What do we expect from these guys? I'm hoping to work up a Deva Bard. Do we think they will get +2 CHA and WIS? This would make them pretty good for the divine classes we have so far, and they seem reasonably well suited to the Avenger and Invoker classes that are also probably divine, according to that info.
If the ability scores are grouped in this way, will they get +1 Fort or Reflex, a la Warforged? Fort seems flavorful with their "divine body" or whatever.
Skill bonuses I would expect are Diplomacy and Religion.
Will they have a racial power, and will anything mirror the tiefling? Maybe they get +1 to attack unless they are bloodied, or they get a racial power that preemptively ups their defense instead of doing damage after being hit. I recall seeing a homebrew Aasimar that had something good along these lines, but I couldn't find it with search.
Your thoughts and hopes for this class? What will the core fluff background be?
devaasimar (also, firefox claims thats a word...
*Tries it.*
What's wrong with your Firefox? Because mine doesn't claim that is a word... Though, I agree that it should be. :D
*Tries it.*
What's wrong with your Firefox? Because mine doesn't claim that is a word... Though, I agree that it should be. :D
I just realized I've seen Aasimar misspelled so many times, I was starting to think it was spelled "Assimar".
Do we think they will get +2 CHA and WIS?
I think they might get +2 Str, +2 Wis because that's similar to the 2e Aasimar which got +1 str, +1 wis, -2 con. After all the tiefling's +2 int, +2 cha is similar to the 2e's tiefling's +1 int, +1 cha, -1 str, -1 wis.
And Deva's weren't mentioned as one of the classes that favoured the bard. Half-Elves, Gnomes and Tieflings were.
Dragonborn - Str, Cha
Dwarf - Con, Wis
Eladrin - Dex, Int
Elf - Dex, Wis
Half-elf - Con, Cha
Halfling - Dex, Cha
Human - any
Tiefling - Int, Cha
Now our PHB2 list:
Goliath - assumed Str, Con
Gnome - MM gives Int, Cha
Half-Orc - subject to a lot of debate, but hard to imagine without a physical ability, maybe Str
Shifter - Str or Dex (longtooth and razorclaw), Wis
Deva - ?
I have to doubt Deva have a Strength bonus, though only one PHB1 race had it, I am fairly sure that three of the five PHB2 races already have one, and Str and Wis in particular conflict with the Longtooth Shifter. Of course it's not impossible that there is repetition, but I'm going to assume there isn't.
Interestingly, another ability combination we haven't seen yet works pretty well for Deva: +2 Int, +2 Wis. I would think Cha works better if they are supposed to be beautiful glowy people, just throwing out the possibility.
With two Deva characters shown as (assumed) divine classes, and Wis and Cha both important to the paladin and cleric, I would be willing to bet on at least a Wis bonus.
It doesn't matter if they're not excellent bards, the concept I have is to pair up with a tiefling fighter anyway :P
This screams to me a automatic trained History skill for each Deva. I'm sure they will have a encounter power that gives a Damage reduction for one turn equal to a ability score mod.
The two bonus ability scores I can't figure out.......maybe make them really good clerics and give them +2 str and +2 wis?
page #21 in the FRPG says....For almost four thousand years, each Deva has been incarnated again and again in the world of Toril.
This screams to me a automatic trained History skill for each Deva. I'm sure they will have a encounter power that gives a Damage reduction for one turn equal to a ability score mod.
The two bonus ability scores I can't figure out.......maybe make them really good clerics and give them +2 str and +2 wis?
I just wanna throw in that we don't need every second race to have a Strength bonus. My preference would be +2 Wis and +2 Cha, and a +1 racial bonus to Fortitude defenses.
off topic but i thin goliath will be +2 str, +2 wis. i have nothing to back that up. its just a hunch.
I think you're right, and I think I've seen this speculation tossed around before, which means other folks are thinkin' it too. At any rate, it makes sense!
If they're changing the race name, they might as well change how it looks/feels like, so I see no point comparing them to Aasimar anymore.
I agree they should have some sort of Fortitude boost, but that would depend on how strong it is on average, for what it's intended. Maybe they get bonuses to specific defenses while bloodied? (To counter balance the Tiefling bonus to attacks against bloodied foes).
I also agree that since it's not mentioned they make good Bards, they probably don't get a bonus to Cha. They both will come on the same book, and it would be obvious to make one work with the other if that was the case.
They should also have something that somehow interacts with Radiant damage, maybe some encounter power that does something, or maybe some Resist radiant, maybe both. Although I don't think that Resist Radiant in the hands of a player character is all that good.
Well they don't come right out and say it but based on her story in the latest Dungeon article it looks like Amyria the Scion of Bahamut is a deva. Her attacks do radiant and she seems to be a paladin. Of note is this:
they will be beings born in the astral sea who are somehow bound to mortal form and go through a cycle of life, death, and reincarnation.
Do they remember their previous lives? If yes, is there any way for a new Deva to be born?
Do they remember their previous lives? If yes, is there any way for a new Deva to be born?
From what I recall in the FR Deva entry, no there can be no new Deva born as the source of the souls of the Deva can no longer be reached. I don't know if they remember their past lives. I also don't know if the limited number aspect will carry over the the main world.
con and wis roll a dwarf
... Why? We have 3 or 4 Str/Con, 2 Dex/Int, 3 Dex/Cha, etc. Overlap of every stat combo is inevitable.
... Why? We have 3 or 4 Str/Con, 2 Dex/Int, 3 Dex/Cha, etc. Overlap of every stat combo is inevitable.
This.
It really puts the onus on WotC to produce unique, interesting races, because the stat bonuses aren't able to be the sole definition of a race anymore.
It also seems highly likely that Memory of A Thousand Lifetimes (free; encounter) will be their racial power.
So what else do we think we'll see (pure speculation at this point)? I'll get things rolling with some ideas I have:
- Possible that the Aura of Recovery is also going to be a ability they get. Similar to how just being close to an elf give allies a bonus to Perception. It would probably only work on non-Deva allies
- +2 to saving throws. If the above is a correct assumption, then it stands to reason that they will get some bonus to saves, just how an Elfs perception synergies with its +1 bonus to allies.
- Speed 6
- Languages: Common, Supernal
- +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Religion
- Vision: Low-light
- Radiant Resistance: Resist radiant 5 + one-half your level
Other thoughts?
page #21 in the FRPG says....For almost four thousand years, each Deva has been incarnated again and again in the world of Toril.
Wait, I think this is in the wrong universe.. it shouldn't be Toril, it should be Gallifrey.
This screams to me a automatic trained History skill for each Deva. I'm sure they will have a encounter power that gives a Damage reduction for one turn equal to a ability score mod.
Sounds like a good call, especially with that potential power they have.
If this is the flavour of the Deva, I think it's pretty cool. But, I now have to have them hunted down by an army of warforged* that scream:
Exterminate. Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!
-or-
Exterminate the Deva!
Is there a magic item or ritual that has a bag of holding type effect on a portable domicile? You know, something with Time And Relative Dimension In Space?
If you don't get that this post a reference to Doctor Who by now, you should be shot. With a hammer.
*Yes I know that Cybermen are closer to warforged in shape, but they're emotionless golems and I don't consider them to be alive really, while the Daleks have a few emotions, anger with a little bit of fear, at least of one particular individual.
As I side note, I was kind of hoping that the Deva would have something akin to a power similar to the the 'voice of god'. A true voice that can destroy the faithless. Would make a nice paragon path at the least, the Metatron paragon path for Deva. Now that would be Awesomer!
1. It hasn't been used yet
2. It would parallel the tieflings' INT/CHA setup
3. It would make them excellent clerics and paladins, which fits thematically. Some of the new divine classes will probably use these stats, too.
One thing I've been wondering is how Deva will look in flavor and appearance. Will they be similar to 3E aasimar, or will they be redesigned as greatly as the tieflings were? Have we recieved any clues about this yet?
Some ideas for "angelic" physical characteristics may be:
- Wings. I don't think the designers would make a winged race (that was able to fly at first level) due to balance issues, though. Deva might have vestigal wings (a set of feathers along the back) that can't actually fly, though.
- Unusual skin/hair/eye colors, like pale skin, silver hair, and golden eyes. The eyes might glow as well.
- A gem in the middle of the forehead, evoking the image of a 'third eye'. This gem might be able to change colors depending on the Deva's mood.
Wait, I think this is in the wrong universe.. it shouldn't be Toril, it should be Gallifrey.
Sounds like a good call, especially with that potential power they have.
If this is the flavour of the Deva, I think it's pretty cool. But, I now have to have them hunted down by an army of warforged* that scream:
Exterminate. Exterminate! EXTERMINATE!
-or-
Exterminate the Deva!
Is there a magic item or ritual that has a bag of holding type effect on a portable domicile? You know, something with Time And Relative Dimension In Space?
If you don't get that this post a reference to Doctor Who by now, you should be shot. With a hammer.
*Yes I know that Cybermen are closer to warforged in shape, but they're emotionless golems and I don't consider them to be alive really, while the Daleks have a few emotions, anger with a little bit of fear, at least of one particular individual.
As I side note, I was kind of hoping that the Deva would have something akin to a power similar to the the 'voice of god'. A true voice that can destroy the faithless. Would make a nice paragon path at the least, the Metatron paragon path for Deva. Now that would be Awesomer!
I sense a comment LOOMing ;)
I'd like to see them get +2 int/wis if for no other reason than that stat combo doesn't exist yet.
orb wizard of doom.
As such, I imagine many Devas have learnt in their travels how to gain information when visiting a new area very easily. Thus Streetwise.
For Ability Bonuses:
+2 Wisdom (they have garnered much wisdom through their travels and past lives).
+2 Charisma (they must learn how to negotiate/deal with various people in their travels and to be able to join causes they believe in easily)
Appearance wise, I would like to see something where they can hide their angelic appearance and only let it be seen occasionally, that or their ability to become a mortal form wasn't complete and their features appear unrefined in some manner.
I'd like to see them get +2 int/wis if for no other reason than that stat combo doesn't exist yet.
That's not a very good reason. :P
That's not a very good reason. :P
Hey I'm not the game designer man, no ones paying me to hear what I think.:P
That's not a very good reason. :P
Well it also avoids the doubling up on defense stats that troubles both Str/Con and Dex/Int races. I don't think it makes sense for the Deva but it'll fit some race somewhere.
Well it also avoids the doubling up on defense stats that troubles both Str/Con and Dex/Int races. I don't think it makes sense for the Deva but it'll fit some race somewhere.
...Jermlaine? :P
...Jermlaine? :P
I could mention Owl-folk, but lots of people don't appreciate anthropomorphic animals.
I could mention Owl-folk, but lots of people don't appreciate anthropomorphic animals.
I've never heard of them. Where are Owlfolk from?...No, I'm not into furries either. (Nor "featheries".)
Well it also avoids the doubling up on defense stats that troubles both Str/Con and Dex/Int races. I don't think it makes sense for the Deva but it'll fit some race somewhere.
Of course INT/WIS will fit some race somewhere. In fact, I even have a homebrew race with that combination. It's just not appropriate for the Deva is all I'm saying, at least not if they're anything like the Aasimar.
That being said, doubling up on stats that affect the same defense is not that big a deal. Lots of races do it. Even the Eladrin, which are in the PHB, do it. It's perfectly acceptable as long as the race also gets a bonus to a second defense like how the Eladrin gets a Will bonus.
Of course INT/WIS will fit some race somewhere. In fact, I even have a homebrew race with that combination. It's just not appropriate for the Deva is all I'm saying, at least not if they're anything like the Aasimar.
That being said, doubling up on stats that affect the same defense is not that big a deal. Lots of races do it. Even the Eladrin, which are in the PHB, do it. It's perfectly acceptable as long as the race also gets a bonus to a second defense like how the Eladrin gets a Will bonus.
Actually assuming that the Deva has the rebirth aspect mentioned in FRPG, I think that an Int/Wis stat bonus does make soem sense. The wisdom would come from the divine essence of their souls while the int would represent the collected knowledge that they are able to recall from their past lives. I'm sure that there are other possible stat combinations that could work, and I don't know if it is the best one. However it is certainly a possibility.
So less of the "I am Mary Sue Jesus! Let us go save puppies together, my faithful companions!" and more "I can remember your great-great-grandmother. I remember how she screamed when the gnolls dragged her from her horse and hacked her to pieces. You have her eyes..."
When you come face to face with a deva for the first time, your first reaction should be one of unease and suspicion, IMO. Who knows what horrors the soul behind those eyes has witnessed over the millennia? Who knows what things that soul might have done, for that matter?
So I really, really, really hope they release some info about the Deva soon. So I can find out if they really do have some fluffl that makes them seem like they are from Gallifrey. I really want that to be the case so I can make a Bravura Warlord called Allon Sy. Or something else if I can get whoever plays the fighter to name their character Allonzo.
Int/Wis would also prevent them from being pigeonholed into divine classes to the exclusion of everything else, which I see as a good thing. And if they're trying to move away from the 'always-lawful-good-angelically-beautiful-glowy-people' stereotype and make them a bit more morally ambiguous, then replacing the Cha bonus with an Int bonus feels right as well.
So less of the "I am Mary Sue Jesus! Let us go save puppies together, my faithful companions!" and more "I can remember your great-great-grandmother. I remember how she screamed when the gnolls dragged her from her horse and hacked her to pieces. You have her eyes..."
When you come face to face with a deva for the first time, your first reaction should be one of unease and suspicion, IMO. Who knows what horrors the soul behind those eyes has witnessed over the millennia? Who knows what things that soul might have done, for that matter?
Cha doesn't always equate with Goodness, remember? Star'locks use Charisma as well. Not only that, but divine powers don't mean goody-goody either. Kind of imagine an emotionally manipulative Cleric of Vecna who charms the secrets from his companions, and then leaves them to die at the right moment, so only their secrets will live on in him. Very good use of Cha and Wis, and still not good at all.
I like the idea of Cha/Wis, but Int/Wis appeals to me as well. We will just have to wait and see.
That's just me though.
The otherworldliness would also be a nice touch. Saving puppies with friends isn't bad (unless of course they are EVIL puppies!
), but it's a bit one-dimensional to hang a character race on.A flight feat or power could be cool too. I can't remember, did 3e aasimars (and tieflings) have wings or am I thinking of half-celestials (and half-fiends)?
I don't know if I will get my wish, but I'm personally hoping for Int/Wis if only because it's more interesting than Wis/Cha.
It also invokes, at least for me, the image of a philosopher. Int/Cha is a charming intellectual (think Hannibal Lecter or Dr. Frasier Crane), Wis/Cha of a fierce and convincing leader type. What I see in Int/Wis is Karlheinz Stockhausen (who was a composer, not a philosopher, though).
Deva weren't mentioned in the bard write up, though neither were dragonborn or halflings, who have the Cha bonus. The deva were somewhat less confirmed at the time of that article also, so they could well have Cha, but with the info we have right now it looks to me like Int/Wis with the +1d6 to any d20 roll encounter power are good bets.
Since aasimar are my favorite race I really hope they pull them off right (since at this point unless they also do half-angels, it looks like they are going to be the closest thing to aasimar), but I'm still skeptical and there's still a lot about earlier editions of D&D I prefer anyhow.
I like Doctor Who and the similarity there seems to be between the two so far (probably coincidental but who knows...no pun intended). However I hope that finally they also make them a bit more interesting in how they are portrayed in the art than in earlier editions, but I'm very skeptical that their look will be improved.
One thing I liked about the aasimar is that they could look just about however one wanted them to, but the problem was that the art didn't really back this up, they almost always looked like pretty much normal humans, or even half-elves in the art, and I think at least some members of the race need have a very distinctive notably inhuman look.
While I'd rather far more diversity, and the lack of it in the new tieflings really irks me if they have to have a consistent look, I hope they have an avian theme (just like the tiefling have the horned animal/reptile theme to their look), which with the whole reincarnation (think a phoenix) would be really appropriate, plus make their celestial nature more clear.
As far as the backstory, perhaps it will involve the race making some great sacrifice that leads to them becoming trapped in the cycle of reincarnation, or maybe it will be a fall of grace of sorts, but hopefully if this is the case there will still be a heroic element (for example they commited some great sin, but it was out of love, or to stop some much greater evil from occuring). Either way it should be tragic and heroic.
There is also an Astral Majesty ability giving him +1 defense vs attacks of bloodied creatures, the oft-speculated reverse Bloodhunt to mirror tieflings' +1 against bloodied creatures. His highest abilities are Wis, Str, and Int, but who knows.
We've pretty much known the Deva will be in PHB2 for a while, and the info today confirms that. According to the Realms guide, Deva are the Aasimar renamed.
Your thoughts and hopes for this class? What will the core fluff background be?
That's funny as I remember Wizards saying something about it being hard to make a race like Aasimar cool.
I'm not really sure what to hope for or expect. First off if they renamed them Deva, I'm not expecting much. I'll just be calling them Aasimar. At this point how can really say.
Deva being good invokers may be a point in favor of INT/WIS, but WIS/CHA is also possible. After all, Dwarves use CON/WIS and are still considered optimal Fighters despite those being secondary stats, and Tieflings make better Fey Warlocks despite their flavor pointing them toward Infernal.
I'd say that the array for Deva will be either one of those two (INT/WIS or WIS/CHA).
The invoker preview has an image of what could possibly be a Deva:
Deva being good invokers may be a point in favor of INT/WIS, but WIS/CHA is also possible. After all, Dwarves use CON/WIS and are still considered optimal Fighters despite those being secondary stats, and Tieflings make better Fey Warlocks despite their flavor pointing them toward Infernal.
I'd say that the array for Deva will be either one of those two (INT/WIS or WIS/CHA).
I think that's less a picture of a Deva, and more a picture of something summoned. However, I could be wrong.
The "Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes" racial ability came up again in the Mercykillers article today, with Captain Andrezhej. He is stated to be a medium immortal humanoid with pale skin, white hair, and strange skin patterns. With no specified race, I think this is pretty much confirmation that the ability is for deva.
There is also an Astral Majesty ability giving him +1 defense vs attacks of bloodied creatures, the oft-speculated reverse Bloodhunt to mirror tieflings' +1 against bloodied creatures. His highest abilities are Wis, Str, and Int, but who knows.
Great scoop: the strange skin patterns and pale skin coincide perfectly with the (probable) deva portrait of the Invoker.
And Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes (power) and Astral Majesty (passive bonus) match perfectly with all we know from the FR deva description and the angels, respectively. I'd also say that given the big difference between the Int and Cha scores of the Captain, we can pretty much rule out Cha from the ability bonuses, leaving only the doubt between Int and Str. But I'm 90% partial towards Int, since it's particularly high for the type of character we're seeing, and because we know devas are perfect Invokers. Being like this, a good racial bonus to Fortitude would make this guys balanced in all defenses, just like paladin and invoker both have bonuses to all defense... I couldn't help picturing the deva resist all manners of attacks and then, turning calmly towards the stupefied spectators stare at them and say with a deep growling voice "it's an angel thing..." I know you'll get this reference, COOKIES FOR THE FIRST! :D
So anything more?? Skills. Always from the same character we get History, Intimidate and Religion as choices. History and Religion seem by far the most probable, with Intimidate being tied to the class, and besides being tied to many favored classes of the deva, for sure.
WE HAVE THE DEVA, roll your new characters... (uh well, distribute your points.. meh..)
Addendum: favored classes would be Invoker/Wizard, Swordmage, Cleric/Avenger, Druid/Bard, and possibly Warden/Paladin; in order of optimization and supposing Avengers are powered by Wisdom at least in one build.
I would PARTICULARLY dig an Invoker multiclassed with Swordmage and with the feat to have Int fueling basic melee. Wow. Or a very cool Avenger with a dip of Bard, connected to Avandra or Sehanine. Double wow.
However, even if the Deva turns out to be INT/WIS, it's a possibility that the Divine Power sourcebook will contain a Deva Paladin paragon path, to make that option more attractive. Additionally, there might be a feat in either PHB2 or Divine Power (similar to the swordmage feat that uses INT to attack) that lets a divine class use WIS or CHA to attack.
Angels have no faces, typicly, in D&D.
You misspelled "period." You also misspelled the misspelling of "period."
So what to do with my Deva Bard? Is something like Str 8 Con 12 Dex 11 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 16 any good? Makes a good half-assed cleric/druid/invoker/wizard/etc, if that means anything.
Also, I'm pretty sure that picture is a deva. Cool stuff, I'm looking forward to the explanation for the strange light patterns.
Also, I'm pretty sure that picture is a deva. Cool stuff, I'm looking forward to the explanation for the strange light patterns.
Are you talking about the stripe across the face? Maybe devas all have astral light shining on their eyes, kind of like Morticia Adams always has her eyes illuminated...but not so comically. :P
Actually, the "shined upon by sourceless astral light" thing meshes well with a description of an angelic being in a book I read. That could be kinda cool.
IMHO, though, I'd guess it's probably just physical coloring like a panda or raccoon's mask pattern around the eyes.
Great scoop: the strange skin patterns and pale skin coincide perfectly with the (probable) deva portrait of the Invoker.
And Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes (power) and Astral Majesty (passive bonus) match perfectly with all we know from the FR deva description and the angels, respectively. I'd also say that given the big difference between the Int and Cha scores of the Captain, we can pretty much rule out Cha from the ability bonuses, leaving only the doubt between Int and Str. But I'm 90% partial towards Int, since it's particularly high for the type of character we're seeing, and because we know devas are perfect Invokers. Being like this, a good racial bonus to Fortitude would make this guys balanced in all defenses, just like paladin and invoker both have bonuses to all defense... I couldn't help picturing the deva resist all manners of attacks and then, turning calmly towards the stupefied spectators stare at them and say with a deep growling voice "it's an angel thing..." I know you'll get this reference, COOKIES FOR THE FIRST! :D
So anything more?? Skills. Always from the same character we get History, Intimidate and Religion as choices. History and Religion seem by far the most probable, with Intimidate being tied to the class, and besides being tied to many favored classes of the deva, for sure.
WE HAVE THE DEVA, roll your new characters... (uh well, distribute your points.. meh..)
Addendum: favored classes would be Invoker/Wizard, Swordmage, Cleric/Avenger, Druid/Bard, and possibly Warden/Paladin; in order of optimization and supposing Avengers are powered by Wisdom at least in one build.
I would PARTICULARLY dig an Invoker multiclassed with Swordmage and with the feat to have Int fueling basic melee. Wow. Or a very cool Avenger with a dip of Bard, connected to Avandra or Sehanine. Double wow.
look at his wisdom and his religion they are both +13...
intimidate is 9(cha+lvl)+5train = 14
but history! history is 11(int +lvl) +2! so i think they'll have history bonus...
also i think it woun't have bonus to diplomace(cuz Amyria have exactly 8cha+5train)
in my opinion Devas can be:
Deva-
-+2 Wis +2 Int
- Speed: 6
- Languages: Common, Choice of one another
- +2 bonus history and ***
- Vision: Low-light
- Radiant Resistance:** Resist radiant 5 + one-half your level
- Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes* (free;encounter)
add 1d6 to a d20 roll you just made.
- Astral Majesty
gain +1 bonus to all defenses against attacks made by bloodied creatures.
*i've used amyria's version of Memory cuz it's shorter=)
**they also may have a feat to add necrotic resistance...
***IDK...any skill that can suite them(insight or streetwise for example)
look at his wisdom and his religion they are both +13...
intimidate is 9(cha+lvl)+5train = 14
but history! history is 11(int +lvl) +2! so i think they'll have history bonus...
also i think it woun't have bonus to diplomace(cuz Amyria have exactly 8cha+5train)
in my opinion Devas can be:
*i've used amyria's version of Memory cuz it's shorter=)
**they also may have a feat to add necrotic resistance...
***IDK...any skill that can suite them(insight or streetwise for example)
Whoa I didn't notice they got resistances too.
I agree with your version with the fiollowing exceptions:
- No Low-light vision (no evidence, and too overpowering, they're already VERY powerful)
- Skills are gonna be History and Religion (Religion is Int based!)
I'm a little concerned with the power level of the encounter power, I guess it's "balanced" by the fact that you add the d6 before knowing the result, but I still think it's powerful, I would have said it's a daily power, but the character has it as encounter.
All in all, I like them, and I think they're powerful and make for very balanced defenses (if they get a +1 Fort, I'm not so sure looking at how powerful they seem, and the NPC simply CAN'T give us that kind of evidence)
EDIT: Comparing with the Tiefling, they shouldn't get the +1 Fortitude bonus, unless it's considered fair trade with the normal (instead of low-light) vision.
Whoa I didn't notice they got resistances too.
I agree with your version with the fiollowing exceptions:
*No Low-light vision (no evidence, and too overpowering, they're already VERY powerful)
*Skills are gonna be History and Religion (Religion is Int based!)
*It's also possible that they may have Supernal language as default, the character has Common, Primordial and Supernal, who knows...
I'm a little concerned with the power level of the encounter power, I guess it's "balanced" by the fact that you add the d6 before knowing the result, but I still think it's powerful, I would have said it's a daily power, but the character has it as encounter.
All in all, I like them, and I think they're powerful and make for very balanced defenses (if they get a +1 Fort, I'm not so sure looking at how powerful they seem, and the NPC simply CAN'T give us that kind of evidence)
EDIT: Comparing with the Tiefling, they shouldn't get the +1 Fortitude bonus, unless it's considered fair trade with the normal (instead of low-light) vision.
hmm...tieflings and some other races have lowlight...so i don't think it is too OP...
i dont know why they must have +fort...i didn't write that=)
skills: look at Amyria and Captain Andrezhej both have religion = 5+Wis+1\2 level
as for language...Amyria and Andrezhej both have supernal so you may be right...
so....it can be something like that?
On another topic
Sonic screwdriver Magic item
Light blade
At will-all attacks with this weapon deal thunder damage.
Daily(maybe encounter)-uh at a lose here maybe ranged check of some sort, thievery (specificully open lock).
The d6 bonus only applies to skills checks saving throws etc right? if it applies to attack that will be way to overpowered(dont know if this has been discussed yet).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the problem. It seems it applies to attacks as well. I pointed out that it seems to be balanced by the fact you add the d6 before knowing results, but it's still not balanced mathematically, because an eventual +6 is simply too big a bonus.
It could be balanced if you rolled it before rolling the d20. (what do you think?)
I'm not sure if that's something that should be granted for free. Perhaps a Racial feat, an improved Linguist?
Problem with Supernal language.
thare is two possibilities:
1)they'll have supernal as others(that measns their supernal woun't have "mega-understand-me-all" option(as written in PHBp.10)
2)they have one language or their choice...
MAybe the PC version can only roll a d4?
i think d6 is ok... if you'll roll it before you know the result=)
I kind of suspect that the Deva will get "Common" as its only language, but can pick up the feat "Speak Supernal." This special Deva-only feat would allow them to speak "true" supernal, unlike what most PC's can receive.
hmm...you may be right...Amyria and Andrezhej all have 3 languages. one of them is common and the other is supernal...
hm...what kind of feat it can be?
You can’t choose the Abyssal or Supernal languages as a 1st-level character.
The gods have their own language, Supernal, which
they share with their angelic servants. When a god
or angel speaks Supernal, listeners who don’t speak
Supernal understand the words as if the speaker used
their own language
hmmmmm....maybe
Astral Speach: You count as an angel for the purposes of speaking Supernal. When an angel speaks Supernal, listeners who don’t speak Supernal understand the words as if the speaker used their own language.
(side note...it WoTC version will be similar to your...Devas must not have diplomacy and intimidate at their skill boosts (cuz this skills impose penalty if you can't speak target's language))
it would be cool if all immortals can speak this language=) or at leas make it "angel"-feature... and elemental (demons) can have their feat for Abyssal =)
I was somehow under the impression that Supernal also allowed understanding of other creatures, but I can't find that anywhere.
there isn't anythng in the books about understanding(i think) and your version is too OP... my version is actualy nce per day,,,so you can understand/speak only one additional language of your choice...but yours..it's like "say no to any other languages" =)
- It is Deva only because Deva are the only "immortal origin" PC race. If the creature in question is an NPC, the DM can give the character Supernal for free if he or she wants. But most Immortal creatures are devils, angels, or gods anyway, so that situation should rarely arise.
- The feat no longer confers understanding. Now, no reason to *speak* any other language, but it lacks the over-all utility of two-way understanding.
- As the DMG says, "language never has to be an issue in the game—unless you want it to be." Therefore, I think the term "overpowered" is kind of the wrong expression to use, even though the last version of my feat was too powerful.
It is Deva only because Deva are the only "immortal origin" PC race
bad argument. it is only pc race yet! i think in future there will defenetly be some more immortal races...
As the DMG says, "language never has to be an issue in the game—unless you want it to be
well i use language rules. My Players need to think about languages known when they are using intimidate or diplomacy(and other checks)... so Comprehend is their favorite ritual(or at least most usable=))
but this is a language spoken by angels, devils and gods. if in future there will be some new immortal races(for example with devilish back) they must have the acsess to supernal language...
Like the Tiefling?
There is no evidence of future "immortal" origin races, actually. Typically, when WotC makes a race, they try to make it have a particular niche, and try to design races that do not conflict with that race. Tiefling covers "diabolical," and Deva covers "angelic." Other races that see their origin in the Astral Sea, like the Bladeling, might exist, but they are obviously unique compared to either of the other races, and it doesn't even posses the "immortal origin" racial feature.
Like the Tiefling?
no. tiefling are not elemental or immortal race...they are just humans who made a pakt=)
Actually as someone who has never heard of these guys I have to ask, what do these Devas even look like. Thats what I honestly care to know, so long as its a balanced race I really don't care as much about its numeric abilities as the race's appearance society and other characteristics from an rp standpoint. I'd rather have a race with less than spectacular numbers that makes a really interesting character than having the opposite.
If we listen to speculation... This picture appeared in the Invoker preview:
I just wanted to add my two cents.
First, I don't think Low-Light Vision is necessary. Not because it's over-powered or something, but because it isn't needed with Deva lore. If Devas are from the Astral Sea in general, and the Astral Sea has a fair amount of ambiant light, then the Devas would have never developed a need for Low-Light Vision. Also, just because someone is "extra-human" doesn't necessarily mean they should be able to see better than humans. Normal sight is still fun.
Second, Devas will almost certainly not be getting Supernal (special edition or not). Frankly, it is simply too much work to differentiate something that is just a feat away at second level. Supernal, in its normal form is a bit too powerful to start with at first level, in my opinion. The benefits that come from Supernal come at the cost of a feat for a reason. The "Special Edition Supernal" discussed earlier will, likely, cause too much confusion at the table to be practical. ("Is he speaking Deva Supernal or regular Supernal?" "Well, you can understand him." "That doesn't tell me anything!" ... not worth the annoyance of hearing that question as often as you would.) In short, Devas will, probably, get Common with a choice of one other, which is similar, in concept, to Supernal anyway.
In addition, I wanted to say that the Racial Power is fine by me as written. My reasoning is that it is similar to the Elven Racial power, but it feels different. While the Elf may be about to fire and readjust his attack at the last second, the Deva fights much more straightforward, but his memories add a benefit beyond him sometimes. Past the lore, though, I see exactly what the developers mean for this racial to be. It is exactly like the Eberron Action Point. In my experience as an Eberron DM, the action point was usually used when PCs were worried about a roll that seemed "too close for comfort." Often this is exhibited when the party cannot afford to miss. I also want to point out that people miss with these benefits all the time. In the end, the difference is that the Elf can use his power after he knows he screwed up, while the Deva has to call it before. This is not easy, so take it easy on this power.
By the way, that Invoker is certainly a Deva. The description of Amyria fits that picture perfectly (that's page 27 of Dungeon 160).
One more thing, I really want to know what you think about Deva lore. How would they, for instance, fit into Eberron (just to, you know, pick a Campaign Setting at random...)?
Exciting stuff, guys. Thanks.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
One more thing, I really want to know what you think about Deva lore. How would they, for instance, fit into Eberron (just to, you know, pick a Campaign Setting at random...)?
Easiest way is too rename them either "The Inspired" or "Kalashtar". Say the bonus is you being prodded by your possesor, and you're done.
Little harder is to say they're the carriers of Siberys-Dragonmarks, with the mark's power changing them on a fundamental level.
Even dodgier is to say they're Humans who have been imbued with Astral Energy to help in the war. Trouble is you're making the warforged a little less special.
Finally there's the Highlander method, aka "The Cop-Out". Every now and then, a human is born Different. End.
Supernal is a bit as an ability, because you can get it by taking Linguist three times, except of course whe your DM plays silly buggers and puts extra languages in the setting (I'm looking at You Mr. Wyatt!)
Easiest way is too rename them either "The Inspired" or "Kalashtar". Say the bonus is you being prodded by your possesor, and you're done.
This would jive with the flavor text in the FRPG, which says that Devas are endlessly reincarnated and have memories dating back thousands of years. Sure sounds pretty similar to the Kalashtar to me.
They're a divine race, they should be good for Cleric and Paladin too
With Elven Accuracy, if you fail an attack roll on a really important daily power, you can reroll your attack. That's even if you rolled a "1." You get a new chance to turn that miss into a success. The odds of Elven Accuracy working are the same as the odds of your original attack (probably around 60%), but it works on every miss.
With Memory, you can only use it if you missed by a small amount. If you rolled a "1," forget it. That attack is gone. But if you missed by 2 or 3, you can give it another shot. If you do, the odds of your success will be extremely high (assuming you judged how far off you were correct). But you can't use Memory at all if you miss by 7 or 8 points, and the chance of Memory working at all if you missed by more than 3 is not particularly good.
When the right moment rolls around, Memory almost always works. Elven Accuracy doesn't work every time, but its there for you whenever you need it.
The "add +1d6 to a d20 you just rolled" is about balanced with elven accuracy, even if you know the results of your roll at the time you make the decision, like with Shield.
With Elven Accuracy, if you fail an attack roll on a really important daily power, you can reroll your attack. That's even if you rolled a "1." You get a new chance to turn that miss into a success. The odds of Elven Accuracy working are the same as the odds of your original attack (probably around 60%), but it works on every miss.
With Memory, you can only use it if you missed by a small amount. If you rolled a "1," forget it. That attack is gone. But if you missed by 2 or 3, you can give it another shot. If you do, the odds of your success will be extremely high (assuming you judged how far off you were correct). But you can't use Memory at all if you miss by 7 or 8 points, and the chance of Memory working at all if you missed by more than 3 is not particularly good.
When the right moment rolls around, Memory almost always works. Elven Accuracy doesn't work every time, but its there for you whenever you need it.
Wow, are you of a +2 Int race or you just bought an 18?
Very good point, you just saved the Deva from my overpowered judgment.
I hope they're not Int/Wis, that would be a huge slap in the face to the wizard favoring races like Eladrin, Tiefling and Gnome.
They're a divine race, they should be good for Cleric and Paladin too
What, Wisdom isn't a good stat for Clerics and Paladins?
And don't Invokers have a Wis/Int build?
I fail to see where they are not a good divine race.
And if you think about it, divine characters have to boost that Reflex defense some way, and I think it's more flavorful for them to use Int to do it. It helps knowledge skills too, it's fine IMO.
I really hope Avenger gets Int somewhere. After all we know about a Deva Avenger, and the class playtested by Whil Wheaton was the Avenger for sure and he had chosen Eladrin. I think we may be quite positive about an Int-based build for the Avenger.
or +2 Str +2 Wis is my bets
My Aasimar has the option to choose between those two arrangements.
+2 Str +2 Cha
or +2 Str +2 Wis is my bets
My Aasimar has the option to choose between those two arrangements.
I'm thinking possibly +2 WIS, +2 Cha
This will be the Deva, 90% sure:
Deva
- +2 Wis +2 Int
- Speed: 6
- Languages: Common, choice of one other
- +2 bonus History and Religion
- Radiant Resistance:** Resist radiant 5 + one-half your level
- Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes* (free;encounter)
add 1d6 to a d20 roll you just made.
- Astral Majesty
gain +1 bonus to all defenses against attacks made by bloodied creatures.
People, if you read the second page of the thread you'll discover that Int & Wis is MUCH more probable than any other combination.
I just reread the second page, and I see no evidence that INT/WIS is much more probably than any other combination. I just saw you say that it looked like a good assumption.
I'm still rooting for WIS/CHA with +1 Fortitude. Even INT/CHA seems to fit more conceptually to me than INT/WIS.
So now where is this thing where you got the INT/WIS idea from? Link please? Did I just miss it?
Because the preview saying Devas are good Invokers doesn't really mean a thing, so I know that can't be all. After all, the PHB says Dwarves make particularly good Fighters, and it only has bonuses to secondary stats...
EDIT: Also, the captain in that article is statted out as an enemy, not as a PC, and I'm pretty sure the rules for building them are different, so I wouldn't take that as too much of an indication when it takes to racial ability modifiers... Heck, even if you're just looking at the highest two stats, you'd end up with STR/WIS...
I just reread the second page, and I see no evidence that INT/WIS is much more probably than any other combination. I just saw you say that it looked like a good assumption.
I'm still rooting for WIS/CHA with +1 Fortitude. Even INT/CHA seems to fit more conceptually to me than INT/WIS.
So now where is this thing where you got the INT/WIS idea from? Link please? Did I just miss it?
Because the preview saying Devas are good Invokers doesn't really mean a thing, so I know that can't be all. After all, the PHB says Dwarves make particularly good Fighters, and it only has bonuses to secondary stats...
EDIT: Also, the captain in that article is statted out as an enemy, not as a PC, and I'm pretty sure the rules for building them are different, so I wouldn't take that as too much of an indication when it takes to racial ability modifiers... Heck, even if you're just looking at the highest two stats, you'd end up with STR/WIS...
It was all based on an analysis of that captain's stats, where given the type of character, cha was not good, and int and wis were particularly high.
IMHO, especially seeing the theme and the appearance, Cha doesn't fit. Who would like such a freaky individual? I think they inspire more suspicion than awe.
I just noticed, there's a Deva fluff titbit on page 31 of the Hestavar article.
It was all based on an analysis of that captain's stats, where given the type of character, cha was not good, and int and wis were particularly high.
I need to see this justified. This guy obviously isn't built as a PC or even an NPC. He's built as an enemy. That means his ability scores don't even really factor into anything. They're basically just there for show.
IMHO, especially seeing the theme and the appearance, Cha doesn't fit. Who would like such a freaky individual? I think they inspire more suspicion than awe.
This vvv
Charisma is force of will; the ability to inflict your will upon others/the world. Appearance doesn't come into it.
I say this as Str is out due to Devas not being listed with Barb or Warden.
Devas are listed with Invokers (And I think Druids, though I would have to double check that), which is Wis/Int/Con. Wis/Con as dwarf and then Wis/Int as Deva seems most likely.
A being who lived through many lives, IMO, becomes fatalistic and not interested in imposing its will on others. He's concerned about more abstract matters than that, always IMHO.
Plus, Aluman made two good points.
And another thing. As you can see they throw hidden preview snippets here and there (thanks for that Hestavar bit, I had missed it). I perfectly know that the guy's stats (he's a NPC by the way, and like every NPC it can be fought by the PCs) are made with monster design in mind, but right because of that, why do you think they give him exactly those stats, when they could have given practically any other combo? It's a preview. They wanted us to guess the deva's racial modifiers.
Cha doesn't fit. Who would like such a freaky individual? I think they inspire more suspicion than awe.
You mean, just like Tieflings? :P
You mean, just like Tieflings? :P
Heheh, evil has always been more seductive than religion! :D
Speaking of it in game terms, devils are much more manipulative than angels. Angels mind their own business, they're nearly divine constructs, with no interest in manipulation of the wills of others. They guard, avenge... They're vigilantes, not schemers.
Average Height 5'6"-6'2"
Weight 140-230 lbs
Angelic Heritage.
+2 Str
+2 Wis
or
+2 Str
+2 Cha
Low Light vision
Speed 6 squares. (30 feet)
Sublime Chord A heavenly dazing sound comes from your mouth dazing your foes, in a large burst. 1/encounter burst 5, Cha, Wis, or Con vs Will defense. (have to choose this. first time this choice is made it must stay that choice.) if succesful enemy is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Skill Bonus, +2 Heal, and Insight
Electricity Resistance 5 + one half your level.
Encounter power, Light. As opposite to Drow darkness. Also inflicts a -2 to attack rolls to creatures with the shadow subtype.
Aasimar's are descended from Angelic or celestial beings. They often have golden or silver hair, golden skin, any eye color reflecting their heritage, and a noble bearing.
My Aasimar. Which is just as likely as this Int Wis nonsense. (if not more so)
My Deva actually fits the stat strengths of the Angels. Does no one look in the monster manual anymore ? :P The hints are as clear as day at least to me. I see Angels, STR/Wis or STR Cha favoring.
That's why I'm thinking it's going to be Str/Wis or Str/Cha
Bearded: 10/11 Int/Cha deffiantly not what it favors.
Bone: 11/20 Again not in the highest (though charisma is one point from being in the top two)
Kyton: 14/13 Bottom of the pile
Ice: 15/19 bottom of the pile
Imp: 16/16 Tied for second-fourth place with con
Legion (all): 10/11 bottom of the pile
Pit Fiend: 22/28 Charisma second.
Spined: 10/11
Succubus: 15/22 Charisma First
Wardevil: 15/18 Bottom of hte pile
So of devils: 5/10 have One of the favored pair of Tiefling as not Worst. Only 1/10 has one of the favored pair of Tieflings as best.
Demons:
Balor 12/14 (At level 27): Bottom of Pile
Barluga: 6/12: Bottom of of pile
Evistor: 5/7: Bottom
Glaberzu: 24/16: Int second best
Goristu: 6/12 Bottom
Hezru: 8/16 Bottom
Immolith: 9/18 Charisma 3rd best
Marilith: 14/22 Charisma 3rd best
Mezzodemon: 10/13 Bottom
Vrock: 12/19 Charisma tied for 3rd.
So 4/10 in demons is Charisma/int not the worst stats.
Combined 9/20 not even 50% of their alleged forefathers can attest to having stats would favor Cha/Int. And 11/20, Over 50%, can attest to Cha/Int being their lowest stat.
Conclusion: Looking at the MM for potential stat mods doesn't work.
I guess you just wanted to state that monster stats can't be trusted.
But I trust the points you stated in your former post more than the stats of that npc too.
Plus, if I can make a point basing on the creatures that are tied to tieflings and devas, it is the latter I made: angels, thematically speaking, are not manipulative. They represent dedication to an ideal and sheer power to get it applied well.
If devas were "half-angels" a bit like aasimar were, I'd tell you they must be Con/Wis or Str/Wis.
But we know their fluff has changed. They could be angel souls, but they lived by reincarnation into mortal bodies for who knows how much time. So what can be their "genetic legacy"? We're talking of souls, so the first three stats are not to be considered.
We got a choice of two among Int, Wis, and Cha.
But as I think it's clear to anyone, angels are no [more] charismatic types.
So as simple as that, Wis is obvious due to their dedicated nature. Cha is less probable. And Int may be represented by, as you said, a general "superior being" ancestry like Eladrin and Tiefling teach us, or, IMO, a general "mental growth" given by their perpetual reincarnation.
But from all the things that we know, thematically speaking, nothing justifies Cha if not a lame "they're cool" explanation. And nothing justifies physical stats since they're not directly descended from angels. They ARE angels, but only inside (and it's not even sure, the Hestavar article presents this as the hypotesis given out by the angels thmselves, but not accepted by scholars who think things are more complicated).
So I say that everything tells us Int & Wis.
Now, add to that that a NPC (not a monster), which is the first deva we get to see, and it's not even stated as such, but hinted out by various means, add to those former points that this NPC has more Int and Wis than any other general "martial leader" (because that's what it is) we have seen, and we can conclude that there are only several options explaining this:
1- They wanted to hint us what deva stats were.
2- They just gave him random stats.
3- They gave him the stats that a character like him and of his race should have.
The third obviously bring us back to the first and tells us we got Int & Wis devas.
The second could very well be and tell us "we don't know deva stats", but that doesn't change the points that by reasoning can bring us to think that Int & Wis are the most probable. I'm not saying the most appealing, just the most reasonably probable.
Eladrin actually follow more or less their write up tendencies (but it's hard to say though cause their stats so don't follow point buy at all)
Also another reason I think maybe Str Wis, or Str Cha is for paladin purposes.
I mean the Tiefling is let's face it the stereotypical warlock race, I think the Aasimar short of some major tradition breaking is probably going to best work with the Pally... (Dear god that simple post took way too much effort)
Also another reason I think maybe Str Wis, or Str Cha is for paladin purposes.
I mean the Tiefling is let's face it the stereotypical warlock race, I think the Aasimar short of some major tradition breaking is probably going to best work with the Pally... (Dear god that simple post took way too much effort)
Except that Wis/Cha would be just as good, if not better, for a Paladin than Str/Wis.
I'm going to say either Int/Wis or Cha/Wis is most likely since it is the two combos we don't have and make sense along the racial lines. Combine that with the PH2 will have goliaths, shifters and half-orcs, all likely +2 Str races, I think it makes it that much more unlikely Deva will have +Str.
Except that Wis/Cha would be just as good, if not better, for a Paladin than Str/Wis.
I'm going to say either Int/Wis or Cha/Wis is most likely since it is the two combos we don't have and make sense along the racial lines. Combine that with the PH2 will have goliaths, shifters and half-orcs, all likely +2 Str races, I think it makes it that much more unlikely Deva will have +Str.
I'd agree that these two are the most likely stat setups for the Deva. INT/WIS would focus on invokers and wizards, and CHA/WIS would focus on clerics and paladins (while still making good invokers due to the primary stat boost). Also, the 3E Aasimar had boosts to Wisdom and Charisma, so tradition is behind that array (then again, Tieflings had a charisma penalty in 3E so 'tradition' might not be a sticking point).
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/DDXP09001.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/DDXP09002.jpg
Hey, why's no one discussing this?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/DDXP09001.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/DDXP09002.jpg
I did!
I did some quick math assuming the stats came from point buy and it seems pretty obvious that the Deva are Wis/Con, which makes some sense if they're going for the "eternal" concept. I guess it steps on dwarves toes a bit, but whatever, there are a finite combination of attributes to boost.
I did!
I did some quick math assuming the stats came from point buy and it seems pretty obvious that the Deva are Wis/Con, which makes some sense if they're going for the "eternal" concept. I guess it steps on dwarves toes a bit, but whatever, there are a finite combination of attributes to boost.
Oh, hehe! :embarrass Didn't see ya up there. :P
Hm...check out the Astral Resistance thing!
Oh, and it looks like probably +2 to History and Religion is right, yes?
I did!
I did some quick math assuming the stats came from point buy and it seems pretty obvious that the Deva are Wis/Con, which makes some sense if they're going for the "eternal" concept. I guess it steps on dwarves toes a bit, but whatever, there are a finite combination of attributes to boost.
Funny, to me its obvious its wis/int:
Argument for Wis/Int
(Scores -2 wis -2 int)
Wis 16
Int 14
Con 13
Cha 12
Str 11
Dex 10
Aka Standard Array.
Argument for Wis/Con
Wis 16
Int 16
Cha 12
Con 11
Str 11
Dex 10
Point cost: 9+9+2+1+1 = 22, but since it starts 10 10 10 10 10 8, there is another +2 somewhere.
Oh, hehe! :embarrass Didn't see ya up there. :P
Hm...check out the Astral Resistance thing!
Oh, and it looks like probably +2 to History and Religion is right, yes?
AR: 5 Necrotic and 5 Radiant +1/2 level (probably as radiant/necrotic is an uncommon damage type)
Break down I can see on the skills listed.
Insight: 4 ability, 1 level, no training
Perception: 4 ability, 1 level, no training
Heal: 4 ability, 1 level, 5 training
History: 3 ability, 1 level, 5 training (2 unexplained, probably racial)
Nature: 4 Ability, 1 level, 5 training
Religion: 3 ability, 1 level, 5 training (2 unexplained probably racial).
One more thing: they get 3 languages.
Funny, to me its obvious its wis/int:
Argument for Wis/Int
(Scores -2 wis -2 int)
Wis 16
Int 14
Con 13
Cha 12
Str 11
Dex 10
Aka Standard Array.
Argument for Wis/Con
Wis 16
Int 16
Cha 12
Con 11
Str 11
Dex 10
Point cost: 9+9+2+1+1 = 22, but since it starts 10 10 10 10 10 8, there is another +2 somewhere.
err... where are you getting the final +2 from? That's 9 points for the wis, 9 for the int, two for cha, one for con and one from str. 9 + 9 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 22
edit: oh I forgot the 8!! Okay, good point.
Hmm.... well does anything else seem viable using point buy, or should we just assume these characters are built on the standard array?
Edit> Def. wis/something I will state that much now :D.
Edit2> Only Wis/Int works out. they are Wis/Int.
err... where are you getting the final +2 from? That's 9 points for the wis, 9 for the int, two for cha, one for con and one from str. 9 + 9 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 22
edit: oh I forgot the 8!! Okay, good point.
Hmm.... well does anything else seem viable using point buy, or should we just assume these characters are built on the standard array?
The other two are for Dex. Remember, your stats start at 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8.
As for their gettings +2 Int/+2 Wis, that just strikes me as odd. Why the Int bonus? A Cha bonus? Sure. A Str bonus would've certainly been nice. But Int? In 2E, Aasimar had Str/Wis and that made sense. In 3E, they had Wis/Cha and that also made sense. Int/Wis, however, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Oh well.
Crunching numbers on the rest, I think most likely wis/int, as I am sure they use standard array, but I like to verify my bases.
Edit> Def. wis/something I will state that much now :D.
Yeah their Warforged warden's stats are 18/16/13/10/12/11, I'd say that spread really only makes sense with the standard array (which it is subtracting the 2 from str and con.) So basically Wis/Int it is.
edit: and those stats are too expensive in point buy, so the warforged had to have used the standard array - which means odds are the Deva did too, which means wis/int.
Crunching numbers on the rest, I think most likely wis/int, as I am sure they use standard array, but I like to verify my bases.
Edit> Def. wis/something I will state that much now :D.
Hehehe....this is what I was expecting to see here. :D Thanks folks!
What do you suppose the Auspicious Lineage feat does, and is it tied to race or class?
+2 History/Religion
3 languages (thought one may come from a feat),
2 resistances (Necrotic and Radiant both at tiefling levels, though one may come from a feat),
+1d8 to a 1d20 roll 1/encounter.
Standard vision
Immortal Origins.
Move 6.
Hehehe....this is what I was expecting to see here. :D Thanks folks!
What do you suppose the Auspicious Lineage feat does, and is it tied to race or class?
I bet race, and my leaning is grants Necrotic/Radiant resistance (whichever isn't innate) and 1 language.
I wanna know if Radiant Power is a normal feat or race special.
I hope normal, as that would make a kick ass sorcerer add on feat.
What do you suppose the Auspicious Lineage feat does, and is it tied to race or class?
+2Wis +2Int
+2 History/Religion
3 languages (thought one may come from a feat),
2 resistances (Necrotic and Radiant both at tiefling levels, though one may come from a feat),
+1d8 to a 1d20 roll 1/encounter.
Standard vision
Immortal Origins.
Move 6.
I think Auspicuous lineage makes the +1d6 upgrade to d8...
I think Auspicuous lineage makes the +1d6 upgrade to d8...
I didn't think about that, that could be. But it would put the Deva's even further behind the elf accuracy.
Explination:
Right now Elvish accuracy is strictly better the Deva's ability, with a feat EA becomes reroll+1d6 meaning undo the 1 and get +1d6 on the roll, in Fearun (Where Deva's don't get special feats) it can be +1d6+1d4.
I am hoping the Deva's feat is: change from +1d8 to +1d10, so that they remain almost a viable 'hit better' option compared to Elves.
I didn't think about that, that could be. But it would put the Deva's even further behind the elf accuracy.
Explination:
Right now Elvish accuracy is strictly better the Deva's ability, with a feat EA becomes reroll+1d6 meaning undo the 1 and get +1d6 on the roll, in Fearun (Where Deva's don't get special feats) it can be +1d6+1d4.
I am hoping the Deva's feat is: change from +1d8 to +1d10, so that they remain almost a viable 'hit better' option compared to Elves.
the only reason I belive this is I remeber a dragon article had an NPC with a power of the same name (People then called it as a deva hint) but it was d6...
the only reason I belive this is I remeber a dragon article had an NPC with a power of the same name (People then called it as a deva hint) but it was d6...
I hope you are wrong. Devas still look cool either way, but the elf shouldn't be the most awesome at turning failure into win.
I hope you are wrong. Devas still look cool either way, but the elf shouldn't be the most awesome at turning failure into win.
I'm thinking he's right. Remember, this ability doesn't just affect attack rolls. It also affects saving throws, skill checks, and something else (can't tell).
I'm thinking he's right. Remember, this ability doesn't just affect attack rolls. It also affects saving throws, skill checks, and something else (can't tell).
And this means they ARE the best at rerolling. I don't think they are balanced with any of the other races but Dwarf. They surely loved dwarves at WotC.
Explination:
Right now Elvish accuracy is strictly better the Deva's ability, with a feat EA becomes reroll+1d6 meaning undo the 1 and get +1d6 on the roll, in Fearun (Where Deva's don't get special feats) it can be +1d6+1d4.
I am hoping the Deva's feat is: change from +1d8 to +1d10, so that they remain almost a viable 'hit better' option compared to Elves.
No, its not strictly better.
Lets say I hit on an 8+. I can be either an elf or a deva.
If I roll a 1, and I am an elf, I can use elven accuracy to reroll. My chance of turning my miss into a hit is the same as my original chance of hitting: 65%.
If I roll a 1 and I am a deva, I can't use memories at all. Its not a big enough bonus.
But lets say I roll a 7, and I am an elf. I can reroll, and I have a 65% chance of turning my miss into a hit. Same as the original roll.
If I roll a 7 and I am a deva, I can use memories, add +1d6, and have a 100% chance of turning my miss into a hit.
That's the tradeoff. You can't say which is strictly better because you don't know the exact defense numbers that you're attacking, and because you choose whether to use both powers and can elect to use them at the best possible moment. But leaving aside the term "strictly," a strong case can be made for Memories because, if you time it for a moment when you're sure that you nearly hit, you can have a very, very high chance of turning your miss into a hit. Elven Accuracy, by contrast, always gives you the same generic possibilities. Of course, you can also use it at all times, so its better for boosting your encounter and daily powers. But you can't use it on skill rolls, etc, etc, etc. Trade offs. Both make a decent case for themselves.
The other two are for Dex. Remember, your stats start at 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8.
As for their gettings +2 Int/+2 Wis, that just strikes me as odd. Why the Int bonus? A Cha bonus? Sure. A Str bonus would've certainly been nice. But Int? In 2E, Aasimar had Str/Wis and that made sense. In 3E, they had Wis/Cha and that also made sense. Int/Wis, however, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Oh well.
The int bonus comes from the fact that they have lived through many lives over the centuries keeping only their memories between each one. So over the centuries they have gained more knowledge than your average bear.
I'm thinking he's right. Remember, this ability doesn't just affect attack rolls. It also affects saving throws, skill checks, and something else (can't tell).
Pretty sure it says "saving throws, skill checks, and an ally's check."
Pretty sure it says "saving throws, skill checks, and an ally's check."
It's close to unreadable, but I think it says "ability check." That way also makes a lot more sense to me.
2 resistances (Necrotic and Radiant both at tiefling levels, though one may come from a feat)
Based on this sheet a racial feature is resist 6 for necrotic and radiant damage.
I am surprised to see Deva's don't speak Supernal.
No, its not strictly better.
Lets say I hit on an 8+. I can be either an elf or a deva.
If I roll a 1, and I am an elf, I can use elven accuracy to reroll. My chance of turning my miss into a hit is the same as my original chance of hitting: 65%.
If I roll a 1 and I am a deva, I can't use memories at all. Its not a big enough bonus.
But lets say I roll a 7, and I am an elf. I can reroll, and I have a 65% chance of turning my miss into a hit. Same as the original roll.
If I roll a 7 and I am a deva, I can use memories, add +1d6, and have a 100% chance of turning my miss into a hit.
[...]
hmmm...what about wild elf vs Deva? =)
The int bonus comes from the fact that they have lived through many lives over the centuries keeping only their memories between each one. So over the centuries they have gained more knowledge than your average bear.
Also as someone pointed out in another thread, it appears that Int is the common boost for extraplanars, since out of all the extraplanars we have (Deva, Tiefling, Genasi, Eladrin, Shadar Kai, Gnome, Githyanki, Githzerai, Bladeling), all of them have Int boosts except Githzerai & Bladelings (both Dex/Wis). So that's 7 out of 9 Extraplanar races with Int boosts.
Based on this sheet a racial feature is resist 6 for necrotic and radiant damage.
I am surprised to see Deva's don't speak Supernal.
The resistance has gotta be 5 + 1/2 level.
As for Supernal, that would be too good. It's a universal language (DMG p.171). Granted, they haven't been entirely clear on this: the DMG actually only says it's universal when spoken by gods and angels, and the PHB only forbids level 1 characters from learning it. Which would imply they can learn it later and that it isn't a magic universal translator when spoken by mortals. Whether or not that's true, I honestly don't see the point of that level restriction, it just seems petty. In other products (CBA to look up references), however, there are non-divine creatures with Supernal who use it as a way to avoid having to learn other languages...
The resistance has gotta be 5 + 1/2 level.
As for Supernal, that would be too good. It's a universal language (DMG p.171). Granted, they haven't been entirely clear on this: the DMG actually only says it's universal when spoken by gods and angels, and the PHB only forbids level 1 characters from learning it. Which would imply they can learn it later and that it isn't a magic universal translator when spoken by mortals. Whether or not that's true, I honestly don't see the point of that level restriction, it just seems petty. In other products (CBA to look up references), however, there are non-divine creatures with Supernal who use it as a way to avoid having to learn other languages...
Abyssal is also prohibited from being selected at first level, but that doesn't stop Gnoll characters from getting it anyway, IIRC.
I didn't think about that, that could be. But it would put the Deva's even further behind the elf accuracy.
Explination:
Right now Elvish accuracy is strictly better the Deva's ability, with a feat EA becomes reroll+1d6 meaning undo the 1 and get +1d6 on the roll, in Fearun (Where Deva's don't get special feats) it can be +1d6+1d4.
I am hoping the Deva's feat is: change from +1d8 to +1d10, so that they remain almost a viable 'hit better' option compared to Elves.
I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Currently, EA w/feat is either a static +2, or a +1d4 (at the cost of not being able to take another great feat, Wild Elf Agility). In addition, EA requires that the d20 roll is rerolled, meaning that the result *could* be even lower than the first roll even with the +1d4.
The bonus of Memory of a Thousand Lives is two fold. The first is simply that it has a higher bonus: +1d6 rather than Elf's reroll (the + 1d4 is ONLY through a feat, so even *with* a feat, the Deva is getting a higher bonus). The second advantage is that Deva is not required to reroll the d20. As a result, the Deva can consciously say, "hey, I rolled a 10. If I use my encounter power, I am guaranteed a hit". The Elf cannot do this because of the reroll. In other words, the Deva can guarantee that the racial is used successfully, while the Elf can use his racial and still result in a failed attempt.
Oh! And another bonus is that Devas can use their racial on more than just attack rolls, unlike the Elfs.
(Note: I play an Elven Ranged Ranger, and I know the downfalls of Elven Accuracy =)
hmmm...what about wild elf vs Deva? =)
Are you talking about the feat that grants +1d4 to elven accuracy? Is that a wild elf thing?
That doesn't change anything. The Deva still starts from a given, known number, and adds something, meaning that you can still wait and time it for exactly the right moment. The Elf still has to reroll the dice, meaning that there's no guarantee that it will work, but its usable no matter how far you missed by.
In short,
Deva ability: Nearly guaranteed chance of upgrading a near-hit into an actual-hit.
Elf: Shaky chance of upgrading a miss into a hit, regardless of how much you missed by.
Assuming you get to use EA AFTER the first roll, it is better when you flat need a re-roll. You already know you missed, and so you call on the power. You have effectively doubled your chance of hitting any target number. Are you really going to call EA after you roll a natural 20? Probably not. Would you after a 19? Only if you already knew it would miss (at which point, your in a world of hurt, but that is another story).
They both work better under certain circumstances.
That is interesting, and begs to ask, are devas always reincarnated as devas with rare occurances , or do they sometimes change form in new lives and then still get reincarnated
Probably just Devas and Rakshasas, which makes sense since Devas and Rakshasas are of Hindi origin - gods and demons.
Also makes +int/wis make a lot of sense, as those are the two best stats to reflect an enlightened one.
Gnomes and Aasimars were my absolute favorite D&D races in the previous edition. I dislike the entire 4E spin on the cosmetology and Aasimars. We already had the alignments covered for supernatural beings, Archons, Eladrin, Devils, and Demons. Along with a group of outsiders that fell under any one axis. The notion of a CE Angel makes as much sense as a CE Paladin that alignment axis does not produce a monster that fits the angel described in the 4E Monster’s Manual. They are over simplifying something that was already simple if you want to play a character whose ancestor was good in nature than you pick an Angel, Archon, or Eladrin. If your ancestor was evil in nature then you pick a Devil or Demon. I honestly think this homebrew Aasimar for 4E on the OotS is a stronger race that makes a better contrast to the Tiefling.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4387162
An angelical ancestry in 4e should mean more something like being tied to a particular idea and/or function, like angels are. That said, I don't dislike the race how it became, it actually simply has more than one possible explanations regarding origins, and a lesser tie to angels without actually denying that possibility.
I think I like more the idea of them being souls from an alternate pantheon/universe, came to incarnation in the natural plane by means of a strange conjunction that also brought rakshasas. It is more logic at this point, or it would mean rakshasas are themselves corrupted angels the way devils are, and it doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
Anyway, I see it covers a good range of archetypes that weren't covered, and that's the important thing, they really stayed away from needless symmetry with them.
I dislike the entire 4E spin on the cosmetology and Aasimars.
I personally like what has been released for 4e so far, both in terms of Deva and their cosmetology.
I dislike the entire 4E spin on the cosmetology and Aasimars.
I am personally looking forward to playing a deva cosmetologist (multiclassing into rouge, of course).
I am personally looking forward to playing a deva cosmetologist (multiclassing into rouge, of course).
You win the Thread!
I am personally looking forward to playing a deva cosmetologist (multiclassing into rouge, of course).
Hehehe.
I started to like the idea of Deva being angels anciently incarnated into mortal bodies and then reincarnating etc. but with the Rakshasa reincarnation possibility, I think they completely steered out of the angel descendant idea.
An angelical ancestry in 4e should mean more something like being tied to a particular idea and/or function, like angels are. That said, I don't dislike the race how it became, it actually simply has more than one possible explanations regarding origins, and a lesser tie to angels without actually denying that possibility.
I think I like more the idea of them being souls from an alternate pantheon/universe, came to incarnation in the natural plane by means of a strange conjunction that also brought rakshasas. It is more logic at this point, or it would mean rakshasas are themselves corrupted angels the way devils are, and it doesn't make a lot of sense anymore.
Anyway, I see it covers a good range of archetypes that weren't covered, and that's the important thing, they really stayed away from needless symmetry with them.
Devas and Rakshasas are both from Hindu mythology. Deva are benevolent supernatural beings while Rakshasas (a type of Asura) are generally malevolent. D&D is continuing this tradition. Rakshasas, while not classified as Demons or Devils, are similar in concept and nature.
There is symmetry, it's just not Christian or European. The whole incarnation thing is also obviously a reference to Hindu beliefs in karma and reincarnation.
Rakshasas seem to be getting more popular. Likely due to Eberron, where they are the most common and prominent of the "fiendish" creatures, again, in owing to their role in Hindu mythology.
Rakshasas seem to be getting more popular. Likely due to Eberron, where they are the most common and prominent of the "fiendish" creatures, again, in owing to their role in Hindu mythology.
Meh, I've liked Rakshasa for a while.. pretty much because of a Palladium book, say what you will about Palladium, they do some pretty good research for their deities, anyway back to the Rakshasa they're mean SOB's and the head (or three headed in this case) SOB is The Ravana. Eberron just kinda, reinforced it. Though, the backwards hand thing that D&D did is my favorite bit of fluff for them.. it's just kinda wrong.
For another good Rakshasa reference, one a bit closer to actual mythology, watch the Episode of Supernatural called 'Everybody Loves a Clown'. Season 2, episode 2.
Meh, I've liked Rakshasa for a while.. pretty much because of a Palladium book, say what you will about Palladium, they do some pretty good research for their deities, anyway back to the Rakshasa they're mean SOB's and the head (or three headed in this case) SOB is The Ravana. Eberron just kinda, reinforced it. Though, the backwards hand thing that D&D did is my favorite bit of fluff for them.. it's just kinda wrong.
For another good Rakshasa reference, one a bit closer to actual mythology, watch the Episode of Supernatural called 'Everybody Loves a Clown'. Season 2, episode 2.
Actually D&D didn't start the backwards hand thing. It shows up in the Hindu/Indian lore on Rakshasa as well as in the original 70's version of Night Stalker (72 to be exact).
Also recall that in Supernatural the deva weren't good by any means, they were the shadow 'demons' that attacked Dean and Sam in one episode. They weren't full demons but they were nasty spirits under control of a demon and even some of the Hindu lore shows them this way. Deva and Rakshasa are like the Egyptian gods: how good or evil they were varied on which side of a conflict the person referencing them was on.