PHB2 will have new classes and new power sources; will it also have new deities?
I imagine that the primal source could easily be tied to Melora, and Bards might be able to be tied to Ioun somehow, but I still wonder if perhaps new deities will ever be introduced.
I dunno, I always found gods like that more interesting then the super-powerful, classical mythology angle of gods.
As for new gods, unless it is a Campaign setting I doubt they will give us new core gods. They covered their bases pretty well with the new gods I think. Any type of god you specifically looking for?
Its easier to just put those rumours, or facts if the god is real, into your game. Quick rule for it is; if the PCs need to fight it chances are it should be a solo or elite creature. If they don't need to fight the local god then don't worry about statting them.
As for new gods, unless it is a Campaign setting I doubt they will give us new core gods. They covered their bases pretty well with the new gods I think. Any type of god you specifically looking for?
I was just curious if some of the new power sources and/or classes might bring with them new cosmology fluff. Perhaps someone similar to Oldimarra for Bards.
I was just curious if some of the new power sources and/or classes might bring with them new cosmology fluff. Perhaps someone similar to Oldimarra for Bards.
You know you can make them yourself right? Dieties are pretty much the easiest thing to make in the game.
As for the default pantheon, a pantheon is not really that evolving save for campaign story lines. A new book won't just introduce a bunch of new gods for S*@#$ and giggles and expect you to suddenly wedge them into your game as if they have always been there and you are just now running into their temples.
The default pantheon covers everything you need. Not every class needs its own cookie-cutter patron. The default gods have a more broad appeal. A god of thieves was a narrow concept, so Oldimara got incorporated into Avandra, to appeal to anyone who likes risk, adventure, high reward, and mischief.
You know you can make them yourself right? Dieties are pretty much the easiest thing to make in the game.
As for the default pantheon, a pantheon is not really that evolving save for campaign story lines. A new book won't just introduce a bunch of new gods for S*@#$ and giggles and expect you to suddenly wedge them into your game as if they have always been there and you are just now running into their temples.
The default pantheon covers everything you need. Not every class needs its own cookie-cutter patron. The default gods have a more broad appeal. A god of thieves was a narrow concept, so Oldimara got incorporated into Avandra, to appeal to anyone who likes risk, adventure, high reward, and mischief.
Yes, I'm aware I can make them myself. My curiosity is asking if the new PHBs will bring new fluff with them.
Most of those who have responded are right though; I'd be surprised to see new core deities; still, I have to wonder if the new power sources will be seen as an opportunity to reveal more pieces of the 4E cosmology fluff.
I had originally assumed that the answer to this question would be no, but as I think more I am left pondering.
PHB2 will have new classes and new power sources; will it also have new deities?
I imagine that the primal source could easily be tied to Melora, and Bards might be able to be tied to Ioun somehow, but I still wonder if perhaps new deities will ever be introduced.
Tying the other power sources to gods defeats the purpose of power sources; they become divine. Primal is primal, arcane is arcane, divine is divine.
Tying the other power sources to gods defeats the purpose of power sources; they become divine. Primal is primal, arcane is arcane, divine is divine.
That's not how I meant what I said to be taken, but very true.
Tying the other power sources to gods defeats the purpose of power sources; they become divine. Primal is primal, arcane is arcane, divine is divine.
Going along with this: what are the odds that we'll see new gods in Divine Power? I guess the main problem is that deities are setting info (and thus belong in DM-aimed books), while the Channel Divinity feats are character options (and thus belong in player-themed books). If they go anywhere, I would guess either Complete Divine or an as-yet-unannounced Deities and Demigods type book.
If they are going to be included, I think there should be one since they did not change Corellon's prime focus.
I dunno if we will see any new ordinary D&D deities. But I would love to see more local, intimate god. Like the kind of god you hear about that lives in the nearby forest in the form of a wolf and watches over that forest and just that forest.
I dunno, I always found gods like that more interesting then the super-powerful, classical mythology angle of gods.
Yeah, kind of the Princess Mononoke approach. I like that too. I think the Primal Spirits could possibly fill the role of local nature gods.
I'm pretty sure that the Primal power source is covered by Primordials (duh). They might be introduced in the PHB2 (although they exist in the FRCG/PG already: Kossuth (fire), Akadi (air), and three others (water, earth, and nastiness)).
Primordials built the world but I think they're considered to be of the Elemental Chaos. So if any power source is tied to them I assume it's Elemental. The Primal power source is supposed to be associated with the natural world and the spirits of nature.
But I hope that they give us more detail on the existing gods instead. There is a lot of potential in the gods we have, WotC just hasn't told us much about them yet.
is that, and what does that mean this character believes?" (A very real potential problem among new players in the Realms.)I vote, "No new core deities!" There's plenty of room for exarchs and demigods for whatever role you like, but there's no need to clutter up the cosmology with tens of dozens of redundant gods.
I like that we've got nice, comfortable pantheon in 4E. It's broad enough that pretty much everything fits in there, but it's also tight enough that you never have to find yourself thinking, "The NPC is a Cleric of _____? Who the
I vote, "No new core deities!" There's plenty of room for exarchs and demigods for whatever role you like, but there's no need to clutter up the cosmology with tens of dozens of redundant gods.
from my previous post:
This brings to mind another question. Although I'm not sure there is a difference between the PHB and the FRCG, in at least one Corellon has the portfolio element of fey. (As a note, in the FRCG Corellon is good, I believe,as opposed to unaligned.) In the previous edition, the elven race was his main portfolio element, basically the same thing. In previous editions, the chief element of Gruumsh was the orcish race but I believe that it is now savagery. It may be something different, but it is no longer orcs. This wouldn't be much of a big deal with orcs/half-orcs removed as player characters. However, it seems to be unfair to have Corellon looking out for fey interests (PCs being elves, half-elves and eladrins, although I'm not sure if the first two are technically fey they are close enough...) without a similar one to look after half-orcs which will be included in the PHB2.
If they are going to be included, I think there should be one since they did not change Corellon's prime focus.
Since one core deity, Corellon, overwhelmingly is representative of two races and closely related to a third with the fey portfolio element, why would it be redundant or not useful to add a deity with a similar relation to races added in the PHB2? (As stated in the quote from my previous post, Gruumsh has had his racial element removed from his portfolio.)
Since one core deity, Corellon, overwhelmingly is representative of two races and closely related to a third with the fey portfolio element, why would it be redundant or not useful to add a deity with a similar relation to races added in the PHB2? (As stated in the quote from my previous post, Gruumsh has had his racial element removed from his portfolio.)
I like that in 4E, there's not "racial gods", only racial/cultural preferences for certain gods. I would really, really prefer if there wasn't a new god for every new race that got published.
That said, you forget that Elves often worship Sehanine in 4E, while Eladrin like Corellon, and Drow like Lolth. Those three deities form a sort of "Fey sub-pantheon". However, in 4E the assumption is that deities do not have races; their race is "deity", and that means they can take the form of any and every race they choose to. The fact that Moradin likes to take the form of a Dwarf, and Corellon prefers to appear as an Eladrin is inconsequential to most worshipers, who worship them not for their race but for their portfolio. The "racial preference" for a given deity comes from the overlap between that race's cultural values and the deity's portfolio.
Orcs worship Gruumsh because he represents what Orcs like to do, not because Gruumsh is an Orc.
I like that in 4E, there's not "racial gods", only racial/cultural preferences for certain gods. I would really, really prefer if there wasn't a new god for every new race that got published.
That said, you forget that Elves often worship Sehanine in 4E, while Eladrin like Corellon, and Drow like Lolth. Those three deities form a sort of "Fey sub-pantheon". However, in 4E the assumption is that deities do not have races; their race is "deity", and that means they can take the form of any and every race they choose to. The fact that Moradin likes to take the form of a Dwarf, and Corellon prefers to appear as an Eladrin is inconsequential to most worshipers, who worship them not for their race but for their portfolio. The "racial preference" for a given deity comes from the overlap between that race's cultural values and the deity's portfolio.
Orcs worship Gruumsh because he represents what Orcs like to do, not because Gruumsh is an Orc.
No, I did not forget about the other two and no, they do not form a subpantheon. I was explicitly referring to portfolio elements and not followers. Although I am not sure what it states in the PHB, in the FRCG it explicitly states that the portfolio of Corellon is fey. So, there are racial gods in 4th edition. All Forgotten Realms books are explicitly interchangeable with the core books. Why should fey get one but not any other races? Also, this does not lead to overlap as was stated in a previous post if the portfolio element is a race.
Also fey is an origin without specifications of race. The fey origin in general is a lot wider than it was in 3e as it includes not just humanoids but also magical beasts such as the displacers as well as the plant-like dryads. Most of the other gods have followers of "natural" origin or universal passions.
I like that we've got nice, comfortable pantheon in 4E. It's broad enough that pretty much everything fits in there, but it's also tight enough that you never have to find yourself thinking, "The NPC is a Cleric of _____? Who the
I vote, "No new core deities!" There's plenty of room for exarchs and demigods for whatever role you like, but there's no need to clutter up the cosmology with tens of dozens of redundant gods.
I agree. One of the things I hated about 3e FR was the fact that there were, literally, over a hundred gods, many of whom overlapped or were so similar there was simply no need for there to be two of them. One of the improvements 4e made to FR was trimming them down to a reasonable number (as well as flushing the 'racial pantheon' crud).
I agree. One of the things I hated about 3e FR was the fact that there were, literally, over a hundred gods, many of whom overlapped or were so similar there was simply no need for there to be two of them. One of the improvements 4e made to FR was trimming them down to a reasonable number (as well as flushing the 'racial pantheon' crud).
Why hate it? If there was a deity that you wanted to use, just use it. If not, why not let someone else use it?
As to the overlap, there existed a multitude of pantheons in the setting. That was a great deal of the character which belonged to it. The Unapproachable East had a region with an Egyptian flair and pantheon. It also had a region with a Mesopotamaian flair and pantheon. There was Kara-tur with the Celestial Bureaucracy influenced by Chinese mythology. The various racial pantheons added an immense amount of useful background information.
The point is that all these deities created an immense and colorful background to a specific setting. The Forgotten Realms was not a generic setting. It had a wealth of lore and material associated with it. It was not the generic nonsense that it is now.
While discussing nonsense, about this sentence in particular:
One of the things I hated about 3e FR was the fact that there were, literally, over a hundred gods, many of whom overlapped or were so similar there was simply no need for there to be two of them.
Guess what, there is no need for any deities in core or any other setting. Deities are added for lore and fluff. As previously stated, the numbers of deities were part of a great intertwined web of canon lore that made up the game world. That is why there may have been overlap. But, to repeat, that doesn't matter because all deities are non-essential. They are all for fluff, background and lore. It is sad that Wotc had to change its setting because so many could not handle such a simple concept.
To any thinking otherwise, I am not trying to flame an edition war. I am merely responding in kind to a poster trying to flame an edition war. So, everyone should just drop it and leave it at that. I am posting in this part of the forum to ask 4th edition questions about the PHB2. But, if anyone wishes to continue such nonsense, I will happily oblige.
You call it 'lore', I call it 'clutter'.
Amazing, how an answer comes that does nothing to counter the points being made. Such an answer is worthless.
Please, explain why such lore that you call clutter is so. Why is it clutter when it saves countless DMs time in creation? Why is it clutter when countless characters use the immense lore to create a multitude of characters with depth? If it simply is a matter of a DM not wanting players to use some things, it has always been within the rights of a DM to do so regardless of setting lore. Calling something clutter is nonsense.
I will repeat, it is a shame that WotC has had to deal with customers incapable of understanding such simple concepts...
No, I did not forget about the other two and no, they do not form a subpantheon. I was explicitly referring to portfolio elements and not followers. Although I am not sure what it states in the PHB, in the FRCG it explicitly states that the portfolio of Corellon is fey. So, there are racial gods in 4th edition. All Forgotten Realms books are explicitly interchangeable with the core books.
Here's your first false assumption. No, the campaign setting books are not "explicitly interchangeable with the core books." You need your core books (PH1, DMG1, and MM1) to play.
What you're thinking of is that the campaign settings are being presented in such a way that "poaching" of elements from one setting into another -- particularly mechanical elements -- is easy. This is a long way from assuming that anything in the FRCG automatically applies to 4E core.
Why should fey get one but not any other races?
Like The_Fae said, "Fey" is an origin, not a race. Beyond that, nothing says you can do whatever you want in your home game. Hell, that's exactly what the point of "making settings poachable" was; to make it easier for you to take things from books like FRCG and add it to your home game, even if it isn't set in the Realms.
Also, this does not lead to overlap as was stated in a previous post if the portfolio element is a race.
Again, "fey" is an origin, not a race. Other origins are "natural", "shadow", "immortal", "elemental", and "aberrant", and that's all. That said, I know that you'll probably argue Lolth is a better example, because her portfolio is listed as "Drow", and Drow is a race, to which I will respond what I did before: What the FRCG says is not the default assumption in 4E core! My 4E PH lists Lolth's sphere of influence as "shadows, lies, and spiders", and only mentions that Drow often worship Lolth.
Why hate it? If there was a deity that you wanted to use, just use it. If not, why not let someone else use it?
You don't seem to realize how problematic a large pantheon can be, Rumplestix, and so I'm going to suggest that you've got it backwards. Since you obviously want to use lots of deities in your game, why don't you simply do that? You obviously have access to both a Player's Handbook and a copy of the FRCG, so why not just use all those deities (and any others you like) in your home game?
For most of us, the twenty-one deities presented between the 4E PH and DMG are more than enough. They are presented broadly enough that worshipers of any common theme or idea fits under that twenty-one deity umbrella, and present a ton of opportunities for positive and negative interactions between deities, deities and churches, deities and followers, churches and other churchs, and followers with other followers. That complexity enough for most every conceivable religious plot right there, all without making players and DMs memorize hundreds of different fictional gods, each representing a different obscure corner case, mostly uninteresting to the average D&Der.
Better still, the 4E default kicks the door open for DMs and players to add divinities for anything they prefer, in the form of "exarchs" in the service of any of the main deities. (Note how similar this is to the FRCG's notion of "greater gods" and "lesser gods".) This is the perfect role for "minor gods" and demigods, because there's no assumption that every DM needs to know about them in their game; DMs only need to remember the exarchs that the actually plan to use.
As to the overlap, there existed a multitude of pantheons in the setting. That was a great deal of the character which belonged to it. The Unapproachable East had a region with an Egyptian flair and pantheon. It also had a region with a Mesopotamaian flair and pantheon. There was Kara-tur with the Celestial Bureaucracy influenced by Chinese mythology. The various racial pantheons added an immense amount of useful background information.
The point is that all these deities created an immense and colorful background to a specific setting. The Forgotten Realms was not a generic setting. It had a wealth of lore and material associated with it. It was not the generic nonsense that it is now.
You don't see a problem with this? Not only was there literally dozens of deities from Faerun alone, but dozens more from every outside corner of the world, as well, plus another dozen or so from most races, for a grand total of literally hundreds of distinct divinities of various power levels.
The problem with that is that it's absolutely daunting to the most important people in D&D: potential new players. The idea that one needs to remember the who, what, where, and why of more than a hundred gods is in order to "get the game right" is a terrifying prospect for anyone, not to mention remembering how these deities, religions, and pantheons all get along with one another! Given that, frankly, the majority of players and DMs probably almost never used ninety-percent of those deities in their games suggests that most of it was unnecessary for those players and DMs.
More importantly, though, we're not talking about the Realms here; we're talking about the suggestion that future Player's Handbooks include more deities. Since the default setting in 4E is not the Realms, there's even less reason to include scores of deities where a mere handful is sufficient. As a DM, it's nice to be able to open a published adventure and read that the villain is a cultist of Vecna, and know exactly what that means for my game and my players.
Here's your first false assumption. No, the campaign setting books are not "explicitly interchangeable with the core books." You need your core books (PH1, DMG1, and MM1) to play.
What you're thinking of is that the campaign settings are being presented in such a way that "poaching" of elements from one setting into another -- particularly mechanical elements -- is easy. This is a long way from assuming that anything in the FRCG automatically applies to 4E core.
Like The_Fae said, "Fey" is an origin, not a race. Beyond that, nothing says you can do whatever you want in your home game. Hell, that's exactly what the point of "making settings poachable" was; to make it easier for you to take things from books like FRCG and add it to your home game, even if it isn't set in the Realms.
Again, "fey" is an origin, not a race. Other origins are "natural", "shadow", "immortal", "elemental", and "aberrant", and that's all. That said, I know that you'll probably argue Lolth is a better example, because her portfolio is listed as "Drow", and Drow is a race, to which I will respond what I did before: What the FRCG says is not the default assumption in 4E core! My 4E PH lists Lolth's sphere of influence as "shadows, lies, and spiders", and only mentions that Drow often worship Lolth.
You don't seem to realize how problematic a large pantheon can be, Rumplestix, and so I'm going to suggest that you've got it backwards. Since you obviously want to use lots of deities in your game, why don't you simply do that? You obviously have access to both a Player's Handbook and a copy of the FRCG, so why not just use all those deities (and any others you like) in your home game?
For most of us, the twenty-one deities presented between the 4E PH and DMG are more than enough. They are presented broadly enough that worshipers of any common theme or idea fits under that twenty-one deity umbrella, and present a ton of opportunities for positive and negative interactions between deities, deities and churches, deities and followers, churches and other churchs, and followers with other followers. That complexity enough for most every conceivable religious plot right there, all without making players and DMs memorize hundreds of different fictional gods, each representing a different obscure corner case, mostly uninteresting to the average D&Der.
Better still, the 4E default kicks the door open for DMs and players to add divinities for anything they prefer, in the form of "exarchs" in the service of any of the main deities. (Note how similar this is to the FRCG's notion of "greater gods" and "lesser gods".) This is the perfect role for "minor gods" and demigods, because there's no assumption that every DM needs to know about them in their game; DMs only need to remember the exarchs that the actually plan to use.
You don't see a problem with this? Not only was there literally dozens of deities from Faerun alone, but dozens more from every outside corner of the world, as well, plus another dozen or so from most races, for a grand total of literally hundreds of distinct divinities of various power levels.
The problem with that is that it's absolutely daunting to the most important people in D&D: potential new players. The idea that one needs to remember the who, what, where, and why of more than a hundred gods is in order to "get the game right" is a terrifying prospect for anyone, not to mention remembering how these deities, religions, and pantheons all get along with one another! Given that, frankly, the majority of players and DMs probably almost never used ninety-percent of those deities in their games suggests that most of it was unnecessary for those players and DMs.
More importantly, though, we're not talking about the Realms here; we're talking about the suggestion that future Player's Handbooks include more deities. Since the default setting in 4E is not the Realms, there's even less reason to include scores of deities where a mere handful is sufficient. As a DM, it's nice to be able to open a published adventure and read that the villain is a cultist of Vecna, and know exactly what that means for my game and my players.
First, about this:
Here's your first false assumption. No, the campaign setting books are not "explicitly interchangeable with the core books." You need your core books (PH1, DMG1, and MM1) to play.
Put simply, you are wrong. I never said the core books were not necessary and yes they are explicitly useable with all settings. they were written that way.
To further expound on the point:
What you're thinking of is that the campaign settings are being presented in such a way that "poaching" of elements from one setting into another -- particularly mechanical elements -- is easy. This is a long way from assuming that anything in the FRCG automatically applies to 4E core.
Of course, I was talking about the Core deity, Corellon and not about all the lore. However, this is a minor detail compared to the rest:
Like The_Fae said, "Fey" is an origin, not a race. Beyond that, nothing says you can do whatever you want in your home game. Hell, that's exactly what the point of "making settings poachable" was; to make it easier for you to take things from books like FRCG and add it to your home game, even if it isn't set in the Realms.
If you are talking about fluff, there was never anything to stop people from using it before. There was no 'making it easier' to it. If you are talking about classes and mechanics, they are explicitly part of core after the book came out. That is a simple statement of fact. There is no poaching, so to speak.
I believe this should take a little space:
Again, "fey" is an origin, not a race. Other origins are "natural", "shadow", "immortal", "elemental", and "aberrant", and that's all. That said, I know that you'll probably argue Lolth is a better example, because her portfolio is listed as "Drow", and Drow is a race, to which I will respond what I did before: What the FRCG says is not the default assumption in 4E core! My 4E PH lists Lolth's sphere of influence as "shadows, lies, and spiders", and only mentions that Drow often worship Lolth.
[/QUOTE
You should followthe responses of your own posts. First you stated:I like that in 4E, there's not "racial gods", only racial/cultural preferences for certain gods. I would really, really prefer if there wasn't a new god for every new race that got published.
To which I responded with (among other things):Also, this does not lead to overlap as was stated in a previous post if the portfolio element is a race.
And you responded with this:Again, "fey" is an origin, not a race. Other origins are "natural", "shadow", "immortal", "elemental", and "aberrant", and that's all. That said, I know that you'll probably argue Lolth is a better example, because her portfolio is listed as "Drow", and Drow is a race, to which I will respond what I did before: What the FRCG says is not the default assumption in 4E core! My 4E PH lists Lolth's sphere of influence as "shadows, lies, and spiders", and only mentions that Drow often worship Lolth.
First, you are making the argument that fey is an origin to counter what I said about including races in portfolio elements would not be redundant. That makes no sense even if I give complete acceptance to your definition of fey. However, having an 'origin' as the interpretation of a portfolio element seems silly. Portfolios are fluff, not mechanics. If a deity's portfolio is shadow, it does not mean the 'origin' shadow. To go further, which deities have the portfolio elements: origin 'immortal', origin 'elemental', or (with a laugh...) 'origin' natural. Having an origin as a portfolio is nonsense. With respect to his portfolio, it means what fey has always meant: elves and their relatives (sprites, etc.) But still, what does this have to do with you arguing about disliking racial deities and complaining about things being redundant? By the way, Lolth never entered my head.
About this:The problem with that is that it's absolutely daunting to the most important people in D&D: potential new players. The idea that one needs to remember the who, what, where, and why of more than a hundred gods is in order to "get the game right" is a terrifying prospect for anyone, not to mention remembering how these deities, religions, and pantheons all get along with one another! Given that, frankly, the majority of players and DMs probably almost never used ninety-percent of those deities in their games suggests that most of it was unnecessary for those players and DMs.
About the first two sentences. That is nonsense. The idea that you would have to memorize all that information to 'get the game right' is utter nonsense. Which means that someone being terrified by it is nonsense. Should we make all the rulebooks on audio without being printed because some people can't read? The two make about as much sense.
About the last, none of this is 'necessary' because it is all fluff. In essence, your complaint is that it is excessive because it supplies more than the bare bones that is necessary to play. Nonsense. From my own personal experience, that 90% does receive a lot of use. Also, from many I have seen posting in the FR board, they receive a lot of use. If you look at all the fans you read every book about FR elves ever printed, you know they are interested in and use a number of the now removed Seldarine pantheon.
About this:More importantly, though, we're not talking about the Realms here; we're talking about the suggestion that future Player's Handbooks include more deities. Since the default setting in 4E is not the Realms, there's even less reason to include scores of deities where a mere handful is sufficient. As a DM, it's nice to be able to open a published adventure and read that the villain is a cultist of Vecna, and know exactly what that means for my game and my players.
This started when I stated that 'fey' was listed as a part of Corellon's portfolio. Since, I could not remember for certain off the top of my head what his folio is in the PHB, if referenced in my head from the FRCG. If 'fey' is not in his PHB portfolio, then I will say the previos point about their being other races with 'deities' doesn't matter. If it is, see my points above. But, I shouldn't really argue with you for actually pushing the discussion back to the topic.
The next is kind of a mixed bag:You don't seem to realize how problematic a large pantheon can be, Rumplestix, and so I'm going to suggest that you've got it backwards. Since you obviously want to use lots of deities in your game, why don't you simply do that? You obviously have access to both a Player's Handbook and a copy of the FRCG, so why not just use all those deities (and any others you like) in your home game?
For most of us, the twenty-one deities presented between the 4E PH and DMG are more than enough. They are presented broadly enough that worshipers of any common theme or idea fits under that twenty-one deity umbrella, and present a ton of opportunities for positive and negative interactions between deities, deities and churches, deities and followers, churches and other churchs, and followers with other followers. That complexity enough for most every conceivable religious plot right there, all without making players and DMs memorize hundreds of different fictional gods, each representing a different obscure corner case, mostly uninteresting to the average D&Der.
First, as I have stated it is problematic only if people are being silly.
I wasn't 'calling out' 4th edition for doing a 'bad thing'. I did not go into a 'tirade' about how good the extensive pantheon of the FR was to rip on 4th edition. A poster (Salla?) went on an anti 3rd edition tirade and called it crud. Before that, I was merely disagreeing with your stating extra deities would be redundant and stating a desire for racial deities.
The problem about just using them in my home game is that they are no longer 'supported', that means WotC will put out no new information. In fact, in 4th edition FR, if they are not listed, they are dead. Somehow, you seem to think it is harder to ignore information given in sourcebooks than it is to create new and viable information. If that were the case, there would never, ever have been written a single module.
And the last sentence about obscure corner cases: why would you consider a player with a dwarf PC looking for a deity to pray to whose concern is the dwarven race, an obscure corner case? Is a player of an elf wishing to worship a deity whose primary concern (portfolio element) is the elven race an obscure corner case? A halfling looking for a deity (like Yondalla) who has halflings as a primary concern, is that an obscure corner case. These have been staple concepts for years. Of course, I (or anyone else) can do what I want and ignore current portfolios, but I believe it is a perfectly reasonable request for support in the PHB2. There is every reason for it, it is not obscure, and it is not redundant.
First, as I have stated it is problematic only if people are being silly.
I wasn't 'calling out' 4th edition for doing a 'bad thing'. I did not go into a 'tirade' about how good the extensive pantheon of the FR was to rip on 4th edition. A poster (Salla?) went on an anti 3rd edition tirade and called it crud. Before that, I was merely disagreeing with your stating extra deities would be redundant and stating a desire for racial deities.
The problem about just using them in my home game is that they are no longer 'supported', that means WotC will put out no new information. In fact, in 4th edition FR, if they are not listed, they are dead. Somehow, you seem to think it is harder to ignore information given in sourcebooks than it is to create new and viable information. If that were the case, there would never, ever have been written a single module.
And the last sentence about obscure corner cases: why would you consider a player with a dwarf PC looking for a deity to pray to whose concern is the dwarven race, an obscure corner case? Is a player of an elf wishing to worship a deity whose primary concern (portfolio element) is the elven race an obscure corner case? A halfling looking for a deity (like Yondalla) who has halflings as a primary concern, is that an obscure corner case. These have been staple concepts for years. Of course, I (or anyone else) can do what I want and ignore current portfolios, but I believe it is a perfectly reasonable request for support in the PHB2. There is every reason for it, it is not obscure, and it is not redundant.
Okay, let's boil this conflict down to its core. Correct me if you think I have this wrong:
- RUMPLESTIX: Wants to see more deities in future core supplements, because the religious lore adds to his D&D game.
- Dr Hook: Doesn't want to see any more deities in future core supplements, because the existing deities already cover the majority of concepts in a concise way.
If we start from scratch with simple arguments, we might still be able to hold a reasonable debate about this without confusing everyone with long posts.
Religious lore is nice, especially when given both good and evil deities (which I think we could use more good ones actually). I just don't want racial deities because it seems like the design of a racial deities pushes the player to make his character of that race just because of it instead of looking at the rest of the portfolio.
Also to finish off the 100s v 2 dozen, why not just use the 3e info for the gods? If you want them there chances are you will want the same portfolios which I am sure they mention somewhere. The support is there, and it is pretty much "edition-proof". (As far as I know without actually looking back for a list of these gods)
Edit: It should also be noted that Corellon (Core) has fey as his portfolio, not sure about FR Corellon. I am also under the idea that if any new deities should come out that they be put out in Divine Powers. So they can do the channel divinity feats there and save room for broader feats in the next PHB or feats specific to things in said PHB.
) I have a plane that leaves in 6 1/2 hours.@DH
That is roughly the gist. But mainly, I have always liked the racial deities and pantheons.
@the Fae
About this:
Also to finish off the 100s v 2 dozen, why not just use the 3e info for the gods? If you want them there chances are you will want the same portfolios which I am sure they mention somewhere. The support is there, and it is pretty much "edition-proof". (As far as I know without actually looking back for a list of these gods)
In the Ask the Realms Designer's thread (sorry, I'm not going to make a link...), it was explicitly stated that any deities not listed in the two books (FRCG and FRPG) are, well, dead. They have been dead for roughly 100 years in the setting. Technically, the Mulhorandi (Egyptian based) pantheon folded up and left Realmspace and the Mulhorandi Empire is dust. There was this thing called the Spellplague. It was a deus ex machina whose purpose was to remove all these deities from the scene as well as usher in the mechanical changes of fourth edition. So, basically, the parts where they held influence have been excised from the new 4th edition FR or replaced with new power structures. You can't really use these deities except as a character who is some form of cultural dinosaur or other. Granted, I can create such a character or plot, but after the first time, the priest, follower, or cult of a dead deity becomes pretty stale.
Myself, I do not really want a bunch of new gods for various races. But, elaborating on whether or not any of the existing gods have any particular affection, or hatred, for a given race would not bother me.
We will get what we will get in the PHB2, but I really hope they flesh out the "core" gods more.
@ Kingjosh Expanding on them in the PHB 2 could be interesting as well and hated/loved races as well as classes and ideas could be an interesting set of info to have. If they don't add new ones then I would prefer expanding the old ones over no new info at all.
I believe they really messed up the Seldarine.
In the FR Seldarine, there were Sehanine Moonbow (of the moon naturally...), Aeredie Faenya ( a deity of the sky, and avariels, the winged elves...), and Hanali Celanil among others... In the FR, these three combined from time to time to form Angharadh, a tripartite greater goddess who was as powerful as Corellon.
In the FR general pantheon there was also Selune (the moon, the first goddess along with her sister Shar), Akadi (an elemental goddess), and Sune (the goddess of beauty and love.)
In 4th edition, Sehanine was retconned to be merely an aspect of Selune instead of another goddess. Aeredie was retconned into being the primordial Akadi (and thus, no longer a goddess). Hanali Celanil was retconned into being an aspect of Sune Firehair instead of being a separate goddess. Exactly how two goddesses and a primordial combine to form a greater goddess is something I am not sure of. Also, I believe there was a Dragon article about the goddess Auril destroying Aeredie Faenya, but Akadi still exists.
In the FR Seldarine, there were Sehanine Moonbow (of the moon naturally...), Aeredie Faenya ( a deity of the sky, and avariels, the winged elves...), and Hanali Celanil among others... In the FR, these three combined from time to time to form Angharadh, a tripartite greater goddess who was as powerful as Corellon.
In the FR general pantheon there was also Selune (the moon, the first goddess along with her sister Shar), Akadi (an elemental goddess), and Sune (the goddess of beauty and love.)
In 4th edition, Sehanine was retconned to be merely an aspect of Selune instead of another goddess. Aeredie was retconned into being the primordial Akadi (and thus, no longer a goddess). Hanali Celanil was retconned into being an aspect of Sune Firehair instead of being a separate goddess. Exactly how two goddesses and a primordial combine to form a greater goddess is something I am not sure of. Also, I believe there was a Dragon article about the goddess Auril destroying Aeredie Faenya, but Akadi still exists.
take care, Lady Penitent trilogy spoiler
Eilistrae, daughter of Lolth and Corellon, was killed in a battle (game of Sava) for the souls of the drow. They created a plot device where the good drow were all descendents of Miyeritar (an ancient kingdom of the elven race which became drow...)and the evil drow were all descendants of Illythiir (an ancient evil kingdom of the elven race which had became drow...) who had been tainted with the evil of Wednodai, a balor servant of Lolth who seduced the elves of Illythiir into abandoning the Seldarine. Qilue Veladorn, chosen of Eilistrae, performed a high magic spell infused with Eilistrae's power (that is the gist of it, I didn't bother to read the last book of the Lady Penitent trilogy after reading it.) to cleanse and actually change those good drow to something sort of different. (Brown Elves?) This ended with Eilistrae's death and Lolth thinking she had won the game until Corellon sat in the seat and started to move the transformed pieces. Basically, Eilistrae was not only killed, but all her divine essence was used to fuel a spell that transformed those who composed her portfolio into something which was part of Corellon's portfolio. It is kind of hard to rationalize coming back when she was not merely killed, but her divine energy was consumed by drow who are no longer in her portfolio(i.e. not really drow anymore).
Eilistrae, daughter of Lolth and Corellon, was killed in a battle (game of Sava) for the souls of the drow. They created a plot device where the good drow were all descendents of Miyeritar (an ancient kingdom of the elven race which became drow...)and the evil drow were all descendants of Illythiir (an ancient evil kingdom of the elven race which had became drow...) who had been tainted with the evil of Wednodai, a balor servant of Lolth who seduced the elves of Illythiir into abandoning the Seldarine. Qilue Veladorn, chosen of Eilistrae, performed a high magic spell infused with Eilistrae's power (that is the gist of it, I didn't bother to read the last book of the Lady Penitent trilogy after reading it.) to cleanse and actually change those good drow to something sort of different. (Brown Elves?) This ended with Eilistrae's death and Lolth thinking she had won the game until Corellon sat in the seat and started to move the transformed pieces. Basically, Eilistrae was not only killed, but all her divine essence was used to fuel a spell that transformed those who composed her portfolio into something which was part of Corellon's portfolio. It is kind of hard to rationalize coming back when she was not merely killed, but her divine energy was consumed by drow who are no longer in her portfolio(i.e. not really drow anymore).
Maybe WotC can/will/should make new gods and give expanded portfolios for the core ones to include various preferred races. Or at least do it with the FR where it should keep some semblance of a coherent storyline.
For the former, it's no trouble at all to have as many deities as you want, because it's all fluffy. So your dwarf, elf, human, tiefling, dragonborn, kobold, and lizardman can each have their own pantheon of deities, because they are a conceptual device. Worshiping the dwarven god of strength will be mechanically the same as worshiping the lizardmen god of strength; they might have different names, different practices, and different beliefs, but the core of the religion will be about the same. It's a problem, however, if you have deities as actual beings. If you can actually sit down and have tea with Pelor, add divine critters to the fold presents a major storytelling problem.
Let's say Pelor dies. In 4e core, the proverbial dung has hit the fan. The portfolio of the sun is left unclaimed, the balance is thrown off, and things are going to start going to the Abyss in a bag of holding. Now, let's say there are 40 sun gods between all the races and nations. If Pelor dies, either the Egyptian, the dwarven, the Mesopotamian, the Aztec, the Mongol, the Chinese, the Elven, the lizardman, or the kraken Sun God can probably pick up a bit of the slack.
For that matter, how the heck do these deities manage portfolio overlap? In the aforementioned sun situation, how do they compete for Sun Rite Rights? If Pelor wants an eclipse, does he need a 2/3rds majority among the sun gods? Do gods of fate and prophecy need committee meetings to decide when the Snake will devour the Wyrm, when the Chosen One will find the Crescent, or if the Flower should hear the Moon's Song before the Traitor finds the Haberdasher?
And finally, where the heck do all these divine beings come from? If a nation can have their own pantheon, does splitting the nation and worshiping something new spawn an entirely new superbeing? Because, quite frankly, I have to wonder how cosmologies mesh with the idea that people create gods, rather than gods creating people. Sure, it's a cool idea....but when you talk about "And then Mystra created the weave", it kind of sucks to be able to say, "my nation is going to start worshiping a giant hamster as the god of magic", and lo, Esteban the Wonder Hamster did chew upon the Weave, and found it lacking, thus created the Great Wheel.
And finally, where the heck do all these divine beings come from? If a nation can have their own pantheon, does splitting the nation and worshiping something new spawn an entirely new superbeing? Because, quite frankly, I have to wonder how cosmologies mesh with the idea that people create gods, rather than gods creating people. Sure, it's a cool idea....but when you talk about "And then Mystra created the weave", it kind of sucks to be able to say, "my nation is going to start worshiping a giant hamster as the god of magic", and lo, Esteban the Wonder Hamster did chew upon the Weave, and found it lacking, thus created the Great Wheel.
Ao is an overdeity who, among other things, controls who can ascend into godhood. So, no, if people started worshipping a giant hamster it does not suddenly become a god. The FR and many other games are fillled with legions of characters who would be gods.
I would write more, but it is all 3rd edition and doesn't really belong here
According to legend, when the gods made war against the primordials at the dawn of time, the battles raged across the cosmos for uncounted centuries. The gods slowly gained the upper hand, successfully imprisoning or banishing many of the primordials. However, this war threatened the very existence of the world, as the primordials who brought it forth from the Elemental Chaos clashed with the gods who sought to fix the form of the world in permanence. In the last days of the war, a new force made itself known in the cosmos: the spiritual expression of the world itself. These primal spirits declared an end to the conflict, asserting that the world would no longer be a battleground for the two opposing forces. The gods and the primordials were banished to their home planes, and the primal spirits of the world decreed a balance: world would remain a place where matter and spirit mingled freely, where life and death proceeded in an orderly cycle, where the seasons changed in their unending wheel without interference. The gods and the primordials could still influence the world, but they could not rule it.
These primal spirits are beyond number, ranging from spirits too weak to have proper names to the mightiest incarnations of nature’s power: the Primal Beast, the Fate Weaver, the Great Bear, the World Serpent, and others. They are spirits of winds and weather, of predators and prey, of plains and forests, of mountains and swamps. As the people of the world have come to know these primal spirits and live in harmony with them, some mortal spirits have joined their number after death, just as some mortal souls pass to the dominions of their gods. These great ancestors are among the most potent of the primal spirits.
Characters who use the primal power source stand firmly rooted in the world, between the divine power of the Astral Sea and the primordial churning of the Elemental Chaos. They have some affinity with the native inhabitants of the Feywild, who share their love and respect for the natural world. They are staunch enemies of aberrant creatures whose very existence is a blight on the natural world, as well as of demons that seek to destroy it, undead that violate life’s natural cycle, and (to a lesser extent) those who seek to despoil the wilderness in the name of progress and civilization.
That doesn’t mean that a primal character must be a sworn enemy of the gods, or of a character such as a paladin of Erathis who seeks to settle and civilize the world. There might be some conflict and disagreement between such characters, but they also have many common foes. A primal character’s greatest concern is with creatures and forces that threaten the stability of the world and the balanced cycles of nature. In a broad view, the cities and civilizations of humans and other races are just as much a part of nature as are primeval forests and mountains, and just as worthy of protection.
I hope they go into more detail about the bolded Primal Spirits.
That is awesome. Thanks for the quote. My interest also lies among those lines.
I sort of like the implications of this. It means that there's no (mechanical) reason one couldn't create a Cleric who worships any of those other entities, but still functions as a Cleric. It also means that all of these "super-powerful entities" ought to be roughly as unkillable as deities are, requiring epic power and several ultra-rituals to destroy them. Finally, it also allows you to have large, interesting array of religions without necessarily having to create a glut of deities, or wonder why your elder-evil-worshipping Invoker has access to spells; the only difference between gods and other super-beings is fluff.
Regardless of whatever anyone else says, I like this approach, and will probably use it.
For instance
-Reverence of ancestors
-Animal worship (y'know, a wizard worshipping the Raven as a spiritual symbol of magical power, not, like, worshipping a specific raven...)
-Mystical-philosophical religion/philosophy hybrids regarding paths of enlightenment, gnosis, nirvana, blah blah blah along the lines of Buddhism or somesuch.
-Reverence of a living, non-supernatural dude with delusions of divinity. Like, a pharoah, or Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il. (or possibly they're not delusions, if you have mortal gods who actually are mortal and divine -- i.e., the pharoah may croak after he gets old enough (or assassinated enough, etc) like any other mortal, but while alive, and while holding the position of pharoah, he really is divine in some sense.)
-Worship of innumerable spiritual forces like kami or numena that are individually too weak to be considered deities, but are worshipped/revered collectively. (i.e., spirits inhabiting individual trees, individual bits of furniture, etc.)
NOTE: if from a cosmological/canonical perspective, divine characters of these sorts aren't appropriate (i.e., if there's no justification for an ancestor-worshipping paladin, cleric, or other divine power sourced character), then that's fine. There's still room for ancestor-worshipping wizards, fighters who revere the Spirit of the Horse, and the like. I'm talking about "religions," which are not necessarily the same thing as "sources from which divine characters can get their mojo." Choosing to revere your ancestors rather than Ioun means you can't be a paladin, then fine: be a fighter or something instead. I'm not saying that I think that clerics, paladins, and other divine power sourced characters shouldn't be able to follow non-theistic religions and get their powers. I'm just saying that such non-theistic religons could be worthwhile even if divine characters can't get their power from them.
I sort of like the implications of this. It means that there's no (mechanical) reason one couldn't create a Cleric who worships any of those other entities, but still functions as a Cleric.
Mechanically speaking, you could make a cleric who worships a ham sandwich that was in his fridge too long and it would still work.:P
Mechanically speaking, you could make a cleric who worships a ham sandwich that was in his fridge too long and it would still work.:P
I know! Isn't 4E beautiful?
(And a
to you, R, for that totally sig-worthy comment!)-Animal worship (y'know, a wizard worshipping the Raven as a spiritual symbol of magical power, not, like, worshipping a specific raven...)
I'm sold. Only I want my wizard to worship a specific raven, specifically his familiar, 'cause crazy wizards are fun.
I'm sold. Only I want my wizard to worship a specific raven, specifically his familiar, 'cause crazy wizards are fun.
Would the existence of the familiar (a la a pre-4e wizard) be another part of the delusion, and the raven would actually not only not be divine, but not actually exist? Or would you have familiar rules? Or would he just have an ordinary, tamed raven, which he delusionally considered a familiar, and also delusionally considered a deity?
I like the idea that the raven doesn't actually exist the best.
"Algravi isn't just my familiar! She's a goddess! You should worship her!"
"Huh? Who's Algravi?"
"My familiar! The raven that's sitting on my left shoulder right now!"
"I don't see... ah, I suppose that in her ineffable wisdom, Algravi has gone invisible and decided not to reveal her presence to me, but..."
"She isn't invisible! Can't you see her?! She's sitting right there, perfectly visible!"
(other person flees in terror from the crazy wizard.)