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Evil!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
victordavion
Jan 01, 2009 23:17:48 Anyone heard if they are releasing a version of the 'Book of Vile darkness'? How about just evil support for all PC classes?

I keep wanting to create an evil campaign for my PCs but for classes like the Cleric or the Paladin it is kind of awkward to translate 50% of their powers and such.

Does anyone think they might add support for evil characters in PHB 2? I mean what else is going to be in PHB 2 besides new classes and races and maybe supplement rules (or clarifications)?

Discuss.
#2
sigil_beguiler
Jan 01, 2009 23:21:30 I personally hope they don't make a Book of Vile Darkness, since well that book wasn't really describing "evil". It was more just trying to be gross and over the top.

Also, what issues are you having with Clerics and Paladins? I can't really see what mechanical issue there is with them being evil.
#3
GMforPowergamers
Jan 01, 2009 23:42:59
I personally hope they don't make a Book of Vile Darkness, since well that book wasn't really describing "evil". It was more just trying to be gross and over the top.

Also, what issues are you having with Clerics and Paladins? I can't really see what mechanical issue there is with them being evil.

how about a book of darkness not so vile...PCing evil...
#4
Dragon9
Jan 01, 2009 23:58:00 The Book of Squeamish Gloom?
#5
calronmoonflower
Jan 02, 2009 0:01:21 Making a book to help DMs with evil isn't a bad idea, it just got done badly in the past.

For a better example try, Heroes of Horror.
#6
vaalingrade_ashland_02
Jan 02, 2009 0:04:23 I certianly hope they won't make a new version of the seocnd worst game supplment ever printed. Or the worst, the Book of Exhalted Deeds.
#7
sfdragon
Jan 02, 2009 0:05:24 hehehe
the book of vile trash was rotten, the book of exalted dead wasnt much better.

better evil book, I do agree Heroes of Horror
#8
Ramien
Jan 02, 2009 0:43:28 Some type of support would be nice for evil characters, however. It'd certainly be nice to get the channel divinity feats for the evil gods, some magic holy symbols for their followers, stats for exarchs for various deities (give godslaying PCs something to cut their teeth on), things like that.
#9
doctorhook
Jan 02, 2009 0:55:49 Once a year, on a morning in the spring, my extended family goes out to this old cemetery by this old church out, way out in the middle of nowhere, and we eat lunch next to the graves of our relatives, after the Orthodox priest blesses the graves and the food. (It's a Ukrainian Orthodox holiday that my family calls "Prouda"; I can't really explain more than that, because that's all I know.)

Anyway, hanging around all this old stuff (old graves, old farm houses, and so on) gives me all kinds of inspiration for creepy, evil adventures. And I'll say this much: Heroes of Horror comes to mind plenty more often than Book of Vile Darkness does.

In 4E, players ought to be describing their powers for themselves anyway. As for reflavoring, in most cases, it's simplest to just replace Radiant damage with another damage type appropriate to the Evil entity worshipped: Necrotic is a good standard, but you might consider Fire for Asmodeus, Poison for Zehir (or even Lolth), or maybe Psychic if the character worships a Far Realm being. Remember that substituting damage types is the easiest kind of reflavoring, because you can do it so easily.
#10
darotwyn_dup
Jan 02, 2009 4:33:30 Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful.
#11
That_Blasted_Somoflange
Jan 02, 2009 5:27:56
Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful.

Actually, I would expect that support for the evil gods will less likely be in a players handbook and more likely to turn up on DDI.
#12
Omni-Wyvernil
Jan 02, 2009 6:45:40 The concept of an evil player's guide isn't actually a bad idea (even if parts of the BOVD were kind of iffy). Some things that might be included there might include:

- Monstrous races such as orcs, kobolds, goblinoids, and so forth.
- "Channel Divinity" feats for evil gods.
- Some more evil-flavored powers, such as 'dark priest' and 'blackguard' builds for the Cleric and Paladin, some darker Wizard or Warlock spells, and so forth.
- Evil-themed paragon paths/epic destinies (maybe include some that let you turn into a lich, vampire, or other monster).

For both DMs and players, the book might also include some roleplaying tips for playing an evil campaign, and give advice on how to avoid some of the most common pitfalls (such as motivating evil PCs to complete quests, avoiding intra-party infighting, and dealing with 'stupid evil' behavior).
#13
Dragon9
Jan 02, 2009 8:18:45
Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful.

I'll take that bet. 2 Cookies says there will be no such thing in the PHB2. :D
#14
Ramien
Jan 02, 2009 11:55:01
Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful.

I find that fairly unlikely, considering Paladins and Clerics both also have Channel Divinity and are known to worship any gods, yet we still have no evil Channel Divinities.
#15
darotwyn_dup
Jan 02, 2009 15:50:11
I find that fairly unlikely, considering Paladins and Clerics both also have Channel Divinity and are known to worship any gods, yet we still have no evil Channel Divinities.

I think the reason was to reserve some of it for later releases, Clerics and Paladins are more inclined to worship good or unaligned gods than evil ones, sure they CAN worship any god, but that's against the flavor. The Invoker flavor seems to specifically state they can and do worship evil gods. Plus it'll help pad out the books with feat crunch and some fluff.

If not in PHBII I see it in Divine Power, either way not that long to wait for that aspect.
#16
victordavion
Jan 03, 2009 11:44:13 Im not saying we need a reprint of the BoVD in any stretch of the imagination, but homebrew evil channels and the odd feats only go so far.

I know its a heroic game, but there are people out there than want to play a more cruel, withdrawn or even sociopathic hero.

Its not as easy to reflavor all the Cleric options into evil options. I mean just turning radiant damage to necrotic damage isnt really an 'evil' thing to me, its just a damage type. So seeing a small subset of evil themed abilities, even if it is a DDI release, would be most appreciated on my end.

I mean I certainly will pay to do less work. :p
#17
kalstrand
Jan 04, 2009 11:22:33 I don't see anything focused on evil campaigns anytime soon. D&D has always been focused on the players being the good guys and I think they moved a bit further in that direction with 4E.
#18
doctorhook
Jan 04, 2009 12:54:38
I don't see anything focused on evil campaigns anytime soon. D&D has always been focused on the players being the good guys and I think they moved a bit further in that direction with 4E.

I'm not so sure about that. I think that with the release strategy for 4E, there's pressure for them to release all of the "old normal" options (Druids, Barbarians, Sorcerers, Bards, and Monks) before delving into the "anti-hero" options. That said, I think it's just a matter of time before we see more evil/anti-hero options, either in a print supplement or in Dragon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 victordavion Jan 01, 2009 23:17:48	Anyone heard if they are releasing a version of the 'Book of Vile darkness'? How about just evil support for all PC classes? I keep wanting to create an evil campaign for my PCs but for classes like the Cleric or the Paladin it is kind of awkward to translate 50% of their powers and such. Does anyone think they might add support for evil characters in PHB 2? I mean what else is going to be in PHB 2 besides new classes and races and maybe supplement rules (or clarifications)? Discuss.
#2 sigil_beguiler Jan 01, 2009 23:21:30	I personally hope they don't make a Book of Vile Darkness, since well that book wasn't really describing "evil". It was more just trying to be gross and over the top. Also, what issues are you having with Clerics and Paladins? I can't really see what mechanical issue there is with them being evil.
#3 GMforPowergamers Jan 01, 2009 23:42:59	I personally hope they don't make a Book of Vile Darkness, since well that book wasn't really describing "evil". It was more just trying to be gross and over the top. Also, what issues are you having with Clerics and Paladins? I can't really see what mechanical issue there is with them being evil. how about a book of darkness not so vile...PCing evil...
#4 Dragon9 Jan 01, 2009 23:58:00	The Book of Squeamish Gloom?
#5 calronmoonflower Jan 02, 2009 0:01:21	Making a book to help DMs with evil isn't a bad idea, it just got done badly in the past. For a better example try, Heroes of Horror.
#6 vaalingrade_ashland_02 Jan 02, 2009 0:04:23	I certianly hope they won't make a new version of the seocnd worst game supplment ever printed. Or the worst, the Book of Exhalted Deeds.
#7 sfdragon Jan 02, 2009 0:05:24	hehehe the book of vile trash was rotten, the book of exalted dead wasnt much better. better evil book, I do agree Heroes of Horror
#8 Ramien Jan 02, 2009 0:43:28	Some type of support would be nice for evil characters, however. It'd certainly be nice to get the channel divinity feats for the evil gods, some magic holy symbols for their followers, stats for exarchs for various deities (give godslaying PCs something to cut their teeth on), things like that.
#9 doctorhook Jan 02, 2009 0:55:49	Once a year, on a morning in the spring, my extended family goes out to this old cemetery by this old church out, way out in the middle of nowhere, and we eat lunch next to the graves of our relatives, after the Orthodox priest blesses the graves and the food. (It's a Ukrainian Orthodox holiday that my family calls "Prouda"; I can't really explain more than that, because that's all I know.) Anyway, hanging around all this old stuff (old graves, old farm houses, and so on) gives me all kinds of inspiration for creepy, evil adventures. And I'll say this much: Heroes of Horror comes to mind plenty more often than Book of Vile Darkness does. In 4E, players ought to be describing their powers for themselves anyway. As for reflavoring, in most cases, it's simplest to just replace Radiant damage with another damage type appropriate to the Evil entity worshipped: Necrotic is a good standard, but you might consider Fire for Asmodeus, Poison for Zehir (or even Lolth), or maybe Psychic if the character worships a Far Realm being. Remember that substituting damage types is the easiest kind of reflavoring, because you can do it so easily.
#10 darotwyn_dup Jan 02, 2009 4:33:30	Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful.
#11 That_Blasted_Somoflange Jan 02, 2009 5:27:56	Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful. Actually, I would expect that support for the evil gods will less likely be in a players handbook and more likely to turn up on DDI.
#12 Omni-Wyvernil Jan 02, 2009 6:45:40	The concept of an evil player's guide isn't actually a bad idea (even if parts of the BOVD were kind of iffy). Some things that might be included there might include: - Monstrous races such as orcs, kobolds, goblinoids, and so forth. - "Channel Divinity" feats for evil gods. - Some more evil-flavored powers, such as 'dark priest' and 'blackguard' builds for the Cleric and Paladin, some darker Wizard or Warlock spells, and so forth. - Evil-themed paragon paths/epic destinies (maybe include some that let you turn into a lich, vampire, or other monster). For both DMs and players, the book might also include some roleplaying tips for playing an evil campaign, and give advice on how to avoid some of the most common pitfalls (such as motivating evil PCs to complete quests, avoiding intra-party infighting, and dealing with 'stupid evil' behavior).
#13 Dragon9 Jan 02, 2009 8:18:45	Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful. I'll take that bet. 2 Cookies says there will be no such thing in the PHB2. :D
#14 Ramien Jan 02, 2009 11:55:01	Well I'll almost guarantee there will be Channel Divinities and in depth write-ups for evil gods in PHBII based on the Invoker preview, as they have Channel Divinity and tend to worship any gods, even evil ones, as long as they're powerful. I find that fairly unlikely, considering Paladins and Clerics both also have Channel Divinity and are known to worship any gods, yet we still have no evil Channel Divinities.
#15 darotwyn_dup Jan 02, 2009 15:50:11	I find that fairly unlikely, considering Paladins and Clerics both also have Channel Divinity and are known to worship any gods, yet we still have no evil Channel Divinities. I think the reason was to reserve some of it for later releases, Clerics and Paladins are more inclined to worship good or unaligned gods than evil ones, sure they CAN worship any god, but that's against the flavor. The Invoker flavor seems to specifically state they can and do worship evil gods. Plus it'll help pad out the books with feat crunch and some fluff. If not in PHBII I see it in Divine Power, either way not that long to wait for that aspect.
#16 victordavion Jan 03, 2009 11:44:13	Im not saying we need a reprint of the BoVD in any stretch of the imagination, but homebrew evil channels and the odd feats only go so far. I know its a heroic game, but there are people out there than want to play a more cruel, withdrawn or even sociopathic hero. Its not as easy to reflavor all the Cleric options into evil options. I mean just turning radiant damage to necrotic damage isnt really an 'evil' thing to me, its just a damage type. So seeing a small subset of evil themed abilities, even if it is a DDI release, would be most appreciated on my end. I mean I certainly will pay to do less work. :p
#17 kalstrand Jan 04, 2009 11:22:33	I don't see anything focused on evil campaigns anytime soon. D&D has always been focused on the players being the good guys and I think they moved a bit further in that direction with 4E.
#18 doctorhook Jan 04, 2009 12:54:38	I don't see anything focused on evil campaigns anytime soon. D&D has always been focused on the players being the good guys and I think they moved a bit further in that direction with 4E. I'm not so sure about that. I think that with the release strategy for 4E, there's pressure for them to release all of the "old normal" options (Druids, Barbarians, Sorcerers, Bards, and Monks) before delving into the "anti-hero" options. That said, I think it's just a matter of time before we see more evil/anti-hero options, either in a print supplement or in Dragon.