The pictures: http://www.hordelings.com/forums/postView.php?post_id=177811&viewPage=0#177811
The one showing the Avenger (on the right side): http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k31/maijstral/DDXP09016-1.jpg
So where do you think the class might be going? I must say, I'm surprised by the cloth armor. Even for a striker, this probably means some alternative AC boosting ability. The 40 hit points at 3rd level put him at about average, while weapon expertise with spears suggests a melee role.
I'm happy!! :bounce:
I just can't wait to see their extra damage feature. I still can't find any other pictures. Someone must have taken a picture of the entire sheet, c'mon people!
15 starting hit points
+13 constitution score
+12 for leveling up
Basically what a fighter gets. Of course, they probably don't use constitution for much, and they only seem to get cloth armor proficiency.
Could be because he's a half-orc. I also notice a sorta 'marking' mechanic.
Wait a second, where do you see that? In the image I saw there's a corner so small I can't get nothing but ability scores, hit points, feats, skills, and the weapon...
EDIT: OOOOooooOOooohhHHhh!! HERE! IT'S NEW! AND POWERS (A pity it gets nearly unreadable when zoomed)
I can make out a few interesting things...
He's got "Armor of Faith", which is a +3 bonus to AC when wearing light armor and no shield... my guess is that this is related to his Wisdom modifier.
"Oath of Enmity" seems to be their version of Curse/Quarry/etc. I can make out "When you make a melee against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you..."
The dailies making him summon "aspects" seem pretty similar to the Warden's ones, giving encounter-lasting bonuses once used. Very good.
This Avenger was the class I was more worried about but is becoming one of my personal favorites with all these news.
You focus your wrath on a single foe, giving your attacks against it extraordinary accuracy.
Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action Close Burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst.
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either resuilts. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, the power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and use the lower result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack either.
If an effect lets you reroll an attack roll and you rolled twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
---
I think.
From what I can tell, the avenger has hints of defender mixed in.
"Oath of Enmity" seems to be their version of Curse/Quarry/etc. I can make out "When you make a melee against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you..."
"... You make two attack rolls and use either result."
Then I don't understand anything.
t's a very mystical type of one on one duelism. Sequestering Strike is clearly made to trigger this, teleporting both you and the target.
It seems you are made for one vs. one combat, isolated from the rest. Again VERY ORIGINAL.
EDIT: Thanks Ekio, how the hell could you read that? :D
EDIT: Thanks Ekio, how the hell could you read that? :D
Magic eyes! :D
Want me to get the rest of it?
Magic eyes! :D
Want me to get the rest of it?
lemme be the first to say "Hell yeah!"
Bond of Pursuit Avenger Attack 1
With your attack, you utter a promise to follow your enemy if it tries to escape.
At-Will * Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature.
Attack: +8 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 4 damage. If the target doesn't end its next turn adjacent to you, you can shift 4 squares as a free action, and you must end that shift closest to the target.
Overwhelming Strike Avenger Attack 1
As you attack, your manuever around your foe, forcing it to move with you.
At-Will * Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack +8 vs. AC
Hit: 1d10 + 4 damage. You shift 1 square and slide the target 1 square into the space you occupied.
Oath of Enmity
etc.
Channel Divinity: Abjure Undead Avenger Feature
You send a brilliant ray of radiant power on an undead foe, compelling it to stagger toward you.
Encounter * Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Close Burst 5
Target: One undead creature within burst.
Attack: +4 vs. Will
Hit: 1d10 + 3 radiant damage, and you pull the target 4 squares. The target is also immobilized until the end of your next turn.
Miss: Half damage, and you pull the target 1 square.
Channel Divinity: Divine Guidance Avenger Feature
You heed your deity's guidance to an ally's attack against your foe.
Encounter * Divine
Immediate Interrupt Close burst 10.
Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you makes an attack roll against your oath of enmity target.
Target: The triggering ally.
Effect: The target makes a second attack roll and uses either result.
Furious Assault Half-Orc Racial Power
Your monstrous wrath burns inside you, giving strength to your attack.
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You hit an enemy.
Effect: This attack deals 1[W] extra damage if its a weapon attack or 1d8 extra damage if it isn't.
Whirlwind Charge Avenger Attack 1
As you charge your foe, divine light surrounds you in a protective nimbus then erupts at your foe.
Encounter * Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack +8 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 4 damage.
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack. If you charge, you gain a +4 bonus to AC against opportunity attacks you provoke while moving to the target.
Resonant Escape Avenger Utility 2
A quick prayer as you dodge calls forth divine power, which carries you a short distance away.
Encounter * Divine, Teleportation
Immediate Reaction Personal
Trigger: An enemy hits or misses you with a melee attack.
Effect: You teleport 3 squares.
Sequestering Strike Avenger Attack 3
Your attack slices into your foe and through the fabric of space, hurtling both you and the foe a short distance away.
Encounter * Divine, Teleportation, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack +8 vs. AC
Hit: 2d10 + 4 damage, and you teleport the target 2 squares. You then teleport to a space adjacent to the target.
Aspect of Might Avenger Attack 1
You strike a crippling blow against your foe as divine light bolsters you.
Daily * Divine, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon.
Target: One creature.
Attack: +8 vs. AC
Hit: 3d10 + 8 damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter, you gain a +5 power bonus to Athletics checks, a +2 power bonus to speed, and a +2 power bonus to teh damage rolls of melee attacks.
And then an Acidic longspear. (Adventurer's Vault)
Edit> correction +3 is impossible with +2 prof (longspear) and +1 Spear and Weapon Expertise. +4 as well.
Not accounting for Attributes its +3 (Longspear is +2 prof, +1 from level)+1 for weapon+1for weapon expertise so +5 minimum. It looks like +8 to me, which fits with dex/wis..
Totally digging the half-orc racial encounter.
That was my thought too.
Edit: Beat me to it...
Call Spirit Companion Shaman Feature
Your soul reaches out to your spirit friend, which faithfully appears at your side.
At-Will * Conjuration, Primal
Minor Action Close burst 20
Effect: You conjure your spirit companion in an unoccupied square in the burst. The spirit lasts until you fall unconscious or until you dismiss it as a minor action. The spirit occupies 1 square. Enemies cannot move through its space, but allies can. When you take a move action, you can also move the spirit a number of squares equal to your speed.
The spirit can be targeted by melee or ranged attacks, although it lacks hit points. If a single melee or ranged attack deals 11 or more damage on the spirit, the spirit disappears, and you take 6 damage. Otherwise, the spirit is unaffected by the attack.
Spirit's Fangs Shaman Feature
When an enemy drops its guard, your spirit companion leaps on it, claws and fangs bared.
At-Will * Implement, Primal, Spirit
Opportunity Action Melee spirit 1
Trigger: An enemy leaves a square adjacent to your spirit companion without shifting.
Target: The triggering enemy.
Attack: +6 vs. Reflex.
Hit: 1d10 + 5 damage.
Defending Strike Shaman Attack 1
The spirit companion strikes a foe, drawing energy from the enemy and using the energy into a protective shield(?).
At-Will * Implement, Primal, Spirit
Standard Action Melee spirit 1
Target: One creature.
Attack: +6 vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage. Until the end of your next turn, you and your allies gian a +1 power bonus while adjacent to your spirit companion.
Stalker's Strike Shaman Attack 1
As your spirit companion claws at your foe, the spirit is filled with predatory(?) fury, becoming a greater threat to your enemies.
At-Will * Implement, Primal, Spirit
Standard Action Melee Spirit 1
Target: One creature.
Attack: +6 vs. Fortitude. If the target is bloodied, you gain a +1 bonus to the attack roll.
Hit: 1d10 + 5 damage. Until the end of your next turn, your spirit companion can flank with you and your allies.
Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes Deva Racial Power
Lifelike(?) memories of your previous lives lend insight to aid you.
Encouner
No Action(?) Personal
Trigger: You make an attack roll, a saving throw, a skill check, or an any(?) check and dislike the result.
Effect: You add 1d8 to the triggering roll.
I was getting discouraged from the previews for the other PHB2 classes but then they come out with this. I am seriously blown away. The whole striker/defender hybrid (Censure of Pursuit actually keeps enemies close to you!) is probably the best use of the combat role system yet. Also, I am really glad to see the way they have played with the role mechanics, rather than just giving him +1d6 if he isolates the enemy or something. The flavor of a divine agent who singles out his foes before dispatching them with divine fervor may just make this my favorite 4e class.
I'm so happy.
Healing Spirit Shaman Feature
You call to the spirits on behalf of a wounded ally, healing wounds.
Encounter (Special) * Healing, Primal
Minor Action Close burst 5
Target: You or one ally in burst.
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge. If the target does so, one ally adjacent to your spirit companion other than the target regains 1d6 hit points.
Special: You can use this power twice per encounter, but only once per round.
Twin Panthers Shaman Attack 1
Two panther spirits leap on your foes, and the panthers channel their predatory instincts through your spirit companion as that(?) it approaches nearby enemies.
Encounter * Implement, Ritual
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature.
Attack: +6 vs. Reflex (+9 against a bloodied target)
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage. Until the end of your enxt turn, you and your allies have combat advantage when making melee attacks against any enemy adjacent to your spirit companion.
Effect: Make that attack one more time against the same target or a different one.
Bonds of the Clan Shaman Utility 2
You take on a portion of your ally's injury.
Encounter * Primal
Immediate Interrupt Ranged 10
Trigger: An ally within 10 squares of you takes damage.
Target: The triggering ally.
Effect: You and the target each take half of the damage.
Rimefire Spirit Shaman Attack 3
A spirit of ice and flame freezes and burns your foe, and the spirit's energies emanate from your spirit companion, making nearby enemies vulnerate to further attacks.
Encounter * Cold, Fire, Implement, Primal
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature.
Attack: +6 vs. Will
Hit: 2d6 + 5 cold and fire damage. Until the end of your next turn, any enemy adjacent to your spirit companion gains vulnerable 5 cold and vulnerable 5 fire.
Cleansing Wind of the North Shaman Attack 1
You call on the spirits of the frigid north to bite into your enemies and to carry your allies' ills.
Daily * Cold, Implement, Primal
Standard Action Close blast 5
Target: Each enemy in blast.
Attack: +6 vs. Fortitude.
Hit: 1d10 + 5 cold damage.
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: Each ally in the blast makes a saving throw with a +5 power bonus.
+1 Summer Growth Totem Totem Level 3+
Summer brings growth and the primal energy channeled through this item helps spawn vines that hinder your foes.
Critical: +1d6 damage, and the target is restrained until the end of your next turn.
Power (Daily): Minor Action. Each square within 5 squares of you is difficult terrain for your enemies until the end of your next turn.
---
I am PSYCHED for the shaman. :D!
Furious Assault Half-Orc Racial Power
Your monstrous wrath burns inside you, giving strength to your attack.
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You hit an enemy.
Effect: This attack deals 1[W] extra damage if its a weapon attack or full damage if it isn't.
Wow, wait, what?! That's ridiculous, that can't be right. Am I not understanding this right? Because it looks pretty much like an auto-crit to me, maximizing your damage. That seems completely lopsided to be significantly better for implement-users.
Wow, wait, what?! That's ridiculous, that can't be right. Am I not understanding this right? Because it looks pretty much like an auto-crit to me, maximizing your damage. That seems completely lopsided to be significantly better for implement-users.
AHH! You're right!
It reads "or extra 1d8 damage if it isn't." Sorry about that.
As a side note-
It reads "or extra 1d8 damage if it isn't."
Thank goodness.
On the other hand, that some of the powers lack the 'spirit' keyword leads me to believe that it's like the druid ... you can make a druid that focusses as heavily, or as weakly, on Wild Shape as you like. It seems you may be able to do the same thing with the spirit sidekick.
If this is the case, I can live with it. I don't know what it is, but so far, every class in PHB2 that I can think of has had the reaction of 'wow, this is pretty cool, except for this ONE THING that bugs the crap out of me'.
Plus, I'm pretty sure the requirement of the spirit companion means one beautiful thing: the multiclass feat actually gives you the spirit companion! Well, only when using the healing I guess, but still it makes for very very flavorful characters this way... I hope to be right.
The shaman's spirit companion looks like it has some major drawbacks. 11 damage is not hard to do ... theoretically, that number increases as the character levels, either with a half-level or +1/level modifier, or by tier, or else that thing's gonna die (again) repeatedly.
That part's REALLY hard to read. It might not be that number exactly... I'm not sure.
That part's REALLY hard to read. It might not be that number exactly... I'm not sure.
Plus, remember the numbers are pre-crunched. It's 11 (?) damage at 3rd level, it surely scales.
Look, if the enemy who did 11 damage wasn't attacking the spirit, it would be attacking your party members. If it hits the spirit and does less than 11 damage, it really does zero damage. If it does 11 or more, the spirit dies, and the shaman takes 6, which is still better than a party member taking 11+. Plus the spirit can't be affected by status effects, and you can just re summon the spirit next round for a minor action.
In a very roundabout way, its like preventing damage.
Poseph- check out the full barbarian playtest, if you can. Some of the barbarian's rage effects are sickeningly good. Like automatically knocking enemies prone without an action for the rest of the encounter.
I'm not commenting on the power of the barbarian at all, some barbarian builds can kick out some serious DPR, at higher levels, and I know that a lot of the powers are really, really good.
@ the rage you mentioned: The devs have stated that that rage is too powerful, and they will be modifying it. This was in the same article in which they talked about a light armor incentive and the extra damage talked on to the at-wills. (When they talked about that last part, I guess I just got my hopes up.)
Plus, remember the numbers are pre-crunched. It's 11 (?) damage at 3rd level, it surely scales.
Could it possibly be healing surge value + half your level + either Constitution or Charisma modifier (as those are the only ones with +2)?
Shaman looks cool, Avenger looks very cool.
The Avenger is an awesome new take on a Striker, and I ADORE the Shaman (especially the interesting way he heals). This makes me feel really good.
... Then I look at the Barbarian. Not much has changed ... well, nothing has changed. Maybe they are just using the playtest version, but I think that would be silly of them. It depresses me when I think about how much feedback I gave and all the feedback I heard people giving on the Forums. They really don't listen sometimes.
I understand, of course. They have some sentimental ties to how the Barbarian is structured (See pg. 59 of Dragon 369), but I still find the loss of play time dedicated to raging tragic. They can (and do) excuse it all they want, but I think time will tell how horrid an oversight that truly was.
With the Artificer, we heard about real progress, with WotC listening to us and making changes, but the Barbarian was not a true playtest. This was a ploy to make us as attached to the Barbarian as the devs are. So that we would say, when we looked at the Barbarian, "I helped make that."
Don't fool yourselves. You did no such thing. WotC made it exactly as they wanted: a keepsake, useless as an enormous statue, and weighing just as heavily on Fourth Edition. In the end, we will see that the Barbarian has become only a pretty picture on WotC's wall, reminding them how their precious "black button" came into being.
Don't worry too hard, though. It would be nieve of me to believe that WotC could change anything at this point. It's printed, friends, and wasting plenty of paper before we can even dismiss it as obsolete.
Will there be Barbarians? Of course, but when PHB3 arrives on the shelves, don't expect PCs to ever look back. There will be diehards, yes, but the Bard had diehards too. Perhaps those diehards can save the Barbarian in 5th Edition just as the Bard's saved him in 4th.
You can say that there will always be nay-sayers for certain classes, but I'll say one thing: I'm sure not hearing negativity about the Avenger yet.
Well then, WotC, I hope you feel bad about what you did. We understand that you do, but, like responsible adults, it's time to clean your mess up. That's what eratta is for. Hop to it!
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Oath of Enmity Avenger Feature
You focus your wrath on a single foe, giving your attacks against it extraordinary accuracy.
Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action Close Burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst.
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either resuilts.
Wow, if people thought that Righteous Rage of Tempus is strong with cleric/paladins, I can only say it will get much worse once a real striker starts using it :D
Is really tha Avenger a new Striker class?
All the things we have seen seem to point in the direction of Defender as primary role. Let me explain:
- Has HP as all other Defenders (except Warden, who has more).
- Has a feature that grants a bonus to AC (same as Swordmage).
- Has also a feature that makes it great in a one-to-one duel (same as Paladin).
- Doesn´t have any mean to do extra damage.
- And also the powers, Bond of Pursuit grants the kind of stickiness one can expect from a defender, and the same goes with Sequestering Strike.
Thinking about it, I think the Avenger will be a new Defender, not a new Striker. There are other considerations:
- Avenger has never ever been confirmed a Striker. There was told there will be a Striker in a different way, but it can be either the great-waepon-wielding barbarian or the close-blast sorcerer.
- With the last days revelations of the Sorcerer as a Striker and not a Controller is even more posible that the Avenger doesn't end being a Striker.
What do you think?
1. There is no mark abilitie
2. Someone calculated the At-Will Damage of Rangers and Avengers to be equal.
Remember, while the Avenger doesn't have a bonus damage ability, getting to roll to hit twice is a huge boost to your expected damage. That turns a 50% miss chance into a 25% miss chance.
He's got "Armor of Faith", which is a +3 bonus to AC when wearing light armor and no shield... my guess is that this is related to his Wisdom modifier.
I hope it's a flat bonus. If it's really Wis Mod, his AC will be 55-56 by the time he's level 30.
My guess is that Shield of Faith is a flat bonus, and that Wisdom is his attack stat, but I could be wrong, obviously.
I hope it's a flat bonus. If it's really Wis Mod, his AC will be 55-56 by the time he's level 30.
My guess is that Shield of Faith is a flat bonus, and that Wisdom is his attack stat, but I could be wrong, obviously.
I guess it's a flat bonus. We had the same speculation upon seeing the premade swordmage, who incidentally had a 16 Int to go with his +3 AC mod and immediately made people conlcude that the warding would be equal to the Int-mod
Personally I kind of hope Dex is the attack stat- not for any mechanical reason, just because running into melee with little to no armour on seems less than wise.
I don't believe that Dex will be the attack stat. Otherwise his AC would equal that of defenders with plate and light shield (like the swordmage who has warding plus an AC-stat as his attack-stat, but the swordmage is a defender).
With Dex not being the attack stat but getting a +3 warding bonus his AC will be equal to slightly better than the other strikers ACs yet not be above defender AC
I don't believe that Dex will be the attack stat. Otherwise his AC would equal that of defenders with plate and light shield (like the swordmage who has warding plus an AC-stat as his attack-stat, but the swordmage is a defender).
Furthermore, if SoF is indeed a flat bonus and if dex is his attack stat then he has no real reason to have that 16 wis.
It wouldn't be the first time that a pregen character was poorly built, of course...
... Then I look at the Barbarian. Not much has changed ... well, nothing has changed. Maybe they are just using the playtest version, but I think that would be silly of them. It depresses me when I think about how much feedback I gave and all the feedback I heard people giving on the Forums. They really don't listen sometimes.
Remember, we're only seeing the statblock expression of the class, not the class rules themselves. For all we know, the at-wills could have a line saying something like "Special: characters who take this power through multiclassing do only [W]+Str damage."
Also, there's at least one change that I noticed. Howling strike doesn't allow the barbarian to ignore OAs when charging while raging like it used to. Now it just adds +2 to speed when charging while raging.
What I find disappointing is that their AC is still dismally low. I don't understand how they got an AC of 17 though: +3 hide, +1 magic hide enhancement bonus, +1 level bonus, +1 dex = 16.
What I find disappointing is that their AC is still dismally low. I don't understand how they got an AC of 17 though: +3 hide, +1 magic hide enhancement bonus, +1 level bonus, +1 dex = 16.
maybe they add a diffrint mod...so instead of dex str, or Con, or Wis or something...is there a +2 score???
Wow ...
The Avenger is an awesome new take on a Striker, and I ADORE the Shaman (especially the interesting way he heals). This makes me feel really good.
... Then I look at the Barbarian. Not much has changed ... well, nothing has changed. Maybe they are just using the playtest version, but I think that would be silly of them. It depresses me when I think about how much feedback I gave and all the feedback I heard people giving on the Forums. They really don't listen sometimes.
...
just remember that the playtest gave us only one build, the same-ol barbarian that we are used to. now there is another build in PHB2, and probably 2 or 3 more in primal power. there is hope yet.
I've been looking carefully at the Avenger sheet and also at the powers and features that Ekio posted (thanks a lot!) and there is something that I keep thinking about.
Is really tha Avenger a new Striker class?
All the things we have seen seem to point in the direction of Defender as primary role. Let me explain:
- Has HP as all other Defenders (except Warden, who has more).
- Has a feature that grants a bonus to AC (same as Swordmage).
- Has also a feature that makes it great in a one-to-one duel (same as Paladin).
- Doesn´t have any mean to do extra damage.
- And also the powers, Bond of Pursuit grants the kind of stickiness one can expect from a defender, and the same goes with Sequestering Strike.
Thinking about it, I think the Avenger will be a new Defender, not a new Striker. There are other considerations:
- Avenger has never ever been confirmed a Striker. There was told there will be a Striker in a different way, but it can be either the great-waepon-wielding barbarian or the close-blast sorcerer.
- With the last days revelations of the Sorcerer as a Striker and not a Controller is even more posible that the Avenger doesn't end being a Striker.
What do you think?
In response,
-Yes, but strikers can have high hit points. Its not about hit point level, its about defense. High hit points and low armor class is another way to do things, as shown by the barbarian.
-Yes, they have an AC bonus. But their starting AC is dismal. They only get cloth armor by default, leaving them with a starting AC of 10+3+dex. Assuming that dexterity is their main stat, that puts them even with a ranger.
-Actually, the paladin does NOT have a feature that makes it great in a 1v1 duel. In a 1v1 duel, the paladin's mark is useless. The paladin has a feature which coerces enemies into attacking him instead of his allies. That's only worthwhile if you're not in a 1v1 duel.
-Extra accuracy and extra damage are awfully similar in the long term. I'm the guy who did the math, its in the Striker forum, I believe. An Avenger with an Executioner's Axe is very similar in damage to a Ranger with dual Bastard Swords. They're not completely identical, but they're really close.
-Actually, those powers don't make him sticky. They let him run after the enemy after the enemy leaves because he wasn't sticky. Meanwhile, the enemy can attack his allies freely, and there's very little the Avenger can do.
I do think that its possible to defend your allies at least a little bit with an Avenger, because you have all of those neat abilities to move enemies. So you can move enemies away from your allies, then stand in the middle so that they can't get back to where they were easily. But when you play an Avenger your concern is going to be maneuvering so that you're fighting only one enemy at a time. When you're playing a defender, your concern is maneuvering so that as many enemies as a time are fighting you. Its kind of the opposite way of thinking, and really, an Avenger is going to want to be in a party with a solid defender so that he doesn't get double teamed all the time and lose his fancy accuracy bonus.
This Avenger is getting closer and closer to the Samurai custom class I used in 3.5, it was made by someone here in the forums, Kanachi. (it's in the archives now
)It was very 4e in many aspects, having a "Mark" ability (actually used to deal more damage). The similarity is that this Mark was like the oath of the avenger in that you had to kill the enemy before selecting another. And as Cadfan says, extra damage and extra accuracy equal each other in the long term. So I'm glad to see that with the Avenger I can make that "mystical duelist" that is really an archetype to me, and that was really missing, something that nearly never happens with new classes, that more often give you just neat ways to do things you could have achieved with multiclassing.
I applaud WotC for this. A pity they didn't come up with a marking ability for Wardens that could be on the same originality level. And especially not so cheesy as "roots and vines"...
Don't really see anything awesome in there.
And for the guy who wrote a small book whining how bad the Barbarian is, I'd personally much rather play a barbarian than a guy wearing cloth who brings the bad guy to him, doesn't seem to really do any impressive damage (Unless I'm missing something he doesn't have an extra damage mechanism, just a reroll? He's built around the '1 strike, big damage' mentality but the best he has in this is 2[W] with no + from any other source than his attack source, except for his daily Aspect... which work exactly like Rage) and his built around the idea of fighting 1v1 in a TEAM based game. I also find your whole tirade totally baseless because the Avenger clearly has a very similar mechanism to Rage, except he calls them Aspect.
Yes... it's original... but 'huh?'
This is a melee striker who doesn't want the defender to cover him... looks like it's going to make for a lot of short lived characters.
I have to agree with Fainekhan here, this guy is screaming 'I'm a defender'. Because all of a sudden, all the power that makes no sense for a Striker (Teleporting you and the bad guy away from the Defender vs Teleporting you and the target away from the squishies as a defender) suddenly work very well.
All the other classes, Avenger included, just don't inspire me at all to want to play them. I'm hoping a better read of the Avenger may make it more interesting, but with this sneak peek I'm not terribly optimistic.
I am starting to think I may not buy, and definatley not pre-order, a PH2.
And since there's no marking ability and they're a highly mobile class, it doesn't look like they're defenders at all.
And for the guy who wrote a small book whining how bad the Barbarian is, I'd personally much rather play a barbarian than a guy wearing cloth who brings the bad guy to him, doesn't seem to really do any impressive damage (Unless I'm missing something he doesn't have an extra damage mechanism, just a reroll? He's built around the '1 strike, big damage' mentality but the best he has in this is 2[W] with no + from any other source than his attack source, except for his daily Aspect... which work exactly like Rage) and his built around the idea of fighting 1v1 in a TEAM based game. I also find your whole tirade totally baseless because the Avenger clearly has a very similar mechanism to Rage, except he calls them Aspect.
5 words- Channel Divinity: Rightus Rage of Tempus.
Any Divine striker is going to have to take the existance of this power into account. By boosing to-hit instead of damage, they make it more likely to get RRoT off, but they don't make it any stronger than it already is.
They printed RRoT already- now they are trying to make sure there are avengers of other gods as well.
M - Monster
D - Defender
A - Avenger
The combatants are arranged like so:
M
DA
The Avenger then uses Sequestering strike to set up
D
M
A
leaving the Monster flanked and the Avenger safely behind the Defender.
I also don't get the gripe about the Avenger's Aspect daily. Did I miss something about Dailies that encourage early use being a bad thing or even a new thing? Why are Barbarian Rages bad?
M - Monster
D - Defender
A - Avenger
The combatants are arranged like so:
M
DA
The Avenger then uses Sequestering strike to set up
D
M
A
leaving the Monster flanked and the Avenger safely behind the Defender.
I also don't get the gripe about the Avenger's Aspect daily. Did I miss something about Dailies that encourage early use being a bad thing or even a new thing? Why are Barbarian Rages bad?
looks like a great tactic to me...and that is what makes or breaks PCs tactics, not bonuses
Twin Panthers Shaman Attack 1
Two panther spirits leap on your foes, and the panthers channel their predatory instincts through your spirit companion as that(?) it approaches nearby enemies.
Encounter * Implement, Ritual
Standard Action Ranged 5
Target: One creature.
Attack: +6 vs. Reflex (+9 against a bloodied target)
Hit: 1d8 + 5 damage. Until the end of your enxt turn, you and your allies have combat advantage when making melee attacks against any enemy adjacent to your spirit companion.
Effect: Make that attack one more time against the same target or a different one.
Interesting Keyword.
Interesting Keyword.
The keyword is primal.
5 words- Channel Divinity: Rightus Rage of Tempus.
Any Divine striker is going to have to take the existance of this power into account. By boosing to-hit instead of damage, they make it more likely to get RRoT off, but they don't make it any stronger than it already is.
They printed RRoT already- now they are trying to make sure there are avengers of other gods as well.
The channel divinity in a setting book for a world I don't play in and a god that doesn't exist in my world is the balancing factor? :P
At-will opportunity action powers make me wary. Especially when the condition for triggering them is fulfilled by pushes and slides.
Except forced movement explicitly does not provoke opportunity attacks. I read it that the body of the attack is just to clarify that the OA originates from Spirit Companion instead of the Shaman.
Interesting Keyword.
I took a look at the original picture, and it is, clearly, actually the "Primal" keyword. I'm not sure if you were joking, but I wanted to point out that, so far, there is no "Ritual" keyword.
I know I sounded like I was whining about the Barbarian, so I don't take any offense, but I did want to point out why the Avenger can achieve higher damage in a different way than any other class.
Simply consider that the Avenger has twice as much chance to get a critical hit (and this in only the first three levels) while removing the danger of a critical miss almost entirely. I realize this is far from conclusive, but I believe that the Avenger will have at least one paragon path that increases crit chance to 19-20, and certainly there will be powers to help in this way.
Anyways, my personal definition of a Striker has never been "extra damage." I, personally, have always seen the Striker as the class that focuses on one enemy to remove it from the fight quickly. Certainly this can be done with damage, but I am excited to discover different ways to accomplish this.
There will be people who say, "so what" about the Avenger, of course. However, I think this is fantastic; that's what keeps D&D diverse. The Avenger is functional and exciting to certain people, while others would prefer to play a Rogue. Thank goodness for that.
My problem with the Barbarian has always been one of appropriate functionality, not simple bordom (though that certainly plays a part).
Anyways, I hope you enjoy this small book.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
Except forced movement explicitly does not provoke opportunity attacks. I read it that the body of the attack is just to clarify that the OA originates from Spirit Companion instead of the Shaman.
In addition to that, it also explicity does not provoke opportunity actions, which is very important in this case. (No other form of movement explicitly doesn't provoke opportunity actions, just attacks.)
Anyways, I just thought that was neat.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I took a look at the original picture, and it is, clearly, actually the "Primal" keyword. I'm not sure if you were joking, but I wanted to point out that, so far, there is no "Ritual" keyword.
Ah, no I wasn't joking. Was thinking it was a power that you had to prepare earlier or something. But Primal makes more sense.
In addition to that, it also explicity does not provoke opportunity actions, which is very important in this case. (No other form of movement explicitly doesn't provoke opportunity actions, just attacks.)
Yes. I forgive myself of the snafu in nomenclature given that, as far as I can recall, this is the first Opportunity Action that isn't a melée basic attack from the character. (since this is the character's power it consumes their opportunity action for the turn. If the provoking creature were to move across the theatening squares of both Spirit Beat and Shaman in a single action the Shaman would only get their own OA or the Spirit Beast's since the Beast technically has no actions of it's own.)
Simply consider that the Avenger has twice as much chance to get a critical hit (and this in only the first three levels) while removing the danger of a critical miss almost entirely. I realize this is far from conclusive, but I believe that the Avenger will have at least one paragon path that increases crit chance to 19-20, and certainly there will be powers to help in this way.
The thing with re-roll, is that they get less and less powerful the more your party is optimized and playing smart.
When you only miss your target on a roll of 1-2-3-4 (or even less) - thanks to combat advantage and a judicious use of power that increase hit/lower defense + a Tact lord... then a reroll isn't all that exciting since odds are good you'll go 10 rounds and not miss once anyway. The extra damage features really really shine there, and the Avenger has none.
Anyways, my personal definition of a Striker has never been "extra damage." I, personally, have always seen the Striker as the class that focuses on one enemy to remove it from the fight quickly. Certainly this can be done with damage, but I am excited to discover different ways to accomplish this.
The Avenger and Barbarian are both, designed to use 2 handed weapons, designed to wear light Armors. Both are highly mobile (Avenger via teleportation, Barbarian built around the idea that he needs to charge on top of an at-will that let him shift) and have Daily Power that deal high damage and 'buff' them for the rest of the fight (Rage vs Aspect).
Their difference are around their striker mechanism (extra dmg vs re-roll), their defense (high ac vs temp hp) and their feature (Channel Divinity vs Free Charge when killing a foe)...
Yet one makes you go 'wow', and the other one bores you... sound more like a bias than anything else :P
And while damage may not matter much to you, it does matter to most people when looking for a striker... the Avenger doesn't seem particularly high on the dpr compared to other strikers.
Also the double-roll feature effectivley negates the penalty of Power Attack. Throw a Fullblade in the mix and it's a pretty scary sight.
Edit: or a Viscious Execution Ax to take advantage of the higher base crit chance.
And while damage may not matter much to you, it does matter to most people when looking for a striker... the Avenger doesn't seem particularly high on the dpr compared to other strikers.
I wouldn't actually say that. Damage per nova, perhaps, but having a DPR 25% higher than the damage would suggest by having a reroll is a nice feature. And RRoT compensates even for that, by giving an auto-crit if you hit.
At 20 there's a (.05+.05-(.05^2)=.0975) 9.75% chance of a critical.
At 19-20 there's a (.1+.1-(.1^2)=.19) 19% chance of a critical.
Should they ever get something that gives them 18-20, that's potentially a (.15+.15-(.15^2)=.2775) 27.75% chance of a critical.
(Psst look at the stats, esp the 16s)
The 2 rolls for an attack, also gives an avenger 2 chances at scoring a critical hit. It becomes more effective if they get anything that improves their crits to 19-20 or 18-20.
At 20 there's a (.05+.05-(.05^2)=.0975) 9.75% chance of a critical.
At 19-20 there's a (.1+.1-(.1^2)=.19) 19% chance of a critical.
Should they ever get something that gives them 18-20, that's potentially a (.15+.15-(.15^2)=.2775) 27.75% chance of a critical.
Multiclass to Rogue and get Daggermaster, crit lots with your pansy daggers of awesome power.
Anyone notice anything weird about the avenger?
(Psst look at the stats, esp the 16s)
Wis is probably the main stat for attacks with powers, and Dex is chosen for AC/Ref and the odd ranged attack. What's so weird about that?
By the by, did anyone notice the Gnome Racial Powers? Interesting. At first, I thought it was a feat, but the Bard didn't take a racial feat (I recognised all her feats). My personal guess is that there will be a list of a few cantrips and a gnome can learn one of them (at character creation) and use it as an encounter power. I would also assume that there is one non-Wizard cantrip so that Gnome Wizards don't feel dumb.
Anyways, I just thought that was neat.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
It IS neat. I'm totally digging a gnome character. And I always liked them, NEVER understood what was so wrong about them, apart from the lack of strong identity, that 4e solved pretty well, and I guess will solve even better with the full race write-up.
They are both 16s that give +4 not +3 as they should, unless this has changed.
Look again. All the modifers are 1 more than they should be...
Because they all include 1/2 level.
By the by, did anyone notice the Gnome Racial Powers? Interesting. At first, I thought it was a feat, but the Bard didn't take a racial feat (I recognised all her feats). My personal guess is that there will be a list of a few cantrips and a gnome can learn one of them (at character creation) and use it as an encounter power.
H-hey, wait a minute! The gnome has Ghost Sound, usable as a Minor action -- Ghost Sound is a standard action!
Although I suppose that's probably just an error on the character sheet...
AHH! You're right!
It reads "or extra 1d8 damage if it isn't." Sorry about that.
I'm actually reading, "...or fill extra damage...". Meaning that fill would mean 1dwhatever is in the power. I'm not completely sure about that but I am certain there is nothing between "extra" and "damage".
H-hey, wait a minute! The gnome has Ghost Sound, usable as a Minor action -- Ghost Sound is a standard action!
Although I suppose that's probably just an error on the character sheet...
Probably. It's not the only mistake on the sheets (add up the elf sorcerer's point buy, for one).
When you can't tell whether a class is a striker or a defender, you have problems. Clearly the avenger is one such. Censure of Pursuit is a stickiness power, but it requires that the avenger be at least as mobile as the target. Oath of Enmity, too, is hard to use on a high-mobility enemy (you Oath them, they move away... and then what?). Bond of Pursuit is also a stickiness power, but that's a choice, of course.
I'm guessing that it's a striker class with a defender-esque build. Possibly vice-versa, but I'll bet that the other build is more clear-cut.
Yet one makes you go 'wow', and the other one bores you... sound more like a bias than anything else :P
I understand why you would think it was a bias, so I would be glad to explain why I find the Barbarian borring. First, I do want to assure you that this is not based on bias, but on an expectation for Fourth Edition Classes in general.
My philosophy towards 4E is that a class ought to express itself primarily by the use of At-Will Powers and Class Features. This is also WotC's philosophy (see pg. 60 of Dragon 369).
When people speak of the Barbarian, you find that a discussion about Raging is inevitable, yet it is not expressed through the use of either At-Will Powers or Class Features. You cannot simply say that the Barbarian is expressed by doing a lot of damage; Rogues do that too. In addition, most class features that give even the semblance of a Rage are based on critical hits and monster deaths that are entirely out of the player's control. Even then, Swift Charge is an encounter power!
In fact, the most intriguing aspect of the Barbarian (Raging) is reserved for Daily attacks! I don't ask that the Dailies become At-Wills, of course, but something needs to change. Perhaps Raging could become a seperate feature and the Dailies are more potent forms of Rages. Maybe Swift Charge just needs some tweaking so it can happen more often (like an At-Will Power that also works when you Bloody someone). Perhaps the At-Will Powers could provide the Rage benefits even while not Raging.
I also despise that they attempt to explain it away by saying that the At-Will Powers are more powerful while Raging. To me, this is worse than if they had stayed the same. For all intents and purposes, you just changed my At-Wills into an encounter-long Daily Power. It's still a Daily, WotC, not an At-Will or Class Feature!
*sigh* So what I'm trying to say is that a well designed class presents fun and interesting options to its player durring every turn of combat, not just once per day.
As Mike Mearls wrote:
"A well-designed class expresses its role, flavor, and story with only its class features and at-will attacks." (Pg 60, Dragon 369)
Well, Mike, it amazes me that you write this one page after you praise your decision to make Rages a Daily Power for Barbarians. Frankly, I find it disgusting.
In other words, the only "Rage" inherent in the Barbarian class is the kind that I feel whenever I look at how poorly it was designed.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
The powers in question could be read as stickiness, but really they're mobility. There's nothing there that punishes the target for attacking someone else or that makes it harder to attack someone else. The meager sample we have reads way more like the warlord than the fighter.
The Barbarian's at wills are great whether you're raging or not. They've got the best combat mobility in the game. Even without raging, their at wills let them charge more effectively than other class, shoulder their way through a crushing melee, and gain temporary hit points. They boost a little with rage, but they function just fine.
Oh, for crying out loud.
The Barbarian's at wills are great whether you're raging or not. They've got the best combat mobility in the game. Even without raging, their at wills let them charge more effectively than other class, shoulder their way through a crushing melee, and gain temporary hit points. They boost a little with rage, but they function just fine.
I disagree and still stand by my earlier statements. Sorry.
It isn't necessary that you agree with me, of course, but I'm certain that plenty people do.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
It's just hard to tell because both stats are at 16 >_< if he uses WIS for weapon attacks too i'll be ticked off, we already have a class using a mental stat for weapon attacks (cough swordmage). So I honestly think weapons = dex, implements = wis
Doesn't help it doesn't say "DEX VS AC" or "WIS VS WILL" or something like that either, it's just giving the bonuses >_<
edit: So yeah, the other melee ish divine classes get physical skills to attack, why not the avenger? :p
H-hey, wait a minute! The gnome has Ghost Sound, usable as a Minor action -- Ghost Sound is a standard action!
Although I suppose that's probably just an error on the character sheet...
I'm guessing it's not. The wizard's Ghost Sound is an at will, the gnome racial power is an encounter. This way it's not a redundant ability for gnome wizards, it would give you the option of two or three sounds in a single turn, once per encounter.
god knows how 1 or 2 feats can 'make' a build..
also, some classes are more dependent on feats.. (fighters for one).
so. just stop complaining, or play a battlerager !
for all it's worth, me too there are some classes that ' I cant stand ' (ie: warlords) but, I guess it is mostly just a personal opinion.
I disagree and still stand by my earlier statements. Sorry.
It isn't necessary that you agree with me, of course, but I'm certain that plenty people do.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
I half agree with you, though I feel that your further statements on the matter only re-enforce the previous evaluation that it's a matter of preference, not poor design.
The designers didn't make Rage a daily resource, they left them as a daily resource. A 1st level 3e Barbarian can only rage 1/day, and gains more as they level. The difference here is that the 4e Barbarian caps out at 4/day where the 3e ended with 6/day at 20th level.
Also there's a disagreement in "what makes a Barbarian." Rage is a defining feature, but it's not the sole definition of what makes a Barbarian fun or appealing. Rage is now and always has been a special event. In my mind, and apparently in the minds of the designers, a Barbarian isn't just an angry warrior, but a reckless warrior. I feel that the Barbarian's build very much encourages, and in many ways rewards, haphazard, senseless violence: provoking OAs "just because", charging willly-nilly, and generally making a beautiful mess of things, punctuated by the periodic Rage that turns chaos into a frothing maelstrom.
I like the pace and style of the Barbarian playtest. It feels "barbarian" to me, so yes, this is a case of "the barbarian doesn't float your boat."
STR will probably be a tertiary stats, mostly for feats requirement..
But with all those weapon feats needing lots of strength, it kind of scares me. Having to pump STR enough to get the good feats is even worst than having to pump DEX for blade fighters so far.
+.. it probably mean they are going to have bad AoO.
I guess we will see ! once it's in full format + all feats available.
In addition to that, it also explicity does not provoke opportunity actions, which is very important in this case.
So it doesn't.
I'm still not entirely sure that the power is sound, though. The flexibility in positioning the companion means they'll be getting an opportunity action pretty much every round, or making the monster attack the companion. Seems like it should be a class feature, mostly because I can't imagine a Shaman going without it.
So it doesn't.
I'm still not entirely sure that the power is sound, though. The flexibility in positioning the companion means they'll be getting an opportunity action pretty much every round, or making the monster attack the companion. Seems like it should be a class feature, mostly because I can't imagine a Shaman going without it.
I think it is a class feature.
I think too that the Avenger will be DEX based for attacks, and WIS based for implements.
STR will probably be a tertiary stats, mostly for feats requirement..
But with all those weapon feats needing lots of strength, it kind of scares me. Having to pump STR enough to get the good feats is even worst than having to pump DEX for blade fighters so far.
+.. it probably mean they are going to have bad AoO.
I guess we will see ! once it's in full format + all feats available.
Its also possible that the designers just don't expect the Avenger (or the non martial classes for that matter) to go all the way on the weapon feats. Right now there aren't that many alternatives, but as more feats get released the value of pumping points into an otherwise unimportant stat so that you can qualify for Heavy Blade Mastery or something will fall dramatically.
So it doesn't.
I'm still not entirely sure that the power is sound, though. The flexibility in positioning the companion means they'll be getting an opportunity action pretty much every round, or making the monster attack the companion. Seems like it should be a class feature, mostly because I can't imagine a Shaman going without it.
Spirit Fangs is a class feature. Basically gives your Spirit Companion a lite-OA that triggers off movement but not Ranged/Area attacks, but uses your OA for the turn to do it. Since Primals are all secondary Defender this is pretty much par for the course so far. Also given the restriction to just movement it depends a lot on your DM as to how often Spirit Fangs is going to come out in play.
Why is everyone saying the Avenger's AC is bad, and that it has cloth? It's wearing Leather. It looks like it might have bought the leather proficiency itself, but it's AC would have still been a respectable 18.
Some people are convinced it's a defender. The cloth, though, is a unique starting point for a melee character to date, which is why it's getting some airtime.
Personally I would have skipped Leather prof and gone for Power Attack.
Also there's a disagreement in "what makes a Barbarian." Rage is a defining feature, but it's not the sole definition of what makes a Barbarian fun or appealing. Rage is now and always has been a special event. In my mind, and apparently in the minds of the designers, a Barbarian isn't just an angry warrior, but a reckless warrior. I feel that the Barbarian's build very much encourages, and in many ways rewards, haphazard, senseless violence: provoking OAs "just because", charging willly-nilly, and generally making a beautiful mess of things, punctuated by the periodic Rage that turns chaos into a frothing maelstrom.
Okay then.
I've looked a few things over from your point of view on the Barbarian, and it fits a bit better that way. I'm not so dug into my opinions that I can't see when I'm a bit off base.
You're right about the At-Wills, they definately have a reckless feel to them and give you incentive to move around your enemy and charge again. That might even be fun, actually. Therefore, I do see how this might work well as a class. Who knows? I might even play it sometime.
I do still think that the Class Features are far too conditional and restricted. I feel strongly that they need to be changed subtly to allow them to see more play time. At this point in my perception, though, that might just make the class perfect.
One more thing.
The designers didn't make Rage a daily resource, they left them as a daily resource. A 1st level 3e Barbarian can only rage 1/day, and gains more as they level. The difference here is that the 4e Barbarian caps out at 4/day where the 3e ended with 6/day at 20th level.
True. In most cases I would say, "That's a valid point, LFK," and leave it at that, but this is something I've already considered extensively. Let me explain why the two editions differ so widely.
Sure, in 3E Barbarians could only Rage 1/Day at level 1, but let's consider how many encounters a level 1 character had per day in 3E. Two? Perhaps. With Wizards needing a timeout every other encounter in 3E, adventuring was extremely limited early on.
In 4E, characters are expected to hit around 10 encounters per day. That's how it is built. The difference is not a 1:1 ratio. The difference is a 1:5 ratio. Sure, the disparity changes a bit later on, but 6/Day is still quite a difference from 4/Day, even if we assume a similar amount of encounters. Then there are ten more levels in 4E where it stays static, while the Epic Barbarian of 3E continues to gain more Rages per Day durring those same levels.
In short, I can get behind the At-Will Powers for the Barbarian now, since you gave me a new perspective on my notions for the class, but, by comparison, the Barbarian of 4E will be Raging FAR less than the Barbarian of 3E. Maybe we'll just have to live with it, but it still makes me a sad panda.
By the way, thanks for that. Despite still seeing flaws in the class, I feel much better about the Barbarian now. That's worth a lot to me.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
In 4E, characters are expected to hit around 10 encounters per day. That's how it is built. The difference is not a 1:1 ratio. The difference is a 1:5 ratio. Sure, the disparity changes a bit later on, but 6/Day is still quite a difference from 4/Day, even if we assume a similar amount of encounters. Then there are ten more levels in 4E where it stays static, while the Epic Barbarian of 3E continues to gain more Rages per Day durring those same levels.
really???
10 encounters a day???
wow...I don't think at epic I ever hit 10 encointers...conteing RP & skill challenges (no need to rage) that still seams un reasnable...
at level 1 and 2 more then 3 enocuners aday is pushing it (but can be done)...I doubt anyone short of the op board coud get past 7...
at level 15-20 takeing 4-8 encounters a day is pushing it...maybe on a good day, with some light encounters you might hit 5 milestone...but I doubt it...
how many people here have played at level 5 and had 7+ combat encounters in a day???
We hit six once.
Never seen anyone hit 10. A striker can't even afford one healing surge per fight at a ten fight a day regimen. Are you actually playing 10 fights per day, or is this some theoretical idea you came up with?
10 Even level Encounter = A level.
That's not counting skill challenge or quest reward either...
3-4 is a long day for my party. They're running out of daily, have used action points and item daily and are starting to run pretty damn low on healing surge. At this point, they will usually call for an extended race.
However, once I didn't let them get it (They were escaping from a prison essentially, and couldn't rest until they were clear)... they went for 6 encounters, at which point the whole group was out of Daily, Item Daily use, Action Points and healing surge... they had to do Heal Check in order to stabilize the two dying players and then take an extended rest.
This isn't in any way shape or form 'Your average workday' for an adventurer either, this was a grueling ordeal that they barely escaped alive and never want to face again.
That being said...
You're right about the At-Wills, they definately have a reckless feel to them and give you incentive to move around your enemy and charge again. That might even be fun, actually. Therefore, I do see how this might work well as a class. Who knows? I might even play it sometime.
Yeah, he does sound like a lot of fun.
He may not be the 'best' character or the most effective (or he might be, haven't really looked all that much in optimizing one), but the raw abandon that the character playstyle favor is what makes it appealing to me, and it's what makes it feel like a 'Barbarian'.
Compared to that, the Avenger looks like a magical teleporting pixie >_> woohoo.
Personally I would have skipped Leather prof and gone for Power Attack.
Agreed. I see some Elf builds that are going to narfing silly for spamming attacks.
I say the Avenger will use DEX for his weapon attack powers.
I think too that the Avenger will be DEX based for attacks,
Would make his AC too high.
I remember hearing so much about ending the "10 minute adventuring day" last year, I guess it just stuck.
All I can do is say that, in your groups who play 4-5 encounters in a day, the problem will be much less pronounced. So I suppose groups that still keep their adventuring days short will be better off than my group.
Still, at four encounters a day, you're still Raging half as often as you were in 3E.
I mean, if you want me break down crying and say that the Barbarian is perfect and that Raging will happen just as often as in 3E, then you're going to be disappointed. I feel better about the class with LFK's point of view in mind, but I it seems that they're trying to make Raging more "special" in 4E, and I'd rather sacrifice that a bit to see it more often.
Or, you know, I could force my players to rest after every two encounters. They'd just LOVE that.
Yours,
Lord Dreadman
PS: I'm a bit upset that I conceded a major point back there and then you come back and question my integrity. Even sarcastically suggesting that this was simply something that I made up to strengthen my point. I won't stoop to say things that I would regret, but if you want to discuss this topic like an adult, perhaps you could control the snarky teenager inside you.
As for the Avenger, while Oath of Emnity seems awesome, I can't wait to see the other Oath(s)...unless someone posted about it and I just missed it.
The keyword is primal.
It is. 3am madness, etc.
As for the Avenger, while Oath of Emnity seems awesome, I can't wait to see the other Oath(s)...unless someone posted about it and I just missed it.
I think it's Oath of Enmity for all Avengers, but "Censure of Pursuit" that's the build that's shown in the picture. As you will notice, a lot of the powers do seem to be very pursuit related with the whole shifting/teleporting after pushing/sliding/teleporting the target.
I remember with our 3e barbarian I never had the sense that raging was ever much more than a timing issue, either to take advantage of the HP or the damage boost, and honestly the most common use of it was in attempts to inflict mortal damage saving throws or just to see if he could break 100 damage overkill. His 4e Barbarian I find much more, well, special when raging.
Last point to cross my mind for now, the different flavors of rage available is what sold me on the rarity.
That said I don't think that this interpretation is the only way they could have built the barbarian, just that I'm happy with it.
Sorry if this is disconnected and in need of an edit, there are some distinct limtations when composing these on a phone.
Another thing or two but can't remember.
-Sutro
Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action Close Burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make (???two???) attack rolls and use (???better???) results. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and take the lower result when making an attack roll this power has no effect on that power either.
If an (???effect???) lets you reroll an attack roll and you (????) twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
So... that's nuts.
Oath of Enmity Avenger Feature
Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action Close Burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make (???two???) attack rolls and use (???better???) results. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and take the lower result when making an attack roll this power has no effect on that power either.
If an (???effect???) lets you reroll an attack roll and you (????) twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
So... that's nuts.
Here's an early optimization for an avenger:
Elf avenger of Tempus
If an effect lets you reroll an attack roll and you twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
In conjunction with the elven accuracy means 1/ encounter he rolls 4d20 for his to hit.
This with RRoT is what makes him shine as a striker.
He uses a spear and here's where I need your help
He has 3 options for Multiclassing
Fighter
[INDENT]Rain of blows with a spear combined with his great to get in the hits.
Polearm momentum with his lovely overwhelming strike (footwork lure) and go polearm path[/INDENT]
Ranger
[INDENT]1/encounter quarry, Claws of the Griffon, Spitting cobra stance(?)[/INDENT]
Rogue
[INDENT]crit with 2d6 1/ encounter
Daggermaster for crit range of 18-20 and a 27% chance to crit on each melee attack with a bloodiron dagger[/INDENT]
Would it be optimal to do MC fighter for heroic, then switch out to rogue for paragon, or should I wait for other paragon paths that would give that extra crit range? He could even to paragon multiclassing for ranger or fighter for dual/twin strike and roll 4d20's for his at-will and maximize on doing lots of damage when he crits wiht a high probability.
This is just an after though. Do you think that the oath of emnity is simply a chosen path available to avengers, favorable to melee avengers? What about if there are 2 main paths for avengers (dex melee based and wis ranged based) and there's an oath of X for ranged avengers that is equally good?
Mmm. From what I remember from playing the Goliath Barb at DDXP, they're +2 Athletics, +2 Endurance to skills, +2 str, +2 con for stats; can roll two athletics dice for climbing or jumping; their encounter racial allows them to get resist 5 all as a minor action.
Another thing or two but can't remember.
-Sutro
I would add it also appears they get a racial +1 to Reflex AND Will, and their resist all 5 lasts for a whole round.
I really, REALLY like the look of Goliaths :D Hope the fluff is as good as the stats are looking
So keeping up Wis as your main Stat, than Con has your secondary stat and STR has a 3rd stats... oi... not gonna work.
Say you start with Wis 16 and Con 14 and Str 13 (going with standard array here)...
You'll most likely want to increase your Wis every time, meaning you'll look at Con 17 and Str 14 at level 11 (or 16-15)... not enough for Hammer Rythm until you reach level 14 (assuming you up your Str to 15).
As for Bludgeon Mastery, you'll never get it unless you're willing to skip a + in wisdom to put it in STR.
Granted, taking a Race that has a +con or +str alleviates this, but in the end you still need to put +'s in a tertiary stat that doesn't benefit you much.
Axe Mastery is even worse, since it requires a massive strength score that is utterly wasted on a Wis/Con build. Even if the build ends up being Wis/Str, you end up with a similar problem with getting your Con up. And if it's actually Dex primary and Wis secondary, than getting any else then Blade Mastery might not be logical.
Avengers are going to have a hard time getting those weapon feats.
But while Axe Mastery could be good for them... why would they go with Hammers? Hammer Rythm looses a lot of it's potency for a class that is 25% more accurate than the other classes.
The difficulty to reach weapon skill for them makes me think that:
1 - They will be better/more interesting feat for them in the PHB2 and Divine Power (STR cleric and paladin also share this problem - they can't get good weapon skill without gimping themselves in other area).
2 - They're designed and balanced with the idea that they can't get those.
I also severely doubt that one spec would start with cloth while the other starts with chain. Actually makes me think wis/int will be the other spec.
Hmm, though a dex/wis dex/con class would be new. But then the +2 AC would be super powerful as people would be able to dump out for a 20 starting Dex. Fighter AC, rogue mobility, ranger damage? Uuuuuhhhhhh... Yesplz? Wut u mean OP?
So keeping up Wis as your main Stat, than Con has your secondary stat and STR has a 3rd stats... oi... not gonna work.
Say you start with Wis 16 and Con 14 and Str 13 (going with standard array here)...
Start with 16/14/14/13/10/8 pre-racial-adjustments and you'll be fine. Isn't the only class nedding three stats (e.g. heavy blade fighters need Str/Wis/Dex since PHB1)
Start with 16/14/14/13/10/8 pre-racial-adjustments and you'll be fine. Isn't the only class nedding three stats (e.g. heavy blade fighters need Str/Wis/Dex since PHB1)
Incidentally, that is my favorite ability spread. It allows for fair defenses all around, and starts you with reasonable abilities for your primary and secondary stat. The only characters I'd consider using a more skewed array (such as 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8) might be an Archer Ranger or a Wizard, but that's because I'm a sucker for an 18 or 20 Dex or Int for a ranged class that gets their attack stat to AC (I saw a player play a Genasi Swordmage with a 15 Str, 13 Con, 10 Dex, 20 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha once, sucker had a ridiculous AC of 21 after buying Hide armor).
I hope the class gets previewed. The Warden and Avenger were both wholly new classes, and the Warden disappointed me since I can't envision what it is. But I'm excited about the Avenger, especially seeing that the Avenger, Barbarian, and Sorcerer play completely different.
PS: Anyone find it interesting that the PHB1 gave us 2 defenders, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 1 controller; now we're getting 1 defender, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 2 controllers. Add that to the Swordmage and Artificer, and we have the following spread:
Controllers: 3
Defenders: 4
Leaders: 5
Strikers: 6
We need more controllers and defenders now, less strikers.
Incidentally, that is my favorite ability spread. It allows for fair defenses all around, and starts you with reasonable abilities for your primary and secondary stat. The only characters I'd consider using a more skewed array (such as 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8) might be an Archer Ranger or a Wizard, but that's because I'm a sucker for an 18 or 20 Dex or Int for a ranged class that gets their attack stat to AC (I saw a player play a Genasi Swordmage with a 15 Str, 13 Con, 10 Dex, 20 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha once, sucker had a ridiculous AC of 21 after buying Hide armor).
I would really like some three-abilities classes sometime again in the future. I think that if they had the right feats and/or class features, they could be decent. For example a class that encourages having a mid to high stat for attack and two mid-to-low stats for other things could have the two mid-to-low stacked (one partially stacked) to AC, or static bonus to AC and partial stack to attack or damage... Things like these. It would sound good for Ki classes that I suppose are about exploiting very thoroughly both your physical and mental resources. But I don't know, I don't see that happening. Again better like this, I'll have "room" to make a really different custom class the day I'll have what I need to.
I hope the class gets previewed. The Warden and Avenger were both wholly new classes, and the Warden disappointed me since I can't envision what it is. But I'm excited about the Avenger, especially seeing that the Avenger, Barbarian, and Sorcerer play completely different.
The Warden... I think it's easy to understand what it is, an earth-and-plants-controlling tough warrior (cheesy already), the hard thing is accepting the poor poor flavoring that they put, sometimes very deeply into the mechanics. Only two words to say about it: "Roots & Vines"...... With the excuse of "they play differently", they didn't manage to get strong enough thematic differences among ALL the primal classes. ALL of them have Con builds that sound DAMNED similar. Druid and Warden in particular, but Shaman too (just apply the Con toughness to allies in the form of healing), and Barbarian close to it, especially if they will get to use their Con bonus defensively (although the leaked goliath barbarian doesn't seem to do so). I mean, was it difficult to add more stats into the fray? OR, was it difficult to make a truly different Warden, using Con as PRIMARY stat? A "positional" defender, whose damaging powers are all or nearly all "reactions", a true MEAT SHIELD. However...
PS: Anyone find it interesting that the PHB1 gave us 2 defenders, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 1 controller; now we're getting 1 defender, 2 leaders, 3 strikers, and 2 controllers. Add that to the Swordmage and Artificer, and we have the following spread:
Controllers: 3
Defenders: 4
Leaders: 5
Strikers: 6
We need more controllers and defenders now, less strikers.
I doubt we'll ever see a PHB with less than 2 strikers, because
A) striker concepts and powers are easy to conceive.
B) people like doing damage, so give the the most options to do so
C) striker is usually the best role to have more of, if # of players is >4.
Don't have experience in this, but isn't it so much better to have more leaders instead of more strikers, in a > 4 party? It multiplies the survivability and effectiveness of everyone...
It's been my experience that multiple defenders is often the best idea in large groups. As far as strikers versus leaders, it varies so much from party setup to party setup, campaign to campaign, DM to DM, I'd call it even on duplicating either of them.
They're all better than multiple controllers, though, imho.
lizard people?
One thing I'm starting to notice is that there seem to be a boat load of things to help out characters who wear light armor, but hardly anything to help out characters who wear heavy armor.
I have also noticed this unfortunate trend.
I started playing D&D when 4th edition came out my quesiton is this what exactly is the DEVA race?
lizard people?
Roughly, extra-planar/divine beings who have multiple lifetimes of experience. Somewhat the opposite of Tieflings, sort of Angel-people.
I have also noticed this unfortunate trend.
It's because maxing out your AC when wearing light armor is a bit harder than maxing it when wearing heavy armor, unless Dex/Int are your primary/secondary stats.
Anyway, Agile Armor requires heavy armor, the Warpriest Paragon Path gives +1 AC when wearing heavy armor, and the Adamantine Soldier ED gives +2 AC when wearing heavy armor.
Aside from the aforementioned class features (Shield of Faith and Swordmage Warding ), I can't really think of something that improves your AC while wearing light armor only, aside from the side effect of an increased Dex if you take the Demigod Epic Destiny...
Don't have experience in this, but isn't it so much better to have more leaders instead of more strikers, in a > 4 party? It multiplies the survivability and effectiveness of everyone...
From an optimization standpoint, probably.
From WotC's standpoint, multiple strikers in a group causes the group to either
A) finish content more quickly (like published adventures)
B) die more often (causing players to want new characters, thus purchasing more books)
My tinfoil hat isn't so shiny as to believe this is actually a design goal, though.
As to devas, they seem to have a very Buddahvista feel to them as opposed to angelic.
The avenger should have a ranged spell casting build, with a another oath, given that other wise the holy symbol would be useless, after all who's going to spend all that gold for a channel divinity power you'd rarely use. I think wisdom will be the ranged HS stat and dex melee, with the wis being melee's kicker and vis versa.
As to devas, they seem to have a very Buddahvista feel to them as opposed to angelic.
Current thought in my head: one will focus on weapon damage while the other will focus on radiant damage through short range spells (1-5 square range). Cure X Wounds is in the game, but where's good old Cause X Wounds?
Current thought in my head: one will focus on weapon damage while the other will focus on radiant damage through short range spells (1-5 square range). Cure X Wounds is in the game, but where's good old Cause X Wounds?
yes I too have considered the possiblity that if there are alternate oaths then the different Avenger builds could each have a very different striker mechanic from each other!
The avenger should have a ranged spell casting build, with a another oath, given that other wise the holy symbol would be useless, after all who's going to spend all that gold for a channel divinity power you'd rarely use. I think wisdom will be the ranged HS stat and dex melee, with the wis being melee's kicker and vis versa.
Avengers seem to get different Censures, not Oaths. The Oath of Enmity looks like it's for all Avengers.
Avengers seem to get different Censures, not Oaths. The Oath of Enmity looks like it's for all Avengers.
I agree. The double roll seems to be their "thing" and since Censure of Pursuit triggers off Oath it's reasonable to assume that Oath is basically Curse or Quarry analogue. Extending that assumption, given the restrictions on Oath it seems as though the Avenger is a melee-range class through and through.
tonight at my game our group fell into a bit of disagreement here...of 7 people at teh store 3 felt it looked like a defender...2 felt it looked like a striker, 1 guy (unfortonalty I have to say I know him) said it looked more like a controler...and our DM said he thinks it is a new role...
so atleast here in CT we are not sure aht to make of it yet...
Regarding the barbarian rages, the main problem to me is the multiclass.
Whit only 2 feats, every class can fully benefit from the main, permanent bonus of the rage, while a Barbarian simply lose too much to drop any of his daily to get a daily from a different class.
I know, flexibility. But the mechanic is already balanced by the feat usage. The Barbarian lose an extra effect because it's the ONLY class fully dependent from his dailies to trigger his secondary power-ups.
I mean, nice to be flexible and cast Meteor Swarm. But losing a main class power boost to do so is a price no other have to afford, so why the barbarian have to?
It's like asking a rogue to lose a sneak attack dice to take the Adept power feat...
No offense Arakis, but using bold as an equivalent for enunciation is really obnoxious to readers. I've seen people who use bolding like it was punctuation, and it just really makes them come off like a jerk. (It doesn't help that some of them were actually jerks.) But anyway, I don't mean this to be an insult of any kind. Overbolding is just a pet peeve of mine.
This.
I am cross posting this becuse I feel it is somewhat usefult o the discussion
tonight at my game our group fell into a bit of disagreement here...of 7 people at teh store 3 felt it looked like a defender...2 felt it looked like a striker, 1 guy (unfortonalty I have to say I know him) said it looked more like a controler...and our DM said he thinks it is a new role...
so atleast here in CT we are not sure aht to make of it yet...
Emphasis added
Funny thing is that according to the page released it is a striker with a minor in controller. And it kind of does. The Avenger looks to be great at breaking up enemy formations. Especially if there's a Cleric to help keep the Avenger going. Also looks like it could do some back up defending with the Censure of Pursuit. Since that discourages it's prey from leaving it. Where as the Censure of Retribution is probably better at breaking up enemy formations and thus controlling since it encourages enemies to not be around it.
Deva Shaman
Shaman powers
Golith Barbarian
Barbarian powers
Warforged Warden
Warden Powers
Elf Sorcerer
Sorcerer Powers
Tiefling Invoker
Invoker powers
Gnome Bard
Bard Powers
Half Orc Avenger
Avenger Powers
No offense Arakis, but using bold as an equivalent for enunciation is really obnoxious to readers. I've seen people who use bolding like it was punctuation, and it just really makes them come off like a jerk. (It doesn't help that some of them were actually jerks.) But anyway, I don't mean this to be an insult of any kind. Overbolding is just a pet peeve of mine.
Actually it makes it really easy to see Arakis' key points. Thus allowing me to skim with efficiency, keep it up Arakis!
Hi, i'm the person who posted the original character sheets linked on the first page after reading the first two pages and skimming the rest I see some of you have had difficulty reading the pictures. I sized the pictures to fit on the site if you still want to see the full sized pics the links are below.
...
Man, how I wish to see a Shifter preview >.<
I hope the class gets previewed. The Warden and Avenger were both wholly new classes, and the Warden disappointed me since I can't envision what it is. But I'm excited about the Avenger, especially seeing that the Avenger, Barbarian, and Sorcerer play completely different.
Than help me out here, because I have no idea what the Avenger is supposed to look like or feel like? I can't wait for the phb2 to read some of the fluff and try and get it... I draw a total blank when I try and imagine one in my mind eye.
I had a hard time with the Warden too, but now I can see them now... big celtic warriors who draw the power of the spirit to warp their flesh and kick ass.
But the avenger? What concept resembles a cloth wearing 2 hander using teleporter? >_>
The cloth, 2 hander and the Strikerness makes me think of one of the Fanatic from the Empire in Warhammer... but when he starts teleporting all over the place, I just don't follow.
Than help me out here, because I have no idea what the Avenger is supposed to look like or feel like? I can't wait for the phb2 to read some of the fluff and try and get it... I draw a total blank when I try and imagine one in my mind eye.
I had a hard time with the Warden too, but now I can see them now... big celtic warriors who draw the power of the spirit to warp their flesh and kick ass.
But the avenger? What concept resembles a cloth wearing 2 hander using teleporter? >_>
The cloth, 2 hander and the Strikerness makes me think of one of the Fanatic from the Empire in Warhammer... but when he starts teleporting all over the place, I just don't follow.
Teleporting is a mechanic that can be flufffed in many ways, but to keep it teleporting "sensu strictu" and still have the flavor, think about that kind of "nemesis warrior" who is always stalking you, you think you escaped and you find it again in front of you.
I think it's far more mystical than an Empire Fanatic (although the basis is there).
I can envision it a bit like a ninja, mechanically, but with very different looks and flavor.
"Nemesis" is the single word that describes it better, since it implies the concept of "dire and sworn enemy". A Nazgul if you'd like could also be portrayed as an Avenger (of the Sauron "deity"). I'm just brainstorming, hope not to confuse things further, just giving all the ideas that come to my mind, let's see if you can connect with something!
Than help me out here, because I have no idea what the Avenger is supposed to look like or feel like? I can't wait for the phb2 to read some of the fluff and try and get it... I draw a total blank when I try and imagine one in my mind eye.
I had a hard time with the Warden too, but now I can see them now... big celtic warriors who draw the power of the spirit to warp their flesh and kick ass.
But the avenger? What concept resembles a cloth wearing 2 hander using teleporter? >_>
The cloth, 2 hander and the Strikerness makes me think of one of the Fanatic from the Empire in Warhammer... but when he starts teleporting all over the place, I just don't follow.
If you're familiar with Warhammer, then this should be a fairly easy one: Witch Hunters. Sure, they use two-handers instead of Rapiers/Flintlocks, but that's mostly out of balance issues. You could also look at them as Divine versions of Swordmasters, in a sense (they just focus on using the Winds of magic to teleport, rather than just to enhance their combat).
Another good one is Altair from Assassin's Creed. Again, using a two-hander instead of his normal weapons, but that is practically the fluff verbatim (some would say WotC took the fluff from AC, but, since the Hashashin really existed, this is a fairly weak accusation).
Witch Hunter are mechanically represented pretty much perfectly by a Rogue (Have him use a hand cross bow instead of a gun)... they have no real 'Divine Power' and are simply extremely devout Martial character. Saying they're like the Avenger (A cloth wearing wearing, 2 hander wielding, teleporter) shows a rather poor understanding of witch hunter >_>.
That being said, they do seem to share the same 'The Heretic Shall Burn!' view and see themselves as the weapon of their god's will... so from a roleplay point of view, talking to a (or as a) Witch Hunter or an Avenger is probably quite similar.
I guess my real hang up is all teleportation trick they have... it just doesn't feel very divine-ish to me, and I have a hard time associating that to the 'weapon of god' concept. I'm getting a mental picture closer to nightcrawler wielding a 2 handed sword ;p... doesn't help that nightcrawler also happens to be extremely faithful.
There was also a power that lets you chase after an enemy who runs away from you, a power that lets you charge and make a devastating attack while dodging OAs during the charge, a power that lets you hit an enemy, move, and slide your enemy along with you, and a power that lets you enter a stance where you deal a little extra damage, run a little faster, and excel at athletics.
I doubt teleportation is going to be mandatory. We haven't seen the power list, but I really doubt that teleportation is going to be an unavoidable portion of the class. In fact, I suspect that a nearly non magical Avenger will be quite possible. I mean, yeah, your attacks will have the Divine keyword, but there's not much magical about charging, attacking for 2[W]+Wis, and avoiding OAs along the way.
Witch Hunter are mechanically represented pretty much perfectly by a Rogue (Have him use a hand cross bow instead of a gun)... they have no real 'Divine Power' and are simply extremely devout Martial character. Saying they're like the Avenger (A cloth wearing wearing, 2 hander wielding, teleporter) shows a rather poor understanding of witch hunter >_>.
That being said, they do seem to share the same 'The Heretic Shall Burn!' view and see themselves as the weapon of their god's will... so from a roleplay point of view, talking to a (or as a) Witch Hunter or an Avenger is probably quite similar.
These two statements seem to conflict the idea that originally stated--that you can't envision an Avenger. I guess that's just because I don't see weapon choice as a particularly compelling part of a character. If the mindset of an Avenger and the mindset of a Witch Hunter a quite similar, it would seem to me that the difference in weapon choice is merely a personally choice. There's not any particular reason a Witch Hunter wouldn't use a two handed weapon (techniques could be developed for it that would make it preferable in certain situations to the standard rapier/gun combo), just like there's not any particular reason why an Avenger couldn't use a rapier/handcrossbow (outside of being weaker for the doing so).
Obviously the Avenger does actually receive divine power, while the Witch Hunter utilizes martial means, but, when they're applied to the same end, it seems quite similar.
I dunno, perhaps it's just me, but since the Avenger and the Witch Hunter fill the exact same roll (lightly armored, fanatic, single-minded destroyers of heretics), they just picked up a different weapon as they walked out the door--only one of them just walked out of a monastery, instead.
If you don't like the teleportation powers, don't choose them.
Not a matter of like - teleportation is neat. It just confuses the vision I have of the character.
Hence why I can't wait to have more info on him ;p
I dunno, perhaps it's just me, but since the Avenger and the Witch Hunter fill the exact same roll (lightly armored, fanatic, single-minded destroyers of heretics), they just picked up a different weapon as they walked out the door--only one of them just walked out of a monastery, instead.
I have a character concept. He's just like Gimli from LotR except he fights with 2 katanas!
I have a character concept, he's a total ******* and a mercenary, and also extremely devout to Lolth. Oh, he's a drow ranger who dual wield scimitars.
My first character won't be considered 'like gimli' by anybody. And while my Drow Ranger has very little in common with Drizzt aside from race/class/weapon, he'd still be considered a Drizzt Clone by most people.
The point? Mentality/Outlook is just as important as look and fighting style when it comes to designing a class or linking archetypes.
After all, if WotC had released a Barbarian has a class specialised in Crossbows and long range combat, most people's reaction would have been 'WTF?'. That's kinda what I'm getting when people say 'He's like a Witch Hunter'...
If the Witch Hunter is a Rogue... than what is an Avenger?
Heck, the Witch Hunter himself is inspired from Solomon Kane, a pulp fiction hero.
If you're familiar with Bleach, then any character that wields a two-handed weapon from that anime/manga would fit as an Avenger (minus the power source and motivation, that is). Ichigo is a good example of someone who fights like an Avenger. (flash step = teleport)
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Bleach
On topic: I kinda understand the whole witch-hunter deal but either way I will put it this way, I have never been excited about ANY of the divine classes until this one.
I don't personally have a problem seeing the Avenger in my mind, but I can understand that some people may need to see more to get acquainted with her. I don't see a problem with that.
Than help me out here, because I have no idea what the Avenger is supposed to look like or feel like? I can't wait for the phb2 to read some of the fluff and try and get it... I draw a total blank when I try and imagine one in my mind eye.
I had a hard time with the Warden too, but now I can see them now... big celtic warriors who draw the power of the spirit to warp their flesh and kick ass.
But the avenger? What concept resembles a cloth wearing 2 hander using teleporter? >_>
The cloth, 2 hander and the Strikerness makes me think of one of the Fanatic from the Empire in Warhammer... but when he starts teleporting all over the place, I just don't follow.
holy dervishes
Link for Tyrandor. Look up around 2:35 time where blond guy in black kimono goes nonmagicy teleporting. In fackt if you have ever watched more combat themed Anime there are more examles of such "skill". DBZ has plenty of it (famous multi hit combos performed by one char: kick get to the destination you foe flyes to faster than him and kick again. Then rince and repeat)
For me Avengers teleporting is more of representation of thier suddeness. Significant movement on very very short time frame can be attributed to inhuman bursts of speed. If cleric is word of god, Paladin is his righteus hand, then Avenger is Bullet/arrow/dagger in flight.
For pure fluff reasons one should not forget that its a Divine class. Either Avenger puts heroic stuff out of sheer thickheadedness/blind faith. Or he is filled with divine vigor, putting him in nearnarcotic state when he becomes the "sword of god" (rather than arm that wields it).
I don't personally have a problem seeing the Avenger in my mind, but I can understand that some people may need to see more to get acquainted with her. I don't see a problem with that.
Indeed.
Don't take me saying that I can't fathom the Avenger for a claim that it's a bad class, or poorly designed or that I don't want it in the game... I just can't fathom it.
Odds are I'll be able to once I've actually seen it in play.
And thanks for Aiva, trying to assimilate all the info and come to a consensus with it.
I think the Avenger can be a lot of things. I have a player who will almost definitely play an Avenger and give it a rapier (Which I've houseruled to be competitive with other superior weapons). He'll probably play it as a divine fencer. A lot of the teleport abilities are there to enforce that "divine challenge". You call an enemy out to duel and the teleporting lets you do your thing and get where there's no enemies around you so you can more effectively slay your enemy. I view it as a divine blessing to battle the enemy you've called out.
House rules already are competitive with all other superior weapons. It is the only light blade in the game that does 1d8 damage. Make it any better, and you make it an overpowered option for the rogue.
Ya, but what else does this tell us? They're fast, and that's cool. I dunno. What's the 'thematic' behind them. The story as to what they are.
Story? There's no story in 4th Edition. It's just another hack n'slash class, what's more to say? If they do have a story, it wouldn't matter anyway since it'll completely change by 5th Edition at the whim of WotC who cares nothing about consistency at all.
Story? There's no story in 4th Edition. It's just another hack n'slash class, what's more to say? If they do have a story, it wouldn't matter anyway since it'll completely change by 5th Edition at the whim of WotC who cares nothing about consistency at all.
You're right, it's just another collection of stats that use game rules to interact with an imaginary world that may or may not contain dungeons and or dragons.
House rules already are competitive with all other superior weapons. It is the only light blade in the game that does 1d8 damage. Make it any better, and you make it an overpowered option for the rogue.
Actually, the two-bladed sword does 1d8 damage, grants +1 to AC, and can be used as two weapons at once if you're so inclined. It also requires two hands... but already it's overtaken the rapier for Op rogues.
Actually, the two-bladed sword does 1d8 damage, grants +1 to AC, and can be used as two weapons at once if you're so inclined. It also requires two hands... but already it's overtaken the rapier for Op rogues.
This is more an issue with the Double Sword being wicked broken than it is anything else.
there are premade Avanger (11th level) in Dnd Gameday Adventure...
link please?
link please?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/gameday - search there...it's a premade character for the gameday...
to be more specific she's called Ilivarra and she is LEVEL 11 Female Drow Avenger (Zealous Assassin)... hope that will help you.
ps:i don't have the copy of the character right now...but my friend showed me one...
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/gameday - search there...it's a premade character for the gameday...
to be more specific she's called Ilivarra and she is LEVEL 11 Female Drow Avenger (Zealous Assassin)... hope that will help you.
ps:i don't have the copy of the character right now...but my friend showed me one...
Would it be too much to ask for a good high res photo of the powers page(s)?? :D
(Zealous Assassin)
This PP sounds interesting
This PP sounds interesting
I bet it exploits Charisma a bit.
urpok... You said a magic word.
9(dex+1/2lvl)+5(+3drowmesh armor)and looks like she have +5 from Improved Armor of Faith... or i've missed something? 0_o
hmm...her AC is awesome for premade striker...29!
9(dex+1/2lvl)+5(+3drowmesh armor)and looks like she have +5 from Improved Armor of Faith... or i've missed something? 0_o
Whoa! Well, yeah, an Improved Armor of Faith feat could give a +2 at paragon... Maybe +1 per tier! Of course the swordmage would want the new toy too...
The good thing is that the other build of the Avenger wants to be hit to gain damage and thus could ignore both leather prof. and improved armor of faith, leaving two precious feat slots open.
Though in compensation, you'd almost certainly want Toughness, and probably Durability, for survival after getting hit so much, so it's not really much of a gain. ;)
... You're damn straight!
Remember though that they have defender HP... (YUMMY :P )Another good one is Altair from Assassin's Creed. Again, using a two-hander instead of his normal weapons, but that is practically the fluff verbatim (some would say WotC took the fluff from AC, but, since the Hashashin really existed, this is a fairly weak accusation).
This guy definitely comes to mind when I think of the Avenger.
Actually, the two-bladed sword does 1d8 damage, grants +1 to AC, and can be used as two weapons at once if you're so inclined. It also requires two hands... but already it's overtaken the rapier for Op rogues.
Yea. I don't allow two-bladed swords to count as light blades. I consider them broken when they are counted as a light blade in this manner.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/gameday - search there...it's a premade character for the gameday...
to be more specific she's called Ilivarra and she is LEVEL 11 Female Drow Avenger (Zealous Assassin)... hope that will help you.
ps:i don't have the copy of the character right now...but my friend showed me one...
Im on the site and I don't see anything about pre-made characters, do I have to sign up or something? I don't like signing up so I can just look at something. Did I miss something? Or can someone upload a pdf of the pre-made character on scribd or something? =)
hmm...her AC is awesome for premade striker...29!
9(dex+1/2lvl)+5(+3drowmesh armor)and looks like she have +5 from Improved Armor of Faith... or i've missed something? 0_o
The feature gives +3 all the time
Praion then tell us what i've missed...and what does Improved Armor of Faith feat do =)
Little fairys that take your teeth away but give you money. Sharks love that feat.
There it is. Scroll to post 43. There are more details later in the thread.
It's because maxing out your AC when wearing light armor is a bit harder than maxing it when wearing heavy armor, unless Dex/Int are your primary/secondary stats.
Anyway, Agile Armor requires heavy armor, the Warpriest Paragon Path gives +1 AC when wearing heavy armor, and the Adamantine Soldier ED gives +2 AC when wearing heavy armor.
Aside from the aforementioned class features (Shield of Faith and Swordmage Warding ), I can't really think of something that improves your AC while wearing light armor only, aside from the side effect of an increased Dex if you take the Demigod Epic Destiny...
It just seems to take a while for wearing heavy armor to really pay off sometimes. I've actually noticed the opposite thing when it comes to AC; many light armor wearing characters seem to have higher AC than their heavy armor wearing counterparts. It seems as though many of the options which help out heavy armor wearing characters don't come until rather late in the game.
I'm not saying that's wrong or bad or whatever...it's just a little odd sometimes when the party wizard has the best AC of the party on a regular basis.