Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mcnancy May 19, 2009 21:04:50	There is some confusion as to what the Shadow and Elemental sources are going to be and what they represent. For all any of us know they could both be very interesting, but do we really need any new power sources? I don't really know what either of them are, but people have some pretty good guesses and there have been some cool ideas about the stuff they could bring to the table, but do we need new power sources to make that stuff happen? Now that we know there are going to be more than four classes of some power sources via PHBs, some people are having trouble seeing how our current PSs are going to expand, if we integrated Shadow and Elemental, couldn't we just make due with Martial, Divine, Arcane, Primal and Psionic? Most people seemed to have liked the idea of integrating Ki into other power sources, and some people have their doubts about where Shadow and Elemental fit in. My feelings and Ideas on the matter are this; I want shadow and elemental classes, there's a lot of potential, but I think it would be simpler to put them in our current power sources, because there already seems to be some overlap. What do guys think are the pro's and con's of having or not having Shadow and/or Elemental?
#2 anubis_reynard May 19, 2009 21:10:06	It's not that most power sources overlap, it's that Arcane does everything- Appropriate, I suppose, for a bard, but something that needs to be reined in for the other classes.
#3 rampant May 19, 2009 21:16:38	Well the first thing I feel the need to say is this: Is there any reason to suspect that elemental is a blaster power source. The assumption seems to be that it will have a heavy focus on energy attacks, however elemental isn't just tossing fire at people. In 4e it's associated with the creation of the material plane and part of the essential spark of most natural creatures, as well as being affiliated with archons, elementals, primordials, giants, and demons. I could very well see a full on summoner class being an elemental leader, or a demon binder of some sort, possibly some sort of buff-monster class that calls aspects of such creatures to aid himself and his allies.
#4 xi_mao May 19, 2009 21:32:15	Pros on having Shadow/Elemental classes - -Since each power source lends a particular Flavor to a given class (Most divine classes have access to healing or Pseudo-healing powers, Most arcane classes can dish out a wide range of damage types, ect.) having more flavors is generally beneficial. I personally see Shadow as a Decaying/Corrupting force, so I would predict a fair amount of DoT type effects and such, images of brutal fighters whose weapons cause necrosis where they cut, and mages whose attacks drain the soul of energy and such. -More Power Sources means that WOTC can make more books in the "Power" series of books...so more money into their pockets. More money into their pockets means more product is produced and released. Positive Feedback Loop. Cons on having Shadow/Elemental classes - - More Power Sources means that there would need to be more time devoted to different "Power" books. In general it means less time dedicated to developing more content for already existing Power Sources leading to watered down and possibly less well thought out content releases, or longer waiting periods between books for a given source. - More Power Sources also means that there would be a need to support those power sources. Introducing a power source, realizing that the source isn't as rich as one had hoped, then basically dropping the source because it's hard to work with will upset many people, even discounting those who will complain about having/not having more/less of a given power source.
#5 mushrooman May 19, 2009 21:38:02	Pros on having Shadow/Elemental classes - -Since each power source lends a particular Flavor to a given class (Most divine classes have access to healing or Pseudo-healing powers, Most arcane classes can dish out a wide range of damage types, ect.) having more flavors is generally beneficial. I personally see Shadow as a Decaying/Corrupting force, so I would predict a fair amount of DoT type effects and such, images of brutal fighters whose weapons cause necrosis where they cut, and mages whose attacks drain the soul of energy and such. -More Power Sources means that WOTC can make more books in the "Power" series of books...so more money into their pockets. More money into their pockets means more product is produced and released. Positive Feedback Loop. Cons on having Shadow/Elemental classes - - More Power Sources means that there would need to be more time devoted to different "Power" books. In general it means less time dedicated to developing more content for already existing Power Sources leading to watered down and possibly less well thought out content releases, or longer waiting periods between books for a given source. - More Power Sources also means that there would be a need to support those power sources. Introducing a power source, realizing that the source isn't as rich as one had hoped, then basically dropping the source because it's hard to work with will upset many people, even discounting those who will complain about having/not having more/less of a given power source. What he said, I just want to add that any shadow/elemental class I can think up of or have seen before can easily be put into one of the existing power sources.
#6 cadfan May 19, 2009 21:44:02	Since we don't actually know (except in very broad terms through inferences from relatively old sources of information) what the shadow or elemental power sources are intended to do, this question is impossible to answer. I'm willing to give WotC the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have some design document somewhere that spells out the reason there will be a shadow and elemental power source, with accompanying notes on what sorts of things they'll be good at and how they'll be different from other power sources. As a general rule, arguments of the form "I can't imagine X, so X can't be done" are almost always the sort of argument that leaves you looking silly in the long term. There's a sort of hubris to them, an implied "I can't imagine this so therefore no one else ever will" vibe to it. So maybe I, personally, don't have any good ideas for elemental power that wouldn't fit under Arcane. So what? That doesn't mean that Elemental doesn't need to exist. What I personally think up is not the sum of all possible D&D game design.
#7 xi_mao May 19, 2009 21:58:04	I agree with you Cadfan, however, until someone DOES come along and say "Well, This Class is Elemental, and here's why it doesn't fit into Arcane, Divine, or any other Power source!" it is actually quite silly to say that something should have a place. As it stands, Elemental doesn't need to exist because there are no good ideas on what Elemental classes could be and how they can stand apart from Arcane Classes.
#8 mushrooman May 19, 2009 21:59:00	My opinion (at this point) is that adding an additional 2 power sources is not something I would agree to doing but rather include any additional classes into the remaining power sources. If Wizards does decide to continue to add more power sources I may find my self enthusiastic about the additional rules, but I believe that scenario unlikely.
#9 mkill May 19, 2009 22:21:21	I want a Necromancer and a Black Knight, whether that's Shadow power source or something else doesn't matter. Power sources are mostly fluff that can be exchanged anyway.
#10 GhostStepper May 19, 2009 22:26:40	...but do we really need any new power sources? The only power sources we ever needed were "magic" and "mundane but badass". All of this Arcane vs Divine vs Primal vs Etc, is totally arbitrary fluff.
#11 xi_mao May 19, 2009 22:27:23	Mkill...I don't feel that Power Sources are "simply fluff". Obviously, you do, and you're not wrong...I just feel that the Power Sources actually effect the class in many subtle ways...such as the Paladin being a Defender with Healing Powers because Divine classes tend to get some form of Healing or Pseudo Healing powers...
#12 Haldrik May 19, 2009 22:31:16	[INDENT]Specialist Power Sources? Divine = Astral Sea (Spirit-Radiance, Ideals) Elemental = Elemental Chaos (Matter, Elements) Martial = Natural World (Body, Tools) Psionic = Dream (Soul-Mind, Force) Primal = Feywild (Lifeforms, Nature Spirits) Shadow = Shadowfell (Death, Ghostliness) Generalist Power Source? Arcane = all planes? (all themes?)[/INDENT] These sources could streamline concepts, like above. Unfortunately, confusions are already in play. For example, Primal already specializes in all of the elements, making Elemental seem redundant. Oppositely, necromancy fits so well in both Divine (evil Cleric tradition) and Arcane, and is viable as a stand-alone concept, that it seems best to split necromancy off into its own power source, Shadow.
#13 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 22:35:18	I want more power sources, and more classes, and more races. Because I'm an options maniac.
#14 Mcnancy May 19, 2009 22:36:18	Mike Mearls did say this on day of the Monk playtest release: Elemental and shadow aren't going anywhere. When we thought about ki, we also thought a lot about other power sources. We did some concept work on story and mechanics as a proof of concept. (In general, that's a key component of our design approach. We're less into doing things now because they seem like good ideas. We'll do them because we can prove that they are good ideas.) I wish they would prove to us that they are good ideas. To an extent, the Shadow power source already exists; the Darklord ED, Shadow Captain PP and the Umbriri PP are examples of powers that use the Shadow keyword, they also give insight into the nature of the Shadow power source. Another interesting note, from the PH2 Sorcerer: Wild Magic You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos. Whether tapping into the power of primordial beings or drawing strength directly from that plane, you unleash magic in wild surges. Yeesh, thats just ridiculous. Primal = Feywild Not so much.
#15 Haldrik May 19, 2009 22:51:35	Primal = Feywild Not so much Primal is officially identified with the plane of Nature (Natural World). Which is fine by me. Except, if Feywild isnt 'Primal', what else would it be?? Its a realm of untouched wild nature, nature spirits, and seasonal spirits. Ie, this plane expresses the same themes as the Primal power source does.
#16 Mcnancy May 19, 2009 23:05:54	Primal is officially identified with the plane of Nature (Natural World). Which is fine by me. Except, if Feywild isnt 'Primal', what else would it be?? Its a realm of untouched wild nature, nature spirits, and seasonal spirits. Ie, this plane expresses the same themes as the Primal power source does. It's hard to explain, but the Mortal World is alive with Primal energy and the Feywild is alive with Arcane energy, it's all in the MotP and PH2. This brings up an interesting concept; If the Shadowfell get's it's own power source, then why wouldn't the Feywild, if they're both Parallel planes of the Mortal World?
#17 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 23:07:57	The Feywild has a Powersource, in a way: Arcane. Wizards, some warlocks, possibly bards and swordmages pull from the feywild, I would think. Sorcerers are the odd men out, really.
#18 GhostStepper May 19, 2009 23:10:16	This brings up an interesting concept; If the Shadowfell get's it's own power source, then why wouldn't the Feywild, if they're both Parallel planes of the Mortal World? They've said that the power sources aren't meant to map onto all the planes. Some planes are associated with some powers but a parallelism of associating every plane with a specific power source has never been the intent of the designers.
#19 salla May 19, 2009 23:16:57	We don't 'need' power sources at all. They're just fluff and of negligible consequence. They are somewhat interesting, though.
#20 Mcnancy May 19, 2009 23:17:05	They've said that the power sources aren't meant to map onto all the planes. Some planes are associated with some powers but a parallelism of associating every plane with a specific power source has never been the intent of the designers. I just think it's interesting that the Shadowfell is only a mirroring of the Mortal World in the same way that the Feywild is and yet it gets it's very own kind of power.
#21 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 23:33:47	I just think it's interesting that the Shadowfell is only a mirroring of the Mortal World in the same way that the Feywild is and yet it gets it's very own kind of power. That's because Shadow is cooler that fluffy fairy magic. ;)
#22 jacksmithiv May 19, 2009 23:42:58	I'm so glad someone made this questions. @Thread Topic: No, we don't need either.
#23 Kalnaur May 19, 2009 23:47:23	I'm so glad someone made this questions. @Thread Topic: No, we don't need either. But Jack! I thought you cared! :D P.S. we totally need new power sources. New Stuff! Woooooooo!
#24 Haldrik May 19, 2009 23:52:10	McNancy: It's hard to explain, but the Mortal World is alive with Primal energy and the Feywild is alive with Arcane energy. Natural World is alive with Primal energy, and Feywild is alive with Arcane energy. LOL! And thats why Arcane gets necromancy?? Your not wrong. Its just, at the moment, right doesnt make a lot of sense. If the Shadowfell get's it's own power source, then why wouldn't the Feywild, if they're both Parallel planes of the Mortal World? I could live with each plane having a power source that shares its themes. Kalnaur: The Feywild has a Powersource, in a way: Arcane. Wizards, some warlocks, possibly bards and swordmages pull from the feywild, I would think. Sorcerers are the odd men out, really. Officially (per the Arcana skill), the Arcane power source relates to Feywild, and Shadowfell, and Elemental Chaos. If Shadow steals Shadowfell, and Elemental steals Elemental Chaos, that leaves Feywild with Arcane. I would be cool with that, except Arcane is already the everthing power source that can do everything, which flavorwise has little to do with the 'pristine nature' of Feywild.
#25 tomewyrm May 19, 2009 23:55:31	A couple of you have more or less hit the nail on the head as far as new power sources go, I feel. Do we need new power sources, such as Shadow and Elemental? No, not at all. But really when you think about it, do we even need the original power sources? For that matter, do we need character roles? No, they too are more or less (note: there are always exceptions!) redundant to the functioning of the game. They do, however, provide a neat and usually concise categorizing system that makes referencing what everything does conceptually as well as (to a more limited, but no less present) degree mechanically. Could power sources like Shadow and Elemental just be wrapped up in Arcane, Primal, or Divine and it just be called a day? Yeah, sure, there's really no overt problem with that solution. But, I think the two are conceptually different enough from our present sources that they can merit their own source, if for nothing else than for the fluff that could be associated with them. Shadow being tied to the powers of death, decay, and illusion makes it different enough to be separate from Arcane and Divine, while if Elemental is somehow tied to the Primordials it becomes a different animal than Arcane or Primal. Another thing to keep in mind is while Arcane has become something of a catch-all for misfit classes (see Sorcerer and Warlock), it shouldn't get to the point that it would engulf anything that is similar to Arcane.
#26 undrave May 20, 2009 0:28:56	Is there ANY class that wouldn't fit in Arcane? I just don't want to see Arcane engulf more concepts than it needs to ><
#27 jacksmithiv May 20, 2009 2:29:44	But Jack! I thought you cared! :D P.S. we totally need new power sources. New Stuff! Woooooooo! Haha, I'm too young to be so grumpy. :D I'm all for new power sources, I just want to see them play it smart, which I believe they will. Elemental is gone... over and over again it's been clear that Elemental = Arcane. Dragons have the harnessed power of the Elemental Chaos. Sorcerers are quite the same. Both of these things are classified as Arcane. They're usually synonymous. If they wanted to make the distinction, they've missed it. And let's face it, a Shadow power source would end up with maybe one or two unique endeavors, but would mostly end up being contrived. It's better off as a themed set of powers, paragon paths, or even a destiny or two. It doesn't need another whole power source, but people are still trying to hold onto the idea that it's coming because it's the only hinted-at thing there is left. It's speculative, and grasping-for-straws. It's one of the only keywords Wizards has talked about but hasn't struck down yet. Let's get over it. EDIT: Also, take a look at what they've got. Arcane. Divine. Martial. Primal. Think of the sheer scope of those things. They're the natural powers of the D&D universe, the very lifeblood of the cosmology. We really think that "Shadow" is gonna hold up? Let's not lower the standards.
#28 Axiomatic_Badger May 20, 2009 2:56:13	We don't need them. But then again, we don't need Primal or Psionic either. As long as a source can be made thematically and mechanically distinct, then there's room for it. Elemental is the power of summoning and binding elementals, either as servants or into items. Elemental powers could have unset damage types, with the type instead being defined by thier other powers or class features. Shadow magic is the magic of entropy and destruction, with the classes breaking down matter/light/life to power thier abilities. We could see a lot of ongoing damage, auras, and abilities that improve the more enemies there are.
#29 celticmutt May 20, 2009 3:11:53	I'm all for new power sources, I just want to see them play it smart, which I believe they will. Elemental is gone... over and over again it's been clear that Elemental = Arcane. Dragons have the harnessed power of the Elemental Chaos. Sorcerers are quite the same. Both of these things are classified as Arcane. They're usually synonymous. If they wanted to make the distinction, they've missed it. Except that they're not. Elemental damage is not the same as the Elemental source. And Sorcerers are like Warlocks, they get their powers from places not normally associated with Arcane, which confuses some and annoys others. But that does not invalidate the Elemental source, especially when we don't even know what will fall under Elemental. But the Binder, True Namer, and Sha'ir ideas floating around are probably the closest, and are more than different enough to be distinct from Arcane. And let's face it, a Shadow power source would end up with maybe one or two unique endeavors, but would mostly end up being contrived. It's better off as a themed set of powers, paragon paths, or even a destiny or two. It doesn't need another whole power source, but people are still trying to hold onto the idea that it's coming because it's the only hinted-at thing there is left. It's speculative, and grasping-for-straws. It's one of the only keywords Wizards has talked about but hasn't struck down yet. Let's get over it. EDIT: Also, take a look at what they've got. Arcane. Divine. Martial. Primal. Think of the sheer scope of those things. They're the natural powers of the D&D universe, the very lifeblood of the cosmology. We really think that "Shadow" is gonna hold up? Let's not lower the standards. Considering Negative energy has been a major force in DnD for decades, yeah I think Shadow will hold up. It's definitely not "lowering standards." I think you're the one that needs to get over it. Shadow and Elemental will be coming, whether you like it or not.
#30 Grazel May 20, 2009 7:01:22	While we don't need more I think at least Elemental and Shadow can hold up. There are mechanical uses to power sources so they aren't pure fluff. Their mechanical aspects though represent their fluff. Arcane, martial, and divine already are prerequisites for Paragon Paths, Epic Destinies, and Feats. The DMG has fantastic terrain that includes Font of Power which gives +5 per tier to damage of a power with the matching keyword. This would include the power source since the power source for a power is almost always the first keyword for a power after it's usage type (at-will, encounter, daily). These mechanics allow one to play off the fluff of a power source and make them more reflective of the way things work and tie together. A graveyard would be a good example of a spot to put a shadow font of power, and a volcano or floating earthmote for an elemental font of power. Now if they were folded into Arcane (or Divine) it doesn't make as much thematic sense to make the aforementioned fonts as arcane ones (though Divine might work for the graveyard but then all divine powers not just necrotic ones get the bonus). Arcane fonts of power would likely be ley line nexuses, magical laboratories, wizard's towers and colleges, a bard's stage. Divine fonts would be areas dedicated to a particular diety. While Power Source is the least utilized mechanic of the game system in most regards it still has a mechanical use in the world when you bring it to life, it's just not one that's all that important to character creation beyond a few feat and PP/ED choices for the most part. We just have to remember that damage type =/= power source. Not all divine powers do radiant damage, and there is no 'primal' damage type. Even some martial powers do elemental damage. There is no class or power source that doesn't have at least some bleed into others when you consider the effect of the powers/classes. I've been saying this a lot lately but here's my take on the power sources: * Martial - use of tools, tactics, strategies, weapons, and armor * Divine - working with the will or at least power of the gods (seen by classes having Channel Divinity) * Primal - calling on the ancient spirits of the world (and as presented in a recent Dragon article they match the power of the Gods and Primordials, at least on the Natural World aka Prime Material Plane) * Psionic - harnessing the internal energies to affect the world outside (either training like the monk, or a 'gift' like seers, or 'focus' like older editions psionics) * Arcane - altering the world (and other planes) through the energy that permeates everything in a variety of ways. Each arcane classes has found a different method to do this but all pull from the same energy at a basic level even if the 'source' of that energy appears different. They're not working with the core of the elemental power source, but a byproduct of the mix between Elemental, Primal, and Divine that's strongest in the Feywild as it's a 'stronger reflection' of the life and vitality of the Natural World. * Shadow - drawing on darkness, death, the 'beyond' where souls go, and the unkown. Could be melding with shadows, necromancy, life-energy manipulation, making things that aren't quite real out of shadowstuff (as opposed to mystic illusions that trick the eye, psionic illusions that trick the mind, or full objects created through arcane or elemental manipulation) * Elemental - harnessing the building blocks of reality to alter the world and calling upon the living representations of those blocks (elementals, archons, demons, etc.) because they embody those things. Not likely to see blasters so much as zone controllers, summoning leaders, melee strikers, and no/light armor defenders who create their own defenses.
#31 thestupacabra May 20, 2009 8:59:07	Haha, I'm too young to be so grumpy. :D I'm all for new power sources, I just want to see them play it smart, which I believe they will. Elemental is gone... over and over again it's been clear that Elemental = Arcane. Dragons have the harnessed power of the Elemental Chaos. Sorcerers are quite the same. Both of these things are classified as Arcane. They're usually synonymous. If they wanted to make the distinction, they've missed it. And let's face it, a Shadow power source would end up with maybe one or two unique endeavors, but would mostly end up being contrived. It's better off as a themed set of powers, paragon paths, or even a destiny or two. It doesn't need another whole power source, but people are still trying to hold onto the idea that it's coming because it's the only hinted-at thing there is left. It's speculative, and grasping-for-straws. It's one of the only keywords Wizards has talked about but hasn't struck down yet. Let's get over it. EDIT: Also, take a look at what they've got. Arcane. Divine. Martial. Primal. Think of the sheer scope of those things. They're the natural powers of the D&D universe, the very lifeblood of the cosmology. We really think that "Shadow" is gonna hold up? Let's not lower the standards. And can you actually prove any of this? Explain to me how it's officially been made clear that Elemental=Arcane, because I have yet to see any proof of that. The truth of the matter is that no one exactly knows what the elemental power source is going to entail. As far as Shadow goes, well, that's just your denial of the obvious there buddy. Hate to break it to you, but it already exists. So like Mearls said... It isn't going anywhere. Besides, the idea of a "shadow magic" has been a rich tradition of not only D&D, but of fantasy as a whole. You know, for someone who says every one needs to get over the speculation and straw-grasping, you seem to do alot of both yourself. Shadow and Elemental are coming. Get over it.
#32 Mcnancy May 20, 2009 10:36:16	While we don't need more I think at least Elemental and Shadow can hold up. I think your right, we could make em work if they're done smart. But after that, I don't really think any new power sources would be as good. I would really like an article or a blog about the Elemental PS, just so that we could see what concepts they're working with.
#33 cadfan May 20, 2009 11:09:35	I agree with you Cadfan, however, until someone DOES come along and say "Well, This Class is Elemental, and here's why it doesn't fit into Arcane, Divine, or any other Power source!" it is actually quite silly to say that something should have a place. As it stands, Elemental doesn't need to exist because there are no good ideas on what Elemental classes could be and how they can stand apart from Arcane Classes. No, see, that's my point. There's no good ideas on this forum for what elemental classes could be and how they could stand apart from arcane classes. At best you can say "I don't personally know of any reason it needs to exist," but you can't generalize from there to "and neither does anyone else, including people at WotC, who, by right of having written up the design documents for the Elemental power source and not having shown them to me, know more about this subject than I do." People who announce to the world that everything worthwhile has already been invented have a very bad track record.
#34 casual-observer May 20, 2009 11:37:08	Apart from psionics, no more power sources are needed. I would like to see a necromancer build for wizards, but it doesen't need to be tied to a "shadow" power source. I would like to see them stick with arcane, divine, martial, primal and psionic power sources, for the sake of simplicity. Just my opinion- I know many others feel very differently about it.
#35 Haldrik May 20, 2009 13:09:08	McNancy: I would really like an article or a blog about the Elemental PS, just so that we could see what concepts they're working with. Ditto.
#36 Grazel May 20, 2009 14:07:10	We need shadow and elemental. Even if the mechanics overlap some with other sources and damage types may share with arcane especially (which btw arcane shares damage types with all power sources even martial if you consider every power by every arcane class) they have a strong enough thematic component to set them apart from other power sources and a place in the 4e cosmology.
#37 Haldrik May 20, 2009 14:15:48	Grazel: btw arcane shares damage types with all power sources even martial if you consider every power by every arcane class Yeah, Arcane does everything that other power sources do. Thats why it may be best to simply redefine Arcane as the 'generalist' power source.
#38 Grazel May 20, 2009 14:38:01	Yeah, Arcane does everything that other power sources do. Thats why it may be best to simply redefine Arcane as the 'generalist' power source. I don't see them so much as generalists as the ones able to work with the blended form of the other power sources. I see arcane energy (magic, weave, ley lines, whatever you want to call it) as the byproduct of the mixing of the other power sources that make up reality (especially primal, divine, and elemental). They can create things that no other power souce can as well as dip into those other power sources to a degree (the sorcerer more fully than the wizard for that). No other power source can create complex, mutli-source objects like arcane can.
#39 Haldrik May 20, 2009 16:26:52	Grazel: I see arcane energy as the byproduct of the mixing of the other power sources that make up reality (especially primal, divine, and elemental). So, Arcane is the power source that unites all the other power sources, sorta like how 'residuum' works for magic items. I can live with that.
#40 Haldrik May 20, 2009 17:12:45	It occurs to me, if power sources tend to correspond to planes, the Psi power source (somewhat surprisingly) corresponds well with Feywild themes, for a number of reasons. Two aspects of Psionic scream Fey flavor: enchantment and illusion. The Psionic enchanter alters minds to manipulate emotions and desires. This matches the 'charmer' archetype from folklore about elves and other fey beings, including the way they seduce, enthrall, and kidnap humans. (Notice the Warlocks Fey pact emphasizes enchantment and psychic damage.) The Psionic illusionist alters minds to manipulate perceptions and sensations. Moreover, powerful illusions evoke Force effects that actually distort time and space, for quasi-real impact and verisimilitude. Folklore often refers to this kind of Fey magic as 'illusion', because it is a manifestation of ephemeral thoughts, but insists on its reallife effects, even tho usually temporary. Making trees and caves seem like mansions, or oppositely, disguising gold as natural tree leaves, are classic Fey illusions. Of course, the Psionic power source include themes that have nothing to do with Fey flavor, but even these correspond to Feywild, surprisingly well. For example, the Monk. The Monk is a Psionic Striker that dabbles East Asian flavor. This class focuses on the bodily aura (ch'i), corresponding to the ki, soul, consciousness, lifeforce, and so on in various cultures. In other words, thru the Monk, the Psionic power source masters the Lifeforce themes. Therefore, a Psionic Feywild would come to represent the realm of Lifeforce energy, perhaps with glowing auras around its denizens. Thematically, Feywild the plane of luminous Lifeforce functions as the opposite of its antithesis Shadowfell the plane of shadowy Deathforce. Moreover, the iconic Feywild race is the Eladrin. Their superlative Intelligence (and perhapse even their intricate accurate Dexterity) would allow them to optimize as Illusionists. (I see Int-Dex working well for a Force-effect quasi-real Illusionist build, and Int-Cha working well for a Phantasmal-effect only-in-the-mind Illusionist build.) Not only that, the Eladrin Dex along with their dash of gishy skirmisher flavor, makes them decent Psionic Monks, anyway. All in all, the themes of the Psionic power source can match the themes of Feywild, including Fey mental magic as well as Lifeforce aura magic. If so, the power sources would tend to correspond the planar themes as follows. Power Sources Divine = Astral Sea (Spirit, Radiance, Ideals, Immortality) Elemental = Elemental Chaos (Matter, Elements, Animation, Transmutation) Primal = Natural World (Lifeforms, Nature Spirits, Weather) Psionic = Feywild (Lifeforce-Soul, Mind, Enchantment, Illusion, Force) Shadow = Shadowfell (Death, Darkness, Ghostliness, Undead, Corruption) Martial = No Plane (Body, Tools) Arcane = All Planes (Uniting All Power Sources, Generalist)
#41 Mcnancy May 20, 2009 17:34:26	Psionic = Feywild Nice try.
#42 daidojitaidoru May 20, 2009 18:04:55	There's a lot of speculation as to where the awesome comes from, but really power sources seem far more about how you acquire the awesome. There's a lot of assigning Divine to the Astral Sea because of the Radiance keyword, but the DMG says straight out that Clerics of more questionable deities use Necrotic, and the MM backs that up. But if we focus on how the power is acquired in addition to where it comes from we get this: Martial: Self acquired Physical awesome Psionic: Self acquired Mental awesome Arcane: Self acquired Otherplanar awesome Divine: Ritual installed Otherplanar awesome Primal: Primal granted Otherplanar Awesome Arcane seems so broad because it's all the people who got their power without directly owing someone. Via bloodline, loophole, study, or chance they acquire their power themselves. (No Warlocks don't have to give their patrons anything. In fact the base Infernal and Star pacts are assumed to be stolen knowledge.) Divine characters all seem to be invested with power via ritual, and Primal characters all call upon primal spirits for their techniques (though with so many primal spirits one of them is bound to answer).
#43 jacksmithiv May 20, 2009 19:30:38	And can you actually prove any of this? Explain to me how it's officially been made clear that Elemental=Arcane, because I have yet to see any proof of that. The truth of the matter is that no one exactly knows what the elemental power source is going to entail. Read the Draconomicon. They use the terms interchangeably. I think you're the one that needs to get over it. Shadow and Elemental will be coming, whether you like it or not. You know, for someone who says every one needs to get over the speculation and straw-grasping, you seem to do alot of both yourself. Shadow and Elemental are coming. Get over it. Oh, I see what you did there! You said what I said, only right back at me. You guys seem very certain in your guessing. I kick myself for using common sense in the Flaming and Speculation Future Releases forums. God you people are ****ing odd.
#44 toriel May 20, 2009 20:12:00	Personally, I think that there is enough design space left to explore that it justifies the Elemental & Shadow sources. I am very much looking forward to seeing where the designers will go with them. Of course, they could take the easy way out and put them into Arcane but then I don't want Arcane to become the catch all source where anything that can't find a home gets thrown just because it could be plausible.
#45 thestupacabra May 20, 2009 21:09:18	Oh, I see what you did there! You said what I said, only right back at me. You guys seem very certain in your guessing. I kick myself for using common sense in the Flaming and Speculation Future Releases forums. God you people are ****ing odd. Eh, don't take it too personally. Some one filled both coffee pots at work today with decaf, so I'm just extra irritable... Seriously though, I've not read the draconomicon yet, but I'll have to look it over to see what your talking about. I really think that people are jumping to waaaaay to much of a conclusion with over Elemental without actually knowing what Elemental is. It could, quite literally, be almost anything. I think quite a bit of the stink over this is just the name "Elemental", because of it's familiarity with everyone. Me thinks WoTC needs to strongly consider renaming the power source... But yeah, can't make wild comparisons between Elemental and Arcane because we don't know what Elemental is yet. That's like saying an ostrich is gonna be the same as a platypus because they both come from an egg.
#46 jacksmithiv May 20, 2009 22:26:23	Eh, don't take it too personally. Some one filled both coffee pots at work today with decaf, so I'm just extra irritable... Haha, it's fine, my bad too. Seriously though, I've not read the draconomicon yet, but I'll have to look it over to see what your talking about. I really think that people are jumping to waaaaay to much of a conclusion with over Elemental without actually knowing what Elemental is. It could, quite literally, be almost anything. Yeah, you should check that out. They make a very disctinct connection between the "Elemental" and "Arcane" heritage of dragons, very often implying that they are synonymous. But yeah, can't make wild comparisons between Elemental and Arcane because we don't know what Elemental is yet. That's like saying an ostrich is gonna be the same as a platypus because they both come from an egg. That's kind of ridiculous. You can't say at least a little about what Elemental would be? It would have to be based on harnessing the power of the Elemental Chaos, that's just common sense. You would then have to define what kind of energy that is. They have at various points in the lore made it pretty clear that the energy found in the Elemental Chaos is largely arcane energy. If they came up with something else, it'd be pretty contrived to call it "Elemental".
#47 celticmutt May 20, 2009 23:18:05	Read the Draconomicon. They use the terms interchangeably. Oh, I see what you did there! You said what I said, only right back at me. You guys seem very certain in your guessing. I kick myself for using common sense in the Flaming and Speculation Future Releases forums. God you people are ****ing odd. Except we're not guessing. We're using facts. And the fact is, unless WotC says otherwise, Shadow and Elemental source classes will be coming, because WotC has them in development.
#48 Axiomatic_Badger May 21, 2009 8:15:17	That's kind of ridiculous. You can't say at least a little about what Elemental would be? It would have to be based on harnessing the power of the Elemental Chaos, that's just common sense. Except it isn't. It could just as easily be about manipulating elementals, or ripping targets into thier elemental parts. Hell, it could be about manipulating the weather. In the Draconomicon, does it refer to elemental magic, or elemental energy? Because elemental energy can be manipulated by any of the power sources. Yes, even martial.
#49 thestupacabra May 21, 2009 8:44:26	If they came up with something else, it'd be pretty contrived to call it "Elemental". That's exactly my point. WoTC strongly needs to reconsider actually renaming "Elemental" to something else that would better reflect whatever they intend for the source to be, since Elemental implies a tie in with actual elemental energy, which Arcane, and to varying degrees, most other Power sources, already does so. I will readily admit that Arcane does delve heavily into different affect and such that seem to draw from and elemental source. However, I'm also willing to bet that the design team at WoTC has realizes this, and has something very much different in store for the "Elemental" source. They've planned to do something with Elemental since the beginning, and according to Mearls, they currently have no intention of removing the source at all. Based off of that, it's not to much of a stretch to assume that Elemental will be very much different, fluff-wise, from Arcane. What this all boils down to is lack of fore-thought with naming the power sources on WoTC's part. They need to just bite the bullet and rename Elemental to something a bit more appropriate.
#50 Grazel May 21, 2009 14:31:40	Except the fluff may make Elemental the best name for the power source. I don't see the problem with Arcane doing elemental damage types since honestly how else would you describe something that creates a pillar of flame other than 'fire' damage. The key is arcane isn't drawing upon the elemental source itself, it's just manipulating arcane energy to create the elements. Also note that not all elements are represented in current powers, only the ones that generally do direct damage due to that elementals nature: cold, lighting, thunder, acid, poison, and fire. Elemental as a power source is like to deal with all elements including air, water, earth, fire, lightning, thunder, acid, fire, poison. Remember that in 4e elements are more than the Chinese 5 or Greek 4. They're the basic damage types as well as the raw 'building blocks' of reality. Force, psychic, radiant, and necrotic seem to be the bulk of power damage types that aren't considered elemental so maybe it's Elemental that steps on everyone's toes not Arcane.
#51 xi_mao May 21, 2009 15:22:32	Except we're not guessing. We're using facts. And the fact is, unless WotC says otherwise, Shadow and Elemental source classes will be coming, because WotC has them in development. That's kind of Poor logic. I mean, WotC was developing Ki then they canned it. Elemental and Shadow could prove to be as difficult to work with as Ki, and might receive similar treatment. Thus the correct phrase should be "Unless WotC says otherwise, there is a strong possibility that Shadow and Elemental source classes will be coming, because WotC has them in development."
#52 trulyevilkitty May 21, 2009 16:01:29	First, this is a very interesting conversation. Excellent topic. Excellent discussion. So I get that we have to accept that Shadow and Elements are coming but we also have to accept that they might get scrapped, just like Ki, which I'm happy about. Psionic rocks, and Ki deserved to get eaten by it. But this discussion made me ask a question of myself. If Shadow and Elemental are coming, which would I prefer to come first, and why? For me, the answer is Shadow. I get Shadow. I get what it does, and i get what new classes will have it. As a key word it already exists. Shadow classes are going to have mostly necrotic, fear and cold, maybe illusion. We'll see necromancers and shadow mages. Maybe we'll see the Necropolitan. It will be tied to the Shadowfell. It will be awesome. I want Shadow to come first (after Psionics, of course). But I don't get Elemental. I know what elements are, but I see them mostly in Arcane. If the Sorcerer hadn't come out as arcane, I might not be scratching my head about this power source. So, yes, I don't get the need for Elemental. But that's because I have no idea what it is, that isn't already Arcane (plus divine, primal and psionic as appropriate). There's talk about its connection to summoning and artifice, but both of those are already Arcane, too. So, I hope they wait on that one. Or at least provide some hints to what it is. I suspect, personally, that it will go the way of Ki someday.
#53 jacksmithiv May 22, 2009 18:43:31	\ But I don't get Elemental. I know what elements are, but I see them mostly in Arcane. If the Sorcerer hadn't come out as arcane, I might not be scratching my head about this power source. So, yes, I don't get the need for Elemental. But that's because I have no idea what it is, that isn't already Arcane (plus divine, primal and psionic as appropriate). This. Except it isn't. It could just as easily be about manipulating elementals, or ripping targets into thier elemental parts. Hell, it could be about manipulating the weather. In the Draconomicon, does it refer to elemental magic, or elemental energy? Because elemental energy can be manipulated by any of the power sources. Yes, even martial. Yes, but we're talking about an entire power source. You're talking about little nuanced things. You actually believe that elemental energy, as a source of power in the D&D universe, has enough individuality away from the arcane to bring about an array of unique classes that are just an well-developed as the current selection? That's kind of Poor logic. I mean, WotC was developing Ki then they canned it. Elemental and Shadow could prove to be as difficult to work with as Ki, and might receive similar treatment. Thus the correct phrase should be "Unless WotC says otherwise, there is a strong possibility that Shadow and Elemental source classes will be coming, because WotC has them in development." Absolutely this. You can't argue that the earth must be flat just because can't prove it's round on the basis of "that's the best guess we have". Wizards doesn't always stick it through. Ki is the perfect example of this. Just because they haven't said "We're scrapping elemental" doesn't mean that they don't intend to, and it's ludicrous to think that this logic inherently leads to it's inevitability.
#54 Grazel May 22, 2009 19:18:15	Just because they haven't said "We're scrapping elemental" doesn't mean that they don't intend to, and it's ludicrous to think that this logic inherently leads to it's inevitability. The point many of us are using is that Mike Mearls said that shadow and elemental are both holding up to proof of concept while Ki didn't. He said that they have strong story elements and identity. They didn't sound like they were ready for release yet (hence why not in PH3) but that they weren't dropped like ki was. True that MAY change but as of this point it's less likely to happen. They stated that unlike at first they're making decisions prove they work rather than just hoping, which is why they listed ki at first. They hoped they could make it work but waited until it was time to actually crank out it's classes before testing the power source's viability. It sounds like that made them look at shadow and elemental (the other 2 still to be done) and test to make sure they'd hold up as a power source and so far they are holding up. Also there's the fact that damage type is not equal to power source. Divine classes don't deal strictly radiant damage, martial classes aren't all weapon damage, and primal classes don't even have a damage type to their own. I've honeslty seen more issues with defining shadow reasonably than elemental. Elemental can at least be seperated from the Elemental Chaos plane where most people's suggestions for shadow just make it a mirror of arcane with 'extra darkness' and tie it so close to the Shadowfell it might as well be restricted to only shadowfell native races. I see Elemental and Arcane as varying in some subtle but distinct ways: Elemental source deals with reality at a fundamental, raw, brute-force kind of way. This leads to zone control, elemental transformation, demon/elemental summoning and binding, and maybe a blaster that does just elemental damage types. Arcane deals with reality at a higher level. This means bolts of force (magic missile, etc.), summoning of complex life, creation of complex items, altering the 'rules of reality', be they physics of whatever, for a period of time. Arcane takes the combined aspects of reality: elemental, shadow, divine, primal, martial; and mixes them together to create something complex. The other power sources tend to deal with their aspect at a baser level and only mix with other power sources on a limited scale. This makes arcane more of a 'generalist' source, while the others are more focused and specialized. It gives arcane flexibility but not mastery while the other sources get mastery at the cost of flexibility.
#55 lucifernietzsche May 23, 2009 5:09:34	I dunno why Mearls said what he said...but if Ki couldn't cut it...Elemental sure won't. Besides...Ki was a shoo-in also, and look what happened. Doesn't matter if they said elementa's still around, that could easily change in no time. Shadow might make it if they stretch...but I don't care about shadow. What is the elemental power source? Something to do with the elemental chaos. So what is the elemental chaos? A roiling soup of the elements ever-changing and practically formless...prison of the primordials. I do not count the abyss, but who knows, they might use it...but I would prefer it stay separate. So... - Elemental classes getting powers from primordials? Divine already does that with gods...so that's a completely supid idea. - Summoning? Good for one class only...and awfully flimsy if any other summoners EVER get the chance to summon elemental creatures. - Blasting? Done by arcane...in spades. There's no possible way of any sort to make a blaster class from the nature of the EC that isn't effectively a bleached copy of the sorcerer. Hubris or not, that's the way it is. - Transmutation? Maybe...it hasn't quite been done to death by arcane yet. Either way, it's still only good for one class. So, with a summoner (of whatever role), and a transmuter (of whatever role), that gives elemental two classes. It might genuinely be possible to squeeze another class of a different role out of each...but that doesn't sound at all appealing to me. - Weather control? Done to death. Nearly every "caster" class has extensive weather controlling powers...and primal classes have them in spades. To base a class on weather control alone would be stupid...and to incorporate weather control into a transmuter class only makes it MORE arcane. Now...I know there are other ideas, but those are the biggest ones I could remember. I'm still a firm believer that the problem isn't with other power sources...it's that arcane wasn't well-defined enough, nor limited hard enough. I'd have taken the notion of "schools" and broken a few similar ones off to become arcane...and fold each of the others into whatever power sources suited them best. Then arcane would have a DISTINCT flavor, instead of being the "tastes like chicken" power source that it is. It would've also made it much MUCH easier to have come up with other reasonable and entertaining complete power sources. Perhaps Ki might've even survived...but probably not. Anyway, arcane classes are no more powerful or versatile than any other class, but the power source is still the, "I can do it" power source. Traditionalists may like that, but I sure as hell don't.
#56 xi_mao May 23, 2009 17:24:17	I've done a lot of thinking about How Wotc could pull of Elemental as a power source, and I've only come up with one idea that's not based on Avatar: The Last Airbender or Exalted. That is to basically have elemental classes be creatures embodying the powers of the Elemental Chaos, and becoming Avatars of the energies of that plane. The best mental image I can offer up is that of...well...do you remember the Dwarf Psion from 3.5's XPH? The one using Weapon Graft? Imagine that it's a spike made of Rock instead. That's the best I can offer at the moment. So, slight polymorphic ability, along with short ranged abilities that can hinder foes or help allies.
#57 axleleft May 24, 2009 1:21:45	So basically we're all playing pin the tail on the Des&Dev thought process? Arcane - manipulation of the gestalt nature of reality (Astral, Elemental, Material) Wizards, Swordmages, and Bards get the ability through training (and each use it for a distinct purpose) Warlocks get the ability by making a deal with someone who can already to it at a scale beyond mortals Sorcerers are born with the ability Martial - achieving feats within the range of fantasy-level physical abilities and prowess Fighters focus on weapons and armor training Rangers focus on mobility and either archery, dual wielding, or using a pet Rogues focus on stealth, mobility, and "trick" fighting Divine - channeling the power of deities from the Astral Sea Clerics request the power as part of the religious hierarchy Paladins request the power for the defense of the faith Avengers request the power to deal with specific enemies of the faith Invokers are bequeathed the power in order to act as wild cards outside the religious hierarchy Primal - accessing the power of the natural world Druids use the physical power of nature; the living aspects of plants and animals in an external manner Wardens use the physical power of nature; the living aspects of plants and animals in an augmentative manner Shamans use the spiritual power of nature; the metaphysical/immortal aspects of the spirit realm in an external manner Barbarians use the spiritual power of nature; the metaphysical/immortal aspects of the spirit realm in an augmentative manner Elemental - channeling the power of the Primordials and the Elemental Chaos Possibilities for mechanics include how the class accesses the power and how they can use it. Personal augmentation (I imagine something similar to a mix of Warden and Sorcerer), external manipulation, summoning (I could see it with a tendency for damaging environmental effects), elemental taint, elemental imbuing, primordial cultist, etc. Various elemental damage types used. Shadow - tapping into the power of the Shadowfell Possibilities for mechanics include how the class accesses the power and how they can use it. Personal augmentation (teleports, invisibility, etc), external manipulation (with a focus on teleports/shifts, weaken and slow effects), summoning (with more of a bend towards control effects). Cold and necrotic damage.
#58 doctorhook May 24, 2009 2:21:13	McNancy, weren't you the one trying to convince us a few months ago that Invokers were unnecessary because we had Clerics? Did we ever convince you how ridiculous that position was? It seems that now you've moved on to saying that Shadow and Elemental will be unnecessary because we have Arcane, and I find this new position of yours nearly as ridiculous as your last one. We don't know anything about the Elemental power source at this point, so it's much too soon to call it redundant. As for Shadow, there's so many concepts that could exist within that theme that the power source practically writes itself; Shadow alone is ripe for being separated from Arcane if for no other reason than the fact that it would double the size of the Arcane power source with all of the core concepts of Shadow -- illusions, necromancy, and connection to the powers of the Shadowfell. One has to wonder why you're taking aim at these two power sources; why not Psionic or Divine, which both could fit as well as Shadow or Elemental into Arcane. Have you considered starting a new account with the screen name "Arbitrary"?
#59 jailbreaker May 24, 2009 7:42:41	WotC must really like to watch us forum members bicker back and forth about Elemental, or they'd have released something about it by now. There are two issues in this discussion. One is the Elemental/Shadow = Arcane belief. Two is the belief that Elemental/Shadow will get scrapped. I disagree with both, but I feel no desire to tell you all why.
#60 Axiomatic_Badger May 24, 2009 8:08:56	we're talking about an entire power source. You're talking about little nuanced things. You actually believe that elemental energy, as a source of power in the D&D universe, has enough individuality away from the arcane to bring about an array of unique classes that are just an well-developed as the current selection? No. For the same reason I don't think "Radiant" would make a good power source. The point I was trying to make is that the elemental source won't necessarily be about drawing upon elemental energy, as the term "elemental" is vague enough to encapsulate many different concepts.
#61 Mcnancy May 25, 2009 19:53:36	McNancy, weren't you the one trying to convince us a few months ago that Invokers were unnecessary because we had Clerics? Did we ever convince you how ridiculous that position was? No, I did; I chalked it up to just bad writing, with reinterpretation the class makes a lot of sense. It seems that now you've moved on to saying that Shadow and Elemental will be unnecessary because we have Arcane Never said that. In fact, I'm in favor of both Elemental and Shadow. One has to wonder why you're taking aim at these two power sources; One has to wonder if you even read my posts. Have you considered starting a new account with the screen name "Arbitrary"? This is the future releases board, find me one thing here that isn't arbitrary.
#62 Ambiguous May 26, 2009 9:41:14	I find it easier to justify the existence of the Shadow Power source than the Elemental Power source. Elemental feels "done", not solely by Arcane, but by a mixture of Arcane and Primal. Theoretically Elemental could be made different from either source, but how would an Elementalist utilise their powers? A wizard casts a spell, a druid calls on the spirits. These spells and evocations are different. How would an Evoker function? What's important in looking at power sources is the names given to the powers of the power source and how much the powers themselves are united: Martial Exploits Arcane Spells (an aside but: this one is a bit of a stretch for Warlocks, imo, but makes sense for every other class.. Pacts seem to make the Warlock subserviant when in my opinion the Warlock should be the master of his controlled power) Divine Prayers Primal Evocations Psionic Disciplines Shadow could well be something associated with "secrets". The Shadow source, in my opinion, is about stolen/acquired knowledge that is meant to be kept from mortals. I'd even argue that a Warlock could better fit into this power source as I conceive it. The power source should take on a cult-like feel, though. The point of shadows is to be unseen. It's about nothingness. Potentially absolute destruction and void. Elemental... well... that's where I'm spent. I'll be impressed if WotC does a good job of it. But any Elemental class I can think of would more easily fit into Arcane or Primal. I start to think of a class capable of willing things into existence, but then I step on the toes of Sorc. I start to think of a class calling on the power of the primordials, but that just doesn't feel right for a "hero"- a class calling on the power of the spirits for elemental power better fits. Maybe it's just my weakness and my lack of knowledge when it comes to the planes and what the Elemental Chaos entails. But I, at least, can't come up with a justification for Elemental, but I feel I can for Shadow. Shadow classes sound like they'd be far more popular, too. So I expect to see that after Psionic.
#63 KoboldAvenger May 26, 2009 10:42:23	Elemental could involve Attunement, you Attune yourself to the building blocks of creation, the stuff all reality and yourself is made of to use the powers of the primordial elements.
#64 runcdfirst May 26, 2009 10:54:09	I find it easier to justify the existence of the Shadow Power source than the Elemental Power source. Elemental feels "done", not solely by Arcane, but by a mixture of Arcane and Primal. These are my feelings as well. With the dressing of the Sorcerer as an arcane striker, I feel that the elemental source has really been snuffed. Shadow can draw its power source from the Shadowfell. Divine draws it from the Astral Sea. Arcane appears to draw it from the Elemental Chaos. I really don't see anywhere that Elemental can go. And, really, Elemental's name suggests it has to be connected with the elements. As the Sorcerer has most of her abilities tied with the elements, I really don't see much left.
#65 Ambiguous May 26, 2009 11:27:49	Elemental could involve Attunement, you Attune yourself to the building blocks of creation, the stuff all reality and yourself is made of to use the powers of the primordial elements. Building blocks of creation? That sparks an interesting idea... What if elemental magic was about scientific elements? That is controlling things on a molecular level to create change. You'd be able to have cool abilities like "Hydrogen Bomb". Still, probably too sci-fi and not enough to make a whole power source out of. But the idea of the elements as the source of creation has SOME merit. I just don't know how that would manifest itself mechanically. And if you can create elements rather than just manipulate them (which is what the arcane does) doesn't that make you a little too close to godly?
#66 nandvs_the_fanpire May 26, 2009 11:49:43	. You'd be able to have cool abilities like "Hydrogen Bomb". I think that this would be done with the artifices in eberron
#67 Mcnancy May 26, 2009 12:03:25	One thing that would have been cool is if the Shadow PS, instead of giving you four new classes, just gave you mechanics for turning prexisting classes into Shadow classes; after all Shadow is just a twisted mirroring of all things. It would make alterations to class features and change certain damage types, 'powers that do this now do this' sort of stuff; Like for example the Shadow Bard would be more about causing fear in enemies than raising morale in allies.
#68 Grazel May 27, 2009 18:10:28	I keep seeing the sorcerer used as a reason for why Elemental shouldn't exist as a power source. Why should the presence of one class invalidate an entire power source? Holding to that logic each power source should have only one class because otherwise 4+ classes are all sharing damage types. The damage type of a class' powers doesn't define the class but is a byproduct of the class. The class features are what defines the class, along with the role and power source. Sure Elemental and Shadow so far would seem to be overlapped with Arcane but there's really no Arcane class that is Shadow or Elemental in all but name. Even Sorcerer since they have a fair amount of non-elemental damage types and their class features don't say "Elemental," just some of their power damage types do. In 4e Arcane is actually more narrow than in older editions. In older editions Elemental and Shadow power source classes would all likely have been arcane casters with a few one offs, but now those will be seperate. The ranger and druid are no longer lumped in with Arcane or Divine like they used to be. While this means they may be 'blasters' and 'finger wagglers' at a basic level they will have thins that make them distinct. We'll also like see non-caster type classes (or partial casters like the swordmage) that still draw their power from the raw elements or shadowstuff.
#69 Mcnancy May 27, 2009 18:31:27	I keep seeing the sorcerer used as a reason for why Elemental shouldn't exist as a power source. Why should the presence of one class invalidate an entire power source? It's not about damage type, it's about this: From PH2's sorcerer Wild Magic You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos. Whether tapping into the power of primordial beings or drawing strength directly from that plane, you unleash magic in wild surges. The entropy of the Elemental Chaos flows in your veins. Your spells open arcane conduits to that plane and draw energy through—whatever energy is convenient, impelled and empowered by the force of chaos itself. Your spells might be unpredictable, but their randomness gives them power. As a demonskin adept, you wield arcane power ripped from the depths of the Abyss, the home of demons. From Arcane Power's Sorcerer You can pull winter storms from across the world, or even from the Elemental Chaos, and use them to ruin your enemies. This ones from the Primordial Channeler PP You've heard of the ancient ones, the primordials who forged the world in an elemental explosion. You feel a kinship to those entities, and as you gain more and more power you begin to suspect you are actually related to them. If your suspicion is more than just conjecture. what does that bode for your future? Here is an Arcane class that has a direct connection to the Elemental Chaos, Demons and Primordials. This is why people use the Sorcerer as an example of why a Elemental PS would be seemingly redundant.
#70 undrave May 27, 2009 21:42:37	In the case of the Sorcerer, or more precisely the chaos mage, the real mistake was making it Arcane in the first place --
#71 vayne_halfelven May 28, 2009 1:55:24	Shadow...yes...Elemental...no. My thoughts being that there aren't many powers(outside of warlock) that deal with, or use poison or necrotic damage, that and Shadow has a much better flavor aspect to it for Necromancers older edition Black Guards, and whatnot. Elemental however is already covered in Arcane Powers, all Elemental will be is reflavored arcane powers dealing the same type of damage.
#72 Lugritor May 28, 2009 2:31:56	I feel that shadow has enough possibility for a full fledged power source, blakguards, necromancers, shadow mages, hex blades. possibility for a controller based off of summoning, excellent direct damage and damage over time, debuffs, substantial illusions, Elemental makes me think of Athas elemental clerics, but other than tht i cant fathom what would make it stand out
#73 celticmutt May 28, 2009 2:57:27	Shadow...yes...Elemental...no. My thoughts being that there aren't many powers(outside of warlock) that deal with, or use poison or necrotic damage, that and Shadow has a much better flavor aspect to it for Necromancers older edition Black Guards, and whatnot. Elemental however is already covered in Arcane Powers, all Elemental will be is reflavored arcane powers dealing the same type of damage. You don't know that though. Nobody does. For all we know, Elemental could be like 3.5's True Namers, a source that deals with altering the elements, the building blocks of things, and not simply elemental energy.
#74 lucifernietzsche May 28, 2009 4:20:51	You don't know that though. Nobody does. For all we know, Elemental could be like 3.5's True Namers, a source that deals with altering the elements, the building blocks of things, and not simply elemental energy. That might work for one class maybe even 2...but not 4. Besides...in such a case it sounds like something completely unrelated to the elemental chaos. Elemental chaos - Fire, Earth, Water, Air...plus a dominance, but not a supremacy, of chaos...home of the Abyss and its demons...prison of primordials...flipside of the Astral Sea. Doesn't thematically scream true-namer or "one-who-messes-with-REAL-elements" to me. Besides, even the gods in D&D don't know what water's actually made out of. And before anyone jumps on that...they're not all-knowing (unless particular DMs make them so, which wouldn't be me), they just know all that there is to know inside the game world...which is NOT the molecular composition of water. I'll admit a bias though...I prefer ignorant gods, since only ignorant gods would quarrel over the stupid, meaningless things that they typically do in most homebrew worlds...and FR. I'm not opposed to shadow or elemental...but I haven't seen anything yet that justifies either reasonably. I personally have doubts about the power sources released so far even...especially arcane, and unfortuantely Psionic. The only one I'm semi-comfortable with is Martial, and I have my doubts about it too.
#75 undrave May 28, 2009 18:51:11	The Primordials know what water is made of. They were born from the same Creationstuff and they used it to create the World. Elemental, mark my words, will deal with lots and LOTS of transmutation. Manipulating the basic creationstuff of the World just like the Primordials once dide! In my mind we need more power sources just to avoid making Arcane ridiculously bloated. It already has more class than any other power source.
#76 Grazel May 28, 2009 20:34:05	Elemental chaos - Fire, Earth, Water, Air...plus a dominance, but not a supremacy, of chaos...home of the Abyss and its demons...prison of primordials...flipside of the Astral Sea. Don't forget in 4e that the Elemental Chaos (and 'elemental' in general) covers more than jus the Greek Fundamental Elements like it did in previous editions. Elemental in 4e also covers: cold/ice, poison, acid, lightning, and thunder just to name the ones that have representations as damage types. Presumably if giants/titans represent aspects of the Elemental Chaos and the Primordials that means eldritch is also an element since we have Eldritch Giants in the MM2 (and therefor that means death might be an element because we have Death Giants). Elemental Chaos and the elements in 4e seems much wider in view than even the arcane power source, either that or there's some inconsistincies between the actual monsters out there and some of the general fluff we've been told on the 4e cosmology.
#77 Mcnancy May 28, 2009 21:57:35	Presumably if giants/titans represent aspects of the Elemental Chaos and the Primordials that means eldritch is also an element since we have Eldritch Giants in the MM2 (and therefor that means death might be an element because we have Death Giants). Elemental Chaos and the elements in 4e seems much wider in view than even the arcane power source, either that or there's some inconsistincies between the actual monsters out there and some of the general fluff we've been told on the 4e cosmology. If this has merit, and it might; that would mean that death is a concept within all power sources.
#78 GhostStepper May 28, 2009 23:04:14	If this has merit, and it might; that would mean that death is a concept within all power sources. In fact, we have yet to see a power source that doesn't revolve around inflicting death. ;)
#79 igniz May 29, 2009 4:55:42	It's not about damage type, it's about this: snip Here is an Arcane class that has a direct connection to the Elemental Chaos, Demons and Primordials. This is why people use the Sorcerer as an example of why a Elemental PS would be seemingly redundant. Wild Magic You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos I'lll only quote this line, and point out that you're talking about one power source from one arcane class and point out that its not about someone using the Elemental Power source or the Elemental Chaos itself, but having something of the Elemental Chaos flowing through them and open arcane conduits to that plane and draw energy through—whatever energy is convenient, impelled and empowered by the force of chaos itsel So really you're just shooting bits of the plane at people through arcane spells, not actually Elemental powered. I beleive Arcane will be more akin to Primal and deal with elements over spirits. Which would mean transformations into elements rather than simply summoning their powers. Then again, most people are assuming Elemental will revolve around elements. There could be demon bindings, demonic powers along with elemental summonings and powers. We don't know What we do know is that each new power source has brought with it classes that have been suitably different to past classes, that's the value of the power sources. If PHB 4 is Shadow and Elemental heroes, it may cater for the more sinister or morally grey character choices out there. Shdow seems apt for evil characters and negative energy, and Elemental chaos might bring characters with ties to the abyss (or just Naruto, whichever).
#80 lucifernietzsche May 29, 2009 7:30:41	Honestly...I really don't see how Elemental will be something we didn't expect. Martial only surprised us because we weren't ready for the powers system...but it still stayed well within commone preconceptions of what "martial" means. And Arcane's nature and Divine's nature didn't really surprise anyone in the least, and niether did Primal. Their basic principles all fall well within the commonly accepted notions of what the names mean. So, Elemental COULD be about demon-binding or some such only vaguely elemental nonsense...but it's extremely unlikely. Is that opinion...absolutely...but it's still probably closer to the mark. There are the elements (which many have pointed out there are "more than four" so-to-speak, as if it somehow changed anything) and there is chaos and there are the primordials...and that is the extent of the NATURE of the Elemental chaos. Everything else are merely side bits, extra features, add-ins. The abyss is rooted in the elemental chaos, but it would have nothing to do with the power source itself. It'd be worth one class...at best...probably only a build of a class. All that said...I think there WILL still be an elemental power source now...and I think it'll be nothing but some reflavored and mechanically tweaked arcane and divine. I've come to the conclusion that only a handful would actually notice anyway.
#81 celticmutt May 29, 2009 9:17:06	And Arcane's nature and Divine's nature didn't really surprise anyone in the least, and niether did Primal. Their basic principles all fall well within the commonly accepted notions of what the names mean. Heh, are you kidding? When the barbarian play test came out, there were a lot of people surprised by the "totem rages" and more than a few unhappy with it.
#82 runcdfirst May 29, 2009 9:57:37	Then again, most people are assuming Elemental will revolve around elements. There could be demon bindings, demonic powers along with elemental summonings and powers. We don't know You realize that all your suggests are for 'caster' classes? Why not make them Arcane? We already have arcane classes that dabble with demons, summons and the elemental fragments. What you've essentially described is a mix of a Warlock and a Wizard - both Arcane classes. Sure, it could work as a class (or two), but as a whole definition of a power source? Ehhh... I'm not seeing it, especially since it would be more expedient and less hoop hopping to lump it in with the Arcane. No, I still think that the Sorcerer as Arcane is really the biggest black eye for the Elemental source.
#83 Mcnancy May 29, 2009 10:36:35	All that said...I think there WILL still be an elemental power source now...and I think it'll be nothing but some reflavored and mechanically tweaked arcane and divine. I've come to the conclusion that only a handful would actually notice anyway. But what makes something Arcane or Divine if not the flavor?
#84 doctorhook May 29, 2009 14:21:39	Heh, are you kidding? When the barbarian play test came out, there were a lot of people surprised by the "totem rages" and more than a few unhappy with it. Respectfully, I don't think those people were paying attention. There were quite a few nods towards totemism in various Barbarian options during 3/3.5E, and IIRC it was also suggested in Races and Classes. As for unhappy with it, well that's that, but I don't understand why it would upset anyone.
#85 celticmutt May 29, 2009 17:23:41	You realize that all your suggests are for 'caster' classes? Why not make them Arcane? We already have arcane classes that dabble with demons, summons and the elemental fragments. What you've essentially described is a mix of a Warlock and a Wizard - both Arcane classes. Sure, it could work as a class (or two), but as a whole definition of a power source? Ehhh... I'm not seeing it, especially since it would be more expedient and less hoop hopping to lump it in with the Arcane. No, I still think that the Sorcerer as Arcane is really the biggest black eye for the Elemental source. So what if they're all casters? All the arcanes are casters, all the divines are casters, half the primals are casters, and it's a pretty good bet that roughly half the psionic and shadow classes will be casters. And the sorcerer only deals with elemental energy. There's certainly going to be more to Elemental than just elemental energy.
#86 GhostStepper May 29, 2009 18:09:52	So what if they're all casters? All the arcanes are casters, all the divines are casters, half the primals are casters, and it's a pretty good bet that roughly half the psionic and shadow classes will be casters. And the sorcerer only deals with elemental energy. There's certainly going to be more to Elemental than just elemental energy. If you really think about it, every class that isnt martial is a "caster" class. The barbarian and druid both invoke magical evocations, for instance.
#87 undrave May 29, 2009 18:55:55	Thankfully the notion of 'Caster' and 'non-caster' doesn't really matter anymore.
#88 Grazel May 29, 2009 19:14:00	Thankfully the notion of 'Caster' and 'non-caster' doesn't really matter anymore. True though I don't really see the paladin as a caster. The swordmage is only partially a caster. A few 'fling' powers doesn't make one a caster. I'd say any class that is primarily personal, aura, and weapon powers isn't a caster. Casters would be mostly area powers in my opinion, and rely mostly on implements rather than weapons.
#89 GhostStepper May 29, 2009 19:35:51	Im sorry, but hitting someone with a sword as hard as conan because your just so charismatic is pretty magical. ;)
#90 Belorin May 29, 2009 19:55:38	I believe Elemental will consist of transmutation, creation and destruction of the elements, not just elemental energy. Bel
#91 chaosfang May 29, 2009 20:05:48	Let's see... Shadowfell being a power source may also entitle Feyland being a power source. It's not entirely an impossibility, although it may be stretching things a bit much. As for Elemental being a power source, the problem would mainly lie in the interpretation of the Wild Sorcerer's Arcanic power source (which is probably more appropriate for a Chaos Mage, if anything). I wonder though: what is the description of the Elementals (Fire Elemental, Earth, Elemental, Wind Elemental, Water Elemental) in 4e? Is a power source for their attacks stated, and if so is it Arcane?
#92 celticmutt May 29, 2009 20:36:24	Let's see... Shadowfell being a power source may also entitle Feyland being a power source. It's not entirely an impossibility, although it may be stretching things a bit much. As for Elemental being a power source, the problem would mainly lie in the interpretation of the Wild Sorcerer's Arcanic power source (which is probably more appropriate for a Chaos Mage, if anything). I wonder though: what is the description of the Elementals (Fire Elemental, Earth, Elemental, Wind Elemental, Water Elemental) in 4e? Is a power source for their attacks stated, and if so is it Arcane? Feywild is already a power source - Arcane.
#93 doctorhook May 30, 2009 0:43:21	Let's see... Shadowfell being a power source may also entitle Feyland being a power source. It's not entirely an impossibility, although it may be stretching things a bit much. Feywild is already a power source - Arcane. Don't try too hard to equate the power sources with the planes -- the similarities are superficial, and the consequences of it can make your head asplode. The shortest version is that WotC has said that there is no connection between the planes and power sources. As for Elemental being a power source, the problem would mainly lie in the interpretation of the Wild Sorcerer's Arcanic power source (which is probably more appropriate for a Chaos Mage, if anything). I wonder though: what is the description of the Elementals (Fire Elemental, Earth, Elemental, Wind Elemental, Water Elemental) in 4e? Is a power source for their attacks stated, and if so is it Arcane? IIRC, the Wild Sorcerer build basically is a Chaos Mage -- in fact, I think it even comes with a Paragon Path called "Chaos Mage". Elemental creatures in 4E are a mixed bunch; there's no "Fire Elemental" or "Water Elemental", and so on. There are lots of elementals, but most command multiple energy types, to reflect the fact that 4E's Elemental Chaos is an infinite, magical plane where any and all of the elements can and do smash right into each other all the time. For example, an Elemental called a Windfury Fiend is a stormy elemental; it has the air and water subtypes (but that doesn't mean much), and it resists thunder damage and lightning damage. In 4E, the power source of a monster's attacks isn't stated, unless the creature uses powers from a class, as is often the case with elite humanoid monsters. However, most powers have energy-type keywords; the keywords match whatever damage type the attack deals. Like I said above, the more you try to read into this, the more confusing it will become. 4E is a very "gamist" game -- it doesn't try to explain itself in a consistent way for any purpose beyond making itself into a fun game.
#94 igniz May 30, 2009 16:51:58	You realize that all your suggests are for 'caster' classes? Why not make them Arcane? We already have arcane classes that dabble with demons, summons and the elemental fragments. What you've essentially described is a mix of a Warlock and a Wizard - both Arcane classes. Sure, it could work as a class (or two), but as a whole definition of a power source? Ehhh... I'm not seeing it, especially since it would be more expedient and less hoop hopping to lump it in with the Arcane. No, I still think that the Sorcerer as Arcane is really the biggest black eye for the Elemental source. I didn't make any specific suggestions about classes, but clearly elemental won't be martial it'll be elemental. If I invent a class that manipulates raw elemental power, transforms bits of themselves into elements or maybe binds explanar creatures or does any number of elemental chaos things but doesn't use the Arcane power source to do it, I should be Arcane because I could be? No thanks, I like my elemental fluff. The elemental fluff that says I control my inner Ki to generate an energy that forms into elemental energy which I use to grow wings of fire. The elemental fluff that turns me into an elemental itself and not through arcane polymorphism but by virtue of being bound to the elemental chaos. Arcane is one thing, I like others. And maybe the Sorc should've been Elemental. People are so hung up on it being the poster boy for elemental chaos power, why the hell is it arcane then? Until we see what Elemental classes are like, we won't know.
#95 runcdfirst May 31, 2009 0:21:37	If I invent a class that manipulates raw elemental power, transforms bits of themselves into elements or maybe binds explanar creatures or does any number of elemental chaos things but doesn't use the Arcane power source to do it, I should be Arcane because I could be? No thanks, I like my elemental fluff. That's great! It sounds nice and all it takes is very little refluffing of established mechanics. From what we've seen so far, Wizards isn't recycling old ideas just to fill out power sources. If they make an elemental power source, it will stand out from the power sources before it. The reason Sorcerer is totted about so much is that it draws heavily on the elements. Why would they have a class, based strictly around elemental energy, classified as arcane when they could have easily made it elemental? The elemental fluff that says I control my inner Ki to generate an energy that forms into elemental energy which I use to grow wings of fire. The elemental fluff that turns me into an elemental itself and not through arcane polymorphism but by virtue of being bound to the elemental chaos. Maybe elemental will mean something other than dealing with the elements. Seems a little... silly to suggest, but I don't work at Wizards so I can't know for certain. However, all the ideas put forward for a new Elemental Power Source, have been covered before. Ki - Psionic. Turning into things - Primal. Arcane is one thing, I like others. As do I. However, Arcane seems to be a catch all category for 'caster' like classes that don't seem strong enough to hold a new power source on their own. Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers all (fluff-wise) draw their powers from very different channels. Primal, Martial and Divine, however, have a very similar feel running through all of them. I just don't see the need for elemental and the suggestions bandied around the boards hasn't really shown a need for an elemental power source (save other than for people's desires for a wide variety in power sources).
#96 Grazel May 31, 2009 23:30:57	That's great! It sounds nice and all it takes is very little refluffing of established mechanics. From what we've seen so far, Wizards isn't recycling old ideas just to fill out power sources. If they make an elemental power source, it will stand out from the power sources before it. The reason Sorcerer is totted about so much is that it draws heavily on the elements. Why would they have a class, based strictly around elemental energy, classified as arcane when they could have easily made it elemental? Maybe elemental will mean something other than dealing with the elements. Seems a little... silly to suggest, but I don't work at Wizards so I can't know for certain. However, all the ideas put forward for a new Elemental Power Source, have been covered before. Ki - Psionic. Turning into things - Primal. As do I. However, Arcane seems to be a catch all category for 'caster' like classes that don't seem strong enough to hold a new power source on their own. Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers all (fluff-wise) draw their powers from very different channels. Primal, Martial and Divine, however, have a very similar feel running through all of them. I just don't see the need for elemental and the suggestions bandied around the boards hasn't really shown a need for an elemental power source (save other than for people's desires for a wide variety in power sources). Actually the sorcerer uses more than just elemental damage types, they also have force, psychic, and radiant at the least (can't recall if they have any necrotic). Also Primal is about the spirits, not transformation. Sure they gave the primal classes a theme of transformation for the most part but that's a mechanice, not the source, the source is the spirits of Nature and ancestors. We don't "NEED" any power sources, they are put in mostly to group related classes together, provide thematic similarities, and provide ways to restrict feat and PP access. Arcane may have different methods of access to the power source but they do draw on the same source, it's just a blend of most of the other sources at a 'higher' level than the other sources.
#97 Caeric Jun 01, 2009 22:30:21	I see the power sources as coming from within and without. External Sources: Arcane -- The Feywild Primal -- The Natural World Shadow -- The Shadowfell Elemental -- The Elemental Chaos Divine -- The Astral Sea Internal Sources: Martial -- The Body Psionic -- The Mind So far, the power sources kinda cover the planar corners, so to speak. And the internal sources cover everything except what Ki would've covered -- the Soul. These power sources all have a place in the cosmos and all have some sort of use in play. Elemental may seem tricky, until you think of what elemental means in the context of 4th Edition mythos; the primordials, the creators of the fundamentals of the universe. Truenamers are a class I could see being Elemental. Do we need Shadow and Elemental? When it comes down to it, no. But we don't need power sources. Having them doesn't change anything. There is little in the mechanics that actually uses the power source for anything, or anything sensible to use it for (opinion). Some see Necromancers as arcane, some see them as Shadow. It doesn't matter much; but there will be a Shadow power source, and there will be classes for it. If all else fails, just write over the descriptions in the book, or imagine it differently. Perhaps it's not shadow. It can be whatever you want. Them's the way imagination works.
#98 doctorhook Jun 01, 2009 23:09:07	I see the power sources as coming from within and without. External Sources: Arcane -- The Feywild Primal -- The Natural World Shadow -- The Shadowfell Elemental -- The Elemental Chaos Divine -- The Astral Sea Internal Sources: Martial -- The Body Psionic -- The Mind So far, the power sources kinda cover the planar corners, so to speak. And the internal sources cover everything except what Ki would've covered -- the Soul. These power sources all have a place in the cosmos and all have some sort of use in play. Elemental may seem tricky, until you think of what elemental means in the context of 4th Edition mythos; the primordials, the creators of the fundamentals of the universe. Truenamers are a class I could see being Elemental. If you insist on equating planes and power sources (and I strongly advise against it), let me offer one piece of advice, because you're so close to getting it right: Don't think of the power source as drawn from the planes, but rather the opposite. Consider that the planes are a manifestation of the power sources on a cosmic level, and that the power sources themselves are the fundamental energies of existence, into which adventurers tap. A handy way to think of it might be as though each plane is the biggest motherlovin' [* Conjuration, Zone] power around, each with a functionally infinite duration and the source of which isn't any particular being but rather the cosmic power sources themselves. Why is this the best way to imagine it? Because it explains why all the power sources function equally well, no matter which plane you're on; the power sources are even more fundamental to the cosmology than the fundamental planes are. Something to think about.
#99 Mist-Bound Jun 03, 2009 0:26:32	I'm not sure if this is entirely the right topic to bring this up, so please excuse me if this is wrong- I'll take it to the right topic if someone kindly points it out. Two opinions that have gnawing at me to put forth are thus: *I don't believe that a Necromancer class will be a Divine class *Whatever Source backs it, I don't believe the Necromancer will be a Leader Now, I'm not saying that Necromancer will be a Shadow class, though I do believe it has the best resonance with that source, given how thematically tied Undeath has been to Necrotic Energy and the Shadowfell (and vice versa). However, I heartily doubt that it will be a Divine class because (and I know that 4e doesn't neccessarily care about keeping to old D&D lore) necromancers have never been very "in" with the Divine crowd in past editions. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that there have been clerical necromancers in the past (the Death Priest of 2e, for example, or the True Necromancer for the Wizard/Cleric of 3.5), but necromantic priests have always been portrayed as being either followers of the most evil and malevolent gods, or as having rebelled against their own faith. Even Good necromancers (and there have been attempts at those, from the general "Grey Wizard" type who uses ambigously moraled magic to attain good ends, to the "Undeath Slayer" who studies how necromantic magic works in order to better unravel it, to the "Spirit Talker" who communicates with the restless dead in order to help them pass into the afterlife) tend not to be on very good terms with the Good deities- generally, they're tolerated at best, and they're always being watched in case they fall into corruption. Fundamentally, necromancy is about toying with the laws of life and death, something that deities and even the multiverse itself abhore (remember that even the former Cleric spell Raise Dead has problems, like chances of failure, the requirement that you had to actually reach a fairly high level in pre-4th editions, expensive reagents, etc). I don't recall if it's true or not, but weren't there even Evil deities who disapproved of Necromancy, as they considered mortal necromancers to be meddling in affairs where only deities belong? As for the non-Leader thing... fundamentally, there are two types of fantasy Necromancer; the "Thematic" and the "Literal". Neither of them is truly suited for the Leader role, which orientates around helping fellow party members, at the very least by healing them, but also by repositioning them, boosting their saves, augmenting defences, and other such things. Necromancy isn't a very "buff friendly" style- it's always been about either saving the Necromancer's hide alone or putting the hurt on the enemy. The Literal necromancer is the black wizard that immediately occurs when the title is mentioned; a wizard who commands the undead like puppets and uses them to do his bidding. In 4e terms, this character would rely heavily on Summoning and Conjuration keyworded powers, supplimented with powers that are "summoning themed"- for an example... Wail of the Banshee Necromancer Daily Called by your invocations, a tormented spirit momentarily slips into the warmth of the living world. It voices a soul-rending shriek of pain and longing, then vanishes as quickly as it came. In other words, it's functionally a lot like a Summoning-focused Wizard, so a Controller. Yes, from a personal viewpoint it's a Leader; it commands its minions almost like a reflection of the party in miniature. However, in terms of how it aids the party, it's definately a Controller. The "Thematic" necromancer, on the other hand, is basically my term for the mystic who uses powers that have a necromantic "motif", but which don't actually involve the undead. Withering flesh with a touch, stealing souls, causing decay, surges of otherworldly chill, controlling vermin, inflicting disease, these are the sorts of powers that I bundle under "thematic" necromancy. These tended to form the basis of the Necromancer's spells in past editions of D&D, as one couldn't rely exclusively on the Animate Dead and Summon Undead cluster. Spells like Ghoul's Gauntlet, Lich's Touch, Beltyn's Burning Blood, Exerminate, Death, Brainkill, etcetera. This could actually warrant the "thematic necromancer" (under a new name, of course) being a seperate class, either another Controller or even a new Striker. Now, I will admit there were some vaguely buffing spells, like False Life and Transmute Bone to Steel, but the majority of a necromancer's spells either hurt people in a (really) nasty way, or commanded the undead. A Leader role just doesn't fit the theme of the Necromancer- and remember, if it focuses on screwing up the enemy, it's a Controller, not a Leader; Leaders focus on helping allies by helping them, not by wrecking the enemy so they can't hurt the character's allies.