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Dual Power Sources?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nandvs_the_fanpire
Dec 25, 2009 19:28:01
Why not? To the 4.5 they may change the Mono Source to Dual Power Sources.
Here a few for some of the the exsisting classes:

PH1
Cleric: Divine
Figther: Martial
Paladin: Divine-Martial
Ranger: Martial-Primal
Rogue: Martial
Warlock: Arcane (maybe anothers depending of his pact, example: Dreadmind pact (Arcane-Psionic)
Wizard: Arcane

PH2
Avenger: Divine-Martial
Barbarian: Martial-Primal
Bard: Arcane
Druid: Primal
Invoker: Divine
Shaman: Primal
Sorcerer: Arcane (maybe anothers depending of his spell source, example: Elemental magic (Arcane-Elemental)
Warden: Primal (maybe anothers depending of his Guardian might, real example: Earthstrength Warden (Primal-Elemental)

PH3
Psion: Psionic
Monk: Ki-Martial
Ardent: Psionic
Seeker: Martial-Primal
Battlemind: Martial-Psionic

OTHERS:
Swordmage: Arcane-Martial
Artificer: Arcane
Assasin: Shadow

And maybe new old classes:
Spellthief: Arcane-Shadow (or psionic-shadow for the Powerthief)
Sohei: Ki-Martial
Ninja: Ki-Shadow
Samurai: Martial-Ki
Sugenja: Divine-Elemental
Divine Mind: Divine-Psionic
Soulknife: Ki-Psionic
Wilder: Primal-Psionic
Luker: Psionic-Shadow

It´s only a idea, but I think it´s good.

PD: Yes, I resurrected the Ki, because alone can´t be a good idea, but mixed with another PS can be a good power source.
PD2: Yes, I love the psionics.
#2
Stuntman
Dec 26, 2009 0:40:58 I know of one paragon path that spans two power sources (there may be more). I don't see any particular mechanical reason why you cannot have a class that draws power from two different power sources. Not sure if it fits the fluff with the power sources. It seems that existing classes can be refluffed to draw power from two power sources.

The reason why the do not do it this way may be to make accessory books easier to organise. Imagine if the paladin were both divine and martial. Now you have to get the Divine Power and Martial Power books to get more options for your paladin instead of just one power book. As a player, it is easier to just look in the PH1 and DP books for character options than in multiple power books.
#3
Marandahir
Dec 26, 2009 1:31:07
I know of one paragon path that spans two power sources (there may be more). I don't see any particular mechanical reason why you cannot have a class that draws power from two different power sources. Not sure if it fits the fluff with the power sources. It seems that existing classes can be refluffed to draw power from two power sources.

The reason why the do not do it this way may be to make accessory books easier to organise. Imagine if the paladin were both divine and martial. Now you have to get the Divine Power and Martial Power books to get more options for your paladin instead of just one power book. As a player, it is easier to just look in the PH1 and DP books for character options than in multiple power books.

I'm surprised you missed the main example of this – originally the Assassin was going to be a dual power source, as they said in a podcast right after it was released.

But the idea of dual power sources was scrapped, because it's a horrendous idea. Just because a build or class has a few similar concepts to another power source doesn't make it that power source. Just because something uses weapons doesn't make it martial – you need to reject all magical influence to be martial, and focus on the power of the bodily exploits and force of arms.

Chaos Sorcerers may FEEL elemental to you now, but we have no idea what the elemental power source is going to be about, besides a connection nominally with Elementals and/or the Elemental Chaos. Sorcerers in fact draw on the same thing as every other arcane class – a fundamental knowledge of the way the cosmic laws of magic works in the universe, though expressed through natural talent rather than tome-studying or tinkering or singing or whatnot.

Rangers should not be Primal. Part of what separates Barbarians, Seekers, and Rangers are the power-source deliniations. Seekers and Barbarians feel very much like the primal versions of Rangers, mystical hunters and warriors of the wilderness. Rangers don't invoke the primal spirits. They may be nature people, but they're not primal. Two-Blade Ranger has a Primal counterpart in Whirling Barbarian. Archer Ranger has a Primal counterpart in Vengeful Seeker. If you want the old, mystical Ranger from 3.5e that combined martial prowess with primal magic, you're in luck; it's called the Barbarian and the Seeker now.

What this really boils down to is that the classes may have some similarities, but that doesn't make them actually part of that source. Weapon-using doesn't make you Martial. Nature-oriented doesn't make you Primal. Energy-type keyword powers connected to the elements don't make you Elemental.

As said above, dual power sources make things way more complicated than they need to be, from both a business standpoint and from a player standpoint. Moreso, it serves to confuse the player – power sources provide definitions on why this class is different from classes of the same role. It provides an archetypal theme that can play and resonate between classes and against other classes, and when you start merging those themes, you get a muddled mess of not knowing what is going on.

Leave that to Hybridclassing and Multiclassing. Dual Power Sources are REALLY unnecessary, and actually work against the distillation process that 4e has taken D&D in.

Also, Word of God says no 4.5e. We're going straight from 4e to 5e, but that won't be for quite a while.
#4
LordArchaon
Dec 26, 2009 10:48:28 Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source.
#5
Marandahir
Dec 26, 2009 12:34:52
Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source.

Meh, Arcane is only crowded if you don't fully understand what they're trying to go at – power from manipulating cosmic energy in it's fundamental forms, whether through knowledge and studying of it, having a direct relationship with it in one's blood and soul, seeing it in the weave between tone and meter, understanding the unique power that occurs when blade and person are unified as one, or drawing it from OTHER figures that know how to manipulate it.

It really is the "Going to College" Power Source – which encompasses all the classes within it.

If you're going to study, do art, are just naturally talented at whatever you do, or have to cheat to keep up with the others, you're probably Arcane.
#6
lizardmage
Dec 26, 2009 13:26:48
Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source.

Meh, Arcane is only crowded if you don't fully understand what they're trying to go at – power from manipulating cosmic energy in it's fundamental forms, whether through knowledge and studying of it, having a direct relationship with it in one's blood and soul, seeing it in the weave between tone and meter, understanding the unique power that occurs when blade and person are unified as one, or drawing it from OTHER figures that know how to manipulate it.

It really is the "Going to College" Power Source – which encompasses all the classes within it.

If you're going to study, do art, are just naturally talented at whatever you do, or have to cheat to keep up with the others, you're probably Arcane.

I really like the description of the Arcane power source, which leads me to ask man, does that make the Primal Power source the Frat boys/Hippies?

Anyway, I'm really not that sure on a dual power source class. I really think that for that kind of area, maybe hybrid will meet the needs for that?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nandvs_the_fanpire Dec 25, 2009 19:28:01	Why not? To the 4.5 they may change the Mono Source to Dual Power Sources. Here a few for some of the the exsisting classes: PH1 Cleric: Divine Figther: Martial Paladin: Divine-Martial Ranger: Martial-Primal Rogue: Martial Warlock: Arcane (maybe anothers depending of his pact, example: Dreadmind pact (Arcane-Psionic) Wizard: Arcane PH2 Avenger: Divine-Martial Barbarian: Martial-Primal Bard: Arcane Druid: Primal Invoker: Divine Shaman: Primal Sorcerer: Arcane (maybe anothers depending of his spell source, example: Elemental magic (Arcane-Elemental) Warden: Primal (maybe anothers depending of his Guardian might, real example: Earthstrength Warden (Primal-Elemental) PH3 Psion: Psionic Monk: Ki-Martial Ardent: Psionic Seeker: Martial-Primal Battlemind: Martial-Psionic OTHERS: Swordmage: Arcane-Martial Artificer: Arcane Assasin: Shadow And maybe new old classes: Spellthief: Arcane-Shadow (or psionic-shadow for the Powerthief) Sohei: Ki-Martial Ninja: Ki-Shadow Samurai: Martial-Ki Sugenja: Divine-Elemental Divine Mind: Divine-Psionic Soulknife: Ki-Psionic Wilder: Primal-Psionic Luker: Psionic-Shadow It´s only a idea, but I think it´s good. PD: Yes, I resurrected the Ki, because alone can´t be a good idea, but mixed with another PS can be a good power source. PD2: Yes, I love the psionics.
#2 Stuntman Dec 26, 2009 0:40:58	I know of one paragon path that spans two power sources (there may be more). I don't see any particular mechanical reason why you cannot have a class that draws power from two different power sources. Not sure if it fits the fluff with the power sources. It seems that existing classes can be refluffed to draw power from two power sources. The reason why the do not do it this way may be to make accessory books easier to organise. Imagine if the paladin were both divine and martial. Now you have to get the Divine Power and Martial Power books to get more options for your paladin instead of just one power book. As a player, it is easier to just look in the PH1 and DP books for character options than in multiple power books.
#3 Marandahir Dec 26, 2009 1:31:07	I know of one paragon path that spans two power sources (there may be more). I don't see any particular mechanical reason why you cannot have a class that draws power from two different power sources. Not sure if it fits the fluff with the power sources. It seems that existing classes can be refluffed to draw power from two power sources. The reason why the do not do it this way may be to make accessory books easier to organise. Imagine if the paladin were both divine and martial. Now you have to get the Divine Power and Martial Power books to get more options for your paladin instead of just one power book. As a player, it is easier to just look in the PH1 and DP books for character options than in multiple power books. I'm surprised you missed the main example of this – originally the Assassin was going to be a dual power source, as they said in a podcast right after it was released. But the idea of dual power sources was scrapped, because it's a horrendous idea. Just because a build or class has a few similar concepts to another power source doesn't make it that power source. Just because something uses weapons doesn't make it martial – you need to reject all magical influence to be martial, and focus on the power of the bodily exploits and force of arms. Chaos Sorcerers may FEEL elemental to you now, but we have no idea what the elemental power source is going to be about, besides a connection nominally with Elementals and/or the Elemental Chaos. Sorcerers in fact draw on the same thing as every other arcane class – a fundamental knowledge of the way the cosmic laws of magic works in the universe, though expressed through natural talent rather than tome-studying or tinkering or singing or whatnot. Rangers should not be Primal. Part of what separates Barbarians, Seekers, and Rangers are the power-source deliniations. Seekers and Barbarians feel very much like the primal versions of Rangers, mystical hunters and warriors of the wilderness. Rangers don't invoke the primal spirits. They may be nature people, but they're not primal. Two-Blade Ranger has a Primal counterpart in Whirling Barbarian. Archer Ranger has a Primal counterpart in Vengeful Seeker. If you want the old, mystical Ranger from 3.5e that combined martial prowess with primal magic, you're in luck; it's called the Barbarian and the Seeker now. What this really boils down to is that the classes may have some similarities, but that doesn't make them actually part of that source. Weapon-using doesn't make you Martial. Nature-oriented doesn't make you Primal. Energy-type keyword powers connected to the elements don't make you Elemental. As said above, dual power sources make things way more complicated than they need to be, from both a business standpoint and from a player standpoint. Moreso, it serves to confuse the player – power sources provide definitions on why this class is different from classes of the same role. It provides an archetypal theme that can play and resonate between classes and against other classes, and when you start merging those themes, you get a muddled mess of not knowing what is going on. Leave that to Hybridclassing and Multiclassing. Dual Power Sources are REALLY unnecessary, and actually work against the distillation process that 4e has taken D&D in. Also, Word of God says no 4.5e. We're going straight from 4e to 5e, but that won't be for quite a while.
#4 LordArchaon Dec 26, 2009 10:48:28	Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source.
#5 Marandahir Dec 26, 2009 12:34:52	Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source. Meh, Arcane is only crowded if you don't fully understand what they're trying to go at – power from manipulating cosmic energy in it's fundamental forms, whether through knowledge and studying of it, having a direct relationship with it in one's blood and soul, seeing it in the weave between tone and meter, understanding the unique power that occurs when blade and person are unified as one, or drawing it from OTHER figures that know how to manipulate it. It really is the "Going to College" Power Source – which encompasses all the classes within it. If you're going to study, do art, are just naturally talented at whatever you do, or have to cheat to keep up with the others, you're probably Arcane.
#6 lizardmage Dec 26, 2009 13:26:48	Well it's been a long time since I had a dual-power source class in mind. In its last incarnation (a concept-only draft for now) it has psionic at-wills (and thus encounters) and primal dailies and utilities. This kind of separation would make for an interesting unique class IMO, but reading your point, I will consider other routes too. The bad things is that if I'd want to make the concept inside the bounds of a single power source, it will very probably end up being Arcane, a very crowded power source. Meh, Arcane is only crowded if you don't fully understand what they're trying to go at – power from manipulating cosmic energy in it's fundamental forms, whether through knowledge and studying of it, having a direct relationship with it in one's blood and soul, seeing it in the weave between tone and meter, understanding the unique power that occurs when blade and person are unified as one, or drawing it from OTHER figures that know how to manipulate it. It really is the "Going to College" Power Source – which encompasses all the classes within it. If you're going to study, do art, are just naturally talented at whatever you do, or have to cheat to keep up with the others, you're probably Arcane. I really like the description of the Arcane power source, which leads me to ask man, does that make the Primal Power source the Frat boys/Hippies? Anyway, I'm really not that sure on a dual power source class. I really think that for that kind of area, maybe hybrid will meet the needs for that?