Player(')s Handbook
Dungeon Master Guide
Monster/Monstrous Manual/Compendium
how about the Essential line? how many products is a new player/group supposed to buy to have a complete ruleset for playing?
Starter Set
Heroes of the Fallen Lands
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (to have at least 8 classes, as is per 4th ed PHB)
Dungeon Master's Kit
Monster Vault
Rules Compendium
that makes 6 of them!
Am I missing anything?
Also, if your already familiar with 4e. Rules Compendium + DDI net's you nearly everything.
Starter Set - this is just to get people that never played interested in the game, you won't need it. Actually, from what I heard from reviews, it doesn't even use exactly the same rules as the other Essentials, so it really easy what it says in the title: something to get you started (if you are a complete noob).
Heroes of the Fallen Lands - the 4 base classes, like in the good old days. So, you need.
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (to have at least 8 classes, as is per 4th ed PHB) - after all, 4 classes should be enough, I don't think you REALLY need this.
Dungeon Master's Kit - I would have said you don't need this, but I think now magic items are described in this book? So, you need.
Monster Vault - you need
Rules Compendium - you need
So, I would say, 4 essentials needed.
The complete package is as Delazar78 stated - the starter set is really for pure newcomers (or, I guess, returning oldsters ;)). Four products (they cover the same content as the 3 original books, but it's just divided out more finely).
well, yes... but you get only half the classes. and we (read: "I") know little about races variability.
the real fact is, btw, yeah: I was specifically assuming a new group, who wants to start playing. An already experienced group need no one of the essentials (unless they be a real new edition, of course, me being ready to believe it being a "half" one, if you know what I mean).
Oh, well, yeah. Sorry I wasn't clear on that - by "covering the same content" I guess I meant covering the same content areas - DM stuff, Monsters, Classes, and How To Play.
DM Stuff: Dungeon Master's Kit
Monsters: Monster Vault
Classes: Heroes of the Fallen Lands
How to Play: Rules Compendium
All you need is DM's Kit and a 1 month DDI subscription.
I'm actually looking at Essentials for a way to free myself from the "digital" component of 4E.
Many times it happened at our table that we had a doubt about a rule, and, since we didn't know if there was an update or not, we just said "ok, let's play it like this today, then tonight I'll check it out online".
Now, I'm planning to just have the Essential books with me at the table, and look everything up in the books, ignoring any future errata.
Now, I'm planning to just have the Essential books with me at the table, and look everything up in the books, ignoring any future errata.
You could do that with the books you have. Your already hooked on D&DI.
"ok, let's play it like this today, then tonight I'll check it out online"
That's good DMing wether your books are up to date or not, keep the game moving.
since 1978 with the (1st ed) AD&D, we were supposed to be able to start playing with 3 products:
Player(')s Handbook
Dungeon Master Guide
Monster/Monstrous Manual/Compendium
how about the Essential line? how many products is a new player/group supposed to buy to have a complete ruleset for playing?
Starter Set
Heroes of the Fallen Lands
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms (to have at least 8 classes, as is per 4th ed PHB)
Dungeon Master's Kit
Monster Vault
Rules Compendium
that makes 6 of them!
Am I missing anything?
If I were a new group this is what I would acquire:
Red Box (September) 1 adventure
Rules Compendium (September) Rules for the Game
Heroes of the Fallen Lands (September) Player Character Options
Then in October pick up:
Dungeon Masters Kit (October) 2 adventures and Great info for a DM
Then in November pick up:
Monster Vault (November) 1 adventure and tons of monsters to make your own adventures
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom (November) More Player Character Options
This should keep your group busy for several months (assuming 4 hrs once a week of adventuring). If you play more often than that you can find modules for print for sale you can use after you finish the 4 Essentials modules.
Also purchasing 1 month of DDi would serve you well as well. You could download all of the Dungeon Magazines and run one of the 2 adventure paths (Scales of War or Chaos Scar). That would give you plenty of adventuring to last a year or more.
If I were a new group this is what I would acquire:
Red Box (September) 1 adventure
Rules Compendium (September) Rules for the Game
Heroes of the Fallen Lands (September) Player Character Options
Then in October pick up:
Dungeon Masters Kit (October) 2 adventures and Great info for a DM
Then in November pick up:
Monster Vault (November) 1 adventure and tons of monsters to make your own adventures
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom (November) More Player Character Options
that was my point: they managed to double the number of items to buy in order to start playing...
If I were a new group this is what I would acquire:
Red Box (September) 1 adventure
Rules Compendium (September) Rules for the Game
Heroes of the Fallen Lands (September) Player Character Options
Then in October pick up:
Dungeon Masters Kit (October) 2 adventures and Great info for a DM
Then in November pick up:
Monster Vault (November) 1 adventure and tons of monsters to make your own adventures
Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdom (November) More Player Character Options
that was my point: they managed to double the number of items to buy in order to start playing...
With the above you are getting the equivalent to the 3 core books, 1 set of dice, 1 dungeon tile set, 1 DM screen and 1 major adventure (i.e Keep on the Shadowfell). If you take that all into consideration you are getting a very easy and similar cost expenditure.
If you would like I will gladly go and pull the prices from Amazon for each of these and let you see the comparison.
What do price comparisons matter during a Fracking depression?
...uh...
That way they can charge you more.
What do price comparisons matter during a Fracking depression?
...uh...That way they can charge you more.
If it's cheaper, I'm more likely to look into it.
All you need is DM's Kit and a 1 month DDI subscription.
I'm actually looking at Essentials for a way to free myself from the "digital" component of 4E.
Many times it happened at our table that we had a doubt about a rule, and, since we didn't know if there was an update or not, we just said "ok, let's play it like this today, then tonight I'll check it out online".
Now, I'm planning to just have the Essential books with me at the table, and look everything up in the books, ignoring any future errata.
I don't see the point, d20, and 4e even more was designed for a computer to handle which makes chargen a pain unless done with the character builder. Character builder brings it down to 15 minutes, which is acceptable, I quite enjoy making characters with it.
A 1 month subscription gives you every official character class up to that point, forever. I don't see any value in either of the Heroes books, unless you really want to do it old school, in which case other systems are better.
red Box $19.99. heroes of the fallen lands $19.99. heroes of the forgotten lands $19.99. rules compendium $19.99. d&d roleplaying game dice $12.99
new dm: cost would be $162.93 $92.95 plus $69.98 a dm would need the player stuff
dungeon masters kits $39.99. monster vault $29.99
this doesn't include the dungeon tiles.
the biggest increase is on the player: $34.99 to $92.95. however, one could remove the dice since that is the only thing not in the original player's handbook. this reduces the price to $79.96.
On top of that, I thought the DM's kit was supposed to include enough monsters to get things started.
So, as I see it, the bare minimum is:
One copyof Heroes of the Fallen Lands.
One copy of the Rules Compendium.
One copy of the DM's Kit.
One set of dice for the DM.
One set of dice for every two players at the table.
The most logical upgrade products would be Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms and the Monster Vault, followed by additional dice.
new player: cost would be $92.95
red Box $19.99. heroes of the fallen lands $19.99. heroes of the forgotten lands $19.99. rules compendium $19.99. d&d roleplaying game dice $12.99
new dm: cost would be $162.93 $92.95 plus $69.98 a dm would need the player stuff
dungeon masters kits $39.99. monster vault $29.99
this doesn't include the dungeon tiles.
the biggest increase is on the player: $34.99 to $92.95. however, one could remove the dice since that is the only thing not in the original player's handbook. this reduces the price to $79.96.
This is completely wrong. As you already mentioned, talking about the dice is just stupid.
Red Box isn't necessary, at all. Again, stupid.
Only one of the Heroes books is necessary. Rules Compendium is optional, the DM can hold on to that.
So really the starting cost is $20, $14 if you buy from Amazon.
DM doesn't need the player stuff, you totally missed the point of the rules compendium, it's so all the rules are in one book instead of 3.
Cost for the DM is Rules Compendium, DM's Kit and Monster Vault. That's $40+$30+20, putting the total cost at $90 vs $105, and quite a bit lower from Amazon.
Red Box isn't necessary, at all. Again, stupid.
apart from dubiously necessary words, the fact is the RB is there for starters to buy.
It probably is a good starting point (I very much treasure my RB from the eighties), but as far as how much content is there for playing I'll wait and see. (the old RB even had dice!)
If a starting group buys one, it may have to buy the other products as well rather sooner than later.
It is, as it's supposed to be, a purely introductory boxed set. A complete n00b kid of about 12 (or, if more than average intelligence and reading ability, a bit younger) could pick it up and without any help, use it to get into the game. I would call it an updated, massively improved version of the previous 4e introductory boxed set (which I also own). There's a pre-programmed solo adventure that leads into the DMed adventure (included). Which looks like a good one. A few cool ideas there.
I think it will do well what it is meant to do, which is give players a taste of D&D, taking characters from creation to second level. If players are still interested after that, then they can invest in the other Essentials stuff as their experience grows.
I think comparing prices for the group as a whole gives a more realistic picture than taking each player and the DM separately.
So, assuming a group of 4 players + 1 DM, a group starting pre-Essentials needs:
5 x PHB1 (assuming each player wants their own copy - you could in theory share one among the whole group like my group does, or have one DM copy and one player copy) = $174.75
1 x DMG1 = $34.95
1 x MM1 = $34.95
1 x DM's Screen = $9.95
2 x set of dice (1 for the players to share and 1 for the DM - additional sets are optional) = $25.90
Total = $280.50 / 5 = $56.10 each
A new group starting with Essentials needs:
1 x Red Box = $19.99
6 x HotFL or HotFK (DM wants one of each, but each player only needs the one appropriate to his own character - like the PHB1, you could just share 1 or 2 of each among the group) = $119.70
1 x DM's Kit = $39.99
1 x Monster Vault = $29.99
1 x set of dice (beyond what's in the Red Box - additional sets are optional) = $12.95
Total = $222.62 / 5 = $44.52 each
So, starting with Essentials is ~20% cheaper than starting with the old PHB/DMG/MM for an average newbie gaming group.
new player: cost would be $92.95
red Box $19.99. heroes of the fallen lands $19.99. heroes of the forgotten lands $19.99. rules compendium $19.99. d&d roleplaying game dice $12.99
new dm: cost would be $162.93 $92.95 plus $69.98 a dm would need the player stuff
dungeon masters kits $39.99. monster vault $29.99
this doesn't include the dungeon tiles.
the biggest increase is on the player: $34.99 to $92.95. however, one could remove the dice since that is the only thing not in the original player's handbook. this reduces the price to $79.96.
This is completely wrong. As you already mentioned, talking about the dice is just stupid.
Red Box isn't necessary, at all. Again, stupid.
Only one of the Heroes books is necessary. Rules Compendium is optional, the DM can hold on to that.
So really the starting cost is $20, $14 if you buy from Amazon.
DM doesn't need the player stuff, you totally missed the point of the rules compendium, it's so all the rules are in one book instead of 3.
Cost for the DM is Rules Compendium, DM's Kit and Monster Vault. That's $40+$30+20, putting the total cost at $90 vs $105, and quite a bit lower from Amazon.
calm down, settle down, it's okay. I already mentioned that a player only needs to buy heroes of the fallen lands. if you took some time to read my statement instead of getting all stirred up you might have read that I was comparring how much essential material equalled the phb. the rules compendium, the two heroes books equals 8 classes and the rules all within the pages of the phb.
most dms I know are players- they also buy the players stuff.
amazon is irrelevant- I'm going on base price.
It makes sense to assume a new group will buy the Red Box, but not to assume each individual player will buy his own copy of it.
I think comparing prices for the group as a whole gives a more realistic picture than taking each player and the DM separately.
So, assuming a group of 4 players + 1 DM, a group starting pre-Essentials needs:
5 x PHB1 (assuming each player wants their own copy - you could in theory share one among the whole group like my group does, or have one DM copy and one player copy) = $174.75
1 x DMG1 = $34.95
1 x MM1 = $34.95
1 x DM's Screen = $9.95
2 x set of dice (1 for the players to share and 1 for the DM - additional sets are optional) = $25.90
Total = $280.50 / 5 = $56.10 each
A new group starting with Essentials needs:
1 x Red Box = $19.99
6 x HotFL or HotFK (DM wants one of each, but each player only needs the one appropriate to his own character - like the PHB1, you could just share 1 or 2 of each among the group) = $119.70
1 x DM's Kit = $39.99
1 x Monster Vault = $29.99
1 x set of dice (beyond what's in the Red Box - additional sets are optional) = $12.95
Total = $222.62 / 5 = $44.52 each
So, starting with Essentials is ~20% cheaper than starting with the old PHB/DMG/MM for an average newbie gaming group.
Don't you also need the rules compendium to play essentials? I was under the impression that a new player would need one of the "heroes" books and the rules compendium to play the game. So the entry point is $39.98.
OK. It's September 7th here in Australia, and I got my Red Box, since I have Gamer's ADD and cannot wait another two weeks for the Heroes of the Fallen Lands.
I'm getting a Red Box shipped from amazon to get my girl into 4e DnD, but I also ordered it because the purchase page says it comes with a battlemap and dice (two things that either my area game stores don't stock or charge way too much for).
Also I've heard on the podcasts that Essentials should work with 4E published campaigns. Can anyone chime in on this?
However you look at it, you cannot get all of the relevantinformation to play w/o buying all of the books. Things that are missing are just stupid, like rituals, and superior weapons.
Umm... You don't need rituals or superior weapons, and about 1/2 of them wheren't even in the PHB1, they came in AV1/Arcane power.
Based on the pricing, those books now cost the new players more than it did if all they needed was PHB1.
Umm depends on your definition of "need" i suppose.
You now "need" 4 items (DM kit, RC, Hero's, Monster Vault) to repalce the previously "needed" 5 (DMG, PHB1, MM, Dice, mini's). Excluding the mini's (which you don't technical "need"), the essentials is cheaper.
Now if you decide you "need" multiple copies for multiple people, or complain about mini's vs tokens, or slayers vs fighters, i'm sure you can gerrymander things to make one side out more expensive, as the difference isn't big.
Rules Compendium really has more of the finer rulings in it, like flying or aquatic battles. >__>
Also the dice are low quality Chinese things that do not seem balanced very well. I used them during a game over the weekend, and rolled the same number on the d6 seven times in a row. Possible, yes. Statistically very unlikely with well made dice.
This is true of every die I've ever purchased ever.
Game Science dice are of the highest quality. No doubt about it. But, I've never met a set of dice that were so obviously out of whack that they weren't suitable for gaming. Some very crappy dice, yes, but tollerably random. In fact, the dice in the original TSR boxed sets from the late 70s were of remarkably low quality (ugly, and the edges and corners wore off so fast you could almost see it happening - your d20 could turn into a virtual sphere).
My 1st box didnt have dice it had chits with numbers on them. You put them in a cup and drew out your number.
My 2nd box with the dice and crayon were not the best dice in the world. But guess what they worked and we played years with them.
So I am with ya on this