Do we need some new Axes? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Do we need some new Axes?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
doctorproctor
Feb 16, 2009 8:51:54 It seems to me that we might need some new Axes in AV II or PHB II. Most of the Hammers are already about equal to Axes, if not slightly outdamaging them. Once you add in Hammer Rhythm though, Hammers start to really pass up the Axes...and since that feat is almost universally taken by all STR/CON Fighters, that means Hammers become practically the default choice.

Me personally though, I just like Axes and would like to see them remain competitive. Do you think that if we got some new Axes that were a bit higher in terms in damage that it would even things out?
#2
birdursh
Feb 16, 2009 9:03:28 My only real issue with axes is that the special axe feat is made redundant by many of the big axes already being high crit weapons, and isn't nearly as helpful as still damaging people on a miss. I think the axes are fine, it's the feat what needs changing.

(Unless they did in some errata I haven't read)
#3
cadfan
Feb 16, 2009 13:07:39 Axes are better than people think. High critical is a more useful power than most people think it is, particularly when your [W] value is 1d12, brutal 2.

Mordenkrad damage per [W] averages 8. The Executioner's Axe averages 7.5, with high critical.

I do agree that the axe feat that grants high critical is a little redundant for most axes, but its not like anyone has to take it. And axes get more mileage out of the epic feats that improve your critical range.
#4
doctorproctor
Feb 16, 2009 16:15:54 Yes, but the problem is that Hammer Rhythm throws all of that out of whack. Assuming you miss about 50% of the time and make 20 attacks, you'll do 10 extra damage per point of CON mod. With an 18 or so at Paragon (easy to get for non-dwarves) this means we're talking about an extra 40 points of damage over 20 attacks.

Because you tend to miss more frequently than you crit, Hammers can quickly come to a point where they're outdamaging Axes over time. Combine that with some of the favoritism shown in powers (check out the level 23 powers in the PHB) and it makes Hammers a much more logical weapon choice. That's why I'm wondering if we maybe increased the based damage of the existing Axes slightly, it might bring things more into line. Hammers would be more consistent, but Axes would be capable of more damage on a hit and a bigger spike in damage on a crit.
#5
cadfan
Feb 16, 2009 17:28:38 I'd encourage you not to consider hammer rhythm in comparing the two weapons. Its not like hammer wielders get hammer rhythm for free while axe wielders get nothing. The axe wielder is still taking a feat.

Now, about hammer rhythm- For a typical character with regular stats, its probably adding about 4 damage per miss for most of the paragon tier. If, considering various bonuses from allies, fighter bonuses, flanking, and everything else, you miss around 35% of the time (you typically hit on an 8+), hammer rhythm gives you .35*4= 1.4 damage per round. With the additional .5 you get because 2d6 brutal 1 is better than 1d12 brutal 2, we'll call this a bonus DRP of 1.9 over baseline.

The executioner's axe, by contrast, has high criticals. That means that every critical hit at paragon tier you get an additional 2d12 brutal 2, for an additional average damage of 15. .05*15 = .75.

That gives the hammer rhythm guy a damage per round advantage of 1.15 in the paragon tier. Of course, he had an extra feat, so all the axe guy needs to do is find a feat that he considers worth 1.15 damage per round. Weapon Focus actually IS worth that much, just for the record. I know the hammer wielder can take that too; I mention it just to provide some calibration.

Of course at epic tier things change again. The hammer wielder gains a little boost to his constitution. The axe wielder gains an additional 1d12 brutal 2 per critical. Both of them gain the ability to critically hit on a 19+.

This gives the hammer guy a bonus above baseline of about .35*6 = 2.1, plus 1 for the damage advantage of a mordenkrad over an executioner's axe (its 1 now instead of .5 because [W] values double on at will attacks). The axe guy now has 22.5*.1 = 2.25. He's now in the lead, and he STILL has that extra feat he never spent on hammer rhythm.

So what's the point of all of this?

1. These weapons are really close together in terms of power. Seriously, we're dealing with fractions of a point of damage per round.
2. The hammer is slightly better at paragon tier.
3. The axe is slightly better at epic tier.
4. So maybe we should just call it a wash.

PS- obviously you can create builds where this math changes. If the hammer wielder has a higher constitution, for example, things change. But they don't change very much.
#6
rovin
Feb 16, 2009 18:39:30 Axe Mastery (at Epic) only requires a 17 Con, which is much easier to qualify for than Bludgeon Mastery's 19. That, in turn, is two points free for other stats. Being able to raise a secondary/tertiary stat by two is pretty darn useful with many builds. You could just pump Str and Con all the way to 30th to max your Hammer Rhythm effects, but I'm betting two points of, say, Wisdom is actually better for many Fighter, Paladin and Ranger builds.
#7
dark_lambo
Feb 16, 2009 22:30:06 No vorpal hammers.
#8
freylorn
Feb 16, 2009 22:43:50 No, but there are bloodclaw mordenkrads.
#9
doctorproctor
Feb 16, 2009 23:38:38 @Cadfan:

Yeah, but that's comparing 2 handers. When someone is using a 1-handed weapon and a shield, as I am, you're not getting the benefit of the free high crit, not the brutal 2 on your damage dice (1d10 with Battleaxe, 1d12 with Waraxe).

In those scenarios, wouldn't the Hammers win out over time since Hammer Rhythm doesn't care if you're wielding a 2-hand or 1-hand Hammer? As opposed to say, Power Attack or Weapon Focus, which does care.

As for the enchantments, I was thinking of going with Jagged through Paragon (combined with the Deadly Axes feat) and then probably changing to something like Vicious at Epic and getting Vorpal at lvl 30. In other words, I'll be trying to embrace the High Crit goodies as best I can. :D
#10
mplindustries
Feb 17, 2009 0:14:32 Whatever the issue is, new axes are not going to solve anything. New axe feats will.

And while they're at it, they desperately need new Flail feats, and I'd love to see a Mace feat or two. I'm also partial to spears, but they share most of the polearm feats already. Light Blades could use something making them attractive to fighters. Oh, and Picks. Personally, I don't care, but I know people are upset that Picks get no love.
#11
cadfan
Feb 17, 2009 2:28:19
@Cadfan:

Yeah, but that's comparing 2 handers. When someone is using a 1-handed weapon and a shield, as I am, you're not getting the benefit of the free high crit, not the brutal 2 on your damage dice (1d10 with Battleaxe, 1d12 with Waraxe).

In those scenarios, wouldn't the Hammers win out over time since Hammer Rhythm doesn't care if you're wielding a 2-hand or 1-hand Hammer? As opposed to say, Power Attack or Weapon Focus, which does care.

Not really. I'm going to skip the detailed math, but basically

The craghammer does 1d10 brutal 2. The waraxe does 1d12. These are equal, except that the waraxe does 2 more points of damage on a critcal hit.

If you add in hammer rhythm, you get the usual advantages it gives you. You'll be ahead by 1.4 above baseline. High critical, combined with the better [w] value for critical hits, will put the waraxe up by .75 over baseline. So yes, with these stats, the hammer has an advantage, but its only an advantage of .65 damage per round.

And of course, again, that changes at epic tier.

There the hammer keeps plugging along, but the advantage of high critical increases, the extra [W] doubles the advantage of a d12 over d10 brutal 2 on critical hits, and the chance of a critical hit doubles if you take the appropriate feats.

At that point, if you have a 20 constitution, hammer rhythm will help the craghammer deal 1.75 over baseline.

Meanwhile the waraxe is upped to 2.35 over baseline.

So again, the difference in power level is very small, it happens only on certain levels, and it reverses on other levels.

Its well within the "don't worry about it and just game" range.
#12
dark_lambo
Feb 17, 2009 10:14:21
No, but there are bloodclaw mordenkrads.

But Vorpal is Teh Awesome! :D

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1044906

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 doctorproctor Feb 16, 2009 8:51:54	It seems to me that we might need some new Axes in AV II or PHB II. Most of the Hammers are already about equal to Axes, if not slightly outdamaging them. Once you add in Hammer Rhythm though, Hammers start to really pass up the Axes...and since that feat is almost universally taken by all STR/CON Fighters, that means Hammers become practically the default choice. Me personally though, I just like Axes and would like to see them remain competitive. Do you think that if we got some new Axes that were a bit higher in terms in damage that it would even things out?
#2 birdursh Feb 16, 2009 9:03:28	My only real issue with axes is that the special axe feat is made redundant by many of the big axes already being high crit weapons, and isn't nearly as helpful as still damaging people on a miss. I think the axes are fine, it's the feat what needs changing. (Unless they did in some errata I haven't read)
#3 cadfan Feb 16, 2009 13:07:39	Axes are better than people think. High critical is a more useful power than most people think it is, particularly when your [W] value is 1d12, brutal 2. Mordenkrad damage per [W] averages 8. The Executioner's Axe averages 7.5, with high critical. I do agree that the axe feat that grants high critical is a little redundant for most axes, but its not like anyone has to take it. And axes get more mileage out of the epic feats that improve your critical range.
#4 doctorproctor Feb 16, 2009 16:15:54	Yes, but the problem is that Hammer Rhythm throws all of that out of whack. Assuming you miss about 50% of the time and make 20 attacks, you'll do 10 extra damage per point of CON mod. With an 18 or so at Paragon (easy to get for non-dwarves) this means we're talking about an extra 40 points of damage over 20 attacks. Because you tend to miss more frequently than you crit, Hammers can quickly come to a point where they're outdamaging Axes over time. Combine that with some of the favoritism shown in powers (check out the level 23 powers in the PHB) and it makes Hammers a much more logical weapon choice. That's why I'm wondering if we maybe increased the based damage of the existing Axes slightly, it might bring things more into line. Hammers would be more consistent, but Axes would be capable of more damage on a hit and a bigger spike in damage on a crit.
#5 cadfan Feb 16, 2009 17:28:38	I'd encourage you not to consider hammer rhythm in comparing the two weapons. Its not like hammer wielders get hammer rhythm for free while axe wielders get nothing. The axe wielder is still taking a feat. Now, about hammer rhythm- For a typical character with regular stats, its probably adding about 4 damage per miss for most of the paragon tier. If, considering various bonuses from allies, fighter bonuses, flanking, and everything else, you miss around 35% of the time (you typically hit on an 8+), hammer rhythm gives you .354= 1.4 damage per round. With the additional .5 you get because 2d6 brutal 1 is better than 1d12 brutal 2, we'll call this a bonus DRP of 1.9 over baseline. The executioner's axe, by contrast, has high criticals. That means that every critical hit at paragon tier you get an additional 2d12 brutal 2, for an additional average damage of 15. .0515 = .75. That gives the hammer rhythm guy a damage per round advantage of 1.15 in the paragon tier. Of course, he had an extra feat, so all the axe guy needs to do is find a feat that he considers worth 1.15 damage per round. Weapon Focus actually IS worth that much, just for the record. I know the hammer wielder can take that too; I mention it just to provide some calibration. Of course at epic tier things change again. The hammer wielder gains a little boost to his constitution. The axe wielder gains an additional 1d12 brutal 2 per critical. Both of them gain the ability to critically hit on a 19+. This gives the hammer guy a bonus above baseline of about .356 = 2.1, plus 1 for the damage advantage of a mordenkrad over an executioner's axe (its 1 now instead of .5 because [W] values double on at will attacks). The axe guy now has 22.5.1 = 2.25. He's now in the lead, and he STILL has that extra feat he never spent on hammer rhythm. So what's the point of all of this? 1. These weapons are really close together in terms of power. Seriously, we're dealing with fractions of a point of damage per round. 2. The hammer is slightly better at paragon tier. 3. The axe is slightly better at epic tier. 4. So maybe we should just call it a wash. PS- obviously you can create builds where this math changes. If the hammer wielder has a higher constitution, for example, things change. But they don't change very much.
#6 rovin Feb 16, 2009 18:39:30	Axe Mastery (at Epic) only requires a 17 Con, which is much easier to qualify for than Bludgeon Mastery's 19. That, in turn, is two points free for other stats. Being able to raise a secondary/tertiary stat by two is pretty darn useful with many builds. You could just pump Str and Con all the way to 30th to max your Hammer Rhythm effects, but I'm betting two points of, say, Wisdom is actually better for many Fighter, Paladin and Ranger builds.
#7 dark_lambo Feb 16, 2009 22:30:06	No vorpal hammers.
#8 freylorn Feb 16, 2009 22:43:50	No, but there are bloodclaw mordenkrads.
#9 doctorproctor Feb 16, 2009 23:38:38	@Cadfan: Yeah, but that's comparing 2 handers. When someone is using a 1-handed weapon and a shield, as I am, you're not getting the benefit of the free high crit, not the brutal 2 on your damage dice (1d10 with Battleaxe, 1d12 with Waraxe). In those scenarios, wouldn't the Hammers win out over time since Hammer Rhythm doesn't care if you're wielding a 2-hand or 1-hand Hammer? As opposed to say, Power Attack or Weapon Focus, which does care. As for the enchantments, I was thinking of going with Jagged through Paragon (combined with the Deadly Axes feat) and then probably changing to something like Vicious at Epic and getting Vorpal at lvl 30. In other words, I'll be trying to embrace the High Crit goodies as best I can. :D
#10 mplindustries Feb 17, 2009 0:14:32	Whatever the issue is, new axes are not going to solve anything. New axe feats will. And while they're at it, they desperately need new Flail feats, and I'd love to see a Mace feat or two. I'm also partial to spears, but they share most of the polearm feats already. Light Blades could use something making them attractive to fighters. Oh, and Picks. Personally, I don't care, but I know people are upset that Picks get no love.
#11 cadfan Feb 17, 2009 2:28:19	@Cadfan: Yeah, but that's comparing 2 handers. When someone is using a 1-handed weapon and a shield, as I am, you're not getting the benefit of the free high crit, not the brutal 2 on your damage dice (1d10 with Battleaxe, 1d12 with Waraxe). In those scenarios, wouldn't the Hammers win out over time since Hammer Rhythm doesn't care if you're wielding a 2-hand or 1-hand Hammer? As opposed to say, Power Attack or Weapon Focus, which does care. Not really. I'm going to skip the detailed math, but basically The craghammer does 1d10 brutal 2. The waraxe does 1d12. These are equal, except that the waraxe does 2 more points of damage on a critcal hit. If you add in hammer rhythm, you get the usual advantages it gives you. You'll be ahead by 1.4 above baseline. High critical, combined with the better [w] value for critical hits, will put the waraxe up by .75 over baseline. So yes, with these stats, the hammer has an advantage, but its only an advantage of .65 damage per round. And of course, again, that changes at epic tier. There the hammer keeps plugging along, but the advantage of high critical increases, the extra [W] doubles the advantage of a d12 over d10 brutal 2 on critical hits, and the chance of a critical hit doubles if you take the appropriate feats. At that point, if you have a 20 constitution, hammer rhythm will help the craghammer deal 1.75 over baseline. Meanwhile the waraxe is upped to 2.35 over baseline. So again, the difference in power level is very small, it happens only on certain levels, and it reverses on other levels. Its well within the "don't worry about it and just game" range.
#12 dark_lambo Feb 17, 2009 10:14:21	No, but there are bloodclaw mordenkrads. But Vorpal is Teh Awesome! :D http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1044906