Just my thoughts.
IMO opinion, Templars and Elemental Clerics still were very much "Divine" in 2e, as 4e defines it. Especially since in 4e Divine power is just as likely to come from faith or philosophy as it is a god. Frankly, I see no reason why a 4e Cleric couldn't worship an Elemental or Primordial, or why an Avenger or Paladin couldn't fill in for a Templar (especially since in Keith Baker's Dark Sun chat, he admitted that the Avenger was originally named the Templar).
And an Invoker could be anything from the embodiment of the Elementals to the highest order of Templar to the last fragments of dead gods - if you follow the non-official theory that Athas orginially had gods that died off or were cut off from Athas (officially there was never a concrete position, but it was extremely heavily implied that there were never any gods, and that all god based Athasian religion followed non-existent beings).
In fact, the only reason Paladins were exempt from 2e Dark Sun was because they were too "goody-goody" or heroic for Athas (the same reasoning was used for Ravenloft, plus the Detect Good ability). Since 4e no longer has alignment restrictions, that is no longer an issue.
However, there is nothing Primal about 2e Templars, which very easily fit the 4e Divine mold.
While divine might have philosophical origins as well, that doesn't explain Invokers at all.
I personally was very unimpressed with the Spirits of the Past religion in Eberron, because I felt that that, by its own description, is really more like Primal reverence than Divine worship.
I believe that Elemental will probably satisfy people who wanted those "elemental" clerics, but I acknowledge that none of us know what is going to be in the Power Source, but for that same reason I wouldn't count it out.
As for Templars, I believe that they'll cover them satisfactory without Divine Power in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting book.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
+1 this.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
This can still work in Dark Sun. The Dragon Kings (worshipped as Gods) are actual individuals that you can walk up and talk to, touch, and even kill. They're the ones who selecct their Templars.
Even the Elemental Clerics had to undergo intense rituals in which they subsummed themselves entirely in their element. Earth Clerics would bury themselves alive, Fire Clerics set themselves on Fire, Air Clerics toss themselves off cliffs, or Water Clerics drown themselves. All to form a direct connection with the element they represented.
In Dark Sun, people have faith in what they can see and touch, so forging a compact with such an entity seems all the more accessible.
Easy. "Divine" power might not have a place on athas as a power source, which I agree with. But the content in divine power (classes, PP's, ED's, feats, etc.) can have a place if you want them to.
Or you can let wotc decide for you.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
But that doesn't apply to darksun, since there are no gods. Invokers could have a more personal relationship with the elements or the sorcererkings though. Its up to the players and DMs who change those classes to work on athas.
Cross out divine and write elemental. Change the fluff on the powers a bit and use different keywords instead of radiant or necrotic. More elemental keywords. Divine power CAN be used with darksun with very little changes. Change the fluff of divine classes to better fit darksun's elemental worship or service to a sorcererking.
Easy. "Divine" power might not have a place on athas as a power source, which I agree with. But the content in divine power (classes, PP's, ED's, feats, etc.) can have a place if you want them to.
Or you can let wotc decide for you.
Of course. It's your game. However, that shipped has sailed. Official 4e fluff is that Divine doesn't exist in 4e Dark Sun. I would wait two years for Elemental and see where that takes you.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
So change the fluff for invokers to be the same as clerics et al. Problem solved.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
So change the fluff for invokers to be the same as clerics et al. Problem solved.
Well, then we might as well rule that Gods still exist in Dark Sun, now that we're changing fluff left and right. It's your game, so you can do what you want. But if we're going to debate the official setting, we need to look to canon. I despise the fact that Spirits of the Past was made a religion and not an Eberron-elven variation on the Spirit Way. But I accept it as what WotC decided for 4e Eberron. WotC also said "no Divine" in Dark Sun, and while you may dislike it or even reject it in your version of it, if we're going to debate whether Divine powers exist in Dark Sun or not, there's only one answer: canon says there aren't.
WotC also said "no Divine" in Dark Sun, and while you may dislike it or even reject it in your version of it, if we're going to debate whether Divine powers exist in Dark Sun or not, there's only one answer: canon says there aren't.
4e canon says there isn't. 2e canon says there is. That's the problem. WotC is directly contradicting earlier editions. It's their right, and it's almost certainly not going to change. But it's still an issue.
I think in terms on canon we have to go with the most current version. Arguing between 2 editions different versions of Canon wont get us anywhere.
It will be interesting to see what replaces Divine within Darksun.
Psionic and primal, both have leaders, controlers, strikers and defenders. Martial too (except for controler). In a couple of years Shadow and Elemental wil join the Dark Sun C.S.
Cross out divine and write elemental. Change the fluff on the powers a bit and use different keywords instead of radiant or necrotic. More elemental keywords. Divine power CAN be used with darksun with very little changes. Change the fluff of divine classes to better fit darksun's elemental worship or service to a sorcererking.
Easy. "Divine" power might not have a place on athas as a power source, which I agree with. But the content in divine power (classes, PP's, ED's, feats, etc.) can have a place if you want them to.
Or you can let wotc decide for you.
Of course. It's your game. However, that shipped has sailed. Official 4e fluff is that Divine doesn't exist in 4e Dark Sun. I would wait two years for Elemental and see where that takes you.
So, wotc knows best, huh? I don't tend to let them make decisions for me beyond what I "can't" control. (like what gets published) As for waiting 2 years to be able to use something that should be included upon release? Not gonna happen with me again. Wotc already did that to me with Eberron and psionics. I'm refluffing DP for Darksun use. When Elemental power comes out (if) then I'll see what I and my gaming pals think, see what we can change or drop from DP that EP will replace.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
Wrong. That's true for Clerics, Paladins, and Avengers, but Invokers are different.
I quote,
"Where clerics, avengers, and paladins embrace the
gods through holy rites, indoctrination, and investiture,
the invoker transcends mortal limitations and
forges a compact with the god directly."
~Robert J. Schwalb, Invoker Essentials: Secrets of Holy Might, Dragon #383.
So change the fluff for invokers to be the same as clerics et al. Problem solved.
Well, then we might as well rule that Gods still exist in Dark Sun, now that we're changing fluff left and right. It's your game, so you can do what you want. But if we're going to debate the official setting, we need to look to canon. I despise the fact that Spirits of the Past was made a religion and not an Eberron-elven variation on the Spirit Way. But I accept it as what WotC decided for 4e Eberron. WotC also said "no Divine" in Dark Sun, and while you may dislike it or even reject it in your version of it, if we're going to debate whether Divine powers exist in Dark Sun or not, there's only one answer: canon says there aren't.
And when wotc starts running official DS games, 4e canon will be a priority. Otherwise, what wotc puts in the books is a foundation to be built upon, changes or thrown out.
That is some of the most exciting news I've heard in a long time and completely restores my faith in WoTC's ability to build worlds.
This gives me hope for the races as well.
If this proves to be true - I'll be picking up the Dark Sun books without even reading through them first.
I was not aware that WoTC was removing the Divine Power source from Dark Sun.
That is some of the most exciting news I've heard in a long time and completely restores my faith in WoTC's ability to build worlds.
This gives me hope for the races as well.
If this proves to be true - I'll be picking up the Dark Sun books without even reading through them first.
Good show Medhia Nox.
I must remind everybody (as I did on the Dark Sun Forums) that we have not seen the entire and official rules of the 4e DS Campaign Setting, and how they all work together. So far we've been given small teasers of what and how things are going to work, but not the full story as to how they all balance the setting together. Don't get so worked up about "OMG!!! No Divine Power Source!!! All is ruined!!!" Let's wait and see how it all works together when the books come out. Until then, let's enjoy the teases and save the "WotC have @#%!'ed it all up" when the official prints come out in August.
WotC also said "no Divine" in Dark Sun, and while you may dislike it or even reject it in your version of it, if we're going to debate whether Divine powers exist in Dark Sun or not, there's only one answer: canon says there aren't.
4e canon says there isn't. 2e canon says there is. That's the problem. WotC is directly contradicting earlier editions. It's their right, and it's almost certainly not going to change. But it's still an issue.
Also the 3e update that came in Dragon Magazine. Clerics just had to pick one elemental domain and one other, and they were good to go.
I was not aware that WoTC was removing the Divine Power source from Dark Sun.
That is some of the most exciting news I've heard in a long time and completely restores my faith in WoTC's ability to build worlds.
This gives me hope for the races as well.
If this proves to be true - I'll be picking up the Dark Sun books without even reading through them first.
Good show Medhia Nox.
I must remind everybody (as I did on the Dark Sun Forums) that we have not seen the entire and official rules of the 4e DS Campaign Setting, and how they all work together. So far we've been given small teasers of what and how things are going to work, but not the full story as to how they all balance the setting together. Don't get so worked up about "OMG!!! No Divine Power Source!!! All is ruined!!!" Let's wait and see how it all works together when the books come out. Until then, let's enjoy the teases and save the "WotC have @#%!'ed it all up" when the official prints come out in August.
Thank you. This is what I'm trying to say. People are jumping at the gun, saying that WotC don't know what they're doing, removing Divine Power from Dark Sun. But the reality is, WE don't know what they're doing, because a lot is hushed up. We need to see what they do with Dark Sun, what they do with Elemental Power, how Dark Sun relates to Primal Power, etc before we can really make statements for or against the rulings. Personally, I'm inclinded to trust WotC to pull through. I may not always agree with them (I hated their ruling on Spirits of the Past, to repeat my example), but as it is an organic, player and DM driven game, that's something I have the right as the DM to modify if I so choose to. But to write 4e Dark Sun off because you disagree with a ruling shows… I feel what I was going to say was offensive, so I won't say it.
Also, Primal power taking the place of divine isn't "gellin" with me either. Primal certainly has a place in darksun, but its not a substitute for elemental power. This is why I say to simply reflavor and rework divine power into an elemental resource as a temporary fix. This way, we will get "elemental" clerics, instead of primal shamans. It's what I plan to do anyway. Disconnecting divine classes from their original power source and reworking them to fit an elemental theme.
I don't know about everyone else. But the loss of a power source isn't a big deal to me. Its the loss of everything else that I'm not too keen on. Clerics are a must for athas. Athasian Invokers and Avengers would be very interesting. Athasian paladins who work for the elemental religions or sorcererkings also seem interesting.
Also, Primal power taking the place of divine isn't "gellin" with me either. Primal certainly has a place in darksun, but its not a substitute for elemental power. This is why I say to simply reflavor and rework divine power into an elemental resource as a temporary fix. This way, we will get "elemental" clerics, instead of primal shamans. It's what I plan to do anyway. Disconnecting divine classes from their original power source and reworking them to fit an elemental theme.
Primal Power taking the place of Divine isn't "gelling" because you're thinking of the generic 4e rules as they stand now for the generic D&D worlds. Dark Sun is an entirely different campaign from all others before it in the 4e universe thus far. Like I said previously, let's see how it all "gels" together in the official release of the campaign setting. With a world so vastly different from anything else, you certainly can't expect everything to remain the same. I certianly wouldn't want a Dark Sun that feels and plays like a Forgotten Realms or Ebberon setting. I want Dark Sun to feel and play like Athas and if that means dropping a power source for another, then so be it. They're experienced game designers. They wouldn't do something so drastic if it didn't make sense or end up unbalanced. I for one am excited with the changes they're making and I certianly can't wait to play on Athas again.
But just because I fully intend to love 4e Dark Sun, it does not stop me from saying that WotC is definitely making a mistake, becuase the Divine Source most definitely did exist in Dark Sun. Just like I think they made a mistake making Eladrin the Sun/Moon Elves of FR, which thankfully was not repeated with Eberron. But that doesn't stop me from liking 4e FR.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
The approval of the gods might not be a requirement to maintain divine power, though alignment restrictions suggest it might be a requirement to receive the ritual investment in the first place (fluff suggests that as part of their ritual Avengers might be tested by a deific aspect). That aside, just because 4e gods can't strip people of divine powers does not mean that the existence of the gods is not still important. Athas, is a world where the well spring of divine power is dry, because the gods up and left, taking all their toys with them.
Could WotC have just reflavored divine powers? Sure, but there's merit to just removing it whole sale. Where as worlds like Eberron have distant gods that may or may not exist, Athas is a place where the gods explicitly left the world to rot. Reflavoring as elemental priests would step on the toes of the planned Elemental power source. Tying it to the sorcerer kings is also not quite right either, as while they are the most powerful beings in Athas, they're not anywhere near the semi-omnipotent gods of other setting, being more akin to the power level of a Demon Prince or Archdevil. Also, those that draw power from them would likely have more in common with a warlock's pact than any kind of divine power. Finally there is the whole problem of most of them being EVIL, while PCs are typicaly suposed to be the HEROES.
In the end the removal of the divine source is a sensible way to evoke the proper tone, a world abandoned by the gods. Any attempts to include or reflavor the power source would erode that concept and/or step on the toes of other power sources and classes. Athas is after all something of a backwards world of sorts, ruled by powerful demons lords and where those few that still pray to the gods are seen as insane cultists.
On a closing note, IIRC, WotC has merely said that divine powers are unknown in Athas. They might exist, but for the most part no one knows how to tap them. Some great hero (PC) might show up wielding such power, but he would likely be a unique entity in the world. Their would be no churches of fellow believers (though an obscure cult might exist) and they might well be viewed as the greatest threat imaginable by the sorcerer kings as there mere existence might herald the return of the gods (which is likely the only event the sorcerer kings fear as it would mean an end to there unchallenged dominance).
Don't get so worked up about "OMG!!! No Divine Power Source!!! All is ruined!!!" Let's wait and see how it all works together when the books come out.
For all we know, it might actually be stated in the Dark Sun CS something like this: "The Divine power source does not exist in Athas. All character classes that normally use the Divine power source instead use the Elemental power source. All powers with the Divine keyword instead have the Elemental keyword. The 'Channel Divinity' class feature is renamed 'Channel Elements'."
It might even continue: "Divine attack powers that normally deal radiant damage instead deal either fire, cold, lightning or thunder damage. Choose a damage type when you first gain access to the power. You can change the damage type of a power by retraining it when you level up."
There, I think that upped the Baseless Speculation Quotient of the thread a bit...
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
The approval of the gods might not be a requirement to maintain divine power, though alignment restrictions suggest it might be a requirement to receive the ritual investment in the first place (fluff suggests that as part of their ritual Avengers might be tested by a deific aspect). That aside, just because 4e gods can't strip people of divine powers does not mean that the existence of the gods is not still important. Athas, is a world where the well spring of divine power is dry, because the gods up and left, taking all their toys with them.
Could WotC have just reflavored divine powers? Sure, but there's merit to just removing it whole sale. Where as worlds like Eberron have distant gods that may or may not exist, Athas is a place where the gods explicitly left the world to rot. Reflavoring as elemental priests would step on the toes of the planned Elemental power source. Tying it to the sorcerer kings is also not quite right either, as while they are the most powerful beings in Athas, they're not anywhere near the semi-omnipotent gods of other setting, being more akin to the power level of a Demon Prince or Archdevil. Also, those that draw power from them would likely have more in common with a warlock's pact than any kind of divine power. Finally there is the whole problem of most of them being EVIL, while PCs are typicaly suposed to be the HEROES.
I'm not schvitzing over the loss of the Divine Power source either, but including it doesn't really cause that any issues.
In 2E, they easily reflavored it so that Dragon Kings and Elemental forces gave divine powers even though core fluff required gods. They did it in 3E, where there too you required the support of gods. Now, in 4E where the gods really aren't the ones directly giving and yanking powers away, it suddenly doesn't make sense?
4e Eberron already set the precedent for refluffed divine classes that can gain powers even though they don't worship a "god" (some of which may or may not exist as they are commonly known) and it's way less divergent than Dark Sun.
In the end the removal of the divine source is a sensible way to evoke the proper tone, a world abandoned by the gods. Any attempts to include or reflavor the power source would erode that concept and/or step on the toes of other power sources and classes. Athas is after all something of a backwards world of sorts, ruled by powerful demons lords and where those few that still pray to the gods are seen as insane cultists.
This, IMO, is the real justification. Lack of Divine Power of any kind makes it far easier to evoke a forsaken land. It's a radical change, but was done for the sake of a radical feel. Which I can respect.
Okay ... clearly some people here don't like reading. I don't know about others, but I sure as hell am not writing off 4e Dark Sun. I fully intend to buy it and love it. Just because I feel that WotC is making a mistake with regards to the Divine Source does not change that. I have never once said that they are ruining Dark Sun, and in fact I've been one of the people that most often defends the idea that WotC would allow in "non-Dark Sun" stuff like the other races. And frankly, I am irritated that anyone would even imply that I said anything otherwise.
But just because I fully intend to love 4e Dark Sun, it does not stop me from saying that WotC is definitely making a mistake, becuase the Divine Source most definitely did exist in Dark Sun. Just like I think they made a mistake making Eladrin the Sun/Moon Elves of FR, which thankfully was not repeated with Eberron. But that doesn't stop me from liking 4e FR.
I'm sorry again to sound like I'm attacking you. I didn't mean to point you in specific. There have been commentaries in the past about not using books because of small frustrations with them, like one class not being how the person wanted it or not, and that really bugs me, because it's discrediting the material for a single flaw, a flaw that's subjective, but may be important to them. I like that Eladrin are the Sun/Moon Elves of FR, and I dislike Spirits of the Past in Eberron as a Religion, and I like no Divine Power Source in Dark Sun. I dislike the concept of using cards for Gamma World, because of possible implications for Online play and it drifting towards forcing me to shell out more money on randomised items, like with Miniatures or MtG cards; I prefer it if I know what I'm buying, and I don't need to keep buying more and more exponentially to have more options linearly. That said, I like the Players Handbook Heroes Minatures, and the Limited Edition Orcus Miniature, because I know what I'm buying, and they found other ways to attract players to buy than randomised buy buy buy. Does this mean I resent WotC for discontinuing the PHH Miniatures line? No, though I'm a bit upset.
I'm glad to see you're not "done" with Dark Sun for 4e, though. I hope that Dark Sun will live up to most of our expectations for most of us. That's probably the most I can hope for, because it's not always going to live up to all of the expectations, and not for everyone. And as Duke said, we can always refluff Divine until Elemental comes out to be those Elemental Priests. IF that's the way Elemental Power is done, which is Wild Mass Guessing, at this point. So, I'm sorry to cause such a powerfully offended reaction; that was not my intent.
There's no reason there shouldn't be divine power in Dark Sun. The powers are gained through investiture and ritual; gods are not required.
The approval of the gods might not be a requirement to maintain divine power, though alignment restrictions suggest it might be a requirement to receive the ritual investment in the first place (fluff suggests that as part of their ritual Avengers might be tested by a deific aspect). That aside, just because 4e gods can't strip people of divine powers does not mean that the existence of the gods is not still important. Athas, is a world where the well spring of divine power is dry, because the gods up and left, taking all their toys with them.
Could WotC have just reflavored divine powers? Sure, but there's merit to just removing it whole sale. Where as worlds like Eberron have distant gods that may or may not exist, Athas is a place where the gods explicitly left the world to rot. Reflavoring as elemental priests would step on the toes of the planned Elemental power source. Tying it to the sorcerer kings is also not quite right either, as while they are the most powerful beings in Athas, they're not anywhere near the semi-omnipotent gods of other setting, being more akin to the power level of a Demon Prince or Archdevil. Also, those that draw power from them would likely have more in common with a warlock's pact than any kind of divine power. Finally there is the whole problem of most of them being EVIL, while PCs are typicaly suposed to be the HEROES.
I'm not schvitzing over the loss of the Divine Power source either, but including it doesn't really cause that any issues.
In 2E, they easily reflavored it so that Dragon Kings and Elemental forces gave divine powers even though core fluff required gods. They did it in 3E, where there too you required the support of gods. Now, in 4E where the gods really aren't the ones directly giving and yanking powers away, it suddenly doesn't make sense?
4e Eberron already set the precedent for refluffed divine classes that can gain powers even though they don't worship a "god" (some of which may or may not exist as they are commonly known) and it's way less divergent than Dark Sun.
In the end the removal of the divine source is a sensible way to evoke the proper tone, a world abandoned by the gods. Any attempts to include or reflavor the power source would erode that concept and/or step on the toes of other power sources and classes. Athas is after all something of a backwards world of sorts, ruled by powerful demons lords and where those few that still pray to the gods are seen as insane cultists.
This, IMO, is the real justification. Lack of Divine Power of any kind makes it far easier to evoke a forsaken land. It's a radical change, but was done for the sake of a radical feel. Which I can respect.
I dunno, a world without gods seems like a plus to me.
One of the current rumours about Templars is that they are nothing more than "Sorcerer King Pact Warlocks".
That could work, and be interesting. Like I said in my original post, my idea was based on what we knew. And however WoTC does this I'll be interested, most of my players were interested in Darksun anyhow so once it comes out we will probably do at least one game of that.
One of the current rumours about Templars is that they are nothing more than "Sorcerer King Pact Warlocks".
Thanks to D&D XP we actually now know that the Templars are actually a "theme". We don't know too much about what themes are yet, but you apparently get an extra encounter power at level 1 based on your theme. I'm assuming you get more later on as well.
Cool.