While it is possible that "Elemental" may go the way of Ki and be lost, so far, all of the evidence from WoTC is that they are indeed trying to create classes for this power source. Seeing as how Elemental has about a 50% chance of being released in the PHB4 (the other possibility for a new power source is Shadow), I thought I'd ask people's opinions about what they think we might get for Elemental power source classes, be it in general or specific class ideas.
In general, I think the Elemental source will go for a theme of "Change", or perhaps "Transmutation" would be a better choice. The fundamental nature of the Elemental Chaos is that it's chaos - endless change and transformation; creation, destruction and recreation over and over without end. By tapping into the eternal flux that is the fundamental status of reality itself, an Elementalist can goad that static existence of the materium into temporary motion to reshape the world around them, be it in as small a fashion as making stones float to create an impromptu staircase, or as dramatic as triggering a volcanic eruption.
As for classes, I have two ideas relatively solid in my head.
The Shaper is the Elemental Controller, though "Shaper" may be something of a misnomer. Through some innate connection to the Elemental Chaos, the Shaper is practically a walking rift in dimensions - disasters seem to follow in their wake, as their mere presence goads life into the elements around them. Fire burns hotter, earth tremors, winds are more intense, plants grow faster. The Shaper is an Elementalist who has learned to tap into this font of elemental energy and use it to their advantage. At first, they can merely stir the elements into riotous activity, causing the earth underfoot to buckle with an angry gesture, or smiting foes with a bolt of thunder and lightning from the clear sky. As they grow stronger, they can unleash more dramatic outbursts of elemental transfiguration - spears of stone erupting from below to impale foes and then becoming rocky outcroppings that provide shelter/difficult terrain, conjuring violent wind vortexes that pull enemies into their grasp. When they truly master their powers, they can control the elements like puppets on a string, creating ravening maws of flame that chase down and devour foes, or tendrils of acid that crush and sear any foes that approach them.
The Transmuter, meanwhile, is the Elemental Striker. Similarly to the Shaper, they use elemental energy to induce the elements of reality to change, but they have less raw power and more finesse than the Shaper. This means that they cannot create changes as widescale as a Shaper, but can create far more controlled changes. This even allows them to directly change living creatures, which Shapers are incapable of doing - the infusion of astral essence renders them too "nonelemental" for their powers to work on. Some Transmuters focus on powers that hinder and impair their foes - or at least, are not directly lethal, even if they may cause suffering and pain. Changing the air around a foe's wrist to iron shackles, or turning their armor into living wood and all but immobilizing them as hungry roots rapidly anchor themselves to the soil is the same as changing the air in their victim's lungs to mud for a Transmuter of this caliber. Others prefer a more direct approach - boiling the blood in veins, changing the air directly around their foe into clinging acidic slime, turning skin to flame or bones to glass, reducing living flesh to lifeless stone or solid ice.
Though it doesn't make sense ;)
I'm not a stickler for having a class of each role in every power source (after all, I'm rabidly anti-Martial Controller), but if it went that way, I think it would be:
Earth: Defender
Water: Leader
Air/Fire: Striker and Controller, I'm not sure which would be which, since there's ample support for either in theory.
Can you really think of 75 or more different and unique ways to make a power revolving solely around the concept of "Earth"?
Honestly, yes. Though it would be difficult enough to make it worth while, and not boring.
What could be fun, is if you had 3-4 classes, each with 4 sub-classes(earth wind fire water). Paticularly if all the sub classes where the same, so hybrids/MC's would allow you to gain bonuses from cross class powers.
So you could have a striker(earth) take a defender power and get the earth bonus.
Earth: Defender
Water: Leader
Air/Fire: Striker and Controller, I'm not sure which would be which, since there's ample support for either in theory.
Air is definatly controller, and Fire is striker.
So in total,
All elemental classes would have
Earth Affinity: Resist 2/3/4 to untyped damage
Fire Affinity: +2/3/4 to all damage
Air Affinity: Slide 1 when you hit with a encounter/daily power
Water Affinity: Heal 2/3/4 when you use an encounter/daily power
The problem with that approach is the fundamental fact that classes need powers to function. Can you really think of 75 or more different and unique ways to make a power revolving solely around the concept of "Earth"? Me, I think not. A class devoted solely to controlling the four classic elements as a whole could work, but a class devoted to embodying a singular elemental category? There's only so much you can do with a given element before you just run out of things to let it do.
You could probably pull off enough variation with two elements for each class. Then, when Elemental Power is released they add the other two elements to each class.
Edit: whoo for being ninja'd... Added quote to clarify who I was talking to.
Wu Jen seemed more like a variant wizard to me in 3.x. Though, that does bring up the question of if they'll stick to the 4 classical elements or if they'll cast a wider net. Even assuming we don't touch wood or metal, might there still be a possiblity for aether or void? Will they try to say lightning is an element or will they leave it as a combination of elements?
Some ideas for Elemental classes:
Elementalist (Elemental Striker):
The single-element caster. Not sure if this should be more of a melee-oriented caster, or a more ranged class in order to set it apart from the Sorcerer. One possible gimmick for this class is a different secondary role for each element (such as Defender for Earth, Leader for Water, and a more pure Striker for Fire and Air, focusing on damage or mobility respectively). Another might be that the riders on the elementalist's powers change depending on what element he's attuned to. Not sure if this would be mode-based like the Runepriest or based on which power he used last.
For instance, following an earth power with a wind blast might kick up a sandstorm that blinds enemies. If the elementalist used a water power beforehand, though, it would instead summon freezing mist that slows opponents.
Alchemist (Elemental Defender):
The alchemist who specializes in transforming one substance into another, and in transmuting oneself through the process of enlightenment. A melee caster who focuses on close burst attacks and may either transform himself, his allies, or his enemies (giving him either a secondary Leader or Controller focus). Might be a more mobile, "squishy" defender like the swordmage, rather than a pure tank like the warden.
Okay, seriously, the people trying to set apart the different roles by the elements are probably going to be the most wrong. That might've flown in previous editions, but now elemental power comes from the elemental chaos, which in 4e is a blend of elements, sometimes in ways that make no logical sense. Flinging solid chunks of acidic lightning would fit in the 4e elemental milieu. Being solely dedicated to "Air" would not.
What I predict is that at least a few of the classes will have roots in previous editions. Some of them are likely to be Ki refugees, since there was a strong elementalist vibe in the previous Oriental Adventures spellcasters (Shugenja, Wu Jen). Sha'ir have been mentioned in Dragon articles, but it's unclear if they're Elemental classes or simply a different name for Arcane classes. Previously, they got their power from a "gen," which is like an elemental familiar that would fetch their spells from the elemental planes. Could lead to some interesting mechanics there.
Also of note is the character of Brevan Foss from Revenge of the Giants. He's a spellcaster working with the giants. It's never said where his power comes from, but he has some unusual powers relating to fire, ice, and both at the same time. I think he may be relevant to the direction of Elemental Power in general.
CHR will be a primary or secondary for all elemental classes, much in the way that WIS is a primary or secondary for all divine classes (even though the whole WIS thing is more of a holdover from previous editions). This also fits thematically with the whole chaos and creativity thing.
Each class might have a set of role mechanics (defender marking, striker damage, leader healing word, and controller.... something) to choose from that would be changable or recharged upon some condition, in a manner like the Cosmic Sorc's phases or the Wild Sorc's variable pierce/resist.
To clearify, let's say the elemental defender has three ways of punishing his marked target: let's call them A, B, and C. After a rest/daily/being bloodied/using second wind/dealing or receiving a crit, he can choose (or have it randomized) which of the three will be active. We'll say option A was chosen. After using option A, the defender has to choose option B or option C to be his next punishment option.
There could be a PP that enables two of the three options to be available at any given time.
For leaders, this might not be a healing word modifier, but a bonus to specific types of buffs... or even an defensive aura of some type. Controllers might have variable debuff bonuses or an offensive aura.
EDIT: After typing this, I just reailized it might be a little too similar to the Comsic Sorc's mechanic...
Shadow <- Shadowfell
Arcane <- Feywild
Divine <- Astral Sea
Primal <- Elemental Chaos
Martial <- The World
This is odd speculation. I had assumed that the power sources worked (kind of sort of) this way:
Shadow <- Shadowfell
Arcane <- Feywild
Divine <- Astral Sea
Primal <- Elemental Chaos
Martial <- The World
Primal is explicitly not related to the elemental chaos. It is based on the spirits of the material world, which are enemies to the elemental chaos and the far realm.
Arcane: Feywild* (mostly; warlocks can receive power from entities native to the far realm [star pact], shadowfell [dark], astral sea [infernal], or the world/somewhere else [vestige]; while Sorcerers appear to be elemental-chaos-related).
Divine: Astral Sea
Primal: Material World
Martial: Your Body (internal source, not external)
Psionic: Your Mind, Far Realm
Elemental: Elemental Chaos
Shadow: Shadowfell
Can we please stop trying to equate power sources to the planes?
Power sources are, quite simply, how you get your powers. Divine has nothing whatsoever to do with the Astra, it just means that you're powers were granted by a diety (albiet indirectly in some cases).
Likewise Primal powers are granted by Spirits, and Arcane magic is Learned magic.
Regarding the Elemental source, I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing Element-specific classes as there are a couple of big problems with the concept.
Least of all it doesn't account for settings with non-standard elements such as wood, metal, spirit, void or will.
It also doesn't imply a significant difference between how the various classes interact with the power source, but most damningly there's no significant reason to relegate the various elements to a single concept.
Sure, an elemental striker might throw around blasts of flame, but equally likely is that he uses his water-powers to melt his victims, or earth powers to freeze/petrify them.
This is odd speculation. I had assumed that the power sources worked (kind of sort of) this way:
Shadow <- Shadowfell
Arcane <- Feywild
Divine <- Astral Sea
Primal <- Elemental Chaos
Martial <- The WorldPrimal is explicitly not related to the elemental chaos. It is based on the spirits of the material world, which are enemies to the elemental chaos and the far realm.
Arcane: Feywild* (mostly; warlocks can receive power from entities native to the far realm [star pact], shadowfell [dark], astral sea [infernal], or the world/somewhere else [vestige]; while Sorcerers appear to be elemental-chaos-related).
Divine: Astral Sea
Primal: Material World
Martial: Your Body (internal source, not external)
Psionic: Your Mind, Far Realm
Elemental: Elemental Chaos
Shadow: Shadowfell
...funny speculation!
my is:
Martial = material plane
Divine = astral sea
Arcane = the links between the planes
Primal = feywild (spirits and wild nature)
Psionic = far realm (as a reaction)
Shadow = shadowfell (undead & half-real illusion)
...funny speculation!
my is:
Martial = material plane
Divine = astral sea
Arcane = the links between the planes
Primal = feywild (spirits and wild nature)
Psionic = far realm (as a reaction)
Shadow = shadowfell (undead & half-real illusion)
Good.
Can we please stop trying to equate power sources to the planes?
Power sources are, quite simply, how you get your powers. Divine has nothing whatsoever to do with the Astra, it just means that you're powers were granted by a diety (albiet indirectly in some cases).
Likewise Primal powers are granted by Spirits, and Arcane magic is Learned magic.
Better.
Oh gods, not this again.
Can we please stop trying to equate power sources to the planes?
Power sources are, quite simply, how you get your powers. Divine has nothing whatsoever to do with the Astra, it just means that you're powers were granted by a diety (albiet indirectly in some cases).
Likewise Primal powers are granted by Spirits, and Arcane magic is Learned magic.
Okay then...
The KNOWLEDGE of each power source originated from the various planes. The first beings to touch each of the 'external' power sources (i.e. not Martial and Psionic) were from SOMEWHERE so I wouldn't be surprised if it worked out that
First Arcane: Feywild
First Divine: Astral Sea
First Primal: The World
First Shadow: The Shadowfell
First Elemental: The Elemental Chaos
That way the 'power' doesn't come from somewhere but the school of learning it originates from there. Better dictinction now? I think it makes sense considering what we know so far.
Regarding the Elemental source, I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing Element-specific classes as there are a couple of big problems with the concept.
Least of all it doesn't account for settings with non-standard elements such as wood, metal, spirit, void or will.
It also doesn't imply a significant difference between how the various classes interact with the power source, but most damningly there's no significant reason to relegate the various elements to a single concept.
Sure, an elemental striker might throw around blasts of flame, but equally likely is that he uses his water-powers to melt his victims, or earth powers to freeze/petrify them.
I agree. The One Element-One Class idea is silly. I do envision some classes could pick a few 'affinity' from a list of class features (like say 2 out of 5) to better define their build's main and secondary role and that would give certain riders, it would also allow the classes to focus on 1 element round after round if they wish to do so without pigeonholing them forever in that element.
I see lots of dual type powers, lots of variable type ones, lots of on-going damage, demon themed powers, transmutation powers and a Striker who's mechanic is giving vulnerability to the last damage type they inflicted.
Wouldn't it be called the Primordial power source? Elemental seems like it might connotative baggage.
Honestly, I'm interested to see how it turns out, hopefully better than 1/2 of the psionic powersource.
Having a Primordial and Primal Powersource could be confusing.
Looking at the elementals in 4e, I think the powersource will have alot of creation and randomness involved with its powers. Perhaps a lot of changing states.
We don't know how Elemental classes will be unique. I'd suspect either demonic ties, summoning or elemental transmutative themes.
If the Wu-jen and Shugenja were to show up, i'd expect them to be elemental.
I'm hoping they do an elemental ninja class as well.
We might see a Blackguard as the Elemental Controller and maybe a Binder as a more traditional Controller.
But i'd wait for preview material before I placed any bets.
I predict there will be something like the Sha'ir of Al Quadim as a Elemental Controller, and it'll be a controller that uses a Genie as a companion in much the same way a Shaman's spirit companion works.
That sounds like a good class to me. In fact, I'd like to see a theme of the entire power source be summoning of elemental creatures.
Sha'ir
“Destroy those wretched orcs! Your master demands it!”
Role: Controller. The power of a Genie is nearly unlimited, it can devastate and overwhelm your foes, churn and sunder both land and sky; that power is at your command, so be careful what you wish for
Power Source: Elemental. Although a Genie possesses great Elemental power, it is helpless against the mystic strictures and laws that dictate their existence. You have somehow used these rules to gain ownership of a Genie; whether by using guile, influence or perhaps from stumbling into it by sheer luck.
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee
Implement: Orbs, Daggers, Seals
Builds: Efreet’s Bargain and Djinn’s Bargain
Would make a lot of sense as it's quite distinctive and minion / pet work could be a pattern for the Elemental Classes.
Which means the Defender might be a Stand user...
Shaper
"Chaos is all around us, I have learned to bring structure to it; the elements are both my sword and shield."
Role: Defender. You control elemental matter and energy, using your will to shape it and change it, to protect you and your allies and punish your enemies
Power Source: Elemental. You've spent so much time exposed to the ever changing nature of the elemental chaos; you have learned how to bend the elements to your will.
Key Abilities: Wis with Con or Dex
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chain, scale
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Staffs, Rods
Builds: Architect Shaper and Prismatic Shaper
A partial class proof of concept I made for an elemental striker, although it overlaps somewhat with the shaper idea.
Warsmith(tenative name)
"As the tide of battle shifts, so too shall my weapon."
Role: Stiker. You wield a weapon forged to defy the gods themselves. Your fighting style constantly changes during the flow of battle just as the Elemental Chaos. Depending on your choice of class feature and powers, you may lean towards either defender or controller as a secondary role.
Power Source: Elemental. Your chaos blade was forged from the raw essence of the Elemental Chaos and in your hands it unleashes the same upon your foes.
Key Abilities: Con, Str, Int
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide; light shields
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Implements: Ki focus
Bonus to Defenses: +2 Will
Hit Points at First Level: 12 + Con Score
Hit Points per level gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Con Mod
(not messing with skills)
In the last days of the Dawn War, a small number of the remaining primordials sought a method to counter the invokers which wielded the might of the gods themselves. Their solution was to imitate the concept and grant their power to their own followers. Rather than directly connect their followers to the source of their power as the gods did with their followers, the primordials forged blades out of the raw essence of the Elemental Chaos and gave these blades to their most trusted followers. This was not enough to turn the tide fo the war, and the primordials who forged the blades were killed by the gods. These blades, however, could not be destroyed. You have found one of these blades, now referred to as chaos blades, and have managed to unlock the ancient secrets contained within.
Perhaps you are the latest inheritor of a chaos blade passed down from master to apprentice since the end of the Dawn War or perhaps you happened to find the chaos blade in a hoard of treasure early in your adventuring career and have since begun to unravel its mysteries. Or perhaps your blade has been bonded to your soul since before your memories even began. Regardless of your method of acquiring your chaos blade, you weild a weapon forged to slay the gods themselves. What you with that weapon is entirely up to you.
A partial class proof of concept I made for an elemental striker, although it overlaps somewhat with the shaper idea.
Warsmith(tenative name)
"As the tide of battle shifts, so too shall my weapon."Role: Stiker. You wield a weapon forged to defy the gods themselves. Your fighting style constantly changes during the flow of battle just as the Elemental Chaos. Depending on your choice of class feature and powers, you may lean towards either defender or controller as a secondary role.
Power Source: Elemental. Your chaos blade was forged from the raw essence of the Elemental Chaos and in your hands it unleashes the same upon your foes.
Key Abilities: Con, Str, IntArmor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide; light shields
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee, simple ranged, military ranged
Implements: Ki focus
Bonus to Defenses: +2 WillHit Points at First Level: 12 + Con Score
Hit Points per level gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Con Mod(not messing with skills)
In the last days of the Dawn War, a small number of the remaining primordials sought a method to counter the invokers which wielded the might of the gods themselves. Their solution was to imitate the concept and grant their power to their own followers. Rather than directly connect their followers to the source of their power as the gods did with their followers, the primordials forged blades out of the raw essence of the Elemental Chaos and gave these blades to their most trusted followers. This was not enough to turn the tide fo the war, and the primordials who forged the blades were killed by the gods. These blades, however, could not be destroyed. You have found one of these blades, now referred to as chaos blades, and have managed to unlock the ancient secrets contained within.
Perhaps you are the latest inheritor of a chaos blade passed down from master to apprentice since the end of the Dawn War or perhaps you happened to find the chaos blade in a hoard of treasure early in your adventuring career and have since begun to unravel its mysteries. Or perhaps your blade has been bonded to your soul since before your memories even began. Regardless of your method of acquiring your chaos blade, you weild a weapon forged to slay the gods themselves. What you with that weapon is entirely up to you.
A glorified Soulblade ? Can be nice, it would be a Ki-Foci Class i think seeing as you can't buy a +4 Elemental Blade...
A glorified Soulblade ? Can be nice, it would be a Ki-Foci Class i think seeing as you can't buy a +4 Elemental Blade...
Well yeah hence the:
Implements: Ki focus
:p
What if guns and such are an implement for Elemental attacks?
What if Elemental Power doesn't use the Elemental Chaos directly, but refines it into devices?
Rather than shoot Elemental Chaos from your fingers, what if you put it in a device and fire elemental chaos from that.
So we'd have
Elemental Defenders using Gun Blades, blades that can discharge elemental chaos at chosen moments.
Elemental Strikers using Guns, shooting people with Elemental Chaos
Elemental Leaders using Guns / Gun Blades but of different types or to different effect.
Elemental Controllers using Cannons or Gun Staves?
To elaborate on the leader.
Gun Blades might focus on discharging elements that impede people or punish. Shooting Poison or Fire.
Guns focus on hurting people and using high impact shots.
The Leader would focus on using either weapon but rather than burn someone with fire, they might highlight them with a flare or soften them with ice. They would essentially use guns or gun blades to lead the attack rather than directly attack.
And now I want to play a Gun character
In this example of elemental power, Elemental power is similar to modern weapons but in the way Ebberon uses elemental power to power devices.
or at least suitable for onw of the old power sources
many says it's too simple and obvious to be real, but I feel the old division between th 4 classic elements could be really to approach for the 4 classes
and then but all the fluff and mechanics you can also find in these pages, but in begin just having water, fire, earth, air
dude: it's really a typical fantasy thing we are totally missing (no related divine domains, at example)
Meh, I think it sounds cooler too. :D
Entropist“Less is more.”
Role: Striker. Your power to see beyond the veil of the elements to the void beyond has gifted you with dangerous insight; this knowledge can unravel and unmake things into nothing, its truth is bane to all things
Power Source: Elemental. In your search for wisdom and answers, you have found what others are too scared to know; you have found the Elemental Chaos’ answer to all things, the great nothingness, the secrets of the void and its power are yours to keep.Key Abilities: Int with Str or Wis
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee
Implement: Orbs, RodsBuilds: Black Hand Disciple and Void Gaze Disciple
Totemist
"The beings of chaos are power incarnated, and I have learned to incarnate the beings of Chaos"Role: Controller. Your arsenal of mystical augmentations allows you to employ the ravaging tactics and the bewildering power of some of the most feared Elemental creatures known to mortals.
Power Source: Elemental. You tap into the elemental power contained within your collection of trapped souls and demon flesh; you might wield a gorgon's breath as a warrior would wield his weapon.Key Abilities: Con with Str or Dex
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee
Implement: Totems, SealsBuilds: Flesh graft Totemist and Soul meld Totemist
Right off the bat, may I just say that I'd like Wisdom to have absolutely no place in the Elemental Power source. It's already an overused attribute, and nothing about the power source screams Wisdom anyway, so it can take a knee for this one (Did you know there are only 5 classes for which Wisdom is neither a Primary nor a possible Secondary attribute? And that all 5 of those are Strikers?). Anyway, I have no strong feelings in favor of any particular attributes for any of these classes, but I'd like to see some Str/Int combos to favor the Genasi, and some Charisma love in there, just because it's been traditionally associated with Chaotic forces.
I've seen lots of people suggest single element builds, and I really think nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, that's probably my one prediction I expect to stand. There will not be single element classes, nor single element build options. In fact, I'd personally prefer (and hope to have demonstrated) the notion of the classes containing the spirit/essence of the four elements, rather than literally just throwing fireballs and earthquakes (not that those things can't be part of the classes, just that they shouldn't be the only thing).
Actually, I'd like to see the Elemental classes dealing mostly combined types of damage. Not Fire, but Fire and Cold. Not just Lightning, but Acid and Lightning. You know, stuff like that. It will allow the Elemental classes to keep their themes without getting crippled by resists/immunities or forcing each class to have a Resist/Immune penetrating feature. I don't know, specializing in an Element seems like an Arcane thing. Combining them all, now that's the Elemental Chaos.
Anyway, the mechanical theme I'd like to see has been hinted at a couple of times in different classes. The Cosmic Sorcerer and the Runepriest both have elements of it. I'd like to see shifting Aspects tied to the elements. Every class would have four aspect options, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, that they could somehow alter, and the Aspect chosen would change their core feature. So, the Defender could have four different punishment features, the Striker could have four different damage boosting features, the Leader could have four different buffing features, and the Controller could have four different status inflicting features. You could then have interesting powers that alter the Aspects temporarily, or let you stack two at once for an attack, or all sorts of other things like that.
For reference, I am assuming that each class has the ability to change their Elemental Aspect as a minor action (or maybe a move action, if you don't want it to be so mutable).
Here's some hypothetical ideas for the different class's aspect features (note, that I do not know what precise numbers would be balanced, so I'm just going to use X every time a number comes up):
Elemental Controller
Conjure the Elements
At-Will ~ Elemental
Free Action Close Burst 20
Trigger: You hit an enemy with an Elemental attack power.
Target: The triggering enemy.
Air: You slide the target X squares.
Earth: You create a zone in a burst X centered on the target that lasts until the end of your next turn. If the target ends its turn in the zone, the target is knocked prone.
Fire: The target takes a -X penalty to all attacks until the end of your next turn.
Water: Until the end of your next turn, the target grants Combat Advantage to your allies.
Special: This power may only be used once per turn. During a round in which you spent an action point, you can use this power one additional time.
They would then have a normal suite of Controller style powers, slightly toned down to compensate for the free control bonus.
At-Will ~ Elemental
Free Action Close Burst 20
Trigger: You hit an enemy with an Elemental attack power.
Target: The triggering enemy.
Air: You slide the target X squares.
Earth: You create a zone in a burst X centered on the target that lasts until the end of your next turn. If the target ends its turn in the zone, the target is knocked prone.
Fire: The target takes a -X penalty to all attacks until the end of your next turn.
Water: Until the end of your next turn, the target grants Combat Advantage to your allies.
Special: This power may only be used once per turn. During a round in which you spent an action point, you can use this power one additional time.
They would then have a normal suite of Controller style powers, slightly toned down to compensate for the free control bonus.
I've just had a bizzare thought, part inspired by the Warshaper.
What if guns and such are an implement for Elemental attacks?
What if Elemental Power doesn't use the Elemental Chaos directly, but refines it into devices?
Rather than shoot Elemental Chaos from your fingers, what if you put it in a device and fire elemental chaos from that.
So we'd have
Elemental Defenders using Gun Blades, blades that can discharge elemental chaos at chosen moments.
Elemental Strikers using Guns, shooting people with Elemental Chaos
Elemental Leaders using Guns / Gun Blades but of different types or to different effect.
Elemental Controllers using Cannons or Gun Staves?
To elaborate on the leader.
Gun Blades might focus on discharging elements that impede people or punish. Shooting Poison or Fire.
Guns focus on hurting people and using high impact shots.
The Leader would focus on using either weapon but rather than burn someone with fire, they might highlight them with a flare or soften them with ice. They would essentially use guns or gun blades to lead the attack rather than directly attack.
And now I want to play a Gun character
In this example of elemental power, Elemental power is similar to modern weapons but in the way Ebberon uses elemental power to power devices.
I doubt we will ever see anything resembling a gun in 4e unless it pops up in a specific campaign setting.
Warsmith makes me think of Dak'kon from Planescape: Torment.
Who? *checks wikipedia* Oh sweet, my idea has some precedent from a prior edition! So was the karach blade somethingfrom pen and paper or was it just invented for Planescape: Torment?
Right off the bat, may I just say that I'd like Wisdom to have absolutely no place in the Elemental Power source. It's already an overused attribute, and nothing about the power source screams Wisdom anyway, so it can take a knee for this one (Did you know there are only 5 classes for which Wisdom is neither a Primary nor a possible Secondary attribute? And that all 5 of those are Strikers?). Anyway, I have no strong feelings in favor of any particular attributes for any of these classes, but I'd like to see some Str/Int combos to favor the Genasi, and some Charisma love in there, just because it's been traditionally associated with Chaotic forces.
i like how you think. +1
I've seen lots of people suggest single element builds, and I really think nothing could be further from the truth.
agreed.
4e took elementals away from single energy types to multiple energy types (technically, single energy types still exist, but have not yet been statted out in 4e). granted, archons are single energy type creatures, but they are "fabricated" creatures; thus, they do not truly represent the native fauna of the elemental chaos.
i think that the elemental power source would follow this fashion.
I'd personally prefer (and hope to have demonstrated) the notion of the classes containing the spirit/essence of the four elements . . . .
there are far more than four elements present in the elemental chaos.
this is one area where wotc would have a lot of "clay" with which to mold. i hope that each of the elemental power source classes makes use of every element/energy in as many combinations and permutations as possible.
in fact, i think that it would be best if each of those classes' key class features not be tied to any particular element; instead, those features should function independently from and irrespective of the particular elements, so as to allow the widest breadth of power choices for v-shaped classes (offering build-specific riders for each power, which is where the class feature and the particular element would finally be enmeshed).
Actually, I'd like to see the Elemental classes dealing mostly combined types of damage. Not Fire, but Fire and Cold. Not just Lightning, but Acid and Lightning. You know, stuff like that. It will allow the Elemental classes to keep their themes without getting crippled by resists/immunities or forcing each class to have a Resist/Immune penetrating feature. I don't know, specializing in an Element seems like an Arcane thing. Combining them all, now that's the Elemental Chaos.
yes. yes. a thousand times, yes.
on another note, i, too, am excited to see a version of summoning that calls elemental creatures to aid the players. to me, it is nearly as icon as the undead summoner and the primal/beast summoner.
I doubt we will ever see anything resembling a gun in 4e unless it pops up in a specific campaign setting.
Like ebberon?
Or rather, a lot of technology in Ebberon runs on elementals being trapped or contained and used as a power source.
What if Elemental is the same idea?
It'd be unique and largely different to what already exists and would justify the Elemental power source fully.
Admitably, it's very unlikely but it's also an exciting prospect.
Who?
You must go play Planescape: Torment now. No excuses.
So was the karach blade somethingfrom pen and paper or was it just invented for Planescape: Torment?
That I do not *know*. ;P I started playing traditional D&D when 3.5 was out. It'll be nice if it was - the name could be reused for a class idea similar to yours.
Actually, I'd like to see the Elemental classes dealing mostly combined types of damage. Not Fire, but Fire and Cold. Not just Lightning, but Acid and Lightning. You know, stuff like that. It will allow the Elemental classes to keep their themes without getting crippled by resists/immunities or forcing each class to have a Resist/Immune penetrating feature. I don't know, specializing in an Element seems like an Arcane thing. Combining them all, now that's the Elemental Chaos.
A small change I'd make to this is have the amount of damage types used be proportional to level.
At first level you might be flinging around simple bolts of fire, but at thirty we should be seeing Radiant-Fire-Lightning or Necrotic-Acid-Ice.
Whilst the idea of elemental aspects is interesting, I doubt we'd see them for more than one class, partially because they're a little restrictive, partially to prevent the classes becoming too samey.
I doubt we will ever see anything resembling a gun in 4e unless it pops up in a specific campaign setting.
Like ebberon?
The problem with guns in fantasy settings, especially DnD, is that there's no reason for them to exist.
Anyone smart and well funded enough to develop firearms is smart and well funded enough to learn magic (why build a device to unreliably fire small leaden pellets when you can shoot flame from your fingertips?), and thanks to enchanted weaponry there's no real advantage in combat either.
Sure, you can try declaring them implements instead, but then all you've really got is a funny looking wand.
Lastly, can we please not have any more of this "Entropy = Chaos" stuff? It's just wrong.
Entropy is the triumph of Order over Chaos.
It's also a concept, which when combined with it's lawful aspect puts it firmly in the armoury of the Dieties.
Specifically Tharizdun.
Lastly, can we please not have any more of this "Entropy = Chaos" stuff? It's just wrong.
Entropy is the triumph of Order over Chaos.
It's also a concept, which when combined with it's lawful aspect puts it firmly in the armoury of the Dieties.
Specifically Tharizdun.
I was under the impression that they were related. The Void Genasi certainly suggests there is a connection.
A small change I'd make to this is have the amount of damage types used be proportional to level.
At first level you might be flinging around simple bolts of fire, but at thirty we should be seeing Radiant-Fire-Lightning or Necrotic-Acid-Ice.
Oh, I agree. I built the striker feature that way.
Whilst the idea of elemental aspects is interesting, I doubt we'd see them for more than one class, partially because they're a little restrictive, partially to prevent the classes becoming too samey.
I don't actually expect to see them at all. But I don't think a power source theme like that is out of the question.
The fact that all the Martial Classes use only weapons isn't too samey. The fact that every divine class gets Channel Divinity doesn't feel too samey. The fact that three out of four Psionic classes use the augmentable at-will powers instead of encounter powers thing doesn't feel samey. Actually, now that I think about it, I guess the 3 Psionic classes do feel sort of bland and generic. Hmm, you might have a point, but I did try to keep the actual features pretty different in practive, even though they shared themes.
Again, though, not that it really matters. I'm just flexing some creative muscles.
The problem with guns in fantasy settings, especially DnD, is that there's no reason for them to exist.
Anyone smart and well funded enough to develop firearms is smart and well funded enough to learn magic (why build a device to unreliably fire small leaden pellets when you can shoot flame from your fingertips?), and thanks to enchanted weaponry there's no real advantage in combat either.
Well, I think you're right to a point.
The issue, though, is that smart, well funded people in the real world don't go fight monsters, they hire people to do it. Those people that get hired are not necessarily smart enough nor well funded enough to learn magic, and for them, guns actually make sense.
But D&D world doesn't work like that. In D&D world, people that slay monsters never just go and retire, they take their money, reinvest it in better magic gear, and go kick bigger monster's [donkey]. Thus, there's really no place for the kind of soldier for whom a gun would be helpful. Actually, come to think of it, there's really no place for regular armies of regular soldiers. Hmm, that's probably a discussion for another thread.
I agree that there will never be guns in the core D&D world, nor are they needed. I, myself ran a D&D game set in a Wild West style world, and I just used slightly modified Crossbow stats for the guns (no reload between shots, minor or move action to reload after set number of shots). Worked like a charm.
Lastly, can we please not have any more of this "Entropy = Chaos" stuff? It's just wrong.
Entropy is the triumph of Order over Chaos.
Interesting philosophical point:
Chaos is actually Ordered, it's just ordered in such a way that we can't comprehend it currently. But yes, in general, Entropy is more ordered, not less, so I agree with you.
The problem with guns in fantasy settings, especially DnD, is that there's no reason for them to exist.
Anyone smart and well funded enough to develop firearms is smart and well funded enough to learn magic (why build a device to unreliably fire small leaden pellets when you can shoot flame from your fingertips?), and thanks to enchanted weaponry there's no real advantage in combat either.
Sure, you can try declaring them implements instead, but then all you've really got is a funny looking wand.
Few things.
1) For a gun using class, It's not a matter of a character investing in guns, it's a matter of being able to hit with them reliably. You don't just go to a shop and buy a gun a crack shot in them, and if you can enchant weapons you can enchant guns and bullets and do odd things with bullets like make them explode. If you get shot with a bullet from a rifle, it's likely to be as effective as shooting fire from your hands, but you don't have to spend years training to shoot fire from your hands because you can just shoot things with a gun with explosive bullets.
2) If you actually read my suggestion, it's closer to gun like implements, however there are mechanics related to gun play that can be drawn out, namely bullet type and loading.
What's more they don't have to be like bullet guns, they can be rifles or shoot streams of energy.
There's a lot of potential to using guns or gun like weapons, or anything that discharges and launches elemental power.
Why learn dark elemental secrets when you can pick up a device and pull the trigger?
Why teach dark elemental secrets when you can give someone a device and tell them to pull the trigger?
1) For a gun using class,
...I don't thing it's working for a class, since it's more equipment, more weaponary stuff
more like a Weapon Multiclassing "learn to use these"
but a class should be still effective without weapon / implement (less attack, less damage, use just fists, but should work just worse)
wizards can fore bolts from the fingers: just worse than throug staffs
fighters use bare hands: worse but possible
but a rifleman without a rifle it's just nothing, IMHO
otherwise, guns are a strange concept in fantasy, and althought interesting, they have little to do with "elemental power source"
ShowUnlike my predictions for the Monk and Druid two years ago (turned out I was right about a lot of that stuff), I really have no expections about my guesses being even close to right. These are really more, "what I think could be cool," rather than things I'd actually expect to see.
Right off the bat, may I just say that I'd like Wisdom to have absolutely no place in the Elemental Power source. It's already an overused attribute, and nothing about the power source screams Wisdom anyway, so it can take a knee for this one (Did you know there are only 5 classes for which Wisdom is neither a Primary nor a possible Secondary attribute? And that all 5 of those are Strikers?). Anyway, I have no strong feelings in favor of any particular attributes for any of these classes, but I'd like to see some Str/Int combos to favor the Genasi, and some Charisma love in there, just because it's been traditionally associated with Chaotic forces.
I've seen lots of people suggest single element builds, and I really think nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, that's probably my one prediction I expect to stand. There will not be single element classes, nor single element build options. In fact, I'd personally prefer (and hope to have demonstrated) the notion of the classes containing the spirit/essence of the four elements, rather than literally just throwing fireballs and earthquakes (not that those things can't be part of the classes, just that they shouldn't be the only thing).
Actually, I'd like to see the Elemental classes dealing mostly combined types of damage. Not Fire, but Fire and Cold. Not just Lightning, but Acid and Lightning. You know, stuff like that. It will allow the Elemental classes to keep their themes without getting crippled by resists/immunities or forcing each class to have a Resist/Immune penetrating feature. I don't know, specializing in an Element seems like an Arcane thing. Combining them all, now that's the Elemental Chaos.
Anyway, the mechanical theme I'd like to see has been hinted at a couple of times in different classes. The Cosmic Sorcerer and the Runepriest both have elements of it. I'd like to see shifting Aspects tied to the elements. Every class would have four aspect options, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, that they could somehow alter, and the Aspect chosen would change their core feature. So, the Defender could have four different punishment features, the Striker could have four different damage boosting features, the Leader could have four different buffing features, and the Controller could have four different status inflicting features. You could then have interesting powers that alter the Aspects temporarily, or let you stack two at once for an attack, or all sorts of other things like that.
For reference, I am assuming that each class has the ability to change their Elemental Aspect as a minor action (or maybe a move action, if you don't want it to be so mutable).
Here's some hypothetical ideas for the different class's aspect features (note, that I do not know what precise numbers would be balanced, so I'm just going to use X every time a number comes up):Elemental ControllerConjure the Elements
At-Will ~ Elemental
Free Action Close Burst 20
Trigger: You hit an enemy with an Elemental attack power.
Target: The triggering enemy.
Air: You slide the target X squares.
Earth: You create a zone in a burst X centered on the target that lasts until the end of your next turn. If the target ends its turn in the zone, the target is knocked prone.
Fire: The target takes a -X penalty to all attacks until the end of your next turn.
Water: Until the end of your next turn, the target grants Combat Advantage to your allies.
Special: This power may only be used once per turn. During a round in which you spent an action point, you can use this power one additional time.
They would then have a normal suite of Controller style powers, slightly toned down to compensate for the free control bonus.
Lastly, can we please not have any more of this "Entropy = Chaos" stuff? It's just wrong.
Entropy is the triumph of Order over Chaos.
It's also a concept, which when combined with it's lawful aspect puts it firmly in the armoury of the Dieties.
Specifically Tharizdun.
I was under the impression that they were related. The Void Genasi certainly suggests there is a connection.
I don't know about this Entropy = Chaos stuff but if we look at the lore of the universe we see:
The primordials created the titans as helpers to create a world out of the creation-stuffs that eddied between the Elemental Chaos and the Astral Sea, discarding bits which are too bright or too dark. These pieces clustered into the Feywild and the Shadowfell. The world was then one of elemental fury, engulfed in an endless cycle of destruction and rebuilding. (DMG, p.161; W&M, p.56)
A fearsome primordial dubbed the Master of Tides strode the planes. This entity was less patient than its primordial kin; wherever it traveled, it ripped apart whatever structures it discovered, leaving raw entropy in its wake. Even the planes themselves offended its sense of chaos, and it tore rifts between them as it moved. (Dr383, p. 46)
In the beginning, giants of every kind labored long for their elemental overseers to construct a place of ever-shifting primordial wonder, in the perfect image of the Elemental Chaos that had birthed it. (SotEC, p.58)
This tells me the primordials and the elemental chaos are less interested in the permanence of things. Contrast this with
The gods looked down from the Astral Sea and saw what the primordials had created. They coveted this world, because they understood how to make it better (DR372, p.26)
Fascinated with the new world, the gods attempted to improve on the primordials’ work. They created natural life, tamed the churning elements, and created the sun and moon in the world. Some sources claimed that angels were formed out of the astral essences as divine assistants to create mortal races during this time. (DMG, p.161; W&M, p.56)
Order, perfection, "better-ness" is what I get out of that.
I do note that "natural life" is apparently not in the sphere of primoridials like I originally thought. Shame.
... partially to prevent the classes becoming too samey.
Too samey, or a uniting element? Like divine classes (barring runepriest) are united by Channel Divinity? Like psionic classes (barring monk) are united by power points? I feel that they're a good analog for what's being presented - a related mechanic for each class, but a variant for each class, not exactly the same for each.
I think the element should be the central fluff, with some related mechanics but also much more related in general to "elemental power"
so, as exaple, a "fire-striker" coulb have "ignore (secondary-stat-mod value)" fire resistance and once per-encounter you can change / substitute / add the fire keyword and damage of one your elemental attack
I think it's obvious these classes should have versatile damages and not the have related to the basic fluff: I think to the old mephits, elemental of half-elements, as example of mixing elements
or something like this
but, even if I support the "versatile damage issue" I don't think the fluff of the classes will be related strongly to the caos of the plane below, but a bit more to the iconic elements
like this:
My one suggested change is to NOT make the elemental defender a "weapliment" user like the swordmage. Make it an implement user like the monk. Weapons? I don't need no stinking weapon. I'll just turn my fists to stone and then light them on fire.
A monk's fists *are* his weapliments. Psions are the implement using Psionic class.
A monk's fists *are* his weapliments. Psions are the implement using Psionic class.
I'm going to have to disagree there. Ki foci are a monk's implements. Barring what Psionic Power will bring, monk attack powers have the implement keyword, and the damage die is set by the attack, not whether you're using a fist, a staff, or some more exotic martial arts weapon. The monk is a melee-range implement user currently.
But honestly, I think this is a quibble. Whether or not we call the monk a weapon or implement user, the point I was making stands: the monk (and what I'd like to see for an elemental defender) is less reliant on weapons for attacks. They can use their fist just as effectively as anything else, and so often choose to forgo using something other than their fist.
A monk's fists *are* his weapliments. Psions are the implement using Psionic class.
I'm going to have to disagree there. Ki foci are a monk's implements. Barring what Psionic Power will bring, monk attack powers have the implement keyword, and the damage die is set by the attack, not whether you're using a fist, a staff, or some more exotic martial arts weapon. The monk is a melee-range implement user currently.
Barring what Psionic Power will bring, monk attack powers have the implement keyword, and the damage die is set by the attack, not whether you're using a fist, a staff, or some more exotic martial arts weapon.
That's the way I read their Implements section BUT there are other threads on that so lets drop that for now.
But honestly, I think this is a quibble. Whether or not we call the monk a weapon or implement user, the point I was making stands: the monk (and what I'd like to see for an elemental defender) is less reliant on weapons for attacks. They can use their fist just as effectively as anything else, and so often choose to forgo using something other than their fist.
Seems like a tricky balance for a defender. Seems like you could easily become a swordmage clone (your attacks are close range to protect against OA but your Defenderness is at range) or a paladin clone (no range) or risk becoming a wizard-like Defender (Defenderness from the back rank) which seems to have too many upsides.
What were you thinking in terms of how their powers might play out?
Lastly, can we please not have any more of this "Entropy = Chaos" stuff? It's just wrong.
Entropy is the triumph of Order over Chaos.
It's also a concept, which when combined with it's lawful aspect puts it firmly in the armoury of the Dieties.
Specifically Tharizdun.
I was under the impression that they were related. The Void Genasi certainly suggests there is a connection.
"A" connection yes. Remember, the void genasi are genasi who have been tainted by the Abyss, and it could well be argued that the Abyss is nothing more than Chaos that has been infected by Order / Entropy. It was even created by Tharizdun, which fits.
Come to think of it, was the Abyss formed because of the Shard at it's heart, or because a diety exerted direct influence on the Chaos?
A) Deal an extra Z damage to the target.
B) Make a secondary attack that is close burst 1 centered on (and including) the target. The secondary attack targets enemies only.
I'm not envisioning ranged attacks. I'm envisioning melee range implement powers just like the monk. But without the emphasis on mobility. Instead, with the resilience of stone, they can just charge heedlessly through their foes. Actually, I've included similar mechanics in a different class here:
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
The idea is to have class features and powers that mitigate the damage from AoOs or that grant benefits for provoking them: you gain resist against AoO, getting hit grants you temp hp, getting hit lets you deal more damage, or enemies that make an attack against you get a free action attack from you after their own attack.
That aside, I hadn't really planned on working out this elemental defender. But at least what I'm imagining is something like the monk as a defender but with all supernatural effects and without the disciplined fluff. These guys are engines of chaos. So I guess a bit like a barbarian then.
"A" connection yes. Remember, the void genasi are genasi who have been tainted by the Abyss, and it could well be argued that the Abyss is nothing more than Chaos that has been infected by Order / Entropy. It was even created by Tharizdun, which fits.
Come to think of it, was the Abyss formed because of the Shard at it's heart, or because a diety exerted direct influence on the Chaos?
All of the mythology that they've written about the 4ed Abyss that I've read has put the blame solely on the shard. Dieties exerting their power on the Chaos just produces things like the world(and primal spirits). Prior to the dieties doing anything, the world pretty much was just part of the Elemental Chaos. The Abyss is the end result of the Elemental Chaos being infected by the Far Realm.
"A" connection yes. Remember, the void genasi are genasi who have been tainted by the Abyss, and it could well be argued that the Abyss is nothing more than Chaos that has been infected by Order / Entropy. It was even created by Tharizdun, which fits.
Come to think of it, was the Abyss formed because of the Shard at it's heart, or because a diety exerted direct influence on the Chaos?
Ok so maybe Entropy ≠ Elemental chaos; but from what you guys have been saying it sounds like Entropy is more related to Elemental Power than any other power source, as it is some sort of anti Chaos, so I would still think it would be an Elemental class.
In D&D terms, entropy has historically been tied to chaos and negative energy. For instance, there is Ygorl who is the slaad lord of entropy and the negative energy plane in previous editions has been linked to stagnation and entropy. Even if this doesn't really sync with the scientific meaning of entropy (universe tending towards uniform distribution of matter and energy), it is the precedent set by existing D&D fluff.
That said, I think the entropist concept would work best in 4E as part of the shadow power source since the Shadowfell has largely inherited the decay aspects of the negative energy plane.
In D&D terms, entropy has historically been tied to chaos and negative energy. For instance, there is Ygorl who is the slaad lord of entropy and the negative energy plane in previous editions has been linked to stagnation and entropy. Even if this doesn't really sync with the scientific meaning of entropy (universe tending towards uniform distribution of matter and energy), it is the precedent set by existing D&D fluff.
That said, I think the entropist concept would work best in 4E as part of the shadow power source since the Shadowfell has largely inherited the decay aspects of the negative energy plane.
4e has retconned the use of the term Entropy, amongst many other terminologies such as "evocation," to reflect on their proper usage in the real world.
In previous editions, entropy may have meant shards of annihilation, but that's no longer the case.
4e has retconned the use of the term Entropy, amongst many other terminologies such as "evocation," to reflect on their proper usage in the real world.
In previous editions, entropy may have meant shards of annihilation, but that's no longer the case.
I'm curious where you've seen it retconned. I've seen plenty of usage in 4E that matches the usage in older versions, for instance:
Wild Mage Paragon Path: "The entropy of the Elemental Chaos flows in your veins."
Weaver of Chance Paragon Path: "You can store and channel the entropic flux that surrounds you. This barely controlled chaos is represented by a pool of entropy points."
Ygorl: "The best known and most dreaded is Ygorl, Lord of Entropy, also known as the Bringer of Endings. He is the shadow cast by the Elemental Chaos; wherever he travels, death follows. Plants wither, animals sicken, and color leaches from the surroundings. All who behold him see their demise reflected in his cold, uncaring eyes."
Lich: The Lich has an entropic pulse attack that is fluffed as entropy and in game terms deals necrotic damage.
The only new thing I've seen is some tying of entropy to the Far Realm such as the Entropic Fissure hazard from the Manual of the Planes.
Fluff-wise, any elemental-style effect would make just as much sense in a class that already exists. Sorcerer, swordmage, artificer, and wizard already have the elemental ground pretty well covered.
I really don't see this elemental power source happening at all. It's too similar to arcane.
Fluff-wise, any elemental-style effect would make just as much sense in a class that already exists. Sorcerer, swordmage, artificer, and wizard already have the elemental ground pretty well covered.
I would say, though, that pretty much everything is covered by Arcane. Arcane is a power source with no strong theme. It's just "stuff that used to be arcane in previous editions, plus the Swordmage (which is pretty much a full classed version of several different Fighter/Mage Prestige Classes)."
Truly, the Wizard and Sorcerer could easily have been Elemental (hell, especially the Sorcerer--for the longest time, everyone assumed it would, in fact, be Elemental). The Bard could have been Primal. The Swordmage could have been Elemental, it could have been the Psionic Defender, or hell, it could have allowed the Ki power source to exist and been the Ki Defender. The Warlock could have been the first class whose power source was dependent on its build feature (Fey = Primal, Infernal = Elemental, Star = Psionic, Dark = Shadow, Vestige = Divine).
Arcane is the power source whose individual members have the least in common with each other, and it has caused quite a few power source issues. I would not use it as a guideline for what can and cannot exist.
Power Sources determine how you get (and to a lesser extent use) your abilities. It may suggest themes for the powers associated with it, but these themes are in no way exclusive.
Arcane magic is dedicated to the "Knowledge Based Ability" theme. A wizard may have the ability to lob a Fireball at his foes' nadgers, but only because he spent many a night learning about the secret laws of reality and how susceptible they are to bribery.
So kind of a "kill them before they kill anyone else" Defender? Not my favorite application of the role but I think I see where you're coming from.
I guess so. But you'll certainly attract a lot of attention being the maelstrom of destruction charging through the battlefield.
Arcane magic is dedicated to the "Knowledge Based Ability" theme.
Except for the Bards that fake it. Or the Sorcerers who are born with it. Or the Warlocks who barter for it.
The only actually knowledge based Arcane classes are the Artificer, Swordmage, and Wizard.
Arcane magic is dedicated to the "Knowledge Based Ability" theme.
Except for the Bards that fake it. Or the Sorcerers who are born with it. Or the Warlocks who barter for it.
The only actually knowledge based Arcane classes are the Artificer, Swordmage, and Wizard.
Not to mention Runepriests, who abilities are no less knowledge based than a Swardmages.
Not to mention Runepriests, who abilities are no less knowledge based than a Swardmages.
Um, aren't Runepriests Divine?
Um, aren't Runepriests Divine?
I'm pretty sure that was his point.
Arcane magic is dedicated to the "Knowledge Based Ability" theme.
Except for the Bards that fake it. Or the Sorcerers who are born with it. Or the Warlocks who barter for it.
The only actually knowledge based Arcane classes are the Artificer, Swordmage, and Wizard.
Bards learn songs.
Sorcerers are have with innate knowledge. They know without learning.
Warlocks barter for the knowledge. They perform service X and are taught spell Y in return. Ok, maybe more "get the knowledge seared into thier brains whether they like it or not", but still.
The runepriest is academic in as much as it's based around memorizing a series of symbols without any underlying comprehension of why they do what they do, and it's trumped by divine's "Power of the Dieties" theme, in much the same way that the Swordmage isn't martial.
Bards learn songs.
Sorcerers are have with innate knowledge. They know without learning.
Warlocks barter for the knowledge. They perform service X and are taught spell Y in return. Ok, maybe more "get the knowledge seared into thier brains whether they like it or not", but still.
The runepriest is academic in as much as it's based around memorizing a series of symbols without any underlying comprehension of why they do what they do, and it's trumped by divine's "Power of the Dieties" theme, in much the same way that the Swordmage isn't martial.
I think you are making a very silly and at least mildly inaccurate distinction. Saying that Arcane is the only power source that is allowed to have "Knowledge Based Ability" is just silly. All power sources are based around knowledge in some form or another, and any class is able to have their powers based solely on knowledge with either very minor or no refluff at all. Nothing says that martial characters have to spend hours continually practicing their art, they can spend their time studying manuals written by masters and then applying the knowledge learned within for the first time in the midst of battle. (I really don't feel like dragging this point out so I'm skipping past the other power sources).
The inaccuracy is the claim that runepriests don't comprehend why they are doing what they do. Assuming that was even true, how would that be any different from bards who in your words "learn songs." Runepriests learn runes. There is nothing which states that bards comprehend why they do what they do. Runepriests however have an epic destiny where their knowledge of runes is so great that they are able to create new ones. I think that is more than enough evidence that at least some runepriests have a very detailed understanding of how the runes work.
The Warlock could have been the first class whose power source was dependent on its build feature (Fey = Primal, Infernal = Elemental, Star = Psionic, Dark = Shadow, Vestige = Divine).
But still primal spirits don't have anything to do with the fey...
I think you are making a very silly and at least mildly inaccurate distinction. Saying that Arcane is the only power source that is allowed to have "Knowledge Based Ability" is just silly. All power sources are based around knowledge in some form or another, and any class is able to have their powers based solely on knowledge with either very minor or no refluff at all. Nothing says that martial characters have to spend hours continually practicing their art, they can spend their time studying manuals written by masters and then applying the knowledge learned within for the first time in the midst of battle. (I really don't feel like dragging this point out so I'm skipping past the other power sources).
Wait, so your argument why Knowledge can't be arcane's theme is that other classes can be refluffed? *honest confusion*
In any case, I'm not saying that knowledge isn't present in the other sources, i'm saying it's arcane's defining feature, like divine's connection to the gods.
The inaccuracy is the claim that runepriests don't comprehend why they are doing what they do. Assuming that was even true, how would that be any different from bards who in your words "learn songs." Runepriests learn runes. There is nothing which states that bards comprehend why they do what they do. Runepriests however have an epic destiny where their knowledge of runes is so great that they are able to create new ones. I think that is more than enough evidence that at least some runepriests have a very detailed understanding of how the runes work.
Ok, I may have overreacted a bit with the runepriest, but let's be honest. The only reason the runeprist is divine is because the runes were created by the dieties. If the source of the runes was left abstract then it would be arcane through and through.
I'll note that the fact that for runepriests creating a new "spell" is an epic level challenge is a good sign that the majority don't really understand how thier powers work, but that's a personal quible and not really argument-worthy.
Wait, so your argument why Knowledge can't be arcane's theme is that other classes can be refluffed? *honest confusion*
In any case, I'm not saying that knowledge isn't present in the other sources, i'm saying it's arcane's defining feature, like divine's connection to the gods.
Well if I were to make a more solid and well thought out explanation of my argument, it is that power sources relate to where the power comes from(hence source) not in how the people access the power(with a possible exception for Shadow classes where the two are the same). What unifies the Arcane classes isn't knowledge;as any character Arcane or otherwise is free to choose to be as ignorant or knowledgable as their player chooses. What unifies the Arcane class is that they all draw upon the Arcane energy that permuates all of existence (and is the most vague concept in all of 4ed).
Arcane implies schools of learning. All the fluff ties to disciplines of learning, whether it's in the sciences, arts, or whatever. Even Sorcerers study at Arcane Colleges.
In fact, many power sources deal with training prior to becoming a PC. Clerics, Avengers, and Paladins are invested through holy rites, while Invokers channel directly from the deities and Runepriests studied in holy libraries and other sacred places where Divine Runes were carved.
The Warlock could have been the first class whose power source was dependent on its build feature (Fey = Primal, Infernal = Elemental, Star = Psionic, Dark = Shadow, Vestige = Divine).
But still primal spirits don't have anything to do with the fey...
Neither do devils have much in common with the Elemental Chaos. Infernal powers are rather fire themed though.
Neither do devils have much in common with the Elemental Chaos. Infernal powers are rather fire themed though.
I admittedly was thinking the Infernal pact was with demons, not devils.
And I know the Primal source is not from the Feywild, but it'd certainly have made more sense. I mean, isn't the Feywild, you know, Primal Wilderness?
Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread. The whole point initially was that the presence of the Arcane classes might prevent the Elemental Power Source from seeing the light of day, and I think, if that happens, it is only because the Arcane power source is ill defined.
I admittedly was thinking the Infernal pact was with demons, not devils.
With power names such as Flames of Phlegethos it's quite surely a devil thing.
Feywild is a bit more unreal than your usual primal forest. It's likely greener than it should be, rather eerie and unnatural. At least that's how I understand the word "fey" (which my native language has no equivalent of).
Primal makes me think of cavemen :P
The whole point initially was that the presence of the Arcane classes might prevent the Elemental Power Source from seeing the light of day, and I think, if that happens, it is only because the Arcane power source is ill defined.
But WotC said that the Elemental Power Source had shown "proof of concept" - that, in their opinion, unlike with the ki power source, it had enough unique stuff to it to develop into several unique classes. I'm pretty sure it's already been cited earlier in this very thread.
And no, the Feywild isn't quite primal wilderness. It's inherently magical wilderness, with some traits exaggerated.
We will not know until late 2011 as shadow is the next slated power source for PHB4. That power source maybe be the last we see for 4th but I would not be surprised if the elemental source makes it to print.
While I heavily disagree with you on the first portion of your post, I think I'll just focus on this comment instead as the rest of my disagreements come down to opinion. So do you have a source on the portion of your post I bolded? I am unaware of any comments, leaks, or previews that reveal this nugget of information.As we have heard nothing regarding the elemental source to date and already have one shadow class just read between the lines. The shadow source has alot more things to bring into D&D than the elemental source does and did wizards not list elemental last in its list of power sources that was released when 4th edition launched. As far as the classes that people have posted I have seen nothing that brings anything worth while to the game that could not be accomplished with a build of an existing class. New classes should bring something new to the game that is not already present and so far I have seen no ideas posted here that do that. Is it a matter of my opinion yes but are the posted classes the same thing.
So we have a single shadow class that is not going to be reprinted as the only thing in favor of Shadow. Far from overwhelming evidence. Definatly falls short of being able to claim it with a strong degree of certainty. And frankly, the argument you put forth against the elemental classes could be done to the shadow classes as well. They could be said to add nothing that can't be accomplished with a build of an existing class. However a WotC employee has stated that both elemental and shadow have been proven as concepts, so we should end up with both eventually.
P.S. Double check your PHB1, elemental is mentioned in there.
Of course it also had a picture of a "primal blaster" that would one day be the seeker.
But I belive that elementalist was the first test name for an implement using class.
Well if I were to make a more solid and well thought out explanation of my argument, it is that power sources relate to where the power comes from(hence source) not in how the people access the power(with a possible exception for Shadow classes where the two are the same). What unifies the Arcane classes isn't knowledge;as any character Arcane or otherwise is free to choose to be as ignorant or knowledgable as their player chooses. What unifies the Arcane class is that they all draw upon the Arcane energy that permuates all of existence (and is the most vague concept in all of 4ed).
Whilst a valid concept, the idea that each power source deals with a distinct origin rankles somewhat, as it smacks of unnecessary complexity.
That is, if we already have one way of rending the fabric of reality in twain, do really need another?
It also raises questions about why each of the sources can effect the other, and which source racial or monster powers draw from. These questions are easily dismissed, but why even go to the bother when there is alternative that negates them entirely?
Whilst I disagree with AH_Stormbringer about the value of the elemental power source, I do agree that it's more likely that shadow will come out first as it already existed in 3.X as a distinct entity where elemental did not.
Whilst a valid concept, the idea that each power source deals with a distinct origin rankles somewhat, as it smacks of unnecessary complexity.
How the heck is saying that Power Sources are the source of a class's power unnecessarily complex? That is as basic of a definition as you can get.That is, if we already have one way of rending the fabric of reality in twain, do really need another?
Yes? Look at the sum total of human development. We develop semi-redudant technologies all the time for various reasons. Generally becasue one of the technologies has some kind of advantage that the other one doesn't. Do we need solar power when we already had hydrolic power figured out? Yes becasue some places are better suited to one or the other. Likewise it would be easy to imagine that different people are just better at accessing certain energy sources(that naturally existed) capable of "rending the fabric of reality in twain" in a D&D world.
It also raises questions about why each of the sources can effect the other, and which source racial or monster powers draw from. These questions are easily dismissed, but why even go to the bother when there is alternative that negates them entirely?
Why wouldn't the power sources be able to effect each other? I'm not sure why you would have that idea, so I have no idea of how to respond to it.
Racial and monster powers generally don't draw upon any power source(with exceptions for gods, primordials, primal spirits if we ever get some, and similar creatures). Not every attack in the world has to draw upon a power source in order to function. I'm pretty sure this has been stated in at least one book. Off the top of my head I want to say Martial Power 2 stated that guards, even epic ones, are not accessing the martial power source when they skewer you with a spear.
And the alternative(at least the one I was responding to) has more internal problems(at least that I can see) than what I posted.
Whilst I disagree with AH_Stormbringer about the value of the elemental power source, I do agree that it's more likely that shadow will come out first as it already existed in 3.X as a distinct entity where elemental did not.
Oh I'm sure that Shadow will come out first, but there is a difference between being sure that something will happen and saying something is slated to happen.
Well, he is not saying that a Power Source being a source of power is complex. He is saying that Power Source X being inescapably conected to plane Y is complex.
They idea of one power source not effecting another ties into the theory of them being tied to specific planes. Why would "magic" from and made of the fey wild effect "magic" from and of the astral sea the same way as "magic" from and of the far realms. In the older edditions clerics, magic users, and druids were limited in what they could do because of how their magic worked. Third ed had detect magic, dispel magic, detect psionics and dispel psionics and the two were not compatible.
Of course if one did not insist on linking power sources to specific planes that would not come up.
At least I presume thats what the badger said.
....I'm pretty sure that I never directly linked the power sources to any planes in my posts in this thread(well maybe shadow extremely indirectly, but that is an exception because all Shadow classes apparently have a portion of the Shadowfell in thire soul.....so that link is definite and indisputable by default fluff). As memory serves, I in fact stated that Arcane energy permuated all of existence.
Even assuming for a moment that I did imply that power sources are directly tied to planes, the 4ed fluff has nothing that would imply that energy from one plane is unable to effect power from another. In fact it has quite the oppisite. In the dawn war the living embodiments of three planes were directly able to effect each other frequently killing each other.
You implied with your post that each power source is tied to a distinct type of supernatural energy, and I find this unnecessarily complex because there's no reason for this.
It's like saying that you can only run your toaster on solar-generated electricity, whereas your kettle works purely with nuclear power.
A better metaphor may be computer programs. Each has a different purpose, each is used in a different way, but they are all used on computers.
With shadow, for example, the shadowstuff infection may be the reason you have your powers but the power itself draws on the same energies as a Wizard's Fireball, a Cleric's Lance of Faith, or a Dragon's Breath.
Sea-Envy is half right.
You implied with your post that each power source is tied to a distinct type of supernatural energy, and I find this unnecessarily complex because there's no reason for this.
It's like saying that you can only run your toaster on solar-generated electricity, whereas your kettle works purely with nuclear power.
A better metaphor may be computer programs. Each has a different purpose, each is used in a different way, but they are all used on computers.
With shadow, for example, the shadowstuff infection may be the reason you have your powers but the power itself draws on the same energies as a Wizard's Fireball, a Cleric's Lance of Faith, or a Dragon's Breath.
Computer code might not be your best metaphor since not all code(in fact no code, although Java might be close) runs on all operating systems. Just ask people with Macs about how well their Character Builders run. If you want to make the argument that OS's are just computer code, then we can go a step deeper to the CPUs which use different ISAs. Running two processes that give identical results on two different machines require completely different binaries because accessing the resources for those computers are completely different, so ISA=power source, code=class, result=role.
And I suppose I could make some fancy arguments or something about the nature of power sources, but I just found my brain which was lying next to my PHB1 so I'll quote the PHB1 instead.
However...
When it comes to the Arcane source, the PHB clearly states:
Each class is the representative of a different tradition of arcane study
So I take comfort in the fact that I was half right. Yes, all arcane classes draw upon a mystical field of energy, but to do so they need knowledge.
No, they need to study, that doesn't require knowledge. They may gain knowledge but they don't require knowledge.
If you're studying, than you're gaining some sort of knowledge. It may not be something they could articulate (in the case of sorcerers, you can pretty much bet it isn't). But life experience, words of wisdom, etc. are all forms of knowledge - just lying outside of what falls under Intelligence.
When it comes to the Arcane source, the PHB clearly states:Each class is the representative of a different tradition of arcane study
So I take comfort in the fact that I was half right. Yes, all arcane classes draw upon a mystical field of energy, but to do so they need knowledge.
That would be right before it talks about monks harnessing the 'ki' power source, which uses their 'soul energy'. So, yeah...
And then PHB2 explicitly states that sorcerers don't gain their power through study at all, but through an "instinctive or inborn connection". They have power "in their blood", not merely the knowledge to access that power - the word "knowledge" is never (AFAICR) used in descriptions of how sorcerers use magic.
In other words, they have innate knowledge of how to craft spells.
Arcane Power supports this interpretation with the phrasing in chaper 2's introduction and the story excerpt "Duel Arcane" on page 36, on which the character describes how a power "stole into his mind" on his thirteenth birthday.
The phrase given in the phb 2 is they harness the magic in thier blood. Whilst this could refer to arcane power (which according to the phb 1 is everywhere so is by it's very nature in everyone's blood anyway), it can also refer to a natural affinity or understanding of arcane magic.
In other words, they have innate knowledge of how to craft spells.
Arcane Power supports this interpretation with the phrasing in chaper 2's introduction and the story excerpt "Duel Arcane" on page 36, on which the character describes how a power "stole into his mind" on his thirteenth birthday.
So basically, arcane is like the other power sources, because they all work on a knowledge of how something is done.... but with arcane power instead of say... any other power source, ever.
The phrase given in the phb 2 is they harness the magic in thier blood. Whilst this could refer to arcane power (which according to the phb 1 is everywhere so is by it's very nature in everyone's blood anyway), it can also refer to a natural affinity or understanding of arcane magic.
In other words, they have innate knowledge of how to craft spells.
Arcane Power supports this interpretation with the phrasing in chaper 2's introduction and the story excerpt "Duel Arcane" on page 36, on which the character describes how a power "stole into his mind" on his thirteenth birthday.
So basically, arcane is like the other power sources, because they all work on a knowledge of how something is done.... but with arcane power instead of say... any other power source, ever.
I wouldn't say so. Barring the runepriest, divine classes work by calling on a deity to do stuff for you. Admittedly, the warlock is potentially pretty much the same, but with a patron. Depends on whether you're actively calling in favors from a patron or using spells the patron taught you. Or maybe they're basic spells you know that the patron enhances and makes more potent than your novice's mastery of magic.
But, as others have asked, how does that make the arcane power source different from all the others? Every character 'knows' how to access his power source. How is the sorcerer's instinctual knowledge of how to cast spells any different from the barbarian's instinctual knowledge of how to call upon the power of the primal spirits to let him fight better?
The difference is the source of the power, not the means of accessing it. Arcane power is like the pre-modern concept of the Aether, an invisible medium that permeates all of reality and mediates all interactions. Primal power is essentially animism.
The barbarian has absolutely no idea how his actual powers work. The spirits do it for him.
Likewise with divine. A cleric may target a Lance of Faith at an enemy but actually forming magical energy into said Lance is beyond him.
As an aside, I'll have a visitor for the next week or so so replies will be even more sporadic
It's the difference between being able to draw upon magics to create a bolt of lightning with a specific set of characteristics and being able to say "Pikachu I Choose You".
The barbarian has absolutely no idea how his actual powers work. The spirits do it for him.
Likewise with divine. A cleric may target a Lance of Faith at an enemy but actually forming magical energy into said Lance is beyond him.
Care to cite a source which states that barbarians are incapable of understanding how the spirits do what they do? And if a cleric isn't the one forming the magical energy into a lance who is? It isn't the cleric's god by default fluff because the rules do not penalize the cleric for not following his god nor for pissing off every single cosmic power in existence.
It's the difference between being able to draw upon magics to create a bolt of lightning with a specific set of characteristics and being able to say "Pikachu I Choose You".
The barbarian has absolutely no idea how his actual powers work. The spirits do it for him.
Likewise with divine. A cleric may target a Lance of Faith at an enemy but actually forming magical energy into said Lance is beyond him.
As an aside, I'll have a visitor for the next week or so so replies will be even more sporadic
A Cleric might prey for a Firestorm, but an Avenger or Paladin clearly directs their divine power with their powers. The power source may be what lends weight to their actions but you don't pray to teleport and attack someone or pull someone someone adjacent to you, etc.
Druids, Shamans and Wardens obviously exert specific control over the primal powers, or at least direct them.
Your arguement largely dies completely when we get to psionics and shadow.
Also, you can be completely wrong, all the Divine classes are clearly instructed how to use their powers, they all have some kind of inaugeration in their class's method of power attainment.
I'm also pretty sure a Barbarian has some idea of what he's doing, because otherwise he might Channel the Rage of the Angry Beaver rather than the Macetail Behemoth.
The barbarian has absolutely no idea how his actual powers work.
"I don't care why it works. I just know it does." (Arcane Wellspring sorcerer PP, PHB2 page 148)
You're basically arguing that the arcane power source is related to 'knowledge', then trying to equate that to 'understanding' (because all power sources are equally associated with 'knowledge' in the loosest sense, but not all are associated with 'understanding'). But that equation obviously fails when it comes to sorcerers.
The only way to get 'knowledge' or 'understanding' to fit as a uniting theme of all arcane classes, including the sorcerer, is to define those terms so loosely that they fit equally well with all the other power sources too.
Anyway, I still don't really understand why you're so opposed to the idea that different power sources are simply different sources of power (or energy). I don't see defining power sources by "how they're accessed" as a better or more elegant system in any way.
That barbarians and clerics don't necessarily understand how thier powers work is a natural extension of thier fluff: Their powers are granted by an external force. If I was a god and wanted to grant my cleric an ability then there's no reason not to give it to him completely, so that all he has to do is aim and fire. You don't need to understand enginering and chemistry to fire a gun, and you fire a gun even if the person who gave it to you doesn't want you too.
Psionic powers are innate. I don't need to know about muscles or martial arts to punch someone in the face or lift up a book.
Shadow powers (from what we've seen so far) are similar to psionics. A vampire doesn't need to know anything in order to drink blood or turn into mist, and the assasin's powers come from the same place as the vampires.
Martial is a wierd, but Iirc Martial Power 2 says that it's all about attitude.
I say knowedge is arcane's theme because every single arcane power feels artificial. Whether it's the Warlocks "summon coffin" or the sorcerer's "create giant black snake made out of fire", they all feel like they have been designed by a thinking entity. As there's no specific entity associated with arcane, the powers have to have been created by the end users. Therefore they have to know the rules of the power source.
The sorcerer is exactly the reason why I say knowledge instead of understanding. It's the difference between a mathematician and an idiot savant. They know how to form magical energy into a specific form without understanding why it forms itself that way. It's why the sorcerer's powers are the most "natural" arcane powers.
For the other sources knowledge simply isn't as central to the concept. A paladin can swing a blade without being martial for the same reason.
Simply saying the sources differ because of where the power comes from doesn't make sense because it doesn't say anything about the classes. A wizard will "feel" arcane regardless of where the fluff says he draws his power from, whether it's the aether, the gods or from a big pool of lemon custard.
A deity can't take a gun away from a Cleric, deities don't even give guns to clerics, Churches do.
You don't learn to punch people with psionic power just by punching people and hoping psionic power will be there. You train and hone the skills required to use the power source.
I'm pretty sure if an Invoke wants to invoke the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom, they have to know about the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom.
When you consider that a Wizard can shape a Bigby's Crushing FIst into a Mandy's Crushing ****s, the idea falls apart. They may know how to throw out a Force Orb, but that doesn't mean they're doing anything more sophistocated than using Spiting Cobra Stance.
Defender (maybe striker): Sha'ir, a falchion-wielding elementalist with a jin companion. The jin will be the mechanism through which the sha'ir marks his enemies (or does bonus damage to his enemies). Several types of jin companions will be available to choose from, based upon either the elements or a type of damage, and throw in demonic ones for the darker side of the elemental chaos. Key ability Cha.
Leader: Shugenja. Different elements will have different leader-type functions. Water powers will heal, earth powers boost defenses, air powers boost movement, fire powers boost attacks and daamage. If other element types are represented, they'll fit those in somehow. Key Ability Wis or Int.
Striker: Wu Jen. I'm not sure how they'd work out, but I can't help but picture some kind of thematic hybrid between the wizard and sorceror. There's a 3rd party publisher class, a striker called the Elementalist, that includes elemental specialization, and has different methods for dealing the striker bonus damage depending on which element is chosen. Key ability Con or Cha.
Controller: Alchemist, though this won't be the name. This class will have a transmutation theme, altering the terrain, and himself (giving him a secondary role of defender) and will also lob all those alchemical creations at foes. Key ability Con or Dex.
My guesses:
Defender (maybe striker): Sha'ir...
Leader: Shugenja...
Striker: Wu Jen...
So, they got rid of the key power source becuase it was just "East Asia" power, but they'll have no problem making Elemental the "Near and East Asia" power source?
Well, okay, change the names to something stupid, in the vein of battlemind, or incredibly simple and verb-based, like fighter or seeker.
They got rid of the Ki power source because it "proved untenable." That didn't mean they wouldn't go with a near-East and Eastern flavor at some point. It meant that they didn't know at the time how to reconcile ki and psionic. Actually, they bit off more than they could chew right from the start with all these different power sources. I knew that reading the blurb in PHB 1.
The assassin and monk both have Eastern flavor. The seeker seems to have some Eastern inspiration in it as well. There are elements of other classes that have a decidedly more Eastern bent. Tempest fighter and whirling barbarian come to mind. I'm sure that anyone could find more if they looked.
If it's about a naming convention, they've already done worse. If it's about the presence of overtly Eastern elements, there's no argument; they're already there. It's just a matter of how much.
And let's forget about the deva, changeling, and githzerai, Eastern-inspired races. Dragonborn society has Eastern influences as well. Shifters draw on Native American myth for inspiration.
That real-world influence permeates D&D in inescapable. Soon, WotC will run out of ideas, so they'll go Eastern eventually.
Live
Again
But most of the classes you've mentioned (and a whole load you've strangely skipped) involve some kind of training or learning in their background
Yes, but the only non-arcane classes where that's granted any sort of importance to the class's funtion is the runepriest, a class that's a hop and a skip from being arcane anyway.
A deity can't take a gun away from a Cleric, deities don't even give guns to clerics, Churches do.
Sometimes. And even then the point remains valid.
You don't learn to punch people with psionic power just by punching people and hoping psionic power will be there. You train and hone the skills required to use the power source.
I think you misunderstood what i meant here. Psionic power is innate. You're born with it, in the same way someone is born with arms. Knowledge of how it works is not a prerequisite for using it effectively.
I'm pretty sure if an Invoke wants to invoke the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom, they have to know about the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom.
Yes, the invoker knows how to activate the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom. And that's it. He can turn it on.
Assuming, of course, his diety deigned to implant him with the Sevenfold Invocation of Doom ability.
When you consider that a Wizard can shape a Bigby's Crushing FIst into a Mandy's Crushing ****s, the idea falls apart.
Err, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A wizard can mess around with his spells, but if the invoker from earlier wants to make a Fourfold Doom invocation he is, as a default, boned.
There seems to be a lot of opposition to the "Knowledge is Arcane's Theme" theory.
Does "Arcane is the Power Source where Knowledge is the only requirement" seem more likely?
Sha'ir, a falchion-wielding elementalist...
That's oddly specific. Are you thinking of a particular character?
those same influences you spoke of were used in druidic mythology and several others.
Truth.
Err, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A wizard can mess around with his spells, but if the invoker from earlier wants to make a Fourfold Doom invocation he is, as a default, boned.
Cite?
There seems to be a lot of opposition to the "Knowledge is Arcane's Theme" theory.
Does "Arcane is the Power Source where Knowledge is the only requirement" seem more likely?
No because Arcane energy is also a requirement. Just like how the primal requires knowledge of how to channel spirits and access to the spirits themselves. Just like how the divine power source requires knowledge of how to use the powers and actual access to divine energy. Etc etc.
Just a quick tidbit. Have the PHB:Tiefling Book, and in multiple places it references elemental magic. Specificly it has sentences where it mentions both Arcane magic and Elemental magic seperately, clearly indicating they are not the same thing. Would look like the elemental power source is still on track.
I'm glad to hear it.
Err, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A wizard can mess around with his spells, but if the invoker from earlier wants to make a Fourfold Doom invocation he is, as a default, boned.
Cite?
Logic. The only available source for a wizard to gain his spells is either to work them out himself or be given them by another wizard. Invokers are usually granted thier prayers directly by a diety, and therefor has no influence on what the prayer does. See the gun metaphor.
There seems to be a lot of opposition to the "Knowledge is Arcane's Theme" theory.
Does "Arcane is the Power Source where Knowledge is the only requirement" seem more likely?
No because Arcane energy is also a requirement. Just like how the primal requires knowledge of how to channel spirits and access to the spirits themselves. Just like how the divine power source requires knowledge of how to use the powers and actual access to divine energy. Etc etc.
Except that it isn't a requirement, it's a consequence. You don't need to have access to the divine power source to become an invoker, you get it because you're an invoker.
Logic. The only available source for a wizard to gain his spells is either to work them out himself or be given them by another wizard. Invokers are usually granted thier prayers directly by a diety, and therefor has no influence on what the prayer does. See the gun metaphor.
Except that an invoker doesn't have theor powers handed to them by their god. They use the words of creation used by the gods themselves in forging the world(source Divine Power). If an invoker wants to make a Fourfold Doom invokation all he has to do is find the right string of sentence for those words to create the effect, just as a wizard has to come up with the arcane formula that would create a Mandy's Crushing ****s spell.
Except that it isn't a requirement, it's a consequence. You don't need to have access to the divine power source to become an invoker, you get it because you're an invoker.
.....So you are saying that an invoker only requires knowledge of how to channel the divine power source then? Because that is fine with me.
Except that an invoker doesn't have theor powers handed to them by their god. They use the words of creation used by the gods themselves in forging the world(source Divine Power). If an invoker wants to make a Fourfold Doom invokation all he has to do is find the right string of sentence for those words to create the effect, just as a wizard has to come up with the arcane formula that would create a Mandy's Crushing ****s spell.
I was under the impression that each invoker prayer was essentially a distinct word. You can mess around with the word "Five" all you want, you'll never find the word "Four".
.....So you are saying that an invoker only requires knowledge of how to channel the divine power source then? Because that is fine with me.
Almost. I'm saying that any divine class only really requires is contact with a diety or thier works. Knowledge may be useful, may even be essential to some classes, but without that deific spark then all the knowledge in the world won't do jack.
It's a small distinction, but I feel it's important.
Every power source other than arcane has some sort of thematic requirement for someone to join the class, whether the inborn power of psionics, martial badassedness or shadow infection. Arcane simply doesn't seem to have any, other than Knowledge.
I was under the impression that each invoker prayer was essentially a distinct word. You can mess around with the word "Five" all you want, you'll never find the word "Four".
Sidebar on page 64 of Divine Power would indicate otherwise.
Almost. I'm saying that any divine class only really requires is contact with a diety or thier works. Knowledge may be useful, may even be essential to some classes, but without that deific spark then all the knowledge in the world won't do jack.
It's a small distinction, but I feel it's important.
And without any arcane energy, aka the energy that fuels arcane powers, the wizard's knowledge also does diddly squat.
Every power source other than arcane has some sort of thematic requirement for someone to join the class, whether the inborn power of psionics, martial badassedness or shadow infection. Arcane simply doesn't seem to have any, other than Knowledge.
That's because arcane is the dumping ground for every class which doesn't fit well within the boundaries of the other power sources and because arcane energy is so poorly defined.
I think you misunderstood what i meant here. Psionic power is innate. You're born with it, in the same way someone is born with arms. Knowledge of how it works is not a prerequisite for using it effectively.
Psionics may be an innate gift that people can tap into, but they still have to learn how to tap into that power. Everyone can theoretically tap into arcane power or whatever, the only knowledge that's required is how to do so. Arcane is do different to many other power sources.
Err, this is exactly what I'm talking about. A wizard can mess around with his spells, but if the invoker from earlier wants to make a Fourfold Doom invocation he is, as a default, boned.
And now we get back to why you're wrong, completely wrong.
There is no spell Force Orb, someone figures out how to make the effect by themself, you don't pick up a scroll that tells you how to cast a Force Orb, you learn how to cast a spell that acts attacks with force power then explodes, how that happens is entirely down to the Wizard and his own research or use of the power source.
Same with any class.
If an Invoker wants to make a Five fold invocation of doom or a Five Fold Invocation of Mary's Bloomers, or invoke Force Orb, he can. If a Psion wants to project squirells that nibble on people, he can.
I was under the impression that each invoker prayer was essentially a distinct word. You can mess around with the word "Five" all you want, you'll never find the word "Four".
Sidebar on page 64 of Divine Power would indicate otherwise.
Ahh. Then I conceed the point.
Almost. I'm saying that any divine class only really requires is contact with a diety or thier works. Knowledge may be useful, may even be essential to some classes, but without that deific spark then all the knowledge in the world won't do jack.
It's a small distinction, but I feel it's important.
And without any arcane energy, aka the energy that fuels arcane powers, the wizard's knowledge also does diddly squat.
Like I said with the Invoker, access to X energy is a consequence of becoming a member of X class, not a requirement, with the notable exception of Psionics.
That's because arcane is the dumping ground for every class which doesn't fit well within the boundaries of the other power sources and because arcane energy is so poorly defined.
Arcane energy's lack of definition is only a problem if you try to use it define the source, the same as anytime you try to define something by the type of batterys it uses.
It's all very nice saying arcane is nothing but a concept dumping ground but it doesn't account for the themes that run through the classes.
Psionics may be an innate gift that people can tap into, but they still have to learn how to tap into that power. Everyone can theoretically tap into arcane power or whatever, the only knowledge that's required is how to do so.
The difference is that with psionics you're developing an ability you already have, like learning to walk when you have legs, whereas with arcane you're learning an entirely new ability, like learning to speak a specific language.
There is no spell Force Orb, someone figures out how to make the effect by themself, you don't pick up a scroll that tells you how to cast a Force Orb, you learn how to cast a spell that acts attacks with force power then explodes, how that happens is entirely down to the Wizard and his own research or use of the power source.
Agreed.
Same with any class.
Here we differ.
To be clear, I'm not saying the ability to modify your powers is arcane's thing any more, but there are plenty of classes that simply don't have any significant control over thier powers to make this statement true. The barbarian is probably the most obvious example as he isn't actually directly using his powers, the spirit that rides him is. If he wants to use Rage of the Effervescent Mongoose there has to be an effervescent mongoose spirit, and it's up to said spirit what the rage actually does, not the barbarian. Likewise with any character that gets specific powers from a third party, either through direct intervention or via ritual.
Imagine a guy firing a bolt of lightning on fire.
Another nice thing would be an Intelligence based melee striker. One that punches people. And then they're struck by a lightning on fire.
Almost. I'm saying that any divine class only really requires is contact with a diety or thier works. Knowledge may be useful, may even be essential to some classes, but without that deific spark then all the knowledge in the world won't do jack.
It's a small distinction, but I feel it's important.
And without any arcane energy, aka the energy that fuels arcane powers, the wizard's knowledge also does diddly squat.
Like I said with the Invoker, access to X energy is a consequence of becoming a member of X class, not a requirement, with the notable exception of Psionics.
.....But you just stated above that "any divine class only really requires is contact with a deity or their works." That pretty much is access to divine energy, so how is there a distinction between the divine classes requiring access to divine power and arcane classes requiring access to arcane energy? I really don't get what you are even trying to argue with this point anymore.
Like
Hit: 3D6 + CPN Fire damage and the target takes 10 ongoing Cold damage (save ends).
Heck ,throw in
Aftereffect: The target takes 5 ongoing acid damage (save ends).
"WHY WON'T IT STOP BURNING! AAAARG!"
XD
I think elemental powers should work by transmuting the target. So, rather than flinging a bolt of lightning at the enemy to injure him, you turn his body into lighting, damaging him and his nearby allies. Instead of dropping a fireball on the enemy to set him on fire, you turn his blood into boiling lava which then bursts forth and incinerates his friends too. Instead of turning your own skin into iron or stone or bark to make yourself hardier, you turn your foe's weapon into water or his armour into glass. Instead of creating a patch of icy ground to freeze your enemy in place, you turn his legs to stone to stop him moving. And so on.
.....But you just stated above that "any divine class only really requires is contact with a deity or their works." That pretty much is access to divine energy, so how is there a distinction between the divine classes requiring access to divine power and arcane classes requiring access to arcane energy? I really don't get what you are even trying to argue with this point anymore.