Any other knowledge, thoughts or hopes are welcome.
It's not a very bad book, but I don't think it got me excited enough to buy anymore products of this type in the future.
I have it, it's pretty disappointing actually. Makes the dragonborn into one trick ponies, and how many OMG BAHAMUT PLATINUM DUDE paragon paths do we need?
It's not a very bad book, but I don't think it got me excited enough to buy anymore products of this type in the future.
I really liked it. I felt the level of fluff versus the level of crunch was perfect for this sort of book, and it got me into the mindset and culture behind the PoL Dragonborn a lot better.
I don't see this OMG BAHAMUT PLATINUM DUDE taking up all the PPaths. It's in the Divine section, for good reason. But there's plenty of crunch and fluff in the book NOT emphasising Bahamut.
Besides, Bahamut is a popular deity, which is difficult to accomplish for a LG one.
I have it, it's pretty disappointing actually. Makes the dragonborn into one trick ponies, and how many OMG BAHAMUT PLATINUM DUDE paragon paths do we need?
It's not a very bad book, but I don't think it got me excited enough to buy anymore products of this type in the future.
I really liked it. I felt the level of fluff versus the level of crunch was perfect for this sort of book, and it got me into the mindset and culture behind the PoL Dragonborn a lot better.
I don't see this OMG BAHAMUT PLATINUM DUDE taking up all the PPaths. It's in the Divine section, for good reason. But there's plenty of crunch and fluff in the book NOT emphasising Bahamut.
Besides, Bahamut is a popular deity, which is difficult to accomplish for a LG one.
There's platinum dude paragonpaths elsewhere, there's one for the warlord even.
No wings for sub-paragon Dragonborn.
I'v not gotten the dragonborn book yet, (no money for it) but I plan to get it on monday. I got the dragonborn handbook by goodman games and found it useful and entertaining. So I look forward to the wotc handbook. I could have gotten it, but the underdark book was calling to me and I do not regret my choice. I believe the underdark book is AWESOME! Very fluffy, some very cool new monsters and even a write up on Torog. And for once, a great amount of artwork! The artwork on torog is wicked. The info on the different areas and inhabitance is also very useful for me.
Wotc, You done good with the Underdark book. I'm very happy.
The new epic destiny from the book grants flight with hover.
Mind giving a roundabout number for when they get hover? My copy isn't in until next weekend, so I'm stuck here out of the loop...
Pretty please, with Rage Drakes on top.
I think the primal PP also gives the dragonborn wings.
Three of these race books gives you 96 pages of material for the same price you could buy martial power 2 (160 pages, 5.33 pages per dollar)
35 bucks can get you the DMG2 with 224 pages (6.4 pages per dollar)
The irony is that it is being marketed with the idea that people are more willing to spend 10 dollars than 30 in this economy. Yet, those who are trying to save are actually buying so much less for their money.
Is anybody besides me disturbed by the price tag vs page count? 10 bucks for 32 pages. 3.2 pages per dollar.
Three of these race books gives you 96 pages of material for the same price you could buy martial power 2 (160 pages, 5.33 pages per dollar)
35 bucks can get you the DMG2 with 224 pages (6.4 pages per dollar)
The irony is that it is being marketed with the idea that people are more willing to spend 10 dollars than 30 in this economy. Yet, those who are trying to save are actually buying so much less for their money.
You forget about the rule of three for the price of two. As you increase in quantity, you can't keep the same price per unit. We're getting a DISCOUNT on MP2 from the price for PH Races – Dragonborn. The fewer the pages, the higher they can afford to put the relative cost at.
It's fine. It's more expensive than 32 pages of DMG2 or MP2 material, but would you really buy JUST 32 pages of those books? No. You wouldn't. This is 32 pages of material that will interest players playing Dragonborn, as well as an occassional DM or interested player (or collector).
It's worth the difference in price, anyways, because the fluff is top-notch, and far superior to what they were producing two years ago. I finally understand the Dragonborn mentality now. And the backgrounds and PPaths, and especially feats are good too.
I actually got something nice, for 10 bucks, that will last. Thats rare these days. I also enjoy the book quite a bit.
I'll purchase all the racial handbooks. I'd enjoy one for humans also. I'm finally about to start my first 4e human character (warwizard) and I'm excited about it. The additional at-will, trained skill and feat is a really cool feature of the race. I'd enjoy more PP's and ED's focused towards humans along with fluff on PoL human cultures.
Lucky you, Human racial book in December!
Humans only in december. I want them in a short schedule!
And I want to see something for elves too. The Dusk Elves article was horrible, and the feats... no one will ever take one of that. Elves aren't getting good support =/
I'm glad they're doing PH Races – Humans, because I really don't have a feel for the Human race in D&D, mostly because they feel like The Mario and all the races feel like an aspect of humanity, seeing as we can only understand our own human psyches, so each race, even if they're as alien to humans as Thri-kreen, still bear some human aspects.
So I'm excited to learn more about how to carve out a niche for humans. the Winning Races article helped a bit.
I noticed that the first three books each emphasise one of the three most recent empires. This is surely intentional, because there's a lot of history for these three races to draw on.
I'm glad they're doing PH Races – Humans, because I really don't have a feel for the Human race in D&D, mostly because they feel like The Mario and all the races feel like an aspect of humanity, seeing as we can only understand our own human psyches, so each race, even if they're as alien to humans as Thri-kreen, still bear some human aspects.
So I'm excited to learn more about how to carve out a niche for humans. the Winning Races article helped a bit.
If you have it, I would reccomend (re)reading the human entry from Races and Classes(I hope I got that book name right). As I recall it does a good job of explaining the role of humans in 4ed and it might help give you a better grasp on humans until the PH Races- Humans book comes out.
I noticed that the first three books each emphasise one of the three most recent empires. This is surely intentional, because there's a lot of history for these three races to draw on.
I'm glad they're doing PH Races – Humans, because I really don't have a feel for the Human race in D&D, mostly because they feel like The Mario and all the races feel like an aspect of humanity, seeing as we can only understand our own human psyches, so each race, even if they're as alien to humans as Thri-kreen, still bear some human aspects.
So I'm excited to learn more about how to carve out a niche for humans. the Winning Races article helped a bit.
If you have it, I would reccomend (re)reading the human entry from Races and Classes(I hope I got that book name right). As I recall it does a good job of explaining the role of humans in 4ed and it might help give you a better grasp on humans until the PH Races- Humans book comes out.
Unfortunately, I never got my hands on that one. I gather it says pretty much a succinct version of what I've gathered from a multitude of 4e sources on them, but an all-in-one place version is much preferred.
Unfortunately, I never got my hands on that one. I gather it says pretty much a succinct version of what I've gathered from a multitude of 4e sources on them, but an all-in-one place version is much preferred.
You should try and track that one down. It's actually a pretty awesome insight into 4E. One of my favorite books.
I noticed that the first three books each emphasise one of the three most recent empires. This is surely intentional, because there's a lot of history for these three races to draw on.
I'm glad they're doing PH Races – Humans, because I really don't have a feel for the Human race in D&D, mostly because they feel like The Mario and all the races feel like an aspect of humanity, seeing as we can only understand our own human psyches, so each race, even if they're as alien to humans as Thri-kreen, still bear some human aspects.
So I'm excited to learn more about how to carve out a niche for humans. the Winning Races article helped a bit.
I think they're releasing them slowly at first to see how/if they sell. If dragonborn does better than expected, I will bet we'll see a new one every second month next year, which will finish off the PHB1 races, and then the next year we'll see the PHB2 races, and setting races... some might be combined in like 64 page books though (Forgotten Realms Races: Genasi and Drow, Eberron Races: Warforged, Changeling and Kalashtar, Dark Sun Races: Mul and Thri-Keen, etc)
I think they're releasing them slowly at first to see how/if they sell. If dragonborn does better than expected, I will bet we'll see a new one every second month next year, which will finish off the PHB1 races, and then the next year we'll see the PHB2 races, and setting races... some might be combined in like 64 page books though (Forgotten Realms Races: Genasi and Drow, Eberron Races: Warforged, Changeling and Kalashtar, Dark Sun Races: Mul and Thri-Keen, etc)
I think I would prefer a hardcover Player's Handbook Races that covered all of the PHB1, Races of Eberron, Races of Faerun, Player's Handbook 2 Races, etc. The hardcover, broad-topic model most interests me. If I wasn't a collector, I would skip 75% of these supplements because the races don't interest me. However, if they were covered in the same book as races that I do like, I would be more apt to give them a perusal and perhaps broaden my horizon.
I think they're releasing them slowly at first to see how/if they sell. If dragonborn does better than expected, I will bet we'll see a new one every second month next year, which will finish off the PHB1 races, and then the next year we'll see the PHB2 races, and setting races... some might be combined in like 64 page books though (Forgotten Realms Races: Genasi and Drow, Eberron Races: Warforged, Changeling and Kalashtar, Dark Sun Races: Mul and Thri-Keen, etc)
I think I would prefer a hardcover Player's Handbook Races that covered all of the PHB1, Races of Eberron, Races of Faerun, Player's Handbook 2 Races, etc. The hardcover, broad-topic model most interests me. If I wasn't a collector, I would skip 75% of these supplements because the races don't interest me. However, if they were covered in the same book as races that I do like, I would be more apt to give them a perusal and perhaps broaden my horizon.
I agree with the sentiments of this, I would be more likely to buy one big hardcover too, but the point of this line is to have inexpensive books on the shelves as impulse buys for players who might have stopped by a gaming shop to buy dice, or pick up a new player's handbook or something... and hey look its only :tenbux: I might as well get that too, I play an X every once and a while.
I agree with the sentiments of this, I would be more likely to buy one big hardcover too, but the point of this line is to have inexpensive books on the shelves as impulse buys for players who might have stopped by a gaming shop to buy dice, or pick up a new player's handbook or something... and hey look its only :tenbux: I might as well get that too, I play an X every once and a while.
I like it as is. If it's simply a matter of having all the information, sure, go for the big book. But these books are more for the players. 'I don't play a tiefling, or a human, or a halfling, why should I pay 40 dollars for a book on all of them when I can just pay 10 for the Dragonborn stuff?'
The books are for an individual player, not a group, not a DM who has to worry about a half-dozen players each of a different race, it's for individuals, and it allows you to pay for ONLY the content you intend to use, a rarity in DnD books.
See I wasn't bothered by all the focus on the Breath Weapon. I mean this is a 32 pg consice book, that empishized a point of the Dragonborn. If this had been as large as the Goodman Games Dragonborn book, and had a huge focus on breath instead of exploring different aspects of Dragonborn then yeah problems abound.
I expect that all the books will focus really on one aspect of each of the races then anything else. And with 32 pg impluse buy I'm cool with that.
I imagine each of the books in this series will have a similar focus on feats that relate to the race's encounter ability (excluding humans and half-elves, of course). It's an easy way to expand the options for a given race without getting A) into stacked-to-hell broken territory, and B) complaints about feats that ostensibly could (should?) be feats open to any character (IIRC, things like Draconic Arrogance and Brutal Teamwork have been mentioned quite a few times as examples of this).
I expect the Half-Elf one to give a lot of fun modifications to Dilettante.
I would have like a feat like 'Once per encounter when you are bloodied and spent a healing surge you are treated as bloodied until the end of your next turn for all effect regardless of your actual HP total' so you can keep your bonus to attack rolls going just a little longer without being on the verge of collapse.
I expect the Half-Elf one to give a lot of fun modifications to Dilettante.
...agreed, something like:
psichic class: augmentable dilettante, psichic dilettante power become augmentable like other psichic powers
arcane class: quick cast dilettante, use dilettante as a minor action
martial: dilettante get the weapon keyword, so to boost it with the proficiency bonus
divine: when you use dilettante, apply all situational bonus as you used a channel divinity power (but still you don't expend your channel divinity)
primal: change attack and damage stat of your dilettante power to your main stat
regain use of your dilettante power when you use your second wind or action point
get a second dilettante power from an other class
if your class share the same power source of your dilettante power, get bonuses
get bonuses if you channel an arcane dilettante through a: globe, tome, wand, staff, rod, weapon as implement
get proficiency with the implements and a skill training of your dilettante's class
feat for becoming a half-drow: get darkfire/... instead of dilettante, maybe skil bonus, but retain the rest
feat for becoming a half-eladrin: get teleport instead of dilettante, maybe skill bonus, but retain the rest
bigger group bonuses
martial: dilettante get the weapon keyword, so to boost it with the proficiency bonus
Say what now? That already happens by default. Powers you copy with Dilletante don't just loose all their keywords!
martial: dilettante get the weapon keyword, so to boost it with the proficiency bonus
Say what now? That already happens by default. Powers you copy with Dilletante don't just loose all their keywords!
However there Is a Martial Dilettante feat, and it's in MP2, and is crazy awesome. It's that you can use your Dilettante twice per encounter, rather than once.
I would hope that Half-Eladrin and Half-Drow wouldn't replace Dilettante, but instead would replace Dual Heritage's line about Elf feats with Eladrin or Drow feats. Note that mechanically then, Half-Drow would become more popular, because they have the fewest of their feats based off of the Lolthtouched powers. Eladrin have at least one, though (Feyborn Charm), which is extremely useful for various Cha-based classes that Half-Elves like to use (Quick Battlemind, Cunning Bard, Enlightened Ardent, etc).
martial: dilettante get the weapon keyword, so to boost it with the proficiency bonus
Say what now? That already happens by default. Powers you copy with Dilletante don't just loose all their keywords!
...you right, I just wrote it unclear:
I wanted say "a dilettante power without a weapon keyword, such an arcane blast, a divine ranged ray or whatelse, get the weapon keyword so a monk's melee touch become a weapon touch and a ranged magic missile become usable with a ranged weapon"
the idea was "make not-martial diletttante's a bit more martial-like making them usable with your standard weapons, meaning they became more precise because of the weapon proficiency" but I understand it could be a bit complicate for blasts and bursts and it's clearly a unbalancing than you became really broken powerplay if you at paragon level use your dilettante as a new at-will
so, closing this stupid idea, I would really like feats for giving a bit of martial / primal / divine / arcane / psi flavour to your dilettante power, concording with the power source of your class
Eladrin have at least one, though (Feyborn Charm), which is extremely useful for various Cha-based classes that Half-Elves like to use (Quick Battlemind, Cunning Bard, Enlightened Ardent, etc).
Feyborn Charm only works with Arcane powers. Eladrin Soldier, on the other hand, would be quite nice for the classes you mentioned.
Edit: I mean Arcane Charm powers. XD
Eladrin have at least one, though (Feyborn Charm), which is extremely useful for various Cha-based classes that Half-Elves like to use (Quick Battlemind, Cunning Bard, Enlightened Ardent, etc).
Feyborn Charm only works with Arcane powers. Eladrin Soldier, on the other hand, would be quite nice for the classes you mentioned.
Edit: I mean Arcane Charm powers. XD
Oh, you're right. I guess it's because I use it with my house-ruled Half-Eladrin (replace the word Elf in Dual Heritage with Eladrin) Cunning Bard, which uses a lot of Charms. I guess Illusionist Wizard Half-Elves would like it too, but they're not advantaged at that.
Still Dragonborns have other features no?
I would have like a feat like 'Once per encounter when you are bloodied and spent a healing surge you are treated as bloodied until the end of your next turn for all effect regardless of your actual HP total' so you can keep your bonus to attack rolls going just a little longer without being on the verge of collapse.
While they do have other features that could have been expanded on, or they could have used this book to explore Primal Dragonborn or Arcane Dragonborn, they choose to focus on what anyone that starts 4th ed knows about them. They are martial characters that have a breath weapon, and a pention for being Paladins, and that is what this book choose to address.
I expect that the teifling book is going to have alot of Warlock options/ideas.
The one thing that we are letting slip by though is the potential for Dragonborn II. WotC seems to be enjoying doing each book in a series format. So, I think after a round we just might see Dragonborn II with a slant towards the other power sources and abilities.
While they do have other features that could have been expanded on, or they could have used this book to explore Primal Dragonborn or Arcane Dragonborn, they choose to focus on what anyone that starts 4th ed knows about them. They are martial characters that have a breath weapon, and a pention for being Paladins, and that is what this book choose to address.
Did you seriously read the whole thing and come away with this impression? It sure isn't the impression I got, and the same goes for most of the people I've discussed the supplement with. (Of course, that's anecdotal, but I didn't hear a single person mention anything like your statement.)
I thought the book did a fair representation of each of the current 4 power sources.
Sure, the fluff before the power source chapters paints them as a martialy-pally race, but hey, thats their general culture. The power source sections give backgrounds and the like which build on the other parts of their race.
Now, there is alot of breath feats, but there are also a bunch of non-breath ones. And while I am not a big fan of taking alot of breath feats, there is another dragonborn player in my party who absolutely loves them.
I wonder if these race books is why Dragon has moved away from Ecology of X Race to their "Winning Races" for subspecies.
I guess what bugged me wasn't the lack of support for Primal Dragonborn characters, it was the line "Few dragonborn adopt primal classes, because both their fundamental nature and historical traditions of the race make them more inclined to use of other power sources" (Wyatt, 19).
I felt that that undermines what I think racial cultures should be about – integrating class builds the race is good at into the very culture of the race, so that it makes sense. After seeing all those Dragonborn Barbarian artworks, I truly thought that there would be more of a Primal Story to Dragonborn, one alongside Arkhosia's Martial and Divine traditions and Sorcerery.
While they do have other features that could have been expanded on, or they could have used this book to explore Primal Dragonborn or Arcane Dragonborn, they choose to focus on what anyone that starts 4th ed knows about them. They are martial characters that have a breath weapon, and a pention for being Paladins, and that is what this book choose to address.
Did you seriously read the whole thing and come away with this impression? It sure isn't the impression I got, and the same goes for most of the people I've discussed the supplement with. (Of course, that's anecdotal, but I didn't hear a single person mention anything like your statement.)
More or less it was the impression I got from the this book. Even the small bits going into the "Primal Dragonborn" was a push towards the Barbarian rather then a druid or shaman dragonborn. It's not a complaint I think that Dragonborn Barbarian's are quite fun to play and they fit the role nicely, but the book in my opinion did not stray very far from the martial tendencies of the dragonborn. I mean I'd love to see something that talks about how Dragonborn Wardens are different in their outlooks from Dwarven Wardens.
I still like this book, and I do hope there is a sequal or at least some online articles that go along with it and the series as a whole.