In about 80% of the campaigns I run and play in, the PCs prefer to play evil-aligned. So, I was curious, is there going to be a supplement for evil campaigns? I dont mean a new Book of Vile Darkness, but something that takes the Divine classes (and other classes)and gives them options that would allow them to be more dark and sinister. Not really crazy that in 4E you HAVE to be the good guys.
When the cleric of Bane in the party uses "Beacon of Hope" I kinda cringe.
There is currently no indication that they are going to release an evil character book. And as I have every other time this has come up, I have to question why we even really need one beyond channel divinities for evil dieties(and you can use domains to somewhat make up for the lack of these). Just have your players refluff any options they like mechanical but don't like thematically. And have the divine characters pick up Divine Power so they can use domains.
I have to disagree that an evil supplement is unneccessary. Here's a list of things I would like to see in such a book:
A list of Channel Divinty feats for evil deities (especially the FR dieties)
New class features for each class that could be used to create assassins, dark paladins, necromancers and other dark variations of the base classes.
New paragon classes that complement the new features. (again the dreadmaster of Bane comes to mind) Then of course those evil bastards would have to become epic evil bastards.
New powers that utilize energies of death and pain instead of light and happiness. (ie holy becomes unholy etc)
Items that use unholy energy. Think of the fun that could be have with a greater list of malevolent intelligent items.
There are many more ideas that could be placed within such a book. And people would buy it. WotC printed Book of Vile Darkness and Champions of Ruin in 3.5 for some reason. Honestly, the ability to play the bad guys is the only reason 3.5 is better than 4th... Can we fix that?
I grant you channel divinity(although we already have one for Bane), but really most of the rest of those are pretty much unnecesary. Oh I can pretty much guarantee you that we won't be getting channel divinities for evil FR dieties. I don' know why, but Wizards didn't even both putting what domains they were associated with in Divine Power, so getting unique rule elements for all of them seems pretty much guaranteed never to happen.
Assassins are coming out as a shadow class in Dragon later this month, although it should mentioned that they aren't an "evil" class. Just as the Assassin isn't "evil" the paladiin isn't good and you can make a perfectly fine dark paladin. Necromancer will probably be a class in some future PHB, nce again not as an "evil" class.
PP rely on the previous element so I'm just skipping them.
Holy and unholy is kind of a silly distinction in a polytheistic world. Pelor and his followers are unholy abominations.....to the followers of Asmodeus. All divine classes channel the enrgy of the Astral Sea as that is where the essence of all gods comes from. Radiant damage which I'm assuming is what you are complaining about when you say "light and happiness" isn't just pure good energy. It is the energy that creates the very life essence of the gods tehmselves. When you are hitting someone with radiant damage it isn't "rainbows and puppies" it is the manifestation of the ideals that your god represents.
As for items, I don't really see any benefit to items that try to screw the party over. We have enough evil intellegent items and artificats as it is(if I'm not mistaken at least half of them already are evil, associated with evil beings, or close enough).
There are many more ideas that could be placed within such a book. And people would buy it. WotC printed Book of Vile Darkness and Champions of Ruin in 3.5 for some reason. Honestly, the ability to play the bad guys is the only reason 3.5 is better than 4th... Can we fix that?
Have you seen what people think of the Book of Vile Darkness? It isn't thought of very highly on these forums.....and I've never heard of Champions of Ruin.
And no we can't fix that, since it isn't broken to begin with.
Quick fix (straight out of DMG1), if it says radiant, change it to necrotic, fire, or acid.
Quick fix (straight out of DMG1), if it says radiant, change it to necrotic, fire, or acid.
There's no reason it couldn't STAY radiant.
There's nothign that says an evil deity can't power your character's radiant abilities with a dark blast. It might make sense to change it to necrotic for Vecna, but you could easily say a cleric of Asmodeus channels the dark energy of the Nine Hells and still deals damage of the "radiant" type.
Back to the OP:
Treat Radiant as Divine, not Holy, and it applies just as well to Evil deities. A Lance of Faith is still a Lance of Faith, but there's nothing that says it can't be a dark bolt that looks obviously sinister. (you could even keep the flavor text, make it a dark gold, and add the flavor of "it washes over your opponent with a sense of dread") Refluff, no need to change game text, now it's an "evil" power. Beacon of Hope could just be "Dark Reassurance". No need to change any game text, and now it sounds like a power an evil cleric would use.
Channel Divinity for the evil deities would make a good magazine article. The rest can be refluffed with little effort, methinks.
One might even argue that a cleric of Vecna needs that Radiant power every so often, to beat back the undead under the control of Orcus, (that bastard usurper of a demon . . .). 
Edit: Though for the sake of the evil players, there should be Channel Divinity for their gods (just in case the DM doesn't want to use Domains?) and possibly some slightly more evil rituals, summoning demons and undead, for instance. Possibly even alternate ritual ingredients? The Lich Transformation and Dark Gift of the Undying rituals from the first 4th ed MM come to mind as examples of evil rituals.
I hope and look forward to any new products that give more options for evil aligned characters, powers, items and adventures and would support those products as much as I do the rest.
They would also do well to specify a ritual for making Death Knights, the one where you bind your soul to a sword. Cause that would be cool.
They would also do well to specify a ritual for making Death Knights, the one where you bind your soul to a sword. Cause that would be cool.
you mean a Swordmage?
They would also do well to specify a ritual for making Death Knights, the one where you bind your soul to a sword. Cause that would be cool.
you mean a Swordmage?
Actually it says in the MM and and the DMG (next to the MM Death Knight entry and the DMG Death Knight template) that there is a ritual that creates the Death Knight, and gives special rules about the sword that differ from the Swordmage.
There is some evil character support in the Exemplers of Evil and Elder Evils but to the degree as in the 3.5 Champions of Ruin.
It seems we are back to being Heroes and not Villians in the 4.0. Since they want this to be like an MMO model, you don't play a villian to often.
Since they want this to be like an MMO model, you don't play a villian to often.
Dear god, so much fail it hurts.
Since they want this to be like an MMO model, you don't play a villian to often.
Dear god, so much fail it hurts.
Yeah, you heard the subtle "4th ed is WoW" in there too, huh?
No classes are inherintly good, the paladin has Ardent Vow if he wants to be less leadery ('I Ardently Vow to sacrifice your entrails to my god!), when it comes to the cleric, everyone needs healing, even evil people, the avenger is already more unaligned/evil, and the invoker is probably most correct to its fluff as unaligned (since they supposed to worship the whole pantheon, though their convenant contradicts this). I believe there might be 2 divine paragon paths that have some alingment based things in them.
Sure, you don't have deity specific CD's, but divine power gave you domains, many of which can apply to evil gods.
Besides that, MAYBE the primal classes seem kinda good-goody? The martial ones are all unaligned, and so are arcane. And psioncs you just have to switch from from fighting the far realm to aiding it, or abusing your mental power.
There are plenty of monsters who are unaligned or good, and its not like evil doesn't fight evil ever.
My party which has had at most 9 people at one time, has only ever had 2 good aligned people at most.
To me it makes perfect sense for both good and evil clerics to use holy power. The followers of Asmodeous (sp) probably consider him holy and Pelor unholy so they would still be using holy power in their views.
Could you imagine the kind of Characters they would be in today's world?
"Hi, I'm making a new Child Molester/Rapist for our campaign to join up with the Suicide Vest Maker and the Canibalistic Serial Killer in our group..."...
Couldn't resist, sorry...
Primal classes only seem goody-goody until you remember that the primal spirits of the earth don't always consider the "civilized" races to be a blessing to their beloved world. People who serve the primal spirits could just as easily 'defend nature' by uprooting and destroying anyone who tries to tame the land for farming, slay wild beasts for game, or 'pull Mother Earth's bones out of her body'-- aka mining for ore & metals. Not to mention a pack of evil, berserk barbarians that should be the deepest fear of any frontier town or village...
Primal as goody goody? LOL! When I think of primal, I think of savage, wild and dangerous.
The only thing we have thats really close to being "goody goody" is a deva paladin. And even then you could be playing a fallen deva (E/CE) so its up to the player and DM.
Primal classes only seem goody-goody until you remember that the primal spirits of the earth don't always consider the "civilized" races to be a blessing to their beloved world. People who serve the primal spirits could just as easily 'defend nature' by uprooting and destroying anyone who tries to tame the land for farming, slay wild beasts for game, or 'pull Mother Earth's bones out of her body'-- aka mining for ore & metals. Not to mention a pack of evil, berserk barbarians that should be the deepest fear of any frontier town or village...
Primal as goody goody? LOL! When I think of primal, I think of savage, wild and dangerous.
Agreed. When I think of the Primal power source, I don't generally think of benevoltent shaman and medicine men (though that also fits the bill). What does come to mind is people who wear animal skins and fight like rabid beasts; roaring as they slash with claw-like blades, and biting when an enemy gets in to close.
I think that, as far as sources of power go, the only one that needs more evil options would be the divine sort. You know, actual Channel Divinity feats concerning the main evil gods. Add in some rituals, and perhaps evil character Backgrounds, and you'd have what you need (really) for evil characters.
Other notes could be flavor ones, for example different components for rituals, such as blood or even living beings.
But this wouldn't really need to be a huge book. About the size of that Dragonborn thing coming out . . .
I'm still completely supportive of an abyssal power source, or infernal, hellish, more dark and brutal than shadow, primal or elemental.
I'm still completely supportive of an abyssal power source, or infernal, hellish, more dark and brutal than shadow, primal or elemental.
"Dark and brutal"? That sounds like an invitation for the Metal power source.
Mosh-er: Metal Striker
Headbanger: Metal Leader/Defender
For some reason I'm now thinking of an all Metal adventuring party; like Deathklok in D&D.
I'm still completely supportive of an abyssal power source, or infernal, hellish, more dark and brutal than shadow, primal or elemental.
"Dark and brutal"? That sounds like an invitation for the Metal power source.Mosh-er: Metal Striker
Headbanger: Metal Leader/Defender
For some reason I'm now thinking of an all Metal adventuring party; like Deathklok in D&D.
Then you're getting closer to my vision of a abyssal power source, only less comical. Also, just nitpicking here, but its Dethklok.
What about a dog power source ?
What is more evil than a dog ? They attack you in the back, you always have to show that you are their master (like devils in the Nine Hells…), if they feel that killing your baby will earn them a higher place in the house hierarchy, they will eat it !
Worse they do not allow to go on vacation when you want and they force you to spread their digestive final products everywhere in the open air, preferably in the middle of the pavement where they can make a maximum of victims.
And they keep brainwashing humans to talk about them as the human's best friend ! (When everybody knows it's the microwave oven (except in america where it's the gun).
Please, think about it, dog power source : EVIL !
Next week, deeper into the evil power sources, we will discuss the petroleum power source.
PS : And what about considering the divine power source evil by default ? It works with Conan…
is anyone going to revive this thread? it's a good one and i would hate to see it die, and where is the petroleum power source i was promised 1 month ago?