I am writing this email (or posting) in response to the D&D Insider Additions and Changes to D&D Insider email which I received on May 19th. The email was to inform me of the availability to “extend or upgrade your current subscription to get the most value possible.”
I know that this will be a touch long winded, but let me explain where I’m coming from. My Name is Bret Crane, and I’ve been playing D&D since 1978. Now that gamers are currently in vogue, I guess there is no harm in me admitting that. I have bought multitudes of your products, and admittedly will most likely continue to purchase your various products in one form or another. I’ve bought your products, because over time I’ve come to the opinion that you strive to produce a high quality product, but the lack of information or misinformation since D&D 4th edition was released has got me questioning your integrity, and my loyalty.
I still play D&D. My wife, who has worked for Microsoft for 14 years, also plays D&D. The people we play D&D with also work with Microsoft and have played D&D for many years. We are bringing up our children to enjoy D&D, and have played D&D as a family. I mention this only because I want to be clear and shatter any stereotype that you may have about me being some mouth-breathing, non-deodorant wearing, living in my mother’s basement, working at a pizza place, kind of guy. I want to be clear that we are people with means that sink quite a bit of money into your products. I am a junior high school teacher, teaching computer technology classes to 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. I also run an after school games club where I promote your products (mainly D&D, and MtG). I have been supporting your company for a long time, and I am promoting your company to a new generation. In today’s culture there aren’t car companies with that kind of customer loyalty anymore. You are in a rare position, in that you are one of the few companies that can claim generational loyalty… the kind of thing you would expect to see 60 years ago. Besides beer and soda pop companies, you hold a unique position in customer loyalty.
Before D&D 4th edition was released, there was both skepticism and excitement about a new edition. Many felt that it was another endless update to merely cycle the product again and to generate new revenue with no real improvements. I didn’t really care about that. I was excited for the new edition, and it had nothing to do with any cosmetic or rules changes. I was excited with your plans to use technology to rewrite how players played D&D, and to bring the game into the 21st century. I envisioned in a very close date being able to use your D&D insider applications with something like Microsoft’s multi-touch table to create a whole new experience for me as a DM, and for my players. With the ability of no longer needing to mess with endless paper maps and figs or cardboard cut-out, it would be a breeze to run a game digitally. My friend and I could relax around a multi-touch table, with player moving their characters where they were wanting them to be with no confusion, and me being able plop in what I needed without having to make statements like, “okay, the Stone Giant is actually a Red Dragon and the Skittles are Kobolds, with different colors denoting…” And as for getting the game ready; I imagined the ability to copy and paste creatures, NPC’s, traps, and all kinds of statistic into a cohesive story outline with no longer needing the ability to flip through countess books to get the details on how to actually deal with that trap, or how that monster should respond to a fire attack. I would be able to merely have my laptop open and be able to run a game in an organized fashion, because all the vital information was laid out for me because I designed it that way without the need for endless typing or constant page turning.
Now I must admit that I’m not entirely clear on what was completely rumor, and what was completely company released information, but either way you did a poor job of clearing up bad information, and you also did a poor job of making good information clear. In the end I guess that is all that I’m asking. I’ll pay for continued rate hikes for D&D insider as long as I know what I’m really getting, and more importantly, what I will be getting and when! I feel a bit miffed at the idea that you are already starting a trend to raise the subscription whenever you add a new feature (or a proposed possible new feature), when you didn’t deliver on what you promised in the first place. Let me reiterate, I will pay for the privilege to have these tools; I just want you to be clear as to what it is leading up to and when. I thought the dungeon creator and digital game board was a given, but now it looks like it is completely scratched, or at least that is the impression I get with its removal from D&D Insider and your strong efforts to push cardboard maps and plastic minis. I thought we were going to have digital access to the books we bought so that we would be able to manipulate that content digitally. Now with the push of printed power cards and such, it seems like you're taking backwards steps.
If the D&D Insider just turns into a giant message board, or worse yet, merely an overinflated paid subscription to as advertising outlet, then I am greatly concerned. I think there are many of us who would like to know what you really have planned for the D&D Insider, and how you think it will change how RPG’s are played in the 21st century. Please make it clear to us who care, and have cared for a very long time.
Concerned and confused.
~Bret Crane
I am writing this email (or posting) in response to the D&D Insider Additions and Changes to D&D Insider email which I received on May 19th. The email was to inform me of the availability to “extend or upgrade your current subscription to get the most value possible.”
I know that this will be a touch long winded, but let me explain where I’m coming from. My Name is Bret Crane, and I’ve been playing D&D since 1978. Now that gamers are currently in vogue, I guess there is no harm in me admitting that. I have bought multitudes of your products, and admittedly will most likely continue to purchase your various products in one form or another. I’ve bought your products, because over time I’ve come to the opinion that you strive to produce a high quality product, but the lack of information or misinformation since D&D 4th edition was released has got me questioning your integrity, and my loyalty.
I still play D&D. My wife, who has worked for Microsoft for 14 years, also plays D&D. The people we play D&D with also work with Microsoft and have played D&D for many years. We are bringing up our children to enjoy D&D, and have played D&D as a family. I mention this only because I want to be clear and shatter any stereotype that you may have about me being some mouth-breathing, non-deodorant wearing, living in my mother’s basement, working at a pizza place, kind of guy. I want to be clear that we are people with means that sink quite a bit of money into your products. I am a junior high school teacher, teaching computer technology classes to 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. I also run an after school games club where I promote your products (mainly D&D, and MtG). I have been supporting your company for a long time, and I am promoting your company to a new generation. In today’s culture there aren’t car companies with that kind of customer loyalty anymore. You are in a rare position, in that you are one of the few companies that can claim generational loyalty… the kind of thing you would expect to see 60 years ago. Besides beer and soda pop companies, you hold a unique position in customer loyalty.
Before D&D 4th edition was released, there was both skepticism and excitement about a new edition. Many felt that it was another endless update to merely cycle the product again and to generate new revenue with no real improvements. I didn’t really care about that. I was excited for the new edition, and it had nothing to do with any cosmetic or rules changes. I was excited with your plans to use technology to rewrite how players played D&D, and to bring the game into the 21st century. I envisioned in a very close date being able to use your D&D insider applications with something like Microsoft’s multi-touch table to create a whole new experience for me as a DM, and for my players. With the ability of no longer needing to mess with endless paper maps and figs or cardboard cut-out, it would be a breeze to run a game digitally. My friend and I could relax around a multi-touch table, with player moving their characters where they were wanting them to be with no confusion, and me being able plop in what I needed without having to make statements like, “okay, the Stone Giant is actually a Red Dragon and the Skittles are Kobolds, with different colors denoting…” And as for getting the game ready; I imagined the ability to copy and paste creatures, NPC’s, traps, and all kinds of statistic into a cohesive story outline with no longer needing the ability to flip through countess books to get the details on how to actually deal with that trap, or how that monster should respond to a fire attack. I would be able to merely have my laptop open and be able to run a game in an organized fashion, because all the vital information was laid out for me because I designed it that way without the need for endless typing or constant page turning.
Now I must admit that I’m not entirely clear on what was completely rumor, and what was completely company released information, but either way you did a poor job of clearing up bad information, and you also did a poor job of making good information clear. In the end I guess that is all that I’m asking. I’ll pay for continued rate hikes for D&D insider as long as I know what I’m really getting, and more importantly, what I will be getting and when! I feel a bit miffed at the idea that you are already starting a trend to raise the subscription whenever you add a new feature (or a proposed possible new feature), when you didn’t deliver on what you promised in the first place. Let me reiterate, I will pay for the privilege to have these tools; I just want you to be clear as to what it is leading up to and when. I thought the dungeon creator and digital game board was a given, but now it looks like it is completely scratched, or at least that is the impression I get with its removal from D&D Insider and your strong efforts to push cardboard maps and plastic minis. I thought we were going to have digital access to the books we bought so that we would be able to manipulate that content digitally. Now with the push of printed power cards and such, it seems like you’re taking backwards steps.
If the D&D Insider just turns into a giant message board, or worse yet, merely an overinflated paid subscription to as advertising outlet, then I am greatly concerned. I think there are many of us who would like to know what you really have planned for the D&D Insider, and how you think it will change how RPG’s are played in the 21st century. Please make it clear to us who care, and have cared for a very long time.
Concerned and confused.
~Bret Crane
I hadn't thought of that... it would be... wow
That's the stuff dreams made of!
I mention this only because I want to be clear and shatter any stereotype that you may have about me being some mouth-breathing, non-deodorant wearing, living in my mother’s basement, working at a pizza place, kind of guy.
I hate to begin my response this way, but you should be ashamed of perpetuation such stereotypes by mentioning them in the first place. If it's anyone that knows D&D players aren't like this, it's WotC themselves. That part of your post was both completely useless and insulting.
I feel a bit miffed at the idea that you are already starting a trend to raise the subscription whenever you add a new feature (or a proposed possible new feature)No, wrong, stop that thought right there. We've been told they always planned to increase the cost of Insider, and it has nothing to do with any new/proposed features. Thinking along those lines will only make you bitter. Take it at value/price, and leave it at that. If it's worth it, pay, if not, don't.I thought we were going to have digital access to the books we bought so that we would be able to manipulate that content digitally. Now with the push of printed power cards and such, it seems like you're taking backwards steps.
First, I think we can blame the lack of digital books to those that pirated copies of such digital books. Now, we get printed books, and pirates get digital copies. WotC may have responded badly, and ****** off many fans, but you can't ignore those that stole wasn't rightfully theirs to begin with. Sucks from a customer service standpoint, but from the corporate level, preventing digital copies from being created (to then be pirated) was the natural response.
Second, as someone who would probably be playing D&D with pen/paper and minis on a paper mat regardless of the availability of an online version, I'm absolutely glad we have "printed cards and such". You might see it as a backward step, but I see it as customer care when it comes to not being prepared to take a forward step. Don't complain because they're still watching out for us.If the D&D Insider just turns into a giant message board, or worse yet, merely an overinflated paid subscription to as advertising outlet, then I am greatly concerned.
I fail to see where your thoughts have lead you to believe that Insider will become a giant message board or advertising outlet. Seriously, where'd those rampant thoughts come from?
I'd like to hear more about the status of D&D Insider. Primarily, where it's going, and what has happened to the campaign tools. (if/when do we get them, and why were they postponed to begin with)
But posting on these forums is going to do nothing but start an argument. Contacting customer service would have been useful. This, not.
All your long and drawn out post has done is expressed concern in the simple issues, irrational concern at non-issues, and some stupid sense of (possibly unintentional) elitism because of how much a part of your life D&D has been.
I was excited with your plans to use technology to rewrite how players played D&D, and to bring the game into the 21st century. I envisioned in a very close date being able to use your D&D insider applications with something like Microsoft’s multi-touch table to create a whole new experience for me as a DM, and for my players. With the ability of no longer needing to mess with endless paper maps and figs or cardboard cut-out, it would be a breeze to run a game digitally. My friend and I could relax around a multi-touch table, with player moving their characters where they were wanting them to be with no confusion, and me being able plop in what I needed without having to make statements like, “okay, the Stone Giant is actually a Red Dragon and the Skittles are Kobolds, with different colors denoting…” And as for getting the game ready; I imagined the ability to copy and paste creatures, NPC’s, traps, and all kinds of statistic into a cohesive story outline with no longer needing the ability to flip through countess books to get the details on how to actually deal with that trap, or how that monster should respond to a fire attack. I would be able to merely have my laptop open and be able to run a game in an organized fashion, because all the vital information was laid out for me because I designed it that way without the need for endless typing or constant page turning.
Addressing the heart of the complaint (as a player and insider member).
1. Don't know much about the Multi-touch Microsoft tablet, I can tell you from CB whinning, that if it they made a VTT NT-only they would have to build a moat and have boiling oil cauldron that said, you may find that Maptools (Java based) will allow the multi-touch to work. (Not positive though)
2. As of right now, with the compedium you can get all the information on traps and monsters that is in the MM, very conviently and easy. So 2 is a done deal.
Now I must admit that I’m not entirely clear on what was completely rumor, and what was completely company released information, but either way you did a poor job of clearing up bad information, and you also did a poor job of making good information clear. In the end I guess that is all that I’m asking. I’ll pay for continued rate hikes for D&D insider as long as I know what I’m really getting, and more importantly, what I will be getting and when! I feel a bit miffed at the idea that you are already starting a trend to raise the subscription whenever you add a new feature (or a proposed possible new feature), when you didn’t deliver on what you promised in the first place. Let me reiterate, I will pay for the privilege to have these tools; I just want you to be clear as to what it is leading up to and when. I thought the dungeon creator and digital game board was a given, but now it looks like it is completely scratched, or at least that is the impression I get with its removal from D&D Insider and your strong efforts to push cardboard maps and plastic minis. I thought we were going to have digital access to the books we bought so that we would be able to manipulate that content digitally. Now with the push of printed power cards and such, it seems like you’re taking backwards steps.
Actually they have been fairly clear to me on what was going on. Its not always as fast as I would like, but I am sure your wife can attest to the fact that large companies never move at the speed the consumer desires. Pretty early on, they were quite up front about underestimating the time and processes involved in creating most of the apps, so priortized. Their first goals were the compendium and the character builder. CB underwent a major change over going from web-based (not sure which web application language specific, probably Java), to .NET. Next came compendium, but as that was basically a database, it was released virtually simultaneously with CB.
Then they had a poll, and low and behold VTT didn't win, Campaign Tools won. The reasons for this can be argued (including whether their poll was the best possible way to have worded things), however it was a clear direction. We haven't received word about the VTT or Character Visulaizer (though that one doesn't seem to be a concern of yours) other than a vague 'they are not the priority right now).
If the D&D Insider just turns into a giant message board, or worse yet, merely an overinflated paid subscription to as advertising outlet, then I am greatly concerned. I think there are many of us who would like to know what you really have planned for the D&D Insider, and how you think it will change how RPG’s are played in the 21st century. Please make it clear to us who care, and have cared for a very long time.
There is a forum a bit further down
Here
Pay attention to posts from WotC_Trevor. Just read his, not the various factions that roll out every time he says a single word (If he were to declare to the sky is blue, a third of the of the forum would immediatly respond it its clearly not blue. similarly if he were to declare that the sky was red, a third of the forum would defend this position), unless you enjoy getting headaches.
VTT is not a priority right now. Campaign Tools is nebulous in what it might provide, however it is quite clear its their next project. You can as of right now easily look up monsters without digging through books, same with traps. And powers. And Items. Et cetera.
Furthermore, I do hope you emailed them, as its unlikely to get a response from WotC on these forums (for reasons of essentially those outlined above, any official post from WotC personal is met by armed conflict on the board).
Really, I don't see any advantage to having this DDi service, other than a serviceable character generator (Wizards, know what this is yet?), and a rules thingy that can be used if you have enough search time.
You have a very good post about this concern, but I don't imagine you were ever the target costumer that Wizards was going after. That would be the kids and new players that will rush in, look at it, and then drop it like a 2 ton weight.
BTW our D&D group has 2 DMs. Myself and my best friend. My best friend lives at home and works 50 hours per week at a pizzeria. He has an IQ of over 144 and a near photographic memory. Moreover, he really enjoys his life. He actually makes decent bucks as he has been there for many years and is invaluable to the owner. If he is happy and working why make fun of him or belittle him? He could have been a criminal selling drugs on the street or even worse.
The final price for this service will be 20 bucks a month, mark my words. It is the price they wanted to charge in the first place.
Really, I don't see any advantage to having this DDi service, other than a serviceable character generator (Wizards, know what this is yet?), and a rules thingy that can be used if you have enough search time.
You have a very good post about this concern, but I don't imagine you were ever the target costumer that Wizards was going after. That would be the kids and new players that will rush in, look at it, and then drop it like a 2 ton weight.
Yeah, $20/month if you're silly enough to pay for your subscription one month at a time. Your words have been marked; see you in 2040 when they come true.
As for the trolling, "D&DI is for stoopid kidz!!1! Hurr..." please go away, thaX. We all know you dislike D&DI, and that you refuse to believe it might be useful to anyone, not even all the folks (like me) who find it to be a good service for a great value.
PS: By the way, how do you feel about Half-Orcs in PH2, thaX? What a waste of paper, right? Especially considering that they already appeared in PH1 under the "Dragonborn" name...
PS: By the way, how do you feel about Half-Orcs in PH2, thaX? What a waste of paper, right? Especially considering that they already appeared in PH1 under the "Dragonborn" name...
I agree with you there, two races almost the same, with deferring backgrounds. So what is up with the eyeroll?
I agree with you there, two races almost the same, with deferring backgrounds. So what is up with the eyeroll?
Because he doesn't agree with you at all, and thinks your thoughts on the situation are humorous?
Because he doesn't agree with you at all, and thinks your thoughts on the situation are humorous?
Bingo!
Due to a heck of a lot of bills and a child on the way, I hadn't purchased anything regarding insider as of last month.
I finally decided to spend the $8 and see if it was worth it. Worst case scenario, I get a bunch of cool articles from Dungeon and Dragon magazine I used to subscribe to anyway, and could see if it was worth it.
Yeah, the D&D site used to offer a whole bunch of stuff for free that is now in the magazines. That kinda sucks, since now we have to pay for it (kinda like a credit card) to use it; but if you look at it like, "well, we got a bunch of stuff for free for many years - but now they are making us pay," it's not so bad. I dunno if that helps; and I miss the paper mags like most people; but this is such a niche industry that magazines for us at the prices they were are becoming not nearly as practical with the inflation of prices for ink and paper (let alone shipping - gas prices...sheesh.)
I believe the magazines, even though not in print, is worth the $10 a month they are asking for. But that's not all you get. I don't know if you bought any of the power cards released (which I purchased most of the first set....there's a waste of $100), but since the character builder spits out the power cards (as well as an action point, all racial powers on cards, all item power cards, basic attack cards, etc) with all of the appropriate math built in...it makes for such a fine application. The encounter builder, which I haven't used much of yet, is crazy awesome. You type in a level, type of enemy (controller, leader, etc) and it pulls up every stat block of that level -including the stuff from dungeon mags. Do you want to know how much time i used to spend writing all that junk down when I had the paper mags; so when I wanted to find a villain for a home brew adventure, I didn't have to spend 3 hours applying all the feats and such to create the villain? Probably as much time as it took me to write it all down and devise a system to look it up.
However, i also understand your disappointment with what was promised and what was not delivered. Kinda like Vista (eek - bugs!). But seriously, I am disappointed as well that wizards 1st didn't adhere to their own deadline (imagine what that would be like for their books coming out late!) and second, unfulfilled promises.
Even though, Insider is extremely worth the value. The price is increasing next month (I think). Try not to think of what the value would have been; try to think what the value is currently.
Short of that; you can stay mad, or check out other companies.
If they made a version for Mac I would get it. Actually... I don't know if I see anything completely worth while as I glance over its contents...
i think playing D&D on the touch table would be cool
That would be why I'm building one.
Of course I'm not too interested in the WotCs VTT (especially now that it has been effectively cancelled, or indefinitely delayed if you want to put a semi-positive spin on it). It wasn't showing me anything special and I would have used MapTool or something similar even if it had been released.
Plus my table will probably be running OS X or Linux anyways
I’ll admit that I don’t normally post on the message board. I’ll occasionally browse through them when I’m curious about something in particular. My purpose was really to hopefully get my message to WotC in some way. I also emailed this message to D&D Insider. I was hoping to email it to someone specific, but I couldn't seem to find any emails. I wasn’t sure how active WotC (D&D Insider) responds of even reads their email, so that is why I posted this message on to location on the message boards (under Future Releases and Community Business). If you have some suggested emails please let me know… maybe WotC will read this somehow, somewhere, sometime.
I’ll try to respond to some of the points people brought up in this one message and then post it to both location. So, if you’re reading this and don’t understand the reference, it was because it was in the other message thread.
First – I actually like D&D Insider. I think that so far the tools have been quite useful. The point is the it has fallen far short of how it was advertised and how game store owners were spreading the word of how cool it would be and why 4th edition would be such a step forward for gaming… because of the tie-in and support which D&D Insider would provide. Then I received the email announcement (since I am a DDI member) that rates would be going up so that I was able to get in on a good offer. Okay, that’s great, but I couldn’t help getting the feeling that I had already rented a furnished apartment, and now after I signed the contract I find out that it really only comes with a mattress and one chair. And now a few months later, I’m told by the landlord that he’ll be raising the rent because he’s thinking about supplying a clock radio. I’m just sayin’… I just want the original promises to be fulfilled, and when they weren’t, I felt a bit slighted. Some people seemed to be offended that I would even post something like this on the forum, because it would just cause arguments. Like I said I was just trying to get word to WotC. If you don’t think that any of my concerns had any merit, well then more power to you, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Second – For those of you who jumped to WotC defense like I kicked your grandma in the face…. WotC is a big kid, they can take care of themselves. For those of you who think that WotC is the ultimate big brother, and they are always looking out for us poor games, like were their kid brother, I hate to say it, but I think you’re fooling yourself. Sure, they may have a great sentiment about doing what is best for “gamers”, but they are a business, plain and simple, a very big business (can you say Hasbro). Don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with that. I’m all for them making money. Heck, they could double their DDI prices and I’d most likely pay it… as long as I got the product I was promised.
Third – If I offended any basement dwelling, pizzeria working, gamers out there, I apologize. If it makes you happy, and you have enough for your needs, I think that is great. I’ve been there.. I’ve done it all, bussed tables at a Mexican restaurant, worked security, worked as a bouncer, a repo-man, a foster care big brother. I’ve done a lot of jobs that aren’t going to make me rich… heck, I’m a teacher, I’m not going to get rich that way, but it’s what I want to do, so I understand doing what makes you happy.. Believe me. I brought up the stereotype, because it is sometimes all too real. Go to any convention and you’ll see it. Hey, I love my non-deodorant wearing brothers-in-arms, but I was trying to make a point to WotC that even game designers sometime get a warped sense of who they are writing games for, because they often see the stereotype (that I’m fairly certain) approaches them by email, message board, or smell. I don’t think they always remember that there are plenty of 30-40 year old professionals out there that are still playing D&D and promoting it in the community. That is why I run an afterschool games club, to help promote the next generation of gamers, and to show them that there is more to gamer life than Halo.
Fourth – Some people seemed to feel that it wasn’t WotC’s fault, but it was all the big bad digital pirates out there, as to why features were pulled. Believe me I hear all about pirates (big pirates) from my wife and friends who work at Microsoft (can you say China). I for one am looking forward to the day when I can start up a game anywhere without the need of lugging 50 lbs. of books and crates full of maps and minis. “Want to play?” No problem… “I have my laptop with me, and my adventures are on line and ready to go.. yeah, of course I have a copy of your PC. Let’s roll!” **OR – if you have access to a multi touch… “No problem, I have your characters on my phone, and my dungeon notes…let’s roll!”** As far as I understood it, this was WotC’s vision also. It’s the future. If you can’t adapt to a new way of doing business, you may find yourself in trouble. I know all about it, I will be starting my masters program in a year to focus on curriculum design and e-learning. It is the way that things are moving… No, it is the way things have already moved, and when education is finally starting to get on board then you know the race started a long time ago(i.e. education is notoriously slow to change anything).
Link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP5y7yp06n0 Check out the possibilities.
So, if you disagree with me, okay, I can live with that, so I apologize if I wasted you message board space. I was just frustrated and I wanted to find a way to let WotC know how I felt.
Thanks for your time.
~Bret Crane
I’ll admit that I don’t normally post on the message board. I’ll occasionally browse through them when I’m curious about something in particular. My purpose was really to hopefully get my message to WotC in some way. I also emailed this message to D&D Insider. I was hoping to email it to someone specific, but I couldn't seem to find any emails. I wasn’t sure how active WotC (D&D Insider) responds of even reads their email, so that is why I posted this message on to location on the message boards (under Future Releases and Community Business). If you have some suggested emails please let me know… maybe WotC will read this somehow, somewhere, sometime.
I’ll try to respond to some of the points people brought up in this one message and then post it to both location. So, if you’re reading this and don’t understand the reference, it was because it was in the other message thread.
First – I actually like D&D Insider. I think that so far the tools have been quite useful. The point is the it has fallen far short of how it was advertised and how game store owners were spreading the word of how cool it would be and why 4th edition would be such a step forward for gaming… because of the tie-in and support which D&D Insider would provide. Then I received the email announcement (since I am a DDI member) that rates would be going up so that I was able to get in on a good offer. Okay, that’s great, but I couldn’t help getting the feeling that I had already rented a furnished apartment, and now after I signed the contract I find out that it really only comes with a mattress and one chair. And now a few months later, I’m told by the landlord that he’ll be raising the rent because he’s thinking about supplying a clock radio. I’m just sayin’… I just want the original promises to be fulfilled, and when they weren’t, I felt a bit slighted. Some people seemed to be offended that I would even post something like this on the forum, because it would just cause arguments. Like I said I was just trying to get word to WotC. If you don’t think that any of my concerns had any merit, well then more power to you, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Second – For those of you who jumped to WotC defense like I kicked your grandma in the face…. WotC is a big kid, they can take care of themselves. For those of you who think that WotC is the ultimate big brother, and they are always looking out for us poor games, like were their kid brother, I hate to say it, but I think you’re fooling yourself. Sure, they may have a great sentiment about doing what is best for “gamers”, but they are a business, plain and simple, a very big business (can you say Hasbro). Don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with that. I’m all for them making money. Heck, they could double their DDI prices and I’d most likely pay it… as long as I got the product I was promised.
Third – If I offended any basement dwelling, pizzeria working, gamers out there, I apologize. If it makes you happy, and you have enough for your needs, I think that is great. I’ve been there.. I’ve done it all, bussed tables at a Mexican restaurant, worked security, worked as a bouncer, a repo-man, a foster care big brother. I’ve done a lot of jobs that aren’t going to make me rich… heck, I’m a teacher, I’m not going to get rich that way, but it’s what I want to do, so I understand doing what makes you happy.. Believe me. I brought up the stereotype, because it is sometimes all too real. Go to any convention and you’ll see it. Hey, I love my non-deodorant wearing brothers-in-arms, but I was trying to make a point to WotC that even game designers sometime get a warped sense of who they are writing games for, because they often see the stereotype (that I’m fairly certain) approaches them by email, message board, or smell. I don’t think they always remember that there are plenty of 30-40 year old professionals out there that are still playing D&D and promoting it in the community. That is why I run an afterschool games club, to help promote the next generation of gamers, and to show them that there is more to gamer life than Halo.
Fourth – Some people seemed to feel that it wasn’t WotC’s fault, but it was all the big bad digital pirates out there, as to why features were pulled. Believe me I hear all about pirates (big pirates) from my wife and friends who work at Microsoft (can you say China). I for one am looking forward to the day when I can start up a game anywhere without the need of lugging 50 lbs. of books and crates full of maps and minis. “Want to play?” No problem… “I have my laptop with me, and my adventures are on line and ready to go.. yeah, of course I have a copy of your PC. Let’s roll!” **OR – if you have access to a multi touch… “No problem, I have your characters on my phone, and my dungeon notes…let’s roll!”** As far as I understood it, this was WotC’s vision also. It’s the future. If you can’t adapt to a new way of doing business, you may find yourself in trouble. I know all about it, I will be starting my masters program in a year to focus on curriculum design and e-learning. It is the way that things are moving… No, it is the way things have already moved, and when education is finally starting to get on board then you know the race started a long time ago(i.e. education is notoriously slow to change anything).
Link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP5y7yp06n0 Check out the possibilities.
So, if you disagree with me, okay, I can live with that, so I apologize if I wasted you message board space. I was just frustrated and I wanted to find a way to let WotC know how I felt.
Thanks for your time.
~Bret Crane
That said, there is only one thing I would like to point out and that is the DDi price. WotC intended the price to be in the same monthly range of what people would spend on a MMORPG, such as WoW, so about $15 a month.
The price was initially lower, because DDi didn't have all of the promised supplements active yet. As more of them come out, they will be raising the price towards that initial price range.
As for the future DDi releases...
I could care less about the character visualizer. Who really NEEDS that anyway? There's going to be a lot of people out there who won't be able to get what their character looked like in their head, and when using thre visualizer, they'll just be settling for "good enough". Also, it's completely useless as a gaming aid, it's just a "neat little trick"
Dungeon Builder...This has a lot of potential. I don't know that I really NEED it, as I'm fine with Poster Markers and a giant pad of drafting paper (You get like 50 sheets of giant paper with 1" grids for like $11 at any office supply store, a must for DMs who use minis but not dungeon tiles). I'll really only be excited for the dungeon builder as it applies in conjuction with the big tamale...
The Game Table. I'm in the Navy. And serving my country sometimes means serving my country hundreds of miles from my gaming group. The Game Table would allow me to continue my favorite campaigns with my favorite players. I really don't even care if it's got half the fancy stuff they've been offering. Yeah 3D rendering of every mini would be cool, but honestly, if it's 2 dimensional tiles and 2D Icons used for minis with little pictures in them I don't care. As long as there's a dice roller program, voice chat (preferably), and quick access to the maps that I create and some system of visual communication as well, such as when a player slides a monster him indicating to the DM where he wants the monster to go. These things would make me happy.
... I also emailed this message to D&D Insider. I was hoping to email it to someone specific, but I couldn't seem to find any emails. I wasn’t sure how active WotC (D&D Insider) responds of even reads their email, so that is why I posted this message on to location on the message boards (under Future Releases and Community Business). If you have some suggested emails please let me know… maybe WotC will read this somehow, somewhere, sometime.
I have e-mailed these guys MANY times, each e-mail being about various things from questions about gaming to proposals and ideas. I have NEVER received anything other than their automated response (telling me they got the message).
I suppose that they receive a ton of e-mails every day and that its probably pretty hard to sift through, but I am very curious as to how many people have actually gotten a response about things around here. I have seen Staff leave posts in response to questions here. I think this post is a better bet than any e-mail you could send them, personally.
I too DM for some kids down the street and am involved in a professional career, so I definitely feel where you are coming from. I keep buying the products cause I f-c-ing love this game! But I agree with you.
Wow! A lot of interesting responses. Some people seemed to get my frustration, and others jumped to defense of WotC as if I just kicked their grandmother in the face.
So the only two options are agreeing with you or massively over-reacting? Can you point me to someone who reacted as if you "kicked their grandmother in the face"? Was that AlphaSquirrel's well-reasoned response or Aluman's?
Okay, that’s great, but I couldn’t help getting the feeling that I had already rented a furnished apartment, and now after I signed the contract I find out that it really only comes with a mattress and one chair. And now a few months later, I’m told by the landlord that he’ll be raising the rent because he’s thinking about supplying a clock radio.
A more apt metaphor would be that you rented a furnished apartment for one rate, and the landlord told you he was going to add a deck (and made it clear that the cost of the deck was not factored into your initial lease). Now he's announced that A) building the deck isn't really feasible, and he's planning on doing other, more reasonable additions instead, B) your lease is about to be up, and the rent will go up when you renew your lease but C) if you renew your lease right now, you can have it at the old rate!
I’m just sayin’… I just want the original promises to be fulfilled, and when they weren’t, I felt a bit slighted. Some people seemed to be offended that I would even post something like this on the forum, because it would just cause arguments. Like I said I was just trying to get word to WotC. If you don’t think that any of my concerns had any merit, well then more power to you, but we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Sure, your concerns have merit. Vaporware is always disappointing, for the consumer AND the developer. Given your connections, surely you realize that's true? Ask your wife, where's the new filesystem I was promised for Longhorn? It turned out to be infeasible. It's sad, but sometimes companies bite off more than they can chew, both minor subsidiaries of toy companies and mammoth software giants. Neither company is evil for realigning priorities.
But "we'll have to agree to disagree" is more than a little intellectually dishonest. This is a discussion forum. For, y'know, discussion. Discussions sometimes result in disagreement. If you were unprepared for anyone to disagree with you, you probably should have stuck to email.
Second – For those of you who jumped to WotC defense like I kicked your grandma in the face…. WotC is a big kid, they can take care of themselves.
You wrote it twice, so I'll ask twice: Who responded that way? I see a lot of posts agreeing with you, and a few disagreeing, but none seemed to be hysterical in the way you make them sound.
What should someone do when they disagree with you?
So, if you disagree with me, okay, I can live with that, so I apologize if I wasted you message board space. I was just frustrated and I wanted to find a way to let WotC know how I felt.
The passive aggression is charming, but the forums are for the community, not for direct communications to WotC. For that, there's email. I could walk up and down the streets of Redmond shouting about the problems I'm currently having with my Sharepoint installation, hoping that someone from Microsoft hears me, but I think I'd get a better response by emailing customer service, don't you?
Is your complaint that they promised the VTT and you don't have it? That's a valid complaint, to a point. I wish I was playing Duke Nukem Forever right now, but hey, things fall apart. I haven't paid for Duke Nukem 4, the VTT or a new filesystem that's sitting on top of a relational database; so the fact that I don't have any of those doesn't bother me much. In WotC's case, they sent me an email to let me know about what they are, and are not, working on. I'd certainly like more information, but they haven't hidden anything from me nor lied to me.
As to your complaint about lack of communication, was WotC's communication actually poor, or did you just not like what they had to say? They sent you an email letting you know that they aren't working on the VTT and they're going to work on other projects instead. How much more clear should they have been?
As I said the post seems addressed to someone else so I haven't read it, but for those who have please be sure your not just feeding the trolls.
Sure, your concerns have merit. Vaporware is always disappointing, for the consumer AND the developer. Given your connections, surely you realize that's true? Ask your wife, where's the new filesystem I was promised for Longhorn? It turned out to be infeasible. It's sad, but sometimes companies bite off more than they can chew, both minor subsidiaries of toy companies and mammoth software giants. Neither company is evil for realigning priorities.
OK... about this. The new filing system was not scraped because it was unfeasible, but that it would not work with the new DRM system that Vista is plagued with. The original developers of that file system has since been let go and have tossed around the idea of coming out with an OS of their own.
Microsoft, when Vista was being worked on and as it began to turn south, had tried to force this DRM stuff upon us and mostly abandoned any worthwhile advance in OS technology, making the new, pretty OS Vista into a resource hog as it forever checks every little piece of software and hardware to make sure it is officially owned by the user or used with permission.
Win 7, however, has taken back some of this, and reverted back to the previous network numbers, so the new network snafus are mostly gone. DRM is still there, but it no longer sum checks continually like Vista does.
OK... about this. The new filing system was not scraped because it was unfeasible, but that it would not work with the new DRM system that Vista is plagued with. The original developers of that file system has since been let go and have tossed around the idea of coming out with an OS of their own.
I think you've missed the point by a rather large margin. Regardless of the reason, a feature was in development that wasn't released. I'm not complaining about Vista, I'm trying to point the OP to similar circumstances closer to home.
OK... about this. The new filing system was not scraped because it was unfeasible, but that it would not work with the new DRM system that Vista is plagued with. The original developers of that file system has since been let go and have tossed around the idea of coming out with an OS of their own.
Microsoft, when Vista was being worked on and as it began to turn south, had tried to force this DRM stuff upon us and mostly abandoned any worthwhile advance in OS technology, making the new, pretty OS Vista into a resource hog as it forever checks every little piece of software and hardware to make sure it is officially owned by the user or used with permission.
Win 7, however, has taken back some of this, and reverted back to the previous network numbers, so the new network snafus are mostly gone. DRM is still there, but it no longer sum checks continually like Vista does.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but it would be courteous of you to post in English, rather than jargon. At any rate, it's not even the least bit clear to me how your post is related to the topic.
Second – For those of you who jumped to WotC defense like I kicked your grandma in the face…. WotC is a big kid, they can take care of themselves. For those of you who think that WotC is the ultimate big brother, and they are always looking out for us poor games, like were their kid brother, I hate to say it, but I think you’re fooling yourself. Sure, they may have a great sentiment about doing what is best for “gamers”, but they are a business, plain and simple, a very big business (can you say Hasbro). Don’t get me wrong. I have no problem with that. I’m all for them making money. Heck, they could double their DDI prices and I’d most likely pay it… as long as I got the product I was promised.
There's a lot of noise that has been made about D&DI, some legitimate and some not. Your concerns fall into the category of "(At least debatably) legitimate"; in contrast, many of the complaints leveled against it have been unfounded or patently false, owing to edition wars and D&DI's de facto affiliation with 4E. There are genuine shortcomings to WotC's "digital initiative", but overall, there are a heck of a lot of us who do currently subscribe and are still highly impressed with the quality and value of the content, despite the "missing features"; we remain optimistic about the future of D&D and D&DI.
PapaMojo, myself and my longtime gaming group (about 10 people total) that have been playing since first and second editions have all stopped purchasing products/supporting WotC due to the DDI debacle. We have all switched to Pathfinder instead. We are letting our money do the talking.
That's a shame, but if that's how strongly you feel, so be it! Good luck to you, and I hope you'll reconsider 4E D&D in the future.
As I mentioned above, many of us remain optimistic.
PapaMojo, myself and my longtime gaming group (about 10 people total) that have been playing since first and second editions have all stopped purchasing products/supporting WotC due to the DDI debacle. We have all switched to Pathfinder instead. We are letting our money do the talking.
Yeah since Pathfinder is such a better option. LOL
I look forward to the 4th edition conversion in about three years.
PapaMojo, I like a lot of the stuff you said, and I'm glad you sent that ion to WotC in a calm, professional manner.
That said, there is only one thing I would like to point out and that is the DDi price. WotC intended the price to be in the same monthly range of what people would spend on a MMORPG, such as WoW, so about $15 a month.
The price was initially lower, because DDi didn't have all of the promised supplements active yet. As more of them come out, they will be raising the price towards that initial price range.
As for the future DDi releases...
I could care less about the character visualizer. Who really NEEDS that anyway? There's going to be a lot of people out there who won't be able to get what their character looked like in their head, and when using thre visualizer, they'll just be settling for "good enough". Also, it's completely useless as a gaming aid, it's just a "neat little trick"
Dungeon Builder...This has a lot of potential. I don't know that I really NEED it, as I'm fine with Poster Markers and a giant pad of drafting paper (You get like 50 sheets of giant paper with 1" grids for like $11 at any office supply store, a must for DMs who use minis but not dungeon tiles). I'll really only be excited for the dungeon builder as it applies in conjuction with the big tamale...
You know you can buy a battlemat from Chessex (or me) for less than your going to pay for 2 pads of those papers. It is wet erase and lasts nearly forever (I've had mine for many years now).
The Game Table. I'm in the Navy. And serving my country sometimes means serving my country hundreds of miles from my gaming group. The Game Table would allow me to continue my favorite campaigns with my favorite players. I really don't even care if it's got half the fancy stuff they've been offering. Yeah 3D rendering of every mini would be cool, but honestly, if it's 2 dimensional tiles and 2D Icons used for minis with little pictures in them I don't care. As long as there's a dice roller program, voice chat (preferably), and quick access to the maps that I create and some system of visual communication as well, such as when a player slides a monster him indicating to the DM where he wants the monster to go. These things would make me happy.
While I'm not in the army, I have the same problems. I don't have a gaming group where I live, and can't seem to get a stable group together. So playing face to face is just not viable for me. I need a competent VTT that I don't have to type every little rule, monster, character, power, skill, feat, race ability, and class ability into. Other than that I'm fine with D&Di. I'll purchase a month every six months or so just to update the CB and download all of the dragon and dungeon magazines. I'm find with the price of $10 for 6 months worth of content minus the nearly worthless bonus tools. (the compendium is almost useful).
Oh by the way I completely support the troops 100%, I just don't support the politicians that send them into harms way over political disagreements.
I'm sorry, but Pathfinder is a very well made product. That it uses the old OGL and is trying to "fix" the old edition to make a "3.75" shouldn't take back the fact that the background and setting is stellar stuff.
I look forward to the 4th edition conversion in about three years.
I've never played pathfinder, but from the dragon magazine content from when Paizo was printing it I'd have to agree with you that it is probably well made.
I really think that they need to draft a new GSL that allows a lot more leeway. I really hate having to look through an adventure and then have to flip through the pages of the PHB, DMG, or MM to find an obscure reference to a rule, monster, character, power, skill, feat, race ability, or class ability because the current GSL prevents anyone from copying them.
I would have had no problem with it if they would have completed their digital initiative. It would have been nice to be able to release digital products that link D&DI subscribers directly to the rule, monster, character, power, skill, feat, race ability, or class ability that was mentioned (after a log in screen of course). Sadly their digital initiative has fallen far short of what it could have been. This is what really saddens me.
I’ll agree, perhaps my “charming passive aggressive” tone was too much, or misplaced. I was frustrated and wanted to keep it fairly light. But, because of that, the negative responses seemed to have a bit of venom behind them. I’m all for a good discussion, and I don’t mind people disagreeing with me (many do), but admittedly I was directing this email at WotC with the intent that they would hear me, and consider what I had to say. As was stated by Sands666, they don’t seem to do very well at responding to emails. For the fact that they moved my posts from a different thread, and doubled them up here tells me that perhaps they’re watching, but also not willing to respond in this arena either.
So, let me more succinctly summarize (without the passive aggressiveness, and without any analogies) what my concerns originally were, and still are:
1) The content for the new 4th edition material that was included in the original release of DDI turned out to be quite different from what was presented through anything I saw from WotC, and what was being pushed my game store owners as a reason why I should purchase 4th edition. Namely this was the use of digital copies of the books we would buy from a brick-and-mortar store; that updates and errata would automatically be revised in our digital versions. This would allow us access to our purchases anywhere we could find a internet connection, so that it would facilitate the ability to play from anywhere.
2) Originally promised content was not complete, and was put in the status of “soon to be released” within DDI. That content (dungeon creator, and dungeon table), is now missing entirely, and by all indications WotC is now, very much pushing cardboard mapping and new plastic minis. This could either be a way to keep customers happy until the digital content is worked out and completed, or it is because they are not going to even trying to finish the digital content and the plastic and paper products are being presented as a final substitute. This concerns me because I have not received any clear word on what WotC’s plan is, and again this is content that was promised, but was not delivered.
3) I don’t have a problem paying for the digital content or with the rates of digital content being raised. One person posted that WotC’s original pricing intent was to make it comparable with a subscription for WoW. I don’t have a problem with that either. What I do have a problem with is that WotC is already starting to initiate a rate increase when any content additions they have made falls far short of the content that was scrapped. In truth I also don’t have a huge problem with this either IF WotC was more clear on what their plans are, and that they were more honest about what went wrong and if they intend to fix the initial problems, or do they plan to come up with a new plan altogether.
4) If any game company has the ability to move RPG’s into the 21st century in regards to form and function it is Wizards of the Coast. I had the very clear impression that this was WotC’s intent. They fell far short of their intended mark. I would just like to be informed of what their new plan is so that I have a better idea of making an informed purchase of future WotC product and whether it will be worth it in the long run.
Hopefully that is more clear. I apologize if I’ve wasted this forum’s time (and space), but as I stated, I felt that it was important (along with my gaming group) that I got word to WotC in some way.
Regards
~Bret Crane
D&DInsider is big step forward, but has fallen WAY short of what I expected (or thought I was paying for).
They obviously overpromised way more than they could deliver. Even during the free preview period for the Dragon/Dungeon issues, they failed to release all the issues. (Some are STILL not yet available as consolidated PDF's as they promised).
I am hopeful they will eventually deliver on the gaming table.
You know you can buy a battlemat from Chessex (or me) for less than your going to pay for 2 pads of those papers. It is wet erase and lasts nearly forever (I've had mine for many years now).
Actually, I started off using wet-erase mats. Got a bunch of 'em for free, too, because I worked for the RPGA at GenCon several years in a row, and when the convention was cleaning up, I helped, and usually got to swipe some extra swag.
I like draft paper better, and here's why.
- Wet erase mats eventually, inevitably stain
- Sometimes the residue as I'm wiping it off gets on the table or someone's stuff and stains it.
- In a long-running game, I can make several maps in advance of the session and reveal them in sections, shavint ime off of drawing them each encounter.
- It's bigger that most mats, allowing me to create larger battlefields with more terrain.
Oh by the way I completely support the troops 100%
Believe it or not, we never get tired of hearing that from civilians. Thank You.
WotC - As a software engineer, I understand it always takes longer and costs more money than you planned, even when you take that fact into account. However, D&DI is a huge disappointment. It's very buggy, unfinished, over a year past deadline, and has little to show of the finished product.
I have no idea what sort of process you're doing or what the funding looks like, or your software team's work dynamic, experience, and morale are. However, I have a few suggestions that you can take or leave.
Maybe some process improvement might help. The key is to customize it for the scope of your project.
And also some estimation software like ICE or COSTAR would help you to prevent putting your feet in your mouths in the future.
And one thing to really remember is that the guy with ten years of experience who charges $90000 a year is cheaper than three guys charging $30000 a year fresh out of college, because the 90k guy will on average get it done faster and with fewer bugs.
I estimate that the game table would require 6 or 7 programmers with 5+ years of experience, at least one task lead with 10+ years, one technical lead with extensive experience in online games (maybe find someone from a real video game company like Blizzard or Square), a few graphic arists specializing in 3D Max or equivalent software for meshes, animations, and textures, a music specialist for sound effects and background music, and a project manager. Give that team one to two years, focusing only on the game table. And avoid giving a release date until it's at least 80% complete. For two years that would put the game table's project cost around $3.5 million.
Repeat that process for the other D&DI components. Cost will vary depending on scope.
OP - you know people in Microsoft? Microsoft is famous for being open minded towards new things, maybe you could suggest that they contact WotC with interest of contracting out some work to fix the D&DI and get it running in time. Microsoft is even really close by WotC physically.
WotC - As a software engineer, I understand it always takes longer and costs more money than you planned, even when you take that fact into account. However, D&DI is a huge disappointment. It's very buggy, unfinished, over a year past deadline, and has little to show of the finished product.
I have no idea what sort of process you're doing or what the funding looks like, or your software team's work dynamic, experience, and morale are. However, I have a few suggestions that you can take or leave.
Maybe some process improvement might help. The key is to customize it for the scope of your project.
And also some estimation software like ICE or COSTAR would help you to prevent putting your feet in your mouths in the future.
And one thing to really remember is that the guy with ten years of experience who charges $90000 a year is cheaper than three guys charging $30000 a year fresh out of college, because the 90k guy will on average get it done faster and with fewer bugs.
I estimate that the game table would require 6 or 7 programmers with 5+ years of experience, at least one task lead with 10+ years, one technical lead with extensive experience in online games (maybe find someone from a real video game company like Blizzard or Square), a few graphic arists specializing in 3D Max or equivalent software for meshes, animations, and textures, a music specialist for sound effects and background music, and a project manager. Give that team one to two years, focusing only on the game table. And avoid giving a release date until it's at least 80% complete. For two years that would put the game table's project cost around $3.5 million.
Repeat that process for the other D&DI components. Cost will vary depending on scope.
I am a game programmer, and you could easily do it with the specs you give, but I am under the impression that they have much less to work with. Since the VTT is a lot less ambitious than an actual game the budget can be less and the experience can be less, but I agree that they would need someone that has MMO game networking experience as well as a project lead that actually knows how to lead (not just a programmer that has been promoted because they are good at programming). I think that they have some kind of system that allows them to take the designs from the modeling program for the miniatures and convert it directly to an animated mesh, but I could be wrong.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but it would be courteous of you to post in English, rather than jargon. At any rate, it's not even the least bit clear to me how your post is related to the topic.
OK...
The Filing system was scraped for the Digital Rights Management (DRM) scheme that "Protects" copyrighted items. This can be your Video Card, that game you play, the music you listen to, or the nifty Blu Ray movies you watch. Vista checks on everything in the computer constantly, making sure that every little thing has been "Paid" for.
Win7 still has this DRM, but the constant checking on things has been removed, and the networking, that thing you use to get online or connect puters together in a Local Address Network (LAN) Party, has been reverted back to XP style, mostly.
Because the new filing system, and other little things, was scraped, Vista ended up with high requirements for a computer to run it, and it uses resources like Memory and processing routes ineffectively, slowing the OS down to where the previous OS (WinXP) ended up being faster than the newer one when running programs, like games or math intensive apps, that use these resources. This is on top of the new firewall that asks about every little move the hard drive needle makes, and the DRM constantly checking everything out before letting it run.
Win 7, however, seems to require less than Vista, runs smoother and has ironed out the problems that Vista created.
Put it another way. Vista is the new Win ME. Win 7 comes out in the fall, 2009
For the fact that they moved my posts from a different thread, and doubled them up here tells me that perhaps they’re watching, but also not willing to respond in this arena either.
Just so you know, moving threads was probably done by community volunteers, not by WotC directly, so don't take that as evidence that any higher ups have actually seen the thread.
To also be clear, I don't actually disagree with you in spirit. I too would like to see a much greater push for digital content from WotC. I do think that a good number of your expectations are out of line with what they originally suggested, or have been fulfilled in ways that maybe you just didn't imagine ("that updates and errata would automatically be revised in our digital versions" is pretty much what the Compendium is, after all, so complaining that you don't have it does not compute for me). I have no problem with disappointment in things not working out as expected, and while I do think they did a poor job of managing expectations, I think a number of people's expectations were out of line with what WotC said they would do.
Here's what I think the saddest part is: I get the impression that WotC isn't being more specific in what they're going to offer and when because they don't know. I have absolutely no evidence of this, but I get the sneaking suspicion that they are floundering more than a little, and want to offer a lot of electronic services that they just don't know how to offer.
To clarify on the digital updates:
4th Edition was sold to me (from varous game store owners) on the idea that we would be purchasing books from a brick and mortar store, which would come with a code that would give us access to an online version of said book. Then when an errata would come out, the online version would be updated (including changes from other source books). This would mean that you wouldn't need to keep flipping through pages in an errata, or searching for the correct rule online, but that your Player Handbook (or what have you) would be updated as a continual working document. As it is now I have all kinds of red ink scribbles in all my books as proof that WotC really needs to hire some better proof readers and/or do a better job of play testing.
To clarify on the digital updates:
4th Edition was sold to me (from varous game store owners) on the idea that we would be purchasing books from a brick and mortar store, which would come with a code that would give us access to an online version of said book. Then when an errata would come out, the online version would be updated (including changes from other source books). This would mean that you wouldn't need to keep flipping through pages in an errata, or searching for the correct rule online, but that your Player Handbook (or what have you) would be updated as a continual working document. As it is now I have all kinds of red ink scribbles in all my books as proof that WotC really needs to hire some better proof readers and/or do a better job of play testing.
I just want to point out that this digital version idea that you mentioned was dead for at least half a year before 4th edition came out. It was mentioned once during the initial announcement of 4th edition. It might have been repeated for a few weeks afterwards, and soon afterwards it was realized that it was completely and utterly unfeasable for a multitude of reasons and the idea was silently scrapped. Instead they changed the compendium and character builder to give you access to all books(the original plan called for both to contain only info from the books you had entered the code for).
OK...
The Filing system was scraped for the Digital Rights Management (DRM) scheme that "Protects" copyrighted items. This can be your Video Card, that game you play, the music you listen to, or the nifty Blu Ray movies you watch. Vista checks on everything in the computer constantly, making sure that every little thing has been "Paid" for.
Win7 still has this DRM, but the constant checking on things has been removed, and the networking, that thing you use to get online or connect puters together in a Local Address Network (LAN) Party, has been reverted back to XP style, mostly.
Because the new filing system, and other little things, was scraped, Vista ended up with high requirements for a computer to run it, and it uses resources like Memory and processing routes ineffectively, slowing the OS down to where the previous OS (WinXP) ended up being faster than the newer one when running programs, like games or math intensive apps, that use these resources. This is on top of the new firewall that asks about every little move the hard drive needle makes, and the DRM constantly checking everything out before letting it run.
Win 7, however, seems to require less than Vista, runs smoother and has ironed out the problems that Vista created.
Put it another way. Vista is the new Win ME. Win 7 comes out in the fall, 2009
I have to admit: that was a helpful translation. Thank you for that. However, I'm still not clear what at all this has to do with the topic at hand...
4th Edition was sold to me (from varous game store owners) on the idea that we would be purchasing books from a brick and mortar store, which would come with a code that would give us access to an online version of said book. Then when an errata would come out, the online version would be updated (including changes from other source books). This would mean that you wouldn't need to keep flipping through pages in an errata, or searching for the correct rule online, but that your Player Handbook (or what have you) would be updated as a continual working document. As it is now I have all kinds of red ink scribbles in all my books as proof that WotC really needs to hire some better proof readers and/or do a better job of play testing.
Then the people you should be upset with are the game store owners. WotC has never said, to my knowledge, that they would do that. This is what I mean when I say people's expectations are massively out of line with what was proposed. I could expect that you're going to come to my house and wash my car tomorrow, because Thax said so; but since you haven't said you're going to, when you don't show up it's not really my right to be upset with you.
please refer to time code 7:15 on this YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs&feature=related
I don't think it is too much to ask for clear intent and time frames for digital tools that were supposed to be ready back at the 4E release over a year ago. How long has the character visualizer been in beta? Is the D&D game table ever going to come? At what point do we the loyal player base and customers have the right to ask the tough questions that Wizards maybe embarrassed to answer?
First, I think we can blame the lack of digital books to those that pirated copies of such digital books. Now, we get printed books, and pirates get digital copies. WotC may have responded badly, and ****** off many fans, but you can't ignore those that stole wasn't rightfully theirs to begin with. Sucks from a customer service standpoint, but from the corporate level, preventing digital copies from being created (to then be pirated) was the natural response.
Second, as someone who would probably be playing D&D with pen/paper and minis on a paper mat regardless of the availability of an online version, I'm absolutely glad we have "printed cards and such". You might see it as a backward step, but I see it as customer care when it comes to not being prepared to take a forward step. Don't complain because they're still watching out for us.
I fail to see where your thoughts have lead you to believe that Insider will become a giant message board or advertising outlet. Seriously, where'd those rampant thoughts come from?
I'd like to hear more about the status of D&D Insider. Primarily, where it's going, and what has happened to the campaign tools. (if/when do we get them, and why were they postponed to begin with)
But posting on these forums is going to do nothing but start an argument. Contacting customer service would have been useful. This, not.
All your long and drawn out post has done is expressed concern in the simple issues, irrational concern at non-issues, and some stupid sense of (possibly unintentional) elitism because of how much a part of your life D&D has been.
No, just no.
I hate to begin my response this way, but you should be ashamed of perpetuation such stereotypes by mentioning them in the first place. If it's anyone that knows D&D players aren't like this, it's WotC themselves. That part of your post was both completely useless and insulting.I feel a bit miffed at the idea that you are already starting a trend to raise the subscription whenever you add a new feature (or a proposed possible new feature)
No, just no.
Wow I think you need to reformat your post. It looks really bad.
I beg to differ.... from the mouth of WotC.
please refer to time code 7:15 on this YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs&feature=related
Indeed my friend, and I urge people to look at the 3rd part in that video series to see how they advertised the VTT and visualizer. They didn't say these products may be available, the statement was "these are the applications that DDI subscribers WILL have access to."
I have to admit: that was a helpful translation. Thank you for that. However, I'm still not clear what at all this has to do with the topic at hand...
The poster I responded to for that had a comparison between the DDi broken promises and the FUBAR that is Vista. He mentioned, and got wrong, the reasons for the exclusion for the new filing system that ended up not being in Vista.
I agree with the OP on this, what was advertised and what was gotten are two very different things.
I think the DDi will have the features eventually, but it won't come all at once.
However, many of us predicted this from the start. WotC sucks at the tech stuff. Maybe something like the game table IS simply too expensive and difficult for a company like them to deliver on, but hell they can't even make a decent web site.
I won't be giving them my money for DDi anytime soon.
I do think that it is funny the OP mentions Microsoft. That is a company that has failed to deliver either features or quality OR BOTH on every single operating system they have developed in the past 17 years. NOT ONCE has ANY of their OS's lived up to their claims, yet people keep buying because of either an imaginary lack of choice or some bizarre form of stockholm syndrome.
Until Direct X becomes fair use or able to be licensed out to other OS's, that is the way it will be. Microsoft has a Monopoly, sanctioned by the US Congress.
Hasbro, on the other hand, has a software department, and should have at least hired someone that knew how much of a big project this actually was. Now I admit, Hasbro's track record isn't very good either, but at least their games actually did what they were made to do.
They're understaffed, and likely underfunded. But that's not the same excuse it once was. I don't think any of us expect perfection, but WotC has a track record of not releasing something until it does all the things they can think of at the moment. With MTG, this often meant that while releases had a lot of fixes for problems, they took quite a while to fix an actual given issue, or add whatever functionality.
With DDi, there's a lot of things they can do towards making it better. I'll suggest a few really easy ones.
1. As previously mentioned, codes in the hardcover books that let you get digital copies. However, rather then having a 'code you can enter anywhere', tether it to your WotC account- when you buy a book it has one of those peel-back code things. You peel it off, log on, go to the 'My Books' section of the user CP, and enter the code. Then, working exactly like how DDi handles PDFs, it connects you to a digital copy of your material, replete with updates and whatnot.
2. Take MTGO, and make it into a D&D program. Seriously, I know it'd be a lot of coding, but the engine behind it handles multiplayer extremely well and basically amounts to 'graphical interface that follows all the mechanics and the like'- I'd love to see this taken and have the MTG stuff replaced with D&D stuff, resulting in a program that works like the VTT might have.
Even if it's only for a small thing and not the big dungeon builder thing, it'd be something we all would like to see. Even if it's just something you fiddle with on the backburner.
3. I made a suggestion for custom elements in the character builder feedback section, but I think it's worthy of being repeated here. Basically you'd have a standalone program that would be released through either DDi or something else that would let people design their own game elements- be they powers, feats, weapons, weapon properties, or standing game rule modifications.
This program would then output them in a form that the character builder and other utilities would recognize, enabling you to factor them in during your design of characters or NPCs or other stuff.
More stuff when I thinks of it.
Third – If I offended any basement dwelling, pizzeria working, gamers out there, I apologize. If it makes you happy, and you have enough for your needs, I think that is great. I’ve been there.. I’ve done it all, bussed tables at a Mexican restaurant, worked security, worked as a bouncer, a repo-man, a foster care big brother. I’ve done a lot of jobs that aren’t going to make me rich… heck, I’m a teacher, I’m not going to get rich that way, but it’s what I want to do, so I understand doing what makes you happy.. Believe me. I brought up the stereotype, because it is sometimes all too real. Go to any convention and you’ll see it. Hey, I love my non-deodorant wearing brothers-in-arms, but I was trying to make a point to WotC that even game designers sometime get a warped sense of who they are writing games for, because they often see the stereotype (that I’m fairly certain) approaches them by email, message board, or smell. I don’t think they always remember that there are plenty of 30-40 year old professionals out there that are still playing D&D and promoting it in the community. That is why I run an afterschool games club, to help promote the next generation of gamers, and to show them that there is more to gamer life than Halo.
Bussing tables because it "meets their needs". If you've ever 'been there', you know nobody does that. That's condescending and it just goes downhill from there.
Count me in among the offended (even if I'm another one of those a 40-year old professionasl out there still playing D&D and promoting it in the community.) I didn't get there over night and I take exception to the notion that anyone who isn't quite there (yet) is associated with being a stinky loser (and having the balls to call them 'brother in arms'). I take exception with the idea that these people have 'settled' for less somehow. I honestly don't believe you've 'done it all'.
Nothing personal (and maybe I'm out of line) but I just had to get that off my chest.
Bussing tables because it "meets their needs". If you've ever 'been there', you know nobody does that. That's condescending and it just goes downhill from there.
Count me in among the offended (even if I'm another one of those a 40-year old professionasl out there still playing D&D and promoting it in the community.) I didn't get there over night and I take exception to the notion that anyone who isn't quite there (yet) is associated with being a stinky loser (and having the balls to call them 'brother in arms'). I take exception with the idea that these people have 'settled' for less somehow. I honestly don't believe you've 'done it all'.
Nothing personal (and maybe I'm out of line) but I just had to get that off my chest.
Well I've had crap jobs all my life. I really don't recall a single instant that I was satisfied with my crap job. I am however not offended. I understand where they are coming from.
I've done it twice, and it worked. Next time I saw them they looked really good.
Believe me, they oftentimes don't realize how offensive they are.
Sorry for being off-topic.
BTW, if you ever meet a non-deodorant wearing unkempt basement gamer, send this person a polite email or have a short conversation, if he could please shave, shower, change his shirt, go to the barber.
I've done it twice, and it worked. Next time I saw them they looked really good.
Believe me, they oftentimes don't realize how offensive they are.
Sorry for being off-topic.
Sometimes it is medically related and there is nothing they can do. I've had a few friends I "had a talk with" and they told me about it.
And I don't even care if we get the Dungeon Builder. I just want to candidly hear why not.
The screens we saw when I subscribed in November are misleading. They show a nearly finished project, and if these screens are not a fabrication, then what the heck is up?
They got the program to run. But they didn't get it to network properly.
They got the program to run. But they didn't get it to network properly.
I thought that it was that they got it to run, but it crashed semi-frequently and they haven't integrated the ability to download updates yet.
The screens we saw when I subscribed in November are misleading. They show a nearly finished project, and if these screens are not a fabrication, then what the heck is up?
And I don't even care if we get the Dungeon Builder. I just want to candidly hear why not.
They got the program to run. But they didn't get it to network properly.
I thought that it was that they got it to run, but it crashed semi-frequently and they haven't integrated the ability to download updates yet.
Ok lets clear this up before it becomes a rumor mill. They never released why they didn't release it. There was a minor legal issue with a cease and desist order from FGII for using the images of their dice within the demo of the program. Supposedly this was cleared up. I don't know for sure. Other than that it is said that the employees of WotC actually use the program on their computers to play, but other than that there is no news about why it hasn't been released only rumors.
Ok lets clear this up before it becomes a rumor mill. They never released why they didn't release it. There was a minor legal issue with a cease and desist order from FGII for using the images of their dice within the demo of the program. Supposedly this was cleared up. I don't know for sure. Other than that it is said that the employees of WotC actually use the program on their computers to play, but other than that there is no news about why it hasn't been released only rumors.
Ok if you are going to "clear things up" at least make sure your facts are straight. The FGII dice image were not in the demo. They were in a mock up image for internal use only that got accidently released to the public. The issue was cleared up and that is not what is holding the Game Table up.
Now I do know for sure that there was at least one case of a D&Di application crashing during a con demo(it was either the Game Table or Character Visualizer). I also know that a WotC staff member mentioned that the update functionality was one of the last things being added. Now what the latest status on these two issues is, I dunno but they were issues a little bit over half a year ago.
Ok if you are going to "clear things up" at least make sure your facts are straight. The FGII dice image were not in the demo. They were in a mock up image for internal use only that got accidently released to the public. The issue was cleared up and that is not what is holding the Game Table up.
Now I do know for sure that there was at least one case of a D&Di application crashing during a con demo(it was either the Game Table or Character Visualizer). I also know that a WotC staff member mentioned that the update functionality was one of the last things being added. Now what the latest status on these two issues is, I dunno but they were issues a little bit over half a year ago.
Uh, I believe I said it was cleared up. They were released in the demo expo'ed at GenCon. The demo was for internal use and got released in GenCon and someone put it on youtube. From there the FGII people saw it and started the cease and desist. WotC stopped showing the demo and recanted. That was the end of it. YOU need to get your facts straight.
The Game Table or VTT and the Character Visualizer or CV are no longer scheduled to be released. They have some kind of "set to the side" thing going, but that generally (in most software companies) means that the project is scrapped. Now I'm not saying that they will never release it, but it ain't gonna happen this year and probably won't happen next year. If I was a betting man, which I'm not, I'd bet they will eventually just drop the programs altogether.
And as to there being issues 1/2 a year ago. They told us the table was in beta testing at the release of D&D4E. Look how longs its been, no one betas that long not even Microsoft.
Uh, I believe I said it was cleared up. They were released in the demo expo'ed at GenCon. The demo was for internal use and got released in GenCon and someone put it on youtube. From there the FGII people saw it and started the cease and desist. WotC stopped showing the demo and recanted. That was the end of it. YOU need to get your facts straight.
The Game Table or VTT and the Character Visualizer or CV are no longer scheduled to be released. They have some kind of "set to the side" thing going, but that generally (in most software companies) means that the project is scrapped. Now I'm not saying that they will never release it, but it ain't gonna happen this year and probably won't happen next year. If I was a betting man, which I'm not, I'd bet they will eventually just drop the programs altogether.
And as to there being issues 1/2 a year ago. They told us the table was in beta testing at the release of D&D4E. Look how longs its been, no one betas that long not even Microsoft.
It wasn't the video or demo that the problem it was a single screen shot that was posted on WotC web site at the time.
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/misc/infringement.html (copies of the image)
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043881 (thread where two WotC employees explained the situation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWZ2WdeTo1M (a video the Game Table shown at a con which includes use of the die from 1:36-1:44, which looks nothing like the image in the Fantasy Grounds image)
And to the best of my recollection, they might have said that the Game Table was in alpha testing(at best) back around August or September of last year. They were not anywhere near beta testing.
I have to admit the bindings issue was only with my copy of the Arcane Power book; other than that I had no other issues. Others in my group have the issues with their PHB and other books.
The ink?? it is with every book!!! Why? With the price we are paying for the book why you have to use soy/seaweed ink? Being green isn't what I want when it comes to a book you chopped how many trees to make?
They got the program to run. But they didn't get it to network properly.
Just use Hamachi.
It wasn't the video or demo that the problem it was a single screen shot that was posted on WotC web site at the time.
http://www.fantasygrounds.com/misc/infringement.html (copies of the image)
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1043881 (thread where two WotC employees explained the situation)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWZ2WdeTo1M (a video the Game Table shown at a con which includes use of the die from 1:36-1:44, which looks nothing like the image in the Fantasy Grounds image)
And to the best of my recollection, they might have said that the Game Table was in alpha testing(at best) back around August or September of last year. They were not anywhere near beta testing.
That's not the original video I'm talking about. The one I'm talking about has two guys, a podium, and a big screen behind them showing the video of the game table. the screen shot was from that demo, not the one you linked to.
Oh, and until you post a link where WotC says the delay is from "network" problems then its more than network problems keeping it delayed.
Wizards expected to make these apps and then have them plug in to work with one another. I think that the problems started when this simply did not happen.
You know when you go to a restaurant and see all that food, and end up getting more than you can eat? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach. That is what happened here, to much for Wizards to do in a short development time.
My Guess?
Wizards expected to make these apps and then have them plug in to work with one another. I think that the problems started when this simply did not happen.
You know when you go to a restaurant and see all that food, and end up getting more than you can eat? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach. That is what happened here, to much for Wizards to do in a short development time.
Not to be rude or downplay your post but, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am not looking for opinion, I'm looking for facts. Why was it delayed then scrapped.
Short development time? what are you talking about they've had years to do this. Even a single programmer that was even slightly competent could pull this off in that much time. It's not like they are building NWN or something they are building a few low end tools and a cool 3D mini table. I mean seriously why does everyone feel the need to defend WotC when they don't defend themselves?
Now they have "focused" on doing one app at a time afterward. The scrapping of Gleemax was a needed change, then they go and fire a lot of people instead of switching their focus to the DDi, or even having a decent web page.
You thought that was defending them? Wow.
I think they had less than a year, more like 6 to 9 months, before the release of this new edition to get the whole "Digital Initiative" done.
Now they have "focused" on doing one app at a time afterward. The scrapping of Gleemax was a needed change, then they go and fire a lot of people instead of switching their focus to the DDi, or even having a decent web page.
You thought that was defending them? Wow.
That's not what you said before, and yes you are trying to justify their failure, and with, might I add, rumor and opinion. I want facts not opinions.
That's not the original video I'm talking about. The one I'm talking about has two guys, a podium, and a big screen behind them showing the video of the game table. the screen shot was from that demo, not the one you linked to.
Oh, and until you post a link where WotC says the delay is from "network" problems then its more than network problems keeping it delayed.
....You mean this video? The one that is pretty much exactly the same?
And I never made a claim that it was being delayed because of networking issues, so I'm not going to go looking around to try and find a link that supports that argument.
Short development time? what are you talking about they've had years to do this. Even a single programmer that was even slightly competent could pull this off in that much time. It's not like they are building NWN or something they are building a few low end tools and a cool 3D mini table. I mean seriously why does everyone feel the need to defend WotC when they don't defend themselves?
Hahaha. A single programmer could pull D&Di off in several years? I'll give you a few of the applications yes, but most certainly not all of them(well I'm assuming that we are talking about fully functional applications that have relatively few bugs and none of those critical). I say this as a fairly competent trained programmer. Anyways all that aside, they did not have a few years. I forgot the exact time frame, and I really really don't feel like trying to find it, but I know that they only had around a year tops to make the things.
I want facts not opinions.
Which is why you are making stuff up without double checking the facts, implying that events completely unrelated are related, and questioning the intent of posters who disagree with you? If you want the facts then dig through all of the messages that have been posted in D&Di forum in the past half year or so. There's a decent amount of info there, it just is that it is so scattered that it is hard to piece it all together.
That's not what you said before, and yes you are trying to justify their failure, and with, might I add, rumor and opinion. I want facts not opinions.
Two short posts, and nothing in them contradicts the other in any way. Their failure was more than simply dropping projects. It was the short sighted way that they had begun this debacle, and the lack of proper man power to finish it within the short time they had to do it in. The lapse of the E-Tools license (from CMP) along with the cancellation of the physical mags on the news stand was also ill advised.
E-Tools was also another example of how Wizards hasn't had a good history in the electronic media field. Fluid made a mess, and CMP did all they could to straighten it out.
As my sister always says, "Don't buy beer in a town who's chief export is mohair!"
Perhaps this is because in my experience with software companies in my personal life and IT career, I've seen over and over that most software is released late, lacking features, and with just enough bugs solved that the company hopes it isn't a total failure before an update can be released. I've seen this be true for games, commercial business software, web browsers, databases, etc. You don't want to know the state of the IT tools your major bank uses - you won't be able to sleep until your savings are under the bed in a jar!
What does this have to do with WotC? Well, I just hope they've learned from their mistakes, and do two things in the future:
1. hire a company that makes good software already to make your software if you want it made well and in a reasonable amount of time.
2. have software nearly into testing before you announce it and make promises!
You don't want to know the state of the IT tools your major bank uses - you won't be able to sleep until your savings are under the bed in a jar!
I have seen Office Space. I already know...
What does this have to do with WotC? Well, I just hope they've learned from their mistakes, and do two things in the future:
1. hire a company that makes good software already to make your software if you want it made well and in a reasonable amount of time.
2. have software nearly into testing before you announce it and make promises!
Part of 1 is the license or use of an "engine" for the graphics, like the Unreal or Lithtech engines. There is no reason to do this from scratch in this day and age. Number two rarely gets done nowadays, by any company other than Blizzard.
....You mean this video? The one that is pretty much exactly the same?
And I never made a claim that it was being delayed because of networking issues, so I'm not going to go looking around to try and find a link that supports that argument.
Then what are you referring to in the video? (To help keep a clear and coherent idea of what is going on please quote the relevant phrases)
Hahaha. A single programmer could pull D&Di off in several years? I'll give you a few of the applications yes, but most certainly not all of them(well I'm assuming that we are talking about fully functional applications that have relatively few bugs and none of those critical). I say this as a fairly competent trained programmer. Anyways all that aside, they did not have a few years. I forgot the exact time frame, and I really really don't feel like trying to find it, but I know that they only had around a year tops to make the things.
They had six months or more before the release of D&D4E and about what 2 years since before they finally pulled the plug? Two and a half years? I could have done it in my free time by then. If you don't believe check this video out Merc Roid I made this game using a 3rd party graphics engine and I was able to cobble it together in just a few months, not even a tenth of the time they had (this was also using substandard tools and a really badly ported 3D engine). It would be exceptionally easy for an experienced programmer working 30-40 hours a week for about 2 years to make the CB, VTT, and Visualizer. Now it might take 3-4 artists working at the same pace to fill it out with artwork, but the program would have been done easy in that time.
Which is why you are making stuff up without double checking the facts, implying that events completely unrelated are related, and questioning the intent of posters who disagree with you? If you want the facts then dig through all of the messages that have been posted in D&Di forum in the past half year or so. There's a decent amount of info there, it just is that it is so scattered that it is hard to piece it all together.
On the programming side I am a game programmer this kind of stuff squarely falls in my field of expertise. Other than the comments on programming I have only been asking for people to post links and quotes. I have never said they were not telling the truth only that they need to find a quote to back it up.
I can't help but feel all this rage over DDI is a little...well, naive. WotC is a company that publishes game books and cards, and that is something they do pretty well. That is what I expect of them. I do not expect WotC to become an efficient software development and production company, no matter what they themselves say. Especially not in just a few years.
As my sister always says, "Don't buy beer in a town who's chief export is mohair!"
Perhaps this is because in my experience with software companies in my personal life and IT career, I've seen over and over that most software is released late, lacking features, and with just enough bugs solved that the company hopes it isn't a total failure before an update can be released. I've seen this be true for games, commercial business software, web browsers, databases, etc. You don't want to know the state of the IT tools your major bank uses - you won't be able to sleep until your savings are under the bed in a jar!
What does this have to do with WotC? Well, I just hope they've learned from their mistakes, and do two things in the future:
1. hire a company that makes good software already to make your software if you want it made well and in a reasonable amount of time.
2. have software nearly into testing before you announce it and make promises!
I agree we should never expect a responsible company to do anything outside its field even if they promise it ahead of time and hire an outside company to do it.
I expect there to be bugs in it. That is why I want the things released. Even if they only do it as a pre-alpha test to a select few D&DI subscribers. I'd volunteer.
I'm a programmer, I already know the state of most of the software I use. I can spot bugs in them that make me suspect even greater bugs, spaghetti code, and almost no planning ahead, but that is to be expected in cases like this.
1. I agree completely.
2. I think this is how it should be, but upper management/Hasbro wouldn't let it happen.
Two short posts, and nothing in them contradicts the other in any way. Their failure was more than simply dropping projects. It was the short sighted way that they had begun this debacle, and the lack of proper man power to finish it within the short time they had to do it in. The lapse of the E-Tools license (from CMP) along with the cancellation of the physical mags on the news stand was also ill advised.
E-Tools was also another example of how Wizards hasn't had a good history in the electronic media field. Fluid made a mess, and CMP did all they could to straighten it out.
I tend to agree with your sentiments. Here's the thing though we actually don't know what happened. It could have been Hasbro that said it didn't make enough money. It could have been that someone died and it ground the project to a halt (wouldn't happen with programmers that properly document their code and update their UML's and design docs). We just don't know what happened. For all we know it might be held up because there are 2-3 minor bugs that someone in charge doesn't like, that would require a rewrite of the entire program. The fact is we just don't know.
I have seen Office Space. I already know...
Part of 1 is the license or use of an "engine" for the graphics, like the Unreal or Lithtech engines. There is no reason to do this from scratch in this day and age. Number two rarely gets done nowadays, by any company other than Blizzard.
I completely agree once they get the groundwork something free like Ogre3D or Irrlicht engine would be easy to use and portable to other platforms like Mac and Linux.
Then what are you referring to in the video? (To help keep a clear and coherent idea of what is going on please quote the relevant phrases)
You said that the image was taken from a video of two guys in front of a podeum talking and not the video that I previously linked to. So this is the video of two guys in front of a podeium that I'm assuming you are talking about. You can see the die roller in the video from 1:34-143. You can clearly see that the image was not taken from that video and it is in fact the exact same presentation that I linked to before.
They had six months or more before the release of D&D4E and about what 2 years since before they finally pulled the plug? Two and a half years? I could have done it in my free time by then. If you don't believe check this video out Merc Roid I made this game using a 3rd party graphics engine and I was able to cobble it together in just a few months, not even a tenth of the time they had (this was also using substandard tools and a really badly ported 3D engine). It would be exceptionally easy for an experienced programmer working 30-40 hours a week for about 2 years to make the CB, VTT, and Visualizer. Now it might take 3-4 artists working at the same pace to fill it out with artwork, but the program would have been done easy in that time.
Assuming they started in the January before 4th's release, it has only been a year and a half. They stopped working on a while ago though, so the entirity of that year and half has not been spent working on the game table. It would appear that they put the Game Table on the back burner arounf October of last year, and instead have been dedicating their time to removing bugs in the Compendium & Character Builder and to the Campaign Tools once they were satisfied with those.
You said that the image was taken from a video of two guys in front of a podeum talking and not the video that I previously linked to. So this is the video of two guys in front of a podeium that I'm assuming you are talking about. You can see the die roller in the video from 1:34-143. You can clearly see that the image was not taken from that video and it is in fact the exact same presentation that I linked to before.
I'll concede this point to you. It was my understanding that the dice were in the demo, but it appears I was wrong. You were right on this one.
Assuming they started in the January before 4th's release, it has only been a year and a half. They stopped working on a while ago though, so the entirity of that year and half has not been spent working on the game table. It would appear that they put the Game Table on the back burner arounf October of last year, and instead have been dedicating their time to removing bugs in the Compendium & Character Builder and to the Campaign Tools once they were satisfied with those.
Well see there's the problem right there. We are assuming things. We're guessing when they started and when they stopped. If they worked on it for one and a half years that should have been plenty of time to get it done. If they only worked on it for nine months it should not have been dropped because nine months is not enough time to get the CB, VTT, and CV finished.
Um. they haven't released the campaign tools.
I tend to agree with your sentiments. Here's the thing though we actually don't know what happened. It could have been Hasbro that said it didn't make enough money. It could have been that someone died and it ground the project to a halt (wouldn't happen with programmers that properly document their code and update their UML's and design docs). We just don't know what happened. For all we know it might be held up because there are 2-3 minor bugs that someone in charge doesn't like, that would require a rewrite of the entire program. The fact is we just don't know.
We will never know this. The only thing we will see is the result of the background troubles or, in the future, the renewed dedication and development.
What we saw thus far leads to the "guesses" that I and other posters here have put forth, though some of those are "educated guesses" or "kinda confirmed" from elusive sources, be it from former employees, or those few posts that let a little info slip.
The answer your seeking is something that is already answered. paraphrasing here..."The Visualizer and the Table Top App are on the back burner for now, but we will get back to them eventually."
I have another way to put it....
"Coming "When it's done" " DNF team
We will never know this. The only thing we will see is the result of the background troubles or, in the future, the renewed dedication and development.
What we saw thus far leads to the "guesses" that I and other posters here have put forth, though some of those are "educated guesses" or "kinda confirmed" from elusive sources, be it from former employees, or those few posts that let a little info slip.
The answer your seeking is something that is already answered. paraphrasing here..."The Visualizer and the Table Top App are on the back burner for now, but we will get back to them eventually."
I have another way to put it....
"Coming "When it's done" " DNF team
I'd like to just say that the the whole "The Visualizer and the Table Top App are on the back burner for now, but we will get back to them eventually." In corporate speak means "We are working on something else, and as soon as you are distracted we will silently drop the Visualizer and Table Top App permanently".
I like to believe that it is more like "OMG, this is hard. Let's just get the Character Generator out and make up some DM tools, then get back to this after that."
Well, what you would like to believe and what is common practice is two different things.
The only way they aren't going to get away with not working on the VTT is if we continue to talk about it and bring it up in the forums. That way they will know we want it. They won't be able to drop it.
Well, what you would like to believe and what is common practice is two different things.
The only way they aren't going to get away with not working on the VTT is if we continue to talk about it and bring it up in the forums. That way they will know we want it. They won't be able to drop it.
It is talked about in the forums, over in the DDi forums where staff members drop in occasionally to report on the progress they are making on the projects they are working on. These future releases forums are mainly for us to discuss, well... future releases.
And for someone who wants facts not excuses, you certainly don't present any as far as why the DDi features are not being worked on, you just decided that they gave up and moved on, no matter what anyone else says, quoted or not.
Not exactly the way to encourage people to take up your point of view, is it?
Oh and in case you didn't know the DDi forums are further down the page.
Bel
I beg to differ.... from the mouth of WotC.
please refer to time code 7:15 on this YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcgiSs&feature=related
Well, that would be where "to my knowledge" came in. I guess you got me.
Are you really that upset that you get the information in the Compendium without having to type in a code to prove you own the books?
Well, what you would like to believe and what is common practice is two different things.
See, that is part of the problem. Wizards has never followed what would be considered common practice, but has instead struck out on its own and miscalculated every electronic product they have ever been involved directly in. This includes the elusive (The TSR developed) 2nd edition character generator, "Master Tools," E-Tools and the current DDi. They did better when they licensed out the brand to competent software developers who made games that actually worked. There were missteps, like Icewind Dale, but mostly the games fared much better than what was done with the electronic aids that were "official."
-- paste --
Wizards of the Coast, Inc. announced today that the planned beta release of D&D Insider kicks off with the switch to 4th Edition content for the Dragon and Dungeon online magazines, set to coincide with the launch of D&D 4th Edition. The planned beta period is free, and in addition to the online magazines the beta will include the first iteration of the D&D Rules Compendium, an online resource for players and Dungeon Masters of the world’s greatest fantasy roleplaying game. Other D&D Insider components will roll out as they become available.
"We’re extremely excited to have both analog and digital components come together for D&D 4th Edition," said Scott Rouse, Senior Brand Manager for D&D. "Through the free beta period, we encourage fans to help us make improvements to the suite of digital components offered through D&D Insider."
The client-based applications, including the D&D Character Builder and D&D Game Table, will not be part of the initial beta release period, but will be added as they become available.
After the initial beta period concludes, Wizards of the Coast will offer a special introductory price for a limited time. "When the special introductory price period comes to an end, the regular price of $14.95 per month for the entire suite of components goes into effect," said Rouse. "And, as we’ve previously announced, there will be discounts based on longer subscription commitments."
-- end of paste --
No. Thanks.
Isn't that what this thread is about. The Vapor ware theory vs back burner will come out hope?
Well, there's your error. It's all vaporware until it's released.
So every program ever produced is Vapor Ware (TM) from the very first day until the day it is on the market?
I would understand calling Duke Nukem Forever (tm) vaporware, but the DDi apps in question have not been in development hell, they simply were underfunded. With the Character Generator out, I expect the others will follow in due course.
It is talked about in the forums, over in the DDi forums where staff members drop in occasionally to report on the progress they are making on the projects they are working on. These future releases forums are mainly for us to discuss, well... future releases.
And for someone who wants facts not excuses, you certainly don't present any as far as why the DDi features are not being worked on, you just decided that they gave up and moved on, no matter what anyone else says, quoted or not.
Not exactly the way to encourage people to take up your point of view, is it?
Oh and in case you didn't know the DDi forums are further down the page.
Bel
And the VTT is not going to be a future release? So you are agreeing with me that "on the back burner" means it will never come out?
The reason I haven't provided any facts is because WotC hasn't provided any themselves. I also don't mask my personal opinion as fact like so many other posters.
Also "on the back burner" is industry standard talk for "abandoned" and "will never come out", when they made those statements it is generally acknowledged by the software industry at large that they will now never be released barring some miracle.
See, that is part of the problem. Wizards has never followed what would be considered common practice, but has instead struck out on its own and miscalculated every electronic product they have ever been involved directly in. This includes the elusive (The TSR developed) 2nd edition character generator, "Master Tools," E-Tools and the current DDi. They did better when they licensed out the brand to competent software developers who made games that actually worked. There were missteps, like Icewind Dale, but mostly the games fared much better than what was done with the electronic aids that were "official."
I agree with you (except for Icewind Dale); However, I, like many others did not know that WotC has a track record for not releasing software based products or releasing buggy unusable products. If I had known that, I would not have bought into it and stayed with my core 3.5 books and not wasted my money on a dumbed down MMO copycat game like 4E that cost me over $100.
*snicker*
So every program ever produced is Vapor Ware (TM) from the very first day until the day it is on the market?
I would understand calling Duke Nukem Forever (tm) vaporware, but the DDi apps in question have not been in development hell, they simply were underfunded. With the Character Generator out, I expect the others will follow in due course.
No, every program that is one and a half years late and is now "on the back burner" is vaporware.
I don't know what you'd call development ****, but being one and a half plus years late and having crash bugs would count for me.
And the VTT is not going to be a future release? So you are agreeing with me that "on the back burner" means it will never come out?
Future Releases is implicitly for future products, and D&DI is not a future product, it's a current one -- and a very specific one, with its own forum, at that.
I also don't mask my personal opinion as fact like so many other posters.
This is an example of an ironic statement.
I'd like to just say that the the whole "The Visualizer and the Table Top App are on the back burner for now, but we will get back to them eventually." In corporate speak means "We are working on something else, and as soon as you are distracted we will silently drop the Visualizer and Table Top App permanently".Even a single programmer that was even slightly competent could pull this off in that much time. It's not like they are building NWN or something they are building a few low end tools and a cool 3D mini table.
Some facts!
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Future Releases is implicitly for future products, and D&DI is not a future product, it's a current one -- and a very specific one, with its own forum, at that.
This is an example of an ironic statement.
Some facts!
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say with those quotes. If you stick your head outside the WotC forums and into any of the IT or software ones you will see that those are indeed facts.
I also AM a trained and experienced programmer, but if you don't believe me go to a programmer forum and ask for some estimates. Don't tell them its D&DI VTT, but describe the features of the D&DI VTT and they will give you similar estimates.