Does Dungeons and Dragons suffer from a third act problem? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Does Dungeons and Dragons suffer from a third act problem?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
laredric
Mar 27, 2010 17:02:36
Act 1. The Core rules are released
Act 2. Splat books and some campaign settings are released
Act 3. .....Frostburn maybe, or Players Handbook 4...5.....6

Each edition of Dungeons and Dragons slowly becomes an accumulation or rules, patches or workarounds for flaws in the game (focused expertise, I am looking at you) such that as it becomes deeper and more intricate it becomes less inviting to new gamers. I suppose even computer games can suffer this fate (say, how Everquest kept expanding until Everquest 2 became needed) but tabletop games, which already must compete with the endless distraction of teh internets, suffer the distraction of complexity even more.

I humbly suggest that WoC throw the template out the door. Use the essentials line to set D&D in stone, and then instead of releasing expansion packs, release more things like Hammerfast, or and "Unearthed Arcana" book, (both of which are essentially mods or packs of mods). You already have 25+ classes to support, and it is darn early in the product cycle still. Will we look forward to 75+ classes a few years from now?

I mean this as a humble suggestion for a problem which D&D does have, not a rant, so everyone please reply in that spirit.
#2
Dragoncat
Mar 27, 2010 17:51:26 The third act has plenty of potential, ranging from books like the Heroes of Battle/Horror books for wargames, mysteries, horrorfests, etc, to a dedicated book of environmental ideas, to the Big Book of Races discussed over in the PHB4 thread. There's lots of ideas out there, and all it takes is pinning them down into themed books that will appeal to a wide audience.

It might mean becoming more intricate, but all it has to do is express itself in a way that invites lots of different people. While a "Here's a list of environmental rules without fluff" book might not work, How To Run A Swashbuckling Adventure has direct, thematic appeal. All the products need to do is have enough hooks in them so that any given DM or Player can look at it and say "I know EXACTLY where I'm going to use this!"
#3
Legendarius
Mar 28, 2010 8:19:19 I think part of the problem with the third act books is that they can be so dependent on earlier products. Aside from the core rules, how long will some of these other products from the first and second act remain in print? It doesn't do much good if a third act book enhances some earlier class or race but the original source material is out of print and hard to find.

True, DDI helps with this somewhat. None of the classes will go out of print from the character builder's perspective for example. But without the ability to buy all of the earlier books it does detract from the value of later items.

The other issue from a consumer perspective with third act books is shelf space. I only have so much room in the house. If you're like me and have a lot of books from pretty much every edition of the game, that's a lot of material. Fewer, meatier products are better choices for the third act in my book. So you want a book about running campaigns of different styles like Heroes of Battle or Horror did for 3E? Make a big book on campaign themes and talk about all of the styles of play: adventure, horror, comedy, war, romance, etc. All in one book, not a lot of little books.

How about a big book on running castles and domains and campaigns that center on the political level to include large scale war machine style rules?

A few high quality mega-adventures/campaigns in a box?

Keep going with one campaign setting a year.

And one Monster Manual a year. Who doesn't love monsters?

L
#4
laredric
Mar 28, 2010 17:14:13
Hammerfast does a good job a balancing too much and too little detail for a campaign, and I like it, but I don't think that such mods will bring new people into the game. As much as I hate to say it, for the casual gamer, D&D almost needs to be reduced to the level of a board game. If you streamline everything into a dozen classes, with only a few level range, and then instead of using the character builder you just pass out power cards to be used over a series of encounters, and call that a game, you can drag in all the monopoly/chutes and ladders crowd. It might not be the game that I would want to play, but if it makes WoC some money and draws a few people further into "hardcore" it would be a success.
#5
azazyll
Mar 28, 2010 17:29:24 See, the third act is where things get interesting. For me at least. As long as they aren't so focused on the next act one that they get sloppy (which well describes the last six months to a year of 3.5). I like to see all of the content beginning to interact. One of the things I really like about 4th is that they continue to incorporate new material for the newer additions. There was no new content in 3.x for options like tome of battle or incarnum, they were isolated one shots. Even spectacular ideas like the warlock got remarkably little love. The nice thing about 4th is that everything actually does get incoporated into the core rules.

Besides, if the new psionic power source is any indication, we may finally get unique and interesting classes in a few years with the third act of fourth edition ;)
#6
mouthymerc
Mar 28, 2010 21:50:55

Act 3. .....Frostburn maybe, or Players Handbook 4...5.....6

I think we will see things like Heroes of Battle/Horror and Frostburn, but in future PHs and DMGs, rather than seperate supplements. Each new PH and DMG allows them to expand on those options for characters and campaigns.
#7
tsukinousagi
Mar 29, 2010 9:57:18 No, role gaming suffers from only two realities.

Reality 1, if you don't make a product, it can't be sold, you can't make money, and you go out of business. No way to eliminate this problem either.

Reality 2. it's a game of imaginary reality where there is no such thng as firm finite factual rules.
You say something is designed wrong, another says it is designed right. Neither are correct, both are right.

I'm a long time wargamer. In the rules of serious wargaming board games, such as Advanced Squad Leader, the precise and exact wording of a rules clause is something demanding entirely correct usage of the language. The rules are NOT negotiable. They are not guides, not open for discussion, and are meant to recreate actual events that actually occurred.

Not so with a role game.

If you didn't like Rule Book 2 but love Rule book 3, then don't buy and or use rule book 2.
If a line in a portion of the DMG sucks, change it. If you think rules concept A rocks, and rules concept B is idiotic, you are not required to use it precisely as presented. Granted a lotof play balance is presumed to follow the official printing. Mess with at your own peril.

In my view, you can't play this game without the first Players Handbook. Virtually everything else is optional. Granted the DM will suffer a lot of extra inventive workload without the DMG and the first Monster Manual.

Buy books or not, but never say they were required.

You only have one thing to fear, an inability to tell a player 'no, I am not using that'. Fail to set limits, and yes, you are stuck.
#8
Style75
Apr 01, 2010 10:43:54
I don't see the "Third Act" content as a problem because I can simply choose to ignore it.

The great thing about RPG's vs. video games is that the DM and the players are in control of what content is used.

Case in point.... in my current campaign I said all character races/classes/rules were usable: If you can build it, you can play it. But a friend of mine is starting up a 4th edition PHB1 campaign: races, classes, feats, powers, etc. from PHB1 ONLY. I can't wait to get that one started. I like the simplicity of it as a counterpoint to my own campaign.

So let WoTC print whatever they want, the players can always say "No thanks" and still enjoy their own games.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 laredric Mar 27, 2010 17:02:36	Act 1. The Core rules are released Act 2. Splat books and some campaign settings are released Act 3. .....Frostburn maybe, or Players Handbook 4...5.....6 Each edition of Dungeons and Dragons slowly becomes an accumulation or rules, patches or workarounds for flaws in the game (focused expertise, I am looking at you) such that as it becomes deeper and more intricate it becomes less inviting to new gamers. I suppose even computer games can suffer this fate (say, how Everquest kept expanding until Everquest 2 became needed) but tabletop games, which already must compete with the endless distraction of teh internets, suffer the distraction of complexity even more. I humbly suggest that WoC throw the template out the door. Use the essentials line to set D&D in stone, and then instead of releasing expansion packs, release more things like Hammerfast, or and "Unearthed Arcana" book, (both of which are essentially mods or packs of mods). You already have 25+ classes to support, and it is darn early in the product cycle still. Will we look forward to 75+ classes a few years from now? I mean this as a humble suggestion for a problem which D&D does have, not a rant, so everyone please reply in that spirit.
#2 Dragoncat Mar 27, 2010 17:51:26	The third act has plenty of potential, ranging from books like the Heroes of Battle/Horror books for wargames, mysteries, horrorfests, etc, to a dedicated book of environmental ideas, to the Big Book of Races discussed over in the PHB4 thread. There's lots of ideas out there, and all it takes is pinning them down into themed books that will appeal to a wide audience. It might mean becoming more intricate, but all it has to do is express itself in a way that invites lots of different people. While a "Here's a list of environmental rules without fluff" book might not work, How To Run A Swashbuckling Adventure has direct, thematic appeal. All the products need to do is have enough hooks in them so that any given DM or Player can look at it and say "I know EXACTLY where I'm going to use this!"
#3 Legendarius Mar 28, 2010 8:19:19	I think part of the problem with the third act books is that they can be so dependent on earlier products. Aside from the core rules, how long will some of these other products from the first and second act remain in print? It doesn't do much good if a third act book enhances some earlier class or race but the original source material is out of print and hard to find. True, DDI helps with this somewhat. None of the classes will go out of print from the character builder's perspective for example. But without the ability to buy all of the earlier books it does detract from the value of later items. The other issue from a consumer perspective with third act books is shelf space. I only have so much room in the house. If you're like me and have a lot of books from pretty much every edition of the game, that's a lot of material. Fewer, meatier products are better choices for the third act in my book. So you want a book about running campaigns of different styles like Heroes of Battle or Horror did for 3E? Make a big book on campaign themes and talk about all of the styles of play: adventure, horror, comedy, war, romance, etc. All in one book, not a lot of little books. How about a big book on running castles and domains and campaigns that center on the political level to include large scale war machine style rules? A few high quality mega-adventures/campaigns in a box? Keep going with one campaign setting a year. And one Monster Manual a year. Who doesn't love monsters? L
#4 laredric Mar 28, 2010 17:14:13	Hammerfast does a good job a balancing too much and too little detail for a campaign, and I like it, but I don't think that such mods will bring new people into the game. As much as I hate to say it, for the casual gamer, D&D almost needs to be reduced to the level of a board game. If you streamline everything into a dozen classes, with only a few level range, and then instead of using the character builder you just pass out power cards to be used over a series of encounters, and call that a game, you can drag in all the monopoly/chutes and ladders crowd. It might not be the game that I would want to play, but if it makes WoC some money and draws a few people further into "hardcore" it would be a success.
#5 azazyll Mar 28, 2010 17:29:24	See, the third act is where things get interesting. For me at least. As long as they aren't so focused on the next act one that they get sloppy (which well describes the last six months to a year of 3.5). I like to see all of the content beginning to interact. One of the things I really like about 4th is that they continue to incorporate new material for the newer additions. There was no new content in 3.x for options like tome of battle or incarnum, they were isolated one shots. Even spectacular ideas like the warlock got remarkably little love. The nice thing about 4th is that everything actually does get incoporated into the core rules. Besides, if the new psionic power source is any indication, we may finally get unique and interesting classes in a few years with the third act of fourth edition ;)
#6 mouthymerc Mar 28, 2010 21:50:55	Act 3. .....Frostburn maybe, or Players Handbook 4...5.....6 I think we will see things like Heroes of Battle/Horror and Frostburn, but in future PHs and DMGs, rather than seperate supplements. Each new PH and DMG allows them to expand on those options for characters and campaigns.
#7 tsukinousagi Mar 29, 2010 9:57:18	No, role gaming suffers from only two realities. Reality 1, if you don't make a product, it can't be sold, you can't make money, and you go out of business. No way to eliminate this problem either. Reality 2. it's a game of imaginary reality where there is no such thng as firm finite factual rules. You say something is designed wrong, another says it is designed right. Neither are correct, both are right. I'm a long time wargamer. In the rules of serious wargaming board games, such as Advanced Squad Leader, the precise and exact wording of a rules clause is something demanding entirely correct usage of the language. The rules are NOT negotiable. They are not guides, not open for discussion, and are meant to recreate actual events that actually occurred. Not so with a role game. If you didn't like Rule Book 2 but love Rule book 3, then don't buy and or use rule book 2. If a line in a portion of the DMG sucks, change it. If you think rules concept A rocks, and rules concept B is idiotic, you are not required to use it precisely as presented. Granted a lotof play balance is presumed to follow the official printing. Mess with at your own peril. In my view, you can't play this game without the first Players Handbook. Virtually everything else is optional. Granted the DM will suffer a lot of extra inventive workload without the DMG and the first Monster Manual. Buy books or not, but never say they were required. You only have one thing to fear, an inability to tell a player 'no, I am not using that'. Fail to set limits, and yes, you are stuck.
#8 Style75 Apr 01, 2010 10:43:54	I don't see the "Third Act" content as a problem because I can simply choose to ignore it. The great thing about RPG's vs. video games is that the DM and the players are in control of what content is used. Case in point.... in my current campaign I said all character races/classes/rules were usable: If you can build it, you can play it. But a friend of mine is starting up a 4th edition PHB1 campaign: races, classes, feats, powers, etc. from PHB1 ONLY. I can't wait to get that one started. I like the simplicity of it as a counterpoint to my own campaign. So let WoTC print whatever they want, the players can always say "No thanks" and still enjoy their own games.