Sure we all knew the Campaign and Player's Guide were coming. But you can't have Dark Sun without its monsters! The Ankheg and Kank from MM2 were a nice start, but you can hardly build a campaign around them.
So what monsters are people looking forward to the most? I'm really looking forward to seeing Anakore return, as they just scare the **** out of me. But I also miss scrab. Scrab are a great low level monster. And while my players will most likely have levelled way past them by the time book comes out, I'll find a way to work them into the campaign somehow. Even if they're just an exotic cuisine 
Surprisingly I can "refluff" quite a few monsters into athasian beasts of horror.
Hmmm, it seems that instead of a Dark Sun Player's Guide and Campaign Guide, we are getting a Dark Sun Campaign Setting and Dark Sun Creature Catalog. That is an interesting turn of events.
Dark Sun does not interest me, so I don't have any favorite creatures.
EDIT: I just noticed that the Creature Catalog has the art that was originally to be the cover of the Campaign Setting and the Campaign Setting has all new art.
Hmmm, it seems that instead of a Dark Sun Player's Guide and Campaign Guide, we are getting a Dark Sun Campaign Setting and Dark Sun Creature Catalog.
what makes you think it is instead??? I think we are getting all3
I assume september is the players guide
Hmmm, it seems that instead of a Dark Sun Player's Guide and Campaign Guide, we are getting a Dark Sun Campaign Setting and Dark Sun Creature Catalog.
what makes you think it is instead??? I think we are getting all3
Reading the catalog does...
www.wizards.com/dnd/Catalog.aspx
The catalog clearly shows a Dark Sun Campaign Setting, Dark Sun Creature Catalog, and Marauders of the Dune Sea, complete with Item Codes and ISBN. Those are our three Dark Sun RPG products. Nowhere on the catalog does have a Dark Sun Player's Guide or a Dark Sun Campaign Guide. Honestly, it looks like compared to Eberron and Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun is getting the shaft. The blurb for the CS definitely implies that it is the combo of the PG/CG.
Here is the blurb
Dark Sun Campaign Setting D&D Supplement Richard Baker and Robert J. Schwalb
Explore a savage, wondrous world.
Aimed at players and Dungeon Masters, this game supplement explores the heroes and wonders of Athas-a savage desert world abandoned by the gods and ruled by terrible sorcerer-kings. Use it to build Dark Sun heroes and thrilling D&D adventures set in the Seven Cities of the Tyr Region, the Ivory Triangle, the Sea of Silt, and monster-infested wastelands-or plunder it for your own D&D campaign!
The Dark Sun Campaign Setting provides exciting character options for D&D players, including new races, new character themes and class builds, new paragon paths and epic destinies, and new equipment. It also provides everything Dungeon Masters need to run 4th Edition Dark Sun campaigns or include Dark Sun elements in their homebrew campaigns. It has rules and advice for handling survival challenges, arena encounters, desert terrain, and adventure creation. It also presents a short, ready-to-play introductory adventure.
You know, well done on Wizards of the Coast's part for changing the book make-up that way. This way, instead of players and DM buying a $30 book each and the DM being the only one buying the $40 book, the players and DM all buy a $40 book and the DM buys the $20 book. An average table has generally five players and a DM, in the original model it was 6*$30 + $40= $220, in the new model it is 6*$40 + $20 = $260. Well done, WotC, well done.
You know, well done on Wizards of the Coast's part for changing the book make-up that way. This way, instead of players and DM buying a book each and the DM being the only one buying the book, the players and DM all buy a book and the DM buys the book. An average table has generally five players and a DM, in the original model it was 6* + = 0, in the new model it is 6* + = 0. Well done, WotC, well done.
..................... Sharing is caring............... Just saying.
I'm more than a little worried about DM information being in a player's book. We've been seeing those lines blur for a bit now (since AV2), and the Dark Sun book seems to be the culmination of it (unless its a misleading summary and there will in fact be a separate book with either DM or PC info).
The Eberron Campaign Setting was a horrible book. It was the only book available for PCs to read and yet it was rife with DM-only info, making the entire book a spoiler-filled endeavour. If you're going to make an amazing secret that will totally throw the players for a surprise when you reveal it, don't put the damn information in a player's book!
Unfortunately the Dark Sun Campaign Setting seems to be a return to this format. Hopefully it'll be segregated into chapters at the very least so Players can safely read certain chapters. But I think its going to end up a gigantic mess.
I just noticed the Dark Sun Creature Catalog is a paperback. For a book that would theoretically be used a whole heckuva lot, you would think they would make it hardcover.
I totally agree that combining the PG and CG is a very bad idea. It was a bad idea in 3e/3.5e, what makes them think it is a good idea now? Not only that, WotC is charging for a book with 224 pages. They charged for the Eberron and Forgotten Realms CGs, and they had 288 pages.
Once again, I think Dark Sun is severely getting screwed this time around with only one hardback, a cheap softcover monster book, and a ridiculously small adventure (32 pages?!). The Eberron product suite is a total of 544 pages and costs for two hardbacks and one large adventure. Price per page is $0.17. The Dark Sun product suite is 400 pages and costs for one hardback, one paperback, and a small adventure. Price per page is $0.18. One would think that if the PPP was switched, that the extra penny per page would be offsetting the price to make the second book a hardback, but this is not the case.
Hopefully, this product scheme does not continue with future settings.
I totally agree that combining the PG and CG is a very bad idea. It was a bad idea in 3e/3.5e, what makes them think it is a good idea now? Not only that, WotC is charging for a book with 224 pages. They charged for the Eberron and Forgotten Realms CGs, and they had 288 pages.Hopefully, this product scheme does not continue with future settings.
This might be in part the result of no new class for Dark Sun. WotC may have been having a hard time filling the full page count for a Player's Guide. Another contributing factor might have been complaints about too much text being duplicated in between the Player's Guide and Setting Guides. This was as I recall a major complaint with Forgotten Realms that was at least partly echoed with Eberron as well.
Still I agree. Mixing PC and DM books is a bad idea. The segregation of such materials has for me been one of the stronger selling points of 4e. The change in the magazine formats (Dragon being full PC while Dungeon is now all DM stuff instead only adventures) seemed to indicate a strengthening of this stance, I don't like to see WotC backstepping for their campaign settings.
This might be in part the result of no new class for Dark Sun. WotC may have been having a hard time filling the full page count for a Player's Guide.
You can easily fill 159 pages with fluff that is appropriate for a player to have. Oh wait, I forgot. This is 4th ed.
I just noticed the Dark Sun Creature Catalog is a paperback
Oh wow.
I'm new to D&D, but an old hand at roleplaying (7 years now!). As such I am quickly beginning to see why everyone is so angry with WotC. I'm liking a lot of what they're doing. Simpler rules is something I enjoy (even Pathfinder has simplified 3.5e's rules so clearly the idea isn't a bad one. People simply disagree as to the length it should go to). I'm really enjoying how they're putting more fluff in books (I flipped through Primal Power and I got quite excited to see more pages devoted to fluff). The Vistani article was a terrific sign to show what WotC can produce if they wish to.
But then they turn around and make quite a few boneheaded mistakes. I'm starting to wonder if these paperback books are actually signalling something much more drastic.
Although from what I've heard, LFR is much more popular in my local area then LG ever was. So if that is a sign of how popular the game is, they should be going strong and should be producing better content. Not cutting back on costs and producing cheap paperbacks and melding an entire setting into one book when Eberron clearly demonstrated this did not work.
If WotC refuses to learn from its past mistakes, I really wonder how much of a future it could possibly have. Then again, perhaps its customers haven't been voting with their wallet and so WotC has no motivation to learn from their mistakes. If so I can only hope other publishers will gain enough of traction to remove WotC from their Microsoft-like monopoly status in the RPG community.
Maybe it's a box set.
It probably isn't but it's a thought.
Its all about the nightmare beast of athas. But I'd also like to see wandering defiler dragons, avangions, rampager beasts, sloths, tembo, the obsidian man, belgoi, kirrin and every other darksun monster I can squeeze outa wotc.
The idea of not getting a players guide for DS troubles me greatly. But I guess the campaign guide will be for both the players and the DM, so I hold onto hope that it won't suck.
I think wotc needs to stop pinching pennies and just release a "creature catalog" for each setting, and then turn around and give us darksun fans our damn players guide AND campaign guide AND adventure books.
I mean, we ARE the ones paying for the products! Give us what we want! Or atleast, what "I" want.
I'm new to D&D, but an old hand at roleplaying (7 years now!). As such I am quickly beginning to see why everyone is so angry with WotC.
Everyone = extremely vocal minority
Everyone = extremely vocal minority
Really? Most people are happy with everything WotC does? I think the people in THAT category is a vocal minority. I'm not saying everyone hates WotC and wants to burn them all alive, but you can be angry with some of WotC does, while still enjoy 4th ed. I'd say I'm in that category.
Not everybody is always happy with WotC, and not everybody is always upset at WotC. It's very rare when everybody does, or is, anything.
Really? Most people are happy with everything WotC does?
Because that's exactly what I said!
Oh wait ... that's not even close to what I said ...
I see it like this. It's not a players & masters book. It's a master only book, that's it. The master will then let the players read through races, feats and new mechanics at character creation, and that's it.
Thats pretty annoying, and the DM could possibly have the show them it every time they leveled up, if there's feats and paragon paths.
Then again, if most people use the Character Builder, this is a minor issue.
And even without the CharBuilder, the Compendium allows print-outs of race and class features, and powers, so that works too.
Because that's exactly what I said!Oh wait ... that's not even close to what I said ...
To be honest I don't know what you're trying to say then. You said "everyone" who is annoyed with WotC is a vocal minority. Therefore the only conclusion I can draw from this is the majority aren't annoyed with WotC does. Therefore if they're not annoyed, they must like everything WotC does.
However you say that isn't what you meant. So perhaps you could make it clearer for me please? 4 word posts aren't exactly the clearest way to express yourself.
And even without the CharBuilder, the Compendium allows print-outs of race and class features, and powers, so that works too.
You need so much more then the mechanics to make a character, that simply using the character builder would be ridiculous.
I thought I was pretty clear. I said the annoyed were a vocal minority. I never ever said, nor implied, that the majority loved everything. Most people are in the middle, and don't care enough to praise or whine. Not that hard to figure out.
To be honest I don't know what you're trying to say then. You said "everyone" who is annoyed with WotC is a vocal minority. Therefore the only conclusion I can draw from this is the majority aren't annoyed with WotC does. Therefore if they're not annoyed, they must like everything WotC does.
Fallacy of the excluded middle.
It's perfectly possible to be both generally happy with most of what WotC does, yet still not agree with every decision they make. I would even go so far as to say most of WotC's customers probably fit into this category somewhere.
Those who are "really angry with WotC" and those who are "completely happy with everything WotC does" are probably both very small minorities of the total customer base.
I see it like this. It's not a players & masters book. It's a master only book, that's it. The master will then let the players read through races, feats and new mechanics at character creation, and that's it.
This is why I buy my own books. No one tells me what I can't read. Well I mean they can, but I wouldn't listen.
On the positive side, those of us with 2e DS material will have so much to work with it won't be funny. All "we" need is 4e crunch, we've already got the fluff. I sorta feel bad for first time DS players new to the setting. Because they'll only be getting the tyr region and the original city-states while us old school DS nerds will be playing the Jagged Cliffs region and the Deadlands region along with the Last Sea.
But most of us will glady share info and the maps are not hard to find. 
I see it like this. It's not a players & masters book. It's a master only book, that's it. The master will then let the players read through races, feats and new mechanics at character creation, and that's it.
This is why I buy my own books. No one tells me what I can't read. Well I mean they can, but I wouldn't listen.
Same here.
You need so much more then the mechanics to make a character, that simply using the character builder would be ridiculous.
????
O.o(I still miss the old smileys.
)What else do you need beyond the mechanics and the fluff in the character builder? I think I can honestly say that I didn't bother to look at any of the source material at all when building my current character. He's turned out perfectly fine and interesting.
O.o(I still miss the old smileys.What else do you need beyond the mechanics and the fluff in the character builder? I think I can honestly say that I didn't bother to look at any of the source material at all when building my current character. He's turned out perfectly fine and interesting.
If you're playing in an established setting then you need:
- history that's generally known by most people.
- towns/cities and which one your character is from.
- customs of the town and city.
- How (if at all) the races differ from the standard assumptions (given we're talking about Dark Sun that's a fairly important part of the campaign).
- The general level of technology/magic of the region you live in.
- Common generally known information known about the other regions.
The only time you wouldn't need to know that from a book is if you play in a homebrew. In which case your DM has to put in some extra effort and actually produce that for you. Although in either case, you're using much more then the sparse information found in the character builder.
Back when I played in FR (last time I was really ever a player) I was playing with a bunch of FR buffs that could basically recite the entire history of the realms citing years. I played without knowledge of basically any FR fluff and I did just fine. In fact, I enjoyed it more when I knew less (now that I DM I need to know setting stuff) because I could assume (and my DM assumed as well) that my character knew these things, but it was still new and fun for me. I didn't have to know everything myself.
Take eberron for example. Those two books provide a great foundation, but without the 3.5 material, you'd miss out on TONS of content. Which is why the older fluff is still useful.
4e Darksun will be the same. They will give us the foundation to build on. DS fans, like myself, with all the 2nd edition DS material will be able to enjoy the entire world, we just need the basic 4e ds rules to run it.
4e DS is a clear sign of things to come. If/when they release a 4e dragonlance game, it will probably only be one book, since the 3.5 MWP game books are so well done, that all the fluff in those books are still useful.
Mystara and birthright might get the same treatment. It robs the newer fans of the "history" and knowledge of the older material, but us long time fans will be able to build upon whatever we get with no problems.
Although, I'm still a bit miffed about them resetting DS. They should have kept the progression, but I guess they want people to experience the dragon of tyr and the initial escape of Rajaat.
All in all, as long as the products I buy will still be quality, I don't care. I do REALLY hope that they segregate the PC and DM information into different chapters though.
Except the blurb on the new DS adventure has a Free Tyr with a Revolutionary Council... I hope the actual Campaign Setting book still has a Kalak-dominated Tyr...
The blurb seems to clearly state otherwise.
I would expect Athas to go through the usual "Points of Light/Cataclysm" process Faerun went. Athas was probably already a "Points of Dim Light" setting, so changes will be less explosive - free Tyr seems to actually hint at "taming" the setting.
Frankly, it's pretty clear that Free-Tyr was always meant to be the default. It's just that TSR decided to establish it in the very first adventure instead of the main setting book, which was a mistake.
I don't know if it was a mistake, if a DM only ever used the original box set, then how the city was handled was up to the DM. For those of us who were addicted to DS beyond the box set, Freedom became one of the historical adventures. Since a sorcerer king actually died.
I ran freedom seperately so my players could experience it, but ultimately, Tyr's change wasn't by the book IMG. I never seem to stick to canon, although I enjoy using it from time to time.
As a long time Dark Sun fan I am glad to see Dark Sun making a return and I actually like the fact that the Dark Sun Campaign Setting and Player's Guide has been reduced down to one book. I don't like the way 4th edition has been releasing campaign materials thus far where you had to wait for both the Player's Guide and the Campaign Guide to be released to start really running the campaign. In 3.0/3.5 and all previous editions in fact, the Player's Guides was just a supplement with additional info on the campaign settings but when you purchased the campaign guide you had everything in hand you needed to actually run and play in that setting. For example Eberron, which I believe was the first fully 3.5 edition campaign, released their campaign setting around June of 2004 and the Eberron Player's Guide didn't hit until early 2006. Why? Because the PG was optional and the Campaign setting was just that what you needed to run a campaign. Hence the term Campaign Setting. As it has been going thus far in 4e, which I do like better than 3.0/3.5, you have to wait one month for the PG and then wait another month for the CS before you can finally start a game. I think that has been a poor design model and evidently WOTC listened to the people who complained about this. While, I can respect the opinion of those who disagree. Respectfully, I think the way they are releasing Dark Sun, where the corebook is all you need to play in the setting, is a step in the right direction.
Peace,
Fallstorm
What do they do to fix this? Combine the 2 products so that everyone has to get the campaign book. The second book gets relegated to a smaller softcover to buffer the fact that it will sell less that the main book, and most likely they decided it should be a monster book because they found that monster manuals sell better than DM books like the DMG2 or the campaign guides.
Basically, they decided to cut what didn't sell (Campaign Guides) and smash that material into a book they know will sell.
For example Eberron, which I believe was the first fully 3.5 edition campaign, released their campaign setting around June of 2004 and the Eberron Player's Guide didn't hit until early 2006. Why? Because the PG was optional and the Campaign setting was just that what you needed to run a campaign. Hence the term Campaign Setting.
The problem with the 3.5 Eberron Campaign Guide was that it contained major setting spoilers (such as secret motives and identities of various NPCs and organizations). That in of it's self might not have been a problem except that such spoilers were not relegated to a special DM's only chapter, they were instead often inserted into the middle of paragraphs that were otherwise generic setting fluff. This was especially a problem given the noir style that Eberron promoted, as mysteries that should have been major plot twists could easily be spoiled by a casual read.
As it has been going thus far in 4e, which I do like better than 3.0/3.5, you have to wait one month for the PG and then wait another month for the CS before you can finally start a game.
Actually that was only an issue with Eberron. Forgotten Realms was instead released CS first and PG second. Reasons why that strategy were reversed are unknown.
Could be that were as the Realms received several major revisions for 4e, the Eberron setting remains largely as it was in 3e, which meant the basic fluff material already available to established setting fans was unchanged. As such, player options were prioritized to make the setting playable ASAP, knowing that DM's could reference the old 3e book for information and improvise any setting specific monsters.
I bet anything that WotC found that everyone bought the player's guides while hardly anyone bought the campaign guide, discovering that they were putting out 2 books for a setting but could really only move one of them reliably.
Basically, they decided to cut what didn't sell (Campaign Guides) and smash that material into a book they know will sell.
This seems to me the most likely reason for the changes to the Dark Sun release strategy. Though I do wish they could have expanded the monster book into a hardback release. Possibly by including traps, hazards, and maybe some sample encounters like, such as those fund in Open Grave or the Draconomicons. I don't terribly mind the rearranging of release strategy (though a repeat of the problems of 3.5 Eberron mentioned above concerns me), but my real complaint is that I dislike paperback RPG books. I find that they general can't handle the same wear and tear, also they look out of place on my gaming shelf.
This seems to me the most likely reason for the changes to the Dark Sun release strategy. Though I do wish they could have expanded the monster book into a hardback release. Possibly by including traps, hazards, and maybe some sample encounters like, such as those fund in Open Grave or the Draconomicons. I don't terribly mind the rearranging of release strategy (though a repeat of the problems of 3.5 Eberron mentioned above concerns me), but my real complaint is that I dislike paperback RPG books. I find that they general can't handle the same wear and tear, also they look out of place on my gaming shelf.
If its any consolation, the product description says the creature calatloge "contains other hazards and threats". I do wish it was a full-sized hardcover though.
If its any consolation, the product description says the creature calatloge "contains other hazards and threats". I do wish it was a full-sized hardcover though.
Well that's good to hear. Though having just read the product description I'm only left more disappointed that it isn't a hardback. The Creature Catalog appears to be only 16 pages short of the length of a power source book or campaign player's guide. True it's also $10 cheaper, but I'd rather pay the extra cash for a book that is both more durable and that better blends with rest of my collection. Other than that though I'm quite excited, as even with traps and hazards as well, 144 pages should allow for a lot more setting specific critters, which I felt were notably lacking in the previous two setting, especial Eberron.
Also just noticed that hardback campaign setting is shorter than the previous two campaign guides, which is also mildly disappointing.