Amazon.com has also changed, amazon.co.uk has them ECG at June 16, EPG June 21. So no idea what is up.
The product guide still has them with the player's guide coming second.
So keep an eye on this stuff if you're also pre-ordering, especially if you were planning on bundling Divine power with an eberron book (like I was)
Wait... why do you think the Player's Guide should be first? The DM's book should be first so they can prepare for their campaigns... yu do know that the DM's need more prep time than players right?
it should go first for this reason, the DM has a lot more resources available if the player's guide comes out first (the players guide itself, previous edition books for the Setting, the MM and DMG and other DM books etc) while if the players want to play key setting items (in this case, changelings, kalashtar, and dragonmarks) properly, they have to wait another month.
I felt a little bad starting a 4E Eberron campaign last month when my players didn't have the options available yet, especially since one wanted a changeling (and is an MM doppelganger for now) and an Elf Wizard member of a dragonmarked house, who probably would have been marked if that option had been available.
If the player's guide is all that is available to the DM to set up their campaign it should still have enough setting information to muddle through for 3-5 weeks until the setting itself comes out, but without a bunch of fudging and saying 'we'll change that when the official version comes' you can't really begin a game as well as you can with the PG first.
In a perfect world, both would come out on the same day, but they can't really and don't.
And it's my theory that the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide would have done a bit better if it had come out after the Player's Guide.
it should go first for this reason, the DM has a lot more resources available if the player's guide comes out first (the players guide itself, previous edition books for the Setting, the MM and DMG and other DM books etc) while if the players want to play key setting items (in this case, changelings, kalashtar, and dragonmarks) properly, they have to wait another month.
I can't agree. Having the campaign guide out first gives the DM a month to go over the material and decide if he wants to run the setting. Simultaneous release might work, but player's guide first doesn't. Without the campaign guide the DM won't have the necessary details to make the setting significant. There might be a large backlog of still viable Eberron fluff from 3.5, but that is unique situation. Future campaigns will not be able to rely on such, and Eberron shouldn't have to either. There are after all groups for whom 4e is there first D&D, or that skipped 3e, that can't be expected to own any f that backlog.
Anyway, while reviewing my recent orders with Amazon, to confirm my aproval of the now deleyed Eberron Campaign guide, I discovered that my order of the complete set of Hero minis has also been delayed. No problem I think, I can wait a month, but they've been delayed until JUNE! WTF!
However, when I look at it from the perspective of somebody who wants to play a specific realm, well in that case the obvious answer is for the Campaign Guide to be released first, gives the DM's time to prep.
of course, if WotC did indeed stick to its idea of not advancing the time line, then in Eberron's case (and Eberron's alone) I can see them reversing the release schedule. People already know what's going on in the setting and not much should change. What's more important is getting the broad stroke changes down (such as how Tieflings, Dragonborn, Deva, etc. fit in the world ) and giving the player's the options they want (such as new races, new feats, etc.).
of course, if WotC did indeed stick to its idea of not advancing the time line, then in Eberron's case (and Eberron's alone) I can see them reversing the release schedule. People already know what's going on in the setting and not much should change. What's more important is getting the broad stroke changes down (such as how Tieflings, Dragonborn, Deva, etc. fit in the world ) and giving the player's the options they want (such as new races, new feats, etc.).
Agreed, that this reversal is marginally acceptable, because valid campaign fluff already exits. That, however, only applies to those who played 3e Eberron. New players, of which 4e has attracted quite a few, are unlikely to already own any of that and should not be expected to purchase it.
In regards to those broad strokes. We don't need any new books to know how Tieflings fit into Eberron. They were a 3e race that existed in Eberron, so the background fluff is already their. The same goes for devas if one takes the simplest route and uses them as the replacement for the old aasimar, also an existent race in Eberron. Even dragonborn have limited Eberron fluff from Races of the Dragon.
None of the above, however, means that such information shouldn't be included in the new campaign material (for new players and those otherwise unfamiliar with the setting), but none of it is so desperately essential as so many people seem to believe.
I'm not complaining though. I get to convert my 3.5 artificer a month early.
...our halfling Artificer from House Ghallanda (using a couple of daily-free-use rituals to simulate her dragonmark and a reskinned wizard paragon path).
...our changeling warlock (doing alright with the MM doppelganger stats, but racial feats will be welcome)
...our human fighter from House Orien (pseudo dragonmark feat to swap out third at-will feat for per-encounter Fey Step).
...our warforged cleric of the Sovereign Host (currently offstage; in 3e, was using the Speaker of the Host prestige class. Waiting on the Eberron guides as well as Divine Power).
As far as needing the campaign guide to tell whether you want to run a game - I think if you're undecided, you won't be too inconvenienced by waiting an extra month for the Campaign Guide, and you'll have the PG right there ready to go if it appeals to you. On the other hand, producing the Player's Guide first has a pretty tangible benefit to the several posters on this thread and others like us who are already set to run Eberron 4e, but could use final rules first and updated campaign information second.
The campaign guide helps new DM's to the world, get more information about the setting. It will also have an adventure that the DM can read before the players make their unique to the setting characters and can change depending on the group, ie more or less players than the norm. It also gives background to the NPC's and organizations in the world so the DM can start crafting the story.
If you just get the player oriented book, while there is some very useful info in there, it is far from as useful as the campaign guide. The DM's guide will probably have info about how long it takes to travel on the lightning rail or by airship. The dangers of dealing with sauhagin in the Shargon's Teeth area, or how drow have a different society in Xen'drik. Not to mention, maybe some important NPC's in Sharn, so you can get the game started.
I'm always surprised by the number of players that have the 'I played D&D before, so I'm more important' mentality. You need to get off your high horse and realize that some players are brand new to the game, let alone DMing and the world doesn't revolve around you. The campaign guide is more useful to these players than you, and lets face it, new players are what is going to keep the hobby alive, not people that have been playing since the 70's or 80's.
I think it's an error, but since I'm not getting Eberron, I'm not to upset.
Bel
It actually kind of makes sense in that the players have that first month to work on their characters, but yeah it does suck for DM's trying to put together a campaign for the players.
Weather as a player or a DM (I have been both), I'd rather see DM material released before player material. It has been my experience that players are quite capable of coming up with interesting character on very short notice or have a simple tendency to use a character they've wanted to use for sometime and will make minor tweaks to fit them into whatever setting they play; conversely it can take some time for a DM to come up with a good campaign.
As I see it it's best to release campaign guides first, giving the DM a month to prepair. Then when the player's guide comes out give the players a week to look it over before the first session.
While i am going to buy the player's guide, i have no need/desire to pick up the campaign guide. So even though i dont care either way if the campaign guide even exists in the first place, im glad that the book i actually want will be out a month early.
There's going to be quite a few people like this.
Many of these people may fall in LOVE with the setting over the month owning the PG, and want to buy the setting the next month.
I stand by my idea that the players guide should come out first.
It's very possible that this is true. While I am concerned that the DMs would have less time to work on their setting, because the Player's will want to use the new material right away, especially since building a campaign is a hell-of-a-lot tougher than building a character, I agree with superdeadsmurf that switching them may actually up the sales of the ECG, because more people will know what it's all about after the EPG, which they'll be more willing to spend their money on (because it's cheaper, and more desirable for immediate game effects and mostly filled with crunch). The FRCG didn't do nearly as well because it was a shot in the dark.
Also, the FRCG differs from the ECG in that the ECG deviates from the PoL a lot more, and thus may be a lot more of an attractive setting for players than FR. So I believe this is a very good move. Whether or not the sales numbers reflect this move, we'll just have to see. The next CS (for 2010) will probably go with the format that boosted the sales more.
I forget the details.
I just got an email from amazon saying that my campaign guide won't be coming out until July, so I checked amazon.ca and the player's guide is now June (which is good, that's the way it should have been in the first place)
Amazon.com has also changed, amazon.co.uk has them ECG at June 16, EPG June 21. So no idea what is up.
The product guide still has them with the player's guide coming second.
So keep an eye on this stuff if you're also pre-ordering, especially if you were planning on bundling Divine power with an eberron book (like I was)
Actualy I've known about this for a while. At first I thought it was just a mistake. And then it was confirmed. I first found out about this at the Dragon Above.It comes in handy for news.
Edit: It has been confirmed. You can read about it here.
I maintain that if they did switch the order of the books it was so that they could avoid having two player books released in the same month(Divine Power & EPG).
Good point. Though in many ways I would have preferred them to have switched ECS with DP instead of EPG. As others have said there is some interesting merit in releasing both CS and PG in the same month and just not worrying which comes first.
PGs are useful and crunchy, but it's the CS that Trula brings a campaign alive. Also if it's anything like the FRCS, than the ECS will contain an introductory adventure. I'd probably be more forgiving of switching the CS and PG release dates if the Eberron adventure, Seekers of the Ashen Crown, had been moved t June as well. As it stands now, for one whole month the players will have OFFICIAL Eberron characters, but no OFFICIAL Eberron to actually play in.