Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 universalsheep Feb 24, 2009 10:40:25	So I have always loved druids because they are hybrids (except wow druids, cus they wernt). So I'm diasspointed to see that wizards have defined them into a roll instead of creating a new hybrid role for them to be. Can anybody who has played them tell me how they are in 4.0? /waves goodbye to 3.5 druids
#2 salla Feb 24, 2009 10:50:33	Balanced, unlike 3rd edition's crazystupidbrokenness.
#3 Alex_ Feb 24, 2009 10:52:30	Druids in 4E can cast nature spells (including summons), transform into animals (and possibly more) to do various things, and can heal. What else could one ask of a Druid class? Yeah they have the Controller role, meaning the majority of their powers have the overarching theme of moving the enemy around and hindering their mobility and effectiveness indirectly, but trust me, they're not Wizards or Invokers. They can choose to stay in animal form all day, and duke it out alongside the Fighter and Ranger, or they can hang back with the Warlock and sling spells, or they can jump in and out of animal form, attacking in melee when they want to, before backing up and casting a few support spells. They remain a very flexible class.
#4 universalsheep Feb 24, 2009 11:02:31	Well what I think druids should be, and what wow did absolutely wrong, was when druids specialize it should be in 2+ things at once. Like in wow for example, they shouldnt have trees dedicated to 1 thing, that just makes them a role that they get to choose at lv 80 instead of creation, but it pigeon-holes them nonetheless. I don't know about the 4e druids yet, so they may have done this, but like heres how I see my druid. Turn into a bear and charge an enemy. Tosses a few heals on himself while in form as he keeps the enemy focused on him, when this enemy dies he turns into a tiger and goes to help assault an enemy that somebody else is tankin. Then he sees a few more mobs come to join in so he reverts back to human form to drop a layer of thorns in there route. Tosses up another heal on the tank then goes back to bear form to pick up a new mob. Basically he should be able to do everything, just not as well or advanced as the parent classes can. Like mabey his striker powers dont have as many secondary effects, or leader powers are more target restictive, and his controller powers dont deal as much damage with there primary focus.
#5 salla Feb 24, 2009 11:06:24	Mmm, no. The ability to do everything is what made the druid stupid broken in 3rd. They basically took the druid and broke it up into the Druid, the Shaman, and the Warden, because no class should be able to do that much.
#6 universalsheep Feb 24, 2009 11:24:40	No, the ability to do everything too good is what makes a hybrid overpowered. It just takes some tweaking to get it on par with other classes. I mean, you obviously don't like the idea of hybrids, and thats fine, go play a fighter, he does one thing and is great at it.
#7 Alex_ Feb 24, 2009 11:28:15	Well what I think druids should be, and what wow did absolutely wrong, was when druids specialize it should be in 2+ things at once. Like in wow for example, they shouldnt have trees dedicated to 1 thing, that just makes them a role that they get to choose at lv 80 instead of creation, but it pigeon-holes them nonetheless. I don't know about the 4e druids yet, so they may have done this, but like heres how I see my druid. Turn into a bear and charge an enemy. Tosses a few heals on himself while in form as he keeps the enemy focused on him, when this enemy dies he turns into a tiger and goes to help assault an enemy that somebody else is tankin. Then he sees a few more mobs come to join in so he reverts back to human form to drop a layer of thorns in there route. Tosses up another heal on the tank then goes back to bear form to pick up a new mob. WoW Druids can do this. I have one that's a mere level 55, and he does this kind of stuff all the time. Stay mostly in bear/cat form and only toss a Healing Touch or Entangling Roots every now and again. Basically he should be able to do everything, just not as well or advanced as the parent classes can. Like mabey his striker powers dont have as many secondary effects, or leader powers are more target restictive, and his controller powers dont deal as much damage with there primary focus. That would just leave a poor class. You're not good enough as controlling, not good enough at being a striker, not good enough at being a defender, and not good enough at being a leader. By focusing on Controller, and making everything else a secondary role, they can make you good at SOMETHING, while still allowing you to dabble in other roles- even though you'll never replace a dedicated Defender, Striker, or Leader. Being a controller doesn't mean a Druid is bad at melee. They're just good at being a Controller in melee (with a little Defender and Striker thrown in).
#8 salla Feb 24, 2009 11:28:23	No, the ability to do everything too good is what makes a hybrid overpowered. It just takes some tweaking to get it on par with other classes. I mean, you obviously don't like the idea of hybrids, and thats fine, go play a fighter, he does one thing and is great at it. If it does everything poorly, however, why would anybody play it?
#9 munchmausen1 Feb 24, 2009 11:33:15	The only way a truly hybrid class would work in the way 4e is designed is if they were explicitly created to fill the 5th slot in a party. Either they fill multiple roles as well as members of those classes specific to them (a class that can defend as well as a fighter and strike as well as a ranger is overpowered) or they are weaker at accomplishing each individual role to counteract it. In that scenario, while a group that needs a defender could pick a druid instead of a fighter, paladin, or swordmage, they have picked something that is explicitly less good at defending in lieu of doubling up on needs that are presumably covered.
#10 ranadiel Feb 24, 2009 11:35:52	No, the ability to do everything too good is what makes a hybrid overpowered. It just takes some tweaking to get it on par with other classes. I mean, you obviously don't like the idea of hybrids, and thats fine, go play a fighter, he does one thing and is great at it. Well R&D doesn't care for hybrids either. They tried to make the Druid one, and found that it didn't play well so they scrapped it.
#11 TheLoneCleric Feb 24, 2009 12:57:30	No, the ability to do everything too good is what makes a hybrid overpowered. It just takes some tweaking to get it on par with other classes. I mean, you obviously don't like the idea of hybrids, and thats fine, go play a fighter, he does one thing and is great at it. Oh geeze. Let see, unfounded statement to strawman, to veiled insult. Okay, your doing great so far. A hybrid is what most classes are these days in the game. If I was playing a "pure" fighter of yonder the only option I would have is to attack. No movement, no self heals, no special defensive stances, etc. In essence the 4 roles of 4th Edition are hybrids. They cover a number of tasks all at once in combat. The Fighter is a defender but a defender can: - Heal himself - Heal/buff others lightly - Push foes off his protected targets - Lock down 1 foes depending on build - Mitigate status effects - gain special effects depending on weapon/power choice - hit multiple foes with burst attacks and deliver damage output only 1 tier behind "pure" strikers. Just picking up a multi-class feat grants a whole new avenue to expand on your role or to add more roles. A hybrid Druid already has 2 viable builds based on wild shape options and ranged debuffs. They're hybrid enough.
#12 cadfan Feb 24, 2009 14:22:48	Actually, they're pretty hybrid. We've got a druid in our group. Her combat style involves opening with spells, shifting into a beast form and mauling a choice foe, and then slipping effortlessly out of melee and back out to range to blast some more with spells. They did lose two things: healing/buffing of party members, and melee combat without wildshape but with magical enhancement. The former was given to the shaman, and the latter was given to the warden. I don't know whether that will appeal to you, but that's how it is.
#13 universalsheep Feb 25, 2009 10:42:10	Ok, firstly, TY Cadfan, thats the kind of response I was looking for. Oh geeze. Let see, unfounded statement to strawman, to veiled insult. Okay, your doing great so far. Wow, thats good. You must be a philosophy major. So lets see, its not an unfounded statement, but the main basis on the power of a hybrid is his ability to perform multiple roles. I ask you then if my statement is incorrect, what then determines how powerful a hybrid is? I'm not even sure you know what a strawman fallacy is because your way off, nice attempt at appearing savvy though. And the last statement wasn't an insult unless you cant stand playing non-hybrids, but he obviously can or he wouldn't be refuting my thread, therefore it was but a statement. A hybrid is what most classes are these days in the game. If I was playing a "pure" fighter of yonder the only option I would have is to attack. No movement, no self heals, no special defensive stances, etc. When I say hybrid, I mean hybrid in relation to other classes. I assumed that was implied but if it wasn't then I have just clarified it. BTW, I'm pretty sure "pure" fighters always had the ability to move. In essence the 4 roles of 4th Edition are hybrids. They cover a number of tasks all at once in combat. The Fighter is a defender but a defender can: - Heal himself - Heal/buff others lightly - Push foes off his protected targets - Lock down 1 foes depending on build - Mitigate status effects - gain special effects depending on weapon/power choice - hit multiple foes with burst attacks and deliver damage output only 1 tier behind "pure" strikers. Ok the last 5 things on that list are defender qualities, so if a fighter has them, that doesnt make him a hybrid. So he can heal himself and others huh? Would you say he can do so to the point that you dont need a leader? because if he was a hybrid then he should be able too. Just picking up a multi-class feat grants a whole new avenue to expand on your role or to add more roles. A hybrid Druid already has 2 viable builds based on wild shape options and ranged debuffs. They're hybrid enough. Multiclass is not the same as hybrid.
#14 toshihito Feb 25, 2009 11:13:55	4E is based around characters having roles. All characters have a primary role, and all have a secondary role (sides maybe Ranger really). You should not be able to perform a secondary role better than a class that has that as a primary role. The classes are designed with these ideas. What you sound like is you want a character that excels at every role, making all the other classes meaningless. That's 3E. Do not confuse 'hybrid' and 'versatile'. Compared to the other controllers, a Druid's versatility is one of its shining features. Being able to attack in melee and at range is a very powerful ability. Go read pages 15 and 16 of the Players Handbook and then come back once you understand what it says.
#15 Cyber-Dave Feb 25, 2009 12:02:54	Every preview seen for druids makes them look just great as is. They are as hybrid as any class should be.