, a wizard called a Librarian, a fighter called a Grunt, a paladin called a Charity Worker, a warlock called an Intern, a rogue called a Criminal, a ranger called a Park Worker, and a druid called a Hippy.
Vaguely related, but not the same thing.
You cast enchantments. You manifest telepathy.
And while that may sound like a petty difference.......what if I said that Wizards used abilities called Prayers instead of Spells? One word can make a huge impact.
No offence, but that is a VERY liberal interpretation. If a nature documentary said that bears subsisted on meat, fish, and berries, would that mean that they could also eat rocks but they just didn't mention it? Since the Monster Manual says they subsist on brains, and make no mention of them eating anything but, I'd say that they eat brains and brains alone. I agree they don't say anything about once a month though: I actually interpret it that they have to eat MORE often though, but that's just me.
Illithids being and intelligent race is an important distinguishing factor as compared to bears. A better example would be a documentary of the dietary habits of an obscure tribal group. Their specific diet might vary drastically from what most of us eat, yet that is purely a cultural/regional distinction.
The Monster Manual stating that Illithids subsist on brains could be read as "the dominant illthid culture subsists on brains" rather than "illithids as a race subsist on brains".
Illithids being and intelligent race is an important distinguishing factor as compared to bears. A better example would be a documentary of the dietary habits of an obscure tribal group. Their specific diet might vary drastically from what most of us eat, yet that is purely a cultural/regional distinction.
The Monster Manual stating that Illithids subsist on brains could be read as "the dominant illthid culture subsists on brains" rather than "illithids as a race subsist on brains".
Ithillids being an intilligent species has nothing to do with anything in my opinion, simply because they're so completely alien compared to humans. Comparing them to an obscure tribal group isn't really a good comparison... a better one might be to whales or dolphins, arguabley sentinent species that are still completely removed from humans. I don't see that a baleen whale is going to be able to eat steak anytime soon, our species are just too different to let something like intelligence label us as sharing similar or identical potential eating habits.
Sure, Enchanter would be fine.
If you are okay with a priest called a Mage, a wizard called a Librarian, a fighter called a Grunt, a paladin called a Charity Worker, a warlock called an Intern, a rogue called a Criminal, a ranger called a Park Worker, and a druid called a Hippy.
You cast enchantments. You manifest telepathy.
Nice distinction.
They actually actually had a very good point: the only thing seperating the magical, mystical wizard from someone who likes books is their name. But the same token, the only thing seperating a telepath who uses the power of his mind to daze their foes with images and delusions and another Wizard subcategory is their name.
Nice distinction.
About the same distinction as "I shoot arrows at people" and "I shoot magic at people".
Ithillids being an intilligent species has nothing to do with anything in my opinion, simply because they're so completely alien compared to humans. Comparing them to an obscure tribal group isn't really a good comparison... a better one might be to whales or dolphins, arguabley sentinent species that are still completely removed from humans. I don't see that a baleen whale is going to be able to eat steak anytime soon, our species are just too different to let something like intelligence label us as sharing similar or identical potential eating habits.
Some very good idea's have been brought up to avoid the whole brain eating bit that would require only minor refluffing. I don't see the problem.
Additionally, while I still think brains should be a central part of their diet I could see where the person you're quoting from is coming from. There really isn't any fluff out there that strictly forbids Illithids from eating things other than brains.
Generally you'll find that animals don't subsist on a single diet. Look at dolphins as an example since you brought them up. They eat many varieties of fish, squid, crustaceans and more. Also keep in mind the fact that humans can eat pretty much anything a dolphin can eat.
Some very good idea's have been brought up to avoid the whole brain eating bit that would require only minor refluffing. I don't see the problem.
Additionally, while I still think brains should be a central part of their diet I could see where the person you're quoting from is coming from. There really isn't any fluff out there that strictly forbids Illithids from eating things other than brains.
Generally you'll find that animals don't subsist on a single diet. Look at dolphins as an example since you brought them up. They eat many varieties of fish, squid, crustaceans and more. Also keep in mind the fact that humans can eat pretty much anything a dolphin can eat.
True, but dolphis don't eat corn, nuts, puffer fish, and a large variety of things humans do eat (though I admit puffer fish can be a little risky...). That said, I'm perfectly fine with refluffing, I'm just arguing that what fluff we already have would imply that Ithillids eat nothing but brains. I'd be perfectly happy for them to be refluffed, whether it be for a campaign or by WotC
Also, just to emphasise my point, in the Vampire entry of the monster manual, it merely says that vampires thirst for blood, not that they have to feed on it regularly. Does this mean that vampires could be vegetarians? Barring personal refluffing of course ;)
Someone did raise the problem though of evil games still having supposedly vegetarian illithids without mind blast...why? If they're evil, wouldn't they still eat intelligent brains? Yeah...but frankly, I'm willing to overlook this for a playable illithid. Perhaps another reason for the eating of animal brains is to reduce the connection to the elder brain. Illithids who become even evil adventurers would be outcasts of their kind anyway.
Who knows. It's all just thought exercise anyway, there'll never be an Illithid PC race.
Who knows. It's all just thought exercise anyway, there'll never be an Illithid PC race.
Savage Species had a playable Illithid in 3rd edition didn't it?
Savage Species had a playable Illithid in 3rd edition didn't it?
True, but we're talking about 4th Edition. Without level adjustments, I don't see much of a way Ithillids could be a balanced PC race, though it would still be awesome if they, their thralls, or some kind of tentacled mustated Far Realm monstrosity appeared somewhere down the line
True, but we're talking about 4th Edition. Without level adjustments, I don't see much of a way Ithillids could be a balanced PC race, though it would still be awesome if they, their thralls, or some kind of tentacled mustated Far Realm monstrosity appeared somewhere down the line
But that's just it, changes could be made to balance them out. Look at Drow, they used to have a level adjustment. Aasimar had a level adjustment, Deva don't though. Tiefling had one as well and no longer do. Sure their level adjustments weren't as big as the Illithid one, but point is it can be done and there WAS a playable Illithid once before so we could have one again.
True, but we're talking about 4th Edition. Without level adjustments, I don't see much of a way Ithillids could be a balanced PC race, though it would still be awesome if they, their thralls, or some kind of tentacled mustated Far Realm monstrosity appeared somewhere down the line
How could they not be balanced? Take away their brain-eating and strip them of everything that isn't common to both Illithids in the MM, and all you've got left is Bore Into Brain and Mind Blast. Ditch mind blast along with the brain-eating, and make Bore Into Brain strictly a free grab attack racial encounter power. No more evil-brain-eating, and no more balance problem. Actually, they might be slightly underpowered, that way.
Edit: Sorry, didn't mean for that to come off as Jerkish as it did.
How could they not be balanced? Take away their brain-eating and strip them of everything that isn't common to both Illithids in the MM, and all you've got left is Bore Into Brain and Mind Blast. Ditch mind blast along with the brain-eating, and make Bore Into Brain strictly a free grab attack racial encounter power. No more evil-brain-eating, and no more balance problem. Actually, they might be slightly underpowered, that way.
Edit: Sorry, didn't mean for that to come off as Jerkish as it did.
I'd say give them mind blast instead of bore into brain actually. However make it a weaker version of mind blast. Perhaps some racial feats to power it up some in paragon and/or epic tiers.
But that's just it, changes could be made to balance them out. Look at Drow, they used to have a level adjustment. Aasimar had a level adjustment, Deva don't though. Tiefling had one as well and no longer do. Sure their level adjustments weren't as big as the Illithid one, but point is it can be done and there WAS a playable Illithid once before so we could have one again.
Drow were pretty much just regular elves with a few extra abilities. Aasimar wouldn't have had a level adjustment if their stats didn't get such a large bonus (I think, I don't have many 3rded books with me). Same goes for Tiefling. Ithillids, on the other hand, can shoot psychic blasts and such brains out of peoples heads. I'm not saying it COULDN'T be done, but it would be very difficult to do so.
That said, I think the primary argument about the problems Mind Flayers would have as a PC race is more their diet, appearance and fluff than their abilities.
EDIT: Both excellent points, but not giving the Mind Flayers mind blast and/or bore into brain strays dangerously close to furry four-armed Kobolds ;). That said, that still is a perfectly acceptable route to take, though I still believe it would be easier to make a new squid like race for PC use.
Drow were pretty much just regular elves with a few extra abilities. Aasimar wouldn't have had a level adjustment if their stats didn't get such a large bonus (I think, I don't have many 3rded books with me). Same goes for Tiefling. Ithillids, on the other hand, can shoot psychic blasts and such brains out of peoples heads. I'm not saying it COULDN'T be done, but it would be very difficult to do so.
Eh, already covered much of this in my previous post that I posted while you were likely writing this post.
That said, I think the primary argument about the problems Mind Flayers would have as a PC race is more their diet, appearance and fluff than their abilities.
Much of which minor fluff changes would take care of. Also, what's wrong with their appearance? Minotaurs are pretty monstrous in appearance and yet they are playable.
Oh gods, I can see it now....
DM: "Before you stands a humanoid figure around 6 feet tall. It's head is an expression of nightmare; it's eyes are two bloated orbs of white, and where it's mouth should be 4 hideous tentacles writh around the head of a helpless orc, whos keening wail speaks of utter torment. With a sickening crack, the figure pulls itself free of the orc, who collapses to the ground, with naught but empty space and glistening ichor where his brain should be. The figure straightens, and turns to face you."
Player 1: "You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?"
Illithid: "Yes. Yes I would."
...sorry I just love that quote, tempted to sig it :D
The point is that Minotaurs are anthropormothic, if hulking, humans. Mindflayers are modelled after the Elder god of insanity and evil. What's more, there's a certain precident for heroic minotaurs in popular culture (eg. Tauren from WoW), and even make a mention of such minotaurs in the Monster Manual. Ithillids have been portrayed as pretty much pure, unadulterated maliciousness since their conception. The fact that they also look totally awesome as a PC race probably isn't worth taking away the "Agggh, squid thing!" factor when PC's bump into an evil one.
Really, look up pictures of Minotaurs and Illithids. They both look equally monsterous.
I'd say give them mind blast instead of bore into brain actually. However make it a weaker version of mind blast. Perhaps some racial feats to power it up some in paragon and/or epic tiers.
Doesn't make much sense to take away all use of their tentacles...they're a physical factor that still exist even if the fluff and mechanics say you can't use them. It'd be only marginally different than chopping the tentacles off entirely.
Mind Blast, however, is merely a power with no obvious indicators of any sort. If you encountered two Illithids, and niether used mind blast, you'd never have any idea which one actually didn't have the power at all. You'd notice if their tentacles were useless or missing, though.
Plus, fluff-wise, it's easier to explain that they don't actually "bore into brain" with their grab and have no access to Mind Blast because they stopped eating sentient brains. They just don't get enough psychic juice from animal brains to use Mind Blast...and they never eat the brains of sentient creatures, making the actuall "boring into brain" part useless, and thus reducing it to a really good grab or something.
As for the fear and loathing such a character would encounter from others...well now that's just part of the fun of playing one. lol
That said, I'd say that we're slightly less likely to get an Ithillid write up as we would an ogre write up, if they ever managed to find a way to get around the size issue. It's not impossible, and I'd gladly play one if they did one, but it's not very likely
Doesn't make much sense to take away all use of their tentacles...they're a physical factor that still exist even if the fluff and mechanics say you can't use them. It'd be only marginally different than chopping the tentacles off entirely.
Mind Blast, however, is merely a power with no obvious indicators of any sort. If you encountered two Illithids, and niether used mind blast, you'd never have any idea which one actually didn't have the power at all. You'd notice if their tentacles were useless or missing, though.
Plus, fluff-wise, it's easier to explain that they don't actually "bore into brain" with their grab and have no access to Mind Blast because they stopped eating sentient brains. They just don't get enough psychic juice from animal brains to use Mind Blast...and they never eat the brains of sentient creatures, making the actuall "boring into brain" part useless, and thus reducing it to a really good grab or something.
As for the fear and loathing such a character would encounter from others...well now that's just part of the fun of playing one. lol
I suggest Mind Blast specifically because it's more universally useful while bore into brain is far too melee specific, especially for a race that would rather obviously be geared towards being a caster.
I suggest Mind Blast specifically because it's more universally useful while bore into brain is far too melee specific, especially for a race that would rather obviously be geared towards being a caster.
They could give them both, but make 'bore into brain' a racial feat. Then a melee based illithid could pick it up for an extra attack.
The default blast would be weaker than the monster without powering up at tiers and feats but that makes sense as the monster stats aren't for a level 1 monster.
As for 'useless tentacles' look at the default tiefling: despite a tail and horns they don't get any use out of them mechanics-wise by default. Shifters aren't likely to get any built-in bonuses as monks either even with claws on their hands. Not all physical features translate into a game mechanic benefit.
Also, just to emphasise my point, in the Vampire entry of the monster manual, it merely says that vampires thirst for blood, not that they have to feed on it regularly. Does this mean that vampires could be vegetarians? Barring personal refluffing of course ;)
As undead vampires arguably have no need for any form of sustenance. In fact it is not at all uncommon for vampires in various fictions to be able to go for long periods of time or even indefinitely without feeding. In such fictions fresh blood is usually only needed to fuel the vampires more impressive supernatural abilities.
I suggest Mind Blast specifically because it's more universally useful while bore into brain is far too melee specific, especially for a race that would rather obviously be geared towards being a caster.
I agreed. A weakened mind blast (balanced against the dragonborns breath attack) would seems well in line. As for the tentacles, a racial trait that grants them a +2 bonus on grab checks would be quite enough to represent the advantages they provide in holding a target.
As undead vampires arguably have no need for any form of sustenance. In fact it is not at all uncommon for vampires in various fictions to be able to go for long periods of time or even indefinitely without feeding. In such fictions fresh blood is usually only needed to fuel the vampires more impressive supernatural abilities.
That's actually a fair point, didn't really focus on the fact that vampires were undead... in some fiction vampires can in fact starve from a lack of blood, but with the base fluff it could really swing either way.
@That Blasted Somoflange: Right, sorry, I suppose we did get a little off topic ^_^;
For Primal, I have no clue.
Psionic is the one I want to see the most at this point. I'm thinking Monk, Psion, Psychic Warrior, and Empath.
this popped out at me while catching up:
Well Driz'zt is the most famous example (and one of the first written about in a novel). But even before Driz'zt there were good drow though usually not prominently featured anywhere. By the end of 3e there was also Elistraee and the and the redeemed drow who reverted back to dark elves (but in 4e are statted and called drow still). The key is that drow were elves who were led into evil by Lolth and cursed by Corellon while the orcs and githyanki have always been evil as long as they've been their race (githyanki started off as humans but the illithids altered them to such a degree they're now their own race), the less likely to be evil gith left and became the githzerai and over milenia have evolved further apart from each other in outlook, culture, and appearance. Same thing as the dwarf and duergar in 4e where the breeding with devils made the duergar a disctinct enough subrace to get their own racial writeup (note the MM2 monster stats still gives them a subtype of dwarf but also of devil).
Good drow and Eilistrae were around in second edition LONG BEFORE the culmination of 3rd.
2-handed striker for Divine
Avenger?
The Favoured one is a more agile paragon of their deity (probably striker, possibly leader).
The Chosen one is a more castery striker, the Warlock of Divine power.
How about a Chosen one or Favoured one?
The Favoured one is a more agile paragon of their deity (probably striker, possibly leader).
The Chosen one is a more castery striker, the Warlock of Divine power.
Aren't Favoured/Chosen allready coverd in the Invoker (i'm talking about the fluff concept)
Crusader – striker
o Armor: cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
o Weapons: simple melee, military melee, simple ranged
o Implements: holy symbol
The Crusader wants to get in and take on an opponent mano a mano but, can hang back as a defender if needed.
Saint – leader
o Armor: cloth
o Weapons: simple melee
o Implements: rods, staffs
The Saint is more about buff and debuffs that melee attacks and has a few controller type powers also.
Primal I haven't got anything.
Bel
Aren't Favoured/Chosen allready coverd in the Invoker (i'm talking about the fluff concept)
Not entirely, and what they do with their power is important.
We could do with a Divine Warlock with a Raven Queen Pact (as an example).
Maybe call it a "Witch"?
They should DEFINITELY do a divine Warlock!!!
Maybe call it a "Witch"?
Wouldn't that be sort of like calling a Shadow Sorcerer a Socereress?
They should DEFINITELY do a divine Warlock!!!
Maybe call it a "Witch"?
Nah, just iuse the old Favored Soul as the Divine "warlock." Sort of the Divine Pact warlock if you will.
Only evil necromancer's think as you do
No, no... the line is, "Only (Necromancer's) think in absolutes."
I don't know, I'm pretty sure the Invoker is the Divine Warlock; the word Covenant is a synonym of Pact, they have powers granted to them from a higher power much in the same way a Warlock does.
But they're only half striker, nowhere near as mobile and don't have pacts that drastically impact their playstyle.
But they're only half striker, nowhere near as mobile and don't have pacts that drastically impact their playstyle.
Thematically, the Invoker is the Divine Warlock thematically.
So let's hope Monk as psionic means Asian themes will be actually integrated into D&D and not just stappled on the side like they did with 'Oriental Adventures.' It would make me that much more ecstatic about how much I like 4e far better than 3e.
Yup, cause invokers are lazy like warlocks.
So let's hope Monk as psionic means Asian themes will be actually integrated into D&D and not just stappled on the side like they did with 'Oriental Adventures.' It would make me that much more ecstatic about how much I like 4e far better than 3e.
Being an Historian of the Medieval period in Asia, I hope you are right. WoTC would be doing D&D fans a disservice if they do not integrate Asian themes. Medieval Asia, from the Middle East, Near East and Far East offer so many great concepts and themes to enrich any D&D game. As far as the far east goes (China, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Vietnam, et.al.) you can go as far back as the Warring States Period and still have wonderful storylines, and characters.
BTW, I am also looking forward to the finalized rules for hybrid classes that will be in PHB3. I believe this will give even greater flexibility to players to make really unique characters, especially if they keep the rule allowing Hybridized characters to also multi-class.
Being an Historian of the Medieval period in Asia, I hope you are right. WoTC would be doing D&D fans a disservice if they do not integrate Asian themes. Medieval Asia, from the Middle East, Near East and Far East offer so many great concepts and themes to enrich any D&D game. As far as the far east goes (China, Korea, Japan, Thailand, Vietnam, et.al.) you can go as far back as the Warring States Period and still have wonderful storylines, and characters.
Yep. We, the people, crave it. You should email them some ideas for magazine articles
And besides, they have no excuse not to really - Seattle is closer to Tokyo than Berlin.Then as for a second class, and for extra synergy with the crusader, a templar class. The templar would be kind of like a paladin but a striker. He would do, say, an extra 2[W] damage on a charge. Giving them awesome burst damage. I'd also like to see incentive for spears, like increase the damage dice for spears by one. I'd want to see both the crusader and the templar start with scale proficiency, because both of them would have defender as a secondary role.
Thinking of options like these made it sound really fun to play in a party with a Paladin, a Cleric, an Avenger, a Crusader, and a Templar, all of which worship Pelor and vanquish undead and demons. A party like that would really embrace the idea of divine classes, the cleric could say things like, "Let Pelor's light shine!" before using a power.
Of course, there will be other cool things in PHB3, but new divine classes really has me looking forward for it!