When you use a monk power with full discipline keyword (which looks like all the at-will and encounter attacks) do you get the option of to use the attack AND movement techniques as long as you got the required action to spend it on?
I'm hoping yes as that would be pretty sweet, but holding my enthusiasm at bay in case my hopes get shot down.
This is covered by the Full Discipline Sidebar on page 68.
You can do both with the at-will powers, but not with the encounter powers; with the encounter powers you have to choose only one of the techniques.
"The number of times you can use a full
discipline power’s techniques during a round
is determined by the power’s type—at-will or
encounter—and by the actions you have available
that round. For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round."
You can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once per round. This means that you can use both the standard and move portions of the same encounter power, but you cannot use the move portion twice by using your standard action, and you cannot use the standard portion twice by using an action point.
You can use the techniques of an encounter full discipline power once per round. This means that you can use both the standard and move portions of the same encounter power, but you cannot use the move portion twice by using your standard action, and you cannot use the standard portion twice by using an action point.
I know, I edited that within 10 seconds of posting. :P
- you can use only one Full Technique power each round, unless you use an AP, that switch the active FT to another when expended.
- you can use the options from your active FT a number of time during the round depending on type:
any amount whit an at-will power.
only once whit an encounter power.
As result:
- you will never be able to use an encounter move and attack techniques in the same round.
- You will never be able to use a move technique and attack technique in the same round unless using an at-will or an AP to switch the active Full Technique.
- You can use a move technique whit an attack power that is not a FT, meaning a Daily or a no-monk encounter power.
This also mean that encounter power recovery effects (divine miracle?) will never lead to infinite loops when there is more than 2 monk encounter powers involved, unless it also produce infinite APs.
nd instead another standart actions? For example a daily?
Or used two times the move?
You can use the move portion of a Full Discipline encounter power once per encounter. You can, additionally, use the attack portion of that same power once per encounter. To use both, you must use them during the same round.
If you use the move portion of a Full Discipline power, you cannot use the move or attack portion of a different Full Discipline power in that same round (unless you spend an action point). Similarly, if you use the attack portion of a Full Discipline power, you cannot use the move or attack portion of a different Full Discipline power (again, unless you spend an action point).
So, let's hypothesize the following at-will Full Discipline power:
[indent]I know Kung-Fu Monk Attack 1
You kung-fu your enemies to oblivion
At-Will ✦ Full Discipline, Psionic, Weapon
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a monk weapon.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is kung-fu'ed until the end of your next turn.
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You kung-fu around the battlefield.[/indent]
And the following encounter Full Discipline power:
[indent]Show Me Monk Attack 1
You show them.
Encounter ✦ Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is shown (save ends).
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You showboat around the battlefield.[/indent]
If I start my turn using my move action to perform the Movement Technique of Show Me, then I can use my standard action that turn to perform the Attack Technique of Show Me. Alternately, I can perform an attack such as a charge that does not have the Full Discipline keyword, [maybe]but if I do so, I won't be able to use the Attack Technique portion of Show Me later in the encounter, as I will have expended the encounter power by using the Movement Technique portion of it[/maybe]**. I cannot, however, use the Attack Technique portion of I Know Kung Fu, because that is a different Full Discipline power than the one I've used this turn. I also can't convert my standard action to a move action to use the Movement Technique of Show Me a second time, because I can only use that portion of the power once per encounter.
If instead I start my turn using the Movement Technique of I Know Kung Fu, I can use my standard action to perform either the Attack Technique or the Movement Technique of I Know Kung Fu, because that power is at-will. I can't, however, use the Attack Technique portion of Show Me, since that's a different Full Discipline power.
Does that clear things up for people?
t~
**edit: upon rereading the Full Discipline sidebar, I'm not sure of this interpretation. It's possible that you can use the movement part of an encounter technique in one round and make a basic attack, and then make a normal move the next round, and use the attack technique of that same encounter power. Anyone see a clear ruling on this?
[indent]Show Me Monk Attack 1
You show them.
Encounter ✦ Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is shown (save ends).
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You showboat around the battlefield.[/indent]
Thank you for this. This made my morning.
If I start my turn using my move action to perform the Movement Technique of Show Me, then I can use my standard action that turn to perform the Attack Technique of Show Me. Alternately, I can perform an attack such as a charge that does not have the Full Discipline keyword, [maybe]but if I do so, I won't be able to use the Attack Technique portion of Show Me later in the encounter, as I will have expended the encounter power by using the Movement Technique portion of it[/maybe]**. I cannot, however, use the Attack Technique portion of I Know Kung Fu, because that is a different Full Discipline power than the one I've used this turn. I also can't convert my standard action to a move action to use the Movement Technique of Show Me a second time, because I can only use that portion of the power once per encounter.
If instead I start my turn using the Movement Technique of I Know Kung Fu, I can use my standard action to perform either the Attack Technique or the Movement Technique of I Know Kung Fu, because that power is at-will. I can't, however, use the Attack Technique portion of Show Me, since that's a different Full Discipline power.
Does that clear things up for people?
t~
I believe you have it right with this interpretation... At least, that's the impression I got from reading the powers and the sidebar... But I have no idea really. I haven't yet been able to actively play-test it (except for in my head) to see how well it works with either of those interpretations.
So, let's hypothesize the following at-will Full Discipline power:
[indent]I know Kung-Fu Monk Attack 1
You kung-fu your enemies to oblivion
At-Will ✦ Full Discipline, Psionic, Weapon
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a monk weapon.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is kung-fu'ed until the end of your next turn.
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You kung-fu around the battlefield.[/indent]
And the following encounter Full Discipline power:
[indent]Show Me Monk Attack 1
You show them.
Encounter ✦ Full Discipline, Implement, Psionic
Attack Technique
Standard Action Melee touch
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target is shown (save ends).
Movement Technique
Move Action Personal
Effect: You showboat around the battlefield.[/indent]
:DI don't see anything preventing a monk from using "Five Storms" to shift 2 right into a U shaped cluster of minions and then executing his daily "Masterful Spiral" to attack all the minions in the cluster, because Masterful Spiral is not Full Discipline. Every other Level 1 power but the dailies, however, are FD, so you basically get 1 per round unless you spend an AP.
Can you choose not to use part of your full discipline? For example, if I want to knock someone prone and then move normally, can I use my regular move action instead of my full discipline move action?
This thread has been really helpful so far. You guys rock.
Can you choose not to use part of your full discipline? For example, if I want to knock someone prone and then move normally, can I use my regular move action instead of my full discipline move action?
I believe so. The text doesn't make use of both components mandatory - it just restricts how many FD's may be used per round.
Can you choose not to use part of your full discipline? For example, if I want to knock someone prone and then move normally, can I use my regular move action instead of my full discipline move action?
Yes, Greebo is correct, the Full Discipline sidebar covers this as well. You can use both the move and the attack, but you don't have to use both. You could use just the attack or just the move.
They would be able to spend a daily, however, so its not a total loss. Just something to consider for the leaders with a Monk in the party.
More than that, the text explicitly lets you use just one half or the other. Same sidebar.
OK - but still, you are going to have to think before tossing an extra action to the Monk.
OK - but still, you are going to have to think before tossing an extra action to the Monk.
All 4 level 1 monk at-will's are full disciple powers. This is really a non issue, I think.
All 4 level 1 monk at-will's are full disciple powers. This is really a non issue, I think.
Then maybe I don't understand how Full Discipline works. The way I read it is as follows:
Monk: Uses Dance of Swords on his turn. He moves 8 spaces around an enemy into a crowd (move), and uses his attack from Dance of Swords (std) to good effect, since the enemy missed with its opportunity attack. No minor taken.
Warlord: Heals someone (minor), moves up to the front line (move), then uses guileful switch (minor). Thinking that giving the striker more attacks is a good thing, he throws the guileful switch action to the Monk.
Monk: Well, thanks for the extra turn, but I can't change my Full Discipline until next round, so all I can do is a basic attack since all my at-wills are also Full Disciplines. If you had told me I could have used my at-will Full Discipline the first time then used it again on my extra turn.
Am I missing something or is that how it would play out?
But : Your turn ends when you use this power, and the ally takes his or her next turn immediately, even if he or she has already acted during this round.
That, to me, reads like the monk says, "Woohoo, new turn!" and would reset the full discipline.
But we'd probably need an official ruling/errata on that...
Ah, I see what you mean...
But : Your turn ends when you use this power, and the ally takes his or her next turn immediately, even if he or she has already acted during this round.
That, to me, reads like the monk says, "Woohoo, new turn!" and would reset the full discipline.
But we'd probably need an official ruling/errata on that...
You can use only one full discipline power per round.
I don't see much of a way around it. I mean its not the end of the world, but something for the Leaders to be aware of.
I don't see much of a way around it. I mean its not the end of the world, but something for the Leaders to be aware of.
Yes but you can only take one turn per round too. Normally.
If action point usage enables change of full discipline, why wouldn't 2nd turn in the same round?
Or maybe its deliberate, and just means that the monk and leader players need to coordinate their plans if they set these up.
This kind of thing is sort of the point of doing a playtest, don't you think? Let the swarming masses of the internet gnaw at the rules until they cry "uncle"? :D
you can use the techniques of an encounter fulldiscipline power once during a round.
Is it due to the plural?
So to avoid a double move action usage of an encounter move technique, and to avoid a double standard action (whit AP or other effects) attack whit the same encounter technique?
It seem so... unnecessarily complicated.
I still do not understand why everyone seem to agree that you can use both of a FD encounter techniques together.
Is it due to the plural?
So to avoid a double move action usage of an encounter move technique, and to avoid a double standard action (whit AP or other effects) attack whit the same encounter technique?
It seem so... unnecessarily complicated.
For example, you can use the
techniques of an at-will full discipline power as
many times during a round as you like, provided
you have enough of the required actions, but
you can use the techniques of an encounter full
discipline power once during a round.
That's exactly it.
You could do a double move with dancing cobra and move your speed + 2, twice. You could not, however, use drunken monkey and move speed +2 twice ignoring difficult terrain.
"you can use the techniques (there are 2) of an encounter power once during the round" - equates to "you may use EACH technique of an encounter FD power once during the round".
The text could be clearer.
I'll have to wait for PH3 to see about this.
So unlike every other class's encounter powers, monk encounter powers are both a move and an attack,
Yes
and they are separate? And people are reaching this conclusion based on the letter "s"?
No
I'll have to wait for PH3 to see about this.
Maybe.
That is according to a sidebar describing powers with a certain keyword (which all monk at-wills and attack encounters that we know of have) we know that monks can use an attack and a move with one encounter or at-will.
As to weather that will make it to PHB3..... Well I imagine it will change somewhat, but we shall see.
So unlike every other class's encounter powers, monk encounter powers are both a move and an attack, and they are separate? And people are reaching this conclusion based on the letter "s"?
I'll have to wait for PH3 to see about this.
I'm reaching that conclusion based on the sidebar in the playtest and the following excerpt from the Design and Development article discussing the Monk:[indent]We wanted the monk to feel like a mobile combatant, and the full disciplines allow us an opportunity to give the monk special movement abilities, hearkening back to the fleet-footed monks of previous editions. Using the full discipline power format, we can let the monk shift 2 squares with a move action, or move a little faster, or jump great distances, all essentially at-will. The movement techniques in the encounter full disciplines open up space for monks that run on water or up walls or even fly.
One challenge presented by the full discipline powers was trying to find ways to let the monk have interesting move techniques without completely overshadowing movement-related utility powers, not to mention other classes that only get an attack in an encounter power, not an attack and a move. Ultimately, we determined that full disciplines are kind of like having interesting movement modes built in as class features, but the player must choose not only which techniques he'll have access to but also must weigh both the movement and attack components of each discipline.
We had to scale back the power level of the at-will movement techniques, and we categorized them into four buckets, which formed the basis for most of the encounter-level movement techniques. Those buckets were essentially: shift 2 squares, move at speed +2, jump really far, and swap positions with an adjacent ally.
Mike: This approach was huge for designing the class. Up until this point, an attack power could grant only a minor movement effect unless the designer wanted to cripple the attack's offense. Since the monk is a striker, that wasn't much of an option.
With a full discipline, though, we need to bleed only a small part of an attack's hitting power to give it a compelling movement component. Since the power requires your move action, you're already paying most of the "cost" for that move.[/indent]
t~
They could have make all of the monks at-will and encounter powers stances and live whit it, it seem more practical to me.
That's a reasonable solution, but leaves us with a major problem. Actual stances such as this one, would cancel as soon as you used an At-Will power:
Centered Defense Monk Utility 6
You breath deeply. With your center strong, you calmly
avoid enemy attacks.
Daily ✦ Psionic, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: Until the stance ends, you gain a +2 power
bonus to all defenses.
They've obviously had to keep them separate for this reason. As it works out though, I like the way they've implemented it. Full Discipline works the same way a stance does, but they are temporary and will change round to round.
At-will = Move Technique + Move Technique or Move Technique + Attack Technique or Standard Move + Attack Technique or Move Technique + Basic Attack
Encounter = Move Technique + Attack Technique or Standard Move + Attack Technique or Move Technique + Basic Attack
Minor actions are not effected by Full Discipline Powers.
Pretty simple.
At-will =
Move Technique + Move Technique
or
Move Technique + Attack Technique
or
Standard Move + Attack Technique
or
Move Technique + Basic Attack (useful for Ranged attacks)
Encounter =
Move Technique + Attack Technique
or
Standard Move + Attack Technique
or
Move Technique + Basic Attack (useful for Ranged attacks)
... So, basically, is the only difference the fact that the at-will can make a double move tech (or triple minor) and encounter can not?
Really, they need to make the sidebar more clear...
or
At-will Move Technique + Basic Attack (useful for Ranged attacks)
or
Encounter Move Technique + Basic Attack (useful for Ranged attacks)
I thought of putting those 2 in as well.
So, basically, is the only difference the fact that the At-will can make a double move tech (or triple minor) and Encounter can not?
The difference is just as you stated. An at-will can use its Move Technique twice in a round (3 times if you bust out an Action Point) but an encounter can only use its Move Technique and/or its Attack Technique once in the round (even if you spend an Action Point you must use another power at that point).
Really, they need to make the sidebar more clear...
Myself and the couple of friends that I spoke with read the sidebar to work as I put in my example above.
As I understand things:
At will FD: can use both parts at least once, can use each more than once if you have enough actions (free actions, AP use, etc.)
Encounter FD: can use both parts only once as long as you have enough actions for each part. Extra actions you'd have to use a daily (since these aren't FDs), utility power, or a basic attack, standard move, or a minor action.
Action Point usage allows you to switch to a different FD (either at-will or encounter) should you want to.
Daily and Utility powers are never FDs.
The chances of using an encounter FD and ending up with a non-AP granted extra move or standard action aren't high. Also the move actions from FDs aren't huge bonuses though obviously can have tactical advantages. The attack is the bigger issue and they may want to change the wording for FD restrictions to cover the issue.
Maybe it should only be an encounter FD you can only use the techniques within it once per turn instead of round, but can only switch to another FD at the beginning of your next turn. This would allow you to use your FD attack or move again on the leader's turn when they grant an action, but unlike other classes you couldn't choose to use another encounter or at-will attack (but could choose to use a utility or daily) while still locking in your FD until your next turn and preventing you from using the encounter FD techniques only once on your turn (or anothers turn).
This:
At-will = Move Technique + Move Technique or Move Technique + Attack Technique or Standard Move + Attack Technique or Move Technique + Basic Attack
Encounter = Move Technique + Attack Technique or Standard Move + Attack Technique or Move Technique + Basic Attack
Minor actions are not effected by Full Discipline Powers.
Pretty simple.
That's my understanding as well. HOWEVER here's another case.
Encounter = Move Technique (Drunken Monkey) + Second Wind NEXT TURN Attack Technique (Drunken Monkey) + Standard Move
Is the above possible?
My interpretation is it isn't. But I thought I'd check to see what others think. If my interpretation is wrong, Monks essentially get twice as many encounter powers as everyone else (although the encounter powers are suitable weakened to compensate).
If action point usage enables change of full discipline, why wouldn't 2nd turn in the same round?
A fair point. And completely worth ruling in home games if you so choose.
However technically by RAW getting a new turn isn't the same as with spending an action point. Given how overpowered Guileful Switch is (IMO. If it gave an ally a standard action that would be much less powerful), I'm going to want an explicit declaration from WotC that Guileful Switch allows the Monk to change his Full Discipline.
Also it only takes 2 seconds to avoid any trouble:
Warlord: Monk. Did you use an At-Will on your turn?
Monk: Yes/No.
The Warlord now either uses Guileful Switch or doesn't. Sure that nerfs the combination of Warlord and Monk and can be seen as arbitrary and unfair (why not also nerf Warlords and other strikers?). But its the closest thing to a nerf for the power without actually nerfing it.
I still do not understand why everyone seem to agree that you can use both of a FD encounter techniques together.
It comes from the assumption that the movement technique is suppose to be used in conjunction with the attack technique.
It could be this assumption is wrong. But IMO common sense says it isn't wrong.
Really, they need to make the sidebar more clear...
Yes they do.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18566034&postcount=116
Basically, I'm pretty sure you can only use one technique from an encounter full discipline power, and then only once during the encounter, not to mention round.
Basically, I'm pretty sure you can only use one technique from an encounter full discipline power, and then only once during the encounter, not to mention round.
Basically, you're wrong. ;)
Basically, you're wrong. ;)
I know you are, but what am I?
I posted on the subject of encounter full discipline techniques in another thread. Here is the link.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=18566034&postcount=116
Basically, I'm pretty sure you can only use one technique from an encounter full discipline power, and then only once during the encounter, not to mention round.
Your assumption is incorrect however
I stand corrected.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=18567096#post18567096