Will we see rolls covered by specific elemental types? Fire Strikers, Earth Defenders, Water Leaders, Air Controllers? Will we see summoning type attacks linked to elements? What about transformation or channeling effects?
What's your best guess so far?
my guess is that they're going to put a lot less thought into it than you are.
Why?
Though I have to say, it looks like your first reaction to anything new is immediate unrelenting negativity, no matter how contradictory or nonsensical your complaints may be...
I relent, if you read the later post in my Invoker thread I admited to being shortsighted and now I see that the Invoker can bring something new to the table (with a little tweaking). Granted my first reaction to anything is immediate negativity, we're called pessimists and the world would not function without us, and those that ignore us are called tools.
This a way out there qustion but it's an honest issue. If you take a look at Arcane and Primal powers they seem to gobble up most of the Elemental effects you could ever want. Most the Wizard, Sword Mage, and most likely the upcoming Sorcer tricks over the classical elements. The Warden, Druid, and others of the Primal source cover earth/weather based effects. So what does that leave us?
Will we see rolls covered by specific elemental types? Fire Strikers, Earth Defenders, Water Leaders, Air Controllers? Will we see summoning type attacks linked to elements? What about transformation or channeling effects?
What's your best guess so far?
Way out there?? You must mean, like, "way in the future" because it doesn't seem like a strange or out of place question at all.
I think the focus for the Elemental power source will probably be something like creation & destruction. Mechanically, I think that might translate into powers that primarily summon elemental creatures, conjure zones and effects, channel energy, and transform matter. There is still room for wizard-like fiery blasts and druid-like monsoon winds, but these may come from elemental minions or breaches into the Elemental Chaos.
I don't think the 1 element:1 role thing will come about through the fundamental class design. It seems more likely that the devs would allow you to specialize on your own through power choice, but allow each class to be viable with more than a single element. If they get specific, maybe not all elements will be viable for each class, but at least more than one. (Side Note: One worry I have about "forced" specialization in one element is resistance. However, is there any form of elemental defense in 4e (energy resistance, save bonus, etc.) that is granted by a power or ritual?)
With the Elemental power source, I hope to see classes that capture character concepts like benders, shugenja (pending shaman), Dark Sun clerics, sha'irs, summoners, transmuters, and physicists!
For instance, one Elemental Leader build would get Cleansing Flames, while another would get Healing Waters. The Striker would get elementaly enhanced mobility. (This is what a rogue would multi into to be a Naruto ninja)
I expect Elemental classes will be able to use elements to DO things, not just damage.
For instance, one Elemental Leader build would get Cleansing Flames, while another would get Healing Waters. The Striker would get elementaly enhanced mobility. (This is what a rogue would multi into to be a Naruto ninja)
Nice distinction. However, I like "manipulating" rather than "DO"-ing.
Ice constructs like bridges or weapons maybe vs. blasts of cold.Question remaining is how to differentiate this doing and manipulating from "just another wizard spell." Not that wizards wouldn't ever be able to mimic it, because they conceivably (story-wise) can do that with most anything. But kinda something along the lines of the difference between how anyone can learn rituals but only wizards can hurl spells under the pressure of combat. I guess.........What should Elemental characters be able to do with elements, energy, and matter(?) that other classes can't? Edit: Not to hijack.....I think this is part of answering the OP.
Chlorine and Titanium elementals are fun enough, but I'll take Arsenic and Mercury for 1000, Trebek.
With all the elements in the Periodic Table, I'd expect that there are a LOT of things that they could do. There's what? One-hundred and eleven known elements, why they'd have a lot to choose from.
Chlorine and Titanium elementals are fun enough, but I'll take Arsenic and Mercury for 1000, Trebek.
Blast of Californium. Wall of Einstenium.
Elemental controler needs a 4e version of the 2e Summon Elemental Monolith spell :P (Yes that was a complete joke). Actually I have to ask, where did WotC announce an Elemental power source, I haven't heard anything offical about it?
PH pg. 54.
you joke about periodic table and physicists but thats what were talking about in D&D terms.
Earth, Fire, Water, Air, that is the periodic table of elements and those that understand them understand the physics of D&D.
The principles of Alchemy and transmutation tell us that everything is formed from those four energies; so to master the elements is to master the physical realm, the world around them is their sword and shield.
Sorry... couldn't resist...
With the Elemental power source, I hope to see classes that capture character concepts like benders, shugenja (pending shaman), Dark Sun clerics, sha'irs, summoners, transmuters, and physicists!
The Divine classes are linked to the Astral Sea, primal are attached to the Prime Plane, and I guess we'll see Elemental classes linked to the Elemental Chaos and maybe to the Abyss too.
Then the terms "Elemental" would not be linked with sorcerers, wizards, druids, etc. as it used to be, but it would designate followers & worshippers of the godlike beings of the Elemental Chaos, the Primordials, like the Divine classes designates the followers of the Astral Sea's deities ; so, we could see some kind of Elemental Paladin, some Elemental Clerics, Elementals Summoners could be the equivalent of Invokers etc.
IMO, if Elemental classes are more close to Divine classes in terms of concept, then they'll be set apart from Arcane.
Then the terms "Elemental" would not be linked with sorcerers, wizards, druids, etc. as it used to be, but it would designate followers & worshippers of the godlike beings of the Elemental Chaos, the Primordials, like the Divine classes designates the followers of the Astral Sea's deities ; so, we could see some kind of Elemental Paladin, some Elemental Clerics, Elementals Summoners could be the equivalent of Invokers etc.
here's some stuff from MotP:
Though the primordials cling to only a tiny fraction
of the power they held before their war with
the deities, they still have servants and worshipers—
elementals and mortals who view them as patrons,
guides, or potential allies against the gods and their
servants.
But seeing how nearly all primordials have the same goal of ripping apart the material world, primordial servant classes might not be "heroic" enough.
In the words of Mr. Macky: "that's bad, mmmmmmkaay"
"I like your shirt. Pity it's made of ACID!"
As an aside, It's important to realise that the Classical Elements co-exist with the periodic table. They've just been renamed as the "States of Matter".
Earth = Solids
Water = Liquids
Air = Gas
Fire = Plasma
Easy answer? Transmutation. Lots of abilitys that change something into something else. Petrification is a no-brainer.
"I like your shirt. Pity it's made of ACID!"
As an aside, It's important to realise that the Classical Elements co-exist with the periodic table. They've just been renamed as the "States of Matter".
Earth = Solids
Water = Liquids
Air = Gas
Fire = Plasma
Fire doesn't really work as representing plasma. It isn't anywhere near having the same properties. My personal view, if you are going to try to associate the elements like that would be:
Earth- Solids
Water- Liquids
Air- Gases
Fire- Chemical Reations
Lightning- Plasmas
Fire doesn't really work as representing plasma. It isn't anywhere near having the same properties.
*Confused* But that's what fire IS. Seriously. Textbook example.
Lighting is plasma too. Which would mean a fire-elementist would be throwing around fireballs, lightning bolts, and delicious combinations of the two.
*Confused* But that's what fire IS. Seriously. Textbook example.
Lighting is plasma too. Which would mean a fire-elementist would be throwing around fireballs, lightning bolts, and delicious combinations of the two.
I admit that I'm not a chemist, but I thought that you either needed a lot more energy or a much higher concentration of energy to make plasma than was present in fire.
I thought the sun was plasma witch was a super state of gas/liquide more of an energy then a state of matter...
Depends on the material, really. Plasma is basically gas with the outer layer of electrons removed (and jumping around on their own, obviously). Because the electrons are free-moving, it has a lot of properties that gasses don't have, such as being a conductor of electricity. Anyhow, fire has plasma (so the greeks kinda had a point with the earth, air, fire, water elements since they represent different states of matter). To be clear though, not everything in fire is plasma, but some of it is (the hotter it is the more plasma is in it).
Anyhow, this is all kinda moot, because D&D physics are not at all like real physics.
Perhaps they might be a focus on all of them, or to be more specific on manipulating or changing the elements around. For instance, a character is about to be crushed by a heavy boulder, they turn said boulder to air. The enemy is standing on a cliff, turn the cliff into water and they fall. Etc. Sure some work should be done, but I think it would be fun to have classes focus on switching the elements around to their advantage.
A striker could have powers that let them burrow through the earth to surprise a foe. A Controller may have a power where the air in a number of foes lungs is turned into fire. A defender has power where air comes from behind him keeping enemies from moving forward. A leader could conjure a wave of water that hits everyone healing allies and punishing foes. All this is accomplished by converting or manipulating the existing 'elements' that are around the foe. Genasi of course, would be prone to taking this class.
Different powers use different elements in their construction. Heck, the controller could actually conjure elementals or creatures from one of the planes to fight for them. That would be kind of neat in my opinion.
So, here's my vote that the elemental classes are based around switching around or manipulating all the elements and not limited to one particular type.
Divine powers are gifts from the gods.
Arcane powers are learnt, studied and purchased (sometimes with the soul).
Primal powers are discovered and manifested.
Elemental Powers are STOLEN from the Primordials.
As far as flavour goes, I'm thinking something like this:
Divine powers are gifts from the gods.
Arcane powers are learnt, studied and purchased (sometimes with the soul).
Primal powers are discovered and manifested.
Elemental Powers are STOLEN from the Primordials.
I like this. I like this a lot.
I still would like to see 4 classes, one of each element. In the fiction that the elemental power source will likely represent, characters are generally students of one element, or at least favor one element over the others. Sure, they could do it other ways, but I really hope it's done this way.
air=controller
fire=striker
earth=defender
water=healer
i like it waves of healing washing over the group, fire burning the enimies, it lends it self to great synergy with genisis.
So a leader would have a Water build (with "Healing Waters") and a Fire build (with "Cleansing Flames")
We either get 4 ~ 5 classes with narrow choices that get totally negated by certain monsters (5th being Aether/Void/Nothing).
Or over 100 classes...
Think 'bout it.
As far as flavour goes, I'm thinking something like this:
Divine powers are gifts from the gods.
Arcane powers are learnt, studied and purchased (sometimes with the soul).
Primal powers are discovered and manifested.
Elemental Powers are STOLEN from the Primordials.
And:
-Martial powers are from training and skill.
-Ki powers are from harnessing your soul.
-Psionic powers are from focusing your mind.
-Shadow powers are from learning mysteries of the Shadowfell.
Or something like that?
We either get 4 ~ 5 classes with narrow choices that get totally negated by certain monsters (5th being Aether/Void/Nothing).
That doesn't have to be so. As you can see from the feats for bonus damage to elements, the 4E designers have already drawn some sort of connection between fire/radiant, cold/acid, and thunder/lightning. Fire/radiant can easily be Fire, cold/acid can be Water, and thunder/lightning can be Air. Earth is all physical damage, so it doesn't need to worry about that.
Sure, something might be resistant to fire, and that's why a Fire Mage or whatever you'd call it would have Radiant damage powers as well.
And yeah, the air=controller, fire=striker, earth=defender, water=leader set up is how I'd do it. I'd also say that each would have potential for subroles as the PHB2 classes do: Air could have a bit of striker (mobility) or leader (moving your allies), fire could have a bit of controller (AoEs) or defender (attack my friends and you get burned), earth could have a bit of controller (earthquakes, rifts opening in the ground) and leader (granting temp HP in the form of rock skin), and water could have some controller (icy difficult terrain, freezing in place, pushing with waves) and defender (keep people near you).
I only say this because this is totally how I'm going to make classes for my setting. Too bad I think this is the way Wizards is going to do it, or I'd publish.
And yeah, the air=controller, fire=striker, earth=defender, water=leader set up is how I'd do it.
I think that's way too symmetrically focused for 4th Ed.
What if they want to bring out a 5th or 6th elemental class down the line?
I think that's way too synergistically focused for 4th Ed.
What if they want to bring out a 5th or 6th elemental class down the line?
Then you have a second whatever role they end up being. There's 6 Arcane classes: 2 leaders (artificer, bard), 1 defender (swordmage), 1 striker (warlock), 1 controller (wizard), and one unknown (sorcerer). No one's crying about that.
A Void caster would be a leader in my eye, while a "dark" caster would be more of a striker or controller.
There's this belief that 4E is totally not trying to follow patterns, but we now have all 4 roles in Primal, Arcane, and probably Divine (depends on what the Avenger ends up being). The only source that has a missing role is Martial, and you see the desire on these boards to make a Martial Controller to fill that hole.
I, and I'm sure others, miss the default Air, Earth, Fire, and Water elementals. I would have liked to see Air and Earth Archons. I missed the Cloud and Frost Giants. I like synergy, duality, and conceptual balance, but maybe that's just me. It sucks when it's forced (such as there "having" to be so many outer planes in the great wheel, or the quasielemental planes of vacuum and salt), but some things just make sense.
1.) Then you have a second whatever role they end up being. There's 6 Arcane classes: 2 leaders (artificer, bard), 1 defender (swordmage), 1 striker (warlock), 1 controller (wizard), and one unknown (sorcerer). No one's crying about that.
2.) A Void caster would be a leader in my eye
3.) depends on what the Avenger ends up being.
4.) The only source that has a missing role is Martial, and you see the desire on these boards to make a Martial Controller to fill that hole.
1.) Yeah, but there's no forced symmetry in any of that.
2.) I don't see Void anywhere in 4th Ed so far.
3.) Striker.
4.) And I find it a silly desire, as every concept for one I have seen so far has been incredibly contrived, if you want to play a Martial Controller, play a Ranger with the Archer build (the class was meant to be a controller to begin with anyway). As they have stated they are staying away from forced symmetry (thank god), we may never see an actual Martial Controller.
Take say the Wu-Jen for example. One could say the Wu-Jen coaxes the elemental spirits to do their bidding. Whispering lies and deceptions to draw apon the Primorial essense they have stolen.
But what 'theme' could you draw based on how they aquire their elemental contracts and bonds that grant them power. And there shouldn't be anything saying a player couldn't be a servant of the Primoridals and is getting their power from them due to service.
These characters could be the new Promethus. Stealing power from the bound Primordials of old. The gods 'won' and banished the Primodials to the depths of the Elemental Chaos. Hmmmm...Divine casters won't like you very much.
Stealing power from the bound Primordials of old. The gods 'won' and banished the Primodials to the depths of the Elemental Chaos. Hmmmm...Divine casters won't like you very much.
Depends really. Perhaps taking primordial power actually weakens said primordials. Still, they'd probably keep an eye on you, lest you be CORRUPTED BY FELL POWERS.
I hope they don't link damage types to specific elements. That was one part of 3.5 that should remain dead.
I could see a class built around binding elementals to thier body. Thier powers would be extremely generalised, but with no set damage type, instead being defined by whatever elemental they've bound that day.
Hey, what about this build idea. Each 'class' has 2 elements they specialize in. They have acess to more but this is the theme to their powers.
Stormcaller (Air/Water) Controller - Summoning down lighting and tornadoes to do your bidding. Tossing foes around with whispers to the sleeping might of the sky above.
Coastwalker (Water/Earth) Leader - Just as the sea shapes the land the the land holds back the sea you guide the primordial spirits of the coastlands to head and defend your allies in battle.
Vulcanist (Earth/Fire) Defender - Strong as a moutain but boiling over with pent up power, just as the primordials are lashed to the Chaos below, the raw power of the turblent earth is lashed to your soul and desires. Blunt your foes with this power and unleash on those that dare challange you.
Flamedancer (Fire/Air) Striker - Dancing with the quicksilver and explosive spirits of the flame. Coaxing them out to alight your foes and march the rage of your assault onward in the very breezes themselves.
Anyhow, I think if they made it so all elemental powers were stolen, then that would be lame. There'd have to be more fluff options than that.
:lightbulb
Hey, what about this build idea. Each 'class' has 2 elements they specialize in. They have acess to more but this is the theme to their powers.
Stormcaller (Air/Water) Controller - Summoning down lighting and tornadoes to do your bidding. Tossing foes around with whispers to the sleeping might of the sky above.
Coastwalker (Water/Earth) Leader - Just as the sea shapes the land the the land holds back the sea you guide the primordial spirits of the coastlands to head and defend your allies in battle.
Vulcanist (Earth/Fire) Defender - Strong as a moutain but boiling over with pent up power, just as the primordials are lashed to the Chaos below, the raw power of the turblent earth is lashed to your soul and desires. Blunt your foes with this power and unleash on those that dare challange you.
Flamedancer (Fire/Air) Striker - Dancing with the quicksilver and explosive spirits of the flame. Coaxing them out to alight your foes and march the rage of your assault onward in the very breezes themselves.
Sure! And then Elemental Power will add more builds and more elements, to each of them.
Classes should not be tied to specific elements (or a single specific one either) they should make elemental classes and give them enough powers so that if a layer chooses he can make a Water elemental, or any other kind of elemental he likes.
Since we're likely to see the Shugenja (sp?) and Wu-Jen as elemental source users, this makes the most sense to me.
One possibility is that the elemental classes will be single-element casters (which, while possible with arcane classes, is somewhat difficult). For instance, an elementalist (Elemental Striker) may have four builds; focusing on earth, fire, air, or water. The Earth build will probably serve as a secondary Defender, the Water build as a secondary Leader, and the Fire and Air builds as "pure" Strikers (focusing on damage and mobility, respectively).
To counter damage resistance and the like, the elemental classes might get the ability to circumvent a certain amount of resistance from their favored type (like certain Sorcerer builds do), or powers with different damage types but contained within the general "thematic" (such as a Fire build getting Fire and Radiant powers, or an Air/Storm build getting Lightning and Thunder powers).
Look at Sha'ir, a class from the yesteryear of D&D that is the most likely candidate for an Elemental class. Its not tied to an element. I think people have already pointed out why thats a bad idea. It doesn't even focus on elemental energy. It does all the same stuff a Wizard does. The key difference was that its access to spells were more varied, but less predictable.
I'm seeing powers with varied effects. Bursts and Blasts with variable sizes. Powers that change die sizes for various reasons. Maybe variable damage types, but I'm seeing more dual damage types, as the elementals in the core MM are all at least two of the traditional elements. This is the power source I think is most likely to include something like a Fatespinner or a Chaotician.
Maybe the Defender has a very strong marking disincentive, but can't control who he marks. Or maybe he controls the marks, but the discincentive varies, so enemies take risks whenever they violate the mark, rather than facing certain measurable consequences.
The Striker could have a similar feature. You don't control who takes extra damage, but when you randomly hit the right one, its huge. Or again, the die type of the bonus damage could fluctuate. Or maybe you deal damage based on some other factor, like the enemy's stats or something, rather than yours. This striker might alternatively have some kind of damage on a miss inherent to the class as its striker feature, since bonus damage and rerolling are taken.
I don't know, I find Elemental so intriguing. Shadow, Ki, and especially Psionics are pretty well understood. We absolutely know what Psionics is like. We have a pretty good idea on Shadow (Illusion/Necromancy/etc.) Ki is looser, but at least we have Monk and pop-culture as a guide. Elemental though, well, we've got nothing. Yes, it could be stupid and up indistinguishable from Arcane/Divine. The Sorcerer could have been the signal that they've abandoned the power source entirely. But, if WotC thinks they have a concept that is interesting and different enough to be separate, I will be on the edge of my seat waiting to see what creativity they can muster for it.
The Fire guy could use flames of Fire, Radiant or Necrotic damage (and with other powers he would have gotten acid later on). He could surround himself with a fire armor (depending on the build) and one power had him charge and leaving behind to an ally that firey protection.
The Earth guy had physical, force, poison (from plants) and even some radiant damage (from lay line energy, though in retrospect that's very 'Primal' in feel). One power I liked was an at-will that made vines spring forth. On the first use it did damage and slowed (until end of next turn), but if you hit a slowed target it inflicts no damage and instead immobilize, and if you hit an immobilized target it does no damage and then restrains. I also had gravity (force damage) and magnetism based powers. And a fun one that multiplied sling bullets for no other reason that it was a fun idea :p
The Water guy could go with physical, force, cold but also boiling hot water that did fire damage. He was a leader and a power I liked was a utility where he froze the blood from the wounds of a bloodied ally into a piece of armor, giving them temp HP. I felt that was cool.
Tying it to an element doesn't mean tying it down to one damage type.
Honestly, if you want to differentiate classes in such a way, I think it would be better if each class has its own unique set of elements, rather than a unique element or combination of elements. As such, we would have a class built around the four traditional elements (Fire, Wind, Water, Earth), a class built around a set of five elements (Fire, Wind, Water, Earth, and Void/Sky), a class built around the Chinese elemental system (Fire, Water, Wood, Metal, and Earth), a class that draws power from raw primordial chaos, etc.
All I can say about classes is that I expect the Wu Jen to be an Elemental class, and that I am hoping the Ninja is Elemental as well.
Option 1 - Random Elemental Damage. All elemental powers will involve the roll of an additional die to determine damage type. Something like this.
1 - Fire
2 - Cold
3 - Acid
4 - Thunder/lightning
Option 2 - Classes are element specific.
I prefer this option, and here's some ideas.
Elemental Defender - Earth - Bulwark - Powers focus on defense bonuses, especially Fort, knock down, etc.
Elemental Controller - Water - Hydromancer - Powers focus on cold effects and water. Slows, Ice traps, freeze effects, surges of water.
Elemental Striker - Fire - Pyro - High Damage, ongoing damage. Added striker damage, Creatures hit by Pyro's fire attacks take 1d6 fire damage each subsiquent turn, save ends.
Elemental Leader - Air - Storm Lord - Wind, Thunder, and Lightning effects. Healing Wind, minor control effects, chained lightning attacks, AOE Thunder attacks. Wind pushes.
As a point of interest, I imagine that one class that could be reused is Truenamer (from the Tome of Magic in D&D 3.5). While this seems almost disparate, consider the history of the primordials. They built the physics engine of reality (they built fire, water, air, earth, ect.), and then the gods came along and made it better. So someone who knows how the world works is tapping into the same rules the primordials forged. In that way, they are tapping the elemental chaos. Ergo, elemental.
Just to stir some thoughts.
Maybe the Elemental power source will have classes not based on any particular element, but you have to choose an element when you choose a class, and your powers will have different options based on what element you choose?
Where can i find more about the battle between the primordials and the gods ?
More than what? More than is hinted in the DMG and MotP? Nowhere AFAIK...
More than what? More than is hinted in the DMG and MotP? Nowhere AFAIK...
Well there are occasional mentions in Dragon. The corpse of a primordial is the setting for one of the adventures in Open Grave, and it appears that there are some more details reveaed in PHBII. However most of these are extremely minor. *shrugs*
Hey, what about this build idea. Each 'class' has 2 elements they specialize in. They have acess to more but this is the theme to their powers.
Stormcaller (Air/Water) Controller - Summoning down lighting and tornadoes to do your bidding. Tossing foes around with whispers to the sleeping might of the sky above.
Coastwalker (Water/Earth) Leader - Just as the sea shapes the land the the land holds back the sea you guide the primordial spirits of the coastlands to head and defend your allies in battle.
Vulcanist (Earth/Fire) Defender - Strong as a moutain but boiling over with pent up power, just as the primordials are lashed to the Chaos below, the raw power of the turblent earth is lashed to your soul and desires. Blunt your foes with this power and unleash on those that dare challange you.
Flamedancer (Fire/Air) Striker - Dancing with the quicksilver and explosive spirits of the flame. Coaxing them out to alight your foes and march the rage of your assault onward in the very breezes themselves.
^ This. Definitely this.
Since we're likely to see the Shugenja (sp?) and Wu-Jen as elemental source users, this makes the most sense to me.
Yeah, my current speculation is (and nothing more):
-Geomancer (...?)
-Sha'ir (…?)
-Shugenja (leader?)
-Wu-Jen (controller?)
Lesser elemental spirits are called "Kami", and Elemental classes summon and control them as parts of their powers. Samurai, with a forceful shout and a swing of their weapon, unleash wind kami as a blade of air. Ninja are one with the earth and air, flying in graceful leaps and blending with ease into any surrounding, even in broad daylight. And Wu Jen and Shugenja call upon the kami in their own iconic ways.
And thus, all four roles are covered, without leaving Oriental Adventures.
At least assuming they keep the Gen bringing you stuff to use on people aspect.
Sha'ir is actually likely to be a controller.
At least assuming they keep the Gen bringing you stuff to use on people aspect.
What is a Sha'ir ?
What is a Sha'ir ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha'_ir_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha'_ir_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha'_ir_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
Fixed to linkdom.
But basically the Sha'ir has a gen as a peremant type pet who fetches his spells.
Obviously in 4E that would be reworked, and depending on how they do familiars it will either be (IMO)
A). Like beast master rangers with genie that have two elemental types with attacks based on that (so that a sha'ir isn't hosed due to resistance)
B). Beast master Ranger meets Shaman in that the genie has permant stats like a second character (ranger) but his powers are separate from his pet, while some give the pet auras and such.
I could see the Binder as someone who has learned what was supposed to have been forgotten, ancient lore from when the Primordials ruled over the mortal world; they speak the true words of creation, channeling the elemental power of the primordial of their choice or even summoning a ancient elemental being to unleash it's rage apon the Binder's enemys.
They could be a leader class that focuses on summoning.
The Warlock makes pacts with the vestiges
I am hoping for a Vestige pact for the Warlock, come here, Geryon!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sha'_ir_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
Fixed to linkdom.
But basically the Sha'ir has a gen as a peremant type pet who fetches his spells.
Obviously in 4E that would be reworked, and depending on how they do familiars it will either be (IMO)
A). Like beast master rangers with genie that have two elemental types with attacks based on that (so that a sha'ir isn't hosed due to resistance)
B). Beast master Ranger meets Shaman in that the genie has permant stats like a second character (ranger) but his powers are separate from his pet, while some give the pet auras and such.
But will the gen still be based on genies?
Efreets are the only ones mentioned in the MM or MotP, leaving Djinn, Dao, Janni and Marids to be presented in MM2 or maybe the Plane Below. They could use Archons, I suppose. Perhaps the gen is the origin of the power, making the sha'ir a controller that can direct the gen to deliver a blast, burst, wall or zone ranged attack.
I kind of see Wu Jen as a Warlock type striker, but instead of pacts they choose their elemental mastery at 1st level.
Shugeja could be a leader who chooses an element at 1st level similar to the genasi racial power, then flavor their powers accordingly.
Of course this would lead to several 'builds', one for each element. Or maybe not?
Bel
Wu-jen don't use some mystical arcane energy to fly, they turn their arms into wings of fire or summon a cloud chariot to walk on.
So, yeah...
Wu-Jen - Elemental Controller
Shugenja - Elemental Leader
Elemental Archer (like arcane archer, but with the elements) - Elemental Striker
Naruto Ninja - Elemental Striker?
Captain Planet (with bonus heart element) - Elemental Defender
started running out of ideas there...
I kind of see Wu Jen as a Warlock type striker, but instead of pacts they choose their elemental mastery at 1st level.
Shugeja could be a leader who chooses an element at 1st level similar to the genasi racial power, then flavor their powers accordingly.
Yeah, me too, though I see the Wu-Jen as an Elemental Controller.
I could also see the Geomancer as an Elemental class.
I can also see Elemental classes being tied to the Primordials, as Mcnancy does.
...So many ways to go.
Elemental is the REAL AZN power source.
Lesser elemental spirits are called "Kami", and Elemental classes summon and control them as parts of their powers. Samurai, with a forceful shout and a swing of their weapon, unleash wind kami as a blade of air.
Chanbara bara chanbara bara...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOwa1Mdo1Eg
any element would fit :p
...The Warlock makes pacts with the vestiges while the Binder researches the forbidden language of the primordials to bring the caged forces of creation and destuction to the mortal world under the Binder's control.
I could see the Binder as someone who has learned what was supposed to have been forgotten, ancient lore from when the Primordials ruled over the mortal world; they speak the true words of creation, channeling the elemental power of the primordial of their choice or even summoning a ancient elemental being to unleash it's rage apon the Binder's enemys....
I don't really know the binder at all, but in general I really like this fluff for an Elemental class of some type. :D
I think the creation/destruction thing will probably play a part in differentiating Elemental from other sources.The D&D crew has already referenced them as inspirational material in the DM's guide, so i dare say that they may draw on them for power. Various threads have already dealt with the Avatar benders as classes, so there is also homebrew precedent.
I would like to see something along this line, but throwing in the transmuter idea from earlier definitely, the thought of transforming one element into another makes me drool for the amount of powers and application
More and more, I am thinking that it is the Power Source that is rooted in the old Transmuter wizard archetype. It is the class that can mold and reshape the landscape, and leave a permanent mark upon the world. Where a Wizard may summon a weird magical cloud that must be sustained or else it will vanish and can be dispelled, an Elemental class may be able to just cause a giant pillar of stone to erupt from the ground that will remain there for years after the battle has ended. Even a move that does something like damage a single target, push the target out of its square, and transform that square into difficult or obstructed terrain would work well.
Actually, I am beginning to think that the alchemists from the Full Metal Alchemist anime may be a good inspiration from an Elemental class. Actually, considering the strong link between alchemy and Chinese Taoism (which also gives us the set of five Chinese elements), a magical alchemist/transmuter class with a dash of eastern flavor and a lot of elemental powers would work really well. Having two builds for Creation and Destruction (hurrah for Disintegrate) would be cool, too.
Also, I like the idea of an Elemental Defender built around controlling a puppet made out of inanimate matter, i.e. a golem-using class. The golem-master himself would possibly have the hitpoints and defenses of a controller, but would have a constant golem/puppet "pet" that can be sent out to take damage instead of the golem-master and his allies. Something like a Beastmaster Ranger or Shaman, except a Defender.
d5s, d7s, and d11s.
The book will be accomponied by WotC releasing sets of these dice. This will be done to give the power source a different feel, and also to sell dice.
Not really, but sometimes I like to say really cynical things.
Last night, I actually had something of a revelation regarding how I imagined the Elemental Power Source.
More and more, I am thinking that it is the Power Source that is rooted in the old Transmuter wizard archetype. It is the class that can mold and reshape the landscape, and leave a permanent mark upon the world. Where a Wizard may summon a weird magical cloud that must be sustained or else it will vanish and can be dispelled, an Elemental class may be able to just cause a giant pillar of stone to erupt from the ground that will remain there for years after the battle has ended. Even a move that does something like damage a single target, push the target out of its square, and transform that square into difficult or obstructed terrain would work well.
Actually, I am beginning to think that the alchemists from the Full Metal Alchemist anime may be a good inspiration from an Elemental class. Actually, considering the strong link between alchemy and Chinese Taoism (which also gives us the set of five Chinese elements), a magical alchemist/transmuter class with a dash of eastern flavor and a lot of elemental powers would work really well. Having two builds for Creation and Destruction (hurrah for Disintegrate) would be cool, too.
Also, I like the idea of an Elemental Defender built around controlling a puppet made out of inanimate matter, i.e. a golem-using class. The golem-master himself would possibly have the hitpoints and defenses of a controller, but would have a constant golem/puppet "pet" that can be sent out to take damage instead of the golem-master and his allies. Something like a Beastmaster Ranger or Shaman, except a Defender.
.....Someone agrees with me on the transmuter idea for elemental! Huraay!:D
Oh and I love your idea of a golem based defender. It would certainly be interesting and I'm pretty sure I can think of at least a few characters who could be described by such a class.
But will the gen still be based on genies?
Efreets are the only ones mentioned in the MM or MotP, leaving Djinn, Dao, Janni and Marids to be presented in MM2 or maybe the Plane Below. They could use Archons, I suppose. Perhaps the gen is the origin of the power, making the sha'ir a controller that can direct the gen to deliver a blast, burst, wall or zone ranged attack.
Well, given that Jinn/Ifrit/Genie/Djinn are really just references to a race of supernatural beings of Zor Astor lineage...there is no reason they couldn't.
I kind of see Wu Jen as a Warlock type striker, but instead of pacts they choose their elemental mastery at 1st level.
Shugeja could be a leader who chooses an element at 1st level similar to the genasi racial power, then flavor their powers accordingly.
Of course this would lead to several 'builds', one for each element. Or maybe not?
Bel
I think holding it to one element is dangerous for immunities of future monsters. two elements would be more safe, and a fusion of all elements would be best (At least as far as damage type goes).
I think holding it to one element is dangerous for immunities of future monsters. two elements would be more safe, and a fusion of all elements would be best (At least as far as damage type goes).
Absolutely agree here, the alchemist/transmuter idea has true merit, with mastery and changing of all elements.
I see nothing wrong with leaning a little towards an element but only having powers of one kind would unnecessarily hinder
Last night, I actually had something of a revelation regarding how I imagined the Elemental Power Source.
More and more, I am thinking that it is the Power Source that is rooted in the old Transmuter wizard archetype. It is the class that can mold and reshape the landscape, and leave a permanent mark upon the world.
Maybe geomancer type action?
I can see this easily translating to 4e. An Enhancer (for lack of a better name) would choose two elements, or the same element twice, to imbue each of their weapons with, perhaps as a build, or maybe per day or per encounter, who knows. They could then open up strong secondary effects for certain spells, or a chance-on-hit system that would randomly put a status effect on an enemy, or any number of things.
Assuming build-based elements... there would be a Striker/Controller that took Fire/Frost or Wind/Frost, and a Striker/Leader that could take Fire/Earth or Wind/Earth. Or they could go ultimate striker with Wind/Fire, or full support with Frost/Earth. I see many possible combos, leading to a very fun, flexible class.
I think I may build this...
With the Transmuter as Controller... And the Elemental Puppeteer ( :p ) as Defender...we just need a leader or something.
Just really the beginnings of an idea, lots of people have interesting ideas on this thread.
Also, Demons are native to the elemental chaos... maybe we can get demonologists? (Yah I know we got Infernal pact locks already... whatever.)
The one thing that gets linked with the elemental the most in 4e that I see is Chaos. The difference I think we will see between the Arcane and Elemental sources is that Arcane is imposing order on elements to a large degree while Elemental will be more about unleashing elements wholesale. Also perhaps elemental types will have access to some other characteristics, like tremorsense, terrain walk, phasing, burrow, whatever.
I'd actually place it the other way around, or perhaps I should say that the Elemental classes would see it the other way around.:P
I see the elemtnal classes seeing their magic as continuing the natural cycle of the Elemental Chaos. They aren't bringing about chaos, they are simply exercising the true nature of the world, "nothing lasts forever". Chaos is simply an insult made by the simple minded divine beings who can't comprehend anything beyond the eternal nature of their portfolios. There is an order to the elements, that order is just found in constant motion and is such that most people can't comprehend it. I see elemental users as seeing arcane element spells as being abnormalalities at best abombinations at worst as arcane element spells are forcing reality to go against the flow of the elements.
Also, Demons are native to the elemental chaos... maybe we can get demonologists? (Yah I know we got Infernal pact locks already... whatever.)
Infernal deals with Devils, not Demons, so Demonologists are still a go in my book. ;)
Infernal deals with Devils, not Demons, so Demonologists are still a go in my book. ;)
Same here. I don't get the confusion between the two that seems prevalent. The Abyss and the Nine Hells are far from each other.
Infernal deals with Devils, not Demons, so Demonologists are still a go in my book.
maybe The Binder will be the new demonologist.
- "Alchemy" and transmutation, I feel, would not work for Elemental power. Mainly, we already have alchemists (anybody who takes the Alchemist feat), and any power-source can use it.
- The 3.5 Binder is in almsost every way a 4e Warlock. With the exception of binding vestiges, beings lost in an existence between existences, Warlocks are the new Binders. A new class that took the Warlock's "I practice forbidden magic pacts" uniqueness away would be unjust.
- A Demonologist is a fair class name. However, it would not nessessarily have to be Elemental-- Arcane and Divine would easily take this class.
- Primordial is a language that can be learned at 1st level-- it scarcely contains words of power in the sense that Supernal does.
- Wizards summon Elementals.
- As it has been said, Arcane does a LOT of stuff, and so Elemental is a little tough to envision as unique...
... Unless the classes were based on manipulation of a single element. Each element (except fire) can deal various types of damage, and thus are multifaceted. The only issue at hand would be the fact that each element can be used for each of the roles pretty well... However, if you give each elemental class within each role availability of each element, what would differentiate them from Arcane?
It would almost be easier to not have an Elemental power source.
In my recent working-ons with my Golden Sun for 4e, I have been giving the Elemental Power source a good bit of thought. After reading this thread, I have a few opinions I would like to share:
- "Alchemy" and transmutation, I feel, would not work for Elemental power. Mainly, we already have alchemists (anybody who takes the Alchemist feat), and any power-source can use it.
So are you saying that spending hours creating one shot items is the same as putting your hands on the ground and turning the area around you into an ice ring?I should also point out that we had the ability to create magic items, which can be done by people of any power source, since 4th edition came out and we are still getting a class dedicated to that same principle, the artificer. I see no reason why we can't have the same thing for alchemy/transmuting.
... Unless the classes were based on manipulation of a single element. Each element (except fire) can deal various types of damage, and thus are multifaceted. The only issue at hand would be the fact that each element can be used for each of the roles pretty well... However, if you give each elemental class within each role availability of each element, what would differentiate them from Arcane?
I was thinking about that myself, and I think it could be done.
Multiple classes that each focus on one element; just make all the powers do 'blank' damage, the classes pick an element at creation that transforms all the powers into that element. Each element would have secondary damage types that go into the powers that use the secondary types, some encounter powers would get bonuses or extra effects from one element and dailies would always get a bonus or extra effect that is different depending on what element you picked.
You could pick which kind of elementalist you are, then pick what element your entire class is based around.
I have a feeling if we at least see the Shugenja it will look something like this.
Seeing as demons are a sub-type of elementals, I don't think we really need demonologists as a seperate class. Really, what's the difference between a character that summons elementals and one that summons demons? Other than the evil.
Make it a fluff choice. More is unnecessary.
In my recent working-ons with my Golden Sun for 4e, I have been giving the Elemental Power source a good bit of thought. After reading this thread, I have a few opinions I would like to share:
- "Alchemy" and transmutation, I feel, would not work for Elemental power. Mainly, we already have alchemists (anybody who takes the Alchemist feat), and any power-source can use it.
- The 3.5 Binder is in almsost every way a 4e Warlock. With the exception of binding vestiges, beings lost in an existence between existences, Warlocks are the new Binders. A new class that took the Warlock's "I practice forbidden magic pacts" uniqueness away would be unjust.
- A Demonologist is a fair class name. However, it would not nessessarily have to be Elemental-- Arcane and Divine would easily take this class.
- Primordial is a language that can be learned at 1st level-- it scarcely contains words of power in the sense that Supernal does.
- Wizards summon Elementals.
- As it has been said, Arcane does a LOT of stuff, and so Elemental is a little tough to envision as unique...
... Unless the classes were based on manipulation of a single element. Each element (except fire) can deal various types of damage, and thus are multifaceted. The only issue at hand would be the fact that each element can be used for each of the roles pretty well... However, if you give each elemental class within each role availability of each element, what would differentiate them from Arcane?
It would almost be easier to not have an Elemental power source.
See? This is all Arcane's fault for being this ill defined, catch-all, I'm-more-versatile-than-you, power source!
If Arcane was more limited we could have a far more unique Elemental power source quite easily. That Warlock is a big headache in that he could essentially have different power sources for each pact but the culprit is the Wizard and his elemental summoning and the Sorcerer with his 'chaos magic' stepping over the Elemental power source.
Sorcerers should have been made Elemental not Arcane.
How is the binder in any way like the warlock? On one hand we have "I have entered a pact so that strange creatures teach me spells men were not meant to know", on the other "I use a ritual to bind elemental creatures to my body, allowing me to access thier powers".
I agree, A Binder based on Primordials and/or Demons could be different enough from a Warlock based on Devils or Vestiges, both in flavor and mechanics.
Also, Wizards DO summon (lesser) demons, (and, unless I am mistaken, constructs) in case anybody was wondering about that.
I should also point out that we had the ability to create magic items, which can be done by people of any power source, since 4th edition came out and we are still getting a class dedicated to that same principle, the artificer. I see no reason why we can't have the same thing for alchemy/transmuting.
I personally would LOVE to see a Transmuter a la Full Metal Alchemist, but I honestly feel that that sort of thing would make an ideal build for the Artificer... But that might just be me.
I personally would LOVE to see a Transmuter a la Full Metal Alchemist, but I honestly feel that that sort of thing would make an ideal build for the Artificer... But that might just be me.
Maybe it is just me but.......I just don't see any kind of connection between the artificer and a Full Metal Alchemist style transmuter.:P
The artificer is someone who makes small gadgets for use in comabt. The transmuter is someone who alters the terrain of the battlefield and items near or on enemies. I mean if you stretch it a little, maybe I can see a connection in that both of them know a lot about magic......but by that idea, artificers should just be an alternate build for the wizard.:P
See? This is all Arcane's fault for being this ill defined, catch-all, I'm-more-versatile-than-you, power source!
Yeah, but there's things you can do with the "look and feel" of classes and powers to differentiate them from Arcane.
Arcane is a mystical energy that permeates the cosmos (presumably undetectable to those not trained in its use - hey, you know, this is kind of like the Force...), so in principle it can be used to pull anything (energy, matter, creatures...) from anywhere.
But essentially, Arcane users are stealing whatever it is they conjure up, which is why they have to spend a lot of time and concentration on controlling it. So a way to make Elemental or Shadow users different is to somehow highlight that they have an innate connection to their respective planes, that energy from there flows naturally to their fingertips and beings from there are more inclined to deal on friendly terms with them than with a Wizard. For example.
You pick a damage keyword (let's say Fire) and everytime you use a power with that keyword you get an after effect! It would be a way to promote specialisation of one element while leaving spaces for versatility. Also the effects wouldn't just be 'inflict X dmg of the same type to all adjacent enemy' it would have different benefitial effects that would make it worthwhile to use even if the surrounding enemies have resistance to the damage type you'd pull.
So the wizard covers its foes in liquid fire? The Elementalist turns its foes skin into fire.
They have it on specific powers, not as a class feature.
Oh... well it would make for a fun class feature. For added strategic fun make it so you can change it between encounter!