They still plan on making it, they just want to get the Essentials line down first.
1. Economics: during a time of recession, companies that sell luxury goods (ex. games) focus their efforts on guaranteed winners that many people will want to buy. PHB3 should have good sales because there's probably 3 to 4 times as many players as there are DM's. Conversely DMG3 is at risk for low sales. WoTC probably delayed the DMG3 to try and ride out the economic storm and then publish it when times are better.
2. D&D Essentials: This would be a strategic decision about the overall direction of D&D. WoTC could be waiting to see sales numbers and feedback from the new essentials line. If sales are high and they recieve positive feedback about any new rules, they would probably want to include a lot of those new features into DMG3. I would suspect that PHB4 is released concurrently with DMG3 and in effect creates a version 4.5 (but WoTC will NEVER call it that)
Those are my theories, anyone else have any ideas?
If it is following the same path as the previous two DMG's, the DMG 3 should in some ways be the old Epic Power book, as it would be giving support to the third tier of play.
This may also somewhat depend on just how much of their customer base has an interest in tier 3.
Of course if you keep with that logic, and there is a dmg4, then perhaps it would introduce a 4th tier of play where the players get to do godly things, but I don't think that is going to happen.
I don't know if this was the plan from the beginning, or if Wizards was stupid enough to believe that a level cap would mean the end of the characters, a starting over with level 1 new characters as the old one retire.
This makes me wonder if the delay of the DMG3 will bring about a seperate book for Mythic play, or a set of books...
Perhaps Advanced Dungeon & Dragons - Mythic play PHB and DMG.
Besides, who are the mooks when you've surpassed the levels of Gods? You end up with the Dragonball Effect.
The game is good as it is: you're not retiring when you make it to the end – you've achieved your epic destiny, and become a mover and shaker on a cosmic level. You're no longer a PC, you're a part of the mythos of the world.
That's why you don't play after that. There IS'NT anything more, it's not a hero's quest anymore, it's an exercise in mechanics of fighting bigger and badder bads. You end up fighting Androids stronger than the Emperor of the Universe, and then discover that Genie that's even stronger, and then discover even stronger Androids, and wait… wait a minute… I can see where this is going…
I think the structure having the set up for the overall set of powers and such without having to have a scale for levels beyond it was for space and ease, and the limit set at level 30 was to simplify the rules instead of having a scale to work with like the previous system. That being said, if Wizards didn't see the want of player to keep playing their characters beyond this safe structure, I doubt they ever played the game before they wrote it. I simply can't believe they didn't have a way to play a character beyond the wall, that the future product to do so wasn't planned from the very beginning.
But, if that is true, then I hope it is corrected in 5th edition.
Technically, you could create a system where as your epic destiny, you play something more like a Birthright campaign. You would be directing your mortals, and possibly battling with other gods and the Elemental Elders of old themselves.
If Wizards had a good idea for the mechanics and the desire/prospective customer base to make it worth while, they could very easily crank out "Teir 4"
If thats just the answer, you want higher numbers, the game supports it. Just keep adding half level, and attribute bonuses at ever 4th level.
Even if Wizards did extend the level cap, it wouldn't solve the problem of players wanting to continue after the cap. If they raised the cap to level 40, you'd just run into the same problem at level 40 that you ran into at level 30. After you defeat the final boss (who naturally can't be anything other than a mighty fusion of every god, primordial, and far realm deity in existence), does Wizards really expect players to just stop playing that campaign? Well, yeah, they do.
It isn't a matter of if but of when.
I do think the original intent was to keep with the 30 levels, but we, as players and consumers of the product, never wanted a level cap.
You don't speak for everyone. Try to remember that.
Some will be satisfied with the current schematics, but true epic play (instead of Epic Teir that is epic in name only) is something that will come about eventually.
It isn't a matter of if but of when.
No, it's a matter of never happening.
I do think the original intent was to keep with the 30 levels, but we, as players and consumers of the product, never wanted a level cap. Some will be satisfied with the current schematics, but true epic play (instead of Epic Teir that is epic in name only) is something that will come about eventually.
It isn't a matter of if but of when.
Who is we?
And Epic Tier is Epic Tier. I don't understand what you mean, when you claim there's something beyond killing the strongest beings in the universe. What are you going to make them fight at higher levels?
There's no non-Boss enemies to fight at that point. Otherwise you'd have mooks stronger than Orcus, and what does that say about the Demon Prince of the Undead? Some android cultist is stronger than him? It reeks of Dragonball Z / G/T.
I do think the original intent was to keep with the 30 levels, but we, as players and consumers of the product, never wanted a level cap. Some will be satisfied with the current schematics, but true epic play (instead of Epic Teir that is epic in name only) is something that will come about eventually.
It isn't a matter of if but of when.
Perhaps if 4e was default capped at level 20 and then offered Epic Tiered play later on, will your perception change? Also if we did continuously level up, the numerical values of damage, HP etc will skyrocket. At that point, it is better to have a different scale system such as Exalted or a supers rpg. Bear in mind that D&D gods/primordials are around 30-35, so if D&D PCs reach that level, there is no treats left to fight.
the goal is to allow a point where you can just say "i win". when you play an epic character now you barely get to use them as an epic character. your coolest epic destiny feature the one you played 30 frackin levels for is only available for your one last hurrah until the campaigns over. takes all the fun out of it. you can finally do what you want and now theres nothing left to do.
what the wrath of the immortals allowed you to do and i suspect immortal tier of play will do is rid yourself of the pc inferiority complex that pollutes fourth edition. right now you can write up a party that can kill orcus but what if you wanna be orcus?you can set out at first level with the idea to supplant asmodeus and rule hell. an immortal tier gives you the tools to do that.
i see almost an inverted scale wher you become less and less involved as you transcend into an immortal way of thinking. early tier would be alot like adventuring where you actively take on and encounter the planar movers and shakers but as your power grows so does your perspective until youve reached a point where you can no longer take an active role. each "road to immortality" would allow you to select different aspect or domains to define what kind of god you wanted to be. to evolve from a 31st lvl demigod to a lesser deity say 36th and finally true ascendancy at 40.
the trick is to develop the divine challenge mechanic which would define the later aspects of the game. think the 12 herculean tasks. how and where does the acquisition of domains stem from? how do you induce people to follow you? even lower tier immortals have performed feats that some would look at with a state of awe bordering on worship what do you do to convert them fully. experience would be about acquiring worshipper so while lower tier adventures would resemble a pseudo highlander style of kill the biggest baddie and gain renown upper tier stuff would be about performing truly godlike feats or even throwing stuff back into the lower tiers. write up a first level cleric of yourself and advance him to 20th level. he is now the high priest of your church.
its already part of the game it just hasnt been converted to fourth edition yet. from wrath of the immortals to sorcerer kings the idea of pcs ascendancy has always been a part of the game. theres even a whole bunch of usable nps if you think of all the lesser deitys that got axed in the 4gotten realms.
your redefining adventuring and your redefining winning but in the end its still the same game.
I first opened the 3.0 book, and after running through it while my friend was saying he was impressed, I scratched my head.
Why? I was asking this for several things. Why have both mechanics for the Wizard and the Sourcerer when the Sourcerer mech could have been used with memorized spells. Why have two of basically the same class.
Why? Why have the Half Orc included? It was taken out from the 1st edition for the same reason it was not in the PHB1 in 4th.
Why? Why was the Ranger and Bard so limited (part of this was corrected in 3.5)?
Why? Why did they have the Domains in when it was basically an extra spell that sometimes was one from the Wizard's list for the Cleric?
Why was the Alignment Restriction for the Monk the same as the Paladin? (It should have been Good(LG/CG/NG) or a Neutral (NG/N/NE) restriction)
Well, we ended up playing 3.5 for a long while, and these concerns still bugged me every once and a while.
Now I look at the new 4th edition book. Where was the Gnome? (PHB2) Still have to Mem Daily's for the Wizard. (simpler to have them be choosen at casting, like the Cleric Channel Divinity) Dragonborn? really? (They have grown on me since then, but it is still a puzzler) The Warlock is the weakest class in the book when it was a breath of fresh air in the previous system. I did like the Eledrin and elf split, and the elemination of the "Small Weapons." I was slightly disappointed with the exclusion of the stat Comliness, but that was expected. (It was something from 2nd edition and a stat that is used in other systems to great effect)
So as I look at this, I see the three tiers and the 30 levels and say "Oh, they spread out the 20 levels to 30 and call the last teir Epic." I never expected that this was a permenant level cap and that a version of the "Epic rules" would be done at some point.
Right now, there is no reason to think otherwise. The delay of the DMG3 could mean that something else may be worked on instead and this beyond level 30 book could be a part of that.
Why? Why have the Half Orc included? It was taken out from the 1st edition for the same reason it was not in the PHB1 in 4th.
2nd edition, not 1st. And no they weren't taken out of the 4e PHB1 for the same reason. No matter how loudly you scream otherwise.
So as I look at this, I see the three tiers and the 30 levels and say "Oh, they spread out the 20 levels to 30 and call the last teir Epic." I never expected that this was a permenant level cap and that a version of the "Epic rules" would be done at some point.
Right now, there is no reason to think otherwise. The delay of the DMG3 could mean that something else may be worked on instead and this beyond level 30 book could be a part of that.
Think of it this way: 3.0e Deities and Demigods included stats for various deities.
Most of them were over level 40. The level cap back then was 20, with Epic Tier covering to 30.
Now most deities are somewhere above level 30, most 35±1.
Why would there be a new Post-Epic tier that's the equivalent of post-post Epic tier from 3e?
Another way of saying this: Gods are ten levels lower in 4e than they were in 3.5e. Even then, it was retconned that those were too weak, being only Avatars of the real deities, meaning the the deities were actually a lot more powerful.
So the Epic Handbook from 3e is actually much more equivalent to the Epic Tier in 4e, because it brings you to the approach of God-level, but not quite there. But some strong solos that were around level 20 were bumped up half a tier for more of a challenge from normal enemies in Epic.
However, (and I may have mentioned this prior) I would not mind seeing an alternate option for a "4th tier"
I would imagine that the concept would likelly fill the entirety of the dmg4, (cause what's left to say at that point worth purchasing/printing?) You would not be a level 31 fighter/pitfighter/demigod. You would be a level 1 Demigod.
I also don't think 4th tier would be heavily supported beyond that book, it would merely be an alternate means of continuation.
Besides, there are other games that let you play demigods you know
Roleplaying a god or demigod is all about matter of taste, not plot. I love to use Comic Books as an example of how it can be done. Just because you became a god/demigod your story doesn't have to be over. Take Dr. Strange for example; his story begins with him becoming the Sorceror Supreme.
How about Thor or Hercules, both of them are Gods, and there are still bigger fish in the pond. Take, Galactus or the Beyonder for example. I don't think even Thor could take Galactus, he'd have to team up with a group of similarly powered heroes. Sounds like d&d to me.
Just because YOU didn't see the 30 levels as very epic doesn't mean that they aren't. Epic-tier heroes traverse the planes, dealing with gods, their agents, demons, etc. In the Scales of War Adventure Path, epic heroes are directly involved in the machinations of gods, and provide the critical extra power in the conflict between two gods that makes all the difference between winning and losing for one of them.
Plus, have you not read Epic Destinies? At level 30, heroes retire. Sometimes, right after completing their destiny quest, they completely shed their mortal shells and become demigods, exarchs, primal spirits, etc. How do you propose those adventurers keep on going with their companions?
In this "expanded play" fantasy of yours, they would have to completely scrap all the material written for charactes of levels 21-30 that has been published over the past 3 years.
All of it.
But you think it's inevitable, huh?
You think you know it so well, and you think you can defend that point against logical opposition?
What you don't see is that YES, WotC DOES expect you to retire characters at level 30, THEY BUILT THAT INTO THE RULES OF THE GAME. This served many purposes, all of them good.
1) An end to the story of that character. We all have favorite characters we've played back in the day. The ones we tell stories to our other gamer friends about. What happened to that human warrior you played back in 2nd edition? Or that elf mage from 3.5? How often is the answer something like "The DM wanted to start over a new campaign" or perhaps your characters did everything they set out to do? Was the story that your DM wrote over? If so, what happened to your character AFTER the adventure?
2) No more glut of over-powered epic characters running around. This is something Eberron, when it came out in 3.5, tried to correct, seeing something like this as a failing of Forgotten Realms. I, personally, detest too many epic characters running around, especially when the DM is too fond of his epic-level NPCs. Played a game in college where the DM introduced his favorite Epic-level DMPC to the players before they hit level 10. The players sat on the sidelines of a lot of the real action, and got railroaded into doing whatever the DMPC wanted, because he was so much more powerful than them.
3) The Dragonball effect. I've heard stopries from people who played 3.x well into epic play. They started working their ways throught the layers of Baator and the Abyss, slaying archfiends until even those mighty battles became little more than whittling away at the hp of YET ANOTHER demon lord. Or the Abominations in the Epic-level Handbook, which, while fluff behind them had some potential, they never really explained wqhere these things were before epic level play. It stops being fun.
Now you have a goal mechanically (level 30) and story-wise (destiny quest). Once you have completed both, you are given a reward that allows you to retire your character in style.
Guy 1: "Dude, one of my favorite characters was this Gnoll Barbarian who had lost his tribe as a cub and been raised as a gladiator slave before escaping and becoming an adventurer."
Guy 2: "What happened to him?"
Guy 1: "Well a lot of stuff, but in the end, we defeated Tiamat, and stopped her from conquering the Material Plane. My barbarian then became one of the eternal Primal Spirits that protect the world."
Guy 2: "Cool."
Isn't that better than "We kept on levelling and just started killing bigger monsters" or "Well, we saved the kingdom, which was our main quest, and then....we just...stopped playing those characters" or "Well, we saved the world, and then...I don't know, I guess my wizard's running a magic shop, or maybe opened a school for wizards or soethng...I dunno...never gave it much thought."
I think so.
thaX, you do not speak for everyone, and you seem impossible to please.
Just because YOU didn't see the 30 levels as very epic doesn't mean that they aren't. Epic-tier heroes traverse the planes, dealing with gods, their agents, demons, etc. In the Scales of War Adventure Path, epic heroes are directly involved in the machinations of gods, and provide the critical extra power in the conflict between two gods that makes all the difference between winning and losing for one of them.
Plus, have you not read Epic Destinies? At level 30, heroes retire. Sometimes, right after completing their destiny quest, they completely shed their mortal shells and become demigods, exarchs, primal spirits, etc. How do you propose those adventurers keep on going with their companions?
In this "expanded play" fantasy of yours, they would have to completely scrap all the material written for charactes of levels 21-30 that has been published over the past 3 years.
All of it.
But you think it's inevitable, huh?
You think you know it so well, and you think you can defend that point against logical opposition?
What you don't see is that YES, WotC DOES expect you to retire characters at level 30, THEY BUILT THAT INTO THE RULES OF THE GAME. This served many purposes, all of them good.
1) An end to the story of that character. We all have favorite characters we've played back in the day. The ones we tell stories to our other gamer friends about. What happened to that human warrior you played back in 2nd edition? Or that elf mage from 3.5? How often is the answer something like "The DM wanted to start over a new campaign" or perhaps your characters did everything they set out to do? Was the story that your DM wrote over? If so, what happened to your character AFTER the adventure?
2) No more glut of over-powered epic characters running around. This is something Eberron, when it came out in 3.5, tried to correct, seeing something like this as a failing of Forgotten Realms. I, personally, detest too many epic characters running around, especially when the DM is too fond of his epic-level NPCs. Played a game in college where the DM introduced his favorite Epic-level DMPC to the players before they hit level 10. The players sat on the sidelines of a lot of the real action, and got railroaded into doing whatever the DMPC wanted, because he was so much more powerful than them.
3) The Dragonball effect. I've heard stopries from people who played 3.x well into epic play. They started working their ways throught the layers of Baator and the Abyss, slaying archfiends until even those mighty battles became little more than whittling away at the hp of YET ANOTHER demon lord. Or the Abominations in the Epic-level Handbook, which, while fluff behind them had some potential, they never really explained wqhere these things were before epic level play. It stops being fun.
Now you have a goal mechanically (level 30) and story-wise (destiny quest). Once you have completed both, you are given a reward that allows you to retire your character in style.
Guy 1: "Dude, one of my favorite characters was this Gnoll Barbarian who had lost his tribe as a cub and been raised as a gladiator slave before escaping and becoming an adventurer."
Guy 2: "What happened to him?"
Guy 1: "Well a lot of stuff, but in the end, we defeated Tiamat, and stopped her from conquering the Material Plane. My barbarian then became one of the eternal Primal Spirits that protect the world."
Guy 2: "Cool."
Isn't that better than "We kept on levelling and just started killing bigger monsters" or "Well, we saved the kingdom, which was our main quest, and then....we just...stopped playing those characters" or "Well, we saved the world, and then...I don't know, I guess my wizard's running a magic shop, or maybe opened a school for wizards or soethng...I dunno...never gave it much thought."
I think so.
i think you confused my argument with his.
1)the rules of the game allow for characters to retire after each tier thats what they built in. if there is a demand for play beyond epic there will be play beyond epic. allowing a structured full immortal tier would provide an aditional chapter. again if your an immortal primal spirit which is the goal you strove for then what? part of what i see as the lack of apeal in epic play is that you dont get to use the stuff you played 30 levels for. you do all that stuff and then you retire. lame.
2) theres a reason immortal pcs arent trotting around bullying adventuring groups its because the scale of what they're doing is immortal in scope.these are god-like beings unconcerned with the fate of 1 village or villager. heroic tier is about saving the village paragon about saving the continent and epic is about saving the world. what of you wanted to go transplanar? yes to the heroic tier adventurers youve gone fade to black but to someone who is paragon you may glimpse those whove ascended and new players on the epic stage will see the aftereffects and may try and thwart or aid new immortals.
3) by providing an immortal tier you show the gears behind the clock. why are all the nastiest baddies cr 34 because thats where the ascent begins and they get thier first domain. demon cults of orcus ancestr worshippers these are the fuel that sets the stage for the immortal ascent and the true prizes theyre after. its about improving your character not simply acquiring bigger badder swords. and like i said before by using a "immortal challenge" you can throw things back into the lower tiers so that you can advance your old character by writing up a new one.
i think the poor mechanics of the 3rd edition may have skewed many but ive had plenty of fun playing in the odnd immortal tier and carried that end goal with me through the editions.
"what happened to the half elf ranger that justin played? his name was fharik, thats who your cleric worships." now thats an ending
(Deva, Revenants, Warforged, Shardminds post PHB3)
I also see ED that has the character sticking around at level 30. If the character was meant to retire, I am sure the ED would all be "Aaannnnnd, your a god. congrats, make a new character" tag.
I stand by my previous statement, not if, but when.
If Wizards didn't think of play beyond level thirty at some point in design, they didn't think. This isn't an online game, where a level cap is necessary because of limits of what can be in the electronic world and how much the overall development can be stretched.
I would say they thought hard and long when they designed this edition. Most editions have had a lvl cap starting with basic threw to now.The lvl cap has changed form time to time but it has been there, it was 36 originally and was dropped to 20 the raised to 30. And I think the reason for that was to get people to try new things, classes, races etc. Thats how you get people to buy your new products. The real reason for a level cap is so they don't have to worry about power creeping and game balence and is that not the most important thing for any game no matter the platform? It seems to me that you thaX are the only one who is thinking this will happen even when faced with published proof.
Yes, yes, the original design is for the level cap, I got that. I think it was necessary considering the overall way the classes are set up, with powers listed for all the levels and no power creep scaling. This isn't a debate on what is already there, but what will be.
If Wizards didn't think of play beyond level thirty at some point in design, they didn't think. This isn't an online game, where a level cap is necessary because of limits of what can be in the electronic world and how much the overall development can be stretched.
Or (and here's what actually happened) WotC did think of play beyond level 30, and decided it was unnecessary.
There will be no post-30 levels or tiers. Get used to it.
The main reason I think that beyond level 30 play is going to happen at some point is that the Epic play is nothing compared to what it was in previous editions. Truly, the levels in this new edition is the previous edition 20 levels stretched into 30. I see a "true" epic play, one that is scaled instead of simply "another tier." No level cap.
On another subject, did the DMG2 not do so well? My store here had it on clearance.
On another subject, did the DMG2 not do so well? My store here had it on clearance.
Another possible reason why DMG3 was moved back.
Too many players are still in Heroic Tier. Some were demanding Paragon Tier, so DMG2 came out the second year. However, most are still in Heroic Tier. Do we need to jump all the way to covering Epic Tier so soon?
Even if not very many of us will buy it?
Also, the book suffers from being marketed only to DMs, not to Players, so it's going to be less bought.
I can understand that Epic Tier doesn't feel "epic" and I do sometimes feel paragon as mid level ( level 5 above in older editions), probably due to the monsters we fight. Don't forget that 4e expanded the sweet spot from level 1-30 hence all levels supposedly play like the sweet spot of 3e (levels 4-14).
Heck, I'm sure somewhere in the PHB 1 they told me I would have a neat character image design feature on the web, as well as a dungeon mapper with future on-line DMing capabilities.
Regardless, I do agree with most of the positions that we are not going to see level 31+. I think what will be more likely, is that DMG 3 will be the last DMG covering Epic play, and leaving it at that.
If the DMG 3 is coming out in 2011ish, its already going to be released with the PHB4, so there is really no reason at that point to put out 1 PHB 1 DMG and 1MM per year.
Still, that is not to say down the road that they do not put out an "expansion" which essentially is the 4th tier, but mechanically, such a system likely would look nothing like 4E. As it would also likely be more freeform, and crunch lite, I don't think Wotcy would bother putting it out in the first place, but should demand for such a thing exist, you never know.
Can anyone tell me what purpose the DnD Essentials line serves. Excuse me, but didn't 4e just come out in 2008 with a starter set and don't they have the basics for Down Load on the WOtC web site for all those wanting to try out the game to see if they like it? to me it seems redundant and unnecessary. However, I think the DM's kit will be nice and is long overdue, though I will have some reservations about a DM's screen - which again to me, was the best product they have ever released thus far for any version of DnD.
i think you confused my argument with his.
1)the rules of the game allow for characters to retire after each tier thats what they built in. if there is a demand for play beyond epic there will be play beyond epic. allowing a structured full immortal tier would provide an aditional chapter. again if your an immortal primal spirit which is the goal you strove for then what? part of what i see as the lack of apeal in epic play is that you dont get to use the stuff you played 30 levels for. you do all that stuff and then you retire. lame.
you completely missed the point of both what I said and the very design feature of the game. You don't just "do that stuff then retire". You complete an epic quest that fulfills the destiny that was the very purpose of your birth.
And the "immortal tier" as you call it can't happen. Some EDs shed their physical form as part of their imortality. Some (like some of the Martial ones) are "immortal" only in the legacy they leave behind. There's some Planar EDs that cause the character to be sucked into another plane once he completes his ED.
You do get to use the stuf you plyed 30 levels for. The idea is not that you hit level 30 with the xp from the last battle. All the players should be level 30 for the last several encounters. You should get a few sessions of play out of the level 30 abilities of your ED. And if you played epic tier and didn't get this, that's more of a flaw i your DM, not the system.
2) theres a reason immortal pcs arent trotting around bullying adventuring groups its because the scale of what they're doing is immortal in scope.these are god-like beings unconcerned with the fate of 1 village or villager. heroic tier is about saving the village paragon about saving the continent and epic is about saving the world. what of you wanted to go transplanar? yes to the heroic tier adventurers youve gone fade to black but to someone who is paragon you may glimpse those whove ascended and new players on the epic stage will see the aftereffects and may try and thwart or aid new immortals.
That's a narrowminded view of what tiers encompass. Planar adventures can start at any tier. Feywild/Shadowfell adventures can start mid-heroic to Paragon. And there are challenges in the Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea appropriate for late Paragon. Epic tier is absolutely suited for transplanar, because there's where most of the bigger threats to the universe are.
It's more like:
Level 1-3: Save the village/city
Rest of heroic Tier: Save the kingdom/country
Paragon: Save the World from threats both inside and outside it
Epic: Save the multiverse.
But even this is all up to the story of the DM. Players could be stopping major planar threats from Heroic tier, as some wizard in the Shadowfell attempts to spread Shadowfell influence. In Paragon tier, they might be stopping a Formorian Lord from launching a major Feywild invasion. The list goes on.
3) by providing an immortal tier you show the gears behind the clock. why are all the nastiest baddies cr 34 because thats where the ascent begins and they get thier first domain. demon cults of orcus ancestr worshippers these are the fuel that sets the stage for the immortal ascent and the true prizes theyre after. its about improving your character not simply acquiring bigger badder swords. and like i said before by using a "immortal challenge" you can throw things back into the lower tiers so that you can advance your old character by writing up a new one.
Your entire argument is what epic tier is for. The "Nastiest Baddies" that are level 34 are meant as campaign-ending encounters. Orcus, Demogorgon, Vecna, Tiamat. These are "final bosses", the defeat of which puts an end to said threat to the universe.
i think the poor mechanics of the 3rd edition may have skewed many but ive had plenty of fun playing in the odnd immortal tier and carried that end goal with me through the editions.
I think you -and ThaX- both just have a desire to set yourself above "core rules". A lot of people in 3.x who wanted to play Epic did so because DnD traditionally "caps" at level 20. They saw that as a limitation to be broken, beaten, surpassed. But WotC took that inot account and realized that having mighty, epic adventures with cosmos-spanning threats could be a lot of fun. So they incorporated that into the Core Rules, tempering it with giving the players as satisfying "out".
Stuff shouldn't drag on forever. It becomes like movie series whose sequels should have stopped after the 3rd one. Any more makes you roll your eyes and say "I thought in the 3rd one they solved everything!"
"what happened to the half elf ranger that justin played? his name was fharik, thats who your cleric worships." now thats an ending
Possible right now under current rules if said Ranger took the Demigod ED. Or if you had a Primal character take one of the EDs in Primal Power that turns hiim into a Primal Spirit, he can be the guiding Primal Spirit of your next Primal character, or even the soul of the spirit companion of a shaman.
The rules don't limit this kind of thing, your imagination does.
I have seen some of the Epic stuff, though I have not looked at it fully. (I am still getting the paragon stuff a run through) It was a head scratcher when I first cracked open the book, why the ED were more for transition rather than powers better suited for game play. I think most Wizards will ascend before they reach level 30, to be honest.
Ascend? what game are you playing here? This isn't Mage: The Ascension .
I also see ED that has the character sticking around at level 30. If the character was meant to retire, I am sure the ED would all be "Aaannnnnd, your a god. congrats, make a new character" tag.
I stand by my previous statement, not if, but when.
You stay at level 30 because at that level of power you have amassed all the power that a fighter/warlord/wizard/etc. can amass. As has been said, stand by your statement all you want. Stand by it alone, unsupported by any evidence, and wait for years for what will never come. The rest of us will be satifactorily enjoying the game.
Yes, yes, the original design is for the level cap, I got that. I think it was necessary considering the overall way the classes are set up, with powers listed for all the levels and no power creep scaling. This isn't a debate on what is already there, but what will be.
No it isn't. This is you CLAIMING about what will be, not supported by any evidence whatsoever. You completely ignore the fact that to add another tier, they would have to throw out most-if not all-Epic Destiny "Immortality" content, not to mention re-scale encoutners like Tiamat, Vecna, and more.
If Wizards didn't think of play beyond level thirty at some point in design, they didn't think. This isn't an online game, where a level cap is necessary because of limits of what can be in the electronic world and how much the overall development can be stretched.
YOU are the one who needs reminding that this isn't an online game. You think the level cap needs to be raised "next expansion"? WotC isn't going the raise the level cap, the design and development of 4e has DEITIES statted out as 34-35 solos. In this half-baked fantasy of yours would level 40 characters just up and take a trip to go slay Tiamat "for giggles"? Your talking about a major change to a pantheon that would have a number of aftershick effects. Such an event is best suited for an end to campaign, a climactic achievement of a goal, with the repursussions as a part of the Epilogue.
Why?
Because I don't appreciate WotC telling me that Bane is not an appropriate final encounter because "he's just too powerful for PCs to fight."
**** you. I'm the DM. If I want my PC to destroy the very concept of conquest and war, I will DO SO.
So either publish stats for all evil gods as theoretically defeatable by 30th level PCs, or keep your Bane at "about level 40" and raise the cap so my friends can fight him.
You can't have it both ways. You can't have a 30th level cap and claim that "there's nothing else to fight" when there are still things you can't possibly defeat at that level.
(At the very least, don't go publishing things like "the weakest of evil gods can be defeated", or hint at god's being at levels to powerful to fight. So my players that are in-the-know don't feel cheated and condescended-to by a "weaker than suggested" level 35 homebrewed version of Bane)
i think you confused my argument with his.
1)the rules of the game allow for characters to retire after each tier thats what they built in. if there is a demand for play beyond epic there will be play beyond epic. allowing a structured full immortal tier would provide an aditional chapter. again if your an immortal primal spirit which is the goal you strove for then what? part of what i see as the lack of apeal in epic play is that you dont get to use the stuff you played 30 levels for. you do all that stuff and then you retire. lame.
you completely missed the point of both what I said and the very design feature of the game. You don't just "do that stuff then retire". You complete an epic quest that fulfills the destiny that was the very purpose of your birth.
And the "immortal tier" as you call it can't happen. Some EDs shed their physical form as part of their imortality. Some (like some of the Martial ones) are "immortal" only in the legacy they leave behind. There's some Planar EDs that cause the character to be sucked into another plane once he completes his ED.
You do get to use the stuf you plyed 30 levels for. The idea is not that you hit level 30 with the xp from the last battle. All the players should be level 30 for the last several encounters. You should get a few sessions of play out of the level 30 abilities of your ED. And if you played epic tier and didn't get this, that's more of a flaw i your DM, not the system.2) theres a reason immortal pcs arent trotting around bullying adventuring groups its because the scale of what they're doing is immortal in scope.these are god-like beings unconcerned with the fate of 1 village or villager. heroic tier is about saving the village paragon about saving the continent and epic is about saving the world. what of you wanted to go transplanar? yes to the heroic tier adventurers youve gone fade to black but to someone who is paragon you may glimpse those whove ascended and new players on the epic stage will see the aftereffects and may try and thwart or aid new immortals.
That's a narrowminded view of what tiers encompass. Planar adventures can start at any tier. Feywild/Shadowfell adventures can start mid-heroic to Paragon. And there are challenges in the Elemental Chaos and Astral Sea appropriate for late Paragon. Epic tier is absolutely suited for transplanar, because there's where most of the bigger threats to the universe are.
It's more like:
Level 1-3: Save the village/city
Rest of heroic Tier: Save the kingdom/country
Paragon: Save the World from threats both inside and outside it
Epic: Save the multiverse.
But even this is all up to the story of the DM. Players could be stopping major planar threats from Heroic tier, as some wizard in the Shadowfell attempts to spread Shadowfell influence. In Paragon tier, they might be stopping a Formorian Lord from launching a major Feywild invasion. The list goes on.3) by providing an immortal tier you show the gears behind the clock. why are all the nastiest baddies cr 34 because thats where the ascent begins and they get thier first domain. demon cults of orcus ancestr worshippers these are the fuel that sets the stage for the immortal ascent and the true prizes theyre after. its about improving your character not simply acquiring bigger badder swords. and like i said before by using a "immortal challenge" you can throw things back into the lower tiers so that you can advance your old character by writing up a new one.
Your entire argument is what epic tier is for. The "Nastiest Baddies" that are level 34 are meant as campaign-ending encounters. Orcus, Demogorgon, Vecna, Tiamat. These are "final bosses", the defeat of which puts an end to said threat to the universe.
i think the poor mechanics of the 3rd edition may have skewed many but ive had plenty of fun playing in the odnd immortal tier and carried that end goal with me through the editions.
I think you -and ThaX- both just have a desire to set yourself above "core rules". A lot of people in 3.x who wanted to play Epic did so because DnD traditionally "caps" at level 20. They saw that as a limitation to be broken, beaten, surpassed. But WotC took that inot account and realized that having mighty, epic adventures with cosmos-spanning threats could be a lot of fun. So they incorporated that into the Core Rules, tempering it with giving the players as satisfying "out".
Stuff shouldn't drag on forever. It becomes like movie series whose sequels should have stopped after the 3rd one. Any more makes you roll your eyes and say "I thought in the 3rd one they solved everything!"
"what happened to the half elf ranger that justin played? his name was fharik, thats who your cleric worships." now thats an ending
Possible right now under current rules if said Ranger took the Demigod ED. Or if you had a Primal character take one of the EDs in Primal Power that turns hiim into a Primal Spirit, he can be the guiding Primal Spirit of your next Primal character, or even the soul of the spirit companion of a shaman.
The rules don't limit this kind of thing, your imagination does.
1 its a tier cap not a game ender. it all depends on the scope and arc of your campaigns. youve saved the village from the marauding horde go in peace. youve defeated the lich queen and saved the princess and live happily ever after or youve completed your destiny quest which is the purpose of your birth you now transcend the mortal realm. theres still room to breathe there.
you get around the different immortal rewards the same way you get around the fact that a goliath barbarian is paired up with a halfling rogue and an elven archer. if youve spent 30 lecvels adventuring together youve got ample motivation established on why each would align with the other players to aid in thier quests. weak sauce with this one.
i think what an immortal tier offers is what the epic destiny teases you with. your epic destiny is to be a prince of hell or a primal spirit but as an immortal you actually get to BE a prince of hell or a primal spirit. getting to play one adventure or even less is completely different than the experience of identifying your character that way. i had a druid spend several encounters as a mouse i dont think of him as a rodent.
2 that might work better in a more static environment then i play in. scaling was something i did when i first started playing and something i tried to keep and got horribly botched in 3.5. the more narrowly i kept it focused the easier it was to keep the switch between editions and have things make sense when i ran the same world.
3 if thats what epic is for its epic fail. you dont defeat vecna you defeat his aspect. yur still not a player on that stage. its the inferiority complex that kills me. the reason bel hasnt taken his legions and stomped all over the prime material is because the great guardian spirit bill the player character stands ever vigilant. and yeah sure that makes sense untill you look at the stats and see that bel is a cr 34 and bill had to retire and without his 4 buddies around bel whoops his monkey behind and dances all over the world you spent 15 years building. it becomes well just because which is fine but makes for poor game mechanics.
and to be honest i always imagined stories about when arthur woke up. post apocalyptic struggles of warring angels. played who would win in a fight odin or zeuss? sure you can do these things in epic tier but i can nerf orcus down and do it in heroic too. its just not the same. i dont mind suspension of disbelef what i do mind is the rules limiting my imagination.
sure things shouldnt go on forever but right now epic tier plays like the 3rd trilogy in an odyssey and without an immortal tier its doom the movie. the cool parts at the end and its not worth sitting through twice.
The -only- thing that frustrates me in the Bane issue; all deities should be around 34-36, so as they're actually threats for top tier characters.
1 its a tier cap not a game ender. it all depends on the scope and arc of your campaigns. youve saved the village from the marauding horde go in peace. youve defeated the lich queen and saved the princess and live happily ever after or youve completed your destiny quest which is the purpose of your birth you now transcend the mortal realm. theres still room to breathe there.
you get around the different immortal rewards the same way you get around the fact that a goliath barbarian is paired up with a halfling rogue and an elven archer. if youve spent 30 lecvels adventuring together youve got ample motivation established on why each would align with the other players to aid in thier quests. weak sauce with this one.
i think what an immortal tier offers is what the epic destiny teases you with. your epic destiny is to be a prince of hell or a primal spirit but as an immortal you actually get to BE a prince of hell or a primal spirit. getting to play one adventure or even less is completely different than the experience of identifying your character that way. i had a druid spend several encounters as a mouse i dont think of him as a rodent.
Your "solution" does not address the epic destinies that cause players to shed physical forms or become tied to teir new realms. Once a character becomes a prince of hell, he needs to more or less STAY in his demesne, or one of his infernal lieutenants will supplant him, and then he's no longer a prince of hell, is he? The ED that causes a player to become a Dark Lord of a Domain of Dread TRAPS that player in the Shadowfell. And nearly all of the ones where they become a Primal Spirit cause them to lose their corporeal form.
2 that might work better in a more static environment then i play in. scaling was something i did when i first started playing and something i tried to keep and got horribly botched in 3.5. the more narrowly i kept it focused the easier it was to keep the switch between editions and have things make sense when i ran the same world.
3 if thats what epic is for its epic fail. you dont defeat vecna you defeat his aspect. yur still not a player on that stage. its the inferiority complex that kills me. the reason bel hasnt taken his legions and stomped all over the prime material is because the great guardian spirit bill the player character stands ever vigilant. and yeah sure that makes sense untill you look at the stats and see that bel is a cr 34 and bill had to retire and without his 4 buddies around bel whoops his monkey behind and dances all over the world you spent 15 years building. it becomes well just because which is fine but makes for poor game mechanics.
As was addressed above, the stats for Vecna in Open Grave are the stats for Vecna himself. The Aspect of Vecna is a seperate (and lower level) creature.
The defeat of a god is a major undertaking, and should have been planned for accordingly, otherwise, they discorporate, but each book with deity stats mentions steps that could be taken to defeat said god PERMANENTLY (even Bahamut).
And as for Epic Play, you SHOULD get to play with your level 30 powers for awhile. take the last adventure of the Scales of War, for example. The entire adventure is for characters who have already hit 30. They play through a number of epic encounters with all their level 30 goodies, before confronting their final encounter.
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They fight Tiamat, and because of their actions and catching her after a major defeat, they kill her for good, not discorporatiing her. the impact this has on the world is enormous, because she's the god of greed, envy, and wealth.
They fight Tiamat, and because of their actions and catching her after a major defeat, they kill her for good, not discorporatiing her. the impact this has on the world is enormous, because she's the god of greed, envy, and wealth.
So what happens when your Final Big Bad is level 37 or higher, and PCs literally stand no chance in hell of beating him?
But what if a trilogy wasn't complete? What if the third movie ended with the heroes just short of being well equiped and prepared enough to take on the mastermind vllian behind all three movies?
So what happens when your Final Big Bad is level 37 or higher, and PCs literally stand no chance in hell of beating him?
But what if it was possible?
I love the hypothetical game!
But what if a trilogy wasn't complete? What if the third movie ended with the heroes just short of being well equiped and prepared enough to take on the mastermind vllian behind all three movies?
So what happens when your Final Big Bad is level 37 or higher, and PCs literally stand no chance in hell of beating him?
And what happens if he is a level 5001 and the PCs can just be eliminated by him just thinking? Do we need 497 more tiers just to support some DM who wants an enemy that high leveled?
Also if a trilogy isn't complete then it isn't really a trilogy is it?
Anyways to answer your question, the characters do the same thing they do when the big bad is a diety. They scour the ancient literature, the planes, and anything else they have access to in order to find the one way to weaken the enemy to a point where he is killable by them be it ritual, artifact, or obscure weakness. They might spend a long period of time at level 30 since they aren't required to ascend immediatly upon reaching level 30, but they will find the answer and it will be a good journey. If there is no such way, then the solution is to punch the DM for being an ass because he would make the big bad beyond the range doable by the PCs regardless of what the level cap was.
Couldn't ahve said it better myself.
But what if a trilogy wasn't complete? What if the third movie ended with the heroes just short of being well equiped and prepared enough to take on the mastermind vllian behind all three movies?
So what happens when your Final Big Bad is level 37 or higher, and PCs literally stand no chance in hell of beating him?
And what happens if he is a level 5001 and the PCs can just be eliminated by him just thinking? Do we need 497 more tiers just to support some DM who wants an enemy that high leveled?
Also if a trilogy isn't complete then it isn't really a trilogy is it?
Anyways to answer your question, the characters do the same thing they do when the big bad is a diety. They scour the ancient literature, the planes, and anything else they have access to in order to find the one way to weaken the enemy to a point where he is killable by them be it ritual, artifact, or obscure weakness. They might spend a long period of time at level 30 since they aren't required to ascend immediatly upon reaching level 30, but they will find the answer and it will be a good journey. If there is no such way, then the solution is to punch the DM for being an ass because he would make the big bad beyond the range doable by the PCs regardless of what the level cap was.
I find that last sentence pretty humorous because it wasn't me that decided Bane was beyond the range of defeatable enemies, it was WotC. They decided that there are things you just can't defeat, which takes away the entire purpose of "baking in" the epic rules into the Core game. Part of being "epic" was being theoretically able to defeat anything.
I didn't decide that Bane was level 40. I didn't say that I wanted infinite levels so my PCs coud fight level 5000 enemies. I said WotC should either NEVER state that anything is beyond defeatable at 30, or raise the cap just enough so EVERYTHING is defeatable.
Do not tell me that there is "nothing left to defeat" once you hit 30, when statements by developers are telling me otherwise. There's a pantheon of higher-level evil gods that I'm "not allowed" to see the stats for, because they've arbitrarily decided to make them above level 35.
And yes, I can absolutely homebrew a quest for Bane to be weakened down to level 35 so my PCs can fight him. But I can just as easily homebrew quests to give my PCs level-like bonuses (You bath in the rivers of incarnum at the center of the Bastion of Souls. Your max HP total increases by 50.)
I can homebrew my own "4th tier" as a series of quests to complete rather than XP to hoard.
But we're not talking homebrews, or anyone's ability to be a good DM (but thanks for implying I wasn't a good one, that was pretty special). We're talking about the game system, which as-is does not allow for the defeat of every possible foe. We're talking about a system that says "it's fine to use the goddess of envy, greed, and wealth as your final boss, but not the god of conquest" for absoltuely arbitrary reasons.
I think it's wrong, and my ability to homebrew a fix for it has no impact on it being wrong.
This is what I meant by "not being allowed" to see Bane's stats. The given reason for the omission was "He's too high level to ever be fought by anyone."
This is the post in question, where Ari Marmell (Mouseferatu) explains the omission.
As much as I respect Ari and love his work, this is one point where I disagree with him, and the WotC folk who made the decision.
They decided that since "by the rules" it's impossible to fight "certain gods", then they shouldn't be included. My stance is why on earth have the rules constructed to limit which gods can be fought?
It's an entirely arbitrary decision why some evil gods, say Vecna and Tiamat, can be beaten, and others, say Bane, cannot. So my point is two-fold. Either:
A) Include a system by which 30th level PCs advance in power so as to be able to defeat every potential enemy in the game. (And if an enemy is featured prominently in the fluff, like say Bane or Tharzidun, then he's in the game regardless if he has stats or not.)
B) NEVER state that anything is beyond the power of 30th level PCs to defeat. (Why even decide Bane is level 40ish in the first place, if such a decision makes him unusable as an enemy?)
I find that last sentence pretty humorous because it wasn't me that decided Bane was beyond the range of defeatable enemies, it was WotC. They decided that there are things you just can't defeat, which takes away the entire purpose of "baking in" the epic rules into the Core game. Part of being "epic" was being theoretically able to defeat anything.
I didn't decide that Bane was level 40. I didn't say that I wanted infinite levels so my PCs coud fight level 5000 enemies. I said WotC should either NEVER state that anything is beyond defeatable at 30, or raise the cap just enough so EVERYTHING is defeatable.
I was only responding to what you said in that post which was, "So what happens when your Final Big Bad is level 37 or higher, and PCs literally stand no chance in hell of beating him?" Should Bane have been statted out? I don't know. I really don't have strong feelings either way, but raising the level cap is just a bad idea. We'd just end up with current deity stats as "avatars" and the true deities being ten levels higher, probably with true Bane being an unkillable level 47.
Do not tell me that there is "nothing left to defeat" once you hit 30, when statements by developers are telling me otherwise. There's a pantheon of higher-level evil gods that I'm "not allowed" to see the stats for, because they've arbitrarily decided to make them above level 35.
There are level 30+ bosses, but there are not enough level 30+ mooks, so while there are things to fight there aren't enough things to fill out such a tier unless you are planning on just killing every deity, archdevil, demon prince, etc. Even then I doubt you'd have enough exp to get far beyone level 34.
And yes, I can absolutely homebrew a quest for Bane to be weakened down to level 35 so my PCs can fight him. But I can just as easily homebrew quests to give my PCs level-like bonuses (You bath in the rivers of incarnum at the center of the Bastion of Souls. Your max HP total increases by 50.)
I can homebrew my own "4th tier" as a series of quests to complete rather than XP to hoard.
But we're not talking homebrews, or anyone's ability to be a good DM (but thanks for implying I wasn't a good one, that was pretty special). We're talking about the game system, which as-is does not allow for the defeat of every possible foe. We're talking about a system that says "it's fine to use the goddess of envy, greed, and wealth as your final boss, but not the god of conquest" for absoltuely arbitrary reasons.
I think it's wrong, and my ability to homebrew a fix for it has no impact on it being wrong.
Considering we are talking about deities, yes we are talking about home brew. You have to homebrew in order top beat any deity currently statted out. Even if they statted out true Bane as a level 25 non-solo monster, you would still have to homebrew in order to kill him because of the discorporation. If you don't believe homebrew can fix a problem, then why aren't you complaining about discoporation in general which requires homebrew(of pretty much the exact same nature I am suggesting to fix the hypothetical level 37 baddie) in order to kill any god in the game?
Listen, it's clear we don't agree, but don't put words in my mouth.
In every stated out deity, yes, there's the discorporation ability which keeps the from being killed, but in every full page spread for a stated deity (Among the three stated gods, Tiamat, Vecna, and Bahamut) there is a sidebar specifically spelling out quests that can be used to negate it. It might not be in the stat-block itself, but it's not as if WotC gave us unkillabe monsters and just said "good luck!". They gave us unkillable monsters and then discussed how to turn them killable.
And one more time, do not put words in my mouth, especially when the words you are inserting are the exact opposite of what I've said. I did not say homebrew can't fix the problem. I've in fact offered a second way homebrewing CAN fix it, coming from either end (Homebrewing quest-based stat boosts after 30 as an alternative to level-based stat boosts. That way you aren't forced to wade through chumps and minions, but rather get bonuses for doing notable things, like say gain +2 to all attack rolls by slaying Maglubyet and higher max HP totals from bathing in the universal source of life energy).
What I DID say was that regardless of homebrew being able to fix the problem the fact remains that it needs fixing. Ergo, it is a problem to begin with that needs addressing.
(And if you noted, one of the ways I suggest to fix it is to forget entirely about Bane being too high-level, go back on the completely arbitrary decision to put evil gods like him out-of-reach, and stat him a level 35.)
Whatever anyone within Wizards are saying, it is inevitable, there will be beyond 30 level play.
I always thought it would be more of an ongoing level mechanic, not another "tier."
Whatever anyone within Wizards are saying, it is inevitable, there will be beyond 30 level play.
Whatever anyone on these boards are saying, it is NOT inevitable that there will be "beyond 30 level" play.
To say that such is inevitable is a blanket statement made with absolutely ZERO support or corraberating evidence.
I always thought it would be more of an ongoing level mechanic, not another "tier."
Whatever anyone within Wizards are saying, it is inevitable, there will be beyond 30 level play.
Whatever anyone on these boards are saying, it is NOT inevitable that there will be "beyond 30 level" play.
To say that such is inevitable is a blanket statement made with absolutely ZERO support or corraberating evidence.
Actually there already is beyond level 30 play. It's all just homebrew for now, but homebrew if its good usually becomes popular. Popular means eventually, inevitably, it will be "official". Will it happen? Who nows, but it would be fun
Your "solution" does not address the epic destinies that cause players to shed physical forms or become tied to teir new realms. Once a character becomes a prince of hell, he needs to more or less STAY in his demesne, or one of his infernal lieutenants will supplant him, and then he's no longer a prince of hell, is he? The ED that causes a player to become a Dark Lord of a Domain of Dread TRAPS that player in the Shadowfell. And nearly all of the ones where they become a Primal Spirit cause them to lose their corporeal form.
a player character trapped in a dark demiplane screams adventure hook to me. as well as the usurping underling trying to steal your rightfull place in hell. in point of fact the example of asmodeus' leaving in order to root out treachery was played to much effect ofer the past few years.
As was addressed above, the stats for Vecna in Open Grave are the stats for Vecna himself. The Aspect of Vecna is a seperate (and lower level) creature.
The defeat of a god is a major undertaking, and should have been planned for accordingly, otherwise, they discorporate, but each book with deity stats mentions steps that could be taken to defeat said god PERMANENTLY (even Bahamut).
And as for Epic Play, you SHOULD get to play with your level 30 powers for awhile. take the last adventure of the Scales of War, for example. The entire adventure is for characters who have already hit 30. They play through a number of epic encounters with all their level 30 goodies, before confronting their final encounter.Show
They fight Tiamat, and because of their actions and catching her after a major defeat, they kill her for good, not discorporatiing her. the impact this has on the world is enormous, because she's the god of greed, envy, and wealth.
a player character trapped in a dark demiplane screams adventure hook to me. as well as the usurping underling trying to steal your rightfull place in hell. in point of fact the example of asmodeus' leaving in order to root out treachery was played to much effect ofer the past few years.
And the EDs which tie the character to the Material Plane as a bodiless Primal Spirit? That guy can't do much active slaying of monsters. And the rest of the party may not be interested in a campaign focusing only on one guy's insurrection to be put down.
again im not pitching a series of never ending battles against bigger badder eviler stuff. but at the same time vecna tiamat bahamut lolth these were written as things to confront(lolth had 666 hps) and i and alot of players still enjoy those kinds of confrontations. machiavellan plots that last hundreds of years. the kind of things you enjoy in a game when youve left the fear of death behind.
Such might make for interesting stories, but not really good gaming. And not within the confines of the DnD ruleset.
i said the 3rd trilogy in an epic which is a series of four trilogies. its a fantasy literature tradition that goes back to the odyssey and kind of a staple of the genre. and an ability to recreate that is currently missing from the game. which is fine i guess if your just emulating a movie based on a theme park ride.
epic tier and fourth as currently constituted isnt pirates 4 its the mellorian without the seeress of kell or the wheel of time without brandon sanderson.
You're comparing Apples to Oranges here. The Belgariad and Mallorean were INTENDED as a five book series. Things that were designed as trilogies that "tack on" a fourth installment (especially one much much later i.e. Indiana jones) are generally fail. But that isn't limited to trilogies alone. Any series that had an intended stopping point and is then picked up later usually sucks. Look at what Frank Herbert's son is doing to DUNE.
Epic tier in 4e is fine as is, this "immortal tier" or whatever you want to call it IS Indiana Jones 4 or Pirates 4, or the new Dune books, because to continue another tier would require WotC to backtrack and say "Oh, wait, you know that Immortality you had when you completed your Epic Destiny? Well...something happened to it and now you have to keep adventuring"
Why do people have a problem with closure? Closure is a good thing. Having that Final Chapter allows you to close one story completely, and start a new one without feeling that nagging, lingering feeling that you want to "go back and finish" with the previous character.
And you wanna fight Bane? Good, stat him out as a level 35 solo or something. I am entirely without opposition to the idea of using epic magicks or artifacts or whatever to weaken him to a point where he can be defeated by level 30 characters. Same goes for Asmodeus, Tharizdun, etc.
There's nothing about the current design mechanic of 4e that is "incomplete". If anything, your problem (and those others that wish a 4th tier) is that it IS complete, and you percieve that as some kind of hurdle that you need to surpass because you can't be satisfied.
WotC is not considering a 4th tier because th philosphy is that you can do everything with the 3 tiers as presented, but they are also, paradoxically, holding some things unable to be accomplised within them. Namely things like killing greater evil deities.
To be perfectly honest, I don't really want a fourth tier. What I want is for WotC to recognize this contradiction, and correct it by officially making ALL GODS defeatable by 30th level characters.
But if they stick to their guns and fall back on simulationist world design and say that the God of War should be stronger that the gods of Secrets or Greed, and therefore has to be higher than level 35, and therefore is undefeatable by level 30 characters, THEN I want rules to advance my 30th level characters in some way, shape, or form so that they CAN defeat level 36+ solos.
(And characters don't automatically fufill their Immortalities at 30. They only do so upon completing their Destiny Quest. If that's defeating Bane, then going by the current official design philosophy they will never fufill it, and never become immortal. And again, being able to houserule otherwise doesn't make the contradiction of the official design philosophy any less contradictory.)
With regards to the DMG3, I believe that it will come eventually. It is not necessary at the moment, however, so it's better to hold it off for a year or two. For the record, though, both DMG's 1 and 2 are good buys for me as a DM.
Now, with regards to the power cap, I agree with AvonRekaes in that having some gods so far above the likes of Demogorgon and Orcus (who flavorwise is supposed to be feared by even these gods) doesn't make too much sense. I personally would like to see Bane at levels 36-38 (40 is too high). At the worst, level 38 will still be defeatable if you bring the Old Man with the Canaries (or some other attack/damage bonus fiat) along.
However, I do not agree with AvonRekaes' "4th edition philosophy" that you can do everything with the three tiers presented. Even at 30th leel, I don't see characters facing, say, Galactus. To people who want to have the opportunity to fight someone of that power level, raising the level cap beyond 30 seems to be the most appropriate thing to do...
But I don't see WotC doing that for 4E. The demand for it is simply too low. If I were to look for a level cap increase, I would look to (good) 3rd party publishers to do it. Sure it won't be official, but it's better than nothing, right?
One particular publisher of interest is indeed doing just that. And based on what few books he has released in the 3.5 era, I would have to say that I really vouch for this guy's ability to handle cap-raising. Ever heard of Upper_Krust? His Immortals Handbook is getting a thorough conversion to 4E, which begins with his Vampire Bestiary. Go ahead, check it out. :P
Oh, my. And here I was thinking that this active discussion is about the DMG3. >.>
With regards to the DMG3, I believe that it will come eventually. It is not necessary at the moment, however, so it's better to hold it off for a year or two. For the record, though, both DMG's 1 and 2 are good buys for me as a DM.
Now, with regards to the power cap, I agree with AvonRekaes in that having some gods so far above the likes of Demogorgon and Orcus (who flavorwise is supposed to be feared by even these gods) doesn't make too much sense. I personally would like to see Bane at levels 36-38 (40 is too high). At the worst, level 38 will still be defeatable if you bring the Old Man with the Canaries (or some other attack/damage bonus fiat) along.
However, I do not agree with AvonRekaes' "4th edition philosophy" that you can do everything with the three tiers presented. Even at 30th leel, I don't see characters facing, say, Galactus. To people who want to have the opportunity to fight someone of that power level, raising the level cap beyond 30 seems to be the most appropriate thing to do...
But I don't see WotC doing that for 4E. The demand for it is simply too low. If I were to look for a level cap increase, I would look to (good) 3rd party publishers to do it. Sure it won't be official, but it's better than nothing, right?
One particular publisher of interest is indeed doing just that. And based on what few books he has released in the 3.5 era, I would have to say that I really vouch for this guy's ability to handle cap-raising. Ever heard of Upper_Krust? His Immortals Handbook is getting a thorough conversion to 4E, which begins with his Vampire Bestiary. Go ahead, check it out. :P
This is the kind of thing I was referring to. If they guy gets alot of attention for homebrewing 4e up to level 40, WoTC will take notice. That being said after 30 levels of play, another 10 fighting against some combo of sci-fi and Lovecraftian horrors seems a little brutal.
And the EDs which tie the character to the Material Plane as a bodiless Primal Spirit? That guy can't do much active slaying of monsters. And the rest of the party may not be interested in a campaign focusing only on one guy's insurrection to be put down.
were talking about an epic guardian spirit hes not concerned with going into the cave after the goblins. i just dont see it as a big a problem as you do i guess. by the time weve reached 3oth level youve established a certain amount of interdependance within the party. freeing the pc from the shadowfell means leaving hell where the usurper takes control and leads an army of hellish minions into the prime material hence requiring the intervention of the guardian spirit.
Such might make for interesting stories, but not really good gaming. And not within the confines of the DnD ruleset.
your preferance for what makes good gaming and mine are just diferent i guess. and as i said before in both second edition and odnd there were rules for doing just the same things i said and i had alot of fun with them so its not the d&d ruleset simply this edition.
You're comparing Apples to Oranges here. The Belgariad and Mallorean were INTENDED as a five book series. Things that were designed as trilogies that "tack on" a fourth installment (especially one much much later i.e. Indiana jones) are generally fail. But that isn't limited to trilogies alone. Any series that had an intended stopping point and is then picked up later usually sucks. Look at what Frank Herbert's son is doing to DUNE.
Epic tier in 4e is fine as is, this "immortal tier" or whatever you want to call it IS Indiana Jones 4 or Pirates 4, or the new Dune books, because to continue another tier would require WotC to backtrack and say "Oh, wait, you know that Immortality you had when you completed your Epic Destiny? Well...something happened to it and now you have to keep adventuring"
Why do people have a problem with closure? Closure is a good thing. Having that Final Chapter allows you to close one story completely, and start a new one without feeling that nagging, lingering feeling that you want to "go back and finish" with the previous character.
And you wanna fight Bane? Good, stat him out as a level 35 solo or something. I am entirely without opposition to the idea of using epic magicks or artifacts or whatever to weaken him to a point where he can be defeated by level 30 characters. Same goes for Asmodeus, Tharizdun, etc.
There's nothing about the current design mechanic of 4e that is "incomplete". If anything, your problem (and those others that wish a 4th tier) is that it IS complete, and you percieve that as some kind of hurdle that you need to surpass because you can't be satisfied.
it is incomplete and if you see it the game lends itself to that feeling. notice how in epic your at will powers become relevant again. it plays almost like heroic tier part two. which i understand alot of people really enjoy and thats fine but it also means your sitting through it again without the hope of another paragon path. when do i get to stop being the underdog and just get to be uber nasty and cool? closure isnt having to magic down bane its being able to stand amongst the legends of the game.
im unsatisifed because this was an option for me in previous editions and ive tended to follow it through.the thrill of d&d was always its ongoing feel the idea that what my characters did was going to be relevant going forward. now every campaign is dragonlance. you play the one hero and then have to write up a whole new world. just pick up the controller already. play it beat it put it down and walk away. i have like 10,000 options like that what d&d offered was something different and theyve taken that away.
i understand theres alot of edition hatred and most of it is baseless but at the same time im not going to be some apologist and say the game works for the kind of stories i want to tell. i think theres enough people out there that enjoy those kinds of games that eventually an iommortal tier is coming. if i could work all the kinks out myself then id be collecting a check from wizards im obviously not. but the game as currently constituted imo is flawed without one.
What your characters did is relevant going forward. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. "Play it beat it put it down and walk away?" A game from 1st-30th, at the rate -most- groups play, would take 150 sessions, and if that's once a week, 3 years. That can hardly be compared to some one-play video game. It's a long adventure, and there needs to be closure at some point. And the significance of your destiny quest should tie directly into the final battle of epic tier, which should be a cosmos-changing event. It's -very- significant.
And if you -really- want to see the effects of that, make your next 1st level characters in the world that has been changed by your heroes from the last adventure. A world without the Goddess of Greed will be a very different one indeed. Maybe the heroes (and all adventurers) are labeled as criminals for gathering loot, now that Greed doesn't have it's rightful place in the cosmos. There could and should be significant ramifications of your final battle and epic destinies, and not all of those are always good.
*cough*
We just need another article that will feature Bane's cosmic weakness; something that will drain him of his power.
On the other hand, it's pretty easy for your DM (or you, if you're DMing) to make that yourself. Creating monsters, even deities, is easy now with the Monster Builder.
Why does the crunch need to be official? This game is all about making the tools necessary so that you can play the game you want, and in a way that doesn't compromise the game that the other player's want. It's rather easy to make your own crunch now, and I really don't see why you -need- official stats for Bane.
Avon, there are easier fixes for that than retconning in gamebreaking tiers.
We just need another article that will feature Bane's cosmic weakness; something that will drain him of his power.
On the other hand, it's pretty easy for your DM (or you, if you're DMing) to make that yourself. Creating monsters, even deities, is easy now with the Monster Builder.
Why does the crunch need to be official? This game is all about making the tools necessary so that you can play the game you want, and in a way that doesn't compromise the game that the other player's want. It's rather easy to make your own crunch now, and I really don't see why you -need- official stats for Bane.
Marandhir, I'm using Bane as an example so primarily because so far it's the only one we have. But my problem isn't so much the lack of official stats for him (I've discussed several ways to homebrew a campaign around defeating him).
My problem is the design philosophy that is self-contradictory. That the game ends at 30 because there are no stories left to be told after 30, but at the same time, bizarrely, the game places iconic villians outside of the reach of the PCs to defeat.
There was no Deities and Demigods article on Tharzidun, so there's been no official word or cannonical hint if he's too high-level to fight. But lets pretend that WotC figures the Chained God is one of the worst threats to the multiverse, rightly so, and places him around level 38 or 39 and doesn't release his stats.
So the official game does not support the story of taking down the architect of the Abyss, the sunderer of the Living Gate, the Mad God. Why put in all this lore about what a great villian Tharzidun is, if we aren't meant to defeat him? Why decide in the first place that the game will not inately support certains stories? Why decide that the game will end before PCs can defeat the Mad God, or excise the idea of War for War's sake from the multiverse? Why are those stories officially unsupported when removing Greed or defeating Vecna is?
My objection is made to challenge the designer's philosophy behind level 35+ enemies. Just like an Adventure's background is utterly wasted if the PCs never hear it, these post-epic villians are being wasted if they can never be defeated. Yes, Gods have their devotees and their churches that you can defeat, but I wonder why the officially supported story for using Bane as a villian is "fight all of his minions up to and including his avatars and exarchs, but then give up because you'll never ever defeat him."
And yes, I know, homebrew. But that doesn't change the fact that the designers willingly chose, in their minds and in the game, to stop supporting the story right before the climax. That is not a behavior I want to encourage or excuse by saying I can fix it, even if I'm perfectly capable of doing so.
And why should my players settle for a cosmically weakened Bane? Why even decide in the first place that Bane has to be weakened first, moreso than any other deity (beyond merely removing discoproration) to be defeated? Why not just make him level 35 to begin with? Why even decide that there are beings that exist that cannot be defeated by PCs?
To me, that isn't DnD, and especially not epic-tier DnD. It sounds like a little bit of Call of Cthulhu got mixed in there, enforcing that the player characters are ultimately isignificant. For all their vaunted epic-destiny-fufilling power, they will never be able to defeat the most powerful enemies in existance. Bane will go right on conquering, Tharzidun will always be a threat to the multiverse, Asmodeus will always have a diabolical plan waiting in the wings, and any other entity the designers arbitrarily decide to stick in that pantheon of "you will never be good enough to face this" will always threaten the world, and there is nothing the PCs can do, ever, to stop it.
And once again, yes, I know, homebrew. But my problem is the fact that this is the prevailing philosophy behind the game, whether I can do otherwise in my game speaks to how great the system is. If I had a problem with the game itself, I'd obviously not be posting on the DnD board. My problem is with the intent of the designer to make this kind of story only possible with homebrew.
My problem is the design philosophy that is self-contradictory. That the game ends at 30 because there are no stories left to be told after 30, but at the same time, bizarrely, the game places iconic villians outside of the reach of the PCs to defeat.
Why must everything be within a players ability to defeat, in my mind there should always be someone or something bigger stronger and more powerful so that when players get out of hand or arrogant they can be snapped back into place. Also the players at lvl 30 are akin to minor gods but are not gods themselves, and should act that way. Yes lvl 30 characters are powerful but they are not the most powerful beings in the world or universe.
Also, what need have you of using the bitch-slap of a supreme-powered authority figure on 30th level PCs? Why do it even if you can? Your game's about to end. The game is ending. What exactly do you need to stop them from doing, ruining your carefully planned cosmology that they've been adventuring in for 3+ years and are only now capable of effecting? What are they going to "ruin" it for? What are you so worried they're going to do in the last few session before they all transcend into immortality and can't adventure anymore (as others in the thread are pointing out)?
All I'm saying it why end the game when there's story left to be told? Like rebelling against that supreme-powered authority figure and supplanting him. How is that any different from the tyrant-king you may have used as an end boss for the Heroic tier? Why is toppling him okay, becoming as powerful and then suprassing his authority, and not Bane, Tharzidun, Asmodeus, or whoever else WotC decides is arbitrarily off-limits?
Why should player's ambitions to defeat the evil king be encoruage but his ambitions to defeat the evil god at the end of the game be squashed because he's not acting like the lowly demigod you think he should be satisfied with being? And if your answer is "you have to draw the line somewhere", why on God's green earth do you draw the line arbitrarily in the middle of the evil god category? Why are some gods okay to defeat but not others? I makes no gods-be-damned sense.
And if you absolutely must feel the need to smack down players at the height of their power, remember that only a team of them has any chance to defeat even defeatable gods. It's not as if any one PC can threaten Vecna, even though he's statted (Without supreme charop cheese). Tiamat and Vecna are individually more powerful than any PC, and you could use either of them as a bitch-slap of authority on even 30th level PCs if you single them out. Or, hell, have two gods show up at once and watch the TPK waiting to happen. It's not as if the DM can't stack the deck in his favor at any time.
I mean no disrespect but it sounds like you're trying to hold on to some sort of DM power trip. To keep the railroad option even at the very end of the game when the PCs should be able to make their own decisions and have them reverberate and felt across the planes. That's what Epic is for, in my opinion.
And yes, I know, homebrew. But that doesn't change the fact that the designers willingly chose, in their minds and in the game, to stop supporting the story right before the climax. That is not a behavior I want to encourage or excuse by saying I can fix it, even if I'm perfectly capable of doing so.
And why should my players settle for a cosmically weakened Bane? Why even decide in the first place that Bane has to be weakened first, moreso than any other deity (beyond merely removing discoproration) to be defeated? Why not just make him level 35 to begin with? Why even decide that there are beings that exist that cannot be defeated by PCs?
Because they feel that puts the game in the right place. You can't please anyone. There are posters out there upset that any gods have stats that let them be defeated. There are posters (like yourself) who want all the gods to be right in the realm of being direct challenges to the PCs.
I'm fine with their decision. They are saying outright that the gods are generally more powerful than most other big bads (Demon Lords, Primordials, Archfey), and that the most powerful gods are beyond them. If they weaken the most powerful gods to make them as directly surmountable by PCs, they then have to weaken all the existing ones, as well - and you start ending up with gods who are level 28 or so, or lower. Who are trivial, at that point, for level 30 PCs. Suddenly, you've ruined all of those "endings" for other campaigns.
Look, I totally understand your frustration if you really want to build a campaign around fighting Bane. But it is indeed a design decision they made, and one they made for good reasons, for the benefit of many players of the game. I'd wager the number of people who are frustrated by the lack of a combatable Bane (without applying homebrew modifications) are far, far fewer than how many would have their games disrupted by scaling down the power level of deities by a half-dozen levels.
The fact is, a DM can get around this if they really needs to. You can't satisfy everyone, and some portion of the audience will need to deal with rules that aren't directly written for them. In this case, I think your needs are in the minority, and so they would rather the handful of DMs who ever need to run Bane go ahead and do the homebrewing to do so, rather than make an adjustment that would inconvenience a far larger number of gamers.
I'm fine with that. I understand where you are coming from and I sympathize, but I don't think making the change you want would improve the game as a whole.
To bring up a counter-point though, I think it's a little silly that one can objectively say "my god is three levels higher than yours". I think the game as a whole would be better if all gods were level 35. They've already moved away from calling gods Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater, but are for some reason sticking to the idea, even when it makes some stories unable to be told.
In other words, I don't see why Bane or Tharzidun or Asmodeus being level 35 should make Tiamat any lower, from a game-design perspective.
To any individual campaign, any of the evil gods would be an excellent game-ending encounter. So make every god an excellent game-ending monster, so DMs can pick-and-choose. It's all about the PC perspective in 4e monster design. Monster levels in 4e aren't supposed to be like CRs in 3.x. Stats are not supposed to be hard-coded objective measures of a creature's power (If they were, every human lackey would be living in fear of paper cuts, cause as a minion even one hit point of damage would kill him), they're supposed to be the comparative strength of the creature relative to the PCs. I don't see why one god should be appreciatively stronger, relative to the PCs, than another. Shouldn't they all be so far above the PCs that differences in power are negligible?
Saying that Bane is the god of war and therefore should be higher level than Vecna does not make sense in terms of good game design. It's okay to say that Frost Giants should be higher level foes than Hobgoblins, but that's because saying that doesn't propell Frost Giants out of the game. 4e is better, in my opinion, for being less a fantasy world simulation and more a fantasy world game. I think the game would be better if they abstracted all the differences in power between gods to nebulous things like range of influence or number of worshipers, and keep all the gods personally at the same combat strength, so they're all usable as end-game encounters.
(Oh, and as far as the food chain scenario, when your PCs become the lions, and the gods can no longer take them on individually, why can't be gods be smart enough to become the humans and attack them enmass, as a pantheon? There is absolutely no way the PCs could survive a fight against Vecna, Tiamat, and Torog at the same time. Even a god-killing party has to worry about attracting attention.)
As for power gamers, I'm not sure why you'd have to be a power gamer to want to take on gods. All I've been talking about is story, not min-maxing. Is fighting against supreme authority of the multiverse really that dismissive of a story that you'd jump to painting me (the DM) as a power gamer? It's not as if only optimized characters can defeat gods in 4e. I just have a problem with the arbitrary decision to place ending War and possibly Madness or Tyranny as impossible tasks while ending Greed, Torture, and Secrets isn't.
...Also, you know what's funny? I was just looking over all the released god stats (I had forgotten about Torog. Man that picture is nasty.) and I realized that there's currently no reason not to release stats for a level 38 or 39 Bane. The PCs can defeat him without any fourth tier or houserules or cosmic weaknesses. They just have to convince Bahamut to help them, and the Old Man with the Canaries can buff their attacks and damage well into the range necessary to take on that level of a solo. (Or does the God of Honor and Nobility only go after weaker enemies like Tiamat, who's one level lower than him? :P)