www.amazon.com/Elemental-Heros-Handbook-...
Let the insane speculating begin!
For example, we might bet a Binder build that binds demons to it's service (Demon Pact). Or a Djinn/Efreeti Pact, for that matter.
Then I'd probably see Some sort of primal elementalist, such as we saw with the Elemental Priest and the Animist Shaman in Dark Sun, which really blurred the line between the two power sources.
An Essentials+ Sorcerer might be in the works as well.
We might get a single new pure Elemental class, but I don't know what that would be.
Years ago, I was one of those who argued that Elemental wouldn't be axed, because even though I couldn't think of a pure Elemental Class, WotC is creative. Now, I'm more likely to think it'll be an add-on power source like Shadow.
I can only imagine this book will be horrible.
If it anything like heros of shadow then it will most likely be a hugh let down
If it will be like Heroes of Shadow, I will be a happy customer.
I hope not.
I hope it would be closer to PHB 2 or 3. I hope its just a working title for PHB 4
If it will be like Heroes of Shadow, I will be a happy customer.
I hope not. They pretty much failed on that book from a mechanics perspective. Everything in it is well below the bar in terms of expected power, except maybe the Vryloka and Blackguard. If it has good flavor and mechanics to match, I'll be happy. I'd be happy with that in anything at this point.
If it will be like Heroes of Shadow, I will be a happy customer.
Oh for the love of everything holy can we set the bar any lower?
Now you're just asking for them to nerf the bar. :P
Elemental Hero's Handbook, coming Feb. 21, 2012:
www.amazon.com/Elemental-Heros-Handbook-...
Let the insane speculating begin!
An impeccable inside source just informed me that this book is being co-written by none other than the "go to" team of elemental source hero writing.
That's right folks, none other than
Scott Baio and Mason Reese.
All those deviled ham easter eggs littering the PHB3 and MM3 finally make sense.
It's the end of D&D!
Oh, noes! They are making a product that the customers asked for!
It's the end of D&D!
Awesome!!!
If it will be like Heroes of Shadow, I will be a happy customer.
Oh for the love of everything holy can we set the bar any lower?
Now you're just asking for them to nerf the bar. :P
"Nerfing the bar" is my new favorite forums term... well done good sir!
I expect more out of the WOTCs than Heroes of Shadow... I am also expecting to be disapointed by them again so no big deal there...
A "guidebook" sounds like it gives you options for playing characters themed around the elements. If you want a pyromancer, it'll show you all your options for that through all the classes and give you new options as well. That'd be my guess at this point.
So it will be about stuff using the actual Elemental keyword, like HoS was about stuff using the Shadow keyword.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
Either way, I am looking forward to this so I can do an Avatar: the Last Airbender themed campaign.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
I'm thinking of Al-Qadim. Mmmmm, want have...
I am betting we will get more domains like the Earth Domain for the cleric here. Could be a possible place for things like an elemental Druid and stuff like an Electromancer and Cryomancer for the Wizard. I kinda hope we will see a sorcerer build or subclass here.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
Either way, I am looking forward to this so I can do an Avatar: the Last Airbender themed campaign.
Earth Domain is already out in Dragon.
I am betting we will get more domains like the Earth Domain for the cleric here. Could be a possible place for things like an elemental Druid and stuff like an Electromancer and Cryomancer for the Wizard. I kinda hope we will see a sorcerer build or subclass here.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
Either way, I am looking forward to this so I can do an Avatar: the Last Airbender themed campaign.
Earth Domain is already out in Dragon.
I meant like as in "similar to" not like as in "such as". This would be a good place for things like the Air Domain, Fire Domain, etc.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
I'm thinking of Al-Qadim. Mmmmm, want have...
God I hope this isn't a return of the utterly moronic idea of supporting only Forgotten Realms.
what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting?
Greyhawk, the originator of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
If it will be like Heroes of Shadow, I will be a happy customer.
ditto
as in Ill believe it when I see it.
its still half a year awway and thats just long enough to be canned
While better than essentials itself, I will say HoS is the first class/power book I have used 0% of. I dont even bother saving characters i toy around with in it. I made my own blackguard class because I just don't like the jive of WoTC's.
While it's very likely that they're doing the mixed power source thing again, I feel that there is a very large amount of room for Pure Elemental Classes.
No, it's going to be about the Elemental power source, which is not a new source. It was one of the originally mentioned sources, and we already have mixed Elemental/Primal source stuff.
So it will be about stuff using the actual Elemental keyword, like HoS was about stuff using the Shadow keyword.
What?! No way, CelticMutt. Back when they nixed the ki power source they discussed power source ideas that were thought up in the early stages but then became not as necessary/compelling/etc. IIRC, Elemental was one of these.
Not that I think an Elemental power source, as discussed and speculated on hereabouts, couldn't be cool or distinct at all. I just don't see reason to be so certain it's on the way. ...Unless of course you are just personally excited about the idea and are simply speaking boldly to inspire conviction and gusto...In which case, more power to you.
Considering how far away the release is, the book was most likely started relatively recently, which means there's a strong chance that they'll be able to take the significantly large negative response to HoS into account. The FEYWILD book, which was produced much more recently, I am certainly worried about, but I'm not about to get worried about a book that could well still be in the planning stages.
While it's very likely that they're doing the mixed power source thing again, I feel that there is a very large amount of room for Pure Elemental Classes.
Nice write-up, btw.
No, it's going to be about the Elemental power source, which is not a new source. It was one of the originally mentioned sources, and we already have mixed Elemental/Primal source stuff.
So it will be about stuff using the actual Elemental keyword, like HoS was about stuff using the Shadow keyword.
What?! No way, CelticMutt. Back when they nixed the ki power source they discussed power source ideas that were thought up in the early stages but then became not as necessary/compelling/etc. IIRC, Elemental was one of these.
Actually, CelticMutt is correct. There was a Dragon article on Druids that mixed elemental magic into their primal magic. The powers use the Elemental keyword. The Elemental Power Source is not new, nor was it axed like Ki. It's just that a lot of people THOUGHT it would be axed because they couldn't think up viable classes. But given how Shadow Magic is mostly an additive power source (which is ironic, because shadows are the absence of light, not a physical addition), Elemental Magic can work quite similarly and still remain viable.
...and has the bonus advantage that there aren't many preformed opinions about it beyond the "a wizard could do that" thing which covers every non-martial action in the game.
This just tells me that it is not only not needed, Mearls and co; will only frack it up worse.
1) Nothing beyond Fighter Rogue Cleric Wizard has ever been needed.
2) Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see.
--
SirOmega: Click the link in my sig if you want some ideas on what Elemental can bring to the table.
Initial Amazon titles are often placeholders. Take this with a grain of salt.
Thats an interesting comment. I (and many others) regard Amazon as a much better source of whats really coming out then this site, the recent cancellations were listed on Amazon first, the shift of HOS to April was on Amazon first, the Martial Handbook move as well. Do you have an actual example where Amazon listed a product "as a placeholder" that didnt eventually get listed on the Wizards site as a real product.
I think the biggest reason I'm not behind this book is that I don't really understand the difference between Elemental and Primal. Maybe I've been in Athas too long but the elemental spirits seems squarely in the Shaman/Warden's department. And also Sorcerer/Wizard.
They drew a line between the two in the PH. Primal deals with primal spirits of the Natural world. While the natural world is made up of elements, they are elements cohering within a natural order. The Elemental source will presumably tap the Elemental Chaos, in which the power of the elements is unconstrained by any order or reason. Presumably, it might also call upon demonic powers of the Abyss, also within the Elemental Chaos. Perhaps Elementalists will even in some sense tap the power of the Primordials in some way analogous to how Divine classes deal with the Gods?
But I'm not going to be foolish enough to get myself interested and then be brutally disappointed at how poorly thought out the mechanics are again (like HoS).
I can only imagine this book will be horrible.
Luke: I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.
With the unanimously bad reaction to HoS, I believe WotC will have learned and this book provides us with new AEDU elemental classes for various roles.
Unanimously?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Heroes of Shadow is a decent book, one I have seen people state their enjoyment of (much less online than offline).
I also enjoy it, and hope to see an Elemental Power book following the same style of offerings... though a few more magic items with related flavor would be appreciated.
In related news: This forum's collective opinion still continues not to match either my own gaming group or our FLGS groups opinions... and will never stop assuming that trends found in the forum translate to trends found in all the other gamers out there that never visit the forum.
With the unanimously bad reaction to HoS, I believe WotC will have learned and this book provides us with new AEDU elemental classes for various roles.
Unanimously?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Heroes of Shadow is a decent book, one I have seen people state their enjoyment of (much less online than offline).
I also enjoy it, and hope to see an Elemental Power book following the same style of offerings... though a few more magic items with related flavor would be appreciated.
In related news: This forum's collective opinion still continues not to match either my own gaming group or our FLGS groups opinions... and will never stop assuming that trends found in the forum translate to trends found in all the other gamers out there that never visit the forum.
Lets hope not. I wanted the Shadow power source to be cool and unique, or at least how it was in the "tome of magic" late 3.5 book. Insead the shadow power source we get a lazy way of fixing the straight jacket alignment of the paladin, a poorly designed class just to add a little gothic horror to the players (by the way it would have been far better if it had been done as Dark son character theme), and even more add on to the warlock the most supported class to date. And lets not forget when they talked about how other races viewed the shadow power they only talked about the Races in HoFL, and not the in the PH1.
I fear that the people at D&D are just going back the idea that they should only support the materal that were in the first book. A step in the wrong direction if you ask me
Luke: I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you fail.
Wow it only took 3 days to come up with this snappy comeback? Color me impressed.
Well, I do have my moments.
Usually it would have taken me a week.
edit: Ooh. Ooh. And:
Doc: Marty, you're not thinking 4th dimensionally. When you accelerate at that screen going 88 mph you'll be back in 1885 and those indians won't even be there.
Marty: Riiiiight...
Wow. So much speculation on so little info, and looks like many people have the review already written. Crazy.
HoS had the dubious honor of being the first book of a new line - this leads most to assume that all other books of its sort that follow it will resemble it, especially since WotC has fairly long lead times on their products. There is also, of course, the standard D&D Paranoia.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
*clap clap* love it.
HoS is a good book, i just dont understand the hate, i am very happy that they did not make shadow has its own classes. to me Shadow and Elemental Power Source should be addons to all other power sources and not be on their own
Hate is irrational.
Take certain people who can't imagine a book being good.
Same thing was said with teh Buffy TV show, since the movie was soooooooooo bad (and I love the movie).
People, on occasion, are "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."
As well, "as [a man] that approve a private opinion call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion."
So if HoS is an "opinion" of what 4e should be (and it is WotC's opinion) those that dislike it call it "heresy" (or an abomination, or crap, or putrid filth that slimed it's way from a post Heinsoo era) and feel compelled to make that point at every opportunity.
HoS is a good book, i just dont understand the hate, i am very happy that they did not make shadow has its own classes. to me Shadow and Elemental Power Source should be addons to all other power sources and not be on their own
I don't hate on things which are essentially toys. However, I have a significant disagreement with the writers of the HoS as to what constitutes valuable material and good game mechanics, so I have no use for the book. I also disagree with you entirely on what the Shadow and Elemental sources should be, and so any books that agree with you on that are very unlikely to draw my dollar. I still won't hate them, but I will be sad that the game is stuck with what I feel is an inferior design choice.
HoS is a good book, i just dont understand the hate, i am very happy that they did not make shadow has its own classes. to me Shadow and Elemental Power Source should be addons to all other power sources and not be on their own
While I don't mind the "Shadow's influence on other classes" tone that Heroes of Shadow gave us, there is still plenty of room for classes that are predominantly Shadow, just as there was room for classes that were predominantly Primal and Psionic. The same goes for Elemental. Lots of great ideas have been posted on these boards, plenty enough to fill two books or more, or fully fleshed out Shadow and Elemental classes.
The two styles of design are not mutually exclusive.
Mechanically the book seemed kind of poorly done.
The Necro and Nethermancer have some nice powers here and there, but while i like them thematicly, I don't like them mechanicly. While light manipulation is "cool" mechanicly its just annoying.
I really, really wanted to like the binder. But in the end its just a warlock without the curse and choices, and waaay too many slow/immobilize powers. It also sadly doesn't get a stun ever. I wouldn't be surprised if a Seeker could out-control it. The Nethermancer should have been axed and its powers forming the basis of this class.
Some of the new cleric powers make me wonder why 'templar' got nerfed.
The gloompact hexblade is just another sad-striker.
The blackguard's ok, but I'm having more fun with mine. Using a clone of Arthas for a picture didn't help much either.
The vampire isn't really my thing, so I'm not going to attack it too critically. I hear its a weak striker, but I have a friend who claims its quite potent. Then again, we use higher point buy, so 2ndary mod to damage is very potent.
HoS is a good book, i just dont understand the hate, i am very happy that they did not make shadow has its own classes. to me Shadow and Elemental Power Source should be addons to all other power sources and not be on their own
While I don't mind the "Shadow's influence on other classes" tone that Heroes of Shadow gave us, there is still plenty of room for classes that are predominantly Shadow, just as there was room for classes that were predominantly Primal and Psionic. The same goes for Elemental. Lots of great ideas have been posted on these boards, plenty enough to fill two books or more, or fully fleshed out Shadow and Elemental classes.
The two styles of design are not mutually exclusive.
I think there should never be a shadow only class...if i had it my way, i would get rid of the assassin from both books and just make it rogue...i would get rid of vampire or make 4 different type of vampires that were like Shadow and something else. imo shadow and elemental should be addons only...nothing more nothing less
I think there should never be a shadow only class...if i had it my way, i would get rid of the assassin from both books and just make it rogue...i would get rid of vampire or make 4 different type of vampires that were like Shadow and something else. imo shadow and elemental should be addons only...nothing more nothing less
If it was built as a normal source you could have restricted characters to only hybrids and multiclassing and you would have your shadow or element are nought be a taint... but for those who want a pure source welll it really doesnt feel like they are getting it = at least that is what I am hearing - I like to shoot for empathy
Sales can be tracked you just have to get the right quartiles reports which are at least some of which are public.
"Some" just makes it a large-scale anecdote.
Anyone think this book might feature support for the swordmage? I could see a couple possible additions.
Possible. But I dunno. More likely not, since the swordmage doesn't have an e-redux. That's a hurdle.
If you want there to be one send a paper letter to teh WotC office Attn: Rich Baker and make a simple and short request for the swordmage to be in there.
Worth a shot. Most it'll cost you is 15 minutes and 44 cents.
I wonder what this means for the 2012 campaign setting. Psionics was a dead ringer for Dark Sun, Shadow was supposed to come out with Ravenloft, what is the most elemental-focused campaign setting? Maybe we will get an Oriental Adventures campaign setting.
I'm thinking of Al-Qadim. Mmmmm, want have...
They Mention Al-Qadim in the last pod cast and I heard a tell that Al-Qadim will not be in forgotten realms but instead be on it's twin world. that could open up some possibilities.
I still haven't listened to the podcast yet...arghh. Al-Qadim on Abeir could be pretty awesome though.I checked out the link again. Elemental Heroes is currently listed for Feb 2012! That's another long wait.
I am going to have to disagree strongly to this. Shadow and Elemental have the potential to create some of the most interesting classes for the edition if they are handled properly. By turning them into supplemental power sources, their potential is completely squandered as they are turned into after thoughts for the class rather than being allowed to develop into their own unique concepts.
ok i maybe should say they should have their own subclasses to all the classes we have now....not their own classes which they have to make up new powers that do not help any of the classes we have now
Making shadow and elemental classes into subclasses is exactly how you mishandle them and waste their overwhelming potential by diluting it with the fluff of the base class preventing them from creating an identify for themselves.
I am going to have to disagree strongly to this. Shadow and Elemental have the potential to create some of the most interesting classes for the edition if they are handled properly. By turning them into supplemental power sources, their potential is completely squandered as they are turned into after thoughts for the class rather than being allowed to develop into their own unique concepts.
ok i maybe should say they should have their own subclasses to all the classes we have now....not their own classes which they have to make up new powers that do not help any of the classes we have now
Making shadow and elemental classes into subclasses is exactly how you mishandle them and waste their overwhelming potential by diluting it with the fluff of the base class preventing them from creating an identify for themselves.
but shadow and elemental do have a great identify for themselves. its just that they should not have classes for their selves. subclasses is the best way to go....make me a shadow fighter. then maybe my fighter can take some of the new shadow fighter's power by just trading in a power or feat. i dont care how, as long as there is some way to get it without mult-classing or hybrid. because i just want to play a fighter....not a fighter and whatever.
but shadow and elemental do have a great identify for themselves. its just that they should not have classes for their selves.
By that reasoning no classes should have been made after PHB1. Sorry I like classes, not subclasses because subclasses have no ability to be customized. I don't want to play Mearls idea of a fighter, I'd rather play Heinsoo's.
PHB 1 - 3; options. 4.5 no options, but plenty of subclasses?
ok fine....make a shadow shaman subclass or shadow runepriest subclass...how hard is it to understand this? i said they should stop making new classes and just help the ones they have already...we got all the classes we need, we need to help all of them more
You don't listen do you? Subclasses are an effect of terrible design.
no they are not, it is a smart move imo
So you like playing a pre-built class? You like having your character living in a straight jacket? If this is the case it's no wonder you like the 4.5 designs. Bad design does not make for better gameplay. I don't care who tells you otherwise.
yea somethings are going to be picked but they going to make where you can pick other things in place of those they give you....look at the spear fighter...but not all subclasses are going to be like the slayer or knight....they can make a subclass of shaman but have different class features but the powers can share powers with the other shaman class....not like how they have it where you just switch out one class feature with another one but all different class features but still called a shaman
Sure, there are always some random WotC apologists out there, but the overwhelming majority of these forums (and most importantly the CharOp forum) has judged HoS as a pretty complete failure.
I wasn't aware that the charop forum was the most important voice on what is good and bad in D&D. There are other aspects to D&D besides min-maxing, other ways of playing the game.
Charop should not have the final say in what is good or bad in D&D.
Char Op, as a whole, has a better handle on MECHANICS than most designers, and so they should be utilized as a resource as much as possible when designing new MECHANICS. The other aspects of D&D are another matter entirely, and nobody is suggesting that Char Op should be considered when working on anything non-mechanical.
Exactly. We spotted the Scout's Power Strike bug as soon as we saw the preview they released: why the hell didn't they? We loled at the vampire as soon as the book hit print, because the failure of the class was obvious to us: why wasn't it obvious to them? WotC staffers are paid, professional game designers. Why the heck do they keep leaving such obvious errors and oversights in the products they produce?
Remember when we'd get playtests of coming material? And when those playtests would actually effect the final product? Now WotC gives themselves literally one month to design, write, and test a new class before the book has to be finalized for the printers, no wonder we get this kind of drivel.
but shadow and elemental do have a great identify for themselves. its just that they should not have classes for their selves. subclasses is the best way to go....make me a shadow fighter. then maybe my fighter can take some of the new shadow fighter's power by just trading in a power or feat. i dont care how, as long as there is some way to get it without mult-classing or hybrid. because i just want to play a fighter....not a fighter and whatever.
Without classes the power sources have no identity. Shadow does not have an identity to itself after Heroes of Shadow. The Ossassin had an identity and pretty much included a blueprint to making some of the most awesomely fluffed classes ever. That blueprint was not followed and the power source lost its identity.
It is yet to be seen as to whether Elemental will have any kind of identity, but I don't have any kind of faith that it will.
but shadow and elemental do have a great identify for themselves. its just that they should not have classes for their selves. subclasses is the best way to go....make me a shadow fighter. then maybe my fighter can take some of the new shadow fighter's power by just trading in a power or feat. i dont care how, as long as there is some way to get it without mult-classing or hybrid. because i just want to play a fighter....not a fighter and whatever.
Without classes the power sources have no identity. Shadow does not have an identity to itself after Heroes of Shadow. The Ossassin had an identity and pretty much included a blueprint to making some of the most awesomely fluffed classes ever. That blueprint was not followed and the power source lost its identity.
It is yet to be seen as to whether Elemental will have any kind of identity, but I don't have any kind of faith that it will.
it does but it just added onto the other sources. i dont care for the oassassin or new one, both feel like they both should be sub class for rogue....
I think perhaps I'll start a short series of blog entries with an Encounters-style character sheet for hypothetical elemental classes - one for each role - just to throw some crunch into this conversation, even if it's essentially fictional. I have a few specific ideas in mind, but if anyone has any of their own, I'd love to hear them.
Well, my channeler isn't written as an elemental class, but it very well could be: it draws all its powers from the elemental chaos. I haven't written a paragon path for it yet, but other than that it's complete.
Right now I'm working on an elemental defender that uses a conjuration to extend its range, which I think will showcase a bit more of what makes elemental unique. Just wish I had an artist on hand to illustrate the concept - amazing how much a visual can help.
Edit: Got the crunch written up, so I'll spend tomorrow making it presentable. I dub thee Xaosmith.
We loled at the vampire as soon as the book hit print, because the failure of the class was obvious to us: why wasn't it obvious to them?
LOL is right, just not at the Vampire. It may be weaker than average, but a failure? Not even close. The only failures in the book are the Shade and Binder.
There's definately a lot of room for elemental sorceror-like classes, though their inclusion as arcane classes kind of takes the thunder out of the idea.
IMO, it's fairly hard to come up with a definition of an "elemental" character class that excludes the chaos sorcerer, just like there's no good reason the Shadow Pact warlock isn't a shadow class.
We loled at the vampire as soon as the book hit print, because the failure of the class was obvious to us: why wasn't it obvious to them?
LOL is right, just not at the Vampire. It may be weaker than average, but a failure?
We've had this discussion before, and I kind of thought you had conceeded this point. The vampire is, bar none, the weakest striker, weaker than other strikers cited as too weak to live. They don't adequately dabble in other roles like warlocks or sorcerers to compensate for the fact that their damage is worse than some defenders.
It's a failure by any definiton.
There's definately a lot of room for elemental sorceror-like classes, though their inclusion as arcane classes kind of takes the thunder out of the idea.
IMO, it's fairly hard to come up with a definition of an "elemental" character class that excludes the chaos sorcerer, just like there's no good reason the Shadow Pact warlock isn't a shadow class.
Eh. Have you read the blog essay in my sig? I'd argue that there's a more unique way to create a generic elementalist "caster" type than to simply flip arcane for elemental. There's nothing WRONG with an elemental chaos sorceror, but it would feel more arcane than something custom-built for the power source.
IMO, it's fairly hard to come up with a definition of an "elemental" character class that excludes the chaos sorcerer, just like there's no good reason the Shadow Pact warlock isn't a shadow class.
This is a problem with the arcane power source and not with shadow or elemental. However I can come up with an explanation fo why elemental classes are elemental and the chaos sorcerer is not. My basic thoughts for it back when I still had big hopes for the power source were something like:
Those who draw upon the elemental power source see structure when they gaze upon the elemental chaos. Structure more infinitly complex and beautiful than the gods or primal spirits could ever hope to create or even understand. In the the elemental chaos is a constant flow causing the world to constantly change. To be born is to die. To die is to decompose. To decompose is to birth life into the world. Some others claim to understand the elemental chaos, such as chaos sorcerers. However these short sighted people don't see the structure at all. They look at the small picture seeing the changes as small unrelated events, and try to recreate those, subverting the flow of the world in the process. You however don't try to stop the flow but rather aid it as you release the world back into its original state, if but only for a short time.
We loled at the vampire as soon as the book hit print, because the failure of the class was obvious to us: why wasn't it obvious to them?
LOL is right, just not at the Vampire. It may be weaker than average, but a failure?
We've had this discussion before, and I kind of thought you had conceeded this point. The vampire is, bar none, the weakest striker, weaker than other strikers cited as too weak to live.
Actually, I think the Vampire is less crap than the OAssassin. In saying this, I realize it's like implying a geriatric former heavyweight boxer could take a 5 year old in a fight and only barely win but he's not quite the bottom of the barrel. Close, but he doesn't quite win because the resilience is actually there and their damage is probably competitive with (or slightly better) than the OAssassin. At the same time the class is a boring railroad and falls well behind in damage after paragon (so it shares this problem with the OAssassin). But its problems are nothing that class support couldn't actually fix if Wizards decided to actually do so.
"Masters of fire and earth. Lords of air and water. This tome is the definitive sourcebook for creating and playing characters with ties to the Elemental Chaos and the primordial beings that dwell there. It shows how the elements can influence heroes of the natural world and presents elemental-themed character options for players.
In addition to discussing elemental power and presenting new character themes with strong story hooks, this book includes three new class builds--the elementalist, the sha'ir, and the shugenja--and new feats and paragon paths designed to tie existing characters more closely to the Elemental Chaos."
Bad news is, while the material might still be great, they don't seem to be very ambitious about this power source. Three builds - not classes, builds - and only three. Themes are nice, but unless they go Dark Sun with them or perhaps some gestalt between DS and the latest styles (which basically would make a theme into an easy multiclass) there don't seem to be any big new ideas here. Schwalb is involved, so this may at least be a good book, despite appearing to be so limited based on this description.
Sha'ir
Shugenja
=
Wizard
Warlock
Cleric
?
[
We've had this discussion before, and I kind of thought you had conceeded this point. The vampire is, bar none, the weakest striker, weaker than other strikers cited as too weak to live. They don't adequately dabble in other roles like warlocks or sorcerers to compensate for the fact that their damage is worse than some defenders.
It's a failure by any definiton.
No. I conceded it did lower damage. I did not concede it's a failure of a class, and frankly, to say that it is a failure is laughable.
Sure, there are always some random WotC apologists out there, but the overwhelming majority of these forums (and most importantly the CharOp forum) has judged HoS as a pretty complete failure.
It might just be me, but CharOp is the LAST place I'd go for info on how good a book was. (Haven't bought anything since start of Essentials BTW) In CharOp a book sucks if it doesn't have a ton of new crunch that makes the cracked out builds even better (theoretical or not).
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4E's Char Op boards are a solid resource. Just because pre-4E had absurd garbage in char op doesn't mean that it carried over to this edition, since 4E actually has some measure of balance.
Why may I ask? The PRIMAL SPIRITS dislike the Primordials more then they misstrust the gods.
Althogh in retrospect Shugenja could be a shaman. But thats only 1 out of 3.
BTW I work first shift and am heading to bed so will not respond to any comment.
unless its in 5 min
That sounds good but I don't know if it's good enough to make a stronger conection between the two power sources for me.
I really don't like to think that after two editions of waiting for a proper elemental class instead they'll just give us another mage, hexblade, and cleric and then the new uninteresting theme design as padding.
I may be practicing a little cognitive dissonence to keep myself from dreading how badly it looks like they're going to waste this opportunity.
I really don't like to think that after two editions of waiting for a proper elemental class instead they'll just give us another mage, hexblade, and cleric and then the new uninteresting theme design as padding.
Well I can't argue with that.
I wonder if those are a diffenitve list, or just a selection? I don't remember HoS' blurb (wasn't playing at that point) but did it list every build/race/class inside?
Some powersources are able to remain distinct, but others just cross the line into each other.
You keep saying this; saying something does not make it so when the overwhelming majority says something else.
You keep saying overwhelming majority, but saying that does not make it so either. Especially when there is no overwhelming majority. For instance, HoS was far more positively received at other RPG forums than this one, other than the Shade and Binder.
You keep saying overwhelming majority, but saying that does not make it so either. Especially when there is no overwhelming majority. For instance, HoS was far more positively received at other RPG forums than this one, other than the Shade and Binder.
Which forums were these?
Certainly not Enworld.
Then again, until they start putting out more hardback DM stuff instead of boxed sets, there's just nothing new that interests me in any way.
You keep saying this; saying something does not make it so when the overwhelming majority says something else.
You keep saying overwhelming majority, but saying that does not make it so either. Especially when there is no overwhelming majority. For instance, HoS was far more positively received at other RPG forums than this one, other than the Shade and Binder.
RPG.net and the 4E thread at Penny-Arcade didn't recieve HoS well either, except for the Blackguard. So my experience has been pretty different.
All the forums I frequent and that is quite a few all pretty much said the same thing which was other than the blackguard, which they said was good even though it was super simplistic. HOS was a steaming pile of crap to me that is a very large group and speaks volumes. Celtic I would like to know what forums you are talking about cause I would be courious to read what they had to say about HOS.
Then again, until they start putting out more hardback DM stuff instead of boxed sets, there's just nothing new that interests me in any way.
As bad as the box is, Gloomwrought is -seriously- worth getting. The box is horrible, no question, but such a delicious book.
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The thing with HoS is that it had a few good ideas, but it failed to produce many of them in a competent fashion, possibly partly because one or more of the designers left the team part-way through production. It's been mentioned before that some of the worst decisions were forced on some of the designers, as some sort of legacy from the earlier development of those. Hopefully this book won't get saddled with anything so ludicrous.
For what it's worth, I emailed WotC about the Amazon blurb to find out if it's inaccurate. It's incredibly far off for them to be announcing so little content with certainty, considering the Feywild book hasn't been given the same information yet.
In addition, the book had Blackguard (Paladin), Binder (Warlock), Vampire, Nethermancer Mage (Wizard), Death Domain Warpriest (Cleric), and new power options for Clerics, Warlocks, and Wizards. Not to mention races, feats, and flavour text, as well as the cut material that is appearing in Dragon (and finally we're getting those cut items this month in a Bazaar of the Bizarre!).
Elemental Heroes mentions Elementalist, Sha'ir, and Shugenja, and says builds. But it might have full subclasses (the build/subclass debate again), it may have builds for subclasses as well as subclasses, it may even have a full new class or two. WE DON'T KNOW YET.
I'm looking forward to seeing what is what. Also Sha'ir sounds to me like the Djinn/Efreet pact I've been clamouring for since 2009. NINE HELLS YES!!!
I really don't care about the classics, it's the new that I care about.
So that would mean more warlock stuff again, why does WOTC insist on putting warlock class/builds in every book now it has more than enough support lets get some support for the classes that need them.
I don't think it's really, "WE NEED MOAR WARLOCK SUPPORT!!!!" I think it's more along the lines of, "the Sha'ir is an iconic Elemental concept. But it also is closely akin to the Warlock concept. It would fit better as a subclass of Warlock, with either a Djinn Pact or an Efreet Pact." Of course, that statement is my own creation, and it may just be a single new pact (Sha'ir Pact) that appears for Hexblades, Binders, and O-Warlocks. But even then, the logic remains: it's less about what class we're supporting and more about where the flavour lines up. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they go back and retcon the Seeker into a fully primal Ranger subclass, though I doubt they'd do the same for any other class (Runepriest is just too different in terms of flavour from any other class, especially from the Battle Templar, despite similar ability scores).
Then again, until they start putting out more hardback DM stuff instead of boxed sets, there's just nothing new that interests me in any way.
As bad as the box is, Gloomwrought is -seriously- worth getting. The box is horrible, no question, but such a delicious book.
The book would never survive me. I destroy paperback books. Hell, I usually had my old Nintendo instruction booklets in pieces after the third day of opening a new game and I never even really used those damned things.
They were a group of element type casters who moved to the elemental chaos and were the anscestors of the modern genasi.
Or maybee not, it was one of three common told histories.
RPG.net and the 4E thread at Penny-Arcade didn't recieve HoS well either, except for the Blackguard. So my experience has been pretty different.
Uh ... no. HoS was in fact well received by RPG.net, except again, the Shade and Binder.
Not going to happen; he's pulling falsehoods out of his ass again. This fourm doesn't agree on much but this is one of those times. I'm going to hold my belief that this elemental book will be just as bad. Why? It's the same bad design team.
Sorry, no. I'm not the one pulling things out of nowhere. Oh sure, the WotC forums are largely negative, because the WotC forums hate everything. Everyone who has the audacity to actually like something knows better than to post here, except a few masochists such as myself, and I'm getting close to giving up on all of the trolls here.
RPG.net and the 4E thread at Penny-Arcade didn't recieve HoS well either, except for the Blackguard. So my experience has been pretty different.
Uh ... no. HoS was in fact well received by RPG.net, except again, the Shade and Binder.
We have a pretty different interpretation of "Well recieved" then obviously.
For what it's worth, I had a chat with a very nice WotC person today. They obviously couldn't confide me with any information, but they did say too never trust Amazon's blurbs, and that WotC may be working on mending the confusion caused by it soon. So I am feeling a bit relieved.
I hope your right...
how can yall not be excited about three new classes? this is great news
Because the word "builds" is right after the word "class".
RPG.net and the 4E thread at Penny-Arcade didn't recieve HoS well either, except for the Blackguard. So my experience has been pretty different.
Uh ... no. HoS was in fact well received by RPG.net, except again, the Shade and Binder.
Not going to happen; he's pulling falsehoods out of his ass again. This fourm doesn't agree on much but this is one of those times. I'm going to hold my belief that this elemental book will be just as bad. Why? It's the same bad design team.
Sorry, no. I'm not the one pulling things out of nowhere. Oh sure, the WotC forums are largely negative, because the WotC forums hate everything. Everyone who has the audacity to actually like something knows better than to post here, except a few masochists such as myself, and I'm getting close to giving up on all of the trolls here.
Are there two RPG.net s? and you are reading a different one then me? I'd agree with the others with the exception of the Blackguard, the review of HOS everywhere I read is not alot different then here (or my own opinon) ie fairly poor. Its too bad, HOS, is Hardback, which I love but is poor content, while Gloomwrought is much better content is a seriously poor box, and frankly a seriously bad format (square bound paperback).
Then again, until they start putting out more hardback DM stuff instead of boxed sets, there's just nothing new that interests me in any way.
As bad as the box is, Gloomwrought is -seriously- worth getting. The box is horrible, no question, but such a delicious book.
The book would never survive me. I destroy paperback books. Hell, I usually had my old Nintendo instruction booklets in pieces after the third day of opening a new game and I never even really used those damned things.
The main book is Hardback.
We are talking about The Shadowfell:Gloomwrough and Beyond, and neither book in it are hardback, they are square bound paperbacks (ie bound like the digest books) but are full 11 x 8.5 size, plus the map, the cards and the pogs.
how can yall not be excited about three new classes? this is great news
I have nearly as little excitement for elemental "builds" as I did shadow ones. If it turnes out to be full classes for more than spell casters I might change my mind. I just don't see the likelyhood.
Though I agree I would like to see full classes, I think I'd take even casters if they werent the favored three (wizard and Warlock and Cleric oh my). If they gave us Sorceror, Bard and Invoker builds that at least would be something more interesting.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
Subclasses ruin new class concepts because it has to play nice with whats already there. Also means its less likely to receive feat support, or much support at all..unless your a mage or warpriest.
That said, if on the off-chance that Elemental does have a number of full classes, i'd generally expect them to be caster-oriented.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
Subclasses ruin new class concepts because it has to play nice with whats already there. Also means its less likely to receive feat support, or much support at all..unless your a mage or warpriest.
That said, if on the off-chance that Elemental does have a number of full classes, i'd generally expect them to be caster-oriented.
if you have a new class concept...just make it into one of the classes we have and there its all good. you get your concept and it adds new stuff to already had class
how can yall not be excited about three new classes? this is great news
I have nearly as little excitement for elemental "builds" as I did shadow ones. If it turnes out to be full classes for more than spell casters I might change my mind. I just don't see the likelyhood.
Though I agree I would like to see full classes, I think I'd take even casters if they werent the favored three (wizard and Warlock and Cleric oh my). If they gave us Sorceror, Bard and Invoker builds that at least would be something more interesting.
Invoker would be a good fit for the Shugenja, IMO. Of course, I would like to see the Shugenja be an all new class with four subclasses, each with a different role (Earth for Defender, Water for Leader, Air for Controller, Fire for Striker). Perhaps they all could be Invoker subclasses for Invokers that choose primordials instead of gods.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
NO SUBCLASS PLEASE. Subclasses are great in theory but it was far to late implemented so a big no-no.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
NO SUBCLASS PLEASE. Subclasses are great in theory but it was far to late implemented so a big no-no.
not really....they were added nicely, i am very happy they are going with sub-classes way.....best way they can take the game
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
Subclasses ruin new class concepts because it has to play nice with whats already there. Also means its less likely to receive feat support, or much support at all..unless your a mage or warpriest.
That said, if on the off-chance that Elemental does have a number of full classes, i'd generally expect them to be caster-oriented.
From what I've heard, at least a few people at WotC are big fans of Avatar: The Last Air Bender, so there's a good chance that they've embraced a more physical view of elementalists, as I have in the blog post in my sig. Elemental is really so much more flexible than just blasting.
As for subclasses, I remain of the opinion that they should release an simple build (slayer, etc), and a medium build (hexblade, etc) for every major iconic concept (including wizards), and then move on unless there's a distinct demand for more, or it works SO well (like with monster classes) conceptually that it's the better option overall.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
NO SUBCLASS PLEASE. Subclasses are great in theory but it was far to late implemented so a big no-no.
not really....they were added nicely, i am very happy they are going with sub-classes way.....best way they can take the game
No. This is grade-A horsecrap and you bloody well know it. Subclasses should be tossed in the bin with the rest of the trash, set on fire, and then bleached from memory. You follow?
Full classes only, and I'll consider letting WotC have my money. That's all there is to it.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we dont need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
NO SUBCLASS PLEASE. Subclasses are great in theory but it was far to late implemented so a big no-no.
not really....they were added nicely, i am very happy they are going with sub-classes way.....best way they can take the game
As above, but you are entitled to yuo opinion
not really....they were added nicely, i am very happy they are going with sub-classes way.....best way they can take the game
This kind of blind belief is just disturbing. Subclasses are a failure in just about every conceveable way. Compare any of your Subclasses and their straight jacket designs with any class that came before. The options alone for the older classes are what made them great.
so a subclass cant be an AEDU with all new class features and powers but be under the class like Fighter?
so a subclass cant be an AEDU with all new class features and powers but be under the class like Fighter?
That's not a subclass, that's a new build option, and they've had those since PHB1.
I would love to see a proliferation of Build Options. Really, all it would require to make a new "subclass" is the mechanics for the new build option itself, and maybe one power at each level that has a rider specific to that build option. And as long as the new build option itself doesn't suck in comparison to the other options for that class (*cough*ensnaringswordmage*cough*), there's no reason that that kind of proliferation couldn't go on nearly indefinitely.
But as long as the "subclass" is defined as a predetermined or mostly-so set of powers, as it has been up to this point, put me in with the "thanks but no thanks" crowd.
so a subclass cant be an AEDU with all new class features and powers but be under the class like Fighter?
That's not a subclass, that's a new build option, and they've had those since PHB1.
I would love to see a proliferation of Build Options. Really, all it would require to make a new "subclass" is the mechanics for the new build option itself, and maybe one power at each level that has a rider specific to that build option. And as long as the new build option itself doesn't suck in comparison to the other options for that class (*cough*ensnaringswordmage*cough*), there's no reason that that kind of proliferation couldn't go on nearly indefinitely.
But as long as the "subclass" is defined as a predetermined or mostly-so set of powers, as it has been up to this point, put me in with the "thanks but no thanks" crowd.
but what if the subclass does not have any of the class features from weaponmaster, it is a elemental and martial and is in the role of controller, has controller hp but is AEDU so it can share all its powers with weaponmaster and U powers with weaponmaster, knight and slayer.... is that not a subclass?
I hope they just give us subclasses....we don't need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
See, I'm the opposite. 32-34 classes is closer to what I want to see. Full builds for the two last Power sources, then other subclasses can come in. I hate the fact that they are making power sources additive by default. You may not want any more classes, but I do.
I hope they just give us subclasses....we don't need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
See, I'm the opposite. 32-34 classes is closer to what I want to see. Full builds for the two last Power sources, then other subclasses can come in. I hate the fact that they are making power sources additive by default. You may not want any more classes, but I do.
i guess what i am trying to get at is....SUBCLASSES ARE NEW CLASSES, just that they can share their power with other classes like weaponmaster or knight or slayer......i love the idea of adding stuff to the 26 classes we have aready but make new classes and subclasses get it done...making new classes and adding to old ones
I hope they just give us subclasses....we don't need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
See, I'm the opposite. 32-34 classes is closer to what I want to see. Full builds for the two last Power sources, then other subclasses can come in. I hate the fact that they are making power sources additive by default. You may not want any more classes, but I do.
Same here
I hope they just give us subclasses....we don't need new classes, we got 26 classes already...i think we are fine with the classes...just give us subclasses that could help one of the classes we have
See, I'm the opposite. 32-34 classes is closer to what I want to see. Full builds for the two last Power sources, then other subclasses can come in. I hate the fact that they are making power sources additive by default. You may not want any more classes, but I do.
i guess what i am trying to get at is....SUBCLASSES ARE NEW CLASSES, just that they can share their power with other classes like weaponmaster or knight or slayer......i love the idea of adding stuff to the 26 classes we have aready but make new classes and subclasses get it done...making new classes and adding to old ones
Subclasses are just glorified builds. subclasses arent new classes especially not under the essentials design philosophy as most things doesnt fit.
I
i guess what i am trying to get at is....SUBCLASSES ARE NEW CLASSES, just that they can share their power with other classes like weaponmaster or knight or slayer......i love the idea of adding stuff to the 26 classes we have aready but make new classes and subclasses get it done...making new classes and adding to old ones
Subclasses are just glorified builds. subclasses arent new classes especially not under the essentials design philosophy as most things doesnt fit.
i am sorry but they are their own classes. like how the Binder is its own class away from the PH1 warlock (whatever its name going to be) and Hexblade but they can share daily spells, own class but can share...and without having to take a feat or hybrid. the only time you take a feat is for class features...even then i understand that
I
i guess what i am trying to get at is....SUBCLASSES ARE NEW CLASSES, just that they can share their power with other classes like weaponmaster or knight or slayer......i love the idea of adding stuff to the 26 classes we have aready but make new classes and subclasses get it done...making new classes and adding to old ones
Subclasses are just glorified builds. subclasses arent new classes especially not under the essentials design philosophy as most things doesnt fit.
i am sorry but they are their own classes. like how the Binder is its own class away from the PH1 warlock (whatever its name going to be) and Hexblade but they can share daily spells, own class but can share...and without having to take a feat or hybrid. the only time you take a feat is for class features...even then i understand that
tell me how? fluff wise almost the same, crunch wise totaly diffrent. I base builds on fluff so glorified builds as most if not all subclasses can be easily redone as builds but not as its own classes...
I
i guess what i am trying to get at is....SUBCLASSES ARE NEW CLASSES, just that they can share their power with other classes like weaponmaster or knight or slayer......i love the idea of adding stuff to the 26 classes we have aready but make new classes and subclasses get it done...making new classes and adding to old ones
Subclasses are just glorified builds. subclasses arent new classes especially not under the essentials design philosophy as most things doesnt fit.
i am sorry but they are their own classes. like how the Binder is its own class away from the PH1 warlock (whatever its name going to be) and Hexblade but they can share daily spells, own class but can share...and without having to take a feat or hybrid. the only time you take a feat is for class features...even then i understand that
tell me how? fluff wise almost the same, crunch wise totaly diffrent. I base builds on fluff so glorified builds as most if not all subclasses can be easily redone as builds but not as its own classes...
subclasses are not builds.....subclasses are their own class but can share. like how the stuff from the power books are builds, not classes. subclasses have their own class features that another class cant get without a feat. i am talking like how knight has the class feature power strike, and weaponmaster has encounter powers. they both have to take a feat if they want the other. that what makes subclasses but with Utility powers they can share without having a feat and look i got two new classes with Heroes of the fallen lands but also got some powers out of it for my weaponmaster. they not being 100% working together does not affect my weaponmaster at all. that is the beauty of subclasses
The binder is a pretty bad example. The binder is a warlock, minus the striker feature, with restrictive powers that arent honestly any better than warlock powers at controlling.
Its fluff is pretty much "Your a warlock who makes pacts with different things than other warlocks".
I wanted to like this thing, I wanted it to demo how subclasses could do cool things. But honestly this subclass is just sad.
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I actually wanted to play one very, very badly. When I got a look at HoS, it was the first class I went too. And in fact, is the only class I've given a thorough look over in all of Essentials.
However, having looked over it fairly thoroughly, Its just...not a controler. Its wayy too focused on immobilizes, slows, and movemement impairement.
Its also oddly lacking an at-will aoe. Shadow Dirge or whatever the Gloom Pact one is called, is the closest thing, and kind of a sad version of the mage's Arc Lightning.
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I want to play a Binder as well, believe me I do! It's just a deny class all the way!
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I actually wanted to play one very, very badly. When I got a look at HoS, it was the first class I went too. And in fact, is the only class I've given a thorough look over in all of Essentials.
However, having looked over it fairly thoroughly, Its just...not a controler. Its wayy too focused on immobilizes, slows, and movemement impairement.
Its also oddly lacking an at-will aoe. Shadow Dirge or whatever the Gloom Pact one is called, is the closest thing, and kind of a sad version of the mage's Arc Lightning.
but is immobilizes, slows and movement impairement part of being a controller?
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I actually wanted to play one very, very badly. When I got a look at HoS, it was the first class I went too. And in fact, is the only class I've given a thorough look over in all of Essentials.
However, having looked over it fairly thoroughly, Its just...not a controler. Its wayy too focused on immobilizes, slows, and movemement impairement.
Its also oddly lacking an at-will aoe. Shadow Dirge or whatever the Gloom Pact one is called, is the closest thing, and kind of a sad version of the mage's Arc Lightning.
but is immobilizes, slows and movement impairement part of being a controller?
Sure. But thats like saying the original Assassin is a solid striker because it can deal damage. Even if said damage is lower than than some non-strikers.
Other controllers can do everything the Binder does without being restricted.
Movement impedement is kind of weak. If thats all you can do, you better hope you fight monsters that want to move alot. Thats not even counting monsters than can teleport, ignoring all your slows and such anyway.
From what I've seen atleast, movement imparment is largely overshadowed by stuff like pushes, slides, weakens, slows, dominates, and the rare Unconcious.
I also don't like being forced to take alot of party-unfriendly AOE encounter powers.
That said, don't let me ruin your fun. Give the binder a spin for youself.
As a note, Im sorry for constant editing, its early in the morning here and I dont know why I haven't gone to bed yet.
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I actually wanted to play one very, very badly. When I got a look at HoS, it was the first class I went too. And in fact, is the only class I've given a thorough look over in all of Essentials.
However, having looked over it fairly thoroughly, Its just...not a controler. Its wayy too focused on immobilizes, slows, and movemement impairement.
Its also oddly lacking an at-will aoe. Shadow Dirge or whatever the Gloom Pact one is called, is the closest thing, and kind of a sad version of the mage's Arc Lightning.
but is immobilizes, slows and movement impairment part of being a controller?
Yes, they are. They're just not everything a controller does. And no, I have no interest in anything from HoS, beyond perhaps the single Vampire-like race. Pretty much everything else is sub-par to what started this edition.
Also, my exact problem with subclasses is that they owe something to their parent class. I want new classes with no ties to an originator class, and thus no ties to the power source of that class, nor the ability to "share" with the class. It makes it feel more unique, more special if the class is it's own thing instead of another riff on something that already exists.
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
I actually wanted to play one very, very badly. When I got a look at HoS, it was the first class I went too. And in fact, is the only class I've given a thorough look over in all of Essentials.
However, having looked over it fairly thoroughly, Its just...not a controler. Its wayy too focused on immobilizes, slows, and movemement impairement.
Its also oddly lacking an at-will aoe. Shadow Dirge or whatever the Gloom Pact one is called, is the closest thing, and kind of a sad version of the mage's Arc Lightning.
but is immobilizes, slows and movement impairment part of being a controller?
Yes, they are. They're just not everything a controller does. And no, I have no interest in anything from HoS, beyond perhaps the single Vampire-like race. Pretty much everything else is sub-par to what started this edition.
Also, my exact problem with subclasses is that they owe something to their parent class. I want new classes with no ties to an originator class, and thus no ties to the power source of that class, nor the ability to "share" with the class. It makes it feel more unique, more special if the class is it's own thing instead of another riff on something that already exists.
why cant we have a shaman that is just shadow....just pure shadow but thanks to it being a shaman...the leader shaman can get some shadow powers and the shadow shamn can get some primal powers
but is immobilizes, slows and movement impairement part of being a controller?
You mean what a regular Warlock does, with better powers, more damage and better class features than the Binder?
Then yes. There is literally no reason to play a Binder over a Warlock unless you deliberately want to pick an underpowered and near useless option compared with its parent class.
Personally, I'm rather intrigued by this book; I've been toying with the idea of adding some element-based villains for a while, now. I mean, come on! A Fire Genasi Elementalist hurling huge plumes of flame in a small village, scorching houses while his men loot, pillage, and murder.. That screams 'epic' in my books.
You don't need classes or builds to do this, though. Monsters are not made by the same rules PCs are made by.
Give it a melee basic with a rider or typed damage.
Give it a ranged basic with the same.
Give it an encounter power that recharges on a 5+.
Give it an encounter power that does not recharge but does tons of damage.
Give it the Fire Genasi racial.
Give it some other triggered ability that recharges when bloodied.
Stat it like an Elite Solo Artillery.
Fire Genasi Elementalist villain is made.
The additional bonus is that it will fit the concept in your head perfectly, where whatever is published in Heroes of the Elements may not.
Personally, I'm rather intrigued by this book; I've been toying with the idea of adding some element-based villains for a while, now. I mean, come on! A Fire Genasi Elementalist hurling huge plumes of flame in a small village, scorching houses while his men loot, pillage, and murder.. That screams 'epic' in my books.
You don't need classes or builds to do this, though. Monsters are not made by the same rules PCs are made by.
Give it a melee basic with a rider or typed damage.
Give it a ranged basic with the same.
Give it an encounter power that recharges on a 5+.
Give it an encounter power that does not recharge but does tons of damage.
Give it the Fire Genasi racial.
Give it some other triggered ability that recharges when bloodied.
Stat it like an Elite Solo Artillery.
Fire Genasi Elementalist villain is made.
The additional bonus is that it will fit the concept in your head perfectly, where whatever is published in Heroes of the Elements may not.
Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate it.
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
I am not tempted by themes. Then again, I prefered the older style of publications as well. I'm just unable to buy a new product every month, even if I wanted to.
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
You are aware that the old PHB 2 and 3 have themes (the wilds/primal spirits and in 3 the treat of the far realm)?
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
You are aware that the old PHB 2 and 3 have themes (the wilds/primal spirits and in 3 the treat of the far realm)?
It did have loose themes, true. The books just didn't revolve around them. They did have central introductory power sources, but they didn't devote the entire book to them.
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
I am not tempted by themes. Then again, I prefered the older style of publications as well. I'm just unable to buy a new product every month, even if I wanted to.
The themes idea as more fluff to the world and helps you add to your own world if you want to....that is why the books around a Theme is a great idea
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
I am not tempted by themes. Then again, I prefered the older style of publications as well. I'm just unable to buy a new product every month, even if I wanted to.
The themes idea as more fluff to the world and helps you add to your own world if you want to....that is why the books around a Theme is a great idea
Not really for me. I can add to my own world all on my own. I'm glad the themes are there for people less inventive than I, but for me, it just ends up feeling like I'm being told how to play my game; it gets in the way for me more than it helps.
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
Meh, I prefer thematic books to be sold separately from crunch books.
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
I am not tempted by themes. Then again, I prefered the older style of publications as well. I'm just unable to buy a new product every month, even if I wanted to.
The themes idea as more fluff to the world and helps you add to your own world if you want to....that is why the books around a Theme is a great idea
Not really for me. I can add to my own world all on my own. I'm glad the themes are there for people less inventive than I, but for me, it just ends up feeling like I'm being told how to play my game; it gets in the way for me more than it helps.
well i am glad you can add to your own world but with themes, you can look at them and maybe you have something on your own and say oh this could add to it
While I would prefer the old method, it's likely that WotC got some feedback that suggested that many players wanted books that revolved around a theme so that the group could just grab one book and based a campaign on it. Think of the HoS as the Player's Guide to the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond campaign setting. The way they're tightening up themes in their issues suggests this as well - they may not be able to tempt someone with a single article of what they want run with, but what about five in one issue?
Meh, I prefer thematic books to be sold separately from crunch books.
if you think about it....the powers books had a theme, the theme was base around the power sources. now they are doing themes around something of the D&D world that alot of people have been wanting to know more about the D&D world...and here they are giving you powers/subclasses/feats and you also getting mroe info about the D&D world
The definition of theme is getting stretched out here. We should probably reign it in or we'll start talking about how the PHB1 had an Adventure theme.
but i am right, the martial power book have all about martial...so the theme of the book was martial power source
HoS is about dark, brooding heroes with dark, brooding powers derived from shadow, also plus the vampire because they scrapped Ravenloft.
It's not about providing additional options to Shadow classes, but rather about providing shadow options to non-shadow classes.
You do realize that in the parlance of the game theme and power source do not mean the same thing? Your arguing that because MP was about marital characters and sold well a book on the elemental subclasses will to? When all evidence suggests that PHB1 is still outselling the HoS and HoFK books.
Actually that's not even it really. Themes are nore like backgrounds they give you a benifit during character creation. Power sources give you a benifit for the entire game.
What i am saying is, each book has a theme. PH1 had Arcane, Divine, and martial heroes, PH2 had Primal, Arcan and Divine heroes, now get to Heroes of shadow, it has Shadow heroes but they put a nice twist to it....they added new classes which also added to classes we had, again that is why Subclasses are great. they are new classes but help out other classes we have.
You do realize that in the parlance of the game theme and power source do not mean the same thing? Your arguing that because MP was about marital characters and sold well a book on the elemental subclasses will to? When all evidence suggests that PHB1 is still outselling the HoS and HoFK books.
Actually that's not even it really. Themes are nore like backgrounds they give you a benifit during character creation. Power sources give you a benifit for the entire game.
What i am saying is, each book has a theme. PH1 had Arcane, Divine, and martial heroes, PH2 had Primal, Arcan and Divine heroes, now get to Heroes of shadow, it has Shadow heroes but they put a nice twist to it....they added new classes which also added to classes we had, again that is why Subclasses are great. they are new classes but help out other classes we have.
edit: where is my post gone?
but it was basicly: apples and oranges.
am i the only one that wants to play a binder?
im probably the only person on the forum that has played a paragon binder (also many heroic games). it was fun
the major problem with binders is you cannot choose to just keep old encounter powers, you are forced to take new ones. i dont know why they did this but the net result imo is a sweet spot at level 11-16, but unfortunate forced choices at higher levels
Someone who is native and eloquent in English should write that letter and then have it signed by all of us who dislike the new direction.
Power to this idea
Someone who is native and eloquent in English should write that letter and then have it signed by all of us who dislike the new direction.
Isn't that what Erachmina (sorry if this is not the correct spelling) did? Only to have her account banhammered for a week or so afterword. Mearls obvoiusly doesn't much care what we think.
Nothing personal, but Erachima (sp?) is hardly polite most of the time. That her account was banned could have been for someth else, though not likely. If they banned her for that letter than that's a serious bad on the WotC part.
But polite again is a serious issue with most of the commentary I've seen.
At any rate, ask her yourself. Any banning or discipline she had was temporary. She's back and posting. Oh, and the blog was restored as well.
While it's not impossble for WotC to react negatively to hyperbolic statements, polite and well-considered criticism isn't going to bring about retaliation - if it did this forum would be a ghost town.
It really does no good to delve into conspiracy theories. WotC employees might be sinister behind the DM screen, but that's not going to apply to their other practices.
While it's not impossble for WotC to react negatively to hyperbolic statements, polite and well-considered criticism isn't going to bring about retaliation - if it did this forum would be a ghost town.
This is a company that was banning people for posting a link to a file stored on this very website, simply because nobody knew whose job it was to remove the file (or something) and so it never got done. Instead: banned for talking about it.
Not at all suprised that someone like Erachima calling out the Devs on how low their systems mastery is would also result in a ban.
I can virtually guarantee you that it was not the reason she got the banhammer, since I've forwarded dozens of comprehensive criticisms of Essentials on to the powers that be, many of which were far less civil than erachima's, and none of them have been banhammered.
At any rate, ask her yourself. Any banning or discipline she had was temporary. She's back and posting. Oh, and the blog was restored as well.
I find it very difficult to believe that she was banned for posting a blog that is still on the website. I've linked to it and have not been banned. People should stop spinning conspiracy theories about erachima and ask her if she knows what happened.
edited to add: By her posting history, she was off the forums between May 27 and May 31. Oddly enough, that's also the long Memorial Day weekend here in the States. Now, I have no idea what happened, but it makes no sense to think it has to do with that blog, which is still onthe system!
Baker and Schwalb are both strong. Baker tends to produce solid designs and archetypes, and Schwalb compelling flavor. Good team up.
I hope it goes with easily-customizable o4e design. If so, I bet it turns out the best.
What I wonder is how they will approach damage types vs. elemental types. Three of the four elements are more or less "untyped" in their standard form, and there are more elemental schemes than just air, earth, fire, and water.
If Essential was only about bring new players to the game, it would have stopped at the 10 product Essetnial line.
All the new builds that use Essential like design, kind of show that it is also about producing simpler classes for people to use and making life easier for designers. For these reasons I see it staying.
Yep, but there has been a vocal outcry about this decision, and Heroes of Shadow was widely rejected as a poor product. So it is likely that they either revert back to classic 4e design or try something new again. My bet is on classic 4e since it is the safer choice.
When did Slavicsek get let go? If this does herald a change is design I hope for a reverting to original 4th edition style.
Last week, either Wed or Thurs. It's a shame really, I think he was the only guy left from TSR's days.
Aren't Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell from TSR too? Methinks Baker worked on 2e Dark Sun and Cordell did Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
Aren't Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell from TSR too? Methinks Baker worked on 2e Dark Sun and Cordell did Return to the Tomb of Horrors.
They both are some of the (now very few) holdovers from the TSR acquisition, perhaps the only two left in R&D (the others I can think of are/were in other groups). Checking their bios... Cordell only joined TSR a couple years before WotC bought them; Baker had been there a few years longer.
i liked HoS. i have a friend who plays an executioner and one who wants to play a b.guard. i myself enjoy the binder, like the vampire despite its flaws, and love hexblades so ofcourse i loved the gloom pact hexblade too. the plethora or powers for mage/wizard and death domain were neat too. so if its additive or a stand alone power source i wont mind i'm just always excited to see new stuff.
what do i expect? new domains, maybe something akin to a shugenja, infernal binder. anything is possible really. maybe something completely out of left field that will surprise us all like a umm i dunno but itll be crazy!
Conceptually, it's a close-range-or-melee striker that can specialize in either, with further specialization for a preference of elements. The listed one is all about converting one element to another, but specific elemental focuses can be easily put together as well.
The thrust of the class is that it has something of a pulsating striker mechanic. You can build up to a constant stream of bonus damage, or you can build up, hit big, then start back from square one, with bonus effects if you use your explosive damage on bigger powers, creating a class that actually has to think about whether it wants to nova in the first round or not.
Fair warning though: I arted. And it may cause psychic damage.