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Draconomicon

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
thenewblack
Nov 14, 2008 12:14:47 Don't get me wrong I love Dragons as much as any fantasy geek, but is there REALLY another need for a new Draconomicon? I know they're having a few new dragons, but for most of the book it's mostly fluff, and you can only really recycle that fluff so much.

Just my 2 cents
#2
ultimatecalibur
Nov 14, 2008 12:28:37 From the previews I've seen it looks to be a pretty crunch heavy book. This is what I remember as being confirmed included:
Brown Dragons - Formerly known as Sand Dragons
Purple Dragons - I think they were formerly known as Deep Dragons (they deal psychic damage and are harmed by light)
At least one new Dracolich and several other types of undead dragons
Rules for dragon hoards
Rules for hoard based traps and hazards
#3
wizardmon
Nov 14, 2008 12:49:16 Judging by the art gallery, there are actually a LOT more than just plain "Chromatic" dragons, but also includes Planar dragons based on Chromatics.

Lots of dragon themed monsters, judging by the pictures, and new magic items I think too. That one pic of a character stealing the heart of a dead dragon looks promising as far as possibly having rules for making stuff out of dragon body parts! :D
#4
thenewblack
Nov 14, 2008 13:21:12 Well if there is a chapter on Dragon Taxidermy that would indeed be pretty cool =)
#5
Luis_Carlos
Nov 14, 2008 13:51:56 Don´t worry. We will see Draconomicon II.
#6
ranadiel
Nov 14, 2008 14:30:44 There are 38 new monsters as a minimum, plus the four main age categories for the three new dragons. Thus bringing the total up to 50 new monsters as a minimum. Including in those 50 new monsters is Tiamet. I think that having our first diety stat blocks makes this book more then neccesary before we go adding in the 49 other monsters and likely well over 100 pages of fluff to go with the PoL setting.
#7
Grazel
Nov 14, 2008 15:00:08 From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds.

From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters.

With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff.
#8
doctorhook
Nov 14, 2008 15:22:06
From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds.

From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters.

With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff.

I've heard people say it's going to be fluff-heavy, and other say it'll be crunch-heavy. You didn't consider 3.5E's Draconomicon crunch-heavy? Really? I did. IMO, it had tons of awesome crunch and loads of inspiring fluff.

At any rate, either way, if it's at all like 2003's Draconomicon, it's going to be a great book!
#9
ranadiel
Nov 14, 2008 16:13:18
From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds.

From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters.

With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff.

It is a DM book, so I wouldn't count on there being any Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies. Also it is 7 famous dragons, not 3.
#10
captainswift
Nov 14, 2008 17:11:56 We got it in at work already. It's both crunch- and fluff- heavy; the fluffiest 4e book to date, and it does not disappoint on that front. No PPs or EDs, but a handful of rituals. hatchlings for all 8 dragon types listed. New drakes, many new planar dragons and undead dragons. Faerie dragons! Several detailed lairs, a few pages of ideas for non-magical treasure items. It's quite awesome, actually.
#11
Nyronus
Nov 14, 2008 22:14:35
We got it in at work already. It's both crunch- and fluff- heavy; the fluffiest 4e book to date, and it does not disappoint on that front. No PPs or EDs, but a handful of rituals. hatchlings for all 8 dragon types listed. New drakes, many new planar dragons and undead dragons. Faerie dragons! Several detailed lairs, a few pages of ideas for non-magical treasure items. It's quite awesome, actually.

Is there stats for Tiamat?
#12
serphet
Nov 14, 2008 22:20:22 this looks like the greatest DM supplement yet! (though its only the second, FRCG being first) I can't wait for planar exerpts though :/
#13
viktor_von_doom
Nov 14, 2008 22:36:20
Is there stats for Tiamat?

Yes. And man is she scary, each head gets its own turn and has thier own powers.
#14
captainswift
Nov 14, 2008 22:52:52
Yes. And man is she scary, each head gets its own turn and has thier own powers.

Also, Tiamat's entry has a quick summary of how deities are treated. Can't be harmed at all, by non-Epic characters, saving throws for all continuing effects, whether the effect allows it or not, and some bit I'm not sure I like that declares them "Defeated" at their bloodied value, where they dissipate and return to their homeplane.

She's a level 35 solo.
#15
stogoe
Nov 15, 2008 8:15:18
Also, Tiamat's entry has a quick summary of how deities are treated. Can't be harmed at all, by non-Epic characters, saving throws for all continuing effects, whether the effect allows it or not, and some bit I'm not sure I like that declares them "Defeated" at their bloodied value, where they dissipate and return to their homeplane.

She's a level 35 solo.

I actually appreciate the 'Defeated' idea. You should be able to defeat a god in high epic, but killing one outright? That's something that should be the purview of a DM's story and not of rules.
#16
ultimatecalibur
Nov 15, 2008 14:39:24 It also opens up the space for a ritual that suppresses that ability.
#17
doctorhook
Nov 15, 2008 15:50:28
It also opens up the space for a ritual that suppresses that ability.

Good thinking!
#18
zeratulcraft
Nov 15, 2008 16:23:47 Also the idea that you have to fight the deity on their home plane to truly kill them.
#19
doctorhook
Nov 15, 2008 19:47:39
Also the idea that you have to fight the deity on their home plane to truly kill them.

Tiamat => First Layer of the Nine Hells. :P
#20
Shroomy
Nov 15, 2008 20:10:49
Tiamat => First Layer of the Nine Hells. :P

Not anymore, at least in 4e.

Does a half-dragon or half-dragon template appear in the book?
#21
captainswift
Nov 16, 2008 0:19:46
I actually appreciate the 'Defeated' idea. You should be able to defeat a god in high epic, but killing one outright? That's something that should be the purview of a DM's story and not of rules.

True, but I think I'd have made the "defeated" condition be at their full total, not their bloodied total. "Killing" them doesn't kill them, as it were. But it's going to be a very long time before anybody in my games will fight Tiamat, so it might grow on me by then.
#22
Dreamstryder
Nov 16, 2008 1:42:36 The fluff excerpts read too much like an uninspired campaign setting to me. Who wants to hear the stale "good god vs evil god and they split into a million pieces" tripe for the 10,000th time? And I don't know why I'd want to hear of famous D&D dragons if the blurbs don't have cool ideas I can harvest. I did fancy the sentence about dragons erupting from volcanoes and soaring upon gales. But enough of the black dragon's tongue.

I was interested in the dramatically done purple dragon encounter, the art, draconic alphabet, the hoard description table (tho' I already have the edition-universal 3e one), and who can argue with new dragons, especially the readily playable 4e ones?
#23
doctorhook
Nov 16, 2008 10:35:37
Not anymore, at least in 4e.

...

(I knew that. It was a joke, Shroomy...)

I'm not very funny, I guess.
#24
Dreamstryder
Nov 19, 2008 14:11:07 Oh, that would be a killer encounter tho', especially if they can alter their home plane's shape as will/encounter powers.
#25
tufrat
Nov 21, 2008 20:14:57 I have the book and its not as crunchy as I would have liked...
The first 42 pages are all fluff on needless junk like anatomy and psychology.

Farther into the book: do we need 15 pages on hoard design? Really?

That said, the rest of the book has some great stuff.
#26
serphet
Nov 21, 2008 23:25:11
I have the book and its not as crunchy as I would have liked...
The first 42 pages are all fluff on needless junk like anatomy and psychology.

Farther into the book: do we need 15 pages on hoard design? Really?

That said, the rest of the book has some great stuff.

honestly the hoard design stuff was great IMO, I always wondered exactly how to craft hoarrds, as opposed to saying "that pile of junk over there". The anatomy stuff was interesting as well. I can only see that in role playing a dragon from the DM side; so having this deeper understanding about chromatics is very useful. I Didn't expect this book to be crunchy and am very happy with the result, expect open grave to be VERY similar.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thenewblack Nov 14, 2008 12:14:47	Don't get me wrong I love Dragons as much as any fantasy geek, but is there REALLY another need for a new Draconomicon? I know they're having a few new dragons, but for most of the book it's mostly fluff, and you can only really recycle that fluff so much. Just my 2 cents
#2 ultimatecalibur Nov 14, 2008 12:28:37	From the previews I've seen it looks to be a pretty crunch heavy book. This is what I remember as being confirmed included: Brown Dragons - Formerly known as Sand Dragons Purple Dragons - I think they were formerly known as Deep Dragons (they deal psychic damage and are harmed by light) At least one new Dracolich and several other types of undead dragons Rules for dragon hoards Rules for hoard based traps and hazards
#3 wizardmon Nov 14, 2008 12:49:16	Judging by the art gallery, there are actually a LOT more than just plain "Chromatic" dragons, but also includes Planar dragons based on Chromatics. Lots of dragon themed monsters, judging by the pictures, and new magic items I think too. That one pic of a character stealing the heart of a dead dragon looks promising as far as possibly having rules for making stuff out of dragon body parts! :D
#4 thenewblack Nov 14, 2008 13:21:12	Well if there is a chapter on Dragon Taxidermy that would indeed be pretty cool =)
#5 Luis_Carlos Nov 14, 2008 13:51:56	Don´t worry. We will see Draconomicon II.
#6 ranadiel Nov 14, 2008 14:30:44	There are 38 new monsters as a minimum, plus the four main age categories for the three new dragons. Thus bringing the total up to 50 new monsters as a minimum. Including in those 50 new monsters is Tiamet. I think that having our first diety stat blocks makes this book more then neccesary before we go adding in the 49 other monsters and likely well over 100 pages of fluff to go with the PoL setting.
#7 Grazel Nov 14, 2008 15:00:08	From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds. From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters. With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff.
#8 doctorhook Nov 14, 2008 15:22:06	From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds. From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters. With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff. I've heard people say it's going to be fluff-heavy, and other say it'll be crunch-heavy. You didn't consider 3.5E's Draconomicon crunch-heavy? Really? I did. IMO, it had tons of awesome crunch and loads of inspiring fluff. At any rate, either way, if it's at all like 2003's Draconomicon, it's going to be a great book!
#9 ranadiel Nov 14, 2008 16:13:18	From the excerpts we've seen this book will be a lot more crunch-heavy than the 3.x Draconomicon. It fleshes out the chromatics we got in the MM, adds 3 new chromatics, at least 1 planar dragon based off of white dragons, Tiamat and 2 other 'famous' dragons, a couple dracoliches, and new kobolds. From other information we've been told there will be new magic items, traps, hazards, and other monsters than what is listed. We may even see some new paragon paths and an epic destiny or two based around dragons. Also we should see information on designing hoards and lairs, and some sample dragon encounters. With over 226 pages (based on the excerpts) we should be getting a lot of new stuff. It is a DM book, so I wouldn't count on there being any Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies. Also it is 7 famous dragons, not 3.
#10 captainswift Nov 14, 2008 17:11:56	We got it in at work already. It's both crunch- and fluff- heavy; the fluffiest 4e book to date, and it does not disappoint on that front. No PPs or EDs, but a handful of rituals. hatchlings for all 8 dragon types listed. New drakes, many new planar dragons and undead dragons. Faerie dragons! Several detailed lairs, a few pages of ideas for non-magical treasure items. It's quite awesome, actually.
#11 Nyronus Nov 14, 2008 22:14:35	We got it in at work already. It's both crunch- and fluff- heavy; the fluffiest 4e book to date, and it does not disappoint on that front. No PPs or EDs, but a handful of rituals. hatchlings for all 8 dragon types listed. New drakes, many new planar dragons and undead dragons. Faerie dragons! Several detailed lairs, a few pages of ideas for non-magical treasure items. It's quite awesome, actually. Is there stats for Tiamat?
#12 serphet Nov 14, 2008 22:20:22	this looks like the greatest DM supplement yet! (though its only the second, FRCG being first) I can't wait for planar exerpts though :/
#13 viktor_von_doom Nov 14, 2008 22:36:20	Is there stats for Tiamat? Yes. And man is she scary, each head gets its own turn and has thier own powers.
#14 captainswift Nov 14, 2008 22:52:52	Yes. And man is she scary, each head gets its own turn and has thier own powers. Also, Tiamat's entry has a quick summary of how deities are treated. Can't be harmed at all, by non-Epic characters, saving throws for all continuing effects, whether the effect allows it or not, and some bit I'm not sure I like that declares them "Defeated" at their bloodied value, where they dissipate and return to their homeplane. She's a level 35 solo.
#15 stogoe Nov 15, 2008 8:15:18	Also, Tiamat's entry has a quick summary of how deities are treated. Can't be harmed at all, by non-Epic characters, saving throws for all continuing effects, whether the effect allows it or not, and some bit I'm not sure I like that declares them "Defeated" at their bloodied value, where they dissipate and return to their homeplane. She's a level 35 solo. I actually appreciate the 'Defeated' idea. You should be able to defeat a god in high epic, but killing one outright? That's something that should be the purview of a DM's story and not of rules.
#16 ultimatecalibur Nov 15, 2008 14:39:24	It also opens up the space for a ritual that suppresses that ability.
#17 doctorhook Nov 15, 2008 15:50:28	It also opens up the space for a ritual that suppresses that ability. Good thinking!
#18 zeratulcraft Nov 15, 2008 16:23:47	Also the idea that you have to fight the deity on their home plane to truly kill them.
#19 doctorhook Nov 15, 2008 19:47:39	Also the idea that you have to fight the deity on their home plane to truly kill them. Tiamat => First Layer of the Nine Hells. :P
#20 Shroomy Nov 15, 2008 20:10:49	Tiamat => First Layer of the Nine Hells. :P Not anymore, at least in 4e. Does a half-dragon or half-dragon template appear in the book?
#21 captainswift Nov 16, 2008 0:19:46	I actually appreciate the 'Defeated' idea. You should be able to defeat a god in high epic, but killing one outright? That's something that should be the purview of a DM's story and not of rules. True, but I think I'd have made the "defeated" condition be at their full total, not their bloodied total. "Killing" them doesn't kill them, as it were. But it's going to be a very long time before anybody in my games will fight Tiamat, so it might grow on me by then.
#22 Dreamstryder Nov 16, 2008 1:42:36	The fluff excerpts read too much like an uninspired campaign setting to me. Who wants to hear the stale "good god vs evil god and they split into a million pieces" tripe for the 10,000th time? And I don't know why I'd want to hear of famous D&D dragons if the blurbs don't have cool ideas I can harvest. I did fancy the sentence about dragons erupting from volcanoes and soaring upon gales. But enough of the black dragon's tongue. I was interested in the dramatically done purple dragon encounter, the art, draconic alphabet, the hoard description table (tho' I already have the edition-universal 3e one), and who can argue with new dragons, especially the readily playable 4e ones?
#23 doctorhook Nov 16, 2008 10:35:37	Not anymore, at least in 4e. ... (I knew that. It was a joke, Shroomy...) I'm not very funny, I guess.
#24 Dreamstryder Nov 19, 2008 14:11:07	Oh, that would be a killer encounter tho', especially if they can alter their home plane's shape as will/encounter powers.
#25 tufrat Nov 21, 2008 20:14:57	I have the book and its not as crunchy as I would have liked... The first 42 pages are all fluff on needless junk like anatomy and psychology. Farther into the book: do we need 15 pages on hoard design? Really? That said, the rest of the book has some great stuff.
#26 serphet Nov 21, 2008 23:25:11	I have the book and its not as crunchy as I would have liked... The first 42 pages are all fluff on needless junk like anatomy and psychology. Farther into the book: do we need 15 pages on hoard design? Really? That said, the rest of the book has some great stuff. honestly the hoard design stuff was great IMO, I always wondered exactly how to craft hoarrds, as opposed to saying "that pile of junk over there". The anatomy stuff was interesting as well. I can only see that in role playing a dragon from the DM side; so having this deeper understanding about chromatics is very useful. I Didn't expect this book to be crunchy and am very happy with the result, expect open grave to be VERY similar.