I think 2010 might see the return of Dark Sun in 4e. Psionics were heavily used in the setting and psionic powers will likely be in Player's Handbook 3 so it would make marketing sense to have an exciting setting that supports psionic powers come out in the same year.
Here are some predictions for the Player's Guide.
New Races: Mul, Thri-kreen, 1 other race
New Classes: Defiler (environmental destruction rules for Swordmages and Wizards), Elemental Cleric (alternate Channel Divinity feature + new elemental cleric powers), Elemental Warlock (new warlock pact)
New Epic Destinies: Avangion, Dragon King, Psi Master, Demi-Primordial, Nature Lord
Here's a wild twist for the story of Dark Sun. Probably not going to happen though.
Nanda Shatri, now an avangion, attempts to return life to the wastelands of the world with limited success. The epic ritual does not go unnoticed in the cosmos. Gods and primordials are attracted to Athas once again. New and old sorceror kings make war against the interlopers and suppress the new cults appearing in worship of the divine and elemental beings.
What do you predict for the setting?
What's on your wish list?
How do you think the story will progress if at all?
Will the setting be re-booted like Batman Begins?
Should Dark Sun be the 2010 setting?
Anyways because I (and I am sure many others) started after the era of dark sun I don't really know what to wish for or what to tihnk of the story. If they did a reboot I'd never know. I have "aquired" pdf's of all those old books... but I' not sure I really want to take the time to read them as it stands.
From the little I have read on the setting, it is the perfect PoL setting and about as different from FR and Eberron as you can get. In my opinion, based on book volume, darksun is one of the big big campaign settings. And based on the fact that darksun novels are being republished (new ones being written?), I think DS is a safe bet for 2010.
Mul, Thri-Kreen, ...Would we have 1/2 Giants or would they just use Goliaths in their place? We'd have to see some pretty major changes to the Halflings too.
I'd love to see the bone and obsidian weapons. Makes you appreciate the steel that much more. Then if/when you get a magic weapon....wow!
Great setting. I could live with Spelljammer too though.
Not even quite sure what genre/concept I'd like to see covered, but the buzz over Eberron when it first hit the shelves was kinda fun for me & I'd like to do it all over again sometime soon - to boldly go where no geek has gone before, you know?
2/ OP's idea about gods coming is bad. Athas is a godless world and should stay as such. It is a very important part of the setting.
3/ PC races in the PH3: Thri-kreen, half-giant, maybe aarakoa or pteran. Mul will be in the setting book, as it is unique to Dark Sun. If I saw a mul in FR, I'd have to kick the DM in hte shin.
4/ As for a Batman Begins or BSG style revisioning, I would be down with that as long as they don't violate the very core elements that make DS so very special: savagry, godlessness, despair, ancient secrets being revealed, etc.
5/ Bone/stone/obsidian: I'd rather they take a route of using different weapons rather than just the same fantasy trappings with different materials. A stone sword is impractical and silly, but the jawbone of a half giant sharpened and strapped to a club, that's Dark Sun. I'd like some realism with weapon design in regard to what you make with what weapons, but still have the brutal looking original weaponry.
6/ Templars: Make Templars like the 4e assassin. Not a class, but a classification. This means you can take any divine PC class and strap the title Templar on them. Instead of serving gods, they serve the sorcerer kings. HOWEVER, 4e seems to be getting away from designing NPCs like PCs, and PC templars are shaky at best. My vote is that the only mechanical handling of the templar is as a creature in the DM book.
7/ The Dark Sun Bard: Easily my least favorite element of Dark Sun. It was thrown together with the thinking that they needed a bard, but didn't want to deal with them as an arcane caster w/ all the trappings of defiling/preserving. IMHO, it was silly and I hated it. Note that Bard has been my favorite class since 2e. I'd like the bard to stay as it is in ph2, with the mojo recommended in point 8.
8/ Defiling/preserving: Any and all arcane classes should be allowed, and as a default they are defilers. Defiling is easy. Preserving takes extra time and dedication. make Preserver a Feat and not a class. Make all arcane casters take the Feat as a show of how much harder it is to cast preserver magic than it is to cast defiler magic. Also, allow as a setting mechanic available to all classes a method to empower spells by choosing to defile a little extra. Increase the level of the spell to increase the damage of an attack in regards to the amount of defiling done to the land.
9/ Elemental clerics: Make all divine classes chose an element as a god. Then, to differentiate between the various elements, have Channel Divine feats that add definition to the character, followed by Paragon Paths. I say all divine classes should be open to this. As per my sig, a mul paladin of earth would be damn fun to play.
10/ Advanced beings: Dark Sun was the first D&D setting to have set rules for play up to level 50. 50! How? In order to become an advanced being (dragon, avangion, elemental) you had to go to level 20 as one class (defiler/preserver/cleric) and then dual class to a psion for another 20 levels. THEN you could take a ten level "class" that eventually turned you into a godlike being. Please, Wotc, please keep something like this. No, don't go the easy route that would be very game wrecking and make being a dragon as easy as an Epic Destiny. Make EDs that set the PC up for becoming an advanced being with that going from level 31-40. A level 30 ritual that requires a wizard-preserver with the psion multi-class feat and at least x number of psion powers and x number of psion feats that lets the PC start gaining experience again and taking Advanced Levels. I would also like to see more advanced beings that allow primal and martial characters share the experience of 31-40.
11/ Psionics: Don't know enough about 4e plans, but I love psionics and I look forward to seeing them.
As per my sig, a mul paladin of earth would be damn fun to play.
Paladins in Dark Sun?! Sacrilige! ;)
10/ Advanced beings: Dark Sun was the first D&D setting to have set rules for play up to level 50. 50! How? In order to become an advanced being (dragon, avangion, elemental) you had to go to level 20 as one class (defiler/preserver/cleric) and then dual class to a psion for another 20 levels. THEN you could take a ten level "class" that eventually turned you into a godlike being. Please, Wotc, please keep something like this. No, don't go the easy route that would be very game wrecking and make being a dragon as easy as an Epic Destiny. Make EDs that set the PC up for becoming an advanced being with that going from level 31-40. A level 30 ritual that requires a wizard-preserver with the psion multi-class feat and at least x number of psion powers and x number of psion feats that lets the PC start gaining experience again and taking Advanced Levels. I would also like to see more advanced beings that allow primal and martial characters share the experience of 31-40.
The Epic Desitnies of 4E are a perfect fit for the dragon/avangion progression from 2E. By claiming that the advanced being progression is somehow beyond epic destinies, you are totally downplaying exactly how potent epic characters are intended to be. The most powerful epic destiny is a genuine "demigod", for instance.
Second, they are never going to make 31-40th level play because it would break down the tenuously balanced math of the system even more than it already is. They are already trying to patch the high level math and adding an extra 10 levels would just make things worse. There is also the fact that you'd really need to make a whole extra tier's worth of monsters to make the endever worthwhile. Ultimately, i just dont see them adding more levels.
The point of 4th edition is to make PCs into heroes. Defiliers are not that. Also, they have effect, If I remember right, such as causing pain to everyone in the vicinity (not to mention destroying plant life) while casting. This would result in area penalties that would target all creatures rather than allies. Typical of monsters rather than PCs. I like thae thought that the defiler monster could have powers whose use would have the side effect of causing those in the area to lose an action: minor, or perhaps move, do to the pain and discomfort caused.
Dragon kings are powerful creatures who cast great spells killing thousands. I don't see that made as an option for the hero oriented 4th edition.
Mentioning the gods brings up an important point. People did worship them in the past of Athas as was evident in the areas beneath Tyr, I believe. There were statues to them, etc. So, perhaps they might make available a feat such as 'servant of the lost ones' or whatever which would give a cleric like ability for tose who take it. Then later supplements could possibly give a paragon path or perhaps an associated epic destiny. Just a thought there.
The point of 4th edition is to make PCs into heroes. Defiliers are not that. Also, they have effect, If I remember right, such as causing pain to everyone in the vicinity (not to mention destroying plant life) while casting.
Sounds exactly like the Darkspiral warlock though. In fact, many of the powers of the Dark pact warlock that have him inflicting pain/damage on his allies in order to boost his spell damage are just like defiling magic.
Dragon kings are powerful creatures who cast great spells killing thousands. I don't see that made as an option for the hero oriented 4th edition.
I cant think of a single 20th level character that hasnt killed thousands. ;)
I'm sure they will put the dragon transformation in as an epic destiny but they will explicitly state that using the powers for good or evil depends on the character, not the innate nature of the destiny. Just like we have the devil-pact making warlock and the blood-draining dhamyr as character options, so will we have the dragon transformation destiny, though i wouldnt be surprised if they changed the transformation ritual or left it vague.
2/ Advanced Beings: While I ahve not experienced EDs in play and have only read through them, none of them compare to the power of an avangion. If allowing for levels 31-40 (something I believe should only be done for this setting and not other if done at all) is that taboo and unworkable, then I'd like to see advanced beings kept out of reach of PCs or redesigned to be at an equal power level to EDs.
3/
I cant think of a single 20th level character that hasnt killed thousands.
: Not in one action they haven't
1/ Defilers: Rumplestix hit it on the nose, something I should have thought of already, consider my comments on Templars. Duh.
2/ Advanced Beings: While I ahve not experienced EDs in play and have only read through them, none of them compare to the power of an avangion. If allowing for levels 31-40 (something I believe should only be done for this setting and not other if done at all) is that taboo and unworkable, then I'd like to see advanced beings kept out of reach of PCs or redesigned to be at an equal power level to EDs.
3/ : Not in one action they haven't
I say allow Dragon King and such as epic destinies I mean there is already an epic destiny for becoming a devil lord. So yeah dragon king isnt that much better.
Was it next month they said there would be some hints of what the next campaign setting would be in Dragon.
Warlocks (who make pacts with entities that range between amoral and utterly evil)
Dhampyr (the sons and daughters of vampires and the common races, who drink blood and have unholy powers)
Tieflings (an entire race cursed by an ancient devilish pact)
Necromancy (included in both open grave and in the Secrets of the city entombed)
One channel divinity feat for an evil god (Namely Bane, the god of warfare and tyranny)
So antiheroes and villain protagonists are at least somewhat supported in 4th edition (it's just that it's specified that you should talk to your DM before playing an evil character).
Defiler magic could be handled by dark-pactesque mechanics that cause minor penalties to creatures in a given area and that are described as blighting the land. The area of effect could start small at heroic, move up to a larger area at paragon, and become something like a burst 5 at epic. There could then be a feat called "Preserver" which would remove the defiling effect and allow you to exclude a single ally from the effects of a burst or blast once per day or something like that. So there'd be an element of strategy there-do you spend a feat and gain more control (and a rp advantage) or do you stay as a defiler and gain an uncontrollable debuff. Heck, there could probably be a multi-class only class that focuses on defiling (allowing you to draw power from creatures and what not).
I'm frankly worried about defiling and divine casters. It's eminently likely that they will simply call warlocks defilers and be done with it, which would be awful. Also, the current divine classes are simply unsuited to dark sun, with all their radiant and thunder damage. What we need is the upcoming elemental power source, which at best estimate will probably not be out until 2011. unless they just make the phbiii psionics and elemental, which would basically confirm dark sun. Also, they'll never take out a power source, so I guess we're just doomed to have the 4th ed divine flavor jammed into the setting, probably with little or no thought to the flavor.
I think we'll definitely see dragon kings as epic destinies. And I think they will screw it up.
4e doesn't really work well for dark sun. Or a lot of campaign settings, for that matter. it has a lot more hard-wired assumptions in the rules for both characters and monsters. Even if one doesn't agree with the idea that it has more, at the very least, they are substantially different from previous incarnations of D&D, and that will make a lot of difficulty for adapting it to old settings.
And why is no one pointing out that if we're getting Ki classes in the PH3 (Monk is confirmed, and we know that is ki), why would we not also get Githzerai and Githyanki as races? Noticeably, one deals with ki and the other psionics. It'd make sense for them to be in the book, if it has both ki and psionics (and it'd make sense to have githzerai even if there weren't psionics, though I could see githzerai being in a PDF in the same month instead).
Don't know anything about Dark Sun, but it sounds like a neat sort of place. Hopefully it'll come with a core class when they publish it. So by the time it's out, we'll have 27 classes. I don't intend to buy it -- didn't buy Forgotten Realms, and won't buy Eberron --, but the compendium will give me the info I want to know.
The divine power source will simply be refluffed in the campaign guide. As for Defiler and what not, thats a title that anyone (arcane?) can assume, therefore at most it'll be a PP, but will likely be just a fluff title. As for a feat to -not- be a defiler... that's no reason punishment on the system, it's likely that every "heroic" wizard will not be a defiler by default, and the npc's will be a bit buffed for going the easy route.
That however is the core reason it never made it into the mainstream of dnd.
Its highly challenging on a personal level to take on the hardships and challenges it offers, instead of just whipping around in a more standard setting free to do pretty much anything you like without restriction or consequence and certainly without the vast swaths or moral greys and ethical mires common on Athas.
(Defiling is part of that moral dilemma aspect, as illustrated even in this brief thread, there aren't many people who realise it- despite having been a contentious issue for so many years).
A few years ago I would love to've seen it re-created in a way that more people could appreciate (ie: not as harsh) but (and I'll sound condescending here though I don't mean to) the target audience of dnd isn't mature enough to handle it.... hell, most people I know regardless of actual age can't handle the setting, well before even tackling its moral aspects (aside from treating it as a bloodbath & power-gaming through it).
It was mentioned a while back that DarkSun's original concept was to release a setting in it's Blue Age time-frame. It could be truly awesome if that's the current goal - but its a sci-fi setting and potentially even more niche than the current incarnation of DarkSun and on top of that could easily put existing fans off-side for reasons outlined below.
The truly great thing about DarkSun is that the core idea of the whole thing is that it's ground-breaking and evolutionary, a Blue Age version could be truly amazing if it were done right... fans of other settings would want similar treatment though.
The die-hard fans have for over a decade developed their own games; athas.org have gone out of their way to produce mountains of material purely in their own personal time & take the extra time to publicly test & present them in a professional manner... that alone I think deserves a little kudos or special mention like say in a DMG.
It's never wise to make anything purely to please fans though, they've each got their own idea of how things should be and extremely high expectations - even if you please a few, the rest tend to be even more critical than people new to the setting/product.
A half-arsed attempt that as Azazyll suggested, might see a core feature boxed into an existing mechanic (defilers as warlocks for example) would guarantee its failure amongst fans and engender a great loss of respect from all quarters.
I'd recommend they evaluate what it is they've got worked out best, what really captures the imagination of their whole team and make it the highest quality it possibly can be - preferably with supporting tools to help DM's and players alike.
From my point of view SpellJammer is their best bet, particularly as its open to linkage from people who want to incorporate it into their existing settings while it still stands up on its own merits.
On a side note, I'd point out that dnd needs to offer more than hackNslash alone (which I believe wizards recognize) - console & computer games have that aspect of gaming covered better than any non-computing platform could ever accomplish.
Having said that, a greater focus on employing artists (good artists) to visually flesh out the various settings, official adventures, supplements and novels would be a huge help.
Defilers. Not a class but a mechanic. All arcane power sourced magic is by default defiling magic (as per the original boxed set), you have to learn to preserve. Preserving is slower and/or harder to do. A simple mechanic of a -1 penalty on some aspect (to hit, damage, etc) would be a quick fix, but not necessarily a great one. And I definitely don't want it to be literally slower, i.e. extra actions to cast the same spells. Blerg. I would only want a Preserver feat if it eliminated that difference, essentially making standard 4E magic that characters default without any penalty.
Templars. A divine leader with something akin to the warlock pact. Not that hard. Definitely a PC class.
Elemental priests. I would love to see elemental priests done with an eye toward the para-elementals as well. The silt and sun priests were so wonderful in flavor. A lot of powers can easily have their flavor text rewritten and their damage type changed to make any kind of powers you want.
Gladiators. A paragon path would work really well for these guys. I know anyone, at any level, could technically be a gladiator in the original, but unless they were well suited to arena life / fighting, they didn't last long. Which is why I think it should be a PP. Those that last in the arena can claim the title. When it boils down, they're just extremely specialized fighters. I don't see a need to generate a full list of all new powers just for these guys.
Wild Talents. Everyone had psionics. The quickest way would be to give everyone the half-elf Dilettante feature. Change the descriptor to "psionic" and change the damage type to psychic.
Weapons. Please keep the weapons breakage rules. There can be a mix of "battle ax" made from a club and a sharpened jaw bone lashed to it and new weapons. The flavor weapons just have to be in there.
Armor. The only ones you really have to worry about are the chain, scale, and plate guys. For these just make similarly protective armors out of different materials or give them a free feat that boosts their AC.
Half-giants. Goliaths make a decent stand-in, for now.
Thri-Kreen. Please. Oh, please.
Dark Sun in 2010!
I don't think gladiator needs to be a new class. 4E rules are perfect for arena fighting and we already have new stuff for martial characters becoming gladiators. (Although a martial controller would be perfect for this setting.)
Templars should either be a PP or NPC monster, or both. If there would be templar rules, it should be in an evil supplement, although, again even unaligned characters would choose it because of the ignorance/social class issue.
Even though Dark Sun has always been my favorite setting, I can see the inclusion of divine classes and the new races. With the changes that occured in the novels, hope and faith can make mighty changes. Paladins can follow ideals, just like clerics, monks, and others can. That has already been used in Eberron and a few other worlds. I am reluctant to say that the old gods can come back. I would actually see it closer to vestiges and worshipping spirits of the land (or the more powerful primordials). Granted the elemental source would fit better, but there can be a place for the divine.
Races is even easier. First, Athas was hardly as explored as the other campaign worlds. Even with their one expansion, it still left a lot (especially with the assumption that there would be no oceans). There is a lot of run to insert new races. And speaking of 'new races,' Athas was choke full of them. Creatures were literally being created in the past as well as the present.
As for what should appear in the Dark Sun Player's Guide: Muls and Thri-kreen. There would obviously be sections that pertain to the fluff changes of the other races (age and height changes for the elves don't change any of the mecanics of the game, for instance).
Epic Destinys play right into Dark Sun. A Dragon ED would need to be included, along with Avangion, just for the reason that player's are going to want it, even though it is evil. Mechanics can be changed so that it doesn't require mass genocide. But, in an evil artile in Dragon, the Dragon ED could be flushed out more for an evil campaign. If it is not an ED, it would definitely need to be in the Campaign Guide as an epic level monster.
Last, but certainly not least, is psionics. Everybody should have a wild talent. I don't think 4E rules will have it (just a suspicion), so it would probably be something like backgrounds. You would get a small bonus or effect and the fluff would be psionic in nature. Another option is a free feat. Feats are perfect tools for creating psionics for non-psionic class characters.
Last word for now: Starting at 3rd level and having a character tree. It's silly, but that was my biggest complaint about Athas.org's 3E rules. It wasn't in the rules at all. I know it has nothing to do with mechanics. It is just something anybody can do, but I think it immediately gives Dark Sun the feeling that it is harsher and more powerful. No matter what setting I play or DM in, I always start at 1st level, expect Dark Sun. Charater trees and 3rd level should just be the rule. (I know that 4E 1st level charaters are tougher than any other edition, but it still should be done. You get the utility power and a second encounter attack power).
The process of transforming to a full dragon or avangion would mean becoming a higher level "monster", then an elite higher level "monster", and finally a solo higher level "monster".
The whole gods coming back thing was a joke by the way. Perhaps the change in edition may involve the return of Rajaat or previously unnamed followers of Rajaat, since that malevolent being "invented" magic in the setting and there needs to be a reason for the change in how spells are cast on Athas.
The thing that is disappointing to me is that they are definately going to want to include everything 4E, including things like tieflings.
Yeah, I really don't see anyone in this thread enjoying Dark Sun. I would, but then again I'm pretty flexible in what I like. Also I was already playing a Dark-Sun inspired before coming to D&D. I came to D&D for a few reasons, one of which was I wanted a high-magic game which this didn't allow.
I'd personally love to see what Wizards do with Dark Sun. I just don't think anyone here is going to like it because any deviation from what they see as "Dark Sun" will be considered sacrilege. If you thought the FR fans kicked up a storm at the changes, its nothing compared to what Dark Sun fans will kick up.
I think everyone in this thread should simply wait for the psionic classes and then make their own 4th edition Dark Sun campaign.
I rather the books give me options and material so that I can include whatever I wish, into my own version of Dark Sun. So as such, I rather they not either through fluff or some mechanic completely block something from inclusion.
Also, one of the benefits of 4e, is that since fluff and mechanics are separate from each other. The classes and races that didn't exist in Dark Sun can be easily refluffed/reinterpreted to fit quite well into it. Especially when you consider such things like Keywords (ala Radiant) is considered valid refluffing in 4e.
I'd personally love to see what Wizards do with Dark Sun. I just don't think anyone here is going to like it because any deviation from what they see as "Dark Sun" will be considered sacrilege. If you thought the FR fans kicked up a storm at the changes, its nothing compared to what Dark Sun fans will kick up.
As long as they include everything that was in the old boxed set, people can always take all the 4E stuff out pretty easily. Personally, my issue is that none of the people i play with know anything about dark sun, so they will ***** and moan if i say "no gnomes" or "no tieflings" simply because they're used to every option being in every setting.
BTW, I think the FR fans had more to complain about than DS fans might because their whole world got a reboot, leaving out 4E rules for anyone who wanted to keep on playing in the older time frame. If WotC doesnt mess with timeline much and simply injects the 4E stuff, then i dont think DS fans will have anything reasonable to complain about.
then i dont think DS fans will have anything reasonable to complain about.
See, I believe similarly about FR fans, and yet they moan and gripe.
We've already had people say they better not include Tieflings with much consternation about how Defilers will be handled. The more details that are leaked about 4e Dark Sun, the more complaining we'll see.
After all, anyone can simply play pre-Spellplague Forgotten Realms using the 4th edition rule system. Just as anyone can use the original Boxed Set for the fluff rather with the 4e rule system.
-2008: Forgotten Realms (traditional fantasy)
-2009: Eberrron (non-traditional fantasy)
-2010: Dragonlance (traditional fantasy)
-2011: Dark Sun (non-traditional fantasy)
-2012: Greyhawk (traditional fantasy)
1. Brom. He has to do most of the art. It made Dark Sun for me. Braxa . . . not so much.
2. Do not advance the timeline too far. Keep the events of 2E current. That article in Dragon that had advanced DS 100 or 1,000 years was just wrong.
I honestly do think there is a good chance of this. The artwork for the Goliath race has a very Athasian flavor to it, and Warlocks with a "Dragon King" pact would work splendidly as Templars. The way that fighters exploits work in 4th edition would work excellently for exciting, brutal gladiatorial combats. And, as many have pointed out, Psionics looks like a good bet for inclusion in Players Handbook 3. In fact, almost everything about 4th edition D&D seems almost tailored to mesh with a setting like Dark Sun.
I'll be keeping my fingers crossed ( and a little cash saved back ) for the revival of this awesome setting in 2010!
See, I believe similarly about FR fans, and yet they moan and gripe.
We've already had people say they better not include Tieflings with much consternation about how Defilers will be handled. The more details that are leaked about 4e Dark Sun, the more complaining we'll see.
Oh, im sure their will be complaints but if the elements are easily removable then they wont be reasonable complaints. ;)
After all, anyone can simply play pre-Spellplague Forgotten Realms using the 4th edition rule system. Just as anyone can use the original Boxed Set for the fluff rather with the 4e rule system.
I think its going to be much easier to run a traditional DS game by removing a few things than it is to run an old time line FR game with 4E. With FR there are so many organizations (paragon paths), monsters and NPCs that do not have the appropriate stats. It seems like a lot more work.
1. Brom. He has to do most of the art. It made Dark Sun for me. Braxa . . . not so much.
Lol. This is pretty much a universal sentiment among DS fans, Everyone loves Brom and Everyone hates Braxa.
If it is presented as a base class, then I think some kind of Striker is likely. Perhaps one of the special features setting gladiator apart will be proficiency with all weapons including superior weapons.
Since I'm old and my memory is failing me, I forgot about Dragon magazine which did a wonderful bit on... wait for it... gladiators. Dragon 368 did a whole long bit on gladiatorial combat, a gladiator PP, feats, fighting styles, weapons, etc. There's no question left in my mind what it'll be. Gladiators are already in 4E, they're a style and a PP, not a class.
Style does not preclude class.
Thrikreen: +2 Dex, +2 Con
Since Half-Giants on Athas are Large creatures, I suspect they will be monster entries only in the campaign setting book.
Since I'm old and my memory is failing me, I forgot about Dragon magazine which did a wonderful bit on... wait for it... gladiators. Dragon 368 did a whole long bit on gladiatorial combat, a gladiator PP, feats, fighting styles, weapons, etc. There's no question left in my mind what it'll be. Gladiators are already in 4E, they're a style and a PP, not a class.
i agree 100%
Muls: +2 Str, +2 Con
I disagree. +2 Str, +2 Wis, with an ability allowing them to roll endurance skill checks twice and keep the result they like, a la a Goliath's "Powerful Athlete" racial feature to simulate their endurance. Str/Con a very common mix. There are currently three with full write-ups (Goliath, Minotaur, and Warforged). Str/Wis is not (with only the Longtooth Shifter), still maintains continuity with their dwarven ancestry, and seems to fit the lore at least as well (we have examples in the novels, for example, of muls making good gladiators, and good clerics, so a Str primary/Wis secondary class, and a Wis/Str primary class). Plus, if they choose to make an actual half-giant (instead of stating that they are simply goliaths, who are called half-giants on Athas), that will definitely be (yet another) a Str/Con race.
Thri-kreen: +2 Dex, +2 Con
Maybe. That is certainly more unusual. Right now, that, and my original guess (Str/Dex) both have only one full write-up at the moment, and either seems to fit somewhat. Regardless, Dex is most assuredly one of their stats.
Since Half-Giants on Athas are Large creatures, I suspect they will be monster entries only in the campaign setting book.
I simply cannot see them entirely eliminating an iconic race from Dark Sun, rather than simply making a balanced race that, while being rather large, isn't treated as an actual Large creature. Especially since the precedent for dropping 2E half-giant size down to a more manageable level is present in the actual printed product.
Since Half-Giants on Athas are Large creatures, I suspect they will be monster entries only in the campaign setting book.
I think it more likely the Goliaths will take the place of Half-Giants.
Im guessing we will end up with medium-sized playable half-giants and atleast one large monster variety (like the minotaur).
I'm hoping the same thing for Centaurs in MMII.
The cries of the fanboys will be a pleasure, but who cares. You can't have a setting, that removes half of the classes and races from the Player's Handbooks and introduces more half-race scum (way to go "creative") and turns known races into "it doesn't make sense, but hey it's different".
Nah. I'm looking forward to the setting, I just don't expect it to be the same thing it was before. No, I hope it will not be the same. Just recognizable, similar to what happend to the Forgotten Realms, maybe a little more even.
Nah. I'm looking forward to the setting, I just don't expect it to be the same thing it was before. No, I hope it will not be the same. Just recognizable, similar to what happend to the Forgotten Realms, maybe a little more even.
Just what Athas needs, a clamity event!
Just what Athas needs, a clamity event!
Here comes Jane!
Yeah, I must say, I hate when busybody authors **** and pillage a campaign setting.
Here comes Jane!
Yeah, I must say, I hate when busybody authors **** and pillage a campaign setting.
Actually, I'm kind of hoping they get one.
I'm hoping to see how they'll top the established Charlie-Foxtrot known as "the History of Athas."
Actually, I'm kind of hoping they get one.
What, an Athasian **** and pillage?
Dark Sun is in need of some serious retconning. A lot of it.
Looking forward to that. :D
Just what Athas needs, a clamity event!
You know, I was not talking about the FR events, but about the outcome, how much it has changed. I don't think Athas needs calamity to change.
Example:
You simply ignore the fact that Muls and Half-Giants ever existet and replace them completly with Goliaths.
The sun didn't change color, no Sorcerer
Other changes: don't kill of 80% of the MM. Don't disallow gods "because there is no web of faith to support them like in other settings" (seriously, that was the most retarded explanation I have ever read in a campaign guide). Don't cut off the planes, because you are afraid some characters from Faerun might come over to have a party. And so on, and so on..
The more I think about it... meh. No matter, I have great hopes that Wizards will make that one right and will not be afraid to upset some old dudes that cling to nostalgia as if their life depended on it (aka Fanboys).
Oh, and ditch the Butterfly-Transformation crap. That's just too much "My little Ponies".
No one will miss those mongrels anyway.
I always liked Muls, as they were not another cheap half-breed many of the others, IMO.
I love the setting. I GM on it until today, having adapted it to various systems. My longest run campaign is old, and it is still running on DarkSun, although we dont use D&D anymore.
The reson i dont want it adapted for 4e? It will most likely change the setting absurdly.
A *lot* has to be reworked for it to work with 4e. Clerics doing Thunder and Radiant damage, *defiling* , paladins, player races, weapon materials, psionics. Those are just the top of my head examples.
-Some are easy to be worked with, like weapon materials.
-Some are easy to be refluffed, like clerical powers, but they do need a lot of changing from the Core. The most likely solution is to change the setting and leaving the Core system intact, as that is the proposal of the D&D 4ed - having a Core that is the same anywhere
-Some are really not made for 4e. Restricting player races and classes are a clear example of that. Again, to keep the same feel as the original things would have to be changed from the Core.
-Some would need a *lot* of work to even have the same feel as the original DarkSun, much less to be balanced. I am looking at defiling especifically, but psionics will be at least equally challenging.
What will happen if DarkSun is released for 4ed is that the setting will be adapted to the system, and that will either kill or severely change the setting. The ideal part to preserve the setting would be to adapt the 4ed system to it, and that will not happen.
I am just glad DarkSun was never a good comercial investment, so chances that it will be revisited are fairly small.
Truth be told, after seeing how much a mess one can make with Forgotten Realms, i can only fanthom what can happen with more bizzarre settings like DarkSun
You know, I was not talking about the FR events, but about the outcome, how much it has changed. I don't think Athas needs calamity to change.
Example:
You simply ignore the fact that Muls and Half-Giants ever existet and replace them completly with Goliaths.
The sun didn't change color, no SorcererWimpKing had to die, a simple change. Fanboys will cry (and that alone brings joy), but the world will be barely changed by that. No one will miss those mongrels anyway.
Other changes: don't kill of 80% of the MM. Don't disallow gods "because there is no web of faith to support them like in other settings" (seriously, that was the most retarded explanation I have ever read in a campaign guide). Don't cut off the planes, because you are afraid some characters from Faerun might come over to have a party. And so on, and so on..
The more I think about it... meh. No matter, I have great hopes that Wizards will make that one right and will not be afraid to upset some old dudes that cling to nostalgia as if their life depended on it (aka Fanboys).
Oh, and ditch the Butterfly-Transformation crap. That's just too much "My little Ponies".
Whats the point of releasing DS at all if you are just going to take things out? The FR "calamity" wasnt about taking out options that make the setting unique...it was about adding more stuff. I agree that they should deffinately start from the timeline of the orginal boxed set. Lets keep all the sorcerer kings.
Have I missed the memo, where they were no longer depressed half-dwarfs? That's as cheap as you can get after Half-Elves.
Ah yes, the "emo" argument that people like to randomly invent out of thin air in an attempt to discredit races they dont like.lol. Kinda like when tieflings were announced and people were crying about how they were "depressed". "I hate how every shadar-kai and dhampyr is necessarily angsty!" ;)
In any case, Muls are infintely better than half-elves because they are not a race of girly-men. In fact, they are pretty much the anti-bishis of 2E.
The reson i dont want it adapted for 4e? It will most likely change the setting absurdly.
A *lot* has to be reworked for it to work with 4e. Clerics doing Thunder and Radiant damage, *defiling* , paladins, player races, weapon materials, psionics. Those are just the top of my head examples.
...
What will happen if DarkSun is released for 4ed is that the setting will be adapted to the system, and that will either kill or severely change the setting. The ideal part to preserve the setting would be to adapt the 4ed system to it, and that will not happen.
I hear you, but im kinda hoping they just add stuff instead of leaving out so-called essentials. Actually, im pretty sure that if we only had psionics i could whip up a 4E dark sun game in about an hour without a problem. Goliaths become half-giants, muls use warforged stats, defiling and bone weapons become flavor, ect...
In any case, Muls are infintely better than half-elves because they are not a race of girly-men. In fact, they are pretty much the anti-bishis of 2E.
At least Half-Elves are not doomed to extinction, which is rather sad in itself, really. So, yeah, Muls are better, since they at least make a little more sense in that regard. They still don't even have a reason to life.
Still, quite awesome how you managed to misunderstand me completely, again. Nah, Fanboy, who cares.
At least Half-Elves are not doomed to extinction, which is rather sad in itself, really. So, yeah, Muls are better, since they at least make a little more sense in that regard. They still don't even have a reason to life.
Don't forget the fact that they are not another cliche'd tolkien rip-off. Thats another aspect that makes muls more desirable in the game than the half-elf.
Nah, Fanboy, who cares.
Its funny how i knew knew you were going to resort to calling me "fanboy". You sound just like everyone else who equates "race i don't like" with "must be emo!"
"Race i dont like = emo. People who i dont agree with = fanboy." LOL.
Don't forget the fact that they are not another cliche'd tolkien rip-off. Thats another aspect that makes muls more desirable in the game than the half-elf.
This has to be a joke.
"Race i dont like = emo. People who i dont agree with = fanboy." LOL.
Your ignorance is an insult to people who are suffering from depression. I call you a Fanboy not because I don't like you, really I don't even know you. You are very full of yourself to assume I have any kind of emotion towards you. No, I call you a Fanboy, because of the way you try to defend the Mul for example.
Half-Elves are so Tolkien, and that is bad (srsly, I doubt you even know what half-elves as defined by Tolkien are), let's be different, creative AND original. Half-dwarfs! Awesome! And to finish the deal, let's call them Mul, so you have to think hard to realise that we have invented the square wheel once again.
I did not "LOL", but still am very amused.
You will probably still see the minimalist approach to history and details, leaving things like the composition of organizations, cities, etc. up to the DM.
Remember it's three books and out, one Campaign Guide, one Player's Guide and one adventure book. No Magic of... , Races of... , that all comes from the Core books. Hopefully they will trim back the starting adventure in the CG, as nice as it was to have the Loudwater starter, thirty pages was a little too much.
Bel
...You will probably still see the minimalist approach to history and details, leaving things like the composition of organizations, cities, etc. up to the DM...
So, you mean it will pretty much be like 3.5 Eberron? Awesome... ;)
Bel
As a huge Eberron fan, considering that Eberron's creator has openly stated that 4e is a better for for Eberron than 3e ever was, I promise you: Eberron's fans will largely be pleased with 4e Eberron.
Just stick to the main themes of a desert setting where simple survival is uncertain, those in power oppress and enslave the populace, and magic itself is dangerous, so people have developed fantastic mental powers to compensate, and I think you can rebuild everything else.
You don't need dragon-kings, or avagnions, or thri-kreen, or muls, or gladiators, or elemental clerics.
You don't need dragon-kings...or thri-kreen, or muls, or gladiators, or elemental clerics.
Whatever was wrong with Dark Sun, this stuff wasn't it. The sorcerer/dragon kings, thri-kreen, muls, gladiators, city-states, and elemental clerics were all key and positive elements of Dark Sun.
Have I missed the memo, where they were no longer depressed half-dwarfs? That's as cheap as you can get after Half-Elves.
Cheap, how?
I thought they were expensive slaves? As in, mommy dies giving birth every time, so they're in limited quantities.
Whatever was wrong with Dark Sun, this stuff wasn't it. The sorcerer/dragon kings, thri-kreen, muls, gladiators, city-states, and elemental clerics were all key and positive elements of Dark Sun.
Positive, yes. Key, no.
Positive, yes. Key, no.
I disagree. I think they were both positive, and key. The notion of sorcerer kings ruling city-states was one of the key features of Dark Sun, present from the first boxed set. The strange/alternative races were a fundamental part of what made Dark Sun; the setting was unfamiliar. People being forced to fight in gladiatorial arenas for the entertainment of the sorcerer kings? Pure Dark Sun keystone flavor. That's the sort of mistreatment of the populace that helped classify Dark Sun as a harsh and cruel world. One could choose to deal with the harsh reality of the wilderness, or the harsh reality of the city. Neither environment was safe or kind. And right from the first boxed set the "divine" flavor of standard D&D classes was substituted with something a little more "elemental." I don't agree with you at all. Like or dislike the first set of published books, but the sorcerer/dragon kings, thri-kreen, muls, gladiators, city-states, and elemental clerics were all key and positive elements of Dark Sun.
I asume the FR stuff included Tieflings and Dragonborn (did the Dragonborn race originate in FR or Ebberon?).
Some ineteresting questions have ben raised about 4th ed setting books. Will all the setting have all of the PHB races and classes and just add in some of their own? Or will some settings exclude some PHB races and classes?
I asume the FR stuff included Tieflings and Dragonborn (did the Dragonborn race originate in FR or Ebberon?).
WOTC has an all inclusive mantra now. So everything from everywhere is available in anything and everything.
The new races introduced to FR were put there by the cataclysmic collision of the two worlds. And then they just hand waved Warforged as well they were there the whole time they were just called Gondsmen.
Expect more of the same for DS. Since it has been a whole edition since they supported the setting I would expect large changes to the world. I think all of the settings we will see will be roughly the same but still vastly different than they were originally. With 4th edition being such a different animal than the previous editions they have to make such changes to shoehorn the new edition into the old worlds.
Your ignorance is an insult to people who are suffering from depression. I call you a Fanboy not because I don't like you, really I don't even know you. You are very full of yourself to assume I have any kind of emotion towards you. No, I call you a Fanboy, because of the way you try to defend the Mul for example.
Right, i dont share your point of view on the mul so you resort to loaded terms like "fanboy." I get. We've seen it million times already on these boards in regards to tieflings, shadar-kai, dhampirs, ect...You dont like something and anyone who disagrees is a "fanboy" for defending it.
...let's be different, creative AND original. Half-dwarfs! Awesome! And to finish the deal, let's call them Mul, so you have to think hard to realise that we have invented the square wheel once again.
Muls were part of the unique flavor of the setting and there really isnt anything to be gained by just replacing them with goliaths. That solution surely isnt "different, creative and original." The thing i im seeing is that by writing muls off as an umimaginative half-breed, you're kinda missing the entire context of their place in the setting...a sort of context that the other half-breeds really lacked in other worlds.
Ultimately, Muls are important to Dark Sun since the nature of their creation exphasisies and really almost embodies the harsh nature of the setting. They were a non-viable race of people who were force-bred specifically for slavery and gladatorial combat. Their very existance is a metaphor for the setting as a whole. Other half-breeds in most worlds have much more generic backgrounds and arent nearly as metaphysically bound to the setting they inhabit (not to mention as icon) as the mul is to athas.
As mentioned, Defilers will not be a Player character class. I expect it to be abstracted, and a side effect of monsters and traps rather then a magical side effect.
The Half Races will be tempered and not as plentiful. I also think the mention of being sterile will be gone, and any race will "breed true" like the Half Elf and Half Orc.
I would hope that the Heroes would be from a part of the world where Slavery is seen as the travesty that it is and at least frowned upon, if not illegal to own. This would make other areas be "traditionalists" that would still have those poor victims for the PC's to liberate.
The epic dragonkings (whatever they are) and the silliness involved with it will be the long past, and the epic stupid power gaming won't be inbred in the game like it was in the previous edition.
as an aside, the Thri Kreen might be in a PHB (3?) before the Darksun Player's Guide comes out.
With 4th edition being such a different animal than the previous editions they have to make such changes to shoehorn the old worlds into the new edition
Fixed it for you.
It is very different
Thri-Kreen will probably come with PH3, since they've been ported from Dark Sun to a "Player's Handbook" of sorts before (the Expanded Psionics Handbook; along with the Half-Giants). Thri-Kreen could easily be seen as something from the Darkness of the Wilderness beyond the Points of Light that has become the core setting's fanon name. Half-Giants, as mentioned, are most likely Goliaths. This also would warrant that there will be Constitution or Strength-based Psionic classes (Constitution more likely, considering it's usage back in Incarnum). Muls would be Setting-specific, and there would probably be an article in Dragon dealing with incorporating them into your Eberron, FR, or PoL campaign. PoL would probably be easier, since it's less defined on a worldly scale. They might also update a race from the MM, MM2, or MM3 that fits the setting. FR did this with Drow, and Eberron will be doing this with both a fuller-than-full write-up on the Warforged as well as the highly probably Doppelgängers, reflavoured as a PC race called Changelings (heavily inferred in The Gnome, the Bad, and the Ugly). Since the races in the back of MM1 are mostly standard fantasy fare, with the exception of certain races already covered (assuming, again, that Doppelgängers are in the EPG), we're probably getting a race from the upcoming MM2 or even the MM3, should it's release follow about the same time next year as MM2 this year (a month before the CS and 2 months before the PG).
Templars could be a style like in Martial Power 2, the Gladiator Article, the Assassin Article, etc. However, they could also be reflavoured or a new build for the Avenger, considering their dubious alignment / zealousness and their assassin-qualities.
Just my three cents on the whole adaptation of Dark Sun to 4e.
I disagree. I think they were both positive, and key. The notion of sorcerer kings ruling city-states was one of the key features of Dark Sun, present from the first boxed set. The strange/alternative races were a fundamental part of what made Dark Sun; the setting was unfamiliar. People being forced to fight in gladiatorial arenas for the entertainment of the sorcerer kings? Pure Dark Sun keystone flavor. That's the sort of mistreatment of the populace that helped classify Dark Sun as a harsh and cruel world. One could choose to deal with the harsh reality of the wilderness, or the harsh reality of the city. Neither environment was safe or kind. And right from the first boxed set the "divine" flavor of standard D&D classes was substituted with something a little more "elemental." I don't agree with you at all. Like or dislike the first set of published books, but the sorcerer/dragon kings, thri-kreen, muls, gladiators, city-states, and elemental clerics were all key and positive elements of Dark Sun.
Much as I hate to agree with Lawyer-Dave ;) the developers went to great lengths to make every aspect of DarkSun as distinct and flavorful as possible - the setting broke so many 'rules' and experimented with what could be done that inevitably some things didn't work out as well as they might - the community for example never managed to settle on how defiling really worked or how it should be expressed in game mechanics - in the end, its drawn the community to speculate, suggest and generally be more involved over the years.
To that end I'm disappointed at the many posts that suggest future development (by professional developers with the full backing of a decades-old specialist company) will 'just use' creatures and content that already exist purely to save them the trouble of making anything distinctive or purposeful and ease the dramatic stress on players from having to read or imagine anything beyond their tiny comfort zones.
I'd be curious to see if they attempt to integrate Dragonborn and Tieflings into Dark Sun, and how they would do it (Dragonborn wouldn't be so hard with Dregoth's Dray, but not sure how Tiefling would fit in).
My wishlist:
I think the campaign should wind time back five to fifty years prior to the books. DM's then don't have to worry about the events of the book unless they want to or the players could even take the place of the book heroes, freeing the Tyr region themselves. Besides, in my opinion the 2E "revised" edition was somewhat inferior to the original - especially with the areas beyond the Tyr valley that it opened up (it seemed like a lot of the mystery and DM's ability to customize the area went away in the revised add-on books).
Psionics are going to be a must, and having a few elemental classes out probably wouldn't hurt either. I'm not quite sure about how the supposed "wild psionic talents" everyone is suppose to have would be implemented, but I'd hate to see it completely disregarded.
I'd like to see a gladiator class, but a fighter paragon path would work well enough (something along the lines of Pit Fighter, I guess). Definitely would like to see a Templar class, though.
I don't think Cleric is going to be a problem; just create some powers to replace "thunder" and "radiant" powers with elemental powers for the purists and let everyone else just use what they want. If I were writing the campaign books, I'd probably put a sidebar for those who want to be "purists" about not putting in paladins, as well as some ideas for reflavoring them for Athas. Same handling as perhaps the cleric for retooling the bard to fit the original description of the bard for Athas.
Defiling should probably be handled like spellscarred. Assume all Wizard PCs are preservers, and with a few tweaks can be made into defilers. While I know this this seems backwards, I think to represent the "easy draw of power" of defiling is to make it grant advantages.
Personally, I'd like to see all the player races back - Thri-kreen, muls and half-giants, at least. While Goliaths could work in the place of half-giants, I'd just like to see them do a Large PC and make it work. Also, gotta have options (feats/powers) for making the "standard" races more savage - cannibalistic halflings, desert-running backstabbing elves, dwarves with life oaths and all that.
The easiest way to handle bone and obisidian weapons would be similar to the way armor is done in the PHB. For example, in the PHB you have Plate Mail, Warplate Armor and Godplate Armor - so instead, you'd have something like Bone Dagger, Obsidian Dagger, Steel Dagger. The Bone Dagger would have +3 Prof/1d4 damage, the Obisidian Dagger maybe +3 Prof/1d6 damage (min enhancement +4) and the Steel Dagger +3 Prof/1d8 damage (minimum enhancement +6). Is this similar to how Crag Hammers work?
I'd also like to throw in that in addition to the mentioned epic destinies, to add two more - Sorcerer King (even though all the sorcerer kings are dragons, the Sorcerer King is more about settling down to rule than desiring to become a dragon) and Preserver - for those who don't meet the qualifications to become an Avangion, but seek to return Athas to its blue age.
* Play whatever you like! In Darksun Gnomes for example died out and if now the Feywild joined with Athas and Gnomes are fludding into the deserts, then I am afraid Darksun is going to loose a lot of it's old charm.
* Balance everything! In Darksun the Defilers were stronger than the preservers. Invailability of steel weapons also contributed to a imbalance.
This list is far from complete.
If I were to decide which setting would come out next year, I would have independant developer teams working on each of the candidates for next years campaign world and would choose the one that looks the most promissing before Gencon. The rest will have to wait at least another year or be released in bite-sized bits in the dragon. Also this way the information about the actual game setting can't leak, because it doesn't exist.
That, and the various new material types (bone, glass, etc) will have up to -3 to damage.
WOTC has an all inclusive mantra now. So everything from everywhere is available in anything and everything.
The new races introduced to FR were put there by the cataclysmic collision of the two worlds. And then they just hand waved Warforged as well they were there the whole time they were just called Gondsmen.
Expect more of the same for DS. Since it has been a whole edition since they supported the setting I would expect large changes to the world. I think all of the settings we will see will be roughly the same but still vastly different than they were originally. With 4th edition being such a different animal than the previous editions they have to make such changes to shoehorn the new edition into the old worlds.
Why is this a bad thing? If I wanted the same old stuff Id use the old books. New eddition=changes duh. What a concept. Id love to see a truly reimagined darksun that keeps most of the spirit of the old one.
Expect more of the same for DS. Since it has been a whole edition since they supported the setting I would expect large changes to the world. I think all of the settings we will see will be roughly the same but still vastly different than they were originally. With 4th edition being such a different animal than the previous editions they have to make such changes to shoehorn the new edition into the old worlds.
Oooooooor they could set the books in the Green Age, during the genocides that eliminated so many races.
Oooooooor they could set the books in the Green Age, during the genocides that eliminated so many races.
Now that would be an unusual and unique take on Dark Sun. I would definitley look at getting that book.
* Play whatever you like! In Darksun Gnomes for example died out and if now the Feywild joined with Athas and Gnomes are fludding into the deserts, then I am afraid Darksun is going to loose a lot of it's old charm.
If the still green areas were moved to, lets say, a plane called The Green, that was a savage jungle reflection of Athas (just as deadly, but hot and wet instead of hot and dry!), and Gnomes somewhat took the place of 2e Halflings, I don't think I'd be heartbroken.
* Balance everything! In Darksun the Defilers were stronger than the preservers. Invailability of steel weapons also contributed to a imbalance.
This list is far from complete.
That's simple. You just put a sufficient price on defiling to balance it. Look at Dark Pact Warlocks as an example. And for weapon materials, the solution is simple: on Toril a longsword is made of steel, but on Athas it's made of bone. It's still a +3 prof 1d8 versitile weapon. Material doesn't have to be anything but cosmetic.
Why is this a bad thing? If I wanted the same old stuff Id use the old books. New eddition=changes duh. What a concept. Id love to see a truly reimagined darksun that keeps most of the spirit of the old one.
Its not a bad thing for me. I could care less one way or the other. But the fanboys of DS just like the fanboys of FR are going to pitch a fit about it.
We will have countless threads of how they ruined DS etc etc etc
For the purpose of transitioning the change in magic, I'd like to see something involving the reason the gods abandoned Athas written into the advancing story.
Also, more new areas to explore. Perhaps there are more dragons other than Borys that popped up after the genocide wars. Maybe some or all of them are involved in keeping gods, primordials, and fiends out of the world.
Imagine the chaos that would erupt if just one avatar of a forgotten deity showed up at the sorceror king's doorstep.
Oooooooor they could set the books in the Green Age, during the genocides that eliminated so many races.
Oooooooor, they could have a detailed, largish chapter each about the Blue, Green, "Brown" (Age of Sorcerer-Kings) and "Heroic" Age. :D Dark Sun has a lot of variety, not merely harsh survival tales.
It has primitive sentients beginning to explore their young world, some insect-like, others humanoid, amidst countless islands on a world of mostly water (pre-Blue Age).
It has high-"tech" ocean adventure, with sprawling cities both above and below the waves, and a ton of unexplored fluff to flesh out with a regards to a world-spanning civilization of immense technological skill and knowledge (the Blue Age).
It has a second primal time during which a multitude of new races spread out and explore an increasingly lush world for the first time, all at once, with many relics and ruins of ancient wonder all around (the transition from Blue to Green Age).
It has high fantasy, but with added layers of potential intrigue, what with arcane and divine magic being replaced during that age mostly with potent psionics, and the occasional elemental priest or druid (the Green Age).
It has an era of genocidal war engulfing the world, races being wiped to the last individual across the globe, and the magic fueling the war is simultaneously destroying the world (the transition from Green Age to the Age of Sorcerer-Kings)
Finally, it then has the harsh desert age, the world already ravaged, and the survivors forced to deal with the aftermath or perish, and the focus of the first and second edition of the setting (The "modern" setting, during the Age of Heroes).
So, yeah, ideally they'd detail the older eras much more, give ideas for what lives in each age or transitional time, and give us a lot to work with as players and DMs alike.
Since there are no "break on striking" rules for wooden weapons such as clubs or staffs in the core rules, I think that something like a bone sword would just have a lower DC to break and have a different cost. No extra paperwork necessary.
For the purpose of transitioning the change in magic, I'd like to see something involving the reason the gods abandoned Athas written into the advancing story.
As far as the "behind the screen" DM-centric information provided by the original setting, there have NEVER been gods on Athas. They didn't abandon Athas at all, they simply never existed on that world whatsoever. They also chose to never try, because they are cut off from the power their followers provide them with worship. Going to Athas is very, very dangerous for an actual deity.
As far as the "behind the screen" DM-centric information provided by the original setting, there have NEVER been gods on Athas. They didn't abandon Athas at all, they simply never existed on that world whatsoever.
Actually, that is not 100% confirmed, there were Dark Sun modules and accessories that hinted at forgotten/abandoned gods (temples/shrines and what have you).
Actually, that is not 100% confirmed, there were Dark Sun modules and accessories that hinted at forgotten/abandoned gods (temples/shrines and what have you).
Yes, there were lost temples, etc. However, the DM-centric specifically and explicitly said those temples are to gods that never actually had divine power. Yes, people worshiped them. Yes, religions popped up. No, their clerics were never granted power from those "gods".
Yes, there were lost temples, etc. However, the DM-centric specifically and explicitly said those temples are to gods that never actually had divine power. Yes, people worshiped them. Yes, religions popped up. No, their clerics were never granted power from those "gods".
Right on, but might there be elemental beings that provide spells to the clerics?
Right on, but might there be elemental beings that provide spells to the clerics?
I thought thats where clerics got their powers from in darksun. Ooh new idea for darksun. Its a world that the Titans wrested control from the Gods. Hence why clerics are elemental instead of divine. It would be a pretty cool change, and fit into the Cosmonology of 4e.
I thought thats where clerics got their powers from in darksun. Ooh new idea for darksun. Its a world that the Titans wrested control from the Gods. Hence why clerics are elemental instead of divine. It would be a pretty cool change, and fit into the Cosmonology of 4e.
Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. As you say, it would mesh nicely with both the new and old fluff, satisfying old-schoolers and newcomers alike.
They might also update a race from the MM, MM2, or MM3 that fits the setting. FR did this with Drow, and Eberron will be doing this with both a fuller-than-full write-up on the Warforged as well as the highly probably Doppelgängers, reflavoured as a PC race called Changelings (heavily inferred in The Gnome, the Bad, and the Ugly). Since the races in the back of MM1 are mostly standard fantasy fare, with the exception of certain races already covered (assuming, again, that Doppelgängers are in the EPG), we're probably getting a race from the upcoming MM2 or even the MM3, should it's release follow about the same time next year as MM2 this year (a month before the CS and 2 months before the PG).
From what I've read here (not familiar with setting), are the mul half-dwarves?
Could they be considered duergar, by chance? That race fits for Psionics and will have a write-up in MM2. very curious on that.
Yes, there were lost temples, etc. However, the DM-centric specifically and explicitly said those temples are to gods that never actually had divine power. Yes, people worshiped them. Yes, religions popped up. No, their clerics were never granted power from those "gods".
If I recall correctly, Dragon Kings explained this.
Basically it went like this: The gods were lost/gone/disappeared/stopped granting divine power.
When the Sorcerer Kings arose, and were worshiped as gods, they managed to create the Astral conduits (by accident) necessary to grant divine spells. Similarly, the Elemental powers were able to do the same thing / had already had done the same thing.
New advanced beings of sufficient power (including new Dragon Kings, Avangions, and Elementals) couldn't create the Astral conduits necessary for divine followers. I don't remember the reason given, other than "it's not possible." Additionally, part of the reason for the ongoing lack of gods was due to the inability to create the necessary Astral conduits to grant power.
However, I could be forgetting some important details. When I am not at work, I'll check my Dragon Kings book and find the info. I know there were also non-god "gods" that never existed as you mentioned. But Dragon Kings said there was actual gods at some point in time. If you have an actual citation to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.
Lets not forget the other advanced beings: Elementals. Basically Elemental Priest 20/Psion 20 had the opportunity to become the Elemental version of Dragons and Avangions. I loved the flavor.
As for the people mentioning that defiler should be default for PC wizards (or arcane casters), let me point out that defilers in 2e had the thief's xp curve, not the mage xp curve. (That is to say it took a defiler half the exp to gain the equivalent level to a mage, and the "default" mage was, by extension, a preserver.)
Also keep in mind that 4e did away with the 1 skill penalty to casters. Kinda dumb to reinflict a penalty on arcanists for flavor reasons.
I'd be fine with PCs defaulting to preserver and NPCs defaulting to defilers. (Keeping in mind 4e's philosophy of PCs and NPCs are *different*.) Defiling is still "easier" but PC arcanists had teachers that taught the PC better than to use defiling magic.
If you wanted to *play* a PC defiler, a feat, series of feats, or multiclass option (like styles and spellscarred) to increase the power of arcane abilities would fit the setting and the power difference between a preserving or defiling arcanist.
I also vote for the Dragons, Avangions, and Elementals to be Epic Destinies. Maybe with a required paragon path that leads in that direction?
Not really sure what I would suggest for the divine stuff. With the existence of the Primal power source, the divine stuff could really take a hike and be replaced wholesale. This only gets worse when we add the Elemental power source.
But, I also agree that 4e is more about inclusion than exclusion.
I'd be fine if both gnomes and halflings were cannibals. (Occupying different regions, maybe?)
Goliaths as Muls, I like. Especially if you ditch the half dwarf bit. Goliaths also fit the elemental theme of Athas. (This would be an acceptable 4e twist along the lines of the Deva.)
Tieflings and Dragonborn could be abominations created by a Sorcerer King. (Wasn't there a SK that liked doing the standard NPC wizard monster creation thing?)
Deva would fit nicely as the (possible) fallen angels that failed and the gods were pushed out due to their ineptitude.
Genasi would fit as the elemental version of Deva, perhaps. Or elemental scions, as is.
Ooooh, or Dragonborn and Genasi are the natural born children of Dragons and Elementals, maybe?
Just a few ideas to throw into the pot...
Side Trek:
The best theory I ever saw about the formation of Darksun was that it used to be Toril. Compare place names on the original map to regions and places in Faerun. My favorite was the Anarouch.
There was an artifact in the 2e Book of Artifacts that stole a deity's power. Roll bad enough on the chart, and you could lock a deity out of that world. If a powerful wizard got ahold of this artifact, that would certainly carve the way for the first Sorcerer King.
Yeah, it was a stretch, but considering the cataclysms that Toril likes to go through, it's not impossible.
From what I've read here (not familiar with setting), are the mul half-dwarves?
Could they be considered duergar, by chance? That race fits for Psionics and will have a write-up in MM2. very curious on that.
Yes, Mul were half human/dwarves breed in the slave pits for their strength and endless stamina. But something about human/dwarf hybridization makes them sterile.
Right on, but might there be elemental beings that provide spells to the clerics?
In essence the greater elemental beings had taken over for the gods. Which if you factor in 4E's primordial plot points, isn't that big of a leap logically.
If I recall correctly, Dragon Kings explained this.
Basically it went like this: The gods were lost/gone/disappeared/stopped granting divine power.
When the Sorcerer Kings arose, and were worshiped as gods, they managed to create the Astral conduits (by accident) necessary to grant divine spells. Similarly, the Elemental powers were able to do the same thing / had already had done the same thing.
I found what I was looking for; I was both right and wrong. An excerpt talking about the original 7 sorcerer-kings.
Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited elemental magic. Though they couldn't tap the power themselves, the sorcerer-kings could impart that power to their followers, the templars. The end result was clear, but why this transference of power became possible, even to the sorcerer-kings.
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing spells, the sorcerer-kings attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planecs and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funneled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists.
It goes on to explain that the living vortices have gone extinct, so no more of the nifty linkage.
I'll keep digging for information about the other stuff.
Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. As you say, it would mesh nicely with both the new and old fluff, satisfying old-schoolers and newcomers alike.
Yup I think it would work.
What if avatars or aspects of deities/archdevils/demon lords from another world invade Athas, bringing with them their followers and worshippers? What if they end up being cut off from their greater selves? This might put them on par with the sorceror kings and introduce a new element to the warfare that is typically prevalent in the setting. Alliances could be forged and epic battles could be fought between gods and "pretenders".
The Dark Sun cleric could become a new class with the elemental power source and the divine cleric wouldn't need any changes.
Dark Sun was after all introduced as a "world at war" setting.
I'm thinking something akin to the god-kings in Forgotten Realms...Powerful but not "all-powerful"...
So have there been any hints dropped as to whether or not the new setting will be Dark Sun 4.0?
The aprils fools one metioned defilers and one of the goliath minis coming out has an obsidian sword.
The point is there havent been any hints that its something else either. Ive seen nothing that would idicate DL, Mystara, or Grey Hawk.
Which to me means the two hints we have for Dark Sun are really indicative.
I think it might be bigger than the contest that brought in Ebberon because there are perhaps a lot more new players due to the advent of 4th edition.
If not, well Dark Sun would be the likely choice to support Psionics, and the next setting after that should be one that supports Elemental (?).
Eberron is a good gateway to interest in Psionics and Dark Sun is what lies beyond the gate. PHB 2 will feature the Psionic power source. It makes marketing sense.
The Dark Sun Player's Guide can introduce Elemental with one class, inspiring interest in PHB 3 and possibly the next setting that feature the Elemental power source.
I predict that we'll see Dark Sun (my guess for '10) and Greyhawk, and maybe Dragonlance. Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape have pretty much been folded into the default setting. I haven't the slightest about Mystara or Birthright - they don't seem to be all that popular, comparatively, though I certainly wouldn't mind seeing them get the 4e treatment - and any other settings I can think of are sub-settings of others (Hollow-World or Al-Qadim, to name a few).
As for PHB3 power sources - If that year's setting is DS, then we'll see psionics and elemental, plus some ki, as confirmed through the Monk class. I'd guess a 4 psi / 2 elemental / 2 ki split, making PHB4 4 shadow / 2 elemental / 2 ki.
Anyways, that's my two crowns.
Wizards has the two settings that were runner-up to Eberron - the ones by Rich Burlew and Phillip Nathan-Toomey.
I'd very much like to see these at some point.
I think that if Dark Sun is confirmed for 2010, then it would be great to announce a contest the same year for a new original setting to be introduced in 2011.
I think it might be bigger than the contest that brought in Ebberon because there are perhaps a lot more new players due to the advent of 4th edition.
If not, well Dark Sun would be the likely choice to support Psionics, and the next setting after that should be one that supports Elemental (?).
Eberron is a good gateway to interest in Psionics and Dark Sun is what lies beyond the gate. PHB 2 will feature the Psionic power source. It makes marketing sense.
The Dark Sun Player's Guide can introduce Elemental with one class, inspiring interest in PHB 3 and possibly the next setting that feature the Elemental power source.
A new contest would be pretty cool. But yeah after darksun I want something original.
Here are some predictions for the Player's Guide.
New Races: Mul, Thri-kreen, 1 other race
New Classes: Defiler (environmental destruction rules for Swordmages and Wizards), Elemental Cleric (alternate Channel Divinity feature + new elemental cleric powers), Elemental Warlock (new warlock pact)
My prediction is that Defiler will be a paragon path, not a class, and what you call "elemental cleric" and "elemental Warlock" would be the whatever are named the leader and striker of Elemental power source.
Reqs: Lvl 21, Hybrid Cleric/Wizard MC Psion OR Hybrid Wizard/Psion MC Cleric OR Hybrid Cleric/Psion MC Wizard.
Powers:
You are Evil.
You are Omnipotent.
End.
in Dragon 373:
'James Wyatt and Rich Baker are getting ready to launch into next year’s campaign setting, which I know is going to surprise and delight many of you out there. I’ll start dropping hints about the setting over the next few columns, and we’ll see how many of you can figure out what’s coming.'
Then, just a few lines below they show the power card for 'Foe to Foe' featuring a picture of that Goliath mini with the Obsidian Sword.
In Dragon 374, Ampersand previews the divine domain rules. Seems like these rules give an easy roadmap to get around having gods in a setting, yet still have generic Clerics. (i.e. Cleric of Justice, ect ...) There also seems to be some potential for a slick way to implement Elemental clerics here.
I'm not sure I see any real hint in Dragon 375's Ampersand. It does seem that monster themes fit well specifically in the setting. With that setting's habit of converting every monster/race into a supercharged version of itself, I can see the Campaign book having a chapter dedicated to some specific Dark Sun themes for monsters...
Add that onto the other clues( likely inclusion of Psionics in PHB3, the 4E Dark Sun article in Dragon) and I'm convinced....
(of course, this could all be wishful thinking... :P )
Red
With Psionics confirmed for PHB3 I think it is Dark Sun for the win in 2010.
Red
Since when did Dark Sun become synonymous with Psionics?
Just because they are heavily featured does not mean they are exclusive.
Since when did Dark Sun become synonymous with Psionics?
Just because they are heavily featured does not mean they are exclusive.
It makes sense to release a Psionic-heavy setting in the year that psionics are released.
It doesn't guarantee it. But its a pretty good sign.
It makes sense to release a Psionic-heavy setting in the year that psionics are released.
It doesn't guarantee it. But its a pretty good sign.
Following that logic we should have seen a Primal-centric CS this year. We did not. Quite the opposite actually.
Could it possibly be that the CSs are independent of what was released that year? Plus, we still don't know what the other classes will be in the PHB3, we could get any number of things. So far all we know is that at least ONE class in the PHB3 is psionic, nothing else, PERIOD.Following that logic we should have seen a Primal-centric CS this year. We did not. Quite the opposite actually.
The only reason we don't apply that logic to this year is because Wizards still has very pertinent release priorities. It doesn't matter that Eberron and Primal Classes were released simultaneously, because setting-matching with themed classes is trumped by their dire need to get the primal classes out there and update Eberron for the new setting, something people were crying out for desperately.
So far all we know is that at least ONE class in the PHB3 is psionic, nothing else, PERIOD.
Oh, come on now. What is there to possibly indicate that it won't be called "Players Handbook 3: Psionic Heroes". There's no other power source that takes priority over psionics right now.
Oh, come on now. What is there to possibly indicate that it won't be called "Players Handbook 3: Psionic Heroes". There's no other power source that takes priority over psionics right now.
The real question lies in whether or not such a product would sell if it was made in that way. The same goes for Dark Sun. Many people have brought up that the designers would like to try their hand at producing a 4e version of it. That is fine, but does Hasbro (the guys ultimately in charge) think that Dark Sun will be a good business investment. Since Dark Sun hasn't had an official product in well over a decade, it might be a hard sell to the big wigs, especially considering that the last product was produced long before the end of 2nd Edition's lifecycle. Sales figures on the rereleased Prism Pentad might influence that decision, if it sells well, it could make Dark Sun seem like a good idea. If it is a poor seller, Dark Sun might seem to be a poor choice.
What I am saying I guess is Wizards of the Coast is a business not a kewl factory.
What I am saying I guess is Wizards of the Coast is a business not a kewl factory.
WotC only published 2 settings for 3.5e and they updated those first. Also if there was a pre-existing Primal setting I'm sure we would have seen that close to when the Primal source was released.
Also the races important to FR (Half-Orcs and Gnomes) were published in the following PHB. Eberron has psionics in a prominent position and in PHB3 we see psionics.
Could it possibly be that what appears in a PHBs is connected to the CS? Definitely.
I also pointed out Dark Sun isn't definite. But this is a good sign it will be. Because I doubt very much we would have seen Dark Sun without any psionic classes released first.
Following that logic we should have seen a Primal-centric CS this year. We did not. Quite the opposite actually.
Uh ..... do you know anything about Eberron? At all? The entire point of the Primal classes in 4e is Primal vs Far Realm/Aberrations. What's one of the major themes of Eberron? That the Far Realms/Aberrations are the ENEMY. What's one of the major organizations of Eberron? The Gatekeepers, a bunch of Druids who banished the Aberrations in the first place. What's one of the Druid PPs? Guardian of the Living Gate, who's entire purpose is keeping out Aberrants.
Not to mention that Bards, Gnomes, and Half-Orcs all are big parts of Eberron. The Invoker and Avenger are perfect for the Eberron religions/churches. And no one wants to bring up the Deva vs Kalashtar debate, do we?
So to say that the PH2 has nothing to do with Eberron, or that Eberron isn't as much a "Primal-centric" CS as Dark Sun would be for Psionics, is either ignorant of what Eberron is about, or is misunderstanding how connected they have to be.
So to say that the PH2 has nothing to do with Eberron, or that Eberron isn't as much a "Primal-centric" CS as Dark Sun would be for Psionics, is either ignorant of what Eberron is about, or is misunderstanding how connected they have to be.
True, but the argument isn't totally with out merit. It's obvious they are trying setting and power sources together in order to allow the later Setting book for the year to cover as much ground as possible. So while Eberron could do just fine with out Primal powers...it would be missing a large part of it's story working space until that issue was addressed. And the full write up on the Shifters also gives you something to work with as well.
True, but the argument isn't totally with out merit. It's obvious they are trying setting and power sources together in order to allow the later Setting book for the year to cover as much ground as possible. So while Eberron could do just fine with out Primal powers...it would be missing a large part of it's story working space until that issue was addressed. And the full write up on the Shifters also gives you something to work with as well.
There's one other thing as well - the other power source(s) in PH3. We know that Ki is dead, so that's out. So, assuming that WotC doesn't just make more Martial/Arcane/Divine/Primal classes (and I really hope they don't, we don't need any more), and assuming that the new classes are not exclusively Psionic, that just leaves Shadow and Elemental. And IMO the only settings with a stronger tie to Shadow than Dark Sun is Forgotten Realms and Birthright, and no other setting has a stronger tie to Elemental powers.
There's one other thing as well - the other power source(s) in PH3. We know that Ki is dead, so that's out. So, assuming that WotC doesn't just make more Martial/Arcane/Divine/Primal classes (and I really hope they don't, we don't need any more), and assuming that the new classes are not exclusively Psionic, that just leaves Shadow and Elemental. And IMO the only settings with a stronger tie to Shadow than Dark Sun is Forgotten Realms and Birthright, and no other setting has a stronger tie to Elemental powers.
I was unaware that they took out Ki until I saw your post and checked out the Monk playtest.
I'm a little disappointed.
I was unaware that they took out Ki until I saw your post and checked out the Monk playtest.
I'm a little disappointed.
On second thought I am no longer disapointed. Putting all asian classes in a single power source is a little racist.
Now I can see an Oriental type setting as more tenable, with psionic Monks and Soulblades, shadow ninjas, martial samurai fighter builds, etc. Makes a lot more sense (and variety) in my mind.
I think we are in a really good possition for DS as the next CS. Eberon is a primal centric champaign witht he rework of primal as keeping out the aberations. and I also think that the possibility of shadow/psionic/elemental is a good mix for adding in the last power source that make eberron more whole and giving DS all the tools it needs to become the next CS. Elemental is very tied to the DS setting as well as Psionics and since they will probably try to make the setting fit more closely with the core of D&D then the grey and black can fit with shadow and the shadowfell.
Just my 2 cents.
Red
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Greyhawk?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Harn being purchased for publication by WOTC?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Dark Sun?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Eberron?
Thats the fun thing about speculation, you can throw as much &^%$ against the wall with the hopes that something will stick.
givin that the campaign choices are limited, this of course assumes that the next CS will be from already existing worlds. Given that WoTC wishes to do things new and exciting. This can be seen as both a survival mechanism in a business world that is growing smaller with our shrinking economy and the treand in new and exciting approach to your favorite game that WoTC is currently showing us it seems lickly that DS is the next world. Most of the capaign worlds already produced can be played no with little effort or just need something small like a dragon magazine article to make them viable. the question becomes what is exciting enough and different enough to get people excited about D&D?
Greyhawk will not be seen for awhile because it is possible to play GH now without having to get a new campaign guide. It is also a high fantacy setting which forgotten realms already gives us, nothing new and exciting there.
Harn is another example and if WoTC is going ot buy something new or publish something new, it will be somthing that will give excitment to the game.
Birthright has a unique mechanic in the rule the kingdom thing but it is not exciting enough to not be done in a dragon magazine article and be usable for every game world out currently.
Planscape has a lot of material out right now, it just isn't called plainscape, and more comming in DMG2. It can be played as is right now and doesn't need much.
Spell jammer is the same the ship was mostly what was needed and several capiang worlds to visit. With MM2 giving us more githyanki and such you could play this camapaign as it stands.
Dragon lance is a viable option but I see it as a next year CS due to its popularity comes mainly from the novels and not the playabel setting itself. This makes a great 3rd party licensed product and Wies and Hickman have their own publishing company, so 2 + 2.
Maztica/Kura Tur/Al Quadim are mostly unique settings because of the environment that the present. Enviromental settings are not so much new in the sice that they are something truly unique but new in the since of I can go to this unique environment in any of my campaign worlds, so I don't neccesarrily need to have a campaign based on that environment. In fact all three of thesee setting are a part of the forgotten realsm which already has it CS. I would see these as a part of the location serries and not given CS treatment.
Ravenloft great genre that can be played anywherre and nothing unique ot the world but the setting itself. once agian something that would be great for a location book but not a full CS.
Mysteria and Red sword(?) are both normal campaign worlds and once again nothing new and exciting there.
This leaves the CS's that I feel takes the excitment of D&D, is unique in setting and as a world setting itself and takes the current treand bieng used in the core system and wraps it all into one pacage. That's Dark Sun.
just my 2 cents,
red
I dont have the info but I am sure that someone will. What settings were published by WOTC in 3.x? Not looking for 3rd party updates but stuff WOTC did.
I know these 4:
Dragonlance
Eberron
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
I just find it more likely for them to do a setting that they have kept around and published themselves thru the editions.
I would feel a lot better about Darksun's chances had David Noonan not been laid off by WOTC.
I dont have the info but I am sure that someone will. What settings were published by WOTC in 3.x? Not looking for 3rd party updates but stuff WOTC did.
I know these 4:
Dragonlance
Eberron
Forgotten Realms
Greyhawk
I just find it more likely for them to do a setting that they have kept around and published themselves thru the editions.
They said the new setting will be a happy surprise. None of the ones you mentioned would be that, hahaha.
They said the new setting will be a happy surprise. None of the ones you mentioned would be that, hahaha.
The problem is is that fans of Setting X would all find Setting X's release as a happy surprise. Where as others would either not be happy or could care less. I just dont see any former setting as a happy surprise or a surprise for that matter.
I would fall in the "could care less" camp except for Eberron and Spelljammer the settings I despise.
Wizards released DragonLance? I thought the authors did under license.
This is a common misconception. The CS was an official Wizards of the Coast product, published by Wizards of the Coast. Everything following that was a official licensed product produced and published by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions.
This is a common misconception. The CS was an official Wizards of the Coast product, published by Wizards of the Coast. Everything following that was a official licensed product produced and published by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions.
So who exactly brought the Fifth Age about?
So who exactly brought the Fifth Age about?
TSR
So who exactly brought the Fifth Age about?
As CelticMutt put it, TSR was the main driving force behind that. The 5th Age is set following the Dragons of the Summer Flame novel. TSR wanted a setting to be the flagship for their SAGA gaming system, they chose Dragonlance. Thus, the 5th Age boxed set was released. This all happened in the mid-to-late 1990s.
Dragonlance could be stated to be the first 3.5e official D&D campaign setting, if you think about it. FR and GH were released under 3.0, though FR was eventually updated to 3.5e through other sourcebooks, namely the Player's Guide to Faerun.
Ultimately, given the situation that is evolving in the DL novel series, Dragonlance could see an update much like Forgotten Realms did, with a time jump. Another option for Dragonlance would be a reboot back to the 4th Age. There are a lot of options available to it.
As CelticMutt put it, TSR was the main driving force behind that. The 5th Age is set following the Dragons of the Summer Flame novel. TSR wanted a setting to be the flagship for their SAGA gaming system, they chose Dragonlance. Thus, the 5th Age boxed set was released. This all happened in the mid-to-late 1990s.
1996 in fact. Or at least that's when the Saga set was published. Which I think is about 2 - 3 years before WotC took over.
What sort of cosmology did Dark Sun have, and how well would it work with the new 'universal' cosmology of 4e?
Dragging the thread back on topic for a moment, if I may...
What sort of cosmology did Dark Sun have, and how well would it work with the new 'universal' cosmology of 4e?
Well in Dark Sun there were no gods. They couldn't create divine conduits or some such thing so they couldn't gain power from followers.
This is where the Elemental's, Sorcerer Kings and other thing that I don't recall step in. They effectively took the place of the gods. At least that's my understanding.
My guess though, under 4th ed, Elemental's will probably change to Primodial's.
Dragging the thread back on topic for a moment, if I may...
What sort of cosmology did Dark Sun have, and how well would it work with the new 'universal' cosmology of 4e?
Part of the problem here... Gods where banished from Dark Sun. A poster mentioned about an article on how to exclude gods and still have clerics earlier in the thread.
Dragging the thread back on topic for a moment, if I may...
What sort of cosmology did Dark Sun have, and how well would it work with the new 'universal' cosmology of 4e?
As I recall:
No gods
No access to the Outer Planes (read: Astral Sea) - but I *think* they still had access to the Astral & Ethereal Planes, so the Astral Sea could still work
Strong connection to the Inner/Elemental Planes (read: Elemental Chaos)
Had it's own shadow demi-plane (read Shadowfell)
No fey connection, so no Feywild (all the fey races except elves (which weren't fey then) were wiped out in a war of genocide by the Dragon Kings)
Clerics gained spells from elemental beings, Templars from their Dragon Kings, Druids from the land/elements (easy Primal connection there)
So the cosmology isn't 100% different, and pretty much completely compatible with 4e with just a few readjustments. And the lack of gods is easily fixable with the Domain stuff coming in Divine Power. And possibly with one of the Elemental source classes if a)The Elemental Source still exists (unlike Ki) and b) it will be in PH3.
There was a Domain of Dread (Ravenloft campaign setting) from Athas. (So again, Shadowfell.) If I recall, it was created by one of the first Dragon Kings who was seduced by the Dark Powers.
Elemental Clerics = Elemental
Templars = Divine
As for setting, how about having the world finally start to break apart? Each geographic region gets it's own plane.
Defilers = Shadow
Elemental Clerics = Elemental
Templars = Divine
As for setting, how about having the world finally start to break apart? Each geographic region gets it's own plane.
Elemental is likely going to get lumped into Arcane. Hell, look at the Wild Mage Sorcerer. They get their power from the Elemental Chaos and even have a paragon path where they channel the power of Primordials. Now if that is not part of the Elemental power source then nothing is.
Honestly, if any setting needs a reboot, it's Dark Sun. It's the only campaign setting where the very first novels managed to completely screw it up.
The first four books of the Prism Pentad novel are great. The last one should be burned and forgotten.
"
Heck for that matter Psionics has been a part of Greyhawk and Harn (non-D&D world) for instance far longer than Dark Sun or Eberron.
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Greyhawk?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Harn being purchased for publication by WOTC?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Dark Sun?
So does the presence of Psionics lead us to Eberron?
Thats the fun thing about speculation, you can throw as much &^%$ against the wall with the hopes that something will stick.
Except psionics are central to Dark Sun (taking up effectively the same spot that arcane magic has in other settings), and has a much more significant presence in Eberron than it does in more classic settings (an entire player race devoted to it as a theme, an entire continent). You're right that it's always had a presence in Greyhawk, but that has more to do with the fact that Greyhawk was the original generic D&D setting... and psionics have always had a presence in D&D as a whole (Greyhawk basically reflecting that).
With PHB3, they will have effectively released all of the classic D&D class concepts (arcane, divine, psionic and primal). Dark Sun looks like a good candidate, because not only does it primarily use those classic D&D class concepts, but it does so in a way that is rather unique compared to other D&D settings (arcane magic is rare and world-destroying, psionics is everywhere, no gods, even NPCs are big damn heroes because everyone who wasn't a big damn hero died off). I think they're gonna pick Dark Sun because of how different it is in comparison. Forgotten Realms does High Fantasy, and Eberron does Pulp... Ravenloft is part of the core cosmology, as is Planescape and Spelljammer (albeit that one has a very small presence). What does that leave for classic, iconic, and unique gameworlds?
1) Yes I want Dark Sun for 4th ed, In fact I've been playing homebrewed Dark Sun 4th ed ;)
2) I HATE the way Athas was forced down a bloody stupid timeline etc for a novel series, ugh, that killed off much of the reaosn for playing it,
so retcon that crap out, and get back to the 1st boxed set. The "Blue Age", "Rajaat" and killing off half the sorceror kings and having a bloody Democracy !!!) needs erased, jeesh :p
It's like having the Forgotten Realms turned into 20th century Earth...
First boxed set was perfect, go back to it!
3) Yes, gladiator is a profession, the 4th ed Ranger or rogue or whatever class there is, is perfect, as it's only about fighting in an arena, not about HOW you fight. Athasians are perfeclty happy with psionics melting folks' heads in the arena, you know ;)
4) elements would be the "gods" for clerics, and sources of most pacts for warlocks, plus psurlons or other oddities for warlock pacts, I cna also imagine the sorceror kings having warlock "templars" (see below).
5) Now that we've got rid of simple class based idea in D&D, we should see templars as a profession, a calling or whatever.
Doesn't matter if they are a warlord who leads the SK's forces, a devoted fanatic who really does believe the sorceror king IS a god, or a non-combat wily sneaky bureacrat, or spymaster or whatever!
6) psionics could be handled many ways, IMHO, Wild Talent should be a multi-class feat, for psionics. Not everyone should have it, as that was noted by designers as a flaw (making it too common).
4th ed mechanics makes it much better, so you could swap your normal powers for psionic ones.
I'd also suggest having psionic crafting, IMHO, Athasians are NOT stupid, far from it, psionics in prior editions had powers that would allow crafting and improving items, so imagine having "psionically tempered obsidian", as being good or better than steel.
I also say in my games, tmeplars and others, use rituals or enchantments, to have armour suitable for wearing in the heat of the day.
Armour made from scales, chitin etc would be fine. you can imagine "drake", "braxat" and other materials replacing the materials in the PHB and Adventurer's Vault.
Oh, and I LUV Dark Sun... ;)
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/darksun/dark_sun_oasis.jpg
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/darksun/index.htm
This Setting i would love to see, with the Gith split between the Githyanki and the Githzeri... i would love to see how they spin that...
Epic Destinies like Dragon or Avingion would be nice to see...
how they handle the Feywilde and the Shadow Realm will be interesting as well
Man WoTC when did you know that i was hooked?? when?? magic, DnD, what else do you want? "mmm... soul donut...!"
While I think you are right that DS will be the 2010 setting I never have enjoyed psionics, and will not buy that seting either.
Dark Sun never sold that well, and isn't likely to be the focus on 4E's final campaign setting. If you've been paying attention to the buyouts of IP and all that, it's pretty clear that the plan, at the moment, is Dragonlance.
Dark Sun never sold that well, and isn't likely to be the focus on 4E's final campaign setting. If you've been paying attention to the buyouts of IP and all that, it's pretty clear that the plan, at the moment, is Dragonlance.
What the heck makes you say that 2010 will be 4E's final campaign setting? Especially when we have confirmation that PH3 possesses only Psionics, Divine and Primal options, and Mike Mearls confirming both Shadow and Elemental as still being actively developed with no signs of dropping either. Thus, there will be at least one more PHB after #3, for Shadow and Elemental (although more likely at least two more, with each of the aforementioned power sources getting its time in the spotlight).
Moreover, where were the hints for Dragonlance last month? There were zero such hints. None. There was, however, a very oddly-placed mention of a Dark Sun specific class (the Witckalok article, in which the mention of "defiler" was utterly out of place in the context of the rest of the article).
There was also a goliath with an obsidian longsword. Not a clear crystal, like the axe on the PH2, not a stone weapon like the older goliath miniature, not steel, but obsidian. Obsidian is very specifically one of the most common substances for edges weapons on Athas.
Then, there was an article with Divine paths of worship that specifically allow for and work within a model that allows for said power source to function without a single deity present. What campaign setting has never had deities, yet does seem to exhibit the possibility of channeling power in a manner similar to the divine?
Buying up the Dragonlance IPs are in no way proof of a 2010 campaign setting. On the contrary, they are proof that DL will not be the 2010 setting. Why? Because the 2010 setting will currently be in the works, whereas a setting that they are currently trying to acquire the IPs for is highly unlikely to be actively worked on by anyone being paid until they possess said IPs in full.
Dark Sun, on the other hand, is already completely owned by WotC. It fits with Psionics, the confirmed 2010 new power source, whereas Dragonlance definitely does not. The panel of, you know, actual developers of 4E, when asked at cons in Q&A sessions, overwhelmingly expressed interest in Dark Sun as the setting they'd like to see come back, and would like to work on. It was something like seven on the team in favor of DS, and three for other settings. They even went so far as to put an actual Dark Sun article in Dragon, which no other setting that hasn't been (or isn't announced to be) released has gotten yet. Kinda odd, and out of place if it wasn't going to be coming, no?
Athas also segues into Elemental absolutely brilliantly. This gives us a rather logical path of settings, from Eberron which has a splash of Psionic, to Dark Sun which focuses on it, to a setting that likely focuses on either Elemental or Shadow as a major component. Al-Qadim, whether AQ proper or a neo-AQ, would be a logical continuation from DS, still utilizing the desert mechanics, and quite properly focusing on the Elemental power source. Oriental Adventures would likewise logically focus on Elemental material. Else, of course, an altogether new setting.
Speaking of Shadow; with the addition of the Revised DS boxed set, Athas likewise fits with Shadow just fine. There is a massive region of the world to the south of the main portion that is intimately linked to the undead in a major way, meaning tons of campaign opportunities and fluff to tie in to Shadow-related material. This means Dark Sun is likewise perfectly suitable to progress from Psionics to Shadow rather than Psionics to Elemental.
I've seen no evidence that Dragonlance is the 2010 setting, at all. I've certainly seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever that 2010 will be the "final" campaign setting for 4E.
And once again, the goliath with the obsidian weapon would point more toward DS if the cover of PHB2 didn't already have a goliath wielding a crystal weapon.
And then there is the cover of the PHB3 which has a minotaur on the front. Minotaurs are a very important race to Dragonlance. Add to that the fact that one of the most recent DL series featured a monk as a main character, as well as several characters that used mind-reading and mind-control, I wouldn't count Psionics as a negative toward DL.
Plus, we know now that Elemental and Shadow won't be in PHB3. It is possible that PHB4 will be Psionic/Shadow/Elemental, which could mean Dark Sun in 2011.
And once again, the goliath with the obsidian weapon would point more toward DS if the cover of PHB2 didn't already have a goliath wielding a crystal weapon.
I hate to break it to you but obsidian isn't a crystal
I hate to break it to you but obsidian isn't a crystal
Relevance? All it shows is that Goliaths(note: not a Dark Sun race, it would be a stretch to make them Half-Giants) often use weapons not made of steel.
Defiling damage could simply be suggested as a narrative rather than actual mechanics applied (except for certain feats that make defiling deal hp damage or conditions to living creatures).
Muls and thri-kreen are a must-have. Other races could be introduced as "new races" in the setting. The map of Athas was never completed, leaving room for supplements and homebrew additions.
PCs don't all have to sport a "big" psionic power that makes any difference in combat. Something as simple as changing the color of one's eyes or hair could be what gets introduced for the 4e version. This would be balanced.
Can anyone say Dragonlance for 2010. They said there would be hints in the Ampersands and well at Gencon the 25th year anniversary being celebrated by WOTC of Dragonlance. Hmmmmm
Sometimes an anniversery is just an anniversary...
I certainly hope that is the case here. I mean, seriously. Dragonlance? WTF.
As it is, have there been any more hints at a setting, even if that setting were dragonlance? I've combed everything I can and found nothing beyond the obsidian weapon mentioned and the defiler in the april articles.
Sometimes an anniversery is just an anniversary...
I certainly hope that is the case here. I mean, seriously. Dragonlance? WTF.
Yeah, it is only one of their most successful franchises, I can't imagine why WotC would ever want to bring Dragonlance into 4e...
I am going to reiterate what I have said many times in the past, we have NO idea what the next setting will be. I would like to see Dragonlance, but Dark Sun is also a good choice. They both bring a lot of new things to the game.
While I don't doubt DL will eventually be updated to 4e (along with several new books within the first month of printing the player's guide which completely denounce what it says we can do in the setting), but I'm still holding out to see Darksun.
As it is, have there been any more hints at a setting, even if that setting were dragonlance? I've combed everything I can and found nothing beyond the obsidian weapon mentioned and the defiler in the april articles.
Those are extremely weak hints that you reference. And I have looked thru this Ampersand and see nothing at all to hint to Darksun. And we already know that they will announce the new setting at Gencon. I only see FR, Eberron and Dragonlance mentioned by name for Gencon and nothing hinting at Darksun anywhere.
Those are extremely weak hints that you reference. And I have looked thru this Ampersand and see nothing at all to hint to Darksun. And we already know that they will announce the new setting at Gencon. I only see FR, Eberron and Dragonlance mentioned by name for Gencon and nothing hinting at Darksun anywhere.
It's no weaker than assuming that it'll be DL just because of the anniversary. The defiler name drop, a Dark Sun developer name drop, psionics, gith, and Far Realms vs the anniversary and minotaur. My money's on Dark Sun.
It's no weaker than assuming that it'll be DL just because of the anniversary. The defiler name drop, a Dark Sun developer name drop, psionics, gith, and Far Realms vs the anniversary and minotaur. My money's on Dark Sun.
You might want to read the portion of today's Ampersand regarding the Character Builder update then. If that isn't a hint, I don't know what is.
It's no weaker than assuming that it'll be DL just because of the anniversary. The defiler name drop, a Dark Sun developer name drop, psionics, gith, and Far Realms vs the anniversary and minotaur. My money's on Dark Sun.
I was posing a question in my post by the way, but lets break down what you consider to be Darksun hints:
Defiler name used in an article for April fools not even written by a WOTC employee.
Developers tend to work on several different settings as did the one whose name was dropped.
Psionics were in Greyhawk well before they were in Darksun and Psionics now are nothing like they were in the previous 3 editions.
Gith were around in Greyhawk well before they were in Darksun as well.
The Far realms Article references the Celestian Order which was a Greyhawk order from WAAAAAAAY back.
Lets throw in an RPGA reward to players and GM's that update their information annually is a Greyhawk module set in Greyhawk.
I see more leading back to Greyhawk but I dont see it as next years release. But I also dont see Darksun either though.
I have no horses in this race so could care less. They are already releasing the setting I despise the most this year. After that I could really care less what comes out.
You might want to read the portion of today's Ampersand regarding the Character Builder update then. If that isn't a hint, I don't know what is.
So what if Raistlin is in it? Dark Sun's still more likely.
So what if Raistlin is in it? Dark Sun's still more likely.
Based on what? There has not been a single thing that has been a big fluorescent sign pointing to Dark Sun. Raistlin is the most iconic character of Dragonlance, and one of the most iconic characters of Dungeons and Dragons. I said it was a hint, and it is a big one.
No matter what setting it is I just hope they really strive to keep each setting different from one another and going off in different fantasy areas.
That is the part that gets tricky though, overlap is inevitable no matter what setting WotC chooses.
Based on what? There has not been a single thing that has been a big fluorescent sign pointing to Dark Sun. Raistlin is the most iconic character of Dragonlance, and one of the most iconic characters of Dungeons and Dragons. I said it was a hint, and it is a big one.
That is the part that gets tricky though, overlap is inevitable no matter what setting WotC chooses.
Which is why it won't be Dragonlance next. I like Dragonloance, it's what got me into DnD in the first place. But frankly it's too similar to the medieval high fantasy of FR to be brought out so soon. And based on what? Like I said - gith, Far realms, psionics, defilers (which the writer could have been asked to include). The gith and Far Realms all relate to aberrants, which was a big influence in Dark Sun, and there is no setting where psionics is more important than Dark Sun.
That is the part that gets tricky though, overlap is inevitable no matter what setting WotC chooses.
Yeah but I think in the beginning they can do fairly good. You can go from FR style medieval/high-fantasy to Eberron Magi-Tech then go to... Well:
- Post-Apocalyptic
- New Weird
- Steampunk/Pseudoscience
- Science Fantasy
- Horror
Those are just some off the top of my head.
Sorry fans of the setting! ;)
I liked some of the novels (Twins series, minotaur series, were good IMHO), but most were blech. I used to love DL way back when, then more I got into it, more...lacking it got.
Nothing that really slaps you in the face and says "OOMPH!", like Dark Sun does, or Spelljammer, or Ravenloft, or Undermountain does.
But then again, the original Forgotten Realms was a damn good setting/boxed set, to compare it against.
4th ed Realms is incoherent and a bit bland when it shouldn't be (and I love 4th ed and the Swordmage books are good fun, so it's not 4th edition I have a problem with).
The only problem with DL as the release in 2010 is that setting has never been a Psy setting. I cannot think of a single character in the pre-summer flame books that had mental abilities and was not a magi. After I'm not as well read, I didn't care for the second cataclysm idea.
I think that in any case, the main reason psionics is showing up next is because it is the very last of the traditional "core" power sources that hasn't been released yet. We have all the other ones so psionics is the next logical choice, regardless of what setting is coming out that year.
Of course we could also point to the PHB2 and see that it gave us shifters, which are an iconic race for the setting that came out directly afterwards. The PHB3 is giving us minotaurs, which are an iconic race for DL. In fact, none of the other races we know of belong as player races in DS anyway.*
*As far as i remember, there was a single module for DS that included invading githyanki but beyond that they were never an important aspect of the setting. There were no githzerai/githyanki walking around the city states and the closest thing we had to them was a monster simply called "gith" that was described as a haunched over reptilian-looking elf.
DL would need to be reworked somehow to be viable to play in again under the current rules. Maybe a 100 or more jump in the timeline like FR recieved would do the trick.
DS as much as I hate the setting at least is Psy, which still makes it somewhat more likely for the 2010 release.
Im not an expert on DL but ive heard people on the boards mention it including psionics somewhere. If DL already includes psionica at all then the inclusion of psionics in the PHB3 (along with the minotaur!) may not be huge harbinger of DS. That being said, DS would also need a much larger overhaul to fit with WotC's paradigm of a 4E campaign setting than DL.
DS would need some new way to handle elemental clerics that don't deal with gods (elemental power source?) and don't all shoot out radiant energy. DS will need some new explanation for how monks, paladins, warlocks, gnomes, tieflings, drow, devas, teleporting eladrin, half-orcs and load of other core concepts suddenly show up. DS will need some new revamp to explain how defiling operates with all these new arcane classes. There is a metric ton of stuff that will have to be altered in order to shoehorn all the core aspects of 4E into Dark Sun, which seems to be WotC's MO for dealing with campaign settings.
DL, on the other hand, will only need some slight alterations. Figure out how tieflings, warlocks, and maybe a few other things show up and the setting pretty much good to go as is. Dragonlance is pretty much "generic fantasy 101" and will accommodate all the core aspects of 4e much more easily that the more unique and eccentric Dark Sun.
I'd really like to see Mystara come back myself. New classes like the rake, merchant prince, dervish, etc. New races like the shadow elves. A campaign setting designed for everything from basic dungeon crawls, global exploration (think Princess Ark), world war (Master of the Desert Nomads), quests for immortality, and establishing dominions. I think Mystara would need to come after a DM Guide that included rules for dominions, mass combat and seeking immortality to work best. But given its general popularity, sadly, I think we'll see this next to never.
L
My personal opinion is that Dark Sun is a great candidate given how it differs significantly from FR or Eberron and its great fit with the psionics power source. I doubt we'll see Greyhawk yet, too similar to FR in a lot of ways. I don't think Ravenloft offers enough options for new races and classes, at least not to the extent of Dark Sun.
I'd really like to see Mystara come back myself. New classes like the rake, merchant prince, dervish, etc. New races like the shadow elves. A campaign setting designed for everything from basic dungeon crawls, global exploration (think Princess Ark), world war (Master of the Desert Nomads), quests for immortality, and establishing dominions. I think Mystara would need to come after a DM Guide that included rules for dominions, mass combat and seeking immortality to work best. But given its general popularity, sadly, I think we'll see this next to never.
L
This and I'm hoping for the beyond epic seminar at GenCon to cover these topics as well as establishing arcane academies or monasteries or bardic colleges.
Bel
lol
jk... Go Darksun!!!!
Plus, i fear WOTC would seriously screw up DL trying to shoehorn crap in that doesn't belong, of course it might work if the got Weis/Hickman to work on it (Or even Cam Banks - that man actually managed to make 3rd ed playable for me)
It has a completely different mechanic which would have to be retained in order to keep it Dark Sun. These particular mechanics have all been discussed and speculated on in this thread, so I'm not going to rehash them here.
It's just I can't imagine WotC abandoning everything they've done to build 4E just for a single setting. I mean, just look at the Character Builder with its multitude of races and classes - many of which would not fit/have no place whatsoever/are completely different in Dark Sun. Halflings, Elves, Dwarves etc., are completely different and would require an alternative, Dark Sun specific, version on the character builder, when all the time WotC have been developing a system meant to encourage variety - not limit our choices.
I think it will be a rehash of Mystara/Hollow World from Basic D&D. I don't believe that setting has ever seen an "Advanced" D&D conversion for any version of the game.
My second bet would be a new Oriental Adventures setting (kenku in MM2, assassin in PH3) Who knows?
I won't be buying the new setting, whatever it is. My homebrew campaign setting has everything I want in it anyway.
DMG
I think Dark Sun is the most original setting that has been developed for D&D, and I loved it because it wasn't generic fantasy, but I don't think it will be the 2010 setting.
It has a completely different mechanic which would have to be retained in order to keep it Dark Sun. These particular mechanics have all been discussed and speculated on in this thread, so I'm not going to rehash them here.
It's just I can't imagine WotC abandoning everything they've done to build 4E just for a single setting. I mean, just look at the Character Builder with its multitude of races and classes - many of which would not fit/have no place whatsoever/are completely different in Dark Sun. Halflings, Elves, Dwarves etc., are completely different and would require an alternative, Dark Sun specific, version on the character builder, when all the time WotC have been developing a system meant to encourage variety - not limit our choices.
I think it will be a rehash of Mystara/Hollow World from Basic D&D. I don't believe that setting has ever seen an "Advanced" D&D conversion for any version of the game.
My second bet would be a new Oriental Adventures setting (kenku in MM2, assassin in PH3) Who knows?
I won't be buying the new setting, whatever it is. My homebrew campaign setting has everything I want in it anyway.
DMG
mystara/ hollow world was te same setting as Karamekos (sp?) for 3rd edition
I still think the 2010 setting will be darksun and even tho you ar right in your expectations of darksun compared to the 2nd edition setting, i think they will do it and come up with some wierd crazy spellplague like explanation as to why the races are now allowed in athas.
I still think the 2010 setting will be darksun and even tho you ar right in your expectations of darksun compared to the 2nd edition setting, i think they will do it and come up with some wierd crazy spellplague like explanation as to why the races are now allowed in athas.
I don't think that would be necessary at all. I really doubt that if Dark Sun is released (And i really hope it is) that it will extend from the cannon of 2nd ed.
It will most likely be a complete re-imagining that will **** off a bunch of people. Which is really what I hope happens. Why try and cram round pegs into square holes when you can design the pegs and holes from the ground up?
If it is Dark Sun in 2010, then all the DragonLancers will complain.
If it is DragonLance in 2010, then all the Dark Sunners will complain.
Either way somebody's going to complain.
Me? I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude.
Both settings will need major overhauls. Dark Sun because there are no "gods" per se. and DragonLance because its overdeity The High God in the past would not allow any other deity in his realm. If both settings are including core material, then they must be able to include the core deities as well.
Both settings will need major overhauls.
With Dark Sun, the sorceror kings are the de facto deities of the world.
New dragon sorceror kings can be introduced as well as recently emerged avangions to represent the divine sources for the world.
The living vortices that granted spells were assumed to be extinct (no new templar generating dragons) but they could propagate, giving birth to new living vortices.
Primordials are also a source of divine power.
You could be a cleric/paladin/invoker/avenger of a dragon/avangion/primordial. No new classes needed for templars and clerics, just new channel divinity feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies.
A war between dragon sorceror-kings and avangion sage-lords would be cool for the setting update. Dark Sun is after all advertised as a "world at war".
It will most likely be a complete re-imagining that will **** off a bunch of people. Which is really what I hope happens. Why try and cram round pegs into square holes when you can design the pegs and holes from the ground up?
See, now when they spellplagued FR in order to make it fit 4E and ****** off a bunch of FR fans, half the reason that they altered the setting was because it had a perceived problem with NPC/detail bloat. They were trying to fix a problem that a lot of folks had with the setting along with making it fully 4E compatible at the same time. There was a real reason for the reboot other than compatibility.
Now, with DS there isn't a widely perceived issue with running the setting as is, other than with people who just don't like the flavor in general. If they go changing the setting just to make it 4E compatible then they will be altering the setting "just because", considering that there is no other underlying issue that needs addressed by a reboot. Changing a setting just so they can cram everything but the kitchen sink into it is a pretty crappy reason for a change IMO, especially when part of the setting's original flavor involved cutting away much of the fat of DnD's core fluff (no orcs, gnomes, trolls, ect...).
That being said, i would take a totally rebooted DS over Dragonlance in a heartbeat.
Both settings will need major overhauls. Dark Sun because there are no "gods" per se. and DragonLance because its overdeity The High God in the past would not allow any other deity in his realm. If both settings are including core material, then they must be able to include the core deities as well.
Uh . . . . no? Forgotten Realms only includes a few of the core deities, and Eberron has none of the core deities. So neither Dark Sun nor Dragonlance will have to include any of the core deities.
mystara/ hollow world was te same setting as Karamekos (sp?) for 3rd edition
Right. I wasn't aware of that for 3E. I guessed Mystara because, not only would it accomodate all the races/classes etc. without needing to limit choice or require campaign specific mechanics that isolate it from all other 4E material, but because of it's Blackmoor connection. Reviving it with a focus on the Blackmoor period would make it different from the Basic Set setting but familiar to long-time D&D players as well as being great tribute to Dave Arneson.
I still think the 2010 setting will be darksun and even tho you ar right in your expectations of darksun compared to the 2nd edition setting, i think they will do it and come up with some wierd crazy spellplague like explanation as to why the races are now allowed in athas.
I agree. They would have to come up with a really whacky explanation. After all, they isolated Athas from all the rest of the D&D multiverse by sealing its crystal sphere and (as far as I can remember) the cosmology was completely different with no portals to the astral planes, hence no connection to anything but the elements. They did this simply because DS used a different rules system, higher level characters, higher stats, etc., and it was unbalancing to have a comparatively weak party of characters to spelljam/portal from, say, Krynn or Oerth or somewhere because of the major differences in rules mechanics.
I'm not saying WotC can't do it. I'm saying it's gonna be a tough job.
As I already mention, DS was by far my all-time favourite setting, and I think it is the only setting worth bringing back with a 4E bent on it. I just hope that if it is the 2010 setting then WotC don't lose the unique flavour of the setting during the conversion.
I'm guessing we'll get our first elemental class from the setting (since Assassins are being introduced earlier as a probable Shadow class). Maybe they'll reimagine the Templar as an Elemental Defender or they'll give us an Elementalist class.
One thing I wonder is, if Dark Sun is adapted to 4E, what class will be included with the system (like artificers for Eberron or swordmages for FR).
I'm guessing we'll get our first elemental class from the setting (since Assassins are being introduced earlier as a probable Shadow class). Maybe they'll reimagine the Templar as an Elemental Defender or they'll give us an Elementalist class.
I see the templar more as a paragon path than a class in its own right, much the same as the trader etc... elemental clerics could be a chance, or do they even need a class for the book? What about if they just had extra new races (Mul, Thri-Kreen etc - i see Half-Giants being replaced with Goliaths, and Dray with Dragonborn), but Dark Sun does have potential for alot of new races and powers for existing classes also!
I agree. They would have to come up with a really whacky explanation. After all, they isolated Athas from all the rest of the D&D multiverse by sealing its crystal sphere and (as far as I can remember) the cosmology was completely different with no portals to the astral planes, hence no connection to anything but the elements. They did this simply because DS used a different rules system, higher level characters, higher stats, etc., and it was unbalancing to have a comparatively weak party of characters to spelljam/portal from, say, Krynn or Oerth or somewhere because of the major differences in rules mechanics.
I'm not saying WotC can't do it. I'm saying it's gonna be a tough job.
As I already mention, DS was by far my all-time favourite setting, and I think it is the only setting worth bringing back with a 4E bent on it. I just hope that if it is the 2010 setting then WotC don't lose the unique flavour of the setting during the conversion.
They have an explanation, it is called the pristine tower - with the tower in play, literally anything can be in play.
For Dark Sun to fit in with the 4E mechanics, it would have to have a bit of a rework just like FR did. It would be cool for them to bring it back though.
Shouldnt they rework any campaign setting that they bring back?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4822627-post50.html
Vyvyan Basterd has interpreted the Dollar Sign as hinting towards Dark Sun, which I think is very clever.
It could just mean 'the setting that is going to make us the most money', but I don't think The Rouse would be so blatantly corporate.
I'd be interested in what makes it unique. It might even be as good as Eberron ... but I can't hold my breath on that because Eberron is so amazingly un-Tolkien, it has to be awesome.
Important questions:
Do Dwarves hate Elves in Dark Sun? (And vice versa?)
Are Elves wise and immortal beings of better-than-humanness in Dark Sun?
If I meet an Orc in Dark Sun, can I assume that he is a bad guy?
Are mages ruling the world of Dark Sun?
If the answer to all these questions are "no," Dark Sun might actually be a cool setting. Let me know! Thanks!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Do Dwarves hate Elves in Dark Sun? (And vice versa?)
Are Elves wise and immortal beings of better-than-humanness in Dark Sun?
If I meet an Orc in Dark Sun, can I assume that he is a bad guy?
Are mages ruling the world of Dark Sun?
If the answer to all these questions are "no," Dark Sun might actually be a cool setting. Let me know! Thanks!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Everybody hates elves.
Elves are desert gypsies.
Orcs are extinct.
The rulers are immensely powerful Defiler/Psions that are working their way towards becoming immortal dragons, so mages rule all the city-states. Outside of that, everything is pretty tribal.
Also, halflings eat intruders onto their lands, which is almost as good as dinosaur cavalry wielding boomerangs.
See, templars, as described is really a "Profession", same as a "gladiator".
Doens't matter how they do it, as there are many areas within the profession.
Some are captains and generals (warlords, took to 4th ed to get a good officer class!!)
Some are highly skilled spellcasters, who've got access to libraries of spells beyond anything anyone else has (so they could be any type of caster, even arcane, see below)
And some templars really DO believe their sorceror kings are gods, or at least, god-like beings.
Some are just bureacrats, but who'd have high skills, and some defencive ability...bodyguards do killing for them, and see the Demagogue template in the DNG, that fits well for some.
Some templars have ot have good knowledge of vital civic systems, like water supplies.
Thus, they run a gamut!!
Defilers, well, IMHO, that's easy. Add a feat: Defiling, automaticlaly get +1hit/damage with all spells per tier. Defilers are more powerful than any normal wizard, that's why they won! ;)
But, they destroy life...and cannot cast in barren areas or without a "reserve" of magic stored (need mechanics for that)
I cam eup with using "mutation" as a way to fit almost anything in ok. WIhin reason.
It's a world of darwinism gone mad, plus psionic, stellar and magical "Pollution"
So, one guy may look human, but isn't, he has stats etc of a goliath or tiefling etc.
I went with a Human; since an elf, mul, half giant, halfling, or thri-kreen would not be the most likely templars... with Dwarves( remember they were beardless ) and the rare half-elf being them... but most commonly humans were the top of the food chain...
since all characters started at level 3, I bumped him up.
Human Templar Example
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Templar of Tyr, level 3
Human, Invoker
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Wrath
Alignment: Good
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.
AC: 17 Fort: 15 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 32 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Intimidate +8, History +11, Arcana +9, Diplomacy +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +2, Heal +3, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth, Streetwise +3, Thievery, Athletics -1
FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Human: Initiate of the Faith
Level 1: Linguist
Level 2: Melee Training (Intelligence)
POWERS
Invoker at-will 1: Sun Strike
Invoker at-will 1: Avenging Light
Bonus At-Will Power: Grasping Shards
Invoker daily 1: Binding Invocation of Chains
Invoker encounter 1: Spear of the Inquisitor
Invoker encounter 3: Offering of Justice
Invoker utility 2: Shroud of Awe
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Adventurer's Kit, Implement, Rod, Hide Armor, Holy Symbol
RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Purify Water
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Templar of Tyr, level 3
Human, Invoker
Divine Covenant: Covenant of Wrath
Alignment: Good
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 14.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14.
AC: 17 Fort: 15 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 32 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 8
TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Intimidate +8, History +11, Arcana +9, Diplomacy +8
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff +3, Dungeoneering +3, Endurance +2, Heal +3, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Stealth, Streetwise +3, Thievery, Athletics -1
FEATS
Invoker: Ritual Caster
Human: Initiate of the Faith
Level 1: Linguist
Level 2: Melee Training (Intelligence)
POWERS
Invoker at-will 1: Sun Strike
Invoker at-will 1: Avenging Light
Bonus At-Will Power: Grasping Shards
Invoker daily 1: Binding Invocation of Chains
Invoker encounter 1: Spear of the Inquisitor
Invoker encounter 3: Offering of Justice
Invoker utility 2: Shroud of Awe
ITEMS
Ritual Book, Adventurer's Kit, Implement, Rod, Hide Armor, Holy Symbol
RITUALS
Hand of Fate, Purify Water
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
I still looked at a few books for ideas
but here's the list of DS materials
All of Athas
P.S. If and when the 4e Dark Sun Launches!!! I will be one of the first in line to play it!!! "Dude, I'll fight you for it!!"
Everybody hates elves.
Elves are desert gypsies.
Orcs are extinct.
The rulers are immensely powerful Defiler/Psions that are working their way towards becoming immortal dragons, so mages rule all the city-states. Outside of that, everything is pretty tribal.
Also, halflings eat intruders onto their lands, which is almost as good as dinosaur cavalry wielding boomerangs.
Dang! No kidding!
Cannibal (ish) halflings just sold me on the setting (mage rulers or not). The elf gypsy makes me think of Ravenloft, but I'm gonna assume that there is a difference of some sort.
Well, all that being said, I really hope that (if it is either Dragonlance or Dark Sun) it turns out to be Dark Sun for 2010.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I just love the Mul's (Half Dwarves)!! Bald, Sterile, and Bad Ass!!
Dark Sun looks a lot more interesting than Forgotten Realms, which always just seemed like the obvious D&D setting that I could make up without actually trying to be original
I bet you can
anyway, what's with the fascination with cannibalistic halflings, muls, dragon-kings, they very unique and difficult to come up with, you got to be joking
I bet you can
anyway, what's with the fascination with cannibalistic halflings, muls, dragon-kings, they very unique and difficult to come up with, you got to be joking
It's more than that. The setting is harsh and the theme was very, very dark. Keep in mind that it was something new for D&D which had stagnated with endless generic fantasy. Dragon Lance, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk. It was all so 'samy'. Dark Sun was like a smack to the face for a lot of players in 2nd edition. For the first time they woke up and said, "Hey, Fantasy covers a lot more ground than Europe!"
It was amazing. We got stuff like Planescape and Eberron because of it. Spelljammer...Spelljammer is an enigma to this day.
It's more than that. The setting is harsh and the theme was very, very dark. Keep in mind that it was something new for D&D which had stagnated with endless generic fantasy. Dragon Lance, Forgotten Realms, and Greyhawk. It was all so 'samy'. Dark Sun was like a smack to the face for a lot of players in 2nd edition. For the first time they woke up and said, "Hey, Fantasy covers a lot more ground than Europe!"
It was amazing. We got stuff like Planescape and Eberron because of it. Spelljammer...Spelljammer is an enigma to this day.
Spelljammer was the greatest thing ever. It was before it's time. WotC may be against making it a full setting, but I hope they still dedicate a book to the concept.
Spelljammer was the greatest thing ever. It was before it's time. WotC may be against making it a full setting, but I hope they still dedicate a book to the concept.
Perhaps the Plane's Above?
Scott 'The Rouse' posted a cryptic hint on ENworld that the 2010 setting would have an 'a' in the name (not really useful), and a second hint: $
Good to see WotC is finally admitting they view 4th ed as little more then a cash making scheme.
Bel
Well, if the $ is a clue, I'd expect it to mean a setting that made alot of money for them and that wasn't Dark Sun, both Dragonlance and Greyhawk made mucho dinero in their time. Now they might do Greyhawk down the road, but they will definitely do Dark Sun before that.
Bel
As was pointed out, is could also stand for Dollar Sign. Which could be a cool, subtle hint for Dark Sun.
As was pointed out, is could also stand for Dollar Sign. Which could be a cool, subtle hint for Dark Sun.
Without knowing the crypto-genesis of the $ clue, getting the letters D and S from it are pure speculation. You could also get the number 4 from it, and a capital S and lower case l.
Without knowing the crypto-genesis of the $ clue, getting the letters D and S from it are pure speculation. You could also get the number 4 from it, and a capital S and lower case l.
Well, yes. It was an incredibly vague hint. Duh.
You could also get "No S" out of it, meaning no campaign with an "S" in the name. I was merely subtly pointing out that as a hint goes, it is a total non-hint, as it has far too many, disparate potential meanings.Note, the first hint: "a", is likewise worthless. Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Oriental Adventures, Mystara, ALL have the letter, "a" in them. All that hint did was completely crush the hopes of any Birthright fans. ;)
$ = Dollar Sign = DS
mumbo jumbo. God it seems like a lot of people think that's the end-all be-all of the $ clue.
Good to see WotC is finally admitting they view 4th ed as little more then a cash making scheme.
I hope that is meant in a comedic way?
Or do you really think Scott doesn't care for D&D AND is out to insult the players?
Folk need to chill, jeesh.
I'll go with the $ = Dark Sun (Dollar Sign makes sense)..or Spelljammer (shape you can create if you wanna get into a playful mood...S P... etc, hehe.)
Spelljammer was the greatest thing ever. It was before it's time. WotC may be against making it a full setting, but I hope they still dedicate a book to the concept.
Oh hell yeah, Spelljammer was awesome, most folk just simply couldn't "grok" it though, and it needed much simpler simpler ship combat rules
Now after Pirates of the Caribbean, people's horizons are lifted a bit...
Ships ins pace..orcs in space....FLEETS of mind flayers and beholders...mmmm!! :D
Oh yes, I love Spelljammer all right...
They could put all of 4E into Dark Sun easy, if they change the timeline. It'd probably take more than the 100 year jump the Realms got.
oh gods, NOOOOOO! Not another "4th ed Forgotten Realms" mess up, for pity's sake, lol! :p
First Dark SUn boxed set works perfectly, it's what they did AFTER that that totally bolloxed it all up...so, retcon it back to the first boxed set, tweaked as need.
NO dragonborn, NO drow, half orcs, goliaths etc.
Whole point is that Dark Sun is not Yet Another Typical Medieval Europoean Mythology TOlkein-esque setting.
I don't mind "mutations" and weird races fit for the setting, that's cool.
Keep it mysterious, just hints of possible histories. That solves everything, let DM's handle history as they chose.
Fair enough. I was just getting sick of all the
$ = Dollar Sign = DS
mumbo jumbo. God it seems like a lot of people think that's the end-all be-all of the $ clue.
Chronologically, I think I am the first person on the boards to field the "Not S" response (probably not the first person to think it). I will freely admit that I like it since it rules Dark Sun out for 2010, and works with my theories on Dragonlance in 2010. One can twist any of the non-hints to fit just about any setting (besides poor Birthright).
I just want to be absolutely clear, I DO want Dark Sun to come out for 4e. But I would rather see Dragonlance first, and see Dark Sun the following year. That way Dark Sun can be out with all of the Psionic splatbooks and we can have Elemental source character classes to fit the Elemental Cleric theme. Plus that is a meaningful year for Dark Sun since it will be the 20th Anniversary of the setting.
Plus that is a meaningful year for Dark Sun since it will be the 20th Anniversary of the setting.
That has made the most sense out of any DS time frame speculation thus far.
Here ya go.
Only psionics in Dragonlance I can recall were the yaggol, but they were debased and weak mindflayers, but I havne't read DL stuff in a long time (after the Twins and minotaur books...blech...)
Psion class will be previewed on DDi in July.
That has made the most sense out of any DS time frame speculation thus far.
Here ya go.
Yay, I did good! This year works for Dragonlance because they would be making the announcement at the 25th Anniversary party for Dragonlance. Not as much of a fit.
shape you can create if you wanna get into a playful mood...S P... etc, hehe.
SP, eh?
I think we can all agree with maximum certainty: the 2010 campaign setting is going to be Sigil Prep.
oh gods, NOOOOOO! Not another "4th ed Forgotten Realms" mess up, for pity's sake, lol! :p
First Dark SUn boxed set works perfectly, it's what they did AFTER that that totally bolloxed it all up...so, retcon it back to the first boxed set, tweaked as need.
NO dragonborn, NO drow, half orcs, goliaths etc.
Whole point is that Dark Sun is not Yet Another Typical Medieval Europoean Mythology TOlkein-esque setting.
I don't mind "mutations" and weird races fit for the setting, that's cool.
Keep it mysterious, just hints of possible histories. That solves everything, let DM's handle history as they chose.
I disagree dragonborn, drow, half orcx, goliath, shifter, teifling...they can all be there in a modfied DS way. I agree not europoean tolkeinesk (witch ironicly would rule out dragonborn, drow, and goliaths)...just reimagin daksun..
what makes DS what it is
Dessert blasted wasteland...one step away from post apocliptic mad max teratory here.
Evil Dragon Kings controling most of the cities (Points of darkness)
savage and barbaric monsters
strange clues to earlier ages
High psionic low magic
all of that can be done with every PC race and class intact...
Spelljammer was the greatest thing ever. It was before it's time. WotC may be against making it a full setting, but I hope they still dedicate a book to the concept.
You know after this statement it is going to be very difficult to take anything else you say seriously. Greatest thing ever ?
NO dragonborn, NO drow, half orcs, goliaths etc.
As I keep saying, over and over and over (I swear, I must be the only one that remembers they existed), Dragonborn were already in Dark Sun, before the Revised box set even. They were called Dray, and they've been part of Dark Sun since '94.
You know after this statement it is going to be very difficult to take anything else you say seriously. Greatest thing ever ?
I can't help it if you have poor taste. :P
I hope that is meant in a comedic way?
It was ;) I even included a winking smily (although I'll admit I did hide it somewhat).
oh gods, NOOOOOO! Not another "4th ed Forgotten Realms" mess up, for pity's sake, lol! :p
First Dark SUn boxed set works perfectly, it's what they did AFTER that that totally bolloxed it all up...so, retcon it back to the first boxed set, tweaked as need.
NO dragonborn, NO drow, half orcs, goliaths etc.
I think its safe to say you and many fans like you are in for a gigantic dissapointment if you think the new races won't be in it. There's a chance they'll get regress the timeline back to the original boxed set (although we certainly have no indications that would be the case so far), but it will have goliath. It should have half-orcs. If denying your players half of the races from the PHBs is what you like about the setting, then you're going to get dissapointed.
It would of course be easy to include all the PHB and even PG races and still keep most of the history intact and having the zalanthan feel:
* Half-Orcs are remnants of the orcs that were wiped out.
* Dragonborn are dray.
* Drow are simply elves who fled the race purge. They don't need to be a society of matriarchal festishists. See Eberron for a clear example of a take on drow that doesn't resort to that.
* Goliaths were created from breeding between giants and humans many generations ago. Yes that means no more half-giants. But to be honest I doubt we'll ever get a large player race.
* Tieflings are ex-slaves who managed to escape their bondage by making deals with other-worldly forces (playing up on the whole nitty-gritty aspect of the game).
* Shifters I see little reason to change. Just emphasise their feral nature.
* Devas are could easily be mercenary angels (4th ed core angels are quite mercenary) who helped the Sorcerer-Kings rebel against Rajaat. With his dying breath, he cursed the Angels and twisted them into devas, trapping them on Athas.
* Genasi are from the Elemental Chaos and could either be refugees or an invading army.
Warforged, Gnomes and Eladrin are a bit more of a problem because it depends entirely on whether or not the timeline is reset, and I don't feel like getting in an argument over whether or not that should happen.
The point is, additional races don't need to feel out of place in Athas. Not wanting them in Dark Sun is largely for the same reason many Forgotten Realms fans are angry about Mystra dying. Anyone who has "one vision" on what a campaign setting is will be disappointed by any versions of that campaign setting for 4th ed. ESPECIALLY if that vision includes disallowing certain races. Because while even Eberron remained mostly unchanged, even it has a place for every 4th ed race.
Chronologically, I think I am the first person on the boards to field the "Not S" response (probably not the first person to think it). I will freely admit that I like it since it rules Dark Sun out for 2010, and works with my theories on Dragonlance in 2010. One can twist any of the non-hints to fit just about any setting (besides poor Birthright).
I just want to be absolutely clear, I DO want Dark Sun to come out for 4e. But I would rather see Dragonlance first, and see Dark Sun the following year. That way Dark Sun can be out with all of the Psionic splatbooks and we can have Elemental source character classes to fit the Elemental Cleric theme. Plus that is a meaningful year for Dark Sun since it will be the 20th Anniversary of the setting.
Thats fine but if it is DL ill be pulling out my hair the setting is garbage. There is no point to playing in it because whatever the players do is moot due to gods showing up and those ridiculous dragon overlords. Sorry no id rather see anything before DL. Im hoping for darksun followed by new settings every year
The overlords are and have been dead for at least 4 years.
Darksun has been dead for at least 10. It was never that much fun to begin with.
The overlords ruined the entire setting and sorry no I hate DL the gods intefere more than they do in forgotten realms. My first vote would be to gladly let every old setting quietly die and come out with all new ones. I never saw anything good about Dragon Lance it was crap. The world was too small with only a tiny continent fleshed out and every race acting in an entirley sterotypical fashion
1) At least DL didn't have elmunchkin, and dritz. What a load of crap they are. When characters neared the end of their usefullness they were killed off. Where as these craptastical characters still have places in their world, why?
2) If they make a completly new setting Ill look at it, DS does not have that chance.
3) There are at least 3 continants. Two of which made it to print under TSR, both as books and sourcebooks. The third as far as I know was completly fan written.
4) The races were being infultrated by agents of evil expressly to forment chaos before the start of the war. The natural way to express that would be to have races that basicly feared anyone else. Did you have a point to this?
5) gods tend to do stupid things any time a writer gets their hands on them. FR is no different in this score.
DL killed of characters right when they got interesting. Dritz is a bad character but Forgotten realms is at least large enough to be interesting DL cannot say the same. Its much too small to be a true world. Your right about gods doing stupid things but I like gods and dragons to be rarley encountered mysterious beings for the most part. Setting im developing has 9 active dragons only 3 are actually known to be dragons and one of them is thought of as crazy because its a white dragon on a tropical island that sells ice to ships making the crossing so that they have fresh water....... Frankly the existince of kender and gully dwarves alone is enough to ruin DL oh and time travel few books that have time travel apeal to me. So no I will never use anything from DL nor allow it to be used in a campaign Im running if someone else at table uses it I will tease them about it. The setting is just that bad.
You know after this statement it is going to be very difficult to take anything else you say seriously. Greatest thing ever ?
Um, yes Spelljammer Rules! Folk who cannot accept it had humour in it, forget that AD&D was full of humour! Flumphs, anyone, or the original DMG? :p
I love bombastic giff, mad gnomes and mutant giant phased bombadier learnean hamsters!! Muhaha!!
Watch it, or I'll post more Spelljammer art! :P
It was ;) I even included a winking smily (although I'll admit I did hide it somewhat).
.
Ah, sorry bud
meh, I am using the idea of mutation to allow different races, for stats etc, but they may look Human ro whatever, or just damn weird. Sorts the problem, IMHO ;)
But having eladrin on Athas...no, sorry, and certainly no Feywild!!!
The beauty of Dark Sun is that it's so different
Oh, and dray aren't dragonborn, they are a bit different.
Warforged, Gnomes and Eladrin are a bit more of a problem because it depends entirely on whether or not the timeline is reset, and I don't feel like getting in an argument over whether or not that should happen.
Warforged are easy - they're just Blue/Green Age relics from a recently uncovered lost city.
Thats fine but if it is DL ill be pulling out my hair the setting is garbage. There is no point to playing in it because whatever the players do is moot due to gods showing up and those ridiculous dragon overlords. Sorry no id rather see anything before DL. Im hoping for darksun followed by new settings every year
So much hate is unhealthy. Ulcers, man, ulcers.
Um, yes Spelljammer Rules! Folk who cannot accept it had humour in it, forget that AD&D was full of humour! Flumphs, anyone, or the original DMG? :p
I love bombastic giff, mad gnomes and mutant giant phased bombadier learnean hamsters!! Muhaha!!
Watch it, or I'll post more Spelljammer art! :P
DO IT!
Oh, and dray aren't dragonborn, they are a bit different.
They may not be exact fits, but they are more than close enough that it is what will happen if/when Dark Sun gets updated to 4e.
lol, a warforged wouldn't last 10 seocnds on any Athasian street!!
METAL MAN!! woot!! ;)
As for Spelljammer art...
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/sj/htm/spelljammer.htm
Muhahha, knock yerself out! ;)
And just for those who don't wanna click the link to my gallery of SJ art
CelticMutt,
lol, a warforged wouldn't last 10 seocnds on any Athasian street!!
METAL MAN!! woot!! ;)
Who says warforged need to be made of metal? :D I occasionally play a warforged warden in LFR made from wood and stone, and is an ancient construct created by druids over 1,000 years ago. Why couldn't a Dark Sun warforged from the Green Age be made from something appropriate to focusing the massive psionic energy from the age, such as psionically hardened obsidian, stone, and the semi-organics? Or a Blue Age warforged that was grown, and is completely made of rhulisti-grown, lifeshaped parts? Or all of the above, being quite different flavor-wise, yet mechanically identical?
Oh, and dray aren't dragonborn, they are a bit different.
Fluff-wise races can be changed quite a bit between settings (if WotC publishes Dark Sun they'll have to have cannibalistic halflings or not a single DS fan will get the setting). Changing Dragonborn fluff to fit in more closely with dray could easily be done.
Also note how I also said goliath will be half-giants. They're hardly the same, but they are close enough (with some fluff changes) to not make a difference. There is going to be some changes if DS is republished.
CelticMutt,
lol, a warforged wouldn't last 10 seocnds on any Athasian street!!
METAL MAN!! woot!! ;)
Assuming magical weapons are going to get changed to obsidian fluff-wise, there's no reason Warforged can't be changed into stone golems. I've done it with one of my characters and there's no real mechanical reason to not do it.
fluff changes would be the hardest to do in the character builder i think
the spellscarred thing in the details section would be a nice place for a psionics option...
Gladiator would be something i would love to see done
http://athas.org/
Ugh. I'm just getting tired of the debate. Can't WoTC just tell us now or are are sitting on our thumbs until August?
If you don't like the debate, then just avoid the threads about future settings. *shrugs* It isn't really too hard to do. There will probably be like 10 new threads declaring what the new setting is, so I'm sure you won't miss the exciting announcement.
If you don't like the debate, then just avoid the threads about future settings. *shrugs* It isn't really too hard to do. There will probably be like 10 new threads declaring what the new setting is, so I'm sure you won't miss the exciting announcement.
Heh. Knowing our luck it will be on ENWorld because someone catches an Amazon leak or something.
Peace,
Fallstorm
Bump due to my strong desire to have Dark Sun be the 2010 setting.
Dark Sun 2010 really seems to be dead in the water right now. I really do think that it would be a good setting for 2011, though. So help me God, if they release a new setting that year, I will be ****** since they will be wasting a golden opportunity with Dark Sun (Anniversary, Psionic Power book, hopefully Elemental Power source in PHB3 along with more Psionic classes).
How is it dead in the water? The fact that Half-Giants and Thri-Kreen were mentioned together in the EBPG is a good sign.
Not really, all that exemplifies is that Eberron literally has EVERYTHING in it. It isn't like they were in the supporting cast section, they were mentioned in single sentences in a region right up. From a PR standpoint, there has been absolutely nothing pointing to Dark Sun at this point in time other than a non-DS race mini holding an obsidian weapon and the drop of a name of a Dark Sun class in an April Fool's article. Bill states he would be dropping clues of the next setting in Ampersand over the next few columns (of AMPERSAND), which he has done for Dragonlance, not for Dark Sun.
Like I said, I would like to see Dark Sun, but it makes a whole heckuva lot more sense to have it be the 2011 setting.
The next campaign setting was also said to be something unexpected. How can Dragonlance of all things be considered unexpected? I think everybody and their mother expect Dragonlance at some point. Dark Sun though? Now that is a surprise.
Not exactly, people have been harping about Dark Sun since the new edition came out. The unexpected thing with Dragonlance would be if it was a reboot (which is exactly what I would want). He also said it would be a mix of old and new, which would fit the reboot of Dragonlance.
Not really, all that exemplifies is that Eberron literally has EVERYTHING in it. It isn't like they were in the supporting cast section, they were mentioned in single sentences in a region right up. From a PR standpoint, there has been absolutely nothing pointing to Dark Sun at this point in time other than a non-DS race mini holding an obsidian weapon and the drop of a name of a Dark Sun class in an April Fool's article. Bill states he would be dropping clues of the next setting in Ampersand over the next few columns (of AMPERSAND), which he has done for Dragonlance, not for Dark Sun.
Like I said, I would like to see Dark Sun, but it makes a whole heckuva lot more sense to have it be the 2011 setting.
Well, I am hoping they go with Dark Sun also. Another reason I would prefer Dark Sun is because Dragonlance really doesn't standout from the typical fantasy campaign world all that much or atleast not the way a Dark Sun, Eberron, Planescape, or even Ravenloft does. If WOTC was planning to release a standard campaign world I would prefer them to update Greyhawk, which I find more interesting than both Dragonlance or the Forgotten Realms (not that I don't enjoy the Realms also).
Peace,
Fallstorm
I don't know. DL is so terrible, it would be a little unexpected for a company to actually try and bring that one back to life. :P
See, I would have a lot more respect for your opinion for your opinion if it was blatent hatred with absolutely no basis. You are in the same realm as the 4e=WoW crowd at the moment.
Not exactly, people have been harping about Dark Sun since the new edition came out. The unexpected thing with Dragonlance would be if it was a reboot (which is exactly what I would want). He also said it would be a mix of old and new, which would fit the reboot of Dragonlance.
Everybody HERE has been harping about Dark Sun. The general DnD fanbase on the other hand barely even know it exists and thus why it would be unexpected. Remember, you have to think not about the hardcore fanbase that visits the forum but rather the broad general fanbase.
Everybody HERE has been harping about Dark Sun. The general DnD fanbase on the other hand barely even know it exists and thus why it would be unexpected. Remember, you have to think not about the hardcore fanbase that visits the forum but rather the broad general fanbase.
Very true, but I wouldn't count that as positive for Dark Sun. If the wider audience has either not heard of it or doesn't care for it, how exactly is that a smart move on WotC's part to release it?
I think you have me confused with people that don't want to see Dark Sun ever released. I do want to see Dark Sun, I just think it would be better served as the 2011 setting. If WotC doesn't release it that year, I would be incredibly surprised, and not in a good way.
Contrary to popular opinion, celebrating an anniversary does not mean that's the setting that will be announced. All it means is they're celebrating an anniversary. And when two of the people most heavily involved in working on Dragonlance for the past several years both say that they don't think it will be Dragonlance in 2010, that oughta tell you something.
Where exactly did they say that? Besides, developers likely don't have much of a say in WHAT gets produces, just HOW it gets produced.
Very true, but I wouldn't count that as positive for Dark Sun. If the wider audience has either not heard of it or doesn't care for it, how exactly is that a smart move on WotC's part to release it?
It may not be a well known setting (thus why it would be a surprise to the general fanbase, unlike Dragonlance which EVERYBODY expects to eventually be released), however the sort of setting it is is actually a fairly popular setting. Post-apocalyptic is a popular kind of setting, so if they do a good job at 4th EDing the game they could gain a lot of new fans of it. Dragonlance though, not a whole lot of potential for a new fanbase for it, most people will view it as just yet another generic high fantasy setting (which it is, even though it has a rich history, it's still a generic high fantasy setting).
I think you have me confused with people that don't want to see Dark Sun ever released. I do want to see Dark Sun, I just think it would be better served as the 2011 setting. If WotC doesn't release it that year, I would be incredibly surprised, and not in a good way.
No, I understand where you stand on Dark Sun. I just disagree with the way you've thought this out.
Where exactly did they say that? Besides, developers likely don't have much of a say in WHAT gets produces, just HOW it gets produced.
Cam Banks and Trampas Whiteman have said here and at ENWorld (Whiteman just at ENWorld) in the various 2010 threads that they don't believe it's likely to happen for 2010.
Cam Banks and Trampas Whiteman have said here and at ENWorld (Whiteman just at ENWorld) in the various 2010 threads that they don't believe it's likely to happen for 2010.
Ultimately, they don't exactly have too much say in that. I misread your post earlier, I thought you were referencing WotC developers.
I have argued at length with Trampas regarding this subject, and I don't agree with his justification for his viewpoint (no planned DL novels in 2010 is his biggest argument point that I have seen at many points, though I can't speak for him). The thing is, his argument falls apart when you consider the fact Dark Sun has no 2010 novels planned (and hasn't had a new novel produced in over a decade). Additionally, he does raise the point that a DLPG/CS would conflict with the MWP 3.5 DL material, but I really don't see it that way.
See, I would have a lot more respect for your opinion if it was not blatent hatred with absolutely no basis. You are in the same realm as the 4e=WoW crowd at the moment.
I fixed your sentence for you. Ton of typos in it. Now lets get on to the meat of your bologna: I am not in the same crowd as 4e = WoW. When someone says that 4e = WoW, what they have done is made an untenable argument. There is no way to defend that statement, because analysis reveals that there is no more similarity between 4e and WoW then between any two other fantasy products. I have not stated that Dragonlance is a MMORPG. I have not stated that its the worst setting ever released. I have not made any claims about its essential nature or quality. What I have done is stated my opinion about the setting. I hate it. It does not match my taste. I will not spend a penny on it. Nothing about it interests me in the least. There is absolutely a basis for my hatred. I don't like the setting. I don't like typical medieval European fantasy settings. They bore me. That is my basis. As for whether you respect my opinion or not, I could care less. It doesn't change a thing. I still hate the setting. That is the beginning and the end of the story.
That being said, if they are going to release DS I hope they started working on it a long time ago, as it looks to need a lot of work to conform to 4E's basic tenants.
Bel
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968265&page=2
i guess people are thinking that DarkSun would be 2010... it would be funnier if it was 2012... with the end of the world and all
post apocalyptic is my cup of tea... Dark Sun being my favorite over Rifts any day!!
With the reprinting of the Darksun Novels
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968265&page=2
i guess people are thinking that DarkSun would be 2010... it would be funnier if it was 2012... with the end of the world and all
post apocalyptic is my cup of tea... Dark Sun being my favorite over Rifts any day!!
This isn't anything new. The last of the Prism Pentad is out, I believe. Also, there aren't any NEW novels planned at this point. It could have been a test run to check interest in the setting. Difficult to call.
If you want something, make it ;)
Not exactly, people have been harping about Dark Sun since the new edition came out. The unexpected thing with Dragonlance would be if it was a reboot (which is exactly what I would want). He also said it would be a mix of old and new, which would fit the reboot of Dragonlance.
We don't count, though. Sorry, in that regard we just don't, nor does any of the forum-goers from all of the major fan forums combined. We make up but a tiny sliver of their market. That sort of teaser is intended for the majority. To the majority, Dragonlance or Greyhawk would be the expected, most anything else would not, including Dark Sun.
To the majority, Dragonlance or Greyhawk would be the expected, most anything else would not, including Dark Sun.
Where do people keep getting such strong beliefs about what the 'majority' expects/wants/thinks/etc? Are you people running national polls on a daily basis, or something? Sheesh.
This isn't anything new. The last of the Prism Pentad is out, I believe. Also, there aren't any NEW novels planned at this point. It could have been a test run to check interest in the setting. Difficult to call.
Novels are a bad way to check interest in a setting. I despise D&D literature. It takes a miracle to get me to buy a book, for any setting, because they have all been awful in my experience. And yes, I have had experience. I have read a number of the novels before I formed my opinion (mostly from the Forgotten Realms line). If I am going to read, I want to read something good. Give me William S. Burroughs, William Gibson, Oscar Wilde, Timothy Findley, Ann Marie MacDonald, Quentin Crisp, Warren Ellis (for cmoics), J.R.R. Tolkien (even though I hate medieval European fantasy written by anyone else), Lewis Carol, George Orwell, Neil Gaimen (comics, not novels, though I did like American Gods), John Cage (for poetry), Peter Carey, Kurt Vonnegut, Ralph Ellison, Shakespeare, Art Spiegelman (for comics), Alan Moore (for comics), or some such. If I really want to read some brainless pulp fantasy, Robert Jordan, Robert E. Howard (though I am not sure I should be classifying his work as brainless), or some such are fun. But D&D fiction? Blech. Great campaign settings. Great ideas in which to set fictional stories. But I can't remember the last time I read a D&D book that I thought was actually worth my time. I'm not saying nobody should like them. I am not even saying that there are not some good D&D novels out there. But my experience with the D&D novels has been awful, and as a result I never buy or read them anymore. I have never read an Eberron novel. I have never read a Dark Sun novel. I have never read a Ravenloft novel. I have never read a Planescape novel. But I LOVE these settings. I am sure there are many more out there like me. So, what happens if someone has no interest in the novel lines, but lots of interest in the setting?
Novels are a bad way to check interest in a setting. I despise D&D literature. It takes a miracle to get me to buy a book, for any setting, because they have all been awful in my experience. And yes, I have had experience. I have read a number of the novels before I formed my opinion (mostly from the Forgotten Realms line). If I am going to read, I want to read something good. Give me William S. Burroughs, William Gibson, Oscar Wilde, Timothy Findley, Ann Marie MacDonald, Quentin Crisp, Warren Ellis (for cmoics), J.R.R. Tolkien (even though I hate medieval European fantasy written by anyone else), Lewis Carol, George Orwell, Neil Gaimen (comics, not novels, though I did like American Gods), John Cage (for poetry), Peter Carey, Kurt Vonnegut, Ralph Ellison, Shakespeare, Art Spiegelman (for comics), Alan Moore (for comics), or some such. If I really want to read some brainless pulp fantasy, Robert Jordan, Robert E. Howard (though I am not sure I should be classifying his work as brainless), or some such are fun. But D&D fiction? Blech. Great campaign settings. Great ideas in which to set fictional stories. But I can't remember the last time I read a D&D book that I thought was actually worth my time. I'm not saying nobody should like them. I am not even saying that there are not some good D&D novels out there. But my experience with the D&D novels has been awful, and as a result I never buy or read them anymore. I have never read an Eberron novel. I have never read a Dark Sun novel. I have never read a Ravenloft novel. I have never read a Planescape novel. But I LOVE these settings. I am sure there are many more out there like me. So, what happens if someone has no interest in the novel lines, but lots of interest in the setting?
The three books that started the whole D&D line of novels, in my mind, was the Hero Chronicles in Dragon Lance, with Tas the kender, and the creepiest dude that turned evil, Raistlen, and the old man that was a god.
I need to read them again...
Nothing, and I mean nothing, has been as good as those three books.
Where do people keep getting such strong beliefs about what the 'majority' expects/wants/thinks/etc? Are you people running national polls on a daily basis, or something? Sheesh.
Because Dragonlance novels actually hit bestsellers lists in the past, and those novels take up a nice chunk of a bunch of setting-specific areas in the fantasy/sci-fi sections of big box book stores? And it had numerous popular (for the genre) video games? It has also had a mainstream cartoon release? In other words, it is more mainstream, and more in the public consciousness, period. I cannot possibly see how this can be disputed.
Greyhawk is likely quite a bit closer to DS, but it is also one of the oldest D&D worlds, and was core for awhile. Which means anyone introduced to D&D via 3.X is likely to know about Greyhawk.
Ergo, DL especially would be THE most obvious choice of a new setting for the majority of folks familiar with D&D. Dark Sun would not be. And WotC indicated it would NOT be the obvious choice.
Pull out your old maps... and look at the DMG... that adventure... it's in Greyhawk
but I don't use any world really...
Athas is just my favorite place to play when I am not doing Ravenloft(a more 2e White-Wolf inspired version)
a reboot of DL would just be plain funny... Draconians and Dragonborn, that just sounds funny to me!!
A reimagined dark sun would bring a lot of new material and ideas to the game. A reboot of DL would give us nothing new. It would be all the old material over again. If you want a reboot of DL convert it yourself. IF they do DL id like to see a time skip akin to what they did to Forgotten realms because I like the changes to the realms.
Seriously man, seriously.
Seriously man, seriously.
Comment of the Year.
(I was going to come on with repeating the chorus of "You Spin Me Roun" by Dead or Alive, and have it skip back to the beginning like a broken record, but this is much more eloquent)
Seriously man, seriously.
LOL.
*cough* nice one!*cough*
NOT DRAGONLANCE
So... are we all Excited about Dark Sun or what?!
Personally I cant wait much longer... I have already begun making maps for my campaign, never realized how much information there was on Athas!! Seriously!!
I just ope they don't mess up anything like they did to Forgotten Realms... It would be interesting though... especially after the Black Spine Adventure(3 books with some serious non athasian things)
Hmmm... Githzerai or Githyanki as a standard race in Athas now maybe??
This is for Darksun right??
NOT DRAGONLANCE
So... are we all Excited about Dark Sun or what?!
Personally I cant wait much longer... I have already begun making maps for my campaign, never realized how much information there was on Athas!! Seriously!!
I just ope they don't mess up anything like they did to Forgotten Realms... It would be interesting though... especially after the Black Spine Adventure(3 books with some serious non athasian things)
Hmmm... Githzerai or Githyanki as a standard race in Athas now maybe??
Not sure if you're clear on this or not. It isn't confirmed to be Dark Sun, many of us just suspect that this is going to be the new setting.
Well I for one think it will not be DS. There has been no solid information on the next setting however of the ones that have had "spoilers" DS is at the bottom of the list. Also the only setting information given so far happened on aprils fools day. That should be a hint. DS will not be 2010.
DL has had quite a few "spoilers" mentioned. And currently has minis coming out in the next release. If they were not going to make DL they would not need sivak draconians.
There's been a lot more for Dark Sun than the mention of Defilers.
Hmmm... Githzerai or Githyanki as a standard race in Athas now maybe??
IIRC Athas had a thing called "Gith Pirates" or something like that.
I am not Argueing with you... I just like that setting.. and who knows, this could be the official unnofficial Dark Sun Forum... since we(most of us) really want it to be the next official setting... even if its not... I will still chomp at the bit!!!
I look forward to seeing the updates to the character builder, all the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and even reading like 20-30 threads here and there...
I just cant wait...
I am not Argueing with you... I just like that setting.. and who knows, this could be the official unnofficial Dark Sun Forum... since we(most of us) really want it to be the next official setting... even if its not... I will still chomp at the bit!!!
I look forward to seeing the updates to the character builder, all the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and even reading like 20-30 threads here and there...
I just cant wait...
If by most of you means 10 or 12 vocal people on the message boards then you have your demographics correct.
I am not Argueing with you... I just like that setting.. and who knows, this could be the official unnofficial Dark Sun Forum... since we(most of us) really want it to be the next official setting... even if its not... I will still chomp at the bit!!!
I look forward to seeing the updates to the character builder, all the Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and even reading like 20-30 threads here and there...
I just cant wait...
The flaw in this is that the next setting has been chosen already, so all your posting, all your arguing, its for nothing, less than nothing even, as it will have no bearing on anything other than how you have wasted your time.
Personally I like DS, and Loathe DL, like Ravenloft, and loathe Birthright
thats just me! but you said the next setting has been chosen? what is it, so I can adapt it to my next and or current non DARK SUN campaign!!
and prepare to buy or not buy the books... most likely I will buy them anyway, since like most DM's we like to have everything!!
This is not a Flame War, but a polite discussion on a 2010 release of Darksun... even if it is not the setting for 2010
I will be in the Dark Sun for 2011 setting thread, or the 2012(end of world), and PA 1(for you rifts fans)
I meant most of us on this thread... it is DS thread, and whether you like or dislike DS it is the right place for both types of comments...
Personally I like DS, and Loathe DL, like Ravenloft, and loathe Birthright
thats just me! but you said the next setting has been chosen? what is it, so I can adapt it to my next and or current non DARK SUN campaign!!
and prepare to buy or not buy the books... most likely I will buy them anyway, since like most DM's we like to have everything!!
This is not a Flame War, but a polite discussion on a 2010 release of Darksun... even if it is not the setting for 2010
I will be in the Dark Sun for 2011 setting thread, or the 2012(end of world), and PA 1(for you rifts fans)
When they tell us at Gencon in August we will let ya know.
IIRC Athas had a thing called "Gith Pirates" or something like that.
Pirates of Gith are from Spelljammer, not Dark Sun!
they are a clan? of githyyanki who can shunt their ships back and forth from the Astral Plane to ambush other ships, provided they have a living ship (like an elven Man-O-War)Gith are a creature form Dark Sun.
Personally I like DS, and Loathe DL, like Ravenloft, and loathe Birthright
Them's fighting words!!! :hoppingma
:P
Pentality card on the Dragonlance fans. You have your thread spread your theories there. This thread is about theories based on Dark Sun. Agging the DS fans on here isn't conductive for any decent conversation. Dang it people your making this sound like console wars. They're just settings, most the time GM homebrew their own. And DS fans, ignore em and get back to talking about Dark Sun.
For Darksun I hope they do like they did with Forgotten realms and fast forward the timeline rather than reset it because I actually liked the prism pentadad books, as well as the tribe of one books.
For Darksun I hope they do like they did with Forgotten realms and fast forward the timeline rather than reset it because I actually liked the prism pentadad books, as well as the tribe of one books.
My only issue is that both those books are tied heavily in the 2nd Edition mythology. If they are going to do DS the setting could do with a bit of rethinking. They did say they wanted to do Dark Sun but give it a touch more of the Sword and Sorcery feel of settings like Conan, etc. (There is a difference. Allbeit slight.)
I agree the books were good I'm just wondering if they're the kinda material they want to focus on for a 4E version of the setting.
My only issue is that both those books are tied heavily in the 2nd Edition mythology. If they are going to do DS the setting could do with a bit of rethinking. They did say they wanted to do Dark Sun but give it a touch more of the Sword and Sorcery feel of settings like Conan, etc. (There is a difference. Allbeit slight.)
I agree the books were good I'm just wondering if they're the kinda material they want to focus on for a 4E version of the setting.
Thats true. I wouldnt mind them reimagining it in some way, I just dont want to see them simply push the reset button.
Thats true. I wouldnt mind them reimagining it in some way, I just dont want to see them simply push the reset button.
That's what I'm thinking. It would be easier to take the essence of the Dark Sun game, some of the plot developments from 2E days and totally rework the setting so it works better in 4E. The last thing I want is the Edition crowbar they used on a lot of settings in 3E days.
That's what I'm thinking. It would be easier to take the essence of the Dark Sun game, some of the plot developments from 2E days and totally rework the setting so it works better in 4E. The last thing I want is the Edition crowbar they used on a lot of settings in 3E days.
Yeah I wouldnlt mind if they changed the history of it. I can easily see it working as a setting where the primordials beat the gods away from the world, but at the same time were also devestated so they arent directly involved but can power things like the elemental clerics. Keep the flavour of the setting while making it fit the current eddition.
Yeah I wouldnlt mind if they changed the history of it. I can easily see it working as a setting where the primordials beat the gods away from the world, but at the same time were also devestated so they arent directly involved but can power things like the elemental clerics. Keep the flavour of the setting while making it fit the current eddition.
Thats very true, whilel a Druid would be more like the guardian of a sleeping Primordial's body... which could be their guarded lands.
the Warlock class could be extremely interesting in the 4e DS setting(completely new pact's? say divine pact with a god??)... as well as the Genesai race... hmm, an Earth Genesai that has a more metallic manifistation could be the prize gladiator for a dragon king.
Thats very true, whilel a Druid would be more like the guardian of a sleeping Primordial's body... which could be their guarded lands.
Actually, in this regard, I like some of the original lore a little better, to separate the primal and elemental power sources. Druids, throughout history, starting with the pyreen, began to consolidate their consciousnesses upon death/apotheosis/whatever. As they grew more in touch with the land, and as time progressed with the spirit(s) of the land, they eventually merged with a spirit in their chosen area while on this world. When they were done, they simply finished the merging. Thus, modern spirits of the land are a massive multi-personality spiritual essence of all druids (and other primal classes, by extension) protecting that area for thousands of years.
This separates them quite nicely from the primordials, and their elemental influence. Thus, elemental and/or divine classes (such as clerics) serve primordials and their progeny, whereas primal classes instead serve these ancient spirits that have literally merged with the land itself.
what I remember of athasian Druids they had a guarded land which affected their sphere of influence, ie; a babbling brook= water, a plateau= earth, while a geyser would have been fire/earth/water
I hear you about the whole spirit thing... just thought that that was a primal thing, not an elemental one... Primordials were to a degree greater elementals though arent they? like on the Diefic scale, but still elemental?
Actually, in this regard, I like some of the original lore a little better, to separate the primal and elemental power sources. Druids, throughout history, starting with the pyreen, began to consolidate their consciousnesses upon death/apotheosis/whatever. As they grew more in touch with the land, and as time progressed with the spirit(s) of the land, they eventually merged with a spirit in their chosen area while on this world. When they were done, they simply finished the merging. Thus, modern spirits of the land are a massive multi-personality spiritual essence of all druids (and other primal classes, by extension) protecting that area for thousands of years.
This separates them quite nicely from the primordials, and their elemental influence. Thus, elemental and/or divine classes (such as clerics) serve primordials and their progeny, whereas primal classes instead serve these ancient spirits that have literally merged with the land itself.
I like these ideas as well
Tectuktitlay, are you talking about Athasian druids or standard Primal Druids?
Athasian druids. As more novels and lore came out, they modified it from protecting a specific stretch of land but able to connect with the elements like clerics do (save without an elemental patron), to a mythology where as druids "retired" they merged with their local Spirit of the Land, which helped provide the training and power boost druids normally received on their protected lands. The pyreen started the process, but druids of all races continued the practice for thousands of years afterwards. Each Spirit of the Land is thus an amalgamated spiritual mass of all previous druids who protected those lands, merged into a single mass consciousness. They also hinted that all Spirits of the Land are connected together as one great big Spirit of the Land covering all of Athas.
what I remember of athasian Druids they had a guarded land which affected their sphere of influence, ie; a babbling brook= water, a plateau= earth, while a geyser would have been fire/earth/water
Only at the beginning, but that changed as more lore was developed and detailed.
I hear you about the whole spirit thing... just thought that that was a primal thing, not an elemental one... Primordials were to a degree greater elementals though arent they? like on the Diefic scale, but still elemental?
No, no, you misunderstand. Druids and the other Primal classes would interact with the Spirits of the Land, but "Divine" and/or Elemental classes would instead interact with Primordials and other elemental beings. Divine classes would not only cover being in the service of the Primordials, but could also cover the various types of Templars who receive magical power from the appropriate Sorcerer-Monarch.
Only at the beginning, but that changed as more lore was developed and detailed.
Ahh, that explained it. I never got into all the lore, my foray's into darksun used the first stuff... no Dray, Pterron, or Aracokra
I am waiting for my novels from amazon, and after looking at Athas.org and the Wiki about Darksun(someone had some spare time there!) I am more interested in it now... its the only real original DnD setting ( I mean that in a good way, it's not standard tolkien fantasy, granted that it used some stuff... it was totally different from anything that had been TSR )
Now I really want it to come out... it don't matter when ( well it does matter), just as long as it gets a 4e facelift in a good way... not like a first year Plastic surgeon, more like a McNamara/Troy one(for you nip/tuck fans)
Ahh, that explained it. I never got into all the lore, my foray's into darksun used the first stuff... no Dray, Pterron, or Aracokra
I am waiting for my novels from amazon, and after looking at Athas.org and the Wiki about Darksun(someone had some spare time there!) I am more interested in it now... its the only real original DnD setting ( I mean that in a good way, it's not standard tolkien fantasy, granted that it used some stuff... it was totally different from anything that had been TSR )
Now I really want it to come out... it don't matter when ( well it does matter), just as long as it gets a 4e facelift in a good way... not like a first year Plastic surgeon, more like a McNamara/Troy one(for you nip/tuck fans)
Considering the face lift FR got I think we will be in luck. They actually made the realms interesting. Even if Elminster is still alive.
hmm... PHB3 with Psion... wonder if that means they are play-testing Dark Sun??
could they have Thri-kreen in the MM3??
ooh... getting close!!! anyone else get chills??
hoping it's Dark Sun...but it may not be...we will see!
well from todays ampersand (&)
The 25th anniversary celebration of the Dragonlance campaign world is fast approaching. Next month, the final volume in Lost Chronicles Trilogy by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, Dragons of the Hourglass Mage, explodes on the scene. We also have a bunch of other celebratory happenings going on such as contests and an event at GenCon, as well as the debut of 4th Edition D&D draconians—first in the Monster Manual: Legendary Evils miniatures set and then in Draconomicon: Metallic Dragons in November. My contribution to the celebration, at least for this month, is to provide the stats for the two draconian types appearing in the minis set. Hey DMs, spice up your next encounter by throwing some of these guys into the mix!
so I belive that knocks down atleast 1 bit for DL 2010...but nothing to help DS yet this month...
Now I'm a bit worried.
Dragonlance is interesting but Dark Sun may draw more attention from both old and new players because it is much more different from the other settings already out for 4e.
Dark Sun is also better for the PHB 3 sales since psionics is heavily supported by the setting flavor.
Dark Sun will make more money and attract more new customers. That makes it a smart choice for 2010.
I'm pretty sure the devs are having the same convo as us, about to roll out the current CS, and planning for next summer. I wonder if they've actually decided. They may be (should be) evaulating which setting would bring in better sales.
Whatever setting is coming next year, it's already done. Well, it's at least half done, as far along as the PHB3. In other words, the decision was made months ago, if not a year or two ago. They aren't changing it now, no matter how many people whine, *****, and moan.
Whatever setting is coming next year, it's already done. Well, it's at least half done, as far along as the PHB3. In other words, the decision was made months ago, if not a year or two ago. They aren't changing it now, no matter how many people whine, *****, and moan.
Yeah I imagine they at the very least have a 1 year ahead planned out. It must be amusing for the developers to see us flailing about, I would be amused :P
I'm pretty sure the devs are having the same convo as us, about to roll out the current CS, and planning for next summer. I wonder if they've actually decided. They may be (should be) evaulating which setting would bring in better sales.
Assuming that the schedule for next year is roughly the same as this year and that the development schedule is roughly the same for all books, the 2010 campaign setting books are around 3 months away from having the text finalized and being sent out for layouts and such. They know what the setting is. :P
Assuming that the schedule for next year is roughly the same as this year and that the development schedule is roughly the same for all books, the 2010 campaign setting books are around 3 months away from having the text finalized and being sent out for layouts and such. They know what the setting is. :P
I really hope its darksun, or al qaudim (sorry if i spelled it wrong)
Yeah I imagine they at the very least have a 1 year ahead planned out. It must be amusing for the developers to see us flailing about, I would be amused :P
David Chirst told me last year around november (one of the game days) that the 2010 setting had already be decided and they had began preliminary work on it. Apparently they plan way in advance.
It's al-qadim. No need to add the "u".
ah my mistake still I never played in it but it seems like a cool setting that would be unique.
To be honest, the races of the PHB 3 seem to fit better with Spelljammer than Dark Sun. However, releasing Spelljammer before a large number of other settings have been released seems like something of a mistake. Minotaurs fit with Dragonlance, but nothing else about the PHB 3 does. I am almost beginning to suspect that the 2010 setting will be something totally new, something involving the Far Realm and Psionics. I really hope I am wrong though, because what I really want to see is a 4e Dark Sun setting.
I am almost beginning to suspect that the 2010 setting will be something totally new, something involving the Far Realm and Psionics. I really hope I am wrong though, because what I really want to see is a 4e Dark Sun setting.
Hmm... that does sound interesting!! Dark Sun might have something like Spellscarred from forgotten realms that deals with Psionics... maybe they rewrote it to fit more with the feel of 4e.
I haven't looked at the psion stuff in the CB yet, it's only the first 3 levels and even those could change, like a teaser to get you hooked. Hopefully they only released an example of psionics! and they have everything else completely different!
what are the races for the PHB3?
I haven't looked at the psion stuff in the CB yet, it's only the first 3 levels and even those could change, like a teaser to get you hooked. Hopefully they only released an example of psionics! and they have everything else completely different!
what are the races for the PHB3?
The psion was not released with only 3 levels. The psion was released with 30 levels worth of one build. And they have made numerous confirmations that psionics, flavor wise, is across the board a result of the Far Realms incursion into the Prime Material Plane.
Mechanically, psionics in 4e is still very reminiscent of earlier editions. The mechanics would still work perfectly in Dark Sun. But the flavor text behind them is very different than Dark Sun's flavor text. It has much more in common with the Gith/Illithid wars to be honest.
As for the races in the PHB 3, as I said, the confirmed races (so far) are Minotaur, Githyanki, Githrazai, and Wilden.
The psion was not released with only 3 levels. The psion was released with 30 levels worth of one build. And they have made numerous confirmations that psionics, flavor wise, is across the board a result of the Far Realms incursion into the Prime Material Plane.
Mechanically, psionics in 4e is still very reminiscent of earlier editions. The mechanics would still work perfectly in Dark Sun. But the flavor text behind them is very different than Dark Sun's flavor text. It has much more in common with the Gith/Illithid wars to be honest.
As for the races in the PHB 3, as I said, the confirmed races (so far) are Minotaur, Githyanki, Githrazai, and Wilden.
Maybe if they do darksun they will change it the devestation was caused by far realm entities.
Maybe if they do darksun they will change it the devestation was caused by far realm entities.
That would sort of take a lot away from the setting. It changes the theme from a world destroyed by war, a world destroyed by its own people, to a world destroyed by outside influence. Not nearly as interesting or dynamic. I think the whole "we did this to ourselves," post magical version of an atomic war flavor of Dark Sun is part of what makes the setting. I suppose it might work if one of the weapons of war in the settings past were spells capable of ripping holes into the far realm... but it still feels wrong. I mean, its supposed to be the debilitating effect of life being sucked out of things via magical use. The whole idea is that any spell casting sucks the life out of living things. I don't know. The two just don't seem compatible.
there are so many things that they are doing all at once... and with them getting ready for M10, wotc has their primary focus in that direction atm...
well just my
as long as it's in the Compendium, I'll use it(who needs paper books anymore!!)(sorry, you guys are ooolllldddd)
Dark Sun will make more money and attract more new customers. That makes it a smart choice for 2010.
There isn't anyway for us to know that. And there's one thing you aren't considering. Dragonlance novels will likely sell better than Darksun ones will. In fact the money the novels make likely dwarf what is made by the release of two sourcebooks and an adventure.
We all hype up the campaign settings for some reason. But for WotC they are actually rather minor compared to their other sourcebooks and the novels.
I was considering it, since it didn't get a 3.5 setting. Most of the current D&D generation doesn't know much about it, has little exposure.
(sorry, you guys are ooolllldddd)
I just turned 32... so does that make me a middle aged gamer?
I was in middleschool when DS came out and I learned to read playing Dungeons and Dragons!! My kids learned from Pokemon(gameboy SP and DSlite)
But seriously, what would you gauge the target audience fo D&D as? it is a broad grp (middle school and up). but what is the largest collective? 18-21(college?), 21+ (college +?)
I am 21, started D&D with 3e in 6th grade. (my dad bought it, and thought it was rubbish, he is still a 2e flunky, he hasn't played in 21ish years
).My point is, what percentage of current D&D players remember DS?
SP, eh?
I think we can all agree with maximum certainty: the 2010 campaign setting is going to be Sigil Prep.
I vigorously deny that until my non-disclosure agreement runs out.
I vigorously deny that until my non-disclosure agreement runs out.
LOL if it is sigil Ill be happy to see what it looks like never got to use it during 2e.
That might mike sense... do something with the planes, then branch out from there... man I hope they just keep it 4e not a bunch of revisions, then they could do all the settings!! anyone know what the longest running edition was? was it 1st or 2nd(not counting that 2.5 crap...)
Sigil?? that Planescapes??
That might mike sense... do something with the planes, then branch out from there... man I hope they just keep it 4e not a bunch of revisions, then they could do all the settings!! anyone know what the longest running edition was? was it 1st or 2nd(not counting that 2.5 crap...)
well yeah with the internet and more information things happen faster now. Id like to see sigil or dark sun either would be good.
It's not Planescape for the 100th time. WotC's said, repeatedly, taht Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer have all been folded into the general rules - they aren't getting seperate treatments. You want more Sigil, you buy DMG2.
they also said it would be a suprise and I can imagine few things as surprising as a fully fleshed out plane scape.
It's not Planescape for the 100th time. WotC's said, repeatedly, taht Planescape, Ravenloft, and Spelljammer have all been folded into the general rules - they aren't getting seperate treatments. You want more Sigil, you buy DMG2.
Has Wizards actually said this? I mean this certainly appears to be the case, and I think that releasing any of those setting would be a waste of a Campaign Setting slot since they can explore the material in other ways, but has WotC actually stated that they won't do those settings? I certainly can't remember any instances of that.
Has Wizards actually said this? I mean this certainly appears to be the case, and I think that releasing any of those setting would be a waste of a Campaign Setting slot since they can explore the material in other ways, but has WotC actually stated that they won't do those settings? I certainly can't remember any instances of that.
Chris Perkins (I think it was him) said those settings were not getting full campaign treatments in one of these 2010 threads.
they also said it would be a suprise and I can imagine few things as surprising as a fully fleshed out plane scape.
Sigil is going to be in the DMG2. Why on earth would they have a Planescape CS the year after Sigil appears in the DMG2?
Sigil is going to be in the DMG2. Why on earth would they have a Planescape CS the year after Sigil appears in the DMG2?
eh thats cool then I just thought there was more to plane scape then just sigil. I never really saw the old one but Id love more material making planar campaigns possible.
Sigil is going to be in the DMG2. Why on earth would they have a Planescape CS the year after Sigil appears in the DMG2?
Kinda what I was thinking. Besides, Planescape is kinda getting put out in all of the planar books (yes, I know we only have two, Manual of the Planes and the Plane Below, but still). It would be an awful big waste for it to be put out instead of other settings.
Though I want the Bariaur back. Goat-Centaurs RULE!
On-Topic: Dark Sun for 2011 (hopefully with Elemental Power Source and MORE psionic classes).
Chris Perkins (I think it was him) said those settings were not getting full campaign treatments in one of these 2010 threads.
Thank you for making that search for old info so much easier then it could have been. Here is the post that you were refrencing:
Some of the settings you mention have had their key concepts "absorbed" into 4E. For instance, Manual of the Planes contains information on "spelljammers" (from the Spelljammer® setting), "domains of dread" (from the Ravenloft® setting), and Sigil (from the Planescape® setting). One of the goals was to show how well these elements can work together in 4E without having to fracture the D&D game or its audience.
He doesn't outright state that the settings won't be made. You can get the implication from reading it though. However later in the same thread, he says this:
A petition isn't likely to resurrect Mystara, I'm afraid. What Mystara lacks is a real hook that sets it apart from generic D&D and other specific D&D settings. (I've always considered Hollow World a more intriguing setting for exactly this reason.)
On the other hand, Ravenloft has a hook (Gothic horror fantasy) that no other D&D setting treads on, which is something worth exploring when the time is right.
Chris
From this it can basically be read that even though the key concept has been absorbed, there is still a chance for Raveloft to be made into a seperate setting. As such, I don't think you can count any of the "absorbed" setting out completely......although it might be a bit early to see them.
Good job people!
I just want to make sure people are all caught up on all the information about next year's setting, for and againsts Dark Sun (which I am pulling for), and I have that all compiled (or at least all the new info since I started the site about a month ago), check it out @ www.4espoilers.blogspot.com for the info just on the next setting, check http://4espoilers.blogspot.com/search/label/2010%20Setting
I support a 4e DS completely and look forward to it in 2011-2012, right after they release dragonlance.;)
You mean before a new setting before DL.
You mean before a new setting before DL.
Like, a brand new setting? If not, aside from dragonlance and darksun they are running low on ideas. We already have eberron, so I'm not sure what else they can do. A setting that focuses on incarnum and the tome of magic?
A completely futuristic setting (which is just planescape and spelljammer)
I'm almost 100% sure dragonlance will be the next setting to be released. We will know soon enough.
Like, a brand new setting? If not, aside from dragonlance and darksun they are running low on ideas. We already have eberron, so I'm not sure what else they can do. A setting that focuses on incarnum and the tome of magic?
A completely futuristic setting (which is just planescape and spelljammer)
I'm almost 100% sure dragonlance will be the next setting to be released. We will know soon enough.
How bout a setting with lots of islands where the world isnt explored that much. Where the society in some parts is rennasance style. I can see a number of possibilities for it.
Im currently developing an ice age like setting, as well as one centered around a meditreanean like area with lots of city states and couple of small empires. Im basing some of it off a mix of mythology, dnd lore and history. The minoans for instance are a combination of tieflings and minatours.
How bout a setting with lots of islands where the world isnt explored that much. Where the society in some parts is rennasance style. I can see a number of possibilities for it.
Im currently developing an ice age like setting, as well as one centered around a meditreanean like area with lots of city states and couple of small empires. Im basing some of it off a mix of mythology, dnd lore and history. The minoans for instance are a combination of tieflings and minatours.
Sounds interesting. But those are your own ideas, anything concrete from wotc on a new setting? I'v been away from this forum for a long time.
If they only release a campaign guide and a players guide for each setting in 4e, I don't see how a new setting would be a success. It would need much more content. As it is with anything older that they release, we have existing material to draw from and convert ourselves. So Forgotten realms and eberron, dragonlance and darksun can work because of that fact. Even with timeline jumps, catastrophic events and lack of new material beyond the dual-core books.
Still, I'm not opposed to a completely new setting. Although I don't really want the 4e d&d version of Pirates of the Carribean or darkwater.
Still, I'm not opposed to a completely new setting. Although I don't really want the 4e d&d version of Pirates of the Carribean or darkwater.
Darkwater?? haven't heard that in ages!! I diodn't think anyone remembered it still!!
lets see here we have European fantasy in FR
Whats Eberron? I played DDO for a while, it felt kinda European
they have mentioned that a setting would need a specific hook/genre, so that means that we might see a ravenloft... its gothic horror
Sounds interesting. But those are your own ideas, anything concrete from wotc on a new setting? I'v been away from this forum for a long time.
If they only release a campaign guide and a players guide for each setting in 4e, I don't see how a new setting would be a success. It would need much more content. As it is with anything older that they release, we have existing material to draw from and convert ourselves. So Forgotten realms and eberron, dragonlance and darksun can work because of that fact. Even with timeline jumps, catastrophic events and lack of new material beyond the dual-core books.
Still, I'm not opposed to a completely new setting. Although I don't really want the 4e d&d version of Pirates of the Carribean or darkwater.
Dark water would be awsome and nothing concrete yet but Im hoping the 2011 setting is something new maybe one of the runners up in the contest that gave us Ebaron.
:D
But seriously, what would you gauge the target audience fo D&D as? it is a broad grp (middle school and up). but what is the largest collective? 18-21(college?), 21+ (college +?)
I am 21, started D&D with 3e in 6th grade. (my dad bought it, and thought it was rubbish, he is still a 2e flunky, he hasn't played in 21ish years
My point is, what percentage of current D&D players remember DS?
More people then post people think but not as many as fans of the setting think.
But there is an advantage to this, unlike DL that has dozens of books, lots of rabid fans, Dark Sun can get away with more changes to its setting (kind like adding in Dragonborn and Deva) then DL. Don't get me wrong I like DL but DS has a special place in my heart (most likely cause I'm the Psi-Freak of the group). It has the least amount of cannon to worry about, and more importantly its themeatically Different the DL. (DL is more or less Hight Fantasy, High magic similar to FR and Eberron)
More people then post people think but not as many as fans of the setting think.
But there is an advantage to this, unlike DL that has dozens of books, lots of rabid fans, Dark Sun can get away with more changes to its setting (kind like adding in Dragonborn and Deva) then DL. Don't get me wrong I like DL but DS has a special place in my heart (most likely cause I'm the Psi-Freak of the group). It has the least amount of cannon to worry about, and more importantly its themeatically Different the DL. (DL is more or less Hight Fantasy, High magic similar to FR and Eberron)
I agree especially on the ability to change the setting as long as they keep the core premise of a world torn apart thats a giant desert with cities that arent really much safer than the desert and psionics being important I think they could get away with a lot.
I agree especially on the ability to change the setting as long as they keep the core premise of a world torn apart thats a giant desert with cities that arent really much safer than the desert and psionics being important I think they could get away with a lot.
The problem is is that Psionics in 3rd and 4th edition are nothing like they were in 1st and 2nd edition when DS was out as a world. Psionics back then were just extra things you added to whatever race/class you were. In 4th Psionics is just a power source and not an add on. So I dont see Psionics in a 4th edition DS having the same importance as Psionics in a 1st or 2nd edition DS.
The problem is is that Psionics in 3rd and 4th edition are nothing like they were in 1st and 2nd edition when DS was out as a world. Psionics back then were just extra things you added to whatever race/class you were. In 4th Psionics is just a power source and not an add on. So I dont see Psionics in a 4th edition DS having the same importance as Psionics in a 1st or 2nd edition DS.
They solved the "wild talent" problem in 3e with a feat. It could similarly be solved in 4e. There are any number of easy fixes which would still capture the Dark Sun flavor. I mean, for example, all Dark Sun characters might start with one extra at-will, a psionic at-will, and gain a small number of (extra) power points with which to augment it (even if they are not psionic classes). Or they might solve it with a different route. Point is, its not a hard problem to solve. Dark Sun would work perfectly well with 4e rules.
there are many things they could do, and the current psion preview is just nowhere good enough... monk should be a hybrid style character... psionics/martial... i am just dissapointed with the psion so far... maybe it will be tweaked in the next update and make more sense!
hmm... lots of possabilities! we just need someone to leak more information besides a few carnivorous plants!
They solved the "wild talent" problem in 3e with a feat. It could similarly be solved in 4e. There are any number of easy fixes which would still capture the Dark Sun flavor. I mean, for example, all Dark Sun characters might start with one extra at-will, a psionic at-will, and gain a small number of (extra) power points with which to augment it (even if they are not psionic classes). Or they might solve it with a different route. Point is, its not a hard problem to solve. Dark Sun would work perfectly well with 4e rules.
What about using or paralleling regional character backgrounds? You just simply gain a small benefit when you pick a certain background or talent.
Our editorial staff now is comprised of Nina Hess, Senior Editor for the Mirrorstone imprint, who is our resident expert in the field of fiction for young readers; and the editors Susan Morris, the Forgotten Realms line editor; Fleetwood Robbins, who we lured away from Del Rey to work on Magic: the Gathering and Dark Sun; and Erin Evans, who’s primary responsibility now is Eberron, but who also works on some Forgotten Realms titles, and will be working on some new stuff we’re cooking up for 2011.
Now I assume Mr. Robbins is not editing old Dark Sun novels, so the only real reason to have new DS novels could be for the new campaign setting.
Right?
Bel
In today's Spotlight Interview with Phil Athans WotC asked about a day in the life of a Senior Managing Editor, part of the response was a list of the editorial staff;
Now I assume Mr. Robbins is not editing old Dark Sun novels, so the only real reason to have new DS novels could be for the new campaign setting.
Right?
Bel
The 1st novels that led into the changes we saw in 4th edition in Forgotten realms came out a year previous to 4th editions release and the campaigns release. There are no DS books on the 2009 schedule at all but there are 7 new DL novels this year. I have not read any of them to be able to tell you if there is anything in there to hint at a transition as we saw in the FR novels.
With this information just coming to light it seems more likely that Darksun would be the 2011 setting. And the sentence you are quoting itself even mentions the new stuff for 2011. We will likely see DS novels coming out next year prepping us for the DS setting in 2011.
We will know next month but I have said for many months now its DL (or Greyhawk) in 2010 and Darksun in 2011.
The 1st novels that led into the changes we saw in 4th edition in Forgotten realms came out a year previous to 4th editions release and the campaigns release. There are no DS books on the 2009 schedule at all but there are 7 new DL novels this year. I have not read any of them to be able to tell you if there is anything in there to hint at a transition as we saw in the FR novels.
With this information just coming to light it seems more likely that Darksun would be the 2011 setting. And the sentence you are quoting itself even mentions the new stuff for 2011. We will likely see DS novels coming out next year prepping us for the DS setting in 2011.
We will know next month but I have said for many months now its DL (or Greyhawk) in 2010 and Darksun in 2011.
GOD I hope not 3 former settings in a row is enough. 2011 had best be a new setting entirley. And if this year is DL I know a lot of people who will be disapointed. No one I know would buy a DL book. Though if they include black powder weapon rules that would change...
GOD I hope not 3 former settings in a row is enough. 2011 had best be a new setting entirely. And if this year is DL I know a lot of people who will be disappointed. No one I know would buy a DL book. Though if they include black powder weapon rules that would change...
And I know 1 person that would buy any DS books. Of course that person is the only one that I know of that purchased or will purchase any of the Eberron books as well (although we might have one other that might buy the players guide for the Warforged stuff).
And DS in 2011 would basically be a new setting. It hasn't been published for well over a decade and would have to be re-imagined I would assume.
WOTC is fully aware of the large fan base of DL. Maybe not where you are but its fan base is much larger than is the DS fan base. And as a business it all comes down to money. You either publish something with a built in fan base and purchasing power, or you take your chance at something totally new and unseen before and roll the dice hoping it sells.
GOD I hope not 3 former settings in a row is enough. 2011 had best be a new setting entirley. And if this year is DL I know a lot of people who will be disapointed. No one I know would buy a DL book. Though if they include black powder weapon rules that would change...
I really need that broken record image again ....
Anyways, prepare to be disappointed for the next several years. WotC is not going to do a brand new setting until all the power sources are out at the earliest. Frankly, I doubt they'll do a new setting period.
I really need that broken record image again ....
Anyways, prepare to be disappointed for the next several years. WotC is not going to do a brand new setting until all the power sources are out at the earliest. Frankly, I doubt they'll do a new setting period.
Personally, I wouldn't be so sure of that. I know WotC wants to revisit a number of their older properties, but that's no guarantee they won't try something new soon, too. (Rich Baker's setting, I'm looking at you!)
I really need that broken record image again ....
Anyways, prepare to be disappointed for the next several years. WotC is not going to do a brand new setting until all the power sources are out at the earliest. Frankly, I doubt they'll do a new setting period.
Why? Whats wrong with a new setting over the same material? People who want to play dl already can using the old material they have especially with draconians in the new draconomicon. Ebaron was the best setting so far released for dnd another new setting could be equally as good.
The 1st novels that led into the changes we saw in 4th edition in Forgotten realms came out a year previous to 4th editions release and the campaigns release. There are no DS books on the 2009 schedule at all but there are 7 new DL novels this year. I have not read any of them to be able to tell you if there is anything in there to hint at a transition as we saw in the FR novels.
With this information just coming to light it seems more likely that Darksun would be the 2011 setting. And the sentence you are quoting itself even mentions the new stuff for 2011. We will likely see DS novels coming out next year prepping us for the DS setting in 2011.
We will know next month but I have said for many months now its DL (or Greyhawk) in 2010 and Darksun in 2011.
The sentence he quoted mentioned Magic: The Gathering and Dark Sun. Now Magic has stuff being released every year and Dark Sun is not confirmed for 2011, so how exactly do you think he was dragged away from something to work on stuff for 2011 when the stuff mentioned in the sentence he quoted is stuff that is not necessarily related to 2011?
If anything, this is a big indicator that Dark Sun is 2010.
could you imagine a M:TG campaign setting!
Actually, I picked up the Planeswalker's Guide to Alara awhile back, and it seemed a pretty good place for a DnD campeign. Also, of course Dominiria (sp) would be great.
But it would be like civil war for WotC.
Actually, I picked up the Planeswalker's Guide to Alara awhile back, and it seemed a pretty good place for a DnD campeign. Also, of course Dominiria (sp) would be great.
But it would be like civil war for WotC.
Dominiria would be a nice setting.
The sentence he quoted mentioned Magic: The Gathering and Dark Sun. Now Magic has stuff being released every year and Dark Sun is not confirmed for 2011, so how exactly do you think he was dragged away from something to work on stuff for 2011 when the stuff mentioned in the sentence he quoted is stuff that is not necessarily related to 2011?
If anything, this is a big indicator that Dark Sun is 2010.
I entirely agree. Have read most of the speculation about next year's setting and still held out hope it would be Greyhawk but I think this confirms Dark Sun without a doubt. I know there were FR transition novels coming out a year before the setting but the FR novel line has had constant new titles every year for 20+ years. This new editor has been brought in to edit new Dark Sun novels that will publish next year as part of the setting launch.
Disappointed but can't argue with the evidence
I think that's kind of curious.
I entirely agree. Have read most of the speculation about next year's setting and still held out hope it would be Greyhawk but I think this confirms Dark Sun without a doubt. I know there were FR transition novels coming out a year before the setting but the FR novel line has had constant new titles every year for 20+ years. This new editor has been brought in to edit new Dark Sun novels that will publish next year as part of the setting launch.
Disappointed but can't argue with the evidence
It will all be good. Besides Im just curious other than maps which are in the old grey hawk setting guide what do you need to run a grey hawk game thats not in core?
My guess is if it isn't Dark Sun in 2010 then its Magic. I do not see Dragon Lance entering in to it for 2010.
http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=10630826&postcount=9
I think that's kind of curious.
That's not quite news, because he's been saying the same thing in like three different threads on this board lately, too, not to mention the fact that he's not at all in the loop with regards to WotC's publishing plans -- WotC could very well be publishing DL next year, and Cam probably wouldn't hear about it until the rest of us do, as it stands right now.
Anyway, you're right: it's "curious", it's another straw on the camel's back, but it's still not conclusive.
Whether or not you like Fallout 3, it did give the series mainstream popularity and was a pretty huge success, and from what I understand Dark Sun has a pretty similar vibe.
I hope its Dark Sun as that means WotC won't ruin Dragonlance (yet).
Based on your posts and your sig, you obviously don't like D&D. So why do you still post here?
I hope its Dark Sun as that means WotC won't ruin Dragonlance (yet).
You mean like going through another 5th age?
Even has Psionics built in! :D
Sadly ever seeing a 4e version is just a pipe dream.
That I'd put money on. My old group used the mutation rules from GW for so long the book came apart.
Never saw gama world looks neat though. Id buy it.
If nothing else, we know that Gamma World fits as an old TSR/WotC property to be renewed...
and has an a in the title and would be a surprise.
It will all be good. Besides Im just curious other than maps which are in the old grey hawk setting guide what do you need to run a grey hawk game thats not in core?
Agree it will be good and I'll buy it. As to what you need to run a GH game beyond the old boxed set - nothing. I would just like to see it get some official support and be updated to 4E. Curious to see how WotC do it more than anything plus it would be nice for it to be an official setting again rather than just fan-supported. Whether GH comes out in 4E has no bearing on whether I can run 4E games in the setting. Would just be nice is all :D
Agree it will be good and I'll buy it. As to what you need to run a GH game beyond the old boxed set - nothing. I would just like to see it get some official support and be updated to 4E. Curious to see how WotC do it more than anything plus it would be nice for it to be an official setting again rather than just fan-supported. Whether GH comes out in 4E has no bearing on whether I can run 4E games in the setting. Would just be nice is all :D
K was just wondering my only familiarity was grey hawk as default setting for 3.5 which felt really bland I really didnt like the gods as they were presented in phb at all really. I think unless the setting has something to set it apart it will not get made. there has to be some hook or something that makes the setting unique to warrant a new book.
Go Gamma World!
The most hilarious part of this discussion is that we've taken a joke suggestion and pointed out all the ways that it's at least as good a guess for the 2010 setting as Dark Sun and Dragonlance are.
Go Gamma World!
I still think its going to be darksun given the new novels that they have an edditior for.
I still think its going to be darksun given the new novels that they have an edditior for.
Gamma World probably killed Dark Sun and took its stuff. :p
ALSO. Divine Power mentions that the Raven Queen was originally a sorcerer-queen. I read too much into stuff, usually.
Gamma World probably killed Dark Sun and took its stuff. :p
LOL!! Gamma World probably killed its self and resurrected as Dark Sun!!
Mutation!! Half-Giant creation was lost, so maybe they were just a mutation... and the elves being so tall... that sounds like one too... halfling = survivor
I think another thing worth mentioning when discussing the likelihood of the Dark Sun setting making a return in 2010 is the current popularity of Fallout as a result of 3 and thus the idea of a post-apocalyptic setting thanks to the people at Bethesda.
Whether or not you like Fallout 3, it did give the series mainstream popularity and was a pretty huge success, and from what I understand Dark Sun has a pretty similar vibe.
I'd have preferred Fallout remain away from the main stream if it meant we never received the piece of crap that was Fallout 3. I rank Fallout 3 among Brotherhood of Steel.
I'd have preferred Fallout remain away from the main stream if it meant we never received the piece of crap that was Fallout 3. I rank Fallout 3 among Brotherhood of Steel.
Right now, playing the game, the only thing I don't like is having to log into Windows Live for the "Update" to patch the darn thing.
After I go through the first time, I am gonna play it within Windows live to see what I can do for the evil side of things.
this is relevant.
Except that doesn't apply to my hatred of Fallout 3.
Fallout 3 sucks because not only did they take the game in a TOTALLY different direction, but they did that in addition to not following the heart of what made Fallout what it was.
For instance, going from turn based into real time. Now Bethsoft claims that the reason they did this is because turn based is just so old tech and that had Black Isle had the ability to, they also would have made the original Fallout games in real time first person. Of course it's worth pointing out that the Black Isle devs did indeed have the option to make the game first person real time, they deemed that it wouldn't fit with the feel they were going for. See, Fallout was meant to almost feel like you were playing a PnP game like DnD.
Additionally the writing for the game was terrible while Fallout and Fallout 2 had brilliant writing. Also Fallout 3, it was almost totally lacking in the humor department while Fallout 1 and 2 had tons of easter eggs to find and just tons of little fun things spread throughout the game.
Then there is the matter of the size of the world. In Fallout 1 and 2 you had a real sense of how civilisation was spread out and sparse. Fallout 3, not so much. You would get attacked by bandits and animals often enough that you just didn't feel that isolated and alone. In Fallout 1 and 2 I could sometimes travel half way across the State without seeing a single encounter and when I did get an encounter it would be something like a pack of rad scorpions.
Essentially, Fallout 3 should never have been called Fallout 3. It's not a true sequel in any sense of the word. If anything they should have called it "TES: Post-Apoc" or if they HAD to call it Fallout then "Fallout: Something".
Really, they could have made that game without using the Fallout license. Maybe had Bethsoft not gotten the license then Troika potentially would have that maybe that could have saved Troika from going under, and they would have done the game justice.
*A lot of things I agree with*
These opinions, I agree with them.
now what this thread is for is Dark Sun, I wouldn't mind seeing a Dark Sun Mod for Fallout 3, I wonder if the Oblivion tool set is Compatible with the Fallout one? Then we could really get a nice Dark Sun game... if only it could be multiplayer, wait thats what Bethesda is working on... they had an ok game in Battlespire, albeit still kinda like Arena meets Daggerfall... but they had Multiplayer!!
now where were we before this tangent??
oh yeah, something about Gamma World and Dark Sun...
now if they rebooted Dark Sun, would Tyr still be a major City? there would be less Dragon-Kings/Queens... more forestation with less Defilers, or Defiling magic just starting... reworking spells would be interesting... since DS had 10th level spells!!!
New Feats, Powers, Classes, Races, Deities/Primordials... new power sources??(Elemental??)
Such a Harsh environment, starting characters at level 3... hmm... lots of things to convert... and they still have how many power source books to put out?(Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal,and Psion all listed in the CB so far)
oops, looks like I went on a rant!!
one of my faves being the teddy bear trapped in the shopping trolleys, free it, it waves at you, and then....
or the hilarious building when you enter, that sets of a Mission Impossible trap...
Nuka Kola Quantum, makes your pee glow, "but the FDA would never let anything dangerous get on the market!"
etc etc
oh and you can use stealth and brains much better in FO3. Gotta love luring enemies into mines or slipping a grenade in their pockets while invisible
Fallout 3 is in many peoples opinions, including mine, of the best games EVER made!
OMG!!! don't bash Bethesda for making what was a decent conversion to an RTFPS from an incredibly slow and unintuitive turn based rpg. I have every game that has fallout in the name, even that god forsaken one on the XBOX!!
Please, I've been bashing them since Morrowind came out which was pretty much a more pretty but in many ways a significant downgrade from Daggerfall. Anyways, it wasn't a decent conversion, it was something that never needed to be done. Also, turn based may not be your cup of tea, but it's not slow and unintuitive. Hell, they could easily have just made the enemies turns take place at the same time and suddenly combat would have sped up significantly in Fallout 1 and 2. that's the sort of change you would expect in a game like Fallout 3, not a total genre change.
now what this thread is for is Dark Sun, I wouldn't mind seeing a Dark Sun Mod for Fallout 3, I wonder if the Oblivion tool set is Compatible with the Fallout one?
Eh, wouldn't really work. Fallout 3 uses it's own bastardized version of S.P.E.C.I.A.L. and it's not overly compatible with DnD rules. You could do it in fluff alone, but it'd be a major undertaking.
Then we could really get a nice Dark Sun game... if only it could be multiplayer, wait thats what Bethesda is working on... they had an ok game in Battlespire, albeit still kinda like Arena meets Daggerfall... but they had Multiplayer!!
I've heard nothing of Bethsoft working towards adding multi-player to TES or Fallout. I do know that Interplay is working on a Fallout MMO, but I really hope that never sees the light of day.
Oh and we also have an awesome Dark Sun game. It's called Dark Sun: Shattered Lands. Though it's turn based, so you personally may find it clunky and slow.
Please, I've been bashing them since Morrowind came out which was pretty much a more pretty but in many ways a significant downgrade from Daggerfall. Anyways, it wasn't a decent conversion, it was something that never needed to be done. Also, turn based may not be your cup of tea, but it's not slow and unintuitive. Hell, they could easily have just made the enemies turns take place at the same time and suddenly combat would have sped up significantly in Fallout 1 and 2. that's the sort of change you would expect in a game like Fallout 3, not a total genre change.
Most people I know like fallout 3 Ive never played any of them so cant say for sure but it seems like a good game.
and we also have an awesome Dark Sun game. It's called Dark Sun: Shattered Lands. Though it's turn based, so you personally may find it clunky and slow.
Its also really old and runs on Dos if I rember right. Was fun but a pain in the arse some of the battles were really hard was also based on the 2e rule set which just made it more difficult. If Darksun is the new setting Id like to see a new video or computer game.
Most people I know like fallout 3 Ive never played any of them so cant say for sure but it seems like a good game.
Ya well you probably don't want my opinion on what most people think relating to the game industry. Because of the mainstream gamer many terrible things have happened to games. Something that I'll be mentioning in my response to your other paragraph is one of these terrible things!
Its also really old and runs on Dos if I rember right. Was fun but a pain in the arse some of the battles were really hard was also based on the 2e rule set which just made it more difficult. If Darksun is the new setting Id like to see a new video or computer game.
It was indeed the old DOS game, of course it being old doesn't change how fun it is. Also yes it worked on a modified 2e, however I don't see how that really is all that important, after all that was pretty much only background processes, nothing you had to personally deal with.
Now then you said that the games were really hard, here's what I was mentioning before! The game WASN'T hard, it was actually fairly par for the course. It's just compared to games of today that it's hard. Games today have been made far too easy. There's no difficulty in beating most games now and that saddens me.
Ya well you probably don't want my opinion on what most people think relating to the game industry. Because of the mainstream gamer many terrible things have happened to games. Something that I'll be mentioning in my response to your other paragraph is one of these terrible things!
It was indeed the old DOS game, of course it being old doesn't change how fun it is. Also yes it worked on a modified 2e, however I don't see how that really is all that important, after all that was pretty much only background processes, nothing you had to personally deal with.
Now then you said that the games were really hard, here's what I was mentioning before! The game WASN'T hard, it was actually fairly par for the course. It's just compared to games of today that it's hard. Games today have been made far too easy. There's no difficulty in beating most games now and that saddens me.
Uh no its just it took way too long to beat some of the battles were almost impossible unless you did a lot of level grinding first. Games have to become mainstream if they want to make money.
i bought all the TSR computer games back in the day, that deluxe pack with all of them!!... could never get them to run on Windows 95 or 98, but i have been able to play them on XP... and boy do they need a serious upgrade, reminds me of why i jumped ship to consoles, then came back to computers and finally settled on both!
but given time, someone can make a decent mod(all bethesda games work together) I even made one for Dungeon Siege... took me almost a year of doing it all alone though.
Please, I've been bashing them since Morrowind came out which was pretty much a more pretty but in many ways a significant downgrade from Daggerfall. QUOTE]
Good to know the game that got me into RPGS, fantasy games in general, that I have likely put, oh, a half of year or more in playtime in to over the past 7 years, is a horrible game.
PS: I'm on break from playing Morrowind right now.
Good to know the game that got me into RPGS, fantasy games in general, that I have likely put, oh, a half of year or more in playtime in to over the past 7 years, is a horrible game.
PS: I'm on break from playing Morrowind right now.
Well, thems the breaks.
You would probably enjoy Daggerfall. It's like Morrowind+. It's just not as pretty and the dungeons are randomly generated (which isn't terrible to be honest).
It's nowhere near as linear as Morrowind. It's far more open ended. Also enemies don't level adjust to you. Additionally the world is FAR larger and you have way more options in the creation of your character.
You would probably enjoy Daggerfall. It's like Morrowind+. It's just not as pretty and the dungeons are randomly generated (which isn't terrible to be honest).
It's nowhere near as linear as Morrowind. It's far more open ended. Also enemies don't level adjust to you. Additionally the world is FAR larger and you have way more options in the creation of your character.
Yeah and you can make fly spells, teleport spells, climb walls, become a vampire, become a werewolf, werebear, wearboar, and a wererat!! creating your custom class you can do just about anything!! its what started Everquest!! and Asherons Call...
Seriously, Morrowind was a disappointment when you compare it to Daggerfall. It had less options and was just all around more of a meh game. Daggerfall was just brilliant though. It had it's problems, but that's what sequels are supposed to do, take the first game and improve on it's concept. Morrowind utterly failed in doing that.
loved the red armour/weapons
morrowind was dark dull and boring
And Fallout 3 is one of the best games I have ever played period. I liked it a good deal more than Fallout 1 or 2. And it totally still felt like Fallout.
There's no thing such as Fallout 3.
Fallout is FO1 and FO2. FO3 is another game, Oblivion with guns.
Ultima Underworld 2 rocks.
this is relevant.
I assume you have never played Fallout 1 and 2.
Fallout 3 is in many peoples opinions, including mine, of the best games EVER made!
Compared to the original Fallouts is like a boring FPS with a few options.
And Fallout 3 is one of the best games I have ever played period. I liked it a good deal more than Fallout 1 or 2. And it totally still felt like Fallout.
lol
I've been a fan of Fallout since '98. It's one of my favorite series. You know what? Fallout 3 is a good Fallout game. All the complaints about it not being Fallout are whiny nonsense. So it's FPS. So what? It's hardly the first rpg game to have it's engine drastically changed. It won't be the last. And sometimes, that's a good thing.
I wasn't going to get into this, but ...
I've been a fan of Fallout since '98. It's one of my favorite series. You know what? Fallout 3 is a good Fallout game. All the complaints about it not being Fallout are whiny nonsense. So it's FPS. So what? It's hardly the first rpg game to have it's engine drastically changed. It won't be the last. And sometimes, that's a good thing.
Amen, and bold on the whiny nonsense part.
I wasn't going to get into this, but ...
I've been a fan of Fallout since '98. It's one of my favorite series. You know what? Fallout 3 is a good Fallout game. All the complaints about it not being Fallout are whiny nonsense. So it's FPS. So what? It's hardly the first rpg game to have it's engine drastically changed. It won't be the last. And sometimes, that's a good thing.
Even though I havent played any of them Im going to QFT this because I think its very pertinent. Changing something is not always bad.
FO1 - Was interesting for its time but is a slow and dull game now.
FO2 - Sucked hard. The story was interesting, the gameplay was ok and the weapons and armor were cool. What killed this game completely for me was the time limit. If you took your time, doing every quest and level grinding, you would get a message saying your village has died and you took to long.
FAIL!
Morrowind - was a good game for its time, lots of options. Kept me addicted for about six months. Can't even look at it now without falling asleep.
Oblivion - Decent graphics, very short campaign, repetitive quests, boring loot. Bought this game and beat the campaign in two days, can't seem to play it anymore without falling asleep.
Back on topic. I look forward to the abomination that will be 4e darksun with all the horrible changes and exclusion of some of the original ideas that made DS so cool. No large half giants, no muls, no defilers, No gray, no black, no defiler dragons. (playable classes and races and transformations) Those things were vital to what made DS original. Gladiator is not a paragon path, its a core class (heroic) as a zero level character is born into slavery and is thrown into the arena without any training in any field and becomes a gladiator.
This is why myself and my player groups now look at it like this. We can either play dungeons and dragons darksun (2e or 3e conversions) or play 4th edition darksun. Completely different games. When my player's want to play some table top combat with mini's, we will play 4e. When we want to play an rpg, its 2e or 3.5.
A few of our other DM's purchased 4th edition and after reading the core books and running a few games decided it was not what they were looking for. They wanted to play dungeons and dragons the game, which 4e is not.
I enjoy 4e more than them, but much less than others. I won't go as far as to call people "brand name fanboys", but 4e is not for everyone. Especially a lot of the older gamers who loved 2e. 3e was a passable edition for some but 4e is so different and restrictive that its nothing like its forebearers.
Back on topic. I look forward to the abomination that will be 4e darksun with all the horrible changes and exclusion of some of the original ideas that made DS so cool. No large half giants, no muls, no defilers, No gray, no black, no defiler dragons. (playable classes and races and transformations) Those things were vital to what made DS original. Gladiator is not a paragon path, its a core class (heroic) as a zero level character is born into slavery and is thrown into the arena without any training in any field and becomes a gladiator.
Say again? did they release something that I missed? or are you referring to this?
Back on topic. I look forward to the abomination that will be 4e darksun with all the horrible changes and exclusion of some of the original ideas that made DS so cool.
so you are sure worc can't save anything of the orginal???
No large half giants,
as PCs mostlikely...
no muls,
why? every campiang guide has new races...
no defilers, No gray, no black, no defiler dragons.
all can be in 4e...
(playable classes and races and transformations)
I bet there will be transformations as epic destinies...
Those things were vital to what made DS original.
really? I always felt the setting itself was more vital...
Gladiator is not a paragon path, its a core class (heroic) as a zero level character is born into slavery and is thrown into the arena without any training in any field and becomes a gladiator.
how about "any class can be a glasiator" but we have the master gladiator PP??
but still 2 threads!!
I can see transformations as epic destinies, thats true and highly probable. As for gladiator being a base class, It might be a DS exlusive in the campaign setting and a arena master as a paragon path.
Mul's might survive the conversion (I hope). Halfgiants... I don't know. Halfgiants were awesome because they were huge, super strong and gained double HP during creation. I'm extremely pessimistic because I'v not enjoyed the majority of 4e so far because of the lack of options and I can't focus as much of my time towards homebrewed changes as I'd like because I'm still invested in 3.5 and converting 2e settings into 3.5.
I will probably continue to naysay and preach the end of the world, but I'm honestly waiting to see what they do. Darksun was my first true love when it comes to D&D gaming and I'm horrified to see a 4e disaster.
There will be muls, i dont think there is any doubt about that. While there was some doubt about half-giants showing up as their own race due to earlier developers comments about them occupying the same design space as goliaths, i think the fact that both they and goliaths are both separately mentioned by name in the ECG lends strength to the idea that they will get their own write-up.
I'll keep my fingers crossed on both accounts.
for Celticmut
http://trinitypastor.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/broken_record.jpg
heres the link to your broken record!! I used it a few times today in the DotP Forum today!!
http://trinitypastor.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/broken_record.jpg
heres the link to your broken record!! I used it a few times today in the DotP Forum today!!
ahh... I can't wait any longer!!!for Celticmut
http://trinitypastor.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/broken_record.jpg
heres the link to your broken record!! I used it a few times today in the DotP Forum today!!
Yea. I am getting really sick of the waiting. I wish they would let us know what the setting for 2010 will be already!
Agreed
so yes, definitely dark sun in 2010. What you dark sun people think?
if the new seeker class is this: http://www.amazon.com/Seeker-Dark-Sun-Tribe-Trilogy/dp/1560767014/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249437016&sr=1-18
so yes, definitely dark sun in 2010. What you dark sun people think?
That's a book from waaaaaaaaay back in the day. The likelihood of there being in connection is the same as the chances of being hit by a meteor.
That's a book from waaaaaaaaay back in the day. The likelihood of there being in connection is the same as the chances of being hit by a meteor.
You're going to feel really bad when the news reports come in about DM_LENNY's untimely, meteor-related demise. :P
You're going to feel really bad when the news reports come in about DM_LENNY's untimely, meteor-related demise. :P
Actually, when I wrote that I was thinking of a story from a few months back about a kid getting hit in the hand by a meteor ...
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/06/boy-survives-being-struck-by-a-meteorite/
Actually, when I wrote that I was thinking of a story from a few months back about a kid getting hit in the hand by a meteor ...
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/06/boy-survives-being-struck-by-a-meteorite/
While I was thinking of that poor dog in Ancient Egypt that died from a meteor strike.
Fallout 3 is fun, it's intersting and creepy. It is, I think, thouroughly enjoyable. There is really no point in making turn based games at this point. I totally prefer the "sort of turn based" games such as Final Fantasy XII or Fallout 3.
RE: Dark Sun
Since I never played in that world, I really have no tie to it, but then again I'm not planning on using any of the D&D offical campaign worlds, per se. I own the Forgotten Realms Player's guid not for Forgotten Realms Play, but so people have all the Drow/Genasi/etc info at their fingertips. I'm planning on aquiring the Ebberon Player's Guide for that exact same purpose; races, classes, etc. So yeah. Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Planescape, or Scarytown. It really doesn't matter so much as whatever new classes and races we get.
I don't think Fallout 3 can be called Turn Based in any way. It's Real Time with Pause really.
I don't think he was saying it was turn based. He meant the earlier FOs. I think.
I don't think he was saying it was turn based. He meant the earlier FOs. I think.
Fallout 3 can only be considered "turn based" in the very loosest sense when V.A.T.S. is active. Similar to how you can really only think of Final Fantasy XII as "turn based" if you are constantly opening the menu to enter every command for every character.
I.E. they are only turn based in the effect that real time has (however briefly) stopped and different commands for your "turn" are being issued. That's why I used the sort of qualifier. They aren't real "turn based", they are examples of "sort of kinda turn based".
Then again, unless you had the original Baldur's Gate on the setting that paused after every action, Baldur's Gate wasn't turn based either. :D
For the record, I also believe Greyhawk could benefit from a reboot, and Dragonlance could use a reboot to the War of the Lance era (except both settings are pretty much playable 4e straight out of the book with the help of 2e and 3e maps, whereas Dark Sun isn't).
All of the supplemental material was good - The Path and the Way, City on the Silt Sea, etc. etc... But the novels really damaged the setting a lot, and I do think it would be best if they remained an artifice of 2e Dark Sun and didn't make the jump.
I grew up on Dragonlance and love the books, history, nuances and everything you find in a typical fantasy setting (and some that's not typical).
But, previous arguments aside... you want an atypical fantasy setting: Darksun is it. Those of us who love the setting as we played is from the first boxed set, should expect some serious changes in game mechanics as it's re-built for 4e. But as long as it comes out a desolate wasteland, populated by the desperate and oppressed, fed upon by tyranny and the maniacal... and where the masses are strive for freedom and single gulp of brackish water...
I'd love it.
But, previous arguments aside... you want an atypical fantasy setting: Darksun is it. Those of us who love the setting as we played is from the first boxed set, should expect some serious changes in game mechanics as it's re-built for 4e. But as long as it comes out a desolate wasteland, populated by the desperate and oppressed, fed upon by tyranny and the maniacal... and where the masses are strive for freedom and single gulp of brackish water...
I'd love it.
Thats awesome!! you nailed the elements that took me a few paragraphs in one!!!
Thats awesome!! you nailed the elements that took me a few paragraphs in one!!!
Thanks!
After reading some of the DL arguments, I'm leaning towards DS than DL. No specific arguments, just my sense of intuition is drawing me more to DS... but that could just be irrational hope than any kind of intelligent consideration.
Here's a tip of the hat to everyone else hoping for DS.
However, given that Darksun was not poured over tirelessly like FR, I would like to see it largely untouched. That means.. whole races extinct (gnomes and orcs come to mind).. defiler/preserver magic (I want the preservers punished.. the defilers rewarded.. just like old DS).. and I want my Thri-Kreen.
I want the world to remain faithful to its roots (again, because the original wasn't explored enough to need "new")... and let all the DMs who run it massacre it by adding all the races just to appease themselves. Yes, I can "extinct" the races in the same fashion.. but I'd love to see the books stay "Darksun" not.. "4th Edition Gratification Dark Sun"
People always talk about "new" and "innovative".. then when it's something they don't like it's "restrictive" and "stupid" and "unfun".
If Darksun remains more violent and "R" rated than the other worlds.. then I'll be happy. If it's 4th Edition in the desert... I'll ignore it like I did Eberron and FR thanks.
It isn't Dragonlance.
Cheers,
Cam
Just thought I'd throw that on the fire and see what pops.
D&D: Coming Out Soon
I can’t say much about what I’m working on right now here in the office, other than to say it’s super-duper double-awesome, and it represents a welcome homecoming of sorts for me (...)
M. Baker worked on Dark Sun as a lead designer in 1991 ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
M. Baker worked on Dark Sun as a lead designer in 1991 ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now I'm SUPER excited.
Edit: He's also worked on Gamma World, Dark Sun, Birthright, Oriental Adventures, Planescape, Greyhawk...
From M. Rich Baker WotC staff blog :
M. Baker worked on Dark Sun as a lead designer in 1991 ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database the first product he worked on was Valley of Dust and Fire for Dark Sun in 1992(and he is the only designer credited). His product was Unsung Heroes for Dragonlance, although there are about 20 designers on that one(ironically it is 30 pages shorter then the one Rich did by himself). Next was Rock of Bral for Spelljammers which once again had him as the only designer. Finishing up 1992 was the 4th edition of Gamma World, although he was only a contibuter and not a designer. Overall his setting stats(minus FR) are as follows:
Star*Drive(???)- 7 books, at least 1 Dragon article, 1 fiction book, and 1 short story
Dark Sun- 6 books and at least 1 Dragon article
Planescape- 3 books
Alternity- 3 books
Dragonlance- 2 books
Spelljammer- 2 books
Ravenloft- 1 book
Mystara- 1 book
Birthright- 1 book
Oriental Adventures- 1 book
Clearly the setting is going to Star*Drive. *nods*
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database the first product he worked on was Valley of Dust and Fire for Dark Sun in 1992(and he is the only designer credited). His product was Unsung Heroes for Dragonlance, although there are about 20 designers on that one(ironically it is 30 pages shorter then the one Rich did by himself). Next was Rock of Bral for Spelljammers which once again had him as the only designer. Finishing up 1992 was the 4th edition of Gamma World, although he was only a contibuter and not a designer. Overall his setting stats(minus FR) are as follows:
Star*Drive(???)- 7 books, at least 1 Dragon article, 1 fiction book, and 1 short story
Dark Sun- 6 books and at least 1 Dragon article
Planescape- 3 books
Alternity- 3 books
Dragonlance- 2 books
Spelljammer- 2 books
Ravenloft- 1 book
Mystara- 1 book
Birthright- 1 book
Oriental Adventures- 1 book
Clearly the setting is going to Star*Drive. *nods*
There is an "A" and a "S"...
Which could be interpreted so many ways it's not funny.
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database
The Dark Sun CS First edition doesn't appear in the list. It was in 1991 I think, and M. Baker was the lead designer, with his name on the cover.
I'm Wrong ? That's nearly 20 years !
The Dark Sun CS First edition doesn't appear in the list. It was in 1991 I think, and M. Baker was the lead designer, with his name on the cover.
I'm Wrong ? That's nearly 20 years !
Looks like Ghost Stepper beat me to listing the CS developers, but when I was trying to find that I came accross a DS book(The Will and the Way: Psionicists of Athas) written by Rich that wasn't listed on the database, bringing his DS total up to 7 books.
I think the post by Cam pretty much clinched it for Dark Sun in my mind, and the comment by Rich just reinforces that.
This just in from EN World:
Regarding Dragonlance, you know what's most important and significant and personally meaningful to me is that this is the 25th anniversary of the setting. This year, with the release of Dragons of an Hourglass Mage, and the last few books in a collection of trilogies coming in, this year's the big silver.
They could shock everybody and release a Dragonlance sourcebook next year, and an adventure, and a campaign guide. But it's so not my concern at the moment. I mean, can't we celebrate what it is and was and could be this year, and not take all of the celebrations as hints as to a 3-book product line the year AFTER its anniversary?
Cheers,
Cam
That pretty much unclinches it.
Does anyone know which day they're going to announce the new campaign setting at Gen Con?
So I'm looking forward to seeing the twists 4e ds takes. Even if its a new spin on the old setting, I'm a bit more willing now. I mean after all, I still have 2e to play with.
So I'm looking forward to seeing the twists 4e ds takes. Even if its a new spin on the old setting, I'm a bit more willing now. I mean after all, I still have 2e to play with.
There we go!!! keep up the positive thoughts... its like karma...
although I do wish they would show the next few settings release dates, then we could be ready before it comes out... that way all the Mystara people wont be so disappointed when it doesn't come out...
me, I just want them to minimize the amounts of books they are putting out... I mean, couldn't they just have waited a little longer to release 4e... then they could have put both PHB into 1 book!! or all 3 MM into 1... now DMG, those they could do up to like 10 and I would be fine with... too bad they couldnt do them like the Starwars revised book... players guide, DM's guide, and monsters manual all in 1 book!!
well enough ranting, !!! Come on Dark Sun
Well it looks like more and more that its more likely dark sun, which I hope it is. as much as I like dragon lance there would be too many problems with converting it. Though I will say this I'd laugh it was stardrive....and be completely ok with it. I mean if I didn't get my dark Sun at least we'd get a science fantasy setting
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
yeah, I have a 250 mile radius that I will travel.. and if I had no dependants... I would fly out again!!
cross your fingers and rub your dice...
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
its friday that they are announcing the setting? I thought it was saterday...
GenCon Here We Come!
We’ll be flying out to Gen Con in a couple of weeks, and we can’t wait to meet up with all of you while we’re there. We’ve got a full slate of seminars on tap, as well as demos, RPGA events, and other surprises and activities throughout the Best Four Days in Gaming. During the show, I’m going to be revealing a number of secrets, which will then appear here as news items for any D&D Insiders that aren’t at the show. For example, I’m going to reveal that our next campaign setting, following on the heels of Forgotten Realms and Eberron, is going to be (blank) . Then, I might just talk about a special D&D (blank) that Mike Mearls and I are designing for release next year. Should I also talk about (blank), (blank), and (blank) of (blank)? I guess it depends on what kind of mood I’m in during the seminars. We’ll see …
man... thats a lot of blanks...
its friday that they are announcing the setting? I thought it was saterday...
Logan Bonner, a WotC designer, stated it would be Friday during the D&D 4e Extravaganza. There is a second Extravaganza on Saturday, but it sounds like it is pretty much a repeat of Friday.
I just hit up the main wizards D&D page and nearly died inside seeing "Weis & Hickman" thinking it was officially official.
Who else is going nuts?
OK, maybe alittle nuts.:P
I'm rooting for dark sun and going nuts with anticipation. i would be equally excited for something new however.
I just hit up the main wizards D&D page and nearly died inside seeing "Weis & Hickman" thinking it was officially official.
Who else is going nuts?
Going nuts? I've worked in retail for 12 years, sanity has long since gone bye bye....but yes I really really hope its darksun. Hell I'll settle for any old setting that hasn't seen a book since 2nd edition.
I mean oops.:P
I believe it was he who on the panel of designers last year stated he would like to see Dark Sun but more like Barsoom. Some may not like that but personally I think a gritty Barsoom-like Dark Sun would be awesome! It already has some similarities-Thri kreen for the green martians, Psionics although psionics in Dark Sun is much more in your face and pervasive, both are dying planets.
Sweet!
:bounce: 
That is all, carry on.:D
Seriously, this ROCKS.
I like this, rather a lot!! ;)
I'm currently DMing 4th ed Dark Sun as is, using house rules, so, me is happy!! :D :D :D :D :D
M. Baker worked on Dark Sun as a lead designer in 1991 ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now I'm SUPER excited.
Edit: He's also worked on Gamma World, Dark Sun, Birthright, Oriental Adventures, Planescape, Greyhawk...
From M. Rich Baker WotC staff blog :
M. Baker worked on Dark Sun as a lead designer in 1991 ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database the first product he worked on was Valley of Dust and Fire for Dark Sun in 1992(and he is the only designer credited). His product was Unsung Heroes for Dragonlance, although there are about 20 designers on that one(ironically it is 30 pages shorter then the one Rich did by himself). Next was Rock of Bral for Spelljammers which once again had him as the only designer. Finishing up 1992 was the 4th edition of Gamma World, although he was only a contibuter and not a designer. Overall his setting stats(minus FR) are as follows:
Star*Drive(???)- 7 books, at least 1 Dragon article, 1 fiction book, and 1 short story
Dark Sun- 6 books and at least 1 Dragon article
Planescape- 3 books
Alternity- 3 books
Dragonlance- 2 books
Spelljammer- 2 books
Ravenloft- 1 book
Mystara- 1 book
Birthright- 1 book
Oriental Adventures- 1 book
Clearly the setting is going to Star*Drive. *nods*
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database the first product he worked on was Valley of Dust and Fire for Dark Sun in 1992(and he is the only designer credited). His product was Unsung Heroes for Dragonlance, although there are about 20 designers on that one(ironically it is 30 pages shorter then the one Rich did by himself). Next was Rock of Bral for Spelljammers which once again had him as the only designer. Finishing up 1992 was the 4th edition of Gamma World, although he was only a contibuter and not a designer. Overall his setting stats(minus FR) are as follows:
Star*Drive(???)- 7 books, at least 1 Dragon article, 1 fiction book, and 1 short story
Dark Sun- 6 books and at least 1 Dragon article
Planescape- 3 books
Alternity- 3 books
Dragonlance- 2 books
Spelljammer- 2 books
Ravenloft- 1 book
Mystara- 1 book
Birthright- 1 book
Oriental Adventures- 1 book
Clearly the setting is going to Star*Drive. *nods*
There is an "A" and a "S"...
Which could be interpreted so many ways it's not funny.
According to Pen & Paper RPG Database
The Dark Sun CS First edition doesn't appear in the list. It was in 1991 I think, and M. Baker was the lead designer, with his name on the cover.
I'm Wrong ? That's nearly 20 years !
The Dark Sun CS First edition doesn't appear in the list. It was in 1991 I think, and M. Baker was the lead designer, with his name on the cover.
I'm Wrong ? That's nearly 20 years !
Looks like Ghost Stepper beat me to listing the CS developers, but when I was trying to find that I came accross a DS book(The Will and the Way: Psionicists of Athas) written by Rich that wasn't listed on the database, bringing his DS total up to 7 books.
I think the post by Cam pretty much clinched it for Dark Sun in my mind, and the comment by Rich just reinforces that.
This just in from EN World:
Regarding Dragonlance, you know what's most important and significant and personally meaningful to me is that this is the 25th anniversary of the setting. This year, with the release of Dragons of an Hourglass Mage, and the last few books in a collection of trilogies coming in, this year's the big silver.
They could shock everybody and release a Dragonlance sourcebook next year, and an adventure, and a campaign guide. But it's so not my concern at the moment. I mean, can't we celebrate what it is and was and could be this year, and not take all of the celebrations as hints as to a 3-book product line the year AFTER its anniversary?
Cheers,
Cam
That pretty much unclinches it.
Does anyone know which day they're going to announce the new campaign setting at Gen Con?
So I'm looking forward to seeing the twists 4e ds takes. Even if its a new spin on the old setting, I'm a bit more willing now. I mean after all, I still have 2e to play with.
So I'm looking forward to seeing the twists 4e ds takes. Even if its a new spin on the old setting, I'm a bit more willing now. I mean after all, I still have 2e to play with.
There we go!!! keep up the positive thoughts... its like karma...
although I do wish they would show the next few settings release dates, then we could be ready before it comes out... that way all the Mystara people wont be so disappointed when it doesn't come out...
me, I just want them to minimize the amounts of books they are putting out... I mean, couldn't they just have waited a little longer to release 4e... then they could have put both PHB into 1 book!! or all 3 MM into 1... now DMG, those they could do up to like 10 and I would be fine with... too bad they couldnt do them like the Starwars revised book... players guide, DM's guide, and monsters manual all in 1 book!!
well enough ranting, !!! Come on Dark Sun
Well it looks like more and more that its more likely dark sun, which I hope it is. as much as I like dragon lance there would be too many problems with converting it. Though I will say this I'd laugh it was stardrive....and be completely ok with it. I mean if I didn't get my dark Sun at least we'd get a science fantasy setting
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
yeah, I have a 250 mile radius that I will travel.. and if I had no dependants... I would fly out again!!
cross your fingers and rub your dice...
Well, we will find out for sure on Friday afternoon. Hopefully WotC will update the Ampersand article pretty quickly after the news breaks, since a lot of us won't be there.
its friday that they are announcing the setting? I thought it was saterday...
GenCon Here We Come!
We’ll be flying out to Gen Con in a couple of weeks, and we can’t wait to meet up with all of you while we’re there. We’ve got a full slate of seminars on tap, as well as demos, RPGA events, and other surprises and activities throughout the Best Four Days in Gaming. During the show, I’m going to be revealing a number of secrets, which will then appear here as news items for any D&D Insiders that aren’t at the show. For example, I’m going to reveal that our next campaign setting, following on the heels of Forgotten Realms and Eberron, is going to be (blank) . Then, I might just talk about a special D&D (blank) that Mike Mearls and I are designing for release next year. Should I also talk about (blank), (blank), and (blank) of (blank)? I guess it depends on what kind of mood I’m in during the seminars. We’ll see …
man... thats a lot of blanks...
its friday that they are announcing the setting? I thought it was saterday...
Logan Bonner, a WotC designer, stated it would be Friday during the D&D 4e Extravaganza. There is a second Extravaganza on Saturday, but it sounds like it is pretty much a repeat of Friday.
I just hit up the main wizards D&D page and nearly died inside seeing "Weis & Hickman" thinking it was officially official.
Who else is going nuts?
OK, maybe alittle nuts.:P
I'm rooting for dark sun and going nuts with anticipation. i would be equally excited for something new however.
I just hit up the main wizards D&D page and nearly died inside seeing "Weis & Hickman" thinking it was officially official.
Who else is going nuts?
Going nuts? I've worked in retail for 12 years, sanity has long since gone bye bye....but yes I really really hope its darksun. Hell I'll settle for any old setting that hasn't seen a book since 2nd edition.
I mean oops.:P
I believe it was he who on the panel of designers last year stated he would like to see Dark Sun but more like Barsoom. Some may not like that but personally I think a gritty Barsoom-like Dark Sun would be awesome! It already has some similarities-Thri kreen for the green martians, Psionics although psionics in Dark Sun is much more in your face and pervasive, both are dying planets.
Sweet!
:bounce: That is all, carry on.:D
Seriously, this ROCKS.
I like this, rather a lot!! ;)
I'm currently DMing 4th ed Dark Sun as is, using house rules, so, me is happy!! :D :D :D :D :D