Wizards Not Reprinting Core Dungeons & Dragons Books?
ManaNation has received a tip that Wizards of the Coast has decided to end the print run of the Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Core Handbooks, instead aiming to turn the game in the direction of “Dungeons and Dragons Essentials”, a product to be released later this year. The first product for the Essentials line is starting with the ‘Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Roleplaying Game’ also being called ‘the Red Box’ and is due to be released on Sept. 7th, 2010.
It is our understanding that they are not going to be reprinting any of the three main books, the Players Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual from this point on to allow them to be phased out. No other books have been mentioned.
www.mananation.com/exclusive-wizards-rep...
The PHB is full of errors, classes with two many stat dependencies and a variety of other problems. I think it's a bad intro book to D&D compared to what they could make if they designed a new one.
The DMG is great though. Unless the book in the DM Kit is just as good, that could be a problem.
The MM has been drastically eclipsed by MM2 monsters and even more so by MM3 monsters.
The core three books were good for when they came out, but the designers and developers have learned so much since then and I think it might be time to replace them.
Oh noes! Someone made a post on a Magic site that they recieved a tip that WotC might not continue printing the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1! Teh sky, it is a fallin'!
And yet Essentials is not 4.5? In the sense that despite no longer a required purchase, the PHB is fully compatible with the Essentials line. In essence, the PHB becomes an expansion to the Essentials line.
Yeesh...
Oh noes! Someone made a post on a Magic site that they recieved a tip that WotC might not continue printing the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1! Teh sky, it is a fallin'!
I could'nt care less. Just trying to get confirmation one way or the other. Shouldn't they reprint the PH1 with errata or is it just superfulous by now.
Also, the ink is made from the tears of players can't resell their old books.
PROVE ME WRONG!!!
I have received an exclusive baseless rumor that the all new WotC products will be printed with 3-month disappearing ink, so after three months, you'll have to buy new copies.
Also, the ink is made from the tears of players can't resell their old books.
PROVE ME WRONG!!!
The rumor I'd heard was that WotC's parent company Hasbro was going to send their hired goons to the homes of everybody who bought the PHB, DMG and MM1 and take the books back and on top of that delete your copy of the character builder just so you could never use the old options again.
I have received an exclusive baseless rumor that the all new WotC products will be printed with 3-month disappearing ink, so after three months, you'll have to buy new copies.
Also, the ink is made from the tears of players can't resell their old books.
PROVE ME WRONG!!!
I like! Personally, I write all my AP reports with ink mixed from my players tears.
The rumor I'd heard was that WotC's parent company Hasbro was going to send their hired goons to the homes of everybody who bought the PHB, DMG and MM1 and take the books back and on top of that delete your copy of the character builder just so you could never use the old options again.
The really great thing about that is that for the first time in RPG history, that's sort of a credible threat. WotC could delete the old material from the character builder, which is as close as you can come to taking books back. But they won't. And people will still claim Essentials is 4.5.
The rumor I'd heard was that WotC's parent company Hasbro was going to send their hired goons to the homes of everybody who bought the PHB, DMG and MM1 and take the books back and on top of that delete your copy of the character builder just so you could never use the old options again.
They can have my DMG when they pry it from my cold, dead hands!
I'm fine with the Core books being taken out of print for now. They've been out for two years and there's an ample supply in FLGSes, chain bookstores, online retailers, and other places around the country. People may be buying them now, but are they being bought in large enough quantities to justify the cost of printing them constantly? Probably not.
However, I think making them PERMANENTLY out of print might not be such a good idea, especially if WotC is staying true to its word that D&D Essentials is fully compatible with the original 4E stuff and is meant as just a different means of getting people into the game. Rather, let the current copies sell, and then in a year or so (after the newly drawn-in crowd created by the Essentials line starts to expand into other books), do another print run of the Core books WITH ERRATA/UPDATES/CORRECTIONS. Or at least of the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual, because those same races, classes, feats, monsters, etc., aren't available in that form anywhere else. The DMG stuff can be replicated easily with Essentials products and Red Box, but if the Knight from Essentials (for instance) is meant to be a "variant" of the PHB1 Fighter, well, there ought to be a PHB1 Fighter available to players who join the game, say, 5 years down the line.
(EDIT: And believe me, I've seen what these "something important is going out-of-print" rumors and announcements can do - I play Axis & Allies War at Sea, and when WotC announced earlier this year that the first two sets were going OOP, people FLIPPED. If that's the case for D&D, we're in for several straight months of bitching and arguing. It'll be like the good ol' days leading up the 4E release all over again!
)Rather, let the current copies sell, and then in a year or so (after the newly drawn-in crowd created by the Essentials line starts to expand into other books), do another print run of the Core books WITH ERRATA/UPDATES/CORRECTIONS. Or at least of the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual, because those same races, classes, feats, monsters, etc., aren't available in that form anywhere else.
Pretty much everything you've said. One note: what I'd like to see rather than a straight PHB1 reprint is a new book with all the unique PHB 1 material: classes, builds, feats, and magic items that don't show up in Essentials. That way you aren't asking new players to buy anything twice, and old players don't need to buy it cause they've already got it.
Not that I get worried about random rumors, but this'd be a great test of the whole 4.5 thing. If you can pick up a copy of Essentials and a copy of the PHB2, and play a sorcerer without running into any incompatibilities or necessary house rules, it becomes pretty hard to argue that Essentials is 4.5. And if WotC was going to stop printing the PHB1, they'd have to be pretty confident that you could do exactly that.
Not Exactly. The Sorcerer is a complete class. Provided one somehow had at basic grasp of the rules (such as the quickstart rules from Keep on the Shadowfell), one has never NEEDED an actual copyof the PH1 to play any of the classes from PH2.
The better test of compatibility would be if one could sit down with only a copy of Essentials and Martial Power, then successfully play say a Battlerage Fighter.
That would be indeed a good test
. If the first books go out print, some of the earlier sourcebooks may be harder to use. Martial Power for example specifically mentions PHB 1 fighter features. If that class ceases to exist as a physical product, Martial Power looses some of its value.Since the new Essential builds are supposed to be new and different versions of the old classes, if the old books go out of print, we do loose access to the old mechanics, unless you're an Insider, of course...
This rumors certainly doesn't bode well for the company :P.
Every product has it's day in the sun, and then life moves on.
Considering the old editions ie the first core books have acknowledged design errors that have been changed in official errata you would think they would let the stock run out regardless of what future course was planned.
If they never release updated Core books so be it. I've got the books, I'm ok.
When I consider how many games I have played in 3.5 recently and NONE of those are in print.
We've always 'known' 4th edition was never going to be a 'final' edition.
If 2011 comes, and NOTHING much is being printed for 4th edition, it just means my wallet can go off in search of other hoby items knowing I won't need to keep an eye out for new 4th edition content.
Essentials is not 4th edition. I don't care what catchy name it wears. 4.5, 4th edition lite, Essentials, they're just names for something that isn't 4th edition.
If 2011 comes, and NOTHING much is being printed for 4th edition, it just means my wallet can go off in search of other hoby items knowing I won't need to keep an eye out for new 4th edition content.
This. If more people took this attitude then we'd need endure far fewer of these doomsayer threads.
Essentials is not 4th edition. I don't care what catchy name it wears. 4.5, 4th edition lite, Essentials, they're just names for something that isn't 4th edition.
Less so this. You're certainly free to hold whatever opinion you like, but the truth is that Essentials is still the same game. Sure a few of the older classes are getting revamped, but the core foundation of how the game is played isn't really changing all that much. Even 3.5 was still mostly compatible with 3.0, and the changes set for essentials are far less significant than those differences.
There might be a few hiccups, like mixing old Fighter material with new, but it's likely to be nothing that can't be smoothed over with a few DDi articles.
WoTC is a money grabbing greedy corperation!!! Their going to remove products from the shelves so you can't spend money on them anymore!!!
There aren't many posts in the Essentials wharrgabbbarrrglles I wish I'd made first. This is one of them.
Just talked to my WOTC contact: It's a fine distinction and not news, but they are not re-printing the core books. They have an enormous quantity of them in stock, so they don't NEED to re-print them. There is no intention of phasing them out. They will not be disappearing from store shelves anytime soon.
The sky is indeed continuing to not fall. Diane?
In other news, Global Warming continues to lose ground as the latest statistics show that the last decade actually cooled down by a degree...
Which is actually just the other side of the same coin, an effect known as global dimming.
Esentials is not the same game at all, while it is not a completely new game it is different enough not to be 4th edition. Also mostly compatable is not fully compatable which is what Wizards has promised.
Again, Essentials is still the same game. These aren't new CLASSES, just new BUILDS. Sure they're more radical in scope than previous builds but they aren't going to have that big an impact on how the game is played. The biggest difference is the Knight, but despite what the doomsayers like to think even that build isn't all that different.
- No mark, but a class feature that produces a similar mechanic.
- No at-will attacks, but at-will stances that buff basic attacks in a similar way.
- No encounter attacks, but class features that provide a similar boost.
- No dailies, but presumably some other class feature to make up the difference.
As I see it the Psionic classes of PH3 where a bigger deviation from the standard 4e model, given that they can choose to use the same low level "encounter" power repeatedly in a row.
The sky is not falling. The product lines are fully compatible, otherwise Essentials would be every future product instead of just a 10 piece introductory line.
Wizards of the Coast is a for profit enterprise which goes out of business if it fails to turn a profit, and seeking to earn a profit doesn't qualify a corporation to be called evil. True evil takes a lot of work, ask Hitler and Stalin. While you definitely label these two men as evil, you couldn't label them as lazy.
The point I'm trying to make in my own inarticulate and clumsy manner is that sometimes things really aren't that bad, and Wizards of the Coast will not take all your old, "error-filled" core books from you in order to make you buy the essentials products. It might turn out the essential products are actually quality material.
Thanks, Steve. In other news, Global Warming continues to lose ground as the latest statistics show that the last decade actually cooled down by a degree...
Scientist think there might be a connection to the number of people who arn't acting nearly as bright as they used to be.
Hey Bocc if you can take a build from MP2 and use it with the essential line then maybe but otherwise the two lines are not totally compatable. That is what we were promised not 99% but 100%. That is one of the big things that has alot of players pissed off.
Their as compatible as a bow ranger and a beast ranger.
If that's not 100% then none of the game is compatible.
wait a minute.
Knights get Weapon Talent. I wonder what this means for various Fighter builds? Can they be used with Knights and Slayers?
That said, let's assume that "Weapon Talent" doesn't mean the same thing as "Fighter Weapon Talent." One's missing the term Fighter, right?
Okay. So assuming that they aren't the same feature, you can't build a Battlerager Fighter, a Tempest Fighter, a Brawling Fighter, or an Arena Fighter (presumably) solely from the options in the book they are introduced in and the Essentials line.
As long as no wordings are changed, that is. Seriously? How hard is it for WotC to print out new errata that allows the wording to replace the Fighter options in Essentials? Assuming (and I know that's an medium-sized assumption) that we've still got the Universal Advancement Chart, it could say, refer to that chart instead of the Fighter chart here. Remember, come Paragon Tier, a Knight can forgo his normal advancement and take powers normally just like any other Fighter. I'd highly doubt that they'd eliminate the Universal Advancement Chart given this case – though they might work it into how each class is written (saying that you can take these options instead).
And if you don't want to print errata for your Martial Power book or Martial Power 2 book just so it's compatible with Essentials by changing a couple words around? Really, then, who's being the difficult one? Errata Rules Updates are free for anyone to download, not just D&D Insiders.
I'm very interested in the Psionic Power book, but I'll wait to see if I go full Essential or stay away from it. There won't be a hybrid 4th/Essentials in my case. It's going to be one or the other.
So I prefer to wait on the remaining 2010 product line.
I'm very interested in the Psionic Power book, but I'll wait to see if I go full Essential or stay away from it. There won't be a hybrid 4th/Essentials in my case. It's going to be one or the other.
Are you sure you're not creating a false dichotomy for yourself? You've decided that Essentials is so different from current rules that mixing won't work based on what? Partial spoilers for three builds from one Essentials product out of ten? Is that really a logical conclusion to arrive at? Or do you think it might be an overreaction?
There won't be a hybrid 4th/Essentials in my case. It's going to be one or the other.
You may want to go listen to the first 20 minutes or so of the last podcast.
This seems to be proof. Wouldn't need this product otherwise.
The one thing you can find 'between the lines' here is simple: 4e failed. It didn't sell enough to justify its continued existance. It's not a battle between an old direction and a new direction, it's a question of will D&D keep being published, or won't it. Essentials was the 'keep being published' option. The alternative was not to keep printing hardcover books that not enough people were buying, the alternative was to shelve the line.
That's how it looks to this cynical old man, anyway.
The one thing you can find 'between the lines' here is simple: 4e failed. It didn't sell enough to justify its continued existance. It's not a battle between an old direction and a new direction, it's a question of will D&D keep being published, or won't it. Essentials was the 'keep being published' option. The alternative was not to keep printing hardcover books that not enough people were buying, the alternative was to shelve the line.
That just doesn't fit with other decisions they've made. The let the Star Wars license go becuase it doesnt' make enough money, but they plow more money into D&D because it doesn't make enough money?
Cynical old man is cynical.
I wonder if we're missing a more important issue. The sudden change in direction for D&D is troubling, because american corporations only suddenly change direction when things are really pretty bad.
Or... it's actually reassuring rather than troubling. Because big gaming companies usually release whole new product lines with a focus on new gamers when they're pretty confident with how things are going so far and see the potential for further expanding their customer base. If the suits at Hasbro considered D&D4e a failure, do you really think they'd have approved the massive investment of time and money that must have gone into developing the Essentials line? That's just silly. Suits generally get more tight-fisted with their company's money when things are bad.
The sign of 4e being considered a failure would be if things continued on with no significant changes and with gradually fewer and fewer new releases each month. Pretty much the exact opposite of what is actually happening, in other words. (Or, pretty much what is apparently happening with DDi, if you want an excuse to be cynical and pessimistic about something.)
I'm not a cynical old man, but I did used to work for a big gaming company, so... ;)
Well, that assumes that 2003 was a year of great failure, because it produced 3.5; also 2008, because it produced 4ed. All these collosal failures, and (last I checked) the Landmark building in Renton still has WotC as a tenant.
I agree about 2003, and for the same reason that 2010 is going to be the proof of FAIL.
I'll wait to see if Essential out lasts 3.5 to see what level of fail we are looking at, and for who.
I still hope everyone is enjoying the D&D of their choice.
Essentials is NOT 4.5.
Ought ten is a hard year for everyone, not just Wizards. The overall political climate combined with a Congress that seems to be flailing about doing everything but what is needed makes for a very poor business opportunity. Sales were down across the board, not just for a particular brand or company.
That Wizards is doing a major release of books to spur sales is fantastic and bodes well for this edition's future and for the brand. That some think it is anything like the previous system is foolish.
The last books for 3.5 broke the edition, making it munchkin powered to an extreme degree. A lot was said about a testing ground for 4th edition (part of that was the SaGa rules, which gave us the skills of trained vs suck). I think it was a last gasp before the axe fell, an extension while the various Licenses and contracts was allowed to lapse as Wizards took everything in house. That last year was fail not because of lagging sales, but because of shoddy product which resulted in the loss of sales.
TSR did this for far to long with kit books, binder MM pages and several other things. Some stuff was game breaking (like the Assassin kit) and other stuff simply wasn't worth getting. Sales suffered from the bloat of product, and TSR ended up DOA. Wizards saw history, and rushed out 4th when 3.5 was starting to turn into "Hackmaster."
Wizards has made some mistakes with the previous edition, though not as colosal as TSR, and I believe they learned the lessons from it. This isn't 4.5, and it isn't a sign of 5th edition doom. I look foward to the new product. With more choices, perhaps my group can take a fresh look at it.
1. Releasing more product at a faster rate.
We used to average one book a month and now we are seeing multiple releases. We are getting not only the campaign book, monster book and adventure for dark sun but Psionic Power this month. The essentials are coming out in clusters in following months. There is literally so much flow of product that i may no longer afford to get it all at the pace it is released now. Contrast this with the end of 3.5 when things petered off or, more appropriately, when SWSE died a slow death with releases spread farther and farther apart. A fast pace of releases is a huge sign of a healthy product line, especially when we've seen that WoTC slowly kills lines that are not successful.
2. Expansion and Diversification of the brand.
You know when an intellectual property is really popular and a company tries to cash in on the licence by making a ton of spin-off products? Lets see, we are getting a series of board games (oh yeah, thats ANOTHER release along side 4 books in one month) and the Gamma World 4E game which apparently is only the first in a series of products that are themed spin-offs of core DnD. It seems 4E is popular enough that they can afford to fool around with taking risks with niche products (Gamma World) and use the name to mooch other demographics (board gamers). Making a bunch of spin-off products that capitalize on a popular intellectual property is a sign that the IP is making money
I agree with thaX on this one.
Nobodies' doing well in this economy. The fact that Hasbro is even allowing WotC to do this, in spite of the bad economy just goes to show how successful 4E really is.
Also, it's not a new edition when Mearls specifically states he enjoys the synergy of the Tactical Warlord and the new Martial class kits. That he'd go out and say that shows that their purpose was integration, not segregation, from what has come before.
Which is what WotC has said from the get-go. We don't even know 10% of what Essentials is doing to 4E, because WotC isn't going to preview us so much that we wouldn't have to buy it. That would be poor marketing.
That said, WotC knows at least 97% of what Essentials is doing and will do to the game (the last 3% being what might be errata'd Rules Updated in the future). Why are we throwing temper-tantrums and calling them liars, as if we know more then them about their own game?
I know it's hard. But can't we just believe what we're told without claiming that the makers of the game we love are lying to us about it?
1. Releasing more product at a faster rate.
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That is the biggest problem with 4e. There is no research and development department, only a development and delete department. They are spitting out product so fast that they do not have time to play test new material properly.
The Martial Powers 2 book is a perfect example. Dust off your copy, if you bothered to buy one, and look at the first print date. It's on page two. Go ahead I'll wait... yep February 2010. Now look at the ranger power Throw and Stab it is just below Marauder's Rush. What an over powered combination they are together. Anyone who plays a few striker classes can see that the potential here is crazy. It did not take long before everyone saw how crazy this was except the development department, because they are to busy making new material to be change with the next errata. How long did it take for the DM's to say fix this and fix this fast. Only a few months at best. The funniest part is that the bigest offender in my opinion is not Throw and Stab, but Marauder's Rush. Nevertheless, there is sits another option for the already over powered rushers.
Windrise Ports took them a little longer, but still not long. With people downloading books (illegally) online, I'm not surprised that they are trying to squeeze every penny they can from people like me who have bought all the books as soon as they came out. I can look to my left right now and see at least $500 in books just for 4e. It would be more, but I stopped at MP2, with the exception of the Strategy Guide.
To summarize: Printing books just to add content without proper play test seems to me to be the actions of someone (i.e. a company) in desperation mode. In stead of 4e being a “great engine”it's turning into the play test group. I think this is a way to drive players/clients away from your business not gather them to it.
Windrise Ports took them a little longer, but still not long. With people downloading books (illegally) online, I'm not surprised that they are trying to squeeze every penny they can from people like me who have bought all the books as soon as they came out. I can look to my left right now and see at least $500 in books just for 4e. It would be more, but I stopped at MP2, with the exception of the Strategy Guide.
To summarize: Printing books just to add content without proper play test seems to me to be the actions of someone (i.e. a company) in desperation mode. In stead of 4e being a “great engine”it's turning into the play test group. I think this is a way to drive players/clients away from your business not gather them to it.
Really? I see $1150 in books alongside me, and I never bought any of the adventure modules or the Starter set or any tiles. I bought 3 boxes of miniatures total in my life – maybe adds about $50, and MAYBE some of my dice came from WotC sets. But I dunno. I have $1200 in products here from WotC alone.
And the minor problems are fewer and less important than what other systems put out. And more so, most are caught in errata. I don't see this as desperation mode at all. If they've managed to net $500 from you and $1200 from me, and think of how many other people they've net with similar things – if I bought all the adventure modules, it would probably be over $2000. There are people who buy all this stuff.
WotC's a business working for a major corporation. This is what they do. This is standard issue. There's always little errors.
And you know what? 4E, for the most part, is not broken. It's only broken when people TRY actively to break it. And most people don't do that. The point isn't to not produce any stellar options that could create cheese, it's to make it so that that sort of thing wouldn't normally come up. And they've gone out of their way to clarify most of those cheese incidents and broken elements to bring them into line.
I think they're doing quite well for themselves, frankly.
That is the biggest problem with 4e. There is no research and development department, only a development and delete department. They are spitting out product so fast that they do not have time to play test new material properly.
(snip)To summarize: Printing books just to add content without proper play test seems to me to be the actions of someone (i.e. a company) in desperation mode.
The thing is that the amount of balanced vs imbalanced material has about as much to do with how well 4E is actually doing as the price of milk.
First, there has been broken stuff since day 1 of 4E; the acutal percentage of unbalanced material has not increased since the first core books' release. Cascade of Blades, Orb Wizards, Rain of Blows, etc... it was all there and super broken right out of the box. Adventurer's Vault and Martial Power 1 had some of the more broken material in the game and they were in development before the edition was even released. By your logic, WotC was in "desperation mode" regarding 4E before the game was even released. That is obviously sort of ridiculous.
Second, WoTC is doing a far far better job at balancing their material now than they did last edition. You complain about Stab and Throw? In 3E, WoTC put out material that let people have indefinitley high ability scores and builds that literally let them have every spell in the game (Pun Pun). Characters could instantly kill anything in the MM before reaching epic, be immune to magic, turn into any creature and gain any ability, etc... A core wizard using core books could permanently become a gold dragon while clerics became huge outsiders. By your logic, WoTC was in a huge "desperation mode" throughout the entire lifespan of 3E because everything in the game was broken to bits. The fact that 3E lasted for 8 entire years, was immensely successful (as far as RPGs go) and that the company kept the license to put out a whole new edition shows us that this logic is flawed.
Third, like i said before, WoTC has shown a pattern of slowly spacing out releases when they plan on dropping line. When 3.5 was on its last legs, releases became farther and farther apart. When the original randomized DnD minis line died off it came at a slow pace. When Saga died, everyone saw it coming because releases where becoming rarer and rarer. We've seen how WoTC kills off product lines. Releasing more and more material is the exact opposite of how they kill lines and is exactly what they are doing with 4E.
Ultimately, the idea that the amount of unbalanced material has anything to with the line's health strikes me as completely bizarre. You're arguing that the increase in the volume of products released (and thus less playtesting) is because the products don't sell? Because if a business is making a product that doesn't sell well, the obvious practice is to produce even more of the product at a faster rate instead of cutting back the production of the product? Really?
History has shown us that WoTC doesn't follow this practice with product lines that don't sell.
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Ok fine, I don't see their books maybe they are in the black. Although from what I understand the big money is in Magic cards not DnD, but who cares either way. What your telling me is that 3.x was trash, but they still made money for 8 years. I bet they lost market share on that deal though, which can be much worse.
Nevertheless, you have to remember that there are two was to make money in any market. The first is to make a better product and sell it for top dollar (think European sports car). The second it to sell lots of product at a smaller profit margin even if it's not quite right (think Wal-mart). The second leads to more and more crap on the market, because of the tendency to cut corners. This tendency is turning out to be the New American Way, make it cheaper make it faster, do more with less. I think “do more with less” is the catch phrase for big business in first decade of the 21st century. My point is that if the trend continues the game will only get worse not better by flooding the market with new content.
Even worse then the books are the freebie, LFR mods. Many are cake walks, but there are some if played as written are total TPK's. The problem is unless you have DMed the mod. Before, you do not know if you are going to be TPK'ed, if you play the table at level. Simply because one DM will run as written and the next will see the imbalance and modify it (sometimes into another cake walk). However it seems to be, at least in my experience, that most DM's never read the mod. themselves and run it off the cuff. But crap mods are another thread I'm sure. The only reason I even mention it is because it points it's ugly finger back to improper play testing.
Even though you and I bought the books, I have heard of many people who just download them for free off the internet. Yes, I'm sure the 20+ DnD gaming books (not complete stories or adventures) cost me much more then $500, but I don't like to think of how much money I have wasted, yes wasted. Personally I like the feel of a real book in my hands, and tabbing and highlighting computer versions are not the same. I asked the owner of my local gaming store what the trade-in value was on DnD books. He said nothing, everyone is just downloading them off the internet for free. Theft is theft in my book, but I guess I'm just old fashioned that way.
You say 3.x was broken and broken bad. Mark my words, if the company continues to just print content flooding the market hoping for quick sales 4.x will be even worse. Of course this does open up a new magazine possibility. Lets see now, there is Dungeon Magazine, Dragon Magazine and now the ever famous This Month's Screw ups Magazine coming soon to a computer near you.
Well it is late and I feel like I am just rambling on at this point, so good night.
Now rules may be better but all new stuff is indiferent for me. I can´t realise the diferences of type of powers about chaman and druid..
Why cleric and runepriest have got different styles? and seeker+druid, warlock+socerer bard+artificer? I can´t find those diferences!!!! Their background isn´t equal, but I see powers and... I feel indiference.
What if I buy Essentials now but I want play gnomes and warforged, or barbarians and shamans PCs?
I have bought rpg books to get inspiration to create new stories and feel my characters (created by me) are like from a Larry Elmore´s picture what come to life, not like a famer-bot PC from a online videogame.
Please. If I have got 35 euros it´s more worthwhile for me buying some videogame that a rpg book to have got more hours of entertaiment. I can´t afford new books time after time about identical matter (undead, dragons, psionic, magic item...).
I feel being truer dungeons looter when I explore, and solve puzzles in tombs from sims: world adventure that rpg videogame like warcraft or final fantasy.
Excuse me if my English isn´t enough clear.
Ok fine, I don't see their books maybe they are in the black. Although from what I understand the big money is in Magic cards not DnD, but who cares either way. What your telling me is that 3.x was trash, but they still made money for 8 years. I bet they lost market share on that deal though, which can be much worse.
I'm not saying 3E was trash, just that they released tons and tons of material that was more broken than in 4E. Even so, i've seen more than one person in the business post on message boards talking about how since they took over DnD and released 3E, WoTC has owned an untouchably massive market share as far as RPGs go. I believe i've actually read Erik Mona, the publisher of Paizo, say that WoTC's market share with DnD is nearly as big as all other RPGs combined...and he competes with them. Releasing non-broken material doesn't seem to neccessarily have anything to do with making an RPG successful.
Nevertheless, you have to remember that there are two was to make money in any market. The first is to make a better product and sell it for top dollar (think European sports car). The second it to sell lots of product at a smaller profit margin even if it's not quite right (think Wal-mart). The second leads to more and more crap on the market, because of the tendency to cut corners. This tendency is turning out to be the New American Way, make it cheaper make it faster, do more with less. I think “do more with less” is the catch phrase for big business in first decade of the 21st century. My point is that if the trend continues the game will only get worse not better by flooding the market with new content.
You analogy is flawed because there is no "European sports car" of the RPG world. I challenge you to find one RPG out there that has even close to the level of complexity and content mass as 4E DnD but is actually better balanced.
Even worse then the books are the freebie, LFR mods.
What? You know that most of those are written by players, not WoTC, right? This has no bearing on the developers having time to playtest anything, the rushing out of content, how well DnD is doing, or anything really.
You say 3.x was broken and broken bad. Mark my words, if the company continues to just print content flooding the market hoping for quick sales 4.x will be even worse.
So....3.x had a ton of stuff that was more broken than 4E but was a huge success and if they keep putting out content for 4E, which is more balanced, then sales will be even worse. That doesn't make a lick of sense.
Those who want to use the old entrance likely have already bought it.
PHBI isn't necessary for my group due to the character builder. My group plays on Maptool, and only 3 of us (out of 8) actually own a copy of the book.
Essentials is a different entrance into 4th edition. Wizards is merely closing the old entrance. They both lead to the same game, except the Essentials entrance has all the errata and such built into it (well, and some boring mundane classes, they dont deserve the term martial).
Their not closing the old entrance. You could still pick up the PHB1/MM1/DMG1 and play.
Or, you could pick up the rules compendium and the CB and play.
You analogy is flawed because there is no "European sports car" of the RPG world.
Just a note on analogies. Analogies are not arguments. They never, ever prove anything. Their sole and only purpose is to communicate an idea through comparison. Whether or not they are flawed can only be measured in terms of whether or not they successfully communicate the idea, not whether or not they prove anything.
So pretty much every time someone says "your analogy is flawed because..." they just demonstrated the analogy is not flawed because they are showing they understood it enough to point out the areas in falls short.
Any time you argue against an analogy like it's an argument, you prove you have successfully received the communication that the analogy was there to transmit. After all, you can't point out it's flaws unless you understand it enough to do so.
Any time you argue against an analogy like it's an argument, you prove you have successfully received the communication that the analogy was there to transmit. After all, you can't point out it's flaws unless you understand it enough to do so.
Doesn't the last sentence here undermine everything else you were saying in your post though?
"You can't point out it's flaws unless you understand it enough to do so." So i understand the analogy and thus I can point out its flaws, right? I can recognize that it has flaws. Doesn't that follow directly from your final statement?
Any time you argue against an analogy like it's an argument, you prove you have successfully received the communication that the analogy was there to transmit. After all, you can't point out it's flaws unless you understand it enough to do so.
Doesn't the last sentence here undermine everything else you were saying in your post though?
"You can't point out it's flaws unless you understand it enough to do so." So i understand the analogy and thus I can point out its flaws, right? I can recognize that it has flaws. Doesn't that follow directly from your final statement?
Right. But that's not making an argument either. That's just refining an analogy.
In the case above, someone made some analogy about RPGs and European cars. They were trying to communicate something about production values or luxury or features or something. Good for them. They probably made the analogy in connection to some larger point.
The only appropriate responses to an analogy is to either ask for clarification if you don't understand it or to acknowledge that you understood it.
Another problem is that as well as the people responding to analogies acting as if they're arguments is that the person making them often does too. As if saying "RPGs are like European Cars" actually proves anything.
It's just a nitpick, but analogies are illustrations to help understanding, not arguments. People will often make analogies and then act as if they proved something with them. And then almost like clockwork, someone will come along as say "That's a bad analogy because..." as if it somehow defeats the persons non-argument in the first place.
If you ever find yourself saying or typing "that's a bad analogy because" you may want to stop and instead deal with the content of their argument rather than their BS attempt to prove something by analogy. Trying to prove or disprove things by analogy is a big waste of time. It's like working with wood to try to make a house out of bricks.
(you'll also notice I purposely made a very vulnerable analogy there. Wood is often used in construction methods that use bricks, but bringing that up is pointless as the analogy is just meant to show that arguing with analogies is like using one substance when you want the product to be made out of another-- ie, a waste of time).
Though people really enjoy arguing on the internet with analogies. So if you're having fun, by all means continue. Just understand that demolishing an analogy doesn't actually do anything for the underlying argument it was illustrating.
Okay. Probably because it wasn't an analogy, just an industry that uses a certain business model.
So instead of attacking a non-existent analogy, you could instead talk about the quality vs quantity business model that was the actual subject of that whole paragraph.
That said, I think the Essentials product line is going to be good and I think it's going to do well.
Even if its not an "analogy" the comparison is deeply flawed for a couple of reasons.
So it does look like it is one big analogy. Walmart vs. Mercedez Benz as Wotc vs ???
So we have him saying that WotC is somehow taking the quantity over quality approach.
I don't think that's true. The quality of play of 4E is excellent. The Essentials line even includes a Rules Compendium where all the errata gets seemlessly put into the core rules. What excellent support. Better than a European Car maker in my mind. They wish they could so seamlessly upgrade their cards like Wizards can with DDI. But they can't, because the product is just so different.
His original point also has something to do with playtesting. But here he fails to understand one of the truly beautiful things about 4E. The underlying math is sound. The designers know what a power of a certain type and level should do in the game. They have baselines. As long as they keep within those baselines for each level/ability type/etc., the game hums along quite nicely. Less playtesting is needed in this model than when you're designing everything as it's own separate rules system that is not connected with the leve/encounter/advancement system.
So yeah, his european car analogy might communicate that he things WotC is not conducting business like they are, but he's wrong. They've done some underlying engineering that makes 4E far more robust than he's giving them credit for.
Hasbro hasn't made any negative statements in their financials about WotC at all. It produces revenue for them. There is simply no objective data to support his assertions about the current market weakness of Wizards of the Coast.
I wonder if we're missing a more important issue. The sudden change in direction for D&D is troubling, because american corporations only suddenly change direction when things are really pretty bad.
The one thing you can find 'between the lines' here is simple: 4e failed. It didn't sell enough to justify its continued existance. It's not a battle between an old direction and a new direction, it's a question of will D&D keep being published, or won't it. Essentials was the 'keep being published' option. The alternative was not to keep printing hardcover books that not enough people were buying, the alternative was to shelve the line.
That's how it looks to this cynical old man, anyway.
I don't know if it was failure, or the future was not looking bright to those counting the beans. I think after the PHB3, they were going to be hard pressed to keep putting out new and meaningful books that were worth the while.
So they made some staff cuts, shifted their direction, and are now revamping the product to be more assessable to more folks, and easier on the wallet.
You can get the Essentials stuff on Amazon for around 13 bucks. Now its not hardcover, but that's around what I used to pay for my old AD&D hardcovers.
I would imagine that they dropped Starwars because they didn't want to renew the license, and had no desire to move it into the 4th ed era. And why should they? The movies are done, and they have enough of their own Sci material they can use, or reclaim.
If gamma world takes off, I'd love to see them reaquire Star Frontiers and recreate that.
I do agree what someone in one of these threads suggested, that the coming of Essentials is completely submarining their desire to buy anything that is released pre-Essentials.
I just read the August preview's and didn't give a rat's furry tuckus. Granted, I'm not a fan of Dark Sun, so there is that.
If gamma world takes off, I'd love to see them reaquire Star Frontiers and recreate that.
I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they put out Star Frontiers next year. After all, they've told us point blank that Gamma World is only the first in a series of theme worlds they plan on putting out and SF would be right up there with GW as a classic DnD spin-off.
Sometimes I wonder why I persist in reading the Future releases forum. Most of this forum consists of rumor, hear say, baseless speculation, and accustations toward Wizards of the Coast made by alarmist conspiracy theorists.
Wizards of the Coast is a for profit enterprise which goes out of business if it fails to turn a profit, and seeking to earn a profit doesn't qualify a corporation to be called evil. True evil takes a lot of work, ask Hitler and Stalin. While you definitely label these two men as evil, you couldn't label them as lazy.
The point I'm trying to make in my own inarticulate and clumsy manner is that sometimes things really aren't that bad, and Wizards of the Coast will not take all your old, "error-filled" core books from you in order to make you buy the essentials products. It might turn out the essential products are actually quality material.
Hmmm, I agree, evil = overstated. Less than honest about the direction the game may be going...well in light of this rumor, I might be inclined to think it fuels such "conspiracy theorists".
I no longer think so many people mind that the game has been/is being revised, or if they did, many have either moved on or gotten over it. At this point, much of the angst comes from WoTC just not calling a spade a spade, or being very suspiciously nit picky and splitting hairs about how much of a revision amounts to a new edition or even a reboot and if backwards compatability negates that. If the end result is that Essentials is a new edition or reboot of 4E in every way but in name only...why not just say so???
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck....
You get the idea.
Me personally, I just hope WoTC gets it right with Essentials, and solidifies 4E's bout of Sybil-esque dissociative identity disorder and returns back to having a clue of what it is trying to be. Also Essentials will present the game with a set of books that gaming groups can recommend new player's buy, instead of the limbo it hangs in now having only the flawed current core books for people to try to get into the hobby with. Here's hoping WoTC can hit a homerun with Essentials.
If gamma world takes off, I'd love to see them reaquire Star Frontiers and recreate that.
Just for the record, I don't know how much "reacquiring" they'd have to do. One alternative in d20 Future was the Star*Law campaign, which was Star Frontiers in all but name. Even all the classic aliens were present.
I imagine the bulk of the hard work of modernizing 4e system to account for a more futuristic setting will already be finished by the time they release Gamma World. Although in truth, there was probably a fair bit they were able to lift from their previous design and development work for Star Wars Saga Edition.
And quite a lot of that would be pretty easily portable to Star Frontiers.
I no longer think so many people mind that the game has been/is being revised, or if they did, many have either moved on or gotten over it. At this point, much of the angst comes from WoTC just not calling a spade a spade, or being very suspiciously nit picky and splitting hairs about how much of a revision amounts to a new edition or even a reboot and if backwards compatability negates that. If the end result is that Essentials is a new edition or reboot of 4E in every way but in name only...why not just say so???
I think the issue is that if, as they claim, 2 players could show up with a PHB Warlord and Ranger (or a PHB warlock and PHB2 Bard) and join in an Essentials campaign as long as they keep up with the Errata, then Essentials is really no more a "new edition" than was PHB 2 or PHB3.
Is it brand new packaging with a different emphasis? Clearly. But I don't see them denying that part ANYWHERE. Basically, Esesentials is more of a line and branding change than it is a design one. Yes, they're continuing to offer both new designs and new takes on classes, just as they have since 4e started. Other than presentation, the primary difference is that Essentials is taking a chance to revisit some of the same general concepts that WotC has already covered (albeit with new builds), rather than sticking strictly to totally new concepts that haven't been covered. They're also using a new intro as an way to release updated versions of some things in print that would otherwise be hard to justify.
At least, that's my take on it.
btw if they truly wanted to start anew they wouldn't have gone the way of subclass but just recreated the fighter, instead they go with subclasses and leave the core classes alone (and this should be enough of an hint...
) As long as the continuing eratta posts can be used to make the original printings up to date with the most current rules, then it is not a "4.5" Even if they were to publish a new printing with all the eratta worked into the new printing, they wouldn't be a "4.5"; they would simply be a convenience for those of us who enjoy using books for reference. The only way it becomes a "4.5" is if the eratta cannot be used to bring the existing books into line with the latest rules; thus forcing us to purchase new core/campaign books.
Precisely. That was the mortal sin of 3.5, so to speak, not simply adding more stuff and changing a few things.
Sorry, I guess I've been watching that show a little too much. But it is great fun!
As long as the continuing eratta posts can be used to make the original printings up to date with the most current rules, then it is not a "4.5" Even if they were to publish a new printing with all the eratta worked into the new printing, they wouldn't be a "4.5"; they would simply be a convenience for those of us who enjoy using books for reference. The only way it becomes a "4.5" is if the eratta cannot be used to bring the existing books into line with the latest rules; thus forcing us to purchase new core/campaign books.
Excellent point.
I think you've just expressed the only truly logical litmus test on whether or not it's a new edition.
I am incredibly disappointed that WotC is going back on their promise of not releasing a 4.5. Yes, its true that a team of ninjas aren't going to take away your 4.0 books. But every edition they release fragments the community more.
what 4.5? there is no 4.5
they are not publishing a phb1 v. 4.5 they are releasing new build with a new build mechanics (sub-classes) and sub-classes can also change the role of the parent class (see today ampersand and the fighter sub-classes that is a martial striker)
As long as the continuing eratta posts can be used to make the original printings up to date with the most current rules, then it is not a "4.5" Even if they were to publish a new printing with all the eratta worked into the new printing, they wouldn't be a "4.5"; they would simply be a convenience for those of us who enjoy using books for reference. The only way it becomes a "4.5" is if the eratta cannot be used to bring the existing books into line with the latest rules; thus forcing us to purchase new core/campaign books.
That's pretty fair. The thing that enraged so many people about 3.5 wasn't how much of a change it was, it was that you had to re-buy books that still felt comparatively 'new.'
Essentials certainly dodges that complaint on several levels, as does being liberal with errata instead of standing buy mistakes until the fixes can be collecte into a new book you can sell.
In that sense 4e is being managed/marketted better than 3.x was.
Of course, you could errata D&D 4e until it became RuneQuest, and still claim it wasn't a new edition, so that rationale /could/ ware thin eventually.
I am incredibly disappointed that WotC is going back on their promise of not releasing a 4.5. Yes, its true that a team of ninjas aren't going to take away your 4.0 books. But every edition they release fragments the community more.
WoTC doesn't want to fragment the community either. The more people playing the same edition, the better.
WoTC doesn't want to fragment the community either. The more people playing the same edition, the better.
The better for all of us because the support becomes better. Even from third party publishers.
lol mananation isn't even a reliable magic info site, why is the D&D community taking it seriously?
Because many in the D&D community upholds Chicken Little as the greatest role model ever.
lol mananation isn't even a reliable magic info site, why is the D&D community taking it seriously?
Because many in the D&D community upholds Chicken Little as the greatest role model ever.
I personally think that Robot Chicken is a better choice for role playing, though not role modelling.
robotchicken.wikia.com/wiki/RPG_Reversal