The "big deal" as you put it, is to the gaming shops that have to stock this stuff at risk to themselves. If Barnes and Noble sells their stuff early, or even their local competitors, they are going to lose out big time on the rush sales.
They have a hard enough time keeping up with the massive preorder discounts that Amazon offers.
*whistles nonchalantly and hides amazon.com receipt*
Wow! Amazon sells D&D too? :P
I've preordered my core set from Amazon, but I will support my local bookstore (which I"ve done for years) and buy an additional copy (or two) of the PH (at least) once it hits shelves there.
Best of both worlds ;).
Uh...sorry.
Yeah, early 4e releases? That's unlikely unless an employee leaks them. No one at Wizards is that evil, though. Right?i preordered from Amazon since its so much cheaper. for the forthcoming books(adventurers vault, martial power, et al) not sure what ill do. might preorder, might just buy em at my local FLGS. i like supporting my local store.
:hoppingma:
:headexplo:
ok now that I got that out of my system...Hopefully there is no place doing so and anyone that does is properly prosecuted.
If by prosecuted you mean have penalties within the contract levied against them and/or are sued, then yes I agree. If by prosecuted you mean have the state charge them with a criminal offence, I think that might be a tad zealous ;)
I ordered the core gift set for $68 before taxes.
you payed $68? I only payed $54.75 :D YAY FOR B&N 25% OFF COUPONS!!!
you payed $68? I only payed $54.75 :D YAY FOR B&N 25% OFF COUPONS!!!
I paid $74... Canadian.
Live rates at 2008.05.25 00:26:36 UTC
1.00 CAD = 1.01168 USD
:cry:
:cry:
Dont worry, the US Dollar is catching up to Canada fast.
:cry:
lol Which of us is that supposed to be good for, Haldrik? :P We've spent the past thirty years waiting for our dollar to match the Americans' again...
...and it hasn't made my books any cheaper. :cry:
I work for my local game store, so i got 50% off and my employee discount.
Is that an at-cost discount on D&D products?! I should work at a game store!I too hope that anyone who sells the 4e stuff early is hit with a significant penalty.
the one annoying thing is that even with one-day shipping, i wont get my order from Amazon until the 9th. so for 3 days ill have to go sit in Barnes & Noble all day, reading the books. :P
I got the free 3-5 day shipping, and they're arriving on the 10th. Is it really worth it to pay $30+ to get the books one day sooner?
Actually it's just a deal cause it's an anime store and i normally don't buy merchandise.
Amazon says I will not get the gift set until 15 August because of the release date of the MM 4ed. Is this true or will I be able to purchase all three core books in June?
All three are out on the 6th. I only just recently discovered a FLGS so I'm gonna buy me an extra phb on game day from them.
Amazon says I will not get the gift set until 15 August because of the release date of the MM 4ed. Is this true or will I be able to purchase all three core books in June?
I have a preorder of 4 Player's Handbooks for my players, and 1 Gift Set for myself, all together shipped by Free Super Saver Shipping from Amazon.ca. Because your post worried me, I just doublechecked my order, and sure enough, Amazon (again, .ca) is estimating arrival between the 12th and 17th of June (this year, of course :P).
(It's worth noting that Amazon.ca is also estimating that I will receive my previous order, Keep on the Shadowfell and a Dungeons of Dread booster, tomorrow, Tuesday, 27 May 08, when I actually received it last Friday, 23 May 08. It was shipped Free Super Saver Shipping as well, via Canada Post.)
...So, I feel reassured! Amazon has been good to me! *Knocks on wood.*
If by prosecuted you mean have penalties within the contract levied against them and/or are sued, then yes I agree. If by prosecuted you mean have the state charge them with a criminal offence, I think that might be a tad zealous ;)
Naturally. I don't think there is any actual law against selling books early. It is just a real jerk move to the FLGS who has to eat the lost sales.
Time will tell. Sooner or later ... Time will tell.
Naturally. I don't think there is any actual law against selling books early. It is just a real jerk move to the FLGS who has to eat the lost sales.
Agreed.
If a set release date has been set then it is really unfair for stores to release stuff early, especially if those releasing it early are huge corporations and those who are sticking to the date are small independants.
I would have thought that it was the hobbies best interests for FLGSs to get permission to release stuff earlier than big stores since it's FLGS that promote the hobby, get new players interested, host games, sell other products as well as the books, help staff the cons and represent the hobby to the public. Oh well...
What... is an FLGS?
Friendly Local Game Store.
I could see some books being sold early in more remote places, but wouldn't WotC be monitoring the sales of them and just not sell books to suppliers if they pull a super dick move like selling early?
Let's say Borders releases a book early and WotC gets $10,000 from them (making up these numbers). WotC retaliates by not giving Borders the books next time and so WotC loses that $10,000.
Doesn't sound like that great of an idea. Now an individual FLGS gives WotC $500 (making up the numbers again). WotC can stand to make an example of the FLGS and lose that $500.
I paid $74... Canadian.
:cry:
Don't cry. I paid them about 90 euro. That's the price they have here in Italy (3 core books).
Tried once to order books from Amazon and that was a mess for the import procedure. I had to go to the closest airport and custom clear them myself and pay VAT.
I always get the free 2 day shipping as part of my prime membership and everything I pre-order arrives on the release date. In my confirmation email they list the release date as the estimated ship date but in my experience they ship the order early enough that it arrives on the release date.
Traditional game/book stores have it hard enough, but if internet retailers are allowed to break street date (and this is assuming it is a hard street date), it's just another nail in the coffin for the FLGS.
I ordered from amazon.com strictly because the two local shops I'm aware of are owned by the same guy and managed by arrogant pricks that I refuse to give my business to. I'd buy from a local gaming shop if there was one that wasn't run this way...
I order for much the same reason. There is no FLGS near me, and the closest is a comic store that has so so service and only a 50/50 of having any DND product I want.
I don't see what the big deal about a simultaneous launch day is.
The point is that all businesses get a fair chance to sell the product. If the distribution center is in California then a Barnes and Noble in San Fransisco is likely to have the books before a Borders in Denver and has an advantage in sales. Its to keep competition fair. A street date is usually set far enough beyond the shipping dates that all stores will have received the product and be ready to sell it on that date.
Friendly Local Game Store.
Let's say Borders releases a book early and WotC gets $10,000 from them (making up these numbers). WotC retaliates by not giving Borders the books next time and so WotC loses that $10,000.
Doesn't sound like that great of an idea. Now an individual FLGS gives WotC $500 (making up the numbers again). WotC can stand to make an example of the FLGS and lose that $500.
Publishers can and will levy hefty fines on big chain stores for breaking street date. On the employee level big chain stores can and will fire members of their inventory teams when that happens.
The point is that all businesses get a fair chance to sell the product. If the distribution center is in California then a Barnes and Noble in San Fransisco is likely to have the books before a Borders in Denver and has an advantage in sales. Its to keep competition fair. A street date is usually set far enough beyond the shipping dates that all stores will have received the product and be ready to sell it on that date.
Beyond that, sales numbers are generated from first week/month/60 days of sales. Most publishers are only interested in this for their major releases, so "My Favorite Umber Hulk" by Danny Newcomer isn't street dated, but John Grisham's books will always be. D&D books aren't normally street dated, but there's a lot of stock being put in the 4e rules.
If the first week of sales is set, all the publishers, New York Times list makers*, and such need do is poll "How many units sold from 6/6 to 6/13?" If people put it on sale before street date, this becomes more difficult. ("How many did you sale the first week?" "Um, well, we put it on sale on the first, but... we've sold 82 so far, but... well, it's been two weeks, so I guess, um, 40?") Accurate sales numbers are needed for future marketing and such.
Publishers can and will levy hefty fines on big chain stores for breaking street date. On the employee level big chain stores can and will fire members of their inventory teams when that happens.
The rumor was that breaking street date for Harry Potter 7 brought a fine of $100,000 per book sold. (Even opening the boxes before a prescribed "you can let the press inside" time would result in a stiff penalty). I didn't bother to test that.
I doubt breaking date on the Monster Manual is that extreme, but I'm not risking it.
The rumor was that breaking street date for Harry Potter 7 brought a fine of $100,000 per book sold. (Even opening the boxes before a prescribed "you can let the press inside" time would result in a stiff penalty). I didn't bother to test that.
I doubt breaking date on the Monster Manual is that extreme, but I'm not risking it.
I can verify that yes, there was a penalty. I work as part of the inventory team for a major chain bookstore. Our boxes of those books even came labeled as big sale promotion to be started the day after the Harry Potter release. Only a few of us and one or two management staff of individual stores knew what was actually in the boxes, so that employees wouldnt be tempted to tamper with the boxes. As far as store employees knew the books were going to arrive at the store the night of the release event.
I can verify that yes, there was a penalty. I work as part of the inventory team for a major chain bookstore. Our boxes of those books even came labeled as big sale promotion to be started the day after the Harry Potter release. Only a few of us and one or two management staff of individual stores knew what was actually in the boxes, so that employees wouldnt be tempted to tamper with the boxes. As far as store employees knew the books were going to arrive at the store the night of the release event.
Oh, I knew there was a penalty. What I referred to as "rumor" was the extremity of the penalty (I don't doubt it's possibility, just that I heard the figure second hand, not from Scholastic). I'm the assistant manager (and street date gestapo) of a major chain bookstore.
I will say that we haven't even received the 4e books yet. (racka-frackin' mumble, mumble)
Oh, I knew there was a penalty. What I referred to as "rumor" was the extremity of the penalty (I don't doubt it's possibility, just that I heard the figure second hand, not from Scholastic). I'm the assistant manager (and street date gestapo) of a major chain bookstore.
I will say that we haven't even received the 4e books yet. (racka-frackin' mumble, mumble)
Ah yeah. Sorry. It seems like a lot of the people around here dont believe there are those sorts of penalties. Lots of 'Book stores just break street dates willy nilly' comments.
I think we got our 4e books today. They updated from in transit to on hand. Most RPG stuff isnt street dated with the exception of a lot of WotC stuff, but in the last few months even WotC stuff hasnt been. We got our pallets just before I left for the day so I dont know if it came street dated or not. I guess Ill find out tomorrow.
Im one of those that even if it comes without a street date I wont buy it until the date that Im aware of (ie, if they dont have a street date the store will sell them but I wont buy them until the 6th).
I will say that we haven't even received the 4e books yet. (racka-frackin' mumble, mumble)
And this is the real reason for street dates. It allows the distributer to get the books out to ever store that ordered it by the set date. And is done because in this day of the internet and over night shipping it is feasable to cancel orders from one place and overnight an order from across the country.
Back in the 70's and 80's when I would hang out at a local chain store, I knew the schedule of what publisher typically shipped what week and would actually go to the stock room to check new arrivals.
You can't do that anymore of course but that was fun and I would often get a stack of new books from the stock clerk that I then went and bought. Street date was not even a concept back then. But the internet facilitating communication so everyone knows that Joes Quickie Game Store has the latest new game today and UPS can get it to me tomorrow changed all that.Publishers can and will levy hefty fines on big chain stores for breaking street date. On the employee level big chain stores can and will fire members of their inventory teams when that happens.
Book publishers maybe, but have you got any examples of an RPG company doing it?
Book publishers maybe, but have you got any examples of an RPG company doing it?
Outside of WotC RPGs virtually never have street dates attached to their books, so no I dont. Even WotC products in the last half year or so havent been arriving with street dates attached.
Outside of WotC RPGs virtually never have street dates attached to their books, so no I dont. Even WotC products in the last half year or so havent been arriving with street dates attached.
So you response to my original post seems a bit pointless then.
So you response to my original post seems a bit pointless then.
It probably wouldnt work the way you posted it anyhow. It would go more like WotC makes $10,000 off Borders (not likely, chain stores view RPGs as very niche products, because they are. People tend to buy RPG books at hobby shops or online. Our store has even discussed losing the gaming books section all together a few times in the last 2 years. Depending on whether or not theres an FLGS in the area, and the demographic of the area its likely the FLGS is making more money for WotC than Borders is), then WotC fines the snot out of Borders. They can choose to stop working with Borders, yes, but probably wont. They probably wont with a smaller FLGS either.
Do they ship on the date or before to make the date
Thanks
I too have been feeling the guilt of online buying, I am considering skipping my FLGS release party due to my act of disloyalty. I will make it up by buying a battle map and future supplements through it though
They can choose to stop working with Borders, yes, but probably wont. They probably wont with a smaller FLGS either.
That scenario was in response to Propane asking if WotC would do it.
then WotC fines the snot out of Borders.
If WotC actually does this, hallelujah. However given they've never done it before (and I seriously doubt this is the first time Borders has sold books early), I'm not holding my breath.
When the new Harry Potter book cane out, one of the big british supermarkets sold it as a "Loss leader" for less than it cost them to buy it from their supplier
this gave them two advantages - firstly, while there, a customer might buy something else. secondly, a small shop, that just can't swallow a big loss, might be relying on that trade, and so, when the NEXT big book comes out, the supermarket has one less competetor
plus, as was posted on another thread, in the relationship between Wizards and (say) amazon, wizards represents a teeny-weeny little part of Amazon's trade, whereas Amazon will represent a significant chunk of Wizard's trade. Wizards will have to be carefull they don't draw the wrong kind of attention
Finally, there have been street-date-breaches of Wizards products in the past that have not been significantly enforced - for precisley the reason given above. I've known retailers who have contacted Wizards when breaches have occured, and the exact explanation about power I gave was given
If WotC actually does this, hallelujah. However given they've never done it before (and I seriously doubt this is the first time Borders has sold books early), I'm not holding my breath.
Again, if there are no street dates marked on the boxes when the stores receive them the stores are completely within their rights to sell the product. Its up to WotC to post those street dates. Since January of this year not one box of WotC product has come through the store I work at with a listed street date. Thats not the stores fault, its WotCs. If they didnt label the boxes with a street date and try to fine a store like Borders or B&N for putting it on shelves when it arrived, its a legal battle they will lose.
It is not just my individual stores policy, but company wide policy that boxes that arrive with a street date are not even opened until that date. It doesnt matter if they come from a local press or Del Rey books, they do not get opened.
I dont know that the policy is the same for every major book store chain but I do know it is for the one I work for and at least one other.
Case in point.. I've gotten Two of my Changeling the lost supllement books early from ordering this way.. because one of the printing companies sent a bunch of the books out.. and without a street date.. the company selling the book marks it as "available to sell" and ships it or shelves it.
http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=317
Why can't WotC make these people pay attention to release dates?
As to street dates I used to work for a little music/movie chain and if the company sets a street date it is a hard or soft date, a hard date fines early sales (although if you as the retailer can prove that it is on sale at a competitor you are allowed to break street early to compete) but a soft date just means that when you get the product, you can put it out. Most books (except the Harry Potter releases) were soft in our world, so if the books actually show up on the 5th, I wonder if they will go on sale. It does not matter if there is a warning on the box or not if the vendor and the company have agreed to a date, as an inventory manager you try your best to watch communicated dates and stick to them.
Also, I bet your LFGS might take cash sales as soon as they get the book and then ring those cash sales in after the 6th. I would if I owned one. I would call my pre-orders and sell from "behind the counter" only to pre-orders before the 6th, so that no product would be on display and no computer evidence would exist to prove the sale. But my store would have to be small and informal, I wouldn't try it if I was larger.
although if you as the retailer can prove that it is on sale at a competitor you are allowed to break street early to compete
If this is true I'm suprised that all stores aren't selling 4e right now - since it has clearly been released early by at least one company, possibly others.
If piracy counts as a 'competitor' then there's no point having a date on anything anymore.
Hopefully everyone starts selling immediately. I think they'd be within their rights if they did (although on such a large scale we probably won't be so lucky).
From what I have been reading on Enworld, at least Buy.com has already sent out the books and people have received them already. here's the link:
http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=317
Why can't WotC make these people pay attention to release dates?
Maybe because they're not Random House with Tom Clancy as an author?
I just wish they'd sent my PHB first, that's where I want to start reading!
Gerry
I think there's actually a chance of early release here.
So there is a lot of talk about Amazon shipping to make the release dates, but does anyone have experience with Barnes and Noble?
Do they ship on the date or before to make the date
Thanks
Seconding this question, 'cause it'd just be even more painful to hafta wait for my books...
EDIT: To clarify, I'm actually ordering from Amazon, it's just that I'd like to know if it'll be shipped to get here by release. If so, I'm just going to go with the Super Saver Shippin', 'cause hell, it's ten days away at this point and waiting an extra day at worst wouldn't bother me much. Otherwise, I'm going to order some rapid delivery...
Moral of the story... the little local retailers have to play by the rules, the big boys don't.
Again, if there are no street dates marked on the boxes when the stores receive them the stores are completely within their rights to sell the product. Its up to WotC to post those street dates. Since January of this year not one box of WotC product has come through the store I work at with a listed street date. Thats not the stores fault, its WotCs. If they didnt label the boxes with a street date and try to fine a store like Borders or B&N for putting it on shelves when it arrived, its a legal battle they will lose.
It is not just my individual stores policy, but company wide policy that boxes that arrive with a street date are not even opened until that date. It doesnt matter if they come from a local press or Del Rey books, they do not get opened.
I dont know that the policy is the same for every major book store chain but I do know it is for the one I work for and at least one other.
Then clearly the fault lies with FLGS's for not releasing books that don't have a street date.
(Plus I really really want my books:angelhide)
Then clearly the fault lies with FLGS's for not releasing books that don't have a street date.
Im inclined to believe its WotCs fault for not including street dates. If it were a store like B&N or Borders I would suggest its possibly an error on the distributer level, but places like Amazon.com and Buy.com dont use distribution companies (one of the reasons theyre able to offer stuff at such low prices). Of course without being in their warehouse I couldnt be 100% sure. Its possible they just broke street date.
If the FLGS gets product without a street date, then yes, theyre within their rights to sell it as soon as they get it. I know my store wont be selling the books until the 6th. We DID have a street date attached to them and even if WotC decides to push the date forward we are obligated to wait until the date listed on the boxes (its happened before, a publisher pushed their street date forward a week but our store, our entire company, would not sell the books before the original street date).
We also had a dedicated WoTC rep in town that would also pass the information along about release dates and such. We were lucky like that. :D
I used to work at a FLGS (probably a year since I left). But I remember a goodly number of WoTC products coming with a hard street date. This date was not always stamped on the box, but was included within the invoice report, as well as an email from the distributor. If the 6th is, in fact, a hard date then anyone who releases the books early because "there was no date on the box" is using a bull excuse. The release date (again, provided that it is, indeed, a hard date) appears in more places than just the box.
We also had a dedicated WoTC rep in town that would also pass the information along about release dates and such. We were lucky like that. :D
That used to be the case for us. Since January however nothing has come with a hard street date from WotC. Our shipment of 4e books is the first thing in almost 6 months that has.
Wierd. I wonder why the shift? Has it been the same with Magic too? Cause that was always the really strict one.
Yeah, Magic, minis (both D&D and Star Wars), source books, novels, everything. I have no idea why the change, but its not just the bulk stuff. Single orders as well. Two copies of Ascendancy of the Last showed up yesterday without a street date. That book is supposed to release on the 6th. The 4e core books DO have one, but theyre the first WotC product since January that have.
However, it was not hard to find high quality alternatives to read now while I wait.
I got a message from a buddy last night that stated that his preorder with Amazon dropped in price as well. Amazon, at least, has brought it down to about $20 a book with what he was saying.
Looks like that is indeed the case. 45% off now for the boxed set. $57.72 with free shipping.
Indivisually they are $23 and change each still...
I too have already begun reading the copies available. Still have the boxed set and two additional Player's Handbooks on preorder though. Not going to change that just because I got a sneak peak.
you payed $68? I only payed $54.75 :D YAY FOR B&N 25% OFF COUPONS!!!
Heheh - after pre-order discount, coupons, and other member rewards...
Core Set of 3 books for $8.82
Of course I won't actually get them until June 10th, but meh.
I am a member of Amazon Prime which allows me to get 1 day shipping on any item for $3.99. My Keep on the Shadowfell arrived one day earlier than expected and it was shipped 1-day as well, so I'm hoping that means that my books will arrive on Friday (meaning shipped Thursday) instead of Monday.
Time will tell. Sooner or later ... Time will tell.
I'm in the exact same boat, hoping for the exact same thing. I *SO* want those books on Friday, not Monday.
lol. I don't really trust that, and yet...Amazon won't even put a 6/6 delivery date on the thing, so I'm staying with Walmart, even though the cost is now approximately even.
I'm in the exact same boat, hoping for the exact same thing. I *SO* want those books on Friday, not Monday.
Good luck. I pre-ordered through amazon. I contacted them today to see if it was even *possible* to get the book on the day it was released.
Their answer?
And I'm quoting here (I just copied this from their e-mail to me):
"Please note that could ship this item only once this item has been released and we receive copies."
Ignore the grammatical error. Clearly, the upshot here as *I* read it is that the book won't be shipped until the 6th (once it has been released.)
So, thanks Amazon, and thanks WotC - apparently, somewhere between the two of you, I'm not getting my books on the day they are released (I even paid for 1 day shipping, but it's 1 business day, so that means Monday the 9th.) Perhaps, WotC, the future, you could release it on a Wed or Thursday (or heck, Monday for that matter.)
Arilon
You do realize that is just a scripted response from a service center in India right?
Next you're going to tell me that D&D is a role-playing game, right?
The entire message wasn't totally scripted as part if responded to specific items I placed in my e-mail to them. The follow-up e-mail I sent to them was responded to by an even less scripted response.
Arilon
The only thing I can ever think of not getting on release is Mario Kart Wii which for some wierd reason was released on a Sunday, but I did get it the following Monday.
I spoke to the local store where I ordered my books. They haven't received them yet, but when they do they aren't releasing them early unless WotC releases retailers from the street date. Since they are a small operation, being cut off from WotC would be bad for them. My guess is WotC doesn't care about "losing" sales from a few small stores (by cutting them off), as those customers will still buy their product elsewhere.
Moral of the story... the little local retailers have to play by the rules, the big boys don't.
Actually, small game stores get them from regional wholesalers not WotC directly. They will not violate the date; its not good business practice and subject to fines and other punitive actions like-we wont sell you our product anymore. Ian.
I've not heard of any early release from him.
I used to work at AAFES until very recently (maybe some of you know about these? On every military post in all the states and overseas as well) and I can honestly tell you that even this store, which I kind of view as a big chain not a mom and pop store, were STILL afraid of raising the wrath of the publishers. Heres why;
Someone gave an example of if the publisher's cut off Border's they would lose thousands of dollars. But the thing is they wouldn't cut off BORDER'S, they would cut off the one store that presold before hand (works the same with all stores, was the order associate and thus good friends with everyone including the major publishers that we dealt with). Therefore, THAT Border's would lose out on the next big release (sorry border's on second and main, no huge bestselling novel for you), and all the people who really wanted the book would just go to another store to pick it up. Publisher still gets the money, just from a different store.
Sorry, but if someone really wants the book, they're not just going to say 'aaah this store doesn't have it, I guess I won't buy it.' They're going to go to other stores/ go online and get it. This is true 98% of the time.
As for fines and such, yes they are out there. I remember Harry Potter coming out and going DIRECTLY into the cage with only two keys, the area manager and loss prevention manager. When it comes to big street dates (and I count D&D as such) stores don't want to mess with getting the big ban.
Argue with me if you'd like.
:headexplo
:hoppingma :hoppingma I just picked mine up from a retailer here at a local mall. I went there to see if they had a sale on all 3 books together, and when I walked up, lo and behold, there was the cardboard display with the books inside.
Does the retailer rhyme with "Maldencrooks" or "Porters" Express?
Does the retailer rhyme with "Maldencrooks" or "Porters" Express?
I can neither confirm, nor deny that question.
I ordered from amazon.com strictly because the two local shops I'm aware of are owned by the same guy and managed by arrogant pricks that I refuse to give my business to. I'd buy from a local gaming shop if there was one that wasn't run this way...
Well, if you ever have the time, drive to the Oakland section of Pittsburgh and give Phantom of the Attic a try. Great stores (one for comics, one for gaming), the owner Jeff is a great guy, and the staff is pretty cool, too.
Of course, gas does cost, but if you're ever in the 'Burgh...