Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Omni-Wyvernil Mar 07, 2010 12:50:04	We've discussed material for Arcane characters, now it's Divine's turn for speculation. While we probably won't see Divine Power 2 until at least the end of the year, it's still helpful to get down ideas for what we'd like to see there. Hopefully, developers might get some ideas for what direction to take from here. So, what would you like to see as future Divine options? Some ideas: Avenger: Divine Archer: It seems like the divine archer is one idea which could be turned into a new build for one of the divine classes. The avenger, as a divine assassin and inquisitor, could easily have its options increased by adding a ranged build to supplement its mostly-melee arsenal. Alternatively, the divine archer could be turned into a cleric build. Cleric: Not sure what else the cleric needs at the moment. Perhaps give some more love to the battle cleric so it still has a place alongside the runepriest. Or add an archer build to supplement the melee and laser builds. Or expand upon the domains from the first Divine Power with domain-specific paragon paths that allow the cleric to change the damage type of most of his radiant powers (such as a Storm Priest with the ability to exchange radiant for lightning damage). Invoker: Covenant of Revelation: A new alt-stat invoker build that uses Charisma as a secondary, focused around spreading the word of the invoker's deity and inflicting lots of psychic and domination effects. Paladin: Divine Mount - Since we've plumbed the depths of paladin concepts on foot, maybe it's time to bring back the classic mounted paladin from 3rd edition. After all, we've seen familiars and animal companions make a comeback. A lot of the problem, though, is the situational nature of the concept(mounts don't do well in tight spaces). Perhaps the mounted paladin build will then serve as a charging paladin on foot, with extra riders that kick in while he's mounted. Runepriest: From what I've heard of the class from early PHB3 owners, the runepriest may need some help finding a voice distinct from that of the battle cleric. There seems to be a disconnect between the flavor and mechanics of the class, which can be addressed by a STR/INT build to represent the more scholarly form of runepriest. In general, more paragon paths, epic destinies, and rituals are a given. Perhaps even some "dark priest" builds that rely more on necrotic "lasers" than radiant, for all you evil Divine characters out there. Multiclass paragon paths like the Arcane Trickster are another good idea (such as a Sacred Fist paragon path combining the abilities of the monk with divine power). What other ideas do you have?
#2 williamhm75 Mar 07, 2010 17:57:40	Rune priest options for int as a secondary stat.  Should have been secondary stat from the first.
#3 Crimson_Concerto Mar 07, 2010 18:32:37	I don't know why Avenger doesn't already have a STR-secondary build, so I'll throw my vote in for that. There may be an AC concern, but there are numerous ways to fix that. Heck, part of the benefit of the build might be Chain Proficiency and/or the ability to allow Armor of Faith to apply in Chain. Or that could even be the whole benefit and then any STR rider could just be added to powers. Or that might be totally overpowered. Whatever, it can be made to work just fine.
#4 mkill Mar 07, 2010 23:53:17	So far, my only divine character was a Drow Cha Paladin/Justiciar, and I'm totally happy with him. For me, there isn't any urgent need to fix for anything in Divine at the moment. Divine Power I fixed the Paladin quite nicely. I would be extremely happy if we get a revised Divine Challenge with the Essentials series though. My suggestion: Split in two. First power is the marking. Minor, Close burst 5, mark one enemy in burst until end of encounter or until you use this power again. Second power is the punishment. Immediate Interrupt, marked enemy makes attack that does not include you, deal 1 + Wisdom or Charisma modifier radiant damage. Increase to 5 at 11th level and 10 at 21st level. If you are adjacent to the triggering target, increase damage to 5 / 10 / 15 + Wisdom or Charisma. This fixes several issues with Divine Challenge at once: * No more ambiguous wording * Paladins get an incentive to stay adjacent to the target (more damage on punishment), but they can still use the power if not * scaling better reflects the hp of high-level monsters * No more feat tax for Str/Wis Paladin builds * It is now compatible with powers that give a generic marked condition, such as the bard's Vicious Mockery * No more need for Divine Sanction, these powers can just give a generic marked condition New feats: * mark 2 enemies with divine challenge * auto-mark on charge * use interrupt twice per round My 2 cents on your ideas: Avenger: Divine Archer: It seems like the divine archer is one idea which could be turned into a new build for one of the divine classes. The avenger, as a divine assassin and inquisitor, could easily have its options increased by adding a ranged build to supplement its mostly-melee arsenal. It could be weapon-ranged or implement-ranged, but yes, it would be nice to have an Avenger variant that works with ranged weapons. One thing I don't like about Avengers is that they are expected to wield huge hulking weapons like fullblades. I'd like to see options for smaller, more precise weapons like rapier or dagger. I'm aware that you can already have that with the Daggermaster paragon, but that one doesn't quite work before level 11. I'd also love to see a "Heretic" PP, i.e. someone who opposes the "orthodox" belief of his religion and fights against other believers of his deity. Cleric: [...] expand upon the domains from the first Divine Power with domain-specific paragon paths [...] This. So far, we have to dominant cleric archetypes, one is a battle-cleric and the other a healer, with a number of feats, PPs etc. each. I'd like to see more thematic builds, for example a cleric of a deity of love/the arts/music (Dionysos, Aphrodite etc.), or a cleric for a deity of thievery (mask, odilamarra etc.) Plus, feats to support clerics in cloth armor (i.e. Wis to AC in cloth. Needs to be balanced with Avenger) Also, material for "Cultist" builds, evil clerics running around  Invoker: Covenant of Revelation: A new alt-stat invoker build that uses Charisma as a secondary, focused around spreading the word of the invoker's deity and inflicting lots of psychic and domination effects. Sounds good. Paladin: Divine Mount - Since we've plumbed the depths of paladin concepts on foot, maybe it's time to bring back the classic mounted paladin from 3rd edition. Absolutely. I'm on the fence for Runepriest, I'll have to see the writeup first.
#5 kigvan Mar 08, 2010 0:03:49	Having a PHBIII in hand I agree with adding a Str/Int build.  I would also like to state that I do not think that it overlaps all that much with the Battle Cleric.  The Battle Cleric is a much better healer than the runepriest, but the runepriest is a much better ally buffer (I think that they have the some of best defensive buffs from leaders).  Also the mechanics are very different with the advent of runestates that I think makes playing a runepriest very interesting. I would love to see a mounted option for the paladin (may be due to the fact that my paladin has a bit of a mount focus). I have to say that I do not really like the proposed "fix" to divine challenge as that takes away the main benefit of a paladin being able to punish all of their sanctioned targets, though I do think it would be nice to see some effects off of generic marks (especially due to some of the mass marking PHBI powers). I like the idea of a ranged avenger build and would be interested to see what types of incentive they would give their enemies to remain apart from one another.
#6 undrave Mar 08, 2010 0:35:27	The way I'd do a Mounted Paladin is to have a 'Bonded Astral Spirit' follow you in a sort of passive state, granting you some sort of bonus like the Familiars do, then you get Channel Divinity: Summon Divine Mount that turn that spirit into a physical creature you can mount. The build would need to give up on Lay on Hands and options to get the Astral Spirit and trade one of its Channel Divinity for the Summon Divine Mount power. then you just throw Mount specific riders to encounter powers. Some that work on ANY mount and some that works on ANY mount and give you even MORE if you got a specific type of Astral Spirit. I also support the idea of a Divine Archer build. and the STR Cleric needs love! We need a new Channel Divinity that is useful to Weapon users AND actual Paragon Paths with Str-Weapon powers dangit! A STR Cleric either goes Battle Chaplain or Multiclass! That's ridiculous! No choices at all! And my cleric needs few more fun encounter Utility powers. Even if they're weak I'd like a few more options than cool dailies or sucky Encounters. Some proactive choices to lay down some Temp HP would be nice.
#7 Lady_Auralla Mar 08, 2010 2:19:21	I would like to see Oath of emnity altered to also affect tthe Avenger's ranged powes, as it is they will remain under utilized. I also believe the Avenger needs a bit more hitting power. As it stands the Avenger has the coolest fluff but the weakest powers.
#8 undrave Mar 08, 2010 2:28:02	I would like to see Oath of emnity altered to also affect tthe Avenger's ranged powes, as it is they will remain under utilized. I also believe the Avenger needs a bit more hitting power. As it stands the Avenger has the coolest fluff but the weakest powers. Hmm... maybe give us a choice? Oath of Enemity on melee or ranged attacks, but not both. Then give us tons of Implement and Ranged Weapon powers and we got our Divine Blaster.
#9 Hippolyte Mar 09, 2010 19:39:05	I want to see a Cleric or Avenger build for a Dark Age of Camelot Friar Tuck: Staff, robes, some healing, hard striking. I know that an Avenger is the divine striker, but the Avenger's fluff is too angry for a jovial friar, who should inherit some smidgeon of the Francis of Assissi schtick. He should drink hard (and fight hard when necessary to defend the weak) but also heal the sick, help the poor and sit under an aplle tree with rabbits and songbirds. A friar is hard to build now, because clerics need heavy armour and avengers cannot heal. Hybrids suck and clerical healing is strength based. Also, there is not much love for staves.
#10 Lord_Ventnor Mar 09, 2010 19:57:06	I'd like a more scholarly take on the Cleric, as represented by Intelligence as a secondary stat. Perhaps this particular build would focus on debuffing enemies as he calls upon the knowledge provided by divine texts to help "divine" the enemies weaknesses. (*hur hur I am funny*)
#11 jedi123 Mar 09, 2010 22:10:52	Something to make me want to play more divine characters. I've made one paladin (who basically worshiped himself(Blood of Vol and Dragonmark in Eberron)), and the runepreist may inspire me, but other wise I am bored by what is presented in most divine classes. It is my least favorite source, and I'd like to see something that sparks my interest.
#12 Omni-Wyvernil Mar 09, 2010 23:22:16	I want to see a Cleric or Avenger build for a Dark Age of Camelot Friar Tuck: Staff, robes, some healing, hard striking. I know that an Avenger is the divine striker, but the Avenger's fluff is too angry for a jovial friar, who should inherit some smidgeon of the Francis of Assissi schtick. He should drink hard (and fight hard when necessary to defend the weak) but also heal the sick, help the poor and sit under an aplle tree with rabbits and songbirds. A friar is hard to build now, because clerics need heavy armour and avengers cannot heal. Hybrids suck and clerical healing is strength based. Also, there is not much love for staves. Perhaps they'll introduce a Sacred Raiment feat that gives a divine class his WIS bonus to AC while wearing cloth (which would mainly help out Invokers and laser Clerics, who fit the 'squishy' priest archetype just fine). Of course, this might prove too effective for Avengers (who use cloth armor anyway), similar to how Hide Armor Expertise was considered too strong. Of course, cloth doesn't have as much in the way of options as hide, so it might need the help.
#13 undrave Mar 09, 2010 23:23:11	I'd like a more scholarly take on the Cleric, as represented by Intelligence as a secondary stat. Perhaps this particular build would focus on debuffing enemies as he calls upon the knowledge provided by divine texts to help "divine" the enemies weaknesses. (*hur hur I am funny*) Com'on! We already got that pansy Shielding Cleric last time! Me want great Strength options!GRRR! Me like smashing things!! Just throw Cleric a feat to apply their Charisma bonus IN ADDITION to INT or DEX when wearing Cloth Armor... that oughta convince some to play a clothed Cleric. Just make sure it doesn't stack with Unarmored Agility.
#14 Sea-Envy Mar 10, 2010 0:53:50	More domaines, we have Earth, sea and storm but nothing for gods of fire or air I would like to see feats or a paragon path for invokers and rune preists since invokers have a side focus in words of power I would like to see a big attack that triggers when you drop to 0hp, would work best for paladins and avengers but it would not be out of left feild for the others to make a final strike as they fall. maybee some utility buffs that are used during a short rest as you preach and inspire your allies for the battle ahead ( dailies of course ) And of course paladins mount and some option for people who worship a god that uses a bow. I wouldn't even play a paladin with a mount it,s just so iconic that it should exist. Maybee a feat or paragon path that lets a multiclass or hybrid avenger / paladin challenge and oath as the same action.
#15 undrave Mar 10, 2010 1:40:12	More domaines, we have Earth, sea and storm but nothing for gods of fire or air. Definately a Flame Domain and Wind Domain. I also can't help but think there should be a Travel Domain. A God of Travel is a fairly standard mythological figure (like Hermes/Mercury) and its something fitting for Avandra and all Adventurers like safe travel. Though I guess Power of Travel would probably feel like Power of Wilderness but with a different skill bonus...
#16 Litigation Mar 10, 2010 20:33:32	Second power is the punishment. Immediate Interrupt, marked enemy makes attack that does not include you, deal 1 + Wisdom or Charisma modifier radiant damage. Increase to 5 at 11th level and 10 at 21st level. If you are adjacent to the triggering target, increase damage to 5 / 10 / 15 + Wisdom or Charisma. Strongly disagree. It should stay a no-action as it is right now, but specify whether it happens before or after the attack is resolved. Right now, the fact that the damage takes no action is the main strength of the Paladin's mark. He's the only defender who can still defend while dazed, and also has free rein of his immediate actions. Immediate-action powers can even pile extra damage and effects on top of the DC punishment. A no-action punishment is also why mass-DS powers are so good; all enemies can eat damage that round. All this makes up for the fact that the DC damage itself is well behind that of a melee basic.
#17 Neutronium_Dragon Mar 10, 2010 23:59:52	> There seems to be a disconnect between the flavor and mechanics of the class, I don't think there's a disconnect between the intended flavor, but I get the feeling that references to 'runes' create an unintended notion that they're scholars rather than holy warriors - the runepriest seems conceptually closest to the paladin rather than to the wizard.
#18 undrave Mar 11, 2010 2:42:23	I want Avenger powers that ACTUALLY enfore the so-called 'secondary leader' role of the Commanding Avenger. I'm not really seeing it so far. The Commanding Avenger just uses his allies to get bonuses, rarely helping THEM in return.
#19 Duskweaver Mar 11, 2010 8:31:07	but I get the feeling that references to 'runes' create an unintended notion that they're scholars rather than holy warriors It's not so much the references to runes, but the references to them living in hidden libraries and favouring deities of knowledge and artistry. Anyway, while I do quite like the runepriest now that I've got PHB3 and can see what they're actually like firsthand, I still can't get past the fact that they're really this guy. Consequently, I'm having real difficulty seeing anyone other than a (Warhammer) dwarf actually being a runepriest. So I'd like to see something in DP2 explaining why runepriests use Strength primarily and can easily dump their mental ability scores, and something explaining how the rune magic they practice is completely different from the rune magic of Warhammer dwarves.
#20 malcolm_northwinter Mar 12, 2010 12:19:47	so far as I can tell, the Power Books have each had 4 classes in them.  Could it be possible that said books will continue this trend?  Maybe we won't get a new cleric build in the next one and get a runepriest build instead?  after all, the cleric is already getting a new build in the red box coming up.  Could be the same for arcane/warlocks and primal/barbarians with Artificers and seekers respectively.
#21 Lord_Ventnor Mar 12, 2010 13:09:09	so far as I can tell, the Power Books have each had 4 classes in them.  Could it be possible that said books will continue this trend?  Maybe we won't get a new cleric build in the next one and get a runepriest build instead?  after all, the cleric is already getting a new build in the red box coming up.  Could be the same for arcane/warlocks and primal/barbarians with Artificers and seekers respectively. Arcane Power had 5 classes in it, Swordmage included.
#22 ignis_fatuus Mar 12, 2010 14:40:57	In the avenger wishlist thread I started a while ago, the following seemed the most popular demands: An at-will that is an MBA or can be charged with An at-will with a dex rider that doesn't suck A couple +striker Paragon Paths Minor or off-turn encounter daily attack powers/stances
#23 Janx_14 Mar 12, 2010 23:04:59	so far as I can tell, the Power Books have each had 4 classes in them.  Could it be possible that said books will continue this trend?  Maybe we won't get a new cleric build in the next one and get a runepriest build instead?  after all, the cleric is already getting a new build in the red box coming up.  Could be the same for arcane/warlocks and primal/barbarians with Artificers and seekers respectively. Arcane Power had 5 classes in it, Swordmage included. Yeah, the reason why the other powerbooks only had 4 classes in each is because all the power sources but arcane had 4 classes at the time. I'm guessing that Arcane Power didn't include the artificer due to only coming out like a month after the Eberron Player's Guide.
#24 Ravenmancer Mar 13, 2010 1:25:05	I'm guessing that Arcane Power didn't include the artificer due to only coming out like a month after the Eberron Player's Guide. Before.  Artificers didn't get in Arcane Power because they weren't published until after AP already came out.
#25 toryn Mar 13, 2010 1:35:25	I would like to see another melee basic attack for the paladin (similar to Virtuous Strike from DP) that is Str-based rather than Cha-based. Oh, and more daily powers with the reliable keyword for lower levels.
#26 malcolm_northwinter Mar 13, 2010 12:38:03	so far as I can tell, the Power Books have each had 4 classes in them.  Could it be possible that said books will continue this trend?  Maybe we won't get a new cleric build in the next one and get a runepriest build instead?  after all, the cleric is already getting a new build in the red box coming up.  Could be the same for arcane/warlocks and primal/barbarians with Artificers and seekers respectively. Arcane Power had 5 classes in it, Swordmage included. *Grabs AP and looks quickly*  Well, I stand corrected.  Cool, Looking forward to some new builds then.