Yet I want to reconnect our gaming group with the rest of the D&D community who like or are able to tolerate MMORPG D&D. Change and cost aren’t the problem, I like change I feel is good, and I will pay more for less as Wizards thins and stretches release content (I am more than happy to pay writers and artists their due). It is a business after all, and I understand the way the market is going.
However, to earn the business of my gaming group back (and we and many like us are a fair amount of business), we have a shopping list of things I would like to see added. If there is any news on the addition of these, please let me know:
1. Bring back some form of skills and knowledges. Make them balanced and useful. This is sorely lacking, and a main point of disappointment. There is plenty of opportunity to tie this to those skill challenges or whatever that system is in 4th Ed.
2. Crafting. Please. People are creative, let them create.
3. Put some more races and classes in (looks like this is being done…)
4. A little less miniatures wargame, a little more focus on role playing.
Oh yeah, undestroying Forgotten Realms would help, and so would dropping the MMORPG titles for class types. If I wanted to play an MMO, I would go play an MMO.
Thanks.
1. All knowledge skills are still part of the game.
2. After level 1 mundane items are considered mostly worthless, thus any DM will most likely let you craft them in your down time.
3. There are no races and classes that were taken out, nor put in. This is because like every edition 4e is it's own beast with it's own base classes and races.
4. You don't need rules to roleplay, you need rules to resolve conflict.
Noone cares about you. You are not important customers, nor are you the only customers. This thread is entire unnecessary.
1. All knowledge skills are still part of the game.
2. After level 1 mundane items are considered mostly worthless, thus any DM will most likely let you craft them in your down time.
3. There are no races and classes that were taken out, nor put in. This is because like every edition 4e is it's own beast with it's own base classes and races.
4. You don't need rules to roleplay, you need rules to resolve conflict.
And you win the thread. Use it in good health.
2. You can craft without crafting rules. In fact, I think you can craft better without crafting rules. Quick! What's the correct DC to make a decent quality kilt using the Craft: Weaving skill! No one knows. The game won't tell you. It just says stuff like, "if its hard, make it a DC X." That's not a guideline. The DM makes up a number, and then the player takes 10 or 20 and ignores the number. This is exactly the same process you get in a game without explicit crafting rules, where roleplaying is used to handle skills like crafts and professions. Except of course you used an extra, worthless step when you made up a DC and declared that you were taking 10 and ignoring the DC. Professions were the same way. I don't need a system that tells me that you earn exactly as much per week with 5 ranks of Profession: Muck Collector as you do with Profession: Diamond Merchant. I can handle that as a DM or a player by roleplaying.
3. Well, yeah.
4. Odd that you'd say that while trying to turn crafts and professions into a dice game.
5. You also mentioned the "MMORPG" titles for class types. If this bugs you, you should probably go play something else. The only way someone can be bugged by calling "the guy who stands in front and takes the hits" by a catchphrase name like "defender" is if they've chosen to be bugged. "Guy who stands in front and takes the hits" is a concept. There is a need to be able to talk about this concept, because its pretty important, as are the other roles. "Guy who stands in front and takes the hits" is a longwinded and awkward thing to say. Defender is much shorter.
This has been another episode of serious answers for nerds who think that its inherently better to pretend to be an elf in front of other people than anonymously online.
Anyway, snarky responses as I expected. Thanks guys. I was being sincere in wanting to rejoin, just unhappy with some elemetns.
Guess my group of pals are the only ones. Oh well.
And you win the thread. Use it in good health.
Actually he doesn't. This thread is no less or more pertinent than any other thread. Relating what one wants to see in order to return to 4e seems like something that should be encouraged to increase the player base, not derided by cute responses that boil down to "you don't matter and your complaints don't exist in 4e because it doesn't need rules for them!"
Way to wail on someone for trying to express themselves, folks. Considering it's impossible to actually prove whether your view of "what 4e needs" is more or less valid than his, maybe we should just ask ourselves one question:
Do you really want to be kicking people in the nuts when they express an opinion on how a game can be improved?
The "it's good how it is" high ground is not so very high, people.
Actually he doesn't. This thread is no less or more pertinent than any other thread. Relating what one wants to see in order to return to 4e seems like something that should be encouraged to increase the player base, not derided by cute responses that boil down to "you don't matter and your complaints don't exist in 4e because it doesn't need rules for them!"
Way to wail on someone for trying to express themselves, folks. Considering it's impossible to actually prove whether your view of "what 4e needs" is more or less valid than his, maybe we should just ask ourselves one question:
Do you really want to be kicking people in the nuts when they express an opinion on how a game can be improved?
The "it's good how it is" high ground is not so very high, people.
I typed out a 5 paragraph response to this... then decided. :P Would be more appropriate.
I typed out a 5 paragraph response to this... then decided. :P Would be more appropriate.
Fair nuff! We've all got our breaking points, that was one a' mine. :P
Let me just put my feet up, get some Dr. Pepper, and wait a while.
See, as much as people hail the 3.0 crafting rules as wonders for roleplaying potential....they sucked. They were abyssmal. Cataclysmic, perhaps not quite, but certainly dysfunctional.
They had two functions.
1) How long it took to make an item. A spyglass took forever and a day, while you could generate infinite clubs per hour. Using higher quality ingredients made the cake take longer. Most of the rules themselves were inane and pointless, taking the PC so long to construct a suit of plate armor that you might as well say "Time passes. Months later, you have armor. Let's move on."
2) Making money. Walk into town, roll Craft, and suddenly you are making gold. Of course, doesn't matter where the town is, what you are doing, or whether your brand of craft is even related to the people around you, nope, you just make money.
To accurately simulate the economic value of work would be absolutely ridiculous in terms of rules. It takes supply and demand, transplanted onto a supernatural realm. Can the peasants afford a Message ritual? How does teleportation impact the transportation of precious cargo, and what rates are reasonable? Can my blacksmith be expected to obtain work while the fabricating wizard is more potent? How will gender and race influence the Demihuman Relations of a given company?
A lot of people call for rules for running a business, constructing a shop, managing a barony...without realizing that, once the supernatural is taken into account, things get even more complicated than the current world, which is already complex enough.
Now, I'm all for a collection of mini rule sets. Perhaps a gambling subsection, with inclusions for using skills like Bluff and Intimidate to cheat and bully your opponents as opposed to Perception and Insight. Or a transportation section which delves farther into vehicles, with inclusions on specifics aboard a ship, different functions which could require skills, and possible conditions in which to turn a vehicle into dangerous terrain, from the lonely trireme to the dauntless spelljammer. Or a more intricate game of social conflict dealing with intrigue and espionage, with emphasis on opposed forces within a given social setting. If we wanted to expand class roles, we can even through in an extra feature, say, the Knack, which you gain every few levels. Rogues might be able to pick up the ability to reroll a gambling check, Priests might have particular insight into the social sphere, and the wizard might have a Silence, Puny Mortals knack for dealing with crowds.
But unless we want a four hundred page book which can tell us exactly how the dragon's presence next to the town of forty thousand people will impact the trade relations with the hobgoblin kingdom, with a full table based on the dragon's color, the hobgoblin's current state of warfare, and the business in question.......please don't get annoyed by the fact that your fantasy adventure game does not include an economic simulator.
Guess my group of pals are the only ones. Oh well.
It's not that your concerns are unique, it's that they're either invalid or red herrings offered to conceal an irrational distaste for 4e.
I didn't clarify enough in the original post, but it was long enough.
Anyway, snarky responses as I expected. Thanks guys. I was being sincere in wanting to rejoin, just unhappy with some elemetns.
Guess my group of pals are the only ones. Oh well.
You insult the intelligence of 4e fans, you get snarky comments. Look at your op - you'll find that a few of the things you said were not called for. Calling 4e lobotomized - and calling it an mmo (it is not an mmo, and this has been refuted various times on the board already). So, really, what did you expect? If you don't have respect for your audience, then you shall receive none in turn.
EDIT: Also, I do apologize for getting off topic. However, it might be best to let this thread fall by the wayside. I'm really not keen on edition wars - and this thread (by the way the op was worded) could incite one. Anyways, I'm done here.