With Divine Power just around the corner
what are people expecting to see?
what things would they like to see?
There will be Domains, Channel Divinity Feats and Domain Feats.
There is a general idea of what might be in there based of Martial Power and Arcane Power, but any other thoughts or ideas?
I'd also like to see alternate marking options for the Paladin, give up Divine Challenge for something else, maybe something not CHA-based but WIS-based or STR-based...
Something for Avengers and Invokers that might actually make me care that they exist would be nice too. Right now they're just a total waste of ink and paper to me...
I am particularly keen to see what they come up with for the Paladin and Cleric variants, both of which seem rather "standard" at the moment.
Hopefully the Cleric will have options instead of turn undead.
I'd like to see Paladin's mount return, possibly in a mount focused class variant (somewhat like the Beast Ranger)
I also want to see interesting paragon path and paragon multiclassing feats for these.
I am curious to see how domains and domain feats work and am a little skeptical on the channel divinity feats, I have been a little underwhelmed by the current ones in general.
I have to agree with you regarding Invokers and Avengers, they haven't grabbed me much either.
Paladin:
Cavalier Paladin: A build oriented around charges and mounted combat. The paladin's mount/divine companion may be included here. Focusing the build on charges (with some extra bonuses for being mounted) will help its utility in situations where it isn't practical to ride a horse, such as cramped dungeons.
Blackguard Paladin: A darker build of paladin focused on necrotic damage and debuffing enemies. The flavor will be tweaked so it's suitable for not only followers of evil deities, but some unaligned deities like the Raven Queen. This may be handled through a set of feats allowing the paladin to change the damage type of his attacks rather than an entire build, though.
Cleric:
So far, the current cleric builds cover gods of war and justice (battle cleric) and gods of light and healing (devoted cleric). Domains, depending on how they're set up, may go a long way toward setting apart followers of other deities, but a few more builds may help in this regard.
Nature Cleric: A follower of one of the gods that interact with the natural world, such as Melora, Kord, or Sehanine. Will involve more elemental attacks (lightning, thunder, cold) than radiant attacks, and focus on buffs.
Death Cleric: A follower of one of the darker gods that represent shadows and death, such as the Raven Queen, Vecna, or Lolth. Suitable for both evil and unaligned clerics, this will be a more debuff-focused, semi-controller build with necrotic, shadow, and poison attacks.
Avenger:
Ranged Avenger: The avenger's abilities could be rounded out by a 'divine archer' build that focuses on crossbow use.
Invoker:
Covenant of Lore: For the invoker whose calling is that of a lorekeeper or archivist for the gods. May involve abilities that add the invoker's INT score to defense rolls against enemies, representing his divine knowledge.
What do you think?
I would like some new powers for the Avenger that have the radiant keyword, and probably a few polymorph-angelic powers to boot.
Cleric wise, New Wis Melee based Attack powers, a battle cleric as presented in the phb1 really doesn't work all that well in my honest opinion. I mean, you had to have str maxed but you needed con for hp/surges so you could stay in melee, (unless your in FR or Scales of War and you take a background that uses another stat for hp totals.) which meant you are now taking away even more from wisdom which is of course the stat that applies your healing. So yes wisdom based melee attack powers for the improvement.
There needs to be more ranged powers that offer healing or some kind of bonus to allies. In the early parts of the game you only have your healing word and that is rarely ever enough, especially in a stupid party that would rather beg you for healing that you don't have so they don't have to spend a standard action to use Second Wind.
Paladin is probably as bad off as Avenger, and I'd love to see some better options provided. The idea of a ranged-weapon Cleric is great. It would, of necessity, play significantly differently than the current options. I'd rather not see a ranged Avenger. If it's in there, so be it; but I don't expect it, nor do I desire it. I'd rather they fix what we have than branch out into another build altogether.
Different Channel Divinity options would be great. Worshipers of Selune (FR), for instance, having CD abilities that affect Lycanthropes, or followers of the Path of Light (Eberron) having CD abilities related to combating Immortals, would make tons of sense. Many faiths have little to do with battling undead, afterall.
Those are a few of the things I'd love to see. MP and AP have been very good, but Divine Power worries me. I think this is because I actually like some of the Divine classes for the first time, but fear that their deficiencies (in my eyes) won't be adequately addressed. I'm probably wrong. 4E's been amazing, thus far, and I should probably have a little more faith in the Devs.
Blackguard Paladin: A darker build of paladin focused on necrotic damage and debuffing enemies. The flavor will be tweaked so it's suitable for not only followers of evil deities, but some unaligned deities like the Raven Queen. This may be handled through a set of feats allowing the paladin to change the damage type of his attacks rather than an entire build, though.
Death Cleric: A follower of one of the darker gods that represent shadows and death, such as the Raven Queen, Vecna, or Lolth. Suitable for both evil and unaligned clerics, this will be a more debuff-focused, semi-controller build with necrotic, shadow, and poison attacks.
I hope we get neither of these.
The current Cleric and Paladin classes work with characters of any alignment. Creating builds made specifically for evil characters is just as bad as creating builds made specifically for good characters. Remember that classes no longer have alignment restrictions for exactly this reason, they're bad design no matter what direction they're in.
I hope we get neither of these.
The current Cleric and Paladin classes work with characters of any alignment. Creating builds made specifically for evil characters is just as bad as creating builds made specifically for good characters. Remember that classes no longer have alignment restrictions for exactly this reason, they're bad design no matter what direction they're in.
The darker builds Omni-Wyvernil mentioned do not necessarily have to have any alignment restrictions. The anti paladin is a classic D&D character and the divine power book should definetly have a few things throw in there to help players tailor their character that way through feats or new powers. I like the idea of a few necrotic and debuffer powers that paladins or clerics could pick up and use.
The anti paladin is a classic D&D character
Yes, but in 4E, with the removal of alignment restrictions and disassociation of "radiant" damage as having anything at all to do with good or evil, the Paladin and Anti-Paladin are one in the same. The 4E Paladin class already covers them both, and so there's no need for anything additional for the Anti-Paladin concept. In fact, it'd specifically be counter productive.
my wants...
Options that help support Evil clerics would be nice. PP's and Epic Destinies would be handy.
A bow cleric would be good.
New Oath's and Censure's for Avenger's would be good, an Oath that works with Ranged attacks or just Reach weapons would be nice. I don't see any major problems with the power selection for Avenger's though.
-edit
To clarify, I feel that the choice of powers is fine, but in some cases it is inverse to what is suggested (Isolation powers suit Persuit avengers more and vice versa).
Have to ask Crimson, what's wrong with Avenger's and Invokers.
Nothing's really wrong with them. I just don't care about them. They don't inspire me at all. And it's not even because they're new classes, because I definitely like the Warlord and Shaman and Warden, and they're new. It's just my opinion that they're kind of lame, and I wish Divine Power would give them something that interests me so that I might actually care that they exist. :P
Options that help support Evil clerics would be nice. PP's and Epic Destinies would be handy.
PPs and Epic Destinies I could understand and even totally get behind, but I'm still against class features or build options...
I personally, would like to see the Paladin's mount in divine power, but can understand that it might difficult to model mechanically. Some other things I desire:
An "Archivist" style invoker that studies the power of the gods.
Paladin powers that work on a charge (and hopefully that synergize with mounts).
Avenger powers that do the same
DC boosting feats
A wide variety of domains and associated domain feats
Channel divinity feats for evil gods
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090615b
Edit: AAGGGHHHH!
As for a few other notes:
DC needs to be fixed via errata for the PHB1. Namely, remove the ill-conceived engagement clause and up the damage to 5/10/15 + CHA. Feats and powers that work with DC in Divine Power are welcome, encouraged and expected, but they should be honest-to-god extra options, not feat taxes to solve ongoing problems.
Hopefully one of the new Paladin builds involves an alternate mark Straladins can actually be effective with.
Mounts are probably best handled a la familiars in Arcane Power.
Nothing's really wrong with them. I just don't care about them. They don't inspire me at all. And it's not even because they're new classes, because I definitely like the Warlord and Shaman and Warden, and they're new. It's just my opinion that they're kind of lame, and I wish Divine Power would give them something that interests me so that I might actually care that they exist. :P
any suggestions?
I love avengers, especially isolating avengers, the psychology involved their playstyle is brilliant.
any suggestions?
I love avengers, especially isolating avengers, the psychology involved their playstyle is brilliant.
I've played an avenger a little, and I think they're a great idea and fun to play at lower levels. But, I keep looking at feat selections for paragon and epic tiers and thinking "boy, I wish I could qualify for that weapon feat with my 22 Wis and 20 Int... and 10 Str". I'm seriously hoping they have decent melee combat feats that don't rely on Str at all.
any suggestions?
Not really. Not being boring would help, but I'm not really sure how to elaborate on that. :P
The new paladin build is called the "virtuous paladin." The new invoker build is called the "malediction invoker."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090615b
Edit: AAGGGHHHH!
Those are all Paragon paths.....not builds.
-Channel Divinity: Summon Astral Mount
-Powers with kickers when mounted but that be used nonetheless.
-Lots of love for non-optimal races
-Pally and Clerics getting LOTS of pages and feats, MORE than the other two by a wide margin. Those two feel like prototypical classes rather than the fine tuned PHB2 classes and need lots of help!
-More Cleric dailies with long standing effects that can be real contenders to Beacon of Hope!!
Those are all Paragon paths.....not builds.
I doubt that, but we'll see.
Those are all Paragon paths.....not builds.
I don't get that impression since I can't think of any Paragon paths that includes the class in their name. Plus it fits the current Paladin naming pattern:
Avenging Paladin
Protecting Paladin
Virtuous Paladin
-Pally and Clerics getting LOTS of pages and feats, MORE than the other two by a wide margin. Those two feel like prototypical classes rather than the fine tuned PHB2 classes and need lots of help!
I was right with you until here. Clerics do need some love, but Paladin and Avenger need a lot of attention. I know we're not going to see a reconceptualizing of these classes, but it feels nearly that bad, at times. Major errata (never going to happen) or Divine Power are our best hopes to help these two. Invoker's pretty good, but deserves just as much attention as the rest.
There are plenty of pages to go around with only four classes to address. There's no need for Paladin and Cleric to be all greedy. ;)
Those are all Paragon paths.....not builds.
I dunno; they previewed builds when Martial Power and Arcane Power were coming out. I'm going to bet they're new builds for those classes. I reserve the right to be wrong.
I dunno; they previewed builds when Martial Power and Arcane Power were coming out. I'm going to bet they're new builds for those classes. I reserve the right to be wrong.
Well then I will be VERY VERY happy if they are builds! I want to see the Invoker one. What I REALLY want to see is their new At-Will power called "Mantle Of Infidel"!!
I figured they would have been Paragons as the Avenger preview was.
Just want to add Deity specific stuff is a waste of paper: let everything be wildly available so we aren't stuck with just 1 or 2 new things a given divine character can use.
They're not deity specific, they're domain specific so they match any pantheon you want.
- If there's only one new paladin build, it will probably be based on Strength. As mentioned before, STR paladins could use some more meat. Perhaps it will be a charge-oriented build (with mounts available as an optional channel divinity feat which provides a bonus to these powers).
- Domains may be supplemented by domain-based paragon paths (or epic destinies) which allow divine characters to focus more on their deity's specific portfolio.
- Seeing things like the "malediction invoker" and "avatar of death" suggests that there will indeed be some 'darker' divine builds in the book. Dark priests are as much a fantasy staple as holy prophets, after all.
I hope Paladin and Cleric get TWO new build each. The other two can get one each with an 'aerialist rogue' style one where its still the same class features but a new focus.
They really should have put a class feature that differentiated "Aerialist rogue" from the "trickster rogue". I'd expect the same if a paladin or cleric gained any new builds.
What's up with all the female paladins and avengers? The artwork for the Divine Power previews consists entirely of skinny young women except for one dwarf. A bit over the top. :P
Cool hope there is lots of female invokers too!! :D
What I don't love is the current situation with Clerics and Paladins having two attack stats each. Every time I look at the Warpriest PP, a dark cloud passes overhead. Beautiful PP features--exactly what I'd hope for if I could wish for the perfect PP. Iconic concept.
And basically worthless, unless you want to play an Avenger MC Cleric. Don't get me wrong, that class/PP combo is beautiful... I'd just really love to be able to play a melee cleric who could properly use the PP.
What's up with all the female paladins and avengers? The artwork for the Divine Power previews consists entirely of skinny young women except for one dwarf. A bit over the top. :P
I dunno, that virtuous paladin has a male counterpart, and they both look pretty buff. The other paladin (illustrating Feats) has some curves on her. Unless by "skinny" you mean "not overweight", in which case I should point out that in a quasi-medieval society people are generally very active physically and don't eat any industrially processed frankenfoods. Only the idle rich get fat. As for "young", well adventuring is a dangerous business and not everyone lives to a ripe old age. I'll give you the "women" part though, but I'm guessing that's just random - they didn't know which parts of the book would be getting previews when they were handing out the art assignments.
The unrealistic part is the amount of pretty faces (on men as well...), but that's the nature of illustration - there's this idea floating around that a book full of ugly people wouldn't sell. :P
If that become possible, you are able to choose deity-related feats and items because you want them and not only because you have no other choice.
My pelor-paladin has choosen "melora's tide" (refluffed to "pelor's curing light"). By RAW, I have no problem at the moment: I have not choosen any feat or item that requires pelor, yet.
If there are some nice domains that pelor have and melora don't, then I have a RAW-Problem: I can decide wheter to warship pelor or melora, but I can't choose from both.
At my table, that will be no problem (house-ruling), but I would like to see that become legal for all paladins at every table.
I'ts pitty that divine classes are limited by RAW to one deity.
I would like to see that divine classes are able to warship more than one deity (by the rules).
If that become possible, you are able to choose deity-related feats and items because you want them and not only because you have no other choice.
My pelor-paladin has choosen "melora's tide" (refluffed to "pelor's curing light"). By RAW, I have no problem at the moment: I have not choosen any feat or item that requires pelor, yet.
If there are some nice domains that pelor have and melora don't, then I have a RAW-Problem: I can decide wheter to warship pelor or melora, but I can't choose from both.
At my table, that will be no problem (house-ruling), but I would like to see that become legal for all paladins at every table.
I'ts pitty that divine classes are limited by RAW to one deity.
Will this do?
Your divine character gains access to the domains of his or her deity, which means you gain access to those domains' feats. Each divine domain has a divinity feat and a domain feat associated with it. These feats follow the normal rules for feat selection. If your character worships multiple deities with a common theme (such as the three gods of destiny, Avandra, Ioun, and the Raven Queen), you gain access to all their domains.
I only have problems with the phrase "a common theme".
Does Melora and Pelor share a "common theme"? I doubt.
Never the less, it is a good start to open the possibilities for divine characters
Thank you for the information.
I only have problems with the phrase "a common theme".
Does Melora and Pelor share a "common theme"? I doubt.
Never the less, it is a good start to open the possibilities for divine characters
Pelor is the god of the sun and agriculture and Melora is a nature goddess... I'm sure there's a link.
If anything the common link is Sehanine...she 'likes' them both, if you catch my drift ;)
Slightly OT, but: Avengers are a great class already. For those who want to toss out high damage numbers AND always hit with relatively high [W] weapons: that is just not going to happen.
I have a feeling that I inspired this with my snide comment about an Avenger build that "focuses on damage". I was half-joking. Only half-joking, because I do find them lacking; but it wasn't meant to be serious.
I agree we won't ever see a huge change in the Avenger's power selection, nor should we. They do need a damage boost, though. They simply struggle to do their job, at this point. That's a dead horse for another thread, though.
A Cleric of Selune (FR) who could Turn Lycanthropes, or a Cleric of the Silver Flame (Eberron) who could affect Evil Immortals, Lycanthropes, or whatnot would make a lot of sense. A campaign that focuses on fighting aberrant enemies would be a perfect place for an Avenger who Abjures Aberrants. So on and so forth...
While I'd love to see this, I don't expect it to be found in Divine Power. Maybe, just maybe, someday down the line we'll get this in Dragon. I'm not holding my breath, though.
I'd love to see feats that augment and/or change the focus of Abjure Undead/Rebuke Undead/Turn Undead-type powers.
A Cleric of Selune (FR) who could Turn Lycanthropes, or a Cleric of the Silver Flame (Eberron) who could affect Evil Immortals, Lycanthropes, or whatnot would make a lot of sense. A campaign that focuses on fighting aberrant enemies would be a perfect place for an Avenger who Abjures Aberrants. So on and so forth...
While I'd love to see this, I don't expect it to be found in Divine Power. Maybe, just maybe, someday down the line we'll get this in Dragon. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Well if you want to see it in Dragon you could always write it yourself!!
I think its a neat idea.
Well if you want to see it in Dragon you could always write it yourself!!
I think its a neat idea.
I'm glad you like the idea. Maybe there's hope for it gaining traction, so to speak.
I could write it myself and submit it to Dragon. I've never submitted anything for official consideration in the past, though, and the lazy approach of waiting for someone else to do it is so much easier. :P
I'll give it some thought. Who knows where an accepted submission could lead, afterall? Maybe forum-goers will be critiquing my Dragon articles, one day. ;)
It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see the ghost of "Vow of Poverty" showing up in the book. Not that I expect them to replicate the actual feat, but builds that reward a less equipped character than normal are a possibility. The term "Virtuous Paladin" is suggestive towards this theme, and it'd be a good reason to introduce a cloistered (cloth) cleric build.
I still want to see a cavalier (mounted) paladin build. That would be a real hook for DP.
On the other hand any and all Avenger paragon paths will be a waste of space. The lure of Caiphon is just too strong.
The main thing I want is an Avenger at-will that can be used as part of a charge.
i think they just answered your prayers, because I remember seeing this very power in one of the previews for the up and coming divine heroes 2 mini set.
i think they just answered your prayers, because I remember seeing this very power in one of the previews for the up and coming divine heroes 2 mini set.
Really? I only saw one at will for avengers that let you push a non-oathed target.
Link?
I would really like to see Avengers gone through with a fine-toothed comb. I really like the premise of the class, but it winds up being mechanically wonky- although, I admit that I haven't had a player choose one yet, so my experience is from my friends and I radomly playtesting things so we didn't trip over ourselves or waste too much time in a real session.
Really? I only saw one at will for avengers that let you push a non-oathed target.
Link?
my bad, I guess I must have gotten it confused with something else, I thought I saw something about being able to be used at the end of charge, maybe i was looking at something else.
The Divinity feat for Destruction is pretty good once you have encounter and daily powers where you're rolling several dice for the damage (say, 4 or more). Hopefully they're all about this solid: good utility, worth considering, but not ZOMG cheesy a la that of a certain god of war in the FR.
I just read the Domains Excerpt and was a bit disappointed. Access to more channel divinity powers, I guess thats good. The Domain feats are a little interesting, but I guess I was hoping for something a little more innovative. I wanted domains to shake up a clerics role and bring back the whole "I'm not that type of cleric" Oh well, it will add a bit more flavor which is never a bad thing.
We've seen exactly one domain so far, and it's one that PC clerics are unlikely to be using anyway, since it's apparently only in the portfolios of Gruumsh and Tharizdun. Way too early to be negative about them as a whole.
Besides, if you want to be "another type of cleric" in 4E, you've now got invokers and avengers, as well as the paladin. Between those classes, multiclassing, and eventually official hybrid rules, you should be able to make as different a god-talker as you want.
We've seen exactly one domain so far, and it's one that PC clerics are unlikely to be using anyway, since it's apparently only in the portfolios of Gruumsh and Tharizdun. Way too early to be negative about them as a whole.
Besides, if you want to be "another type of cleric" in 4E, you've now got invokers and avengers, as well as the paladin. Between those classes, multiclassing, and eventually official hybrid rules, you should be able to make as different a god-talker as you want.
What Rovin said plus we'll likely be getting new builds/alternate class features for all divine classes next month.
I'm excited about the domains. Its a good chance to spend some feats to get a better channel divinity than "divine fortune" for my cleric and a chance to buff my at-wills... not to mention a skill bonus!
Not to mention "Power choice" is yet another way of saying "I'm not that kind of cleric".
Personally, I don't believe there will be enough new domain specific powers to truly be that different. In 3rd edition, there was an entire 18 spells (or more if the cleric gained more than 2 domains) the cleric gained access to that most other clerics would not get, in addition to the domain's power.
So unless they specifically give certain powers bonuses for worshiping a god of a specific portfolio or a slew of domain based powers, I'm don't think the cleric won't feel much different. Basically they could make the portfolio worshiped by the cleric to be the build, kinda like a temptest fighter or a battlerager. Perhaps even going so far as to grant different class features based on the portfolios chosen.
Just because the system doesn't force you to thematically restrict your spells doesn't mean you can't make a thematic character; creating restricted options hurts more than it helps in the long run. To illustrate what I mean, imagine how less dynamic "Magic the Gathering" would be like if you could only use 1 color in a deck, or could only cast one card type per color (i.e. Red Instants and Green creatures).
Indeed, a cleric of "the storm god" might take aoe powers from themselves and a multiclass, while the cleric of "the farm god" might take every healing power they get their hands on.
Just because the system doesn't force you to thematically restrict your spells doesn't mean you can't make a thematic character; creating restricted options hurts more than it helps in the long run. To illustrate what I mean, imagine how less dynamic "Magic the Gathering" would be like if you could only use 1 color in a deck, or could only cast one card type per color (i.e. Red Instants and Green creatures).
I was referring more to actually granting builds/class features to clerics to bring them on the same level as pretty much every other class save paladins.Even wizard's have this notion with some powers from "arcane power". By granting a true build/class feature for clerics it would/could grant bonuses or alterations with a power based on said build. I know it already exists to a degree with the third ability score, such as paladins getting bonuses from powers based on their wisdom modifier and clerics getting them from their charisma modifier.
I'm just asking for something more clear cut to support the different builds so they don't feel the exact same. Otherwise, as is we have strange conceptions such as if I worship a god of death and destruction, why on earth can I heal just as good as a cleric who worships pelor due to healers lore?
Example, say clerics of a healing portfolio might gain healer's lore as a class feature and a cleric of war/destruction would get a small bonus to damage rolls with the diety's favorite weapon group. And have certain powers say at the bottom "If you have healer's lore this power can do this and other powers that say if you have the war/destruction domain, this power has this additional effect.
Besides, the notion of having to multiclass to gain a thematic difference between clerics powers is semi-ludicrous. "Oh i know you're the god of storm kord, but since there isn't many lightning or thunder cleric powers, I'm going to find a different way to control storms through an entirely different power source such as arcane/primal." The ability to be different should already be ingrained into the class. The rules already somewhat support it for evil clerics, altering their radiant damage powers for necrotic. The same should be allowed for a cleric of kord, converting the damage to lightning. There shouldn't be a need to multiclass to be thematic. But this is mostly due to the fact that divine power isn't out yet and we don't know what's in the book and that we only have a very small list of powers available for clerics in the phb and dragon magazine.
The rules already somewhat support it for evil clerics, altering their radiant damage powers for necrotic. The same should be allowed for a cleric of kord, converting the damage to lightning. There shouldn't be a need to multiclass to be thematic. But this is mostly due to the fact that divine power isn't out yet and we don't know what's in the book and that we only have a very small list of powers available for clerics in the phb and dragon magazine.
That actually isn't "by the rules". The rules state that the cleric does radiant damage. A suggestion is made that for evil clerics the DM may allow them to switch the damage to be necrotic. However this is not a part of the class. Doing it for lightning, fire, ice, or w/e is just as much by the rules as the necrotic one.
If anything, it's a bigger stretch to me to think that there would be clerics of Kord/Tempus/Bane/etc running around who *didn't* have some fighter multiclass, etc.
Personally, I don't have any issue with the idea of clerics multiclassing in order to differentiate themselves. In fact, it makes a lot of sense. As deities with interests in the arcane, it makes sense that Corellon, Ioun, Vecna, etc would have a high percentage of clerics who also had arcane training, for instance. Similarly, it stands to reason that Kord's clerics would likely undergo martial training. Expressing these through multiclass feats is very natural.
If anything, it's a bigger stretch to me to think that there would be clerics of Kord/Tempus/Bane/etc running around who *didn't* have some fighter multiclass, etc.
That makes sense, however going paragon wizard for thunderwave seems to be more far of a stretch for a cleric of kord. For a cleric of ioun that makes sense too. Then again you could just pick up the arcana skill and carry books around to represent your devotion to magic.
I don't think you understood my point. In general, to seem radically different from other peers of your class, one multiclasses. This is because in my experience most people don't want to burn 1-4 feats or more on multiclassing feats. It should be an option, not a necessity. The class in itself should offer a few options other than just power choice.
That actually isn't "by the rules". The rules state that the cleric does radiant damage. A suggestion is made that for evil clerics the DM may allow them to switch the damage to be necrotic. However this is not a part of the class. Doing it for lightning, fire, ice, or w/e is just as much by the rules as the necrotic one.
Its in the dmg, therefore is a rule. Sure it might be a "variant" rule, but this is pretty much the same as fumbles and critical successes and failures exist.
What I'm suggesting is that it does actually become part of the class depending on the diety's portfolio, rather than be based on a dm's whims. And perhaps by doing so, one day not all clerics will have to have turn undead and deal radiant damage, but a choice to interchange it with another thematic power/damage type.
What I'm suggesting is that it does actually become part of the class depending on the diety's portfolio, rather than be based on a dm's whims. And perhaps by doing so, one day not all clerics will have to have turn undead and deal radiant damage, but a choice to interchange it with another thematic power/damage type.
That is exactly what I would love to see. Something that allows my cleric to have something other than the same old healy holy light turner of undead stuff. But I suppose that in keeping the class to its role, changing these features could throw off that system.
That is exactly what I would love to see. Something that allows my cleric to have something other than the same old healy holy light turner of undead stuff. But I suppose that in keeping the class to its role, changing these features could throw off that system.
Changing the features wouldn't throw off the system. Every other leader class doesn't have healer's lore or turn undead, and they work just fine as leaders. I know the notion of undead killers and healing is largely associated with clerics, but other options should exist without the need to always spend feats to achieve a difference between clerics.
Thank you for the information.
I only have problems with the phrase "a common theme".
Does Melora and Pelor share a "common theme"? I doubt.
Never the less, it is a good start to open the possibilities for divine characters
It depends on how broad the common theme is
does "good" qualify as a common theme? how about "the elven pantheon"?
presumably there will be divine feats similar to some of the generic arcane ones
for example a Divine Implement Mastery feat
I for one would like to finally see Channel Divinity for the evil deities.
The domain feats will probably be the closest you'll get.
I would like to see more magic weapons that can be used as implements, perhaps diety specific? (in line with Pact Blade, Song Blades etc for arcane classes)
Aye me too
Would also like to see Divine Implement Proficiency feat.
Aye me too
Would also like to see Divine Implement Proficiency feat.
Totally agree
I wouldn't mind seeing some Wisdom based melee power options for Clerics (much like the Cha options for Bards)
For all you who want the Cleric to become something other than a Leader, you're never going to get that. You need to start looking at the Divine power source as a whole.
Heck, you don't even need to do that. You want to play a priest of a storm god? Make a Storm Sorcerer and call him a priest of a storm god. Priest of a god of fire? Infernal warlock might be right up your alley. so on, so forth.
Paladin and Cleric were always determined by their power choice since they didn't have alternate class abilities (Artificer is the same way). In fact, which Channel Divinity (or Healing Infusion) Power you use more often really was the only class-ability defining factor for these builds. For Cleric, it may be that they don't get a new class ability (they don't have an ability really to trade, I don't think). Paladins can trade out their Lay on Hands for Call of Virtue or Ardent Vow. That means 2 new builds for Paladin. Healer's Mercy sounds like a new Cleric Channel Divinity, most likely tied to the themes of the new build, but not necessarily required (just as the other Channel Divinity powers for Cleric and Paladin aren't required for each build). I wonder if "Ardent Vow" Paladin is absorbing the Psionic Ardent, in favour of the Psychic Warrior and Empath fulfilling the Defender and Leader roles respectively in PH3? Makes sense, Paladin is the closest thing to a Defender-Leader without going Hybrid-classing, and Ardent would pretty much be Paladin WITH PSIONICS!
Oh, and Avengers get a new Censure - Censure of Unity. I wonder what that build will be about? The feat points to it being about fighting in tandem with your allies - you get bonuses whenever an ally attack the target. The feat gives you Temporary Hit Points on top of that.
I can't wait!
I guess the Cleric and Paladin came out with the basic mechanics, since then alot of new mechanics came in.
I would like to see some Cleric/Paladin paragon paths as well.
It seems the main difference is the Paladin feature power and then power selection.
I am looking forward to seeing what they do for the Ardent Paldin Build which is focussed on offense
Depending on how much the bonus from tos is, LoH will most likely remove the worst effect and it grants healing.
VT + tos = one 100% saving throw + an additional saving throw. Good if you have more than one effect.
LoH + touch of salvation = a lesser VT + healing
Depending on how much the bonus from tos is, LoH will most likely remove the worst effect and it grants healing.
VT + tos = one 100% saving throw + an additional saving throw. Good if you have more than one effect.
Very good points
I wonder how they will do the Cleric builds.
There isn't really a class feature to swap out Channel Divinity feats and that options include Healing Word, Turn Undead, Healer's Mercy and Divine Fortune
It seems the Paladin gets to keep their Divine Challenge and Channel Divinity features and just swap out lay on hands
Interesting, it will be curious to see how it turns out
Very good points
I wonder how they will do the Cleric builds.
There isn't really a class feature to swap out Channel Divinity feats and that options include Healing Word, Turn Undead, Healer's Mercy and Divine Fortune
It seems the Paladin gets to keep their Divine Challenge and Channel Divinity features and just swap out lay on hands
Interesting, it will be curious to see how it turns out
Clerics could swap out Healer's Lore and Ritual Caster to gain some other benefits. It would make sense if you wanted to play a Cleric who's not the usual "holy light and healing" type of Cleric; you could switch out for something that grants bonuses to hit or buffs defenses or something. Ritual Caster is next to useless in battle anyway, so there's no reason for a Cleric of Kord or similar fighting-oriented deities to have Rituals.
Virtue's Touch >>> Lay on Hands. It's not even funny.
I'm the other way on this on. Mostly because no one is stuck with a status effect longer than a turn in my party 90% of the time.
Nothing was wrong with Lay on Hands, why didn't they fix/offer an alternative to Divine Challenge?
They did. There's a feat that removes the engagement clause, and that's pretty much all it needs for a Chaladin to remain competitive with the other defenders. As for a Strength alternative, I'm pretty sure they'll give one, but if not, the article mentions something called "Divine Sanction", which may be either a new Channel Divinity Feature, or possibly (though I doubt it) the new DC.
They did. There's a feat that removes the engagement clause, and that's pretty much all it needs for a Chaladin to remain competitive with the other defenders. As for a Strength alternative, I'm pretty sure they'll give one, but if not, the article mentions something called "Divine Sanction", which may be either a new Channel Divinity Feature, or possibly (though I doubt it) the new DC.
From what I can see inferred in the previews, they're going to rework Divine Challenge and make the whole Damage part of it a separate ability called Divine Sanction.
Divine challenge will then simply be Mark your enemy and apply Divine Sanction to them.
Divine Sanction will become an immediate reaction to when an enemy with Divine Sanction uses an attack that doesn't include the Paladin.
there is some great stuff coming out
New class features and mechanics for both the Cleric and Paladin
Paladin - Divine Sanction Class Feauture
This is in addition to (and complements) Divine Challenge and is a system for marking foes.
It doesn't require you to attack and allows options of marking multiple foes.
It deals Radiant Damage to Foes
- Persumably this is a way of marking when you attack
Cleric - There is an option to swap out Turn Undead channel divinity class feature for a Healers Mercy channel divinity class featurefor extra healing
There is also a Shielding Cleric build that focuses more on healing and buffs
Domain Feats add additional features for to Divine At-Will Powers