DMG 2 removes second wind from NPCs? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

DMG 2 removes second wind from NPCs?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
misterfido_dup
Aug 14, 2009 10:27:09 Just something I noticed, there are no stat blocks in the Monster Manual 2 or the Eberron Campaign Guide that include a second wind line.

I see this as meaning either A) Second Wind has been removed from NPCs in the updated rules yet to be released or B) The Eberron Campaign Guide contains NO class-based NPCs, nor does the MM2 contain any NPCs which received a template (like the MM mummy)

Considering all the adjustments the DMG2 makes to elites and solos, and considering that the NPC design rules are meant to create monster-like stats and difficulties and second wind upsets that somewhat, which do you think it is?

Speculate! Removed or coincidence?
#2
snarls_at_fleas
Aug 14, 2009 11:33:09 Have you seen such stat blocks in MM1 or FR? ;)
#3
Crimson_Concerto
Aug 14, 2009 12:02:03 Most monsters have never had Second Wind. They have healing surges, yes, but no way to use them.
#4
superdeadsmurf
Aug 14, 2009 12:02:31 Second wind is always pretty rare on NPCs anyway...
#5
misterfido_dup
Aug 14, 2009 12:25:00 I know it's rare, but NPCs--monsters built with player stats--have always had them.

The Sharn, Szass Tam, Manshoon in FRCG all have them. Various NPCs in the MM1 have them, including mummies and liches. No NPCs have them in Eberron, no NPCs have them in the Monster Manual 2.

The difference? The latter two books were developed at the same time as the new monster rule tweaks in the DMG2--and it's confirmed that there are tweaks.

All I'm saying is, I think that these tweaks might go beyond damage and defenses for elites/solos. It might extend to second winds for NPCs.
#6
Duskweaver
Aug 15, 2009 4:40:39 I agree, and I'm glad to see it go. NPCs shouldn't be wasting their standard actions on something that does nothing but make the encounter last longer. That's not fun.
#7
myt3m0w53
Aug 15, 2009 9:17:59
I agree, and I'm glad to see it go. NPCs shouldn't be wasting their standard actions on something that does nothing but make the encounter last longer. That's not fun.

:OMG! there on to 4.1 now!!!
#8
thekidofdnd
Aug 15, 2009 9:23:11 npcs will have surges:headexplo :headexplo :headexplo
#9
Duskweaver
Aug 15, 2009 13:03:55
there on to 4.1 now!!!

I'm not sure what point you're making in relation to my quoted post.

npcs will have surges

Of course they will. It's second wind we're talking about, not surges.

A vampire healing itself by jumping on one of the PCs and draining her blood is cool. An NPC just standing there doing nothing for a turn and getting back 1/4 of its ridiculous pile of HPs is not. It just makes the encounter last a few rounds longer with absolutely no increase in drama/challenge/fun/awesomeness.

Giving NPCs access to second wind was always a terrible idea.
#10
darth_azalin
Aug 16, 2009 6:59:44 I have always felt that every creature had a second wind. Very few had action points.

Since dming the 4.0 ruleset I have never used a second wind on a mob that the pcs were fighting. I do tend to use their APs when I can.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 misterfido_dup Aug 14, 2009 10:27:09	Just something I noticed, there are no stat blocks in the Monster Manual 2 or the Eberron Campaign Guide that include a second wind line. I see this as meaning either A) Second Wind has been removed from NPCs in the updated rules yet to be released or B) The Eberron Campaign Guide contains NO class-based NPCs, nor does the MM2 contain any NPCs which received a template (like the MM mummy) Considering all the adjustments the DMG2 makes to elites and solos, and considering that the NPC design rules are meant to create monster-like stats and difficulties and second wind upsets that somewhat, which do you think it is? Speculate! Removed or coincidence?
#2 snarls_at_fleas Aug 14, 2009 11:33:09	Have you seen such stat blocks in MM1 or FR? ;)
#3 Crimson_Concerto Aug 14, 2009 12:02:03	Most monsters have never had Second Wind. They have healing surges, yes, but no way to use them.
#4 superdeadsmurf Aug 14, 2009 12:02:31	Second wind is always pretty rare on NPCs anyway...
#5 misterfido_dup Aug 14, 2009 12:25:00	I know it's rare, but NPCs--monsters built with player stats--have always had them. The Sharn, Szass Tam, Manshoon in FRCG all have them. Various NPCs in the MM1 have them, including mummies and liches. No NPCs have them in Eberron, no NPCs have them in the Monster Manual 2. The difference? The latter two books were developed at the same time as the new monster rule tweaks in the DMG2--and it's confirmed that there are tweaks. All I'm saying is, I think that these tweaks might go beyond damage and defenses for elites/solos. It might extend to second winds for NPCs.
#6 Duskweaver Aug 15, 2009 4:40:39	I agree, and I'm glad to see it go. NPCs shouldn't be wasting their standard actions on something that does nothing but make the encounter last longer. That's not fun.
#7 myt3m0w53 Aug 15, 2009 9:17:59	I agree, and I'm glad to see it go. NPCs shouldn't be wasting their standard actions on something that does nothing but make the encounter last longer. That's not fun. :OMG! there on to 4.1 now!!!
#8 thekidofdnd Aug 15, 2009 9:23:11	npcs will have surges:headexplo :headexplo :headexplo
#9 Duskweaver Aug 15, 2009 13:03:55	there on to 4.1 now!!! I'm not sure what point you're making in relation to my quoted post. npcs will have surges Of course they will. It's second wind we're talking about, not surges. A vampire healing itself by jumping on one of the PCs and draining her blood is cool. An NPC just standing there doing nothing for a turn and getting back 1/4 of its ridiculous pile of HPs is not. It just makes the encounter last a few rounds longer with absolutely no increase in drama/challenge/fun/awesomeness. Giving NPCs access to second wind was always a terrible idea.
#10 darth_azalin Aug 16, 2009 6:59:44	I have always felt that every creature had a second wind. Very few had action points. Since dming the 4.0 ruleset I have never used a second wind on a mob that the pcs were fighting. I do tend to use their APs when I can.