The purpose of this thread is not to debate the validity of the above claims, but rather to present a working house-rule for those player's who sincerely believe that WE/IE is over-powered as written (and those player's only).
Comments/Criticisms of my proposed house-rule are welcome, however I would appreciate that this thread not devolve into another thread debating whether WE/IE is broken (or not).
Weapon Expertise [House-Rule Revision]
Replace the second sentence of the Benefit section with "The bonus increases to +2 at 21st level".
Implement Expertise [House-Rule Revision
Replace the second sentence of the Benefit section with "The bonus increases to +2 at 21st level"
Personally, it is my opinion that had WE/IE been introduced in the PH1, they would have been hailed as vast improvements over their 3.X counterparts (WF/GWF/EWF); especially in light of the fact that the proposed 3.X solution to the WF/GWF/EWF complaint was to combine all three feats.
AFAIC, It is only by virtue of the fact that these feats were held back for the PH2 that any [percieved] issue exists.
.....And on that note, I would appreciate all remaining comments be directed at my proposed solution itself, rather than debate the reasons "why" the feats were created in the first place (to patch a mathematical error in the system/to update the WF tree to 4E/etc) and/or debate their power-level in comparison to other feats.
The problem isnt that they are overpowered, but that they should have been a part of the math in the first place. The "real" fix isnt to make the bonus smaller, its to give the bonus to all attacks for free without having to spend a feat.
I second this. Assuming that what we have been previewed (well posted from early buyers of PhBII in Japan:D) is correct, the simplest fix is to give the bonus to all attacks for free.
I suggest giving it starting at 5th level, because at least in my campaigns, 1st level characters aren't underpowered compared to the monster's AC defenses.
Also, giving it to all attacks saves concepts like my swordmage-MC-into-wizard from not having to spend three feats to use sword as a weapon, sword as an implement, and then regular wizard implement as an implement (before he becomes a wizard of the spiral tower, that is).
by glimerai?I thought this was a thread about how to "Fix: Weapon/Implement Expertise," which is how I believe GhostStepper responded. I think his suggestion is the right way to fix it.
It's your thread, so if you only want it to be "analyze my fix to Weapon/Implement Expertise, but don't suggest any alternatives", that's cool, and I'll post in another thread. You might want to use a different title next time though.
Again, this thread is not to debate the various aspects of the issue itself, but to provide a viable solution to the [percieved] problem.
Er...yeah, that was what i was trying to do. The [percieved] problem is that the math is off. The simplest solution is fixing it by giving the bonus for free instead of making people waste feats.
TBH, Ive heard all the complaints/rationales for both sides of the debate to know that there are three main camps - those who feel the math needs fixing, and those who don't.
In the former camp, there are those who believe that WE/IE should be given "for free" (either in feat form, or as an errata to the Level-Table); while in both camps there are those who feel that WE/IE should be feats, but that their implimentation makes them auto-picks (and therefore makes them run contrary to the 4E design model).
To put my suggestion in context, I honestly believe that WE/IE were not designed to "patch" any percieved/real error in the games math, but are instead a (poorly recieved) attempt on the designers part to update the WF tree (WF/GWF/EWF) to 4E.
On that premise, it then becomes an issue of how to make WE/IE feel like the 4E equivalent of said feats, without them being percieved as over-powered (or under-powered*) in comparison to other feat choices.
IOWs, my solution was to remove the "auto-pick" nature of WE/IE by bringing their power in line with other feat options (eg. Astral Fire), while simultaneously preserving the mechanical "niche" of its 3.X predecessors.
*As WF/GWF/EWF were considered to be in 3.X
Edit: For the record, I have no issue with either the math, or with the WE/IE feats as written. This is not the first time (nor will it be the last) that I have created solutions to help other people (who do have a problem) find more enjoyment in the game.
To put my suggestion in context, I honestly believe that WE/IE were not designed to "patch" any percieved/real error in the games math, but are instead a (poorly recieved) attempt on the designers part to update the WF tree (WF/GWF/EWF) to 4E.
On that premise, it then becomes an issue of how to make WE/IE feel like the 4E equivalent of said feats, without them being percieved as over-powered (or under-powered*) in comparison to other feat choices.
IOWs, my solution was to remove the "auto-pick" nature of WE/IE by bringing their power in line with other feat options (eg. Astral Fire), while simultaneously preserving the mechanical "niche" of its 3.X predecessors.
Actually, despite my early snark, I should say that is a good way to phrase your goal in this thread, and it's a coherent-enough goal. In my last post, I was going to be a little more civil and say that this seemed to be what you were actually trying to get at but, to err is human, so I went for pithy instead. You were just too easy a target b/c you gave the thread the wrong title. My apologies.
As for what you are trying to do, I disagree with your supposition that Implement/Weapon Expertise isn't a mathematical fix, and I think if you bring it in line with other feats by lowering the bonus, then you deny high-level characters the errata in disguise that WotC is doing here.
Nonetheless, if you want to try, I think you will find several problems with balancing these expertise feats and bringing them in line with your "3.e weapon focus feats in 4.e" concept:
1) even a +1 bonus to attack is a must-have feat for every character
2) making it a "feat" bonus ruins too many other feats that give situational feat bonuses to attack
3) the Weapon Focus line of feats from 3.e were fine enough in 3.e because only some PCs could take them, and 3.e worked fine (-ish) with characters that had widely varying attack bonuses (or who didn't even make d20 attacks, as with wizards)
4) these feats don't have any flavor/mechanics other than the bonus to attack, which is too powerful in 4.e, so there isn't something else to emphasize/retain in balancing the feat for 4.e
Nonetheless, if you don't think high-level characters need the errata, and your goal is to make the expertise feats balanced with other feats, have fun. I don't see any obvious way to do so, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth trying. Sadly, you'll have to count me out (not that you were planning on counting me in in the first place). ;)
Weapon Proficiency gets you: Broadsword, +2 proficiency, 1d10 to hit, versatile > Bastard Sword, +3 proficiency, 1d10 to hit, versatile
The reason that damage needs to scale is that +1 damage is balanced against an increased weapon die size (longsword to bastard sword for instance) for 1[W] powers, but it is weaker for 2[W] powers. As characters gain levels, they gain more powers that deal greater than 1[W] powers, and by epic they're generally never going to have them (aside from the rare huge multitargets, like the ranger's epic encounter that targets everyone in range). Thus, damage needs to scale by level, nearly everything that gives bonus damage scales with level.
But +1 to hit is always good (unless you can hit on a 2, then +1 to hit is worthless). As your damage goes up, +1 to hit gets better and better.
So my fix for Weapon/Implement Expertise is to make them Paragon feats and remove the scaling. Then they'll be comparable to Armor Specialization and the +2 Defense feats. As it is right now, Weapon Expertise will always be taken before Nimble Blade or Warforged Tactics, or any number of other feats.
But then again, I fixed the problem with the system math in my games months ago. The two fixes that work is either doubling the ability score bonuses you get as you gain levels (change it to +2 to 2 at 4th and 8th levels, and +2 to all at 11th ... but you need to remove masterwork light armor and boost masterwork heavy armor), or add masterwork (as light armor) bonuses to weapons, implements, and neck items. But for WotC to do that, they'd have to admit they made a mistake in the first PHB's math.
I don't think they necessarily made a mistake so much as they overestimated how much Leaders were going to benefit party's attack bonuses. The only problem is that most leader powers that grant attack bonuses have to hit to grant their bonuses. Also, not every group should have to have a Leader; even though they made the Leaders more interesting, party's shouldn't be forced to have any one role. But maybe that's just my opinion.
Problem is that Weapon Expertise ISN'T balanced compared to Weapon Focus. Weapon Focus's damage bonus increases because characters get higher weapon dice as they gain levels.
Weapon Focus sucks, so isn't actually a good paragon term. Seriously: even playing with PHB only, why should one take WF (Heavy Blades) and use a longsword instead of taking Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) and use a bastard sword?
Problem is that Weapon Expertise ISN'T balanced compared to Weapon Focus. Weapon Focus's damage bonus increases because characters get higher weapon dice as they gain levels. +1 to hit is a balanced feat, watch:
Um......Im not sure you and I are on the same page.
I was NOT comparing Weapon Expertise (+1 ATK/tier) to 4E Weapon Focus (+1 damage/tier).
I was in fact, comparing Weapon Expertise (+1 ATK/Tier) to 3.X Weapon Focus/GWF/EWF (+1 ATK/feat).
In light of this fact, the rest of your point (while debatable) is irrelevant (since 4E WF is the equivalent of 3.X WS) lol.
Hope this helps clarify the issue.
Or you can pretend the feats don't exist and lower all monster's defences by 1.
Which would require a hell more of a bookeeping.
Which would require a hell more of a bookeeping.
When looking at monster stat blocks to simply mentally reduce all defences in an encounter by 1 when looking at them, how is that any form of bookkeeping?
2- Allow the feats, but make them an encounter power you use in free action after you make the attack roll
When looking at monster stat blocks to simply mentally reduce all defences in an encounter by 1 when looking at them, how is that any form of bookkeeping?
Every time I look at the creature's stats, I have to mentally decrease defenses by one. That's an useless extra operation.
Every time I look at the creature's stats, I have to mentally decrease defenses by one. That's an useless extra operation.
For you, I have no problem, so we're different, but wouldn't it be boring if everyone was the same in this crazy world?!
So what works for you?
4e is a new world - one where attack bonus matters a whole lot more and a +3 bonus to it from a feat is just ridiculous.
Best solution: all characters gain an extra +1 to their attacks and defenses at 11th and 21st levels. Expertise becomes an epic level feat that grants +1 untyped bonus to hit with a chosen weapon group or implement type.
It's not going to happen. I really don't see wizards going back to change this now - they've decided to use a feat to patch broken system math, and that's that. It sucks, but doesn't make the game unplayable. I'm just bitter that the developers are quickly abandoning any and all of the lessons they learned from 3e.
We have no controller in our group and a lamia proved to be very tough to kill as a result. Other monsters prove to be very easy. I can adjust them how I like to suit my pcs - that's what DMs are expected to do!
I mean, unless you're using the ddi character creator, and can't directly mess with the numbers on the power cards....
This isn't a matter of optimization, it's a matter of struggling to remain at baseline (+1 per level, keeping up with monsters). One shouldn't need to purchase expertise multiple times for each weapon/implement. One shouldn't need to fill feet, head and waist slots with NAD boosters. What's needed is for the math to be fixed. I have a pretty easy fix, which solves the problem across the board. My group has started using it as a house rule and so far people seem quite pleased with the results.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1160579
There's also been a neat suggestion on the thread for making weapon/implement expertise into encounter powers rather than outright banning them, once you've implemented a correction to the underlying math problem.
That's true, but at the same time, if you're applying the same fix to every monster, wouldn't it be easier to just tell the PCs to add an extra +1 to hit, so they can write it on their character once, apply it to their rolls themselves, and you don't have to worry about it anymore?
I mean, unless you're using the ddi character creator, and can't directly mess with the numbers on the power cards....
In which case you just house-rule the feat(s) in for them. Fixed!
(Except for crappy things like a Minotaur's Goring Charge, which is just going to suck even worse now. Time to retrain into a Warforged!
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