I would love to see Wizards bring ravenloft into 4E; and not just by having fragments of it in their less than stellar points of light setting. I want old school ravenloft.
It seems that many would love to see "old school" (fill in the blank - Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer), but I just do not think it will happen that way. The three I just mentioned are all part of the core setting now, so I do expect more information on them, but I do not expect a "Ravenloft" campaign setting. Would I love to see a sourcebook for it? Absolutely. Do I think we will get it? Nope. I think the best we will get will be a chapter in a book on the Shadowfell (where the domains now reside) along with DDi support through the online mags.
Sigil is covered on p25 - 29.
Spelljammers, Astral Skiffs, and Planar Dromonds are in the Magic Item section, with scattered references to each throughout the various planar entries.
The "Domains of Dread" comprise three paragraphs on page 51, while Strahd Von Zarovich, and his minions (Strahd Zombie/Skeleton) get write-ups in Open Grave.
The interesting thing of note is that while they did not mention the "Core", there were hints that other "domains of dread" scattered throughout the shadowfell which the denizens of the "Core" have no knowledge of.
As it appears the devs intend to release a plane-book for each of the planes (starting with Plane Below), I expect that the "Dread Realms" will get a chapter or two in the Shadowfell plane-book - with hopfefull mention given to the "Core" and the mysterious "Dark Powers" said to hold sway over them.... (Is it possible that this is the work of the Raven Queen, Orcus, or some Elder Evil of the Far realm.......)
The good thing about Ravenloft is that the majority of pre-existing Ravenloft material (save Stat-Blocks, power checks, and horror/madness) is edition proof, and translates seemlessly into the "Points of Light" setting.
Its not like the population and landscape of Barovia, Darkkon, and the other "Dread Realms", and the motivations of their citizens and lords will have changed much with the transition to 4E.
Then again, given the fact that the information is largely edition-proof, it would take them less than a month to release a sourcebook covering the "Dread Realms" and its denizens.... Hopefully, an edition-proof sourcebook.
The fact that Strahd and the Strahd Zombie/Skeleton were detailed in "Open Grave" leads me to the belief that most domain lords and unique Ravenloft (aka: Shadowfell) monsters, will be covered in various "Monster Manual" suppliments - while Horror/Madness (and possibly Powers checks) could be in the DMG2, or PHB3 (shadow).
Finally, there is the fact that they axed alignment-detection in 4E, something the "Dark Powers" of Ravenloft are all to happy with.
All in all, it seems unneccessary for the Devs to re-create Planescape or Ravenloft, as these "settings" have been incorporated into the core game, and will be undoubtably expanded upon in various upcoming source-books.
On a similar topic, I found it really odd that Open Grave gave us Strahd and talked briefly about his domain of Barovia, but made no mention whatsoever about it being a Domain of Dread. It was talked about as if it were any other place in the world.
I would also like to the inclusion somehow of the Vistani, the gypsies who can travel the Mists freely and whose bloodline often carries the gift of Sight or Cursing (as seen most recently in the novel Heaven's Bones that came out last September.) I could see it maybe being done as a Bloodline only available to Humans (and Human sub-species, such as Tieflings and Shadar-Kai) that gives access to the Sight & Cursing (maybe as powers or feats).
I think the way they are doing it for 4e works better than a fixed Ravenloft setting. The only thing missing really are the madness/horror checks but those aren't really needed in a core setting, though there's no reason they can't put them as an optional rule in DMG2 or the Shadowfell book.
We've gotten some bits on Sigil and we now know that Sigil will be the detailed city in the DMG2 (geared for Paragon-tier adventurers/adventures). That combined with DDI content and MotP should be enough to cover Planescape as a 'setting'.
Spelljammer is getting it's bits tossed in here and there without detailing the cosmological altering parts of that setting.
The key here is all three (Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammer) were essentially meta-settings. While they introduced mechanics and entities they weren't in their own pocket and insulated from the other campaign settings. Spelljammer and Planescape both provided a travel means to the other campaign settings, and Ravenloft was comprised of lands and people from other campaign settings (notably Oerth, Krynn, and Toril).
All we really need to 'recreate' all three is the mechanics added. Planescape was the easiest as it was mostly fluff and a way to use the info about the Planes. Spelljammer is mostly the vessels which they've started to put in and more can be added to it over time. Ravenloft has the biggest chunk of 'special rules' in the horror/madness mechanics but even that isn't really much more than a DDI article to flesh out and be applicable campaign wide, whether it's set in Ravenloft's DoD or elsewhere.
I think Strahd wasn't listed as a domain of dread so a DM can decide to put him in their PoL setting without sequestering him off into a DoD.
See, I've never really liked that kind of thinking though. If the story / canon says that he's a Darklord and that Barovia is a Domain of Dread, then he / it should have been listed as one. If individual DMs want to use him and Barovia outside of the canon story, then that's that DM's decision and wouldn't be at all difficult to do.
And since Barovia is essentially at the heart of the "Core domains" (i.e. the Domains of Dread that can be traveled between freely, except when their borders have been closed) that means that removing Barovia as a Domain just for the sake of ambiguity makes the idea of the "Core" ever appearing kinda pointless.
If I sound bitter it's because I completely dispise the entire "game world with as little canon as possible" approach WotC is using with the core setting and with 4e in general. I mean, hell, the went as far as calling the new core setting "The World," saying that no one remembers or uses any proper name for it anymore. That's bs of the highest degree.
I mean, look at it from a slightly different perspective... myself and the group I DM for love to play crossover games/stories which I do have to say is easier than ever in 4e because of the combined, universal cosmology.
Now imagine this scene:
A group of various adventurers meet in a tavern in Sigil and are talking about where they're from and what they've done.
Adventurer #1: "I'm from Toril"
Adventurer #2: "I'm from Eberron"
Adventurer #3: "I'm from Krynn"
Adventurer #4: "I'm from The World"
#1-3 look at #4 like he's retarded and say, "Yeah, we're all from a world, shortbus... which world?"
I know it's a cheesy example, but I haven't slept in a couple days and it's the best I could think of... however, it does show my contempt for the half-assed approach WotC has had to created the core setting. Don't get me wrong... I love the snippets of history we've gotten about the Nerath Empire, the empires of Bael Turath and Arkhosia, and the empire of Marut before them, and I'd love to see more of this history and this particular world. But my big complaint is the lack of canonicity and world-story we have for the setting. "Points of Light" is a great campaign model (a world whose major powers have fallen and is largely borderlands/wilderness), however Points of Light doesn't have to mean "little to no cohesive world story" and "no maps of the world and where places are in relation to each other". I'm fine with these maps not being in the hands of the PCs because that goes along with the main idea of the setting, but they should still exist for the DM's use.
And I know a lot of people would tell me to just create whatever maps I want myself and place the Nentir Vale, the Elsir Vale, and Skull City wherever the hell I want them, but frankly that's the game designers job, not mine; if I wanted to create my own setting I would, and if this is supposed to be the official setting of the D&D core adventures (and take place in the same cosmology as Forgotten Realms, Eberron, and the others not released yet) then it should really be a full, complete setting.
Sorry for being so long-winded... the rant's over
That's a complaint many had with Toril/FR because it was so heavily detailed and populated there wasn't much leeway for home campaigns without breaking/ignoring 'canon'.
Also in the cultures left over in the PoL setting most would just call their home 'the World'. It follows the language phenom of the Native Americans, the names we gave them are most often just their word for 'people' or 'The People'. So the World needs a name? Give it one. It's not a big deal.
You don't want to make your own campaign world? Use Forgotten Realms or Eberron later this year, or adapt Krynn, Oerth, Athas, or Ravenloft. Those might take more work but if you don't want to put the work into the campaign world how exciting would adventures be in it for anyone who wants more out of 4e than combat?
I think they're doing it right with 4e. They're giving a loose framework for the DMs to make their own worlds and campaigns without having to deal with a player going "That's not canon!".
And your example is valid and if done right might make for an interesting adventure as character 4 goes back to 'the world' and goes looking for a lost civilization to see if his home reality has some other name than 'world'. Heck who says Common on his Prime is the same as Common on Toril or others. Maybe Toril, Oerth, Krynn, and others are just that Prime's 'Common' for 'world' so they're all from 'the World' it just isn't translated into English for us.
Maybe, with each new region they introduce (the Nentir Vale, the Elsir Vale, Skull City, etc.) they could really flesh out that region... then maybe in a couple years after they've fleshed out more regions they could give us a full campaign setting guide to it.
I suppose one of my biggest issues with the current prime world is the lack of story-continuity. As an example, the Elsir Vale (from the Scales of War adventure path) was first introduced in the 3e adventure The Red Hand of Doom. Toward the beginning of that adventure was a sidebar explaining that the Elsir Vale was its own seperate location that did not take place in any of the other established settings (Greyhawk, FR, etc.). However, it's also been stated that the Tomb of Horrors and the Temple of Elemental Evil exist in the new core setting despite the fact that they are both very important locatins in the Greyhawk setting. The new core setting location Skull City (would does sound very cool, don't get me wrong) even sits above the Tomb of Horrors.
That just doesn't sit very well with me. Maybe it's the fact that I grew up as a comic book fan and have a small hatred for writers who don't stick to established continuity.
I mean, it's always possible that the new core setting is in fact Oerth after some great cataclysm and thousands of years of new empires rising and falling (and that the Elsir Vale is just being folded into the new "curent day" of Oerth), but if that's the case I just want them to make it make sense, you know? I hate the ambiguity involved.
Barovia was the first location, with it based on Transylvania. Strahd was a relation of one of the PCs, distantly (it turns out ancestor, as he's a vampire). Anyway, the PCs were all members of a royal entourage trying to get his military help for their civil war in basically Arthurian England.
Later the PCs were to go to Darkon, which I was re-doing to be like old Russia: Czar Azalin (az-AHl-in). Big round hats, snow, the Kargatan were going to be dressed like Kossaks (well, his special bodyguard, who also have that spy division).
anyway, the idea of having them be locations in the prime material plane was better for me than having a jigsaw of domains that all the players new were Ravenloft (wink wink) but that we were passing off as not really Ravenloft to their PCs. Kinda silly in my mind, in fact, and thoroughly missing the point of Gothic Horror.
I mean, that's what they *used* to be, locations that your campaign goes into to explore stories like Dracula and Frankenstein (or Adam, in this case) and have mood and such kick in. The original Castle Ravenloft was a Side Trek that just took off. The individual modules were cool also.
Feast of Goblyns is one of my all-time favourites (however the ending is terrible; if you run it, change the last encounter. Also, the skeletons swinging from chains; that cave section could easily be redone. The rest is solid gold).
So having it in the Shadowfell is no big deal. I'd prefer to have them separate in general.
Also: No PoL setting, please. I prefer just having modules to drop together. Greyhawk *never* had a setting book proper that I know of. IIRC (and I don't know much about it, admittedly) it was just the backstories of the villains and the assumed site of some many modules that did it. FR was where all the sourcebooks were from. Oerth just got mentioned a lot and people could put together the pieces.
If I'd known about a book, at least for 3e, I'd have bought it. I've never seen one in a gaming store or online, and none of the Greyhawk RPGA fans I've known are aware of any such beastie.
I would love to see Wizards bring ravenloft into 4E; and not just by having fragments of it in their less than stellar points of light setting. I want old school ravenloft.
I like that the concept for Ravenloft, the so-called 'Domains of Dread', has been folded into the core of 4e.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a full-fledged Ravenloft campaign setting (one day). Until then, the articles and snippit that have popped up in Dragon and in sourebooks (like Manual of the Planes) are nice to have.
I didn't see it mentioned already: Check out Dragon #368 for an excellent Domains of Dread article: Sunderheart, the Funeral City (by Mathew Sernett). It's a dark tale of star-crossed lovers-- with a sickening twist ;).
If I'd known about a book, at least for 3e, I'd have bought it. I've never seen one in a gaming store or online, and none of the Greyhawk RPGA fans I've known are aware of any such beastie.
There was... In the early days of 3.0, there was a (paperback) "Living Greyhawk" Campaign setting released which detailed Oerth in considerable detail.... This sourcebook was one of the first (if not the first) splatbook released for 3.0, and was released before/around the time of the paperback warrior splatbook (forget its name).
I wonder if I still have it, or whether I got rid of it when I let go of most of my old 3.0 stuff.
This is good for the weekend in hell type of adventure, bad for those that like a cohesive setting. Plus I feel a majority of the old core domains may fall by the wayside, especially those whose time period is more recent than the renaissance.
Bel
As per official canon, upon Lord Soths final release, he was transported by the mists to the very time/place the mists plucked him from, so as his absense would not be felt by anyone save himself.
Greyhawk *never* had a setting book proper that I know of. IIRC (and I don't know much about it, admittedly) it was just the backstories of the villains and the assumed site of some many modules that did it. FR was where all the sourcebooks were from. Oerth just got mentioned a lot and people could put together the pieces.
If I'd known about a book, at least for 3e, I'd have bought it. I've never seen one in a gaming store or online, and none of the Greyhawk RPGA fans I've known are aware of any such beastie.
You gotta be kidding me.
"World of Greyhawk" was the first published setting ever, back in the 1st edition days. It was even published twice (I still own the second, boxed, version).
For 2nd edition "Greyhawk Adventures" was published - more of a supplement to the previous work than a totally new book.
And for 3e, as glimeral says, there was the "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer". This was an update of the setting and the base document for the RPGAs Living Greyhawk campaign.
. until they can write better fluff on the issue then they have now, they kinda painted themselves into a corner.As for RPGA stuff, I do remember a brochure that came out as a conversion guide for 2e characters.
As for a complete setting: Understand this: if you just want a horror campaign, you cannot get it with Ravenloft as a setting. You can't get it with Vampire badguys, or ghouls, or werewolves, or Strahd Von Zarovich wrestling Azalin while the PCs search for Van Richten's manuscript in Castle Ravenloft's library. Those are set bits.
You will only get a horror campaign with mood. That you can do in PoL villages, depending on what you do to keep the PCs in character. That's a micro-level thing that Heroes of Horror could help you with; or reading the 2e setting books and using any monster stats from throughout the MM 4e.
After all, real monsters are just that: Monstrous.
A book in black and red with artistic monsters and gothic art: Mike Mignola comics.
A book on Ravenloft Domains the way you remember them: your old 2e books and the notes from that campaign (re-use or move forward with the old stuff).
An actually scary campaign: any system depending on how well the DM does it.
Whether the DoD are in the Shadowfell or the Ethereal Plane (it being a Demiplane, that's where it was), is immaterial. Even a Domain of Dread isn't scary. It's the game night and what the players experience that matters.
Thing of it is, there has never been the same amount of material for Greyhawk as there has been for FR or even Ravenloft.
Which was a good thing IMO. It's the main reason I used Greyhawk. I looked at the tsunami of FR supplements and said "yeah, my bank balance, campaign and sanity are all a lot better off without that stuff".
In other words, I applaud the current policy for campaign settings. :D
less is simply less. if one doesn't want to buy all the books one can simply... not buy the flipping books. :D
but thats not against the new 4.0, ive bought my fair share of books. just wish i had more.
Ravenloft is one of the things which made my wife want to play D&D. Yes, marital bliss was formed on Ravenloft.
Now they have taken it away...
Please...if you are reading this Wizards of the Coast, please produce a Ravenloft Sourcebook...or at least allow White Wolf Publishing to make one for you (as they did in the past).
PLEASE!!!
You do realise that Wizards owns White Wolf now right?
...what!? No they don't...
While I enjoy WoD from time to time, I did not bother to check the veracity of their claims as both companies produce high quality content, and as such - I couldnt care less if one was subsidiary to the other.
After a quick wiki search - I was unable to verify these claims (or ones regarding wizards buying out Necromancer Games), so they are probably nothing more than rumor.