Essentials and DDI

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

shamefuldirty_g

Oct 24, 2010 5:05:52
Any word on when essentials will come to DDI? I would of thought they would of put them on by now, especially if you consider there are many parts of the book which tells you to try out DDI! tried to build a cleric with the character builder last night, but it just won't make an essentials one. Frown
#2

ranadiel

Oct 24, 2010 5:31:43
Unknown due to multi-projecting and programming difficulties. The update with essentials was originally suposed to come out the same day as the first Heroes book(delaying that update in the proecess), but they missed the date and the next (late) update only really contained Psionic Power. Supposedly they are working on a new web based tool that is delaying things, but we have no word on that thing other than it is being worked on and it is web based(speculation is a web port of the char builder).
#3

shamefuldirty_g

Oct 24, 2010 5:48:23
Thank you sir.....
#4

Janx_14

Oct 24, 2010 12:22:06
Yeah DDI is a bit of a mess right now.

Seems WoTC can't get digital releases to sink up with the books that advertise them at all.
#5

shamefuldirty_g

Oct 24, 2010 12:34:47
Maybe one day they will get their act together regarding DDI. I would of thought essentials would be a top priority for them since it's their new release and all that.....
#6

mellored

Oct 24, 2010 16:22:15
Honestly there short on programmers given what they are trying to do.  They are lucky the guys they have are pretty good.  But really, they just need to get more guys (or girls).
#7

thax

Oct 24, 2010 21:09:11
It is unfortunate, but Wizards (or more likely, Hasbro) looks at the DDi and the book sales as one overall total for revinue, instead of looking at it on it's own. This is the only explanation I can see as to why it is "Fluid" like right now, instead of being improved and updated with the various tools in place that it is missing, like a mapper and Encounter builder (Other than the web blip that was converted from the 3.5 days).

Manpower. Not just coders and programmers, but a separate person heading up the electronic side and programming leads that direct the various tools. But, as has been said before, this is Wizards, not Blizzard, and their history with the "Electronic Aids" is not good.

Bring back CMP, use the expertise from Lonewolf, or hire a good developer, but this in house experiment has not been successful except to syphon money in good faith and cheesing off customers.

If it keeps going like it is, they will find that there will be a severe lack of subscribers.
#8

Damon_Tor

Oct 24, 2010 21:10:01
I suspect someone at WotC is trying to kill DDI.  The situation just reeks of department-related conflict.  DDI makes a profit, so to kill it, they stop it from making a profit, and destroy their political enemies in the process by shifting the blame to that department.  Happens all the time in TV, Video Games, and Film, I don't see why a big Tabletop company would be immune.
#9

thax

Oct 24, 2010 21:21:15
I suspect someone at WotC is trying to kill DDI.  The situation just reeks of department-related conflict.  DDI makes a profit, so to kill it, they stop it from making a profit, and destroy their political enemies in the process by shifting the blame to that department.  Happens all the time in TV, Video Games, and Film, I don't see why a big Tabletop company would be immune.




Really, I don't think it is something being done on purpose, but incompetence can only go so far. It isn't that they are trying to kill it, but don't give it the importance it should have (if it ever did) to make it succeed. It sounded grand in the days before the first books came out, but the gaming table idea was a misplaced (imho) concept that brought about a lot of tech that could (and did) go wrong.

The Visualizer could have been a great addition, but the "engine" they used was a part of the Game Table, so it was gone with it.

All that was left was a bunch of articles that is gathered into a "magazine" at the end of each month, adventures that, in the first year, killed more characters than the whole run of the 3.0 era, and the "CB" which is taken to great pains to avoid calling it a "generator."

And the disappointments has not stopped since.
#10

frothsof

Oct 25, 2010 8:24:53

op, welcome to the magical world of ddi

#11

ian.thomson

Oct 25, 2010 11:24:43
Maybe one day they will get their act together regarding DDI. I would of thought essentials would be a top priority for them since it's their new release and all that.....



Seeing how many people cancelled their DDI subscriptions or demanded refunds when the past two updates didn't include anything from Dark Sun, I kinda hope they focus more on that, since it did comes out first and was so heavily pushed.  I'm guessing they're attempting to do both at the same time, which doesn't make as much sense to me since they're not exactly compatible.
#12

Mockduck

Oct 26, 2010 1:32:25
As someone who started playing D&D since the early 1980's, skipped 3rd and skipped 4th until Essentials came out, and who is extremely excited about the Essentials line and starting a campaign with it, I want DDI to include the character building info.  I saw the DDI promotions in the book and thought, "awesome! Can't wait to try it out."  I downloaded the demo and quickly realized that it was incompatible with building an Essentials character.  Or if not, I'm too dense to figure out how to do it.  Kind of odd that a major new marketing push for D&D wouldn't include updating DDI.  So, long and short of it, no point in me starting to subscribe until I'm able to use it.  Let me give you money!
#13

Thomson

Oct 26, 2010 6:55:52
Maybe one day they will get their act together regarding DDI. I would of thought essentials would be a top priority for them since it's their new release and all that.....



It is, but they wanted too much. One of the most common faults in management. The "we can do it" attitude.

It is totally unrealistic, nobody really knows how complex the thing is you want, nobody has real experience with it but "we can do it"...

As we have seen, they can't. And they are too proud to admit the mistake, scrap the web crap and just get the thing they have working.
#14

Damon_Tor

Oct 26, 2010 17:04:55
As we have seen, they can't. And they are too proud to admit the mistake, scrap the web crap and just get the thing they have working.



I figure they want to shift to a web-based model because they could actually stop people from using it.

Right now, when my subsrciption runs out in december, I'll still be ablr to use their character builder, because the software is installed on my machine: they have no way to take it away from me.

A web-based program would fix this problem, allowing them to restrict lapsed subscribers however they like.
#15

thax

Oct 26, 2010 21:46:20

A web-based program would fix this problem




Problem with that theory is, they already tried the web based character sheet like thing, calling it a "Character Builder" before the actual client (by the same name) was grudgenling gone to.


You can not do it with a web page, not at the suffistication that they need. Talk about a "character vault" was in the by ways 6 months before the release of 4th edition, then it disappeared once it was realized that each update of a character would take another slot, and that there were only gonna be fifteen (At first, it turned to twenty at one point) slots available. This was gonna be the only way to save characters!!


They are not, now or in the future, ever putting the CB into a web page and discontinueing the client. Not gonna happen.
#16

tpkurilla

Oct 26, 2010 23:14:22

A web-based program would fix this problem




Problem with that theory is, they already tried the web based character sheet like thing, calling it a "Character Builder" before the actual client (by the same name) was grudgenling gone to.


You can not do it with a web page, not at the suffistication that they need. Talk about a "character vault" was in the by ways 6 months before the release of 4th edition, then it disappeared once it was realized that each update of a character would take another slot, and that there were only gonna be fifteen (At first, it turned to twenty at one point) slots available. This was gonna be the only way to save characters!!


They are not, now or in the future, ever putting the CB into a web page and discontinueing the client. Not gonna happen.




Actually, you can be as sophisticated as a desktop app using Silverlight.  Silverlight also can be saved to desktops on PC *and* Mac.  It's made of win.  I'll be surprised if this isn't what they're doing.

-Thomas

#17

22_Over_7

Oct 27, 2010 0:25:30

A web-based program would fix this problem




Problem with that theory is, they already tried the web based character sheet like thing, calling it a "Character Builder" before the actual client (by the same name) was grudgenling gone to.


You can not do it with a web page, not at the suffistication that they need. Talk about a "character vault" was in the by ways 6 months before the release of 4th edition, then it disappeared once it was realized that each update of a character would take another slot, and that there were only gonna be fifteen (At first, it turned to twenty at one point) slots available. This was gonna be the only way to save characters!!


They are not, now or in the future, ever putting the CB into a web page and discontinueing the client. Not gonna happen.

A web-based Character Builder application would be one way to satisfy the Mac/Linux crowd.
#18

inarai

Oct 27, 2010 6:49:17

A web-based program would fix this problem




Problem with that theory is, they already tried the web based character sheet like thing, calling it a "Character Builder" before the actual client (by the same name) was grudgenling gone to.


You can not do it with a web page, not at the suffistication that they need. Talk about a "character vault" was in the by ways 6 months before the release of 4th edition, then it disappeared once it was realized that each update of a character would take another slot, and that there were only gonna be fifteen (At first, it turned to twenty at one point) slots available. This was gonna be the only way to save characters!!


They are not, now or in the future, ever putting the CB into a web page and discontinueing the client. Not gonna happen.

A web-based Character Builder application would be one way to satisfy the Mac/Linux crowd.



That's not some magical panacea to every other issue...  If you can't make something work on the primary platform, you don't care about the other ones one single iota.  Doesn't matter at all.
#19

Thomson

Oct 27, 2010 9:35:07
They are not, now or in the future, ever putting the CB into a web page and discontinueing the client. Not gonna happen.



Well I would almost bet that they want to do exactly that. Indeed web based development made a huge leap forward within the last 2 years. Stuff that only master developers with decades of experience and lots of arcane knowledge where able to do 2 years ago can now be done by just using the right java script library (ok that was a little pathetic, but I hope you get the point Wink)

And for an inexperienced manager who looks at all the nice toys for web development available, it may have looked like it would be possible to pull this off in 6 months.

Unfortunately, nice toys and awesome tools don't do the job for you.

#20

thax

Oct 27, 2010 17:48:35
Yeah, well just to inform that inesperience manager, web tools are to make a web page, not a data base of rules and math and a way to save particular set of statictics made to represent a character. Though that stuff may be possible, those nifty web builders don't have the instant make up to do that.

The CB was and still is the best way to go, as a client program. It would have been better to release it as a stand alone and have the DDi for updates, but that is water under the bridge. It still could be done in such a way, though, with a free update via code.

The various mistakes with this service is numerous, but the biggest one was to make big promises at the beginning, then scale back to basics when it was painfully obvious that it couldn't be done. The dismissal/leaving/firing of Radient aside, the first features should be here by now, not forgotten and every mention of them (Table, Visualer, Mapper, ect) removed from the site. (It is still in the back of the PHB/DMG/MM)

#21

lokiare

Oct 30, 2010 0:16:28
Yeah, well just to inform that inesperience manager, web tools are to make a web page, not a data base of rules and math and a way to save particular set of statictics made to represent a character. Though that stuff may be possible, those nifty web builders don't have the instant make up to do that.

The CB was and still is the best way to go, as a client program. It would have been better to release it as a stand alone and have the DDi for updates, but that is water under the bridge. It still could be done in such a way, though, with a free update via code.

The various mistakes with this service is numerous, but the biggest one was to make big promises at the beginning, then scale back to basics when it was painfully obvious that it couldn't be done. The dismissal/leaving/firing of Radient aside, the first features should be here by now, not forgotten and every mention of them (Table, Visualer, Mapper, ect) removed from the site. (It is still in the back of the PHB/DMG/MM)




Just so you know radient folded, and handed WotC whatever they had finished...
#22

thax

Oct 30, 2010 14:07:06
Wonder how think the dust is on that stuff, Wizards hasn't been concentrating on that area ever since the CB came out.
#23

ah_stormbringer

Oct 31, 2010 10:39:26
My DDI is up in nov and I don't think I am going to renew due to the lack of substance you get for it and at over 100 dollars a year its just not worth it. I may get a monthly sub once in awhile just to update my CB but that's it. Its sad cause the CB is a great product as is the MB but in the end its just not enough to justify the price.
#24

AaronOfBarbaria

Oct 31, 2010 11:20:06
...and at over 100 dollars a year...(


SurprisedThose are some pretty intense taxes you pay there... the yearly price says $71.40, so a little math and.... yeesh! That's over 40% tax!

I don't know if I'd stay living in the area you do if frivolous software (and similar items) were taxed so insanely high.

[intense and "unneeded" sarcasm on hold for a brief moment as I finish this post]

I understand that you may not feel you are getting your money's worth, but there is no reason to misquote fact in order to say so.
#25

ah_stormbringer

Oct 31, 2010 15:25:23
I am sorry I was misquoted the price by someone else, but its alot of money for what we are getting.
#26

zagadoo

Nov 01, 2010 20:33:34
This is only speculation, but I think they are trying to kill the CB component because it takes away from book sales. I haven't bought a book since, because as a player all of the relevant information that I need for a new build or a new character is already there.

If they are selling a yearly sub for 6 bucks a month rather than a 29 to 39 dollar book (I know they don't make all of that, but probably more than 6) every month or so, I can see how I might want to quash that.

It sucks, but if I was running a business and I saw that one product was killing my revenue from other products I might try to drive it to a slow death.
#27

thax

Nov 01, 2010 22:54:24
The silly thing is, they could have made more money with initial sales if the thing was a stand alone program instead of being attached to this online service. Even if they sold it for 20 bucks, with a free update and DDi service able to update it (as it does now), it would still have generated more cash and maybe have a push for DDi.

Having wanted to make it a web page generator instead of the "client" that it is now, I doubt that the "missed" sales of books is the main reason for the shoddy customer service. I see it as something more to do with overwhelming additions to the rule base that "one guy" taking care of the tools can't keep up with. It has been mentioned before that Wizards was, and still is, in over their heads with this digital initiative.
#28

mellored

Nov 02, 2010 7:16:23
Does anyone have any evidence of them doing it web side?  Or is this all speculation?

I havn't seen anything to suggest it's going to change.  It really just seems like there just short on programmers and had too many changes to make.
#29

ranadiel

Nov 02, 2010 11:16:04
Does anyone have any evidence of them doing it web side?  Or is this all speculation?

I havn't seen anything to suggest it's going to change.  It really just seems like there just short on programmers and had too many changes to make.



They stated in one thread somewhere(I really don't feel like finding it atm) that part of the reason for the delays is because of development of a new web tool. As I recall they stated nothing about its use, purpose, or when it would be released. Right now it is purely speculation as to what it may be, although I personally put the odds of it being a char builder replacement as rather high.
#30

mellored

Nov 02, 2010 11:51:05
Does anyone have any evidence of them doing it web side?  Or is this all speculation?

I havn't seen anything to suggest it's going to change.  It really just seems like there just short on programmers and had too many changes to make.

They stated in one thread somewhere(I really don't feel like finding it atm) that part of the reason for the delays is because of development of a new web tool. As I recall they stated nothing about its use, purpose, or when it would be released. Right now it is purely speculation as to what it may be, although I personally put the odds of it being a char builder replacement as rather high.

Dunno, that's quite the big thing to port, and it's seems to be making them a fair amount of money.  People tend not to mess with sucess, but they might.  It seems like some kinda map maker (using WoTC tiles), or token maker (using WoTC pictures) might also be options.
#31

ranadiel

Nov 02, 2010 12:11:21
Dunno, that's quite the big thing to port, and it's seems to be making them a fair amount of money.  People tend not to mess with sucess, but they might.  It seems like some kinda map maker (using WoTC tiles), or token maker (using WoTC pictures) might also be options.



Well the reasoning sort of goes that a) making the char builder web based would add the mac demographic, b) it eliminates the ability for people to subscribe for a month and get everything for as long as they have the app backed up, and c) it doesn't make sense to use up (their very limited) programmer resources on a project like a map builder at the exclusion of the flagship program, the char builder.
#32

ranadiel

Nov 02, 2010 12:56:14
Oh hey look, worst case scenario!
#33

mellored

Nov 02, 2010 13:49:42
Oh hey look, worst case scenario!

I wouldn't call it worst case.  Not best case (i still can't use it on my phone), but still, not worst case.
#34

thax

Nov 02, 2010 15:54:43
Web based.... Really?


This must be the CB they have been working on since before the launch. Sorry, this does it, I am gonna let my DDi sub laspe if they are gonna backslide into web portals and character vaults.
#35

ranadiel

Nov 02, 2010 18:13:25
I wouldn't call it worst case.  Not best case (i still can't use it on my phone), but still, not worst case.



I classify it as worst case because they are killing the non-web char builder support as well. That is a deal breaker for me.
#36

lord_rock

Nov 03, 2010 0:12:13
worst?  Did they pack a worm in the last update that will nuke the old CB on everyones computer when they release it web based?  So not quite worst but as close as you can get.  And they are keeping Dark Sun Hostage.


Very unhappy... see other posts elsewhere... move along now...nothing to see... just WOTC's being...
#37

ah_stormbringer

Nov 03, 2010 3:28:51
I was going to let my DDI lapse but now I fear I cannot as I use the CB all the time. This sucks.
#38

thax

Nov 03, 2010 18:23:47
Reposting what I put in the big thread...

I want to try and relate what this new move to Online Only Character Generator means for all involved.

For Wizards, it is a no brainer. All content is in house, updates are done on the fly instead of compiled and released for DL, and the need for complicated programing is gone. (It is a web page, after all)

For the customer, it is a loss. All the content is stuck within the servers, you can't save characters onto your own computer, and no matter what Hasbro says, there is gonna be a loss of functionality. It also removes any chance for 3pp support.


For DDi, it is a monumental obstacle, to try and put a coat of white wash on this painfully obvious downgrade, to make it seem like this is a move to provide a better product for the consumer instead of the DRM (Digital Restrictions Mandate) like change that it is.

This change is not for the customer, it is all for the advantage of keeping IP secure while charging a fee for it's use. This is E-Tools all over again, and this move is a Fluid like blunder.
#39

Kaviyd3

Nov 08, 2010 23:27:32
worst?  Did they pack a worm in the last update that will nuke the old CB on everyones computer when they release it web based?  So not quite worst but as close as you can get.  And they are keeping Dark Sun Hostage.



The offline Character Builder will last until its files get corrupted on your computer or you lose the use of whatever computers you have it downloaded to. 

Also, any custom campaign files you have been distributing to your friends will have a diminishing audience as they either lose or never had the last version of the offline Builder.

#40

devp

Nov 09, 2010 10:33:00
...and the need for complicated programing is gone. (It is a web page, after all)



I've seen this in a few places, and just to be clear: programming for the web is as complicated as programming anywhere. Here, we're talking about an evolving back-end and a rich Silverlight client - plenty of code.

So please: give credit (and an extra healing surge) to your friendly local web developer.

sincerely,
a html_removed web developer

p.s. there are many of us and some of us play d&d
p.p.s. leaving the html_removed bit for irony purposes 
#41

aaron99

Nov 11, 2010 17:09:44
I'm surprised everyone is so shocked that this day has finally come... it was inevitable really... they were pretty much giving all of their lastest material out for free. How many people do you think stopped buying new books simply because they would get them with the next dl of CB anyways. I'm sure they realized that instead of increasing revenue flow, the CB probably was leeching from it in the form of reduced book sales.

The new CB obviously isn't as good as the old one... but really can anyone blame them for making the change? Suck it up.  Yeah it's a sad day, but move on and deal with it. Hopefully in the future they will allow us to dl our charactes on to our computers so we don't need an internet connection to look at our characters. Other than that, I have no huge issues with it.
#42

ah_stormbringer

Nov 11, 2010 19:02:09
thats why they should have gone to a system where you only got access to the material in the books you bought. this to me makes more sence and rewards people that buy the books like myself and screws over the ones that do not buy them. I see this as useless once 5th ed drops as there will be no support anymore and I will be left with nothing.
#43

ah_stormbringer

Nov 12, 2010 19:02:11
that works for the old material but does nothing for those of us who will use essentials or DS stuff. I will keep the old one for sure but wizards has proven again that they can not be trusted and will screw us at any time.
#44

Tony_Vargas

Nov 15, 2010 20:00:42
that works for the old material but does nothing for those of us who will use essentials or DS stuff. I will keep the old one for sure but wizards has proven again that they can not be trusted and will screw us at any time.

You can just house-rule in DS and Essentials material.

Hey, their solution to not wanting to use Essentials stuff was to house-rule it out...  Tongue out

Seriously, though, I think standardizing campaigns on a prior update of Character Builder is a perfectly reasonable option.  That's still a /lot/ of stuff.



#45

ah_stormbringer

Nov 16, 2010 4:01:10

Tony that does not help people like myself as we wanted the essentails materials in the format for which we paid foer not some online only program that will not be available once 5th edition comes out and they stop supporting 4th. This is my main gripe I will be left without any support and an incomplete program.

#46

Marandahir

Nov 17, 2010 20:50:21
Who's to say they won't release a program version of the ChaBuilder at the end of this edition so people who don't want to go onto 5th Ed can still play?  It's not like they make much money on previous editions anyways?

They could even release it on an external CD-ROM for EVERYONE at that point, since it wouldn't be continued to be updated.
#47

kitrack

Nov 17, 2010 21:23:23
Who's to say they won't release a program version of the ChaBuilder at the end of this edition so people who don't want to go onto 5th Ed can still play?  It's not like they make much money on previous editions anyways?

They could even release it on an external CD-ROM for EVERYONE at that point, since it wouldn't be continued to be updated.



I don't think that will happen.  At that point, 4th ed won't be generating revenue in any significant fashion.  Why would they spend the money and time to modify the program to run locally?  Especially if it's going to be free of charge.
#48

Marandahir

Nov 18, 2010 6:05:04
Who's to say they won't release a program version of the ChaBuilder at the end of this edition so people who don't want to go onto 5th Ed can still play?  It's not like they make much money on previous editions anyways?

They could even release it on an external CD-ROM for EVERYONE at that point, since it wouldn't be continued to be updated.



I don't think that will happen.  At that point, 4th ed won't be generating revenue in any significant fashion.  Why would they spend the money and time to modify the program to run locally?  Especially if it's going to be free of charge.



But it wouldn't be free of charge.  They'd sell it in stores like Gamestop or Borders, you'd need a single activation key that would be inside the seal, and it would be sold at the end of the system's lifespan.  It could even be just an updated version of the Windows-only CharBuilder with everything else that came out updated in it.  I wouldn't get much use out of it (as I'm praising Pelor for the release of a Mac-compatible ChaBuilder right now), but I'm sure some people would love it and buy it.
#49

Marandahir

Nov 18, 2010 13:29:33
Yeah, but we already established that you'd doubt a lot of things that have come since Essentials, even when they turned out to be true.
#50

DoctorBadWolf

Dec 05, 2010 18:30:54
Reposting what I put in the big thread...

I want to try and relate what this new move to Online Only Character Generator means for all involved.

For Wizards, it is a no brainer. All content is in house, updates are done on the fly instead of compiled and released for DL, and the need for complicated programing is gone. (It is a web page, after all)

For the customer, it is a loss. All the content is stuck within the servers, you can't save characters onto your own computer, and no matter what Hasbro says, there is gonna be a loss of functionality. It also removes any chance for 3pp support.


For DDi, it is a monumental obstacle, to try and put a coat of white wash on this painfully obvious downgrade, to make it seem like this is a move to provide a better product for the consumer instead of the DRM (Digital Restrictions Mandate) like change that it is.

This change is not for the customer, it is all for the advantage of keeping IP secure while charging a fee for it's use. This is E-Tools all over again, and this move is a Fluid like blunder.



While I'm generally an opponent of DRM, I have to disagree with you on this. While I don't love the new online CB, the other one was being pirated to an extant that made asking people to pay monthly for it an absurdity. It's not like the pdfs. They'd be better off releasing the pdfs for free when the books are released in stores, Doctorow style.

With the CB, it's like an online game. In order to make a monthly subscription service viable, you have to do two things. First, make it worth the asked for monthly fee. Second, avoid widescale free  third party distribution of the tools you propose to provide for a fee.



#51

thax

Dec 05, 2010 19:15:36
The supposed loss of revenue would not be as much as the loss of subs because of this major blunder. Pirates getting the CBC before still needed the updates for newer material and Errata. Though some could get seperate updates for the thing, current ones took some time to get, if you could find them at all, and a lot of pirated stuff out there were buggy and unstable, not to mention viruses that could be included with them.

Sorry, but the argument that pirated CBC was cutting into Wizards profits isn't vaible and is no excuse for the loss of function and having a retarted GUI. This reminds me of Fluid debacle all over again.
#52

Marandahir

Dec 05, 2010 20:35:18
The supposed loss of revenue would not be as much as the loss of subs because of this major blunder. Pirates getting the CBC before still needed the updates for newer material and Errata. Though some could get seperate updates for the thing, current ones took some time to get, if you could find them at all, and a lot of pirated stuff out there were buggy and unstable, not to mention viruses that could be included with them.

Sorry, but the argument that pirated CBC was cutting into Wizards profits isn't vaible and is no excuse for the loss of function and having a retarted GUI. This reminds me of Fluid debacle all over again.



I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.
#53

ranadiel

Dec 06, 2010 3:45:06
I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.



Because being able to steal all of the rule elements from the WotC site makes a lot more sense.
#54

Marandahir

Dec 06, 2010 8:12:42
I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.



Because being able to steal all of the rule elements from the WotC site makes a lot more sense.



What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof.  It's imbedded, so you can't download the material and share it.
#55

mellored

Dec 06, 2010 8:47:10
I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.

Because being able to steal all of the rule elements from the WotC site makes a lot more sense.

What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof resistant.  It's imbedded, so you can't it's very difficult download the material and share it.

Fixed.

It IS a pretty good system, theft wise (usability wise is a separate issue), outside a "regular" hacker's abilities, but it's not unbreakable.
#56

Marandahir

Dec 06, 2010 9:09:48
Good point, Mellored.  But regardless, the majority of people trying to steal the CharBuilder are going to be foiled now.  You can't just download it and then upload it on 4shared or something.  Of course, hackers did get the patches for the old one, so…

In any case, I expect that this will STRONGLY decrease piracy of the CharBuilder.  Keeping it all web-based is smart, and is what most web-services do to protect their content.  WotC's just following suit.
#57

mellored

Dec 06, 2010 10:06:17
Good point, Mellored.  But regardless, the majority of people trying to steal the CharBuilder are going to be foiled now.  You can't just download it and then upload it on 4shared or something.  Of course, hackers did get the patches for the old one, so…

In any case, I expect that this will STRONGLY decrease piracy of the CharBuilder.  Keeping it all web-based is smart, and is what most web-services do to protect their content.  WotC's just following suit.

I agree.  It's passed the magic "it's cheaper/easier to buy it then steal it" threshold.  It would take me an hour of work each month to buy it, and probably a good 40 + 2-3 a month to steal it.

Though i know i'm not the best hacker in the world.  Nor would i actually share anything (i generally do it for the challenge, and only on my own computers), i like D&D and theft reduces content.
#58

ranadiel

Dec 06, 2010 11:55:54
What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof.  It's imbedded, so you can't download the material and share it.



It means that unless they increased security in the past two or three weeks, you can get all the rule elements from WotC's web site without a subscription using winzip(or maybe it has to be winrar, I forgot) and notepad. Really it isn't hard at all.

-=Edit: Just double checked, the file is still available. I'm assuming the rest of the procedure is still doable.=-
#59

excalainen

Dec 06, 2010 12:25:29
Reposting what I put in the big thread...

I want to try and relate what this new move to Online Only Character Generator means for all involved.

For Wizards, it is a no brainer. All content is in house, updates are done on the fly instead of compiled and released for DL, and the need for complicated programing is gone. (It is a web page, after all)

For the customer, it is a loss. All the content is stuck within the servers, you can't save characters onto your own computer, and no matter what Hasbro says, there is gonna be a loss of functionality. It also removes any chance for 3pp support.


For DDi, it is a monumental obstacle, to try and put a coat of white wash on this painfully obvious downgrade, to make it seem like this is a move to provide a better product for the consumer instead of the DRM (Digital Restrictions Mandate) like change that it is.

This change is not for the customer, it is all for the advantage of keeping IP secure while charging a fee for it's use. This is E-Tools all over again, and this move is a Fluid like blunder.



While I'm generally an opponent of DRM, I have to disagree with you on this. While I don't love the new online CB, the other one was being pirated to an extant that made asking people to pay monthly for it an absurdity. It's not like the pdfs. They'd be better off releasing the pdfs for free when the books are released in stores, Doctorow style.

With the CB, it's like an online game. In order to make a monthly subscription service viable, you have to do two things. First, make it worth the asked for monthly fee. Second, avoid widescale free  third party distribution of the tools you propose to provide for a fee.



We have a group of about 20 active D&D players around here, and I was the only one who actually subscribed to DDI. All the others used the pirated version of the CB. However, not a single one of them has now subscribed to DDI to continue getting access to the CB. Moreover, I myself dropped my two year long subscription because I hate DRM fascism and the way WotC handled the situation. Also, there is now a significant chance that we will stop buying new D&D books because we still use the old CB and don't have much enthusiasm for character options that can't be used with that program. I doubt our group is an isolated case. WotC shot its own foot with this debacle.
#60

Marandahir

Dec 06, 2010 12:51:52
What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof.  It's imbedded, so you can't download the material and share it.



It means that unless they increased security in the past two or three weeks, you can get all the rule elements from WotC's web site without a subscription using winzip(or maybe it has to be winrar, I forgot) and notepad. Really it isn't hard at all.

-=Edit: Just double checked, the file is still available. I'm assuming the rest of the procedure is still doable.=-



Hopefully WotC will work on a solution to that.  I've never heard of people doing it, but I'm sure you know what you're talking about, Ranadiel.
#61

ranadiel

Dec 06, 2010 15:56:54
Hopefully WotC will work on a solution to that.  I've never heard of people doing it, but I'm sure you know what you're talking about, Ranadiel.



Well I learned about the possibility of doing it from people talking about it in either the Char Builder forum or the D&Di general forum within three days of the online char builder going live. I then figured out the winzip+notepad method through experimenting on my own to see what could be done. What you get is basically the 4ed srd, only with more fluff. It is actually formatted for entry into cbloader, but it is missing a few things neccessary for direct copy and pasting.

Honestly I'm suprised that I haven't seen more discussion about it recently.

And I don't know if there really is much that WotC can do. In theory they can encrypt the data(like the offline char builder data was), but I'm pretty sure this data is stored locally to improve speed and encrytping it would diminish that advantage. They could just store the data on the server instead of having it saved locally, but the online char builder has speed issues and that would compound them dramatically. Plus that would alsio require a dramatic change to the programming. But really this sort of thing is outside of my area of expertise, so I can only speculate. *shrugs*
#62

thax

Dec 06, 2010 17:49:41
I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.



Because being able to steal all of the rule elements from the WotC site makes a lot more sense.



What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof.  It's imbedded, so you can't download the material and share it.




He was responding to one that had gotten the CBC and Updates (most likely the month before) from the web, not the current one. No one wants the WEBCB right now, not in the Fluid like state it is in.
#63

Marandahir

Dec 06, 2010 18:31:26
I know people who regularly (as in, EVERY SINGLE TIME IT WAS UPDATED) got the updates to old character builder off 4shared.  Sorry, but doesn't cut it. 

The new character builder makes a lot more sense.



Because being able to steal all of the rule elements from the WotC site makes a lot more sense.



What the nine hells is that supposed to mean?  The new CharBuilder is theft proof.  It's imbedded, so you can't download the material and share it.




He was responding to one that had gotten the CBC and Updates (most likely the month before) from the web, not the current one. No one wants the WEBCB right now, not in the Fluid like state it is in.



No he wasn't.  Read what Ranadiel said above.
#64

DoctorBadWolf

Dec 11, 2010 4:44:01
The supposed loss of revenue would not be as much as the loss of subs because of this major blunder. Pirates getting the CBC before still needed the updates for newer material and Errata. Though some could get seperate updates for the thing, current ones took some time to get, if you could find them at all, and a lot of pirated stuff out there were buggy and unstable, not to mention viruses that could be included with them.

Sorry, but the argument that pirated CBC was cutting into Wizards profits isn't vaible and is no excuse for the loss of function and having a retarted GUI. This reminds me of Fluid debacle all over again.




It was absurdly easy to find reliable, stable, full and near immediately available pirated updates for the CB. IIRC, those members of the forums I frequented to discuss dnd in a less censored manner than can be done here, who pirated the CB, only had to wait more than a few days more than subscribers 2 or 3 times.

The only reasons to pay for a DDI sub were a very mild convenience advantage, lack of knowledge, sheer honesty, or loyalty to wotc.

I have three friends who now have a subscription, even though we're not completely happy yet with how the CB works, and at least as many aquaintances who've either started or continued a sub. 

I know exactly one person who has suggested going back to the offline version and only using material that can be run through that program.




We have a group of about 20 active D&D players around here, and I was the only one who actually subscribed to DDI. All the others used the pirated version of the CB. However, not a single one of them has now subscribed to DDI to continue getting access to the CB. Moreover, I myself dropped my two year long subscription because I hate DRM fascism and the way WotC handled the situation. Also, there is now a significant chance that we will stop buying new D&D books because we still use the old CB and don't have much enthusiasm for character options that can't be used with that program. I doubt our group is an isolated case. WotC shot its own foot with this debacle.




And my anecdotal evidence directly contradicts yours.

This change is hardly a debacle, nor is it an example of DRM fascism.

This is almost exactly like if you were to get angry at the makers of an MMO because, in the past, the format of their game had made it easy to steal the hell out of it, and they changed the format to make it less easy to steal future content (perhaps by hosting less of the game client side), but left the existing content in place for those who liked using it (so you could still play the game in the state in which it existed before the change).

In both cases, the anger is not only misplaced, it is absurd.

#65

thax

Dec 11, 2010 13:15:40
The difference between an MMO and the WEBCB change is that the MMO will most likely improve with any changes they do, for DRM purposes or any other. The WEBCB loses funtionality, is less intuitive, and leaves out portions of the character building process.

Yes, IP protection was a part of this move, as well as Wizards being suckered in by Microsoft about the awesome qualities of Silverlight and the ease of intregration between it and the other tools in the future.

Don't kid yourself, though. It is a Fluid move. I just hope Wizards are better at Patching the new version of this E-Tools like program than Fluid was.
#66

DoctorBadWolf

Dec 19, 2010 1:00:39
I don't know (or care in any way whatsoever. at all.) who or what Fluid is or was, but the simple truth of this situation is that it was pretty much a necessary change. Expecting to make money from a subscription to something that is nearly as easy to get for free doesn't work. Whether it should or not is irrelevant. Wizards got that, and acted accordingly.

The new CB still improves the DnD experience over not having a CB at all, and it does it in a way that is less susceptible to profit loss. Over the next few months, enough of the issues will probably be fixed that it will be a small effective difference between new and old. At that point, wizards will be benefiting from a good online tool that isn't rediculously easy to steal, and we will benefit from a character builder to make character building astronomically more convenenient. In the end, that's what matters.

Yes, I liked the offline CB more than I like the new one. However, the new one is a smarter product, from a business standpoint, and it's still a good product.

It's like pie and cake. I prefer pie, but if plans change and I end up getting cake where I was expecting pie, I'm still getting something that's good. Maybe not as good as my first choice, but if there's a good reason for the change, I can live with second choice. I'm a grown adult, and am thus not going to throw a fit over it.
#67

ranadiel

Dec 19, 2010 4:55:29
At that point, wizards will be benefiting from a good online tool that isn't rediculously easy to steal....



Online char builder+winzip+notepad=free 4ed and essentials srd to anyone on the internet