High-Level D&D
Join members of Wizard's R&D team to discuss the intricacies of high-level D&D play, from paragon tier to epic tier, and maybe even a peek into what might be beyond 30th level for your campaign. This open discussion and Q&A covers all aspects of high-level play, including paragon paths, epic destinies, monsters, campaign direction, and more.
You could have to deal with the True Fates, The Being Who Thought Up The Universe, etc.
You could also explore other dimensions, parallel dimensions, delve right into the center of the Far Realm.
Essentially if they go beyond level 30. I would like to see it peeling back the curtain and taking a gander of what lies beyond the cosmology.
Upping the level cap? What a total WoW ripoff!:P
Oh boy. 
I would actually hope it was a return to previous editions where there was no level cap.
Well I never liked the idea of gods being top fry in the universe. Hell I usually make them much lower then they are portrayed in D&D. So I could see other entities being higher up and more mysterious.
You could have to deal with the True Fates, The Being Who Thought Up The Universe, etc.
You could also explore other dimensions, parallel dimensions, delve right into the center of the Far Realm.
Essentially if they go beyond level 30. I would like to see it peeling back the curtain and taking a gander of what lies beyond the cosmology.
Good thoughts. I agree with you about them not being the be all, end all; actually, don't we have information stating that the primordials were there first (or were they just active first)? Either way, there are still other beings that have not been statted out, and it does make sense that if the PCs progress they would eventually surpass the power of all knowable beings.
That being said, I just feel that if they do open up the leveling structure, it would be a pity that the gods are so close to epic. They could definitely be higher level, but still reachable in time.
Also, I think the gods would try to dispatch someone who had a real chance of disrupting reality before they got close to attaining such power, but that's just me.
I would guess that it's more along the lines of discussing how to continue a campaign with new characters after the old ones' epic destinies are achieved, as well as how to incorporate those old characters into the campaign world.
It is definitely possible, and the easiest way to discuss this topic, as it does not actually alter the framework already in place.
In any case, the thing that I would rather see is players stay at level 30, but with accumulation of wealth, the players could invest in more and more equipment than they would otherwise - and maybe provide a source of strength. I think that the difficulty of beyond epic tier is taking down these lv35 solo threats at lv30. Hopefully when they say "beyond epic tier" they mean higher than lv30 threats, rather than higher than lv30 players.
After all the gods aren't normally killable despite their levels so they have some sort of power structure that's outside of the normal class/monster level structure.
What I would like to see though is a way to do the Immortals boxed set in 4e, where either a character who went the demigod ED or a new character works their way up in divinity power rather than classic character levels. They'd not deal with the same enemies and rules of the normal play but it could liven up a campaign that just didn't want to end with the party finishing their EDs and starting over new characters at level 1 again.
It does say 'for your campaign beyond 30th level' not characters. I suspect it'll mostly be at ways to continue a campaign when you have characters who've finally completed their epic destinies. We may see alternate advancements so while they stay at 30th level they can grow in other ways that draws them more into the divine/primordial/spirit levels.
Good point. I also remember reading about potential incorporation of kingdom-building/running (a la Birthright or Companion rules), so maybe if our PCs stay in the world they can work on that, although I would think that would start in earnest in the late paragon/early epic tiers.
What I would like to see though is a way to do the Immortals boxed set in 4e, where either a character who went the demigod ED or a new character works their way up in divinity power rather than classic character levels. They'd not deal with the same enemies and rules of the normal play but it could liven up a campaign that just didn't want to end with the party finishing their EDs and starting over new characters at level 1 again.
Seconded.
Roleplaying is storytelling, and good stories end somewhere.
Maybe, but where that story ends should be entirely up to each individual group, not enforced by some arbitrary game mechanic.
However, I really hope they go for a more structured approach than the open-ended madness of 3E's epic levels.
They'll probably add another (or two ;)) new tiers to the game (perhaps something like "Legendary" from 31-40 and "Transcendental" from 41-50).
I'm the kind of player that latches onto characters and play them forever. I had a couple of 3.x characters hit the mid 40s - and my other game system (Hero), I've got one character that I've been playing for something like 18 years, and a number of others that are at 7 to 10 year mark.
So I'm interested in the idea of character beyond the cap just because I love playing specific characters for a long time.
My prediction for how it will happen.
Either
Some sort of "Final Tier" that is basically another epic destiny, but even less specific. No new powers gained from classes. Maybe you can replace paragon path ones with this classes.
OR
A simple progression for all classes. IE "Keep your 1/2 mod increasing as normal. Every __ levels gain a feat, and ___ levels gain ability points." Possibly containing Epic Tier + only feats.
Prediction is that it will be in PHB 3.
Sarcasm aside, what I would like to see, is a supplement detailing what you can do as a 30th level character to alter the fate of the world. (Starting religions, building empires, revolutionizing industry, creating your own plane, hell even conquering the world). The rules could be put down in some of the same style as the old birthright stuff, but expanded in scope.
That's definitely something I'd pay for.
The framework of this game will collapse if you stretch it much beyond 30. Mechanically, 4E isn't designed for god-on-god combat to be mundane; the math will fail, and the suspension of disbelief for most folks will fail. It's not necessarily wrong as a concept, but it will need a totally different game to support it; when every power that characters can use could destroy a city, most of the advice that applies to running a D&D game no longer applies.
Personally, I 100% expect that this seminar about High Level D&D "beyond 30th level" will talk about Epic Destiny quests, and changing the setting in response to player actions. After all, it's just a seminar; there probably won't be anything mindblowing introduced in the space of a couple hours.
I personally hope its a combination of actual levels and ideas/mechanics for doing things like establishing a religion, creating a plane, etc.
And perhaps now this would give WotC a reason to stat out the greater gods like Bane...;)
Well I never liked the idea of gods being top fry in the universe. Hell I usually make them much lower then they are portrayed in D&D. So I could see other entities being higher up and more mysterious.
You could have to deal with the True Fates, The Being Who Thought Up The Universe, etc.
You could also explore other dimensions, parallel dimensions, delve right into the center of the Far Realm.
Essentially if they go beyond level 30. I would like to see it peeling back the curtain and taking a gander of what lies beyond the cosmology.
At that point I don't know if it'd even be D&D anymore. I'm not saying it wouldn't be interesting or compelling, because it'd epic (the scale itself insures that), but it would probably have little to do with neither a Dungeon nor Dragon. :p
Id still like to see something like that for 4e regardless. Most other editions had something synonymous.
Adventure beyond 30th level? Sure. But leveling beyond 30th level? Noooo!
The framework of this game will collapse if you stretch it much beyond 30. Mechanically, 4E isn't designed for god-on-god combat to be mundane; the math will fail, and the suspension of disbelief for most folks will fail. It's not necessarily wrong as a concept, but it will need a totally different game to support it; when every power that characters can use could destroy a city, most of the advice that applies to running a D&D game no longer applies.
Personally, I 100% expect that this seminar about High Level D&D "beyond 30th level" will talk about Epic Destiny quests, and changing the setting in response to player actions. After all, it's just a seminar; there probably won't be anything mindblowing introduced in the space of a couple hours.
Very much this!
Rules for nation building, religion starting and plane creating!
Arcane academies, Bard colleges, Monasteries, and Druid groves.
Bel
The framework of this game will collapse if you stretch it much beyond 30. Mechanically, 4E isn't designed for god-on-god combat to be mundane; the math will fail, and the suspension of disbelief for most folks will fail. It's not necessarily wrong as a concept, but it will need a totally different game to support it; when every power that characters can use could destroy a city, most of the advice that applies to running a D&D game no longer applies.
It might break your suspension of disbelief, but it doesn't break mine. So I buy the book, you don't, and we all live happily ever after.
As for the math, it'll scales just fine. Everything is pretty straight forward and linear. If anything the math is the easy part. The hard part is creating a post epic structure by which powers can continue to improve.
As for destroying cities, that's already reasonably within the capabilities of current epic PCs.
Very much this!
Rules for nation building, religion starting and plane creating!
Arcane academies, Bard colleges, Monasteries, and Druid groves.
Bel
Definitely. Secondary stuff, you know?
It might break your suspension of disbelief, but it doesn't break mine. So I buy the book, you don't, and we all live happily ever after.
As for the math, it'll scales just fine. Everything is pretty straight forward and linear. If anything the math is the easy part. The hard part is creating a post epic structure by which powers can continue to improve.
As for destroying cities, that's already reasonably within the capabilities of current epic PCs.
Frankly, I think you're being pretty naive about what would be involved. However, I've had this argument with you before, and I'm not interested in having it again. Let me just say this:
If it's all as straightforward as you suggest, why don't you try it out? I'm quite certain that you (or if not you, then your players) will very quickly get tired of slaying "god-lins"*, and that 4E is very inefficient for this type of ultra-powered game.
*"Godlin", like "god" and "goblin"; get it? :P
If it's all as straightforward as you suggest, why don't you try it out? I'm quite certain that you (or if not you, then your players) will very quickly get tired of slaying "god-lins"*, and that 4E is very inefficient for this type of ultra-powered game.
I never said it was ALL straightforward. In fact, I specifically mentioned that implementing a system to continuously improve a character's powers would be difficult. I just pointed out that the MATH wouldn't be a problem. The numbers all get bigger but they do so fairly consistently, and any kinks that crop up could be easily ironed out with a few feats (of which lv.30+ heroes will have plenty).
As for slaying god-lins (BTW, thanks for spoiling your own joke by forcibly explaining it
), that's a matter of play style. If that's the kind of game a group wants wants to play, I say let them. Who are any of us to arbitrarily declare that what they enjoy is "wrong fun"?When the designers say high level, they mean Paragon and beyond. People have made the complaint that once you get into paragon the encounters get boring, or in some cases too long. The designers didn't say anything about going beyond 30th level, though this is definitely something that is high level - and personally I don't want to see any players in my game go beyond 30th level, I don't believe this to be very fun myself as either a player or as a DM.
I'm thinking this as well. For instance, Dungeon Master's Option: High Level Campaigns (for 2nd edition) notes: "For our purposes, any character of 10th level or more is high-level." That's how the designers were thinking back then.
Ampersand would seem to indicate a similar way of thinking, noting as it does paragon play: "Join members of Wizard's R&D team to discuss the intricacies of high-level D&D play, from paragon tier to epic tier . . ."
The passing comment on a peek "into what might be beyond 30th level for your campaign" does have me curious but I'd say its gonna be story ideas for expansion rather than actual game rules. As doc mentioned, this is a seminar (a few hours at most); prolly won't be anything too mind-blowing ;).
Ideas for fluffing out epic destinies like starting a religion, founding a dynasty, finding and training a successor (that sorta stuff) would be cool.
I'm thinking this as well. For instance, Dungeon Master's Option: High Level Campaigns (for 2nd edition) notes: "For our purposes, any character of 10th level or more is high-level." That's how the designers were thinking back then.
Ampersand would seem to indicate a similar way of thinking, noting as it does paragon play: "Join members of Wizard's R&D team to discuss the intricacies of high-level D&D play, from paragon tier to epic tier . . ."
The passing comment on a peek "into what might be beyond 30th level for your campaign" does have me curious but I'd say its gonna be story ideas for expansion rather than actual game rules. As doc mentioned, this is a seminar (a few hours at most); prolly won't be anything too mind-blowing ;).
Ideas for fluffing out epic destinies like starting a religion, founding a dynasty, finding and training a successor (that sorta stuff) would be cool.
The talk about post-epic is from this:
High-Level D&D
Join members of Wizard's R&D team to discuss the intricacies of high-level D&D play, from paragon tier to epic tier, and maybe even a peek into what might be beyond 30th level for your campaign. This open discussion and Q&A covers all aspects of high-level play, including paragon paths, epic destinies, monsters, campaign direction, and more. Sat 4 PM
Emphasis shown on the part that's brought up the topic of post-30 content.
As for slaying god-lins (BTW, thanks for spoiling your own joke by forcibly explaining it
It happens. I had to explain it for it to be clear that I wasn't just misspelling "godlings", which might also make sense in that context.
Let's agree to disagree, Tharag. Also, if you start playing your 30th+ level games, please use the word "godlins", as a favour to me.
I really hope that they don't extend the level cap past 30. When you start making the level range open-ended, the entire framework of what kind of power various levels represent completely breaks down. You end up with people claiming that "the gods are level 100+" and other sorts of nonsense that we saw in 3E. I like the fact that level 30 is as high as it gets. It is one of the things about 4E that really appeals to me. Expanding the level cap will do more harm than good to the game if you ask me.
Agreed. Leave the cap at 30. I'm hoping this will be more of a discussion on interesting encounters once the characters reach level 30 or epic ways to wrap up a campaign and have them complete their epic destiny.
It happens. I had to explain it for it to be clear that I wasn't just misspelling "godlings", which might also make sense in that context.
the quotation marks and the dash were enough to make it clear, to me at least that it was no mere spelling error.
Let's agree to disagree, Tharag. Also, if you start playing your 30th+ level games, please use the word "godlins", as a favour to me.
I could probably do that, though it's unlikely to ever happen. Back in 3.5 I only had one maybe two friends that were interested in lv.20+ play, and at least three of the other group members had entirely negative opinions about epic level play. I haven't checked recently, but I doubt much has changed. Now that "epic" is core everyone seems interested in lv.21-30, but I'd wager that my friends who hated epic in 3.5 would hate lv.30+ play in 4e just as much.
makes me think about darksun for a second with players changing into other things... elementals, dragons, avingons(I cannot spell), and what not...
with the Exarchs and such being more Prevalent in the religeous structure of 4e... 30+ might actually be alot of fun... especially since you can increase the level of the monsters to make it more of a challenge... a group of lvl 33's against a lvl 38 Demon Prince or a horde of undead(that come in waves untill all their powers are gone except the at-wills)...
30+ to me sounds like its time to add an actual Prestige class or 20 of them...
makes me think about darksun for a second with players changing into other things... elementals, dragons, avingons(I cannot spell), and what not...
with the Exarchs and such being more Prevalent in the religeous structure of 4e... 30+ might actually be alot of fun... especially since you can increase the level of the monsters to make it more of a challenge... a group of lvl 33's against a lvl 38 Demon Prince or a horde of undead(that come in waves untill all their powers are gone except the at-wills)...
This would make for an interesting exploration of levels past 30 I think: Change the fundamental nature of the PCs. Never played much in Dark Sun but I did get my hands on the Dragon Kings hardcover. It was one of the first 2nd edition supplements to explore levels up to 30 (Forgotten Realms Adventures actually did it first).
Beyond 20th level, characters could choose to advance normally or to undergo a metamorphosis into an 'advanced being'. Wizards could become Dragons or (more rarely) angelic Avangions; clerics could transform into Elementals. As the foreward notes: ". . . in the Dark Sun world, no one gains fantastic levels anonymously. No character can escape the consequences of superior experience . . . high-level characters become victims of their own success."
That would be a fun change of pace I think; certainly not the same ol', same ol' ;).
30+ to me sounds like its time to add an actual Prestige class or 20 of them...
makes me think about darksun for a second with players changing into other things... elementals, dragons, avingons(I cannot spell), and what not...
with the Exarchs and such being more Prevalent in the religeous structure of 4e... 30+ might actually be alot of fun... especially since you can increase the level of the monsters to make it more of a challenge... a group of lvl 33's against a lvl 38 Demon Prince or a horde of undead(that come in waves untill all their powers are gone except the at-wills)...
Except that most of the strongest powers in the universe are in the early to mid 30s. Demogorgon is the strongest Demon Prince currently released, at 34. He's influenced by Dagon, the original Demon Prince, who's actually weaker at 32. The only Demon Princes actually mentioned thus far in the 4e Mythos are Demogorgon, Orcus, Dagon, Graz'zt, Baphomet, and Yeenoghu. Yes, they could bring back old demon lords that were relatively minor compared to these big six, but the only post-epic Abyssal threats I can seriously expect yet to come in the future are Lolth and Tharizdun, and both of those are deities. They'd need to start pulling stuff out of their ***** in order to decide there's a Demon Prince stronger than Tiamat, Mual-tar, or Vecna (the currently strongest released threats, at 35).
My point is, Tiamat and Vecna, while weaker deities, and Mual-tar, while seriously weakened from his primordial strength, are still representative of a class of enemies that is the top of the tier. You can't fill these with enough monsters to advance levels through the tier unless you said that each deity (or primordial, demon prince, archfey, etc) you kill advances you a level. Otherwise you'd need to start making godlins such as Super Angel 5.7s and Majin Efreet that are normal enemies, yet somehow stronger than the strongest of Demon Princes, Archdukes of Hell, and even some deities.
The only way I'm seeing you pull this off is if Post-Epic tier takes place primarily in the Far Realm, where you can create the most bizarre creatures that are totally more powerful than anything at home and aren't a threat to the home-universe because the Far Realm has been kept at bay (like the barrier the Spirit World puts to keep the A and S-class Demons from Makai from entering the human world in YuYuHakushou) - but even that's stretching it, since it basically is a DBZ ploy: let's travel to another world where everything is so much stronger than our world so we can keep leveling up!
By the time you're at lv30, you're one of the strongest beings in the universe. You don't need to level up anymore, because the only threats there are in the world are singular beings that are kept in check by the various other great powers. Yes, you may fight one or even a handful of them, considering that some dark alliance may figure out a ploy to steal the Raven Queen's
I really hope that they don't extend the level cap past 30. When you start making the level range open-ended, the entire framework of what kind of power various levels represent completely breaks down. You end up with people claiming that "the gods are level 100+" and other sorts of nonsense that we saw in 3E. I like the fact that level 30 is as high as it gets. It is one of the things about 4E that really appeals to me. Expanding the level cap will do more harm than good to the game if you ask me.
Agreed.
However, some tips on continuing a campaign at lvl 30 would be interesting. I could see a group spending an entire season roaming the multiverse, overcoming bad-arse skill challenges (make Pandemonium livable) or kill off all the deities, primordials, and demon lords. Tips on beating things 10 levels above you, via quests etc., would be useful.
Me personally, I always ignore the level caps and make challenges for players by keeping the Really bad things at least 10 levels ahead of them...
Coming from the Palladium and Old White Wolf systems, I also try not to give XP for only combat... and if I do its not a lot... I feel that at epic, and what would you call 30+ Deific?, levels of play it should be more about actions and politics... I mean how many other things are even at your level?
If you start killing all the orcs... would not Gruumsh Intervene?
If you had killed the son of Bane(not like in Baldurs Gate), would not Bane himself make an appearance...
I am a ruthless DM... I try to kill every PC once they get to level 18 anyway... if they can survive to Epic Play... then it's like they got too many darkside points and are now my NPC Tool!!!
I really hope that they don't extend the level cap past 30. When you start making the level range open-ended, the entire framework of what kind of power various levels represent completely breaks down. You end up with people claiming that "the gods are level 100+" and other sorts of nonsense that we saw in 3E. I like the fact that level 30 is as high as it gets. It is one of the things about 4E that really appeals to me. Expanding the level cap will do more harm than good to the game if you ask me.
I'm voting for you.
I don't want to see levels beyond 30th, but I do think that adventuring at and around level 30 still holds a ton of untapped potential, and that the desire for it is the source of a lot of the demand for "post-epic" material that we're seeing here. People wanna see what exactly an Epic Destiny quest should look like. People wanna have a chance to change the world, even the cosmos, with their actions. People want a chance to use their level 30 ED feature for more than the last few encounters of their career! I think all of this can be achieved without ever stretching beyond 30th level.
As it stands now, level 30 isn't the cap because we have Deities and Demon Princes statted as level 34ish. I remember a designer saying something about a particular deity being level 38, and that was why that deity did not get statted out.
Remember, WotC is a business. If there is a market for "Divine level" play, then they will make it. It could end up being rather simple too, have Divine templates (based on the divine domains from Divine Power possibly) and then simply have all powers get a 1 or 2W upgrade at level 31. Then you just need awesome feats and new magic items.
The best a party of adventurers is going to be able to do is take out minor deities and major demon princes, and even that's a stretch.
To break the level seal at 30, it would stink like DBZ- what are you going to fight, black holes and crap?
Well, on the other hand, I guess you can fight stuff that's supposedly more powerful than the Gods in the D&D mythos, like Draedens and Pandorym.
But it would be silly and cheap, as silly as saying, "The Gods have Gods themselves!"
I always thought the notion of Overgods (i.e. AO in the Forgotten Realms) was utterly silly and cheapened the impact of Gods on the setting.
To break the level seal at 30, it would stink like DBZ- what are you going to fight, black holes and crap?
Sounds like fun.
Honestly I've never figured out why people have a problem with this kind of stuff. So maybe it's not that kind of game you enjoy, simple solution, don't plat lv.30+ and don't buy the books that support it.
I'd rather not see such options placed in a main book like PHB, but a yearly Immortal's Handbook is something I would enjoy seeing. That way those who want rules and support for such games have them, and those that don't can easily avoid it.
Some ideas:
- There aren't any new powers for each class, but existing powers have their damage die increase at certain levels (like LV31, 35, and 40).
- New "immortal" abilities are grouped by power source rather than class (Martial, Divine, Arcane, and so forth). These don't help specifically with a class's role, but are more like paragon path or epic destiny abilities that give enhanced options.
- Emphasis on the world-changing nature of such high-level campaigns. Attacks may lay waste to cities and nations, and the party will be up against gods, elder primordials, and apocalyptic entities with the power to destroy entire worlds and planes of existence.
Of course, there's the big question of whether this is such a good idea in the first place.
The first five levels are already too thin as it is.
Sounds like fun.
Honestly I've never figured out why people have a problem with this kind of stuff. So maybe it's not that kind of game you enjoy, simple solution, don't plat lv.30+ and don't buy the books that support it.
Sure, it could be a fun playstyle if you enjoy that sort of thing. I'm just not sure that D&D is tuned to cater to every style of play- it just doesn't seem really designed for "You are omnipotent, and your foes are more omnipotent". That's more Exalted's or Hero/Demigod/God's schtick.
I suggest quashing it not because having a separate book is wrongfun, but rather because it takes resources away from projects that a wider variety of people would want to play. I'd rather have more options for mainstream campaigns being published than rules for DBZ-D&D.
To some extent, D&D from level 1-10 doesn't play a whole lot different than from 21-30. I already question the distinction. The heroes have a handful more powers (only a handful) that do the same types of damage to the monsters that fall down. It's nothing like the night-and-day differences in play between 1-10 and epic levels in 3.5. I'm not sure that under the 4e model, levels 31-40 would scratch your Power Itch.
No, i think not. From the teaser statement i saw, the discussion will be about how to continue your campaign after the players achieve level 30. There are all kinds of possibilities for continuing at that level and i'm sure that's what the discussion will be about.
Should WotC pick up the gauntlet and give us super-epic characters?
No, i think not. The number of people who want this kind of thing is just not significant enough to justify diverting their creative resources, as some have said.
Should someone do this?
Without a question, yes! This is an exciting direction that players and DMs could chose to take as they reach the pinacle of their power. There is a lot of stigma being attached to super-epic gameplay, likening it to Dragonball Z and saying it will devalue lower-level options.
Hey, DBZ appeals to some people. Even if it doesn't, the exact flavour that anyone's adventures take on is limited only by their imagination. I'll descend into describing some possiblities... this will resemble ranting, so skip ahead if you like:
Show
Maybe hitting this level "pulls away the veil" that was in place throughout the rest of the character's careers. Maybe reality was never as it seemed, and now their minds are awakened to the underlying truths of reality (the Demispell for an Archmage or the Secrets of Divinity for the Demigod).
"But the gods are the only viable targets for such powerful characters!" What's wrong with that? Perhaps the Secrets of Divinity are so secret, the gods will want you to be onboard with their plan to tryanically oppress true knowledge (even Ioun, with good intentions intact). If you don't subscribe to their ideology by becoming an exarch or swearing to respect the Code of Deities, they become your enemies. Godslaying is no longer a passtime activity for super-epic characters, it's simple self-defense! The gods want you dead for your arrogance. How could you dare to defy them? Ah, but you bring in allies from the Void! You release Tharizdun or some more terrible foe (who happens to be only mildly more terrible than you, at this point) and guess what, he's a pretty neat guy. The gods imprisoned/banished these creatures for the same reason they're trying to assassinate you.
This is one specific thought that you might consider. There are infinte possibilities with all kinds of intrigue and excitemet. Hells, you don't even need to go with combat. Maybe your daily adventures consist of negotiating for the souls of your most valued followers, which have been misappropriated by a jealous, rival deity. Perhaps you're carving out an astral domain or your wizardly tower in the plains. Again, if it's not for you, it's not for you... but your imagination is the only limitation on the flavour that your adventures would take on. DBZ is only one flavour.
Maybe hitting this level "pulls away the veil" that was in place throughout the rest of the character's careers. Maybe reality was never as it seemed, and now their minds are awakened to the underlying truths of reality (the Demispell for an Archmage or the Secrets of Divinity for the Demigod).
"But the gods are the only viable targets for such powerful characters!" What's wrong with that? Perhaps the Secrets of Divinity are so secret, the gods will want you to be onboard with their plan to tryanically oppress true knowledge (even Ioun, with good intentions intact). If you don't subscribe to their ideology by becoming an exarch or swearing to respect the Code of Deities, they become your enemies. Godslaying is no longer a passtime activity for super-epic characters, it's simple self-defense! The gods want you dead for your arrogance. How could you dare to defy them? Ah, but you bring in allies from the Void! You release Tharizdun or some more terrible foe (who happens to be only mildly more terrible than you, at this point) and guess what, he's a pretty neat guy. The gods imprisoned/banished these creatures for the same reason they're trying to assassinate you.
This is one specific thought that you might consider. There are infinte possibilities with all kinds of intrigue and excitemet. Hells, you don't even need to go with combat. Maybe your daily adventures consist of negotiating for the souls of your most valued followers, which have been misappropriated by a jealous, rival deity. Perhaps you're carving out an astral domain or your wizardly tower in the plains. Again, if it's not for you, it's not for you... but your imagination is the only limitation on the flavour that your adventures would take on. DBZ is only one flavour.
Will WotC develop a way to pick up extra powers, feats, higher level Rituals, etc. after Epic tier? Possibly.
They will have to bail them out at 2 o'clock in the morning on a school night, after they bust up another bar.
The constant begging of gold pices from you, they insist that things cost way more then when you adventured.
When they borrow your armor or wand, it is always returned nicked and dented, which they reply it was like that when they borrowed it.
I think lvl 30+ will have to endure the scariest encounters of all ... teenage adventurers.
They will have to bail them out at 2 o'clock in the morning on a school night, after they bust up another bar.
The constant begging of gold pices from you, they insist that things cost way more then when you adventured.
When they borrow your armor or wand, it is always returned nicked and dented, which they reply it was like that when they borrowed it.
Raise a castle, raise a family, but what then? When your children have children of their own, and your only job is to spoil them with new, unnecessarily shiny things, many of us follow in the footsteps of Bilbo Baggins, feeling called to the next great adventure. Forget epic destinies and their posh immortality! Perhaps Peter Pan postulated with perfect produndity: "to die would be an awfully big adventure."
Would sure suck if everyone else in your party went on to become gods etc whilst your throwing up on people shoulders and wetting yourself.
there are some very Interesting Ideas here Guy/Gals!!
Perhaps Peter Pan postulated with perfect produndity
Please tell me you had fun coming up with that one! :D
My Schtick: I think the over 30th level for PC's is a bit extreme. Yes the notion of it is really kinda cool and part of me wants to see this, but part of me is worried about the notion of going over 30th level. And that's simply because i have problems writing up monster stats. Just not a strength of mine and if the PC's do go over 30th level unless they come up with some sort of Epic Level MM than yeah I'd be in trouble. Suffice to say I think it's doable but needs to be given extreme care and caution to anything that comes out like this.
And what of the Redeemed Drow Epic Destiny? You are escorted by exarchs to face Corellon who removes the taint of Lloth from you and your memories fade as you are reborn as an elf/eladrin?
Would sure suck if everyone else in your party went on to become gods etc whilst your throwing up on people shoulders and wetting yourself.
Actually, with the right players I'm sure this would make an awesome campaign bent on roleplaying and discovery. Just fast-forward 20 years and have the other players become the protectors and patrons of the reborn former drow. :D
Anyway, what about a sourcebook similar to Power of Faerûn, where the focus lies on the social connections and responsibilities of epic tier characters? Perhaps even rituals like that flying mountain top thing (don't recall the name atm :P) put into a "usable" form.
Please tell me you had fun coming up with that one! :D
My Schtick: I think the over 30th level for PC's is a bit extreme. Yes the notion of it is really kinda cool and part of me wants to see this, but part of me is worried about the notion of going over 30th level. And that's simply because i have problems writing up monster stats. Just not a strength of mine and if the PC's do go over 30th level unless they come up with some sort of Epic Level MM than yeah I'd be in trouble. Suffice to say I think it's doable but needs to be given extreme care and caution to anything that comes out like this.
Why yes... yes, i did. :D
It's mainly a matter of balancing out hit chance and potential damage... accounting for control effects, etc. As others have said, 4e is very good about linear growth or things like attack bonuses and defenses, so extending that into super-epic tiers shouldn't be such an involved process. One day i was trying to find ways to boost a character's attack rolls... there were about two or three options, all applying only in extremely specific situations (when adjacent to a wall or making an opportunity attack). For the most part, rolls and defenses will follow a predictable, linear function, which the DMG guidelines (pg. 184, i have that memorised, how wrong is that?) do a pretty good job of approximating. I think the guidelines make things easy for low-level players (level 1-5ish) and harder for the highest levels (about level 25-30ish), if i remember my rather rough calculations. I'm rambling, but my point is, it's daunting if you don't know where to start, but once you've got the basics, it's not such a difficult thing to do. ;) Best of luck, whatever you chose.
~goes to study the Monster Manual~
EDIT :: Okay, this is just win.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
--Dawn of War
Librarian, right? Good times.
If gods are level 35, then they don't want to see WotC having to make up whole new species of run-off-the-mill level 36-37 creatures because the gods and primordials are too few to provide enough combat encounters for ten levels.
If Asmodeus is lvl 38 then there just shouldn't be a whole bunch of level 39 devils running around.
I guess the main concern of most people against this idea is that they want to have a consistent power hierarchy in the game universe.
If gods are level 35, then they don't want to see WotC having to make up whole new species of run-off-the-mill level 36-37 creatures because the gods and primordials are too few to provide enough combat encounters for ten levels.
If Asmodeus is lvl 38 then there just shouldn't be a whole bunch of level 39 devils running around.
I see what you mean. The thing is, WotC planned -not- to go beyond level 30, so that influenced their level assignment. Things like demon princes, archdevils and the gods themselves would need to be advanced a bit further if gameplay were extended to higher levels. I think the concept of "tiers" really sets up a nice structure for scaling things.
If a couple more tiers were to be added, extending gameplay to just level 50 (a pretty number, in my opinion), then the gods might remain about at the top, with greater gods becoming accessable opponents. They still aren't numerous, so straightforward combat is not the answer. I'd go with mostly non-combat encounters. If the campaign story brings you into direct conflict with a god, you could have plenty of skill challenges as you romp through his "lair", the god's own Astral Domain. Perhaps the deity's slain champions have been empowered by his divine spark and become pertainent combat challenges (singularly or en masse, at your discretion).
As i recall, the gods have banished/imprisoned all kinds of things that they could not defeat. If the deific powers couldn't best them in combat, it would probably require an extended quest, much like godslaying would. I imagine anything powerful enough to slay something the entire pantheon could not would be guarded by extremely elder magic and guardians of unimaginable power. You could again go with skill challenges and the like during such quests. Then you come to the final battles, which needn't even be a single encounter. You could have the primordial, primal spirit, elder evil, what-have-you could lead them deeper into it's prison catacombs, striking from hiding, using traps and terrain, drawing out the fight for days while depriving the enemy of sleep (like ninjas during a siege)!
There is really no limit to variety of encounters and challenges you could throw at your players, even with very few beings at this level. In the word (singular) of Spongebob: "imagination!" ~draws a sparkly rainbow in the air~ :D
Alternatively, it could just be revealed that the deities and archfiends that the PCs fought at epic-level were not their true form, but just another aspect.
I like that Idea!! like those were just a piece of their Essence!! And the Real thing is like 10 levels higher.. thats Deific thinking for you!!!
I like that Idea!! like those were just a piece of their Essence!! And the Real thing is like 10 levels higher.. thats Deific thinking for you!!!
And it could go on theoretically forever. These are GODS! You will NEVER face their true form.
You just killed Orcus' level 40 aspect? Fine. He'll just send his level 50 at you.
Alternatively, it could just be revealed that the deities and archfiends that the PCs fought at epic-level were not their true form, but just another aspect.
...Which is what they did in 3e... and it was lame.
Every deity detailed in 3e Deities and Demigods was revealed to be in fact just an aspect of that deity in 3.5e, because they released they didn't want players able to kill the gods like that. It's better that they avoid this and just not extend the level limit.
All the signs say that there is no post-epic tier in your official WotC material future.
...Which is what they did in 3e... and it was lame.
Every deity detailed in 3e Deities and Demigods was revealed to be in fact just an aspect of that deity in 3.5e, because they released they didn't want players able to kill the gods like that. It's better that they avoid this and just not extend the level limit.
As I recall that was more of a suggestion than a revelation. Considering the 3.5 deities were mostly around a level 60 challenge each, it was a suggestion only needed for extremely high level play.
If you prefer the lv.35'ish deities as being true forms that's fine. No ones going to force you to play otherwise. Super-epic isn't for everyone, it's for those groups interested in a story that has no arbitrarily enforced end game (or groups just out for a DBZ style power rush).
One book a year (plus maybe a recurrent article series in Dragon/Dungeon) is probably enough to support super-epic play, that still leaves those uninterested in such with 11+ other books a year, so I fail to see any significant problem in placating those who do want such rules.
All the signs say that there is no post-epic tier in your official WotC material future.
I don't think there are any signs that really point either way. The main support for no super-epic levels is that is maintains the status-quo. However, past editions of D&D have been evolving systems and 4e doesn't look to be any different. Also, players tend to get attached to there characters, so as more and more campaigns reach the end of epic tier the interest in super-epic rules is likely to increase. I'd say sometime in 2010 or early 2011 would be about the write time to release those rules.
I like that Idea!! like those were just a piece of their Essence!! And the Real thing is like 10 levels higher.. thats Deific thinking for you!!!
"Now you're thinking with Deities." ;)
That was a modified Portal plug, if you've never seen the trailer.
I'm going to continue posting my wild imaginings and speculation here, because... let's face it, conspiracies are fun. :D
Deities are not from here. They don't belong in the multiverse as we know it. They are unbound by most of it's laws and generally don't fit in. They usually seem rational enough... if extreme obsession with their portfolio is to be considered a form of deific sanity.
What we see of them is a little sliver of their being pressed roughly and imperfectly into the mold of our reality. Once a character reaches super-epic levels, the veil of reaily is pulled aside and they can clearly see the Truth and the implications thereof. The deities are really beings whose existence extends into (and oftentimes originates from) the Far Realm, that is, they come from all that is outside of our known multiverse.
Why are they here, exerting infulence upon our pocket reality? Well the answer isn't simple. Some ancient and exceedingly rare texts (written by those who may have, like you, seen what really is) claim that they are invaders, intent on farming the multiverse for souls to consume at their liesure. It sounds insane, but is not the Far Realm a place where insanity takes physical form? ;)
Its true that the latter are probably closer to the level of D&D godhood, it kind of gives you a model for what levels beyond 30 are supposed to look like. In D&D what defines what a character does during the course of a level tier is based on what it fights.
What do the "gods" of the Marvel Universe fight? Why, bigger gods of course. Gods that mortals never even here about, aka Galactus. The world becomes a flash in the pan for these characters. Instead of retiring to worship and portfolios our players take on the realm of protectors of the Universe. The adventures become like Star Trek. Instead of visiting a new city you'll go to a new planet or plane for an adventure. That one city you visit on the planet will probably represent the planet or plane as a whole. You are just to big to see the whole world.
The bad guys are the Gods themselves, Elder Gods of the Far Realm, or even the Gods of the Multiverse. These creatures aren't all necessary gods, just beings of immense power that want to turn your World into Residium for their machinations...
Your players' team gets an upgrade
Heroic: Teen Titans
Paragon: X-Men
Epic: Avengers
Legendary: Justice League