Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wafflecop Feb 28, 2009 14:41:58	In conjunction with the current three core rule books that is.
#2 LFK Feb 28, 2009 14:50:53	Signs are pointing towards "Balanced." What's looking like it's more of a 'threat' is "appeal creep" where the newer classes still have their shiny polish.
#3 wafflecop Feb 28, 2009 15:30:15	Signs are pointing towards "Balanced." I hope so
#4 wafflecop Feb 28, 2009 15:54:32	Have all the races and new classes been revealed? I'm not up to date on this stuff.
#5 Seeker95 Feb 28, 2009 15:57:23	Do you think the PHB2 will be balanced/unbalanced in conjunction with the current three core rule books that is? Yes. And once I see it, I will be able to let you know which.
#6 sigil_beguiler Feb 28, 2009 15:59:45	Have all the races and new classes been revealed? I'm not up to date on this stuff. Yup. Classes: Avenger: Divine Striker Invoker: Divine Controller Bard: Arcane Leader Sorcerer: Arcane Striker Druid: Primal Controller Shaman: Primal Leader Barbarian: Primal Striker Warden: Primal Defender Races: Deva Gnome Shifter Half-Orc Goliath
#7 wafflecop Feb 28, 2009 16:01:53	I know it comes out next month, but is there an exact release date yet?
#8 sigil_beguiler Feb 28, 2009 16:04:26	I know it comes out next month, but is there an exact release date yet? According to Amazon it is being released March 17th.
#9 syntax_eror_dup Feb 28, 2009 16:07:03	Are there only going to be 5 "new" races? I realize they are not necessarily "new" but they are considered the official PC versions of said race. I would have thought there would be 8 races and 8 classes per PHBX just like in the first one. Then they would fill the PHB2 and beyond up with more magical items, extra options for pre-existing races, more options for new races; rituals and other such things in order to make up the space gained by not having a combat section. I could be wrong.
#10 Xeviat-DM Feb 28, 2009 16:13:10	The only real worry I have is that the Wizard will be overshadowed by the Druid and Invoker.
#11 celticmutt Feb 28, 2009 16:46:38	Are there only going to be 5 "new" races? I realize they are not necessarily "new" but they are considered the official PC versions of said race. I would have thought there would be 8 races and 8 classes per PHBX just like in the first one. Then they would fill the PHB2 and beyond up with more magical items, extra options for pre-existing races, more options for new races; rituals and other such things in order to make up the space gained by not having a combat section. I could be wrong. It's possible the Shifter is split up into more than one race, unlike the Genasi. Otherwise it's just the 5.
#12 Authw8 Feb 28, 2009 16:49:26	The only real worry I have is that the Wizard will be overshadowed by the Druid and Invoker. It would be nice to see arcane power bring the wizard up to the new controller standard. It seems to me like the controller role has shifted somewhat, and the wizard needs some help to keep up with the times.
#13 Mechalibur Feb 28, 2009 16:55:45	Balanced to the martial classes, but the cleric, paladin, and especially wizard and warlock will be slightly underpowered until arcane and divine power comes out.
#14 gerrard_mac_douglas Feb 28, 2009 17:13:28	i hope it's so broke that i might as well take twenties all the time
#15 dhampyrus Feb 28, 2009 18:36:14	Given the great lengths to ensure the original product(s) were as balanced as they could make them, I expect that the PHB2 will follow a similar line of thought and execution. Of course the inclusion of "new" races and "new" classes does have the potential to undermine the previous races and classes if the bonuses trump the previous ones, though I'm of the mindset that this shouldn't be the case. At least I hope so. Personally I'm reserving judgment, since there is little in the PHB2 that's been publicly revealed (outside of D&DI), that I am aware of. Not being a D&DI I can only wait until the manual is released and see things for myself. Fingers crossed, and a sacrificial goat for good measure just in case.
#16 canamrock Feb 28, 2009 20:01:27	My guess? I'd expect a mostly balanced power set and feat list, with probably a few stinkers and at least one unintentionally amazing option as we've seen in nearly every book so far. Still, 'balanced' is how I'd venture the book turns out in a word.
#17 salla Mar 01, 2009 10:18:27	Signs are pointing towards "Balanced." What's looking like it's more of a 'threat' is "appeal creep" where the newer classes still have their shiny polish. You get that with everything, though. The first game after the Draconomicon came out, the DM threw a dragon at us. The first game after Open Grave came out? Undead.
#18 FrozenWastes Mar 01, 2009 12:01:41	With the previews of levels 1-3 for a decent amount of the PHB2 classes, I feel it'll be pretty balanced. I'm a huge multiclassing/half-elf fan and am especially looking forward to having a wider range of classes that have primary attack stats the same as PHB classes. For example, a WIS/CHA healer paladin getting Avenger attacks. Or a CHA rogue who wants be get a bit blasty taking sorcerer attacks. WIS Clerics will also probably like the Avenger powers for adding some melee oomph.
#19 sinis Mar 01, 2009 12:04:20	There's no way to know, it could be relatively balanced, or it could be Adventurer's Vault + races/classes.
#20 jimthegray Mar 01, 2009 12:05:32	The only real worry I have is that the Wizard will be overshadowed by the Druid and Invoker. maybe for a month then arcane power comes out
#21 Titanium_Dragon Mar 01, 2009 23:45:24	I don't expect it to be any more balanced than the AV or Martial Power, which had some balance issues (though largely with just a few things which were outrageously out of whack; the overall power level was fairly consistent between the PHB, AV, and MP, but MP and AV both had more random broken stuff than the PHB did).
#22 Bolongo Mar 02, 2009 2:41:50	I know it comes out next month, but is there an exact release date yet? Memorize this formula: "third tuesday of the month." There. Now you will never need to ask this question again. :D
#23 malisteen Mar 02, 2009 6:11:39	That depends on how balanced you think the original core books were. Seems to me some aspects (wizard, Warlock, anything with split-stat primaries) of the original PHB are somewhat less good then they should be. Invoker could be slightly (but noticeably) better then the wizard, sorcerer better then the warlock, and every class could benefit from a single attack stat, and I would still call the PHBII balanced. Heck, I might call it more balanced.
#24 Steely_Dan Mar 02, 2009 7:43:19	I'm leaning more towards balanced, as I have more faith in the lack of power creep in this edition than any previous ones. Except for that item in the AV…
#25 cadfan Mar 02, 2009 9:28:44	The only real worry I have is that the Wizard will be overshadowed by the Druid and Invoker. Obviously I've only seen levels 1 to 3 so far. But I've seen both the Invoker and Druid in play, and while they're neat, nothing beats the wizard for sheer artillery power.
#26 Steely_Dan Mar 02, 2009 9:32:57	Obviously I've only seen levels 1 to 3 so far. But I've seen both the Invoker and Druid in play, and while they're neat, nothing beats the wizard for sheer artillery power. Yeah, I think the 4th Ed wizards being underpowered has sort of perpetuated itself into a gaming myth. I guess because in every previous edition they were…
#27 Mirtek Mar 02, 2009 10:04:19	In conjunction with the current three core rule books that is. I am curious which new weapons the PHB II will introduce. I hope they don't just reuse old stats with new names (e.g. the broadsword vs. battle axe vs. flail)
#28 akodokoji Mar 02, 2009 10:07:26	Except for that item in the AV… Which item is unbalanced. I have it and didnt notice anything. Granted I only skimmed it.
#29 Steely_Dan Mar 02, 2009 10:11:56	Which item is unbalanced. I have it and didnt notice anything. Granted I only skimmed it. A 28th level dwarf orbizard with a 28 Wis and a +6 orb of ultimate imposition can force enemies to take a -15 penalty to their saving throw, so Orcus could only become un-stunned if he rolled a natural 20. That's why that item is a travesty of a mockery of a sham.
#30 universalsheep Mar 02, 2009 10:44:33	dont forget the doomsayer pp, make him roll a natural 20, twice. actually though, you could be dwarf or human and if you go demigod ed, i dont think even a natural 20 would break stun (unless nat 20s still make saves, like they autohit, which i dont think they do if i recall correctly)
#31 brigidt Mar 02, 2009 11:32:12	I feel with there's a lot of hope for the new hand book. i like how it's come along too... the confirmation of some of the classes just makes me even more excited for it's release. Someone noted how they saw previews of the classes-where is that? [/newb]
#32 Titanium_Dragon Mar 02, 2009 14:12:03	That depends on how balanced you think the original core books were. Seems to me some aspects (wizard, Warlock, anything with split-stat primaries) of the original PHB are somewhat less good then they should be. Invoker could be slightly (but noticeably) better then the wizard, sorcerer better then the warlock, and every class could benefit from a single attack stat, and I would still call the PHBII balanced. Heck, I might call it more balanced. Wizards are the strongest class in the PHB, but that's because as written Orb of Imposition is broken. Static save ends penalties are also broken. Except for that item in the AV… What is "that" item? There are lots of hugely problematic items in the AV, so you'll have to narrow it down more. Solitaire? Giant Lizard/Sword Spider mounts? Bloodclaw weapons? Phrenic Crown? That fear crown whose name I forget which gives a penalty to saves vs fear effects for all who see it? Earthroot Staff? Orb of Ultimate Imposition?
#33 empiro Mar 02, 2009 23:10:19	I'm sure that it'll be balanced like the PHB/AV/MP, which is to say that it'll be mostly balanced, with a quite a bit of lousy stuff, and a few blatantly overpowered options (like Orb Wizards, Marked Scourage). It'll probably also contain a couple of options that make certain combos overpowered or even broken (Orb of Ultimate Imposition + Orb Wizards, Double Swords + Tempest Fighter). All in all, it'll probably continue the tradition of these books adding to the power creep of 4e. Remember that it doesn't matter if 95% of the book is perfectly balanced. All that matters is the top 5% that pushes up the power curve.
#34 Steely_Dan Mar 03, 2009 2:08:23	What is "that" item? There are lots of hugely problematic items in the AV, so you'll have to narrow it down more. I will repeat my post from the previous page: "A 28th level dwarf orbizard with a 28 Wis and a +6 orb of ultimate imposition can force enemies to take a -15 penalty to their saving throws, so Orcus could only become un-stunned if he rolled a natural 20. That's why that item is a travesty of a mockery of a sham."
#35 belladonna5012 Mar 03, 2009 3:34:51	Don't forget Spell Focus. It's a -2 and a great reason to start with Cha 12! For some spells, you can also throw on a phrenic crown to get up to a -3.
#36 Steely_Dan Mar 03, 2009 5:18:38	Don't forget Spell Focus. It's a -2 and a great reason to start with Cha 12! For some spells, you can also throw on a phrenic crown to get up to a -3. Ah, of course, so that's a potential -18, so even on a natural 20 Orcus couldn't become un-stunned, so it's a complete lock…great.
#37 belladonna5012 Mar 03, 2009 5:31:05	Ah, of course, so that's a potential -18, so even on a natural 20 Orcus couldn't become un-stunned, so it's a complete lock…great. I think a natural 20 would still succeed. But yeah, a Sleep with that would put him down for the count and let the damage-dealers pile on ridiculous coup de grace ouchies before he's likely to wake up.
#38 Steely_Dan Mar 03, 2009 5:35:53	I think a natural 20 would still succeed. B I forget, does a natural 20 on a saving throw automatically succeed like an attack roll?
#39 Bolongo Mar 03, 2009 5:44:45	I forget, does a natural 20 on a saving throw automatically succeed like an attack roll? No.
#40 Steely_Dan Mar 03, 2009 6:47:59	No. So, auto-lock it is.
#41 belladonna5012 Mar 03, 2009 6:48:50	So, auto-lock it is. Poor Orcus. Makes me kind of glad I went orbizard, though I kind of wish I'd gone staff for heroic tier.
#42 Steely_Dan Mar 03, 2009 6:54:39	Poor Orcus. Makes me kind of glad I went orbizard, though I kind of wish I'd gone staff for heroic tier. That's cool, as long as your DM has the sense to make sure that item does not exist in his/her campaign.
#43 malisteen Mar 04, 2009 9:03:07	Orb wizard is only good if you put a very high score in wisdom and up it every opportunity. The wizard in my party heard the orb was the best implement from the DM and chose it, but put a starting 14 in wisdom, figuring that was good enough for a secondary stat, and hasn't upped it yet. The character makes almost no use of the feature. Wizard in 4e requires much more 'game mastery' then 4e was supposed to require. The difference between a non-orb (or low wis) wizard targeting fort and reflex, spending stat points on tertiary stats to qualify for fluffy elemental damage feats, and a high wis orb wizard with save ends incapacitate effects targeting will is huge. I can only hope that all of the PHBII classes are simultaneously much better and much worse then the Wizard.
#44 Johnny_Angel Mar 05, 2009 17:34:48	I feel that many of the feats from PHB2 will be far better than feats of the same level from PHB1. In my experiences, the PCs already stomp all over the monsters and most encounters; I think that with PHB2 the trend will only get more lopsided. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but -even with only the few feats I've seen- I can already think of a few ways to break the system. I also don't like the trend of feats allowing you to substitute one ability for a different ability. Having a few paragon paths or epic destinies which allow you to do so is fine, but I would prefer that 4E not follow the same road that 3E did and allow PCs to essentially pick and choose which abilities they used for everything. It tends to make certain abilities obsolete, and (if taken to the extreme that certain later 3E products were) makes it possible to create a character who uses one ability for everything.
#45 LFK Mar 05, 2009 18:20:13	Now that we've seen the General Heroic Tier feats I'd say no, they aren't terrifically more powerful than the PHB1 feats. They patch some holes in a few cases (like allowing non-strength based, non-HBO classes to actually have a OA worth fearing) but for the most part they're similar in scope and impact.