Future Power Sources - Beyond The First Eight?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Omni-Wyvernil

Feb 05, 2009 19:50:01
So far, we have eight power sources which have been currently announced; martial, divine, arcane, primal, psionic, ki, shadow, and elemental. But what comes next, once the depths of these sources have been plumbed? Certainly, we will get plenty of supplemental power source books to expand on these sources, but will there be others beyond these eight?

And if so, what more can be added which hasn't already been covered by another source?

Probably the one source I can think of which doesn't overlap with the first eight is scientific/technological. Of course, this source would be designed for campaigns that go beyond the typical medieval fantasy into Renaissance-era and beyond, which might not sit well with the purists. This source would include the use of firearms and such concepts as the mad scientist, gunslinger, and medic.
#2

salla

Feb 05, 2009 19:52:05
So far, we have eight power sources which have been currently announced; martial, divine, arcane, primal, psionic, ki, shadow, and elemental. But what comes next, once the depths of these sources have been plumbed? Certainly, we will get plenty of supplemental power source books to expand on these sources, but will there be others beyond these eight?

And if so, what more can be added which hasn't already been covered by another source?

Probably the one source I can think of which doesn't overlap with the first eight is scientific/technological. Of course, this source would be designed for campaigns that go beyond the typical medieval fantasy into Renaissance-era and beyond, which might not sit well with the purists. This source would include the use of firearms and such concepts as the mad scientist, gunslinger, and medic.

I doubt we'll see that, since that's just a matter of equipment. There's no reason to create a gunslinger class when you can just have guns as equipment and hand them to, say, the ranger.
#3

anubis_reynard

Feb 05, 2009 20:07:22
The biggest gap I see in the power system is a power source related to the Far Realm, as Divine and Elemental are to the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos. But I wouldn't exactly call such a source "playable."
#4

belladonna5012

Feb 05, 2009 21:50:15
Clearly, we need a Rock and Roll power source.
#5

twinbahamut

Feb 05, 2009 21:54:37
I don't think that a Technology power source works at all. A Mad Science! power source would work for settings and eras outside the normal range D&D covers, but I don't think we will see it. Similarly an "Alien/Mutant/Genetech" power source may work for a more modern setting, but it would fall too far outside the range of normal D&D to really work.

While I am not particularly fond of the "planar power source" idea, it still basically works, so they will probably try to fill any major holes in that arrangement. The only real hole, though, is the Far Realm, and I would prefer not to see that as the inspiration for a Power Source.

If they add a proper Plane of Dreams, then that would be a pretty good planar root for a power source. However, it can be pretty easily argued that it would work best as a planar root for the Psionic Power Source, especially given the link between dreams and psionics in Eberron.

My best idea would be to create an entire power source based around the power of fate and the stars. The kind of power source in which "Predestined Hero", "Astrologer", or "Oracle" would work as classes.

That said, I honestly doubt that they will create that many power sources past the first eight. If you create too many, it dilutes the distinctions between the pre-existing power sources for almost no noticeable benefit. I think it is much more likely that they are just going to keep adding new classes to older power sources, so that we keep seeing new Martial, Divine, Arcane, and Primal classes long after the Ki, Shadow, Psionic, and Elemental power sources have been introduced.
#6

twinbahamut

Feb 05, 2009 21:56:08
Clearly, we need a Rock and Roll power source.

I would happily accept a "music" power source, but with the Bard already belonging to Arcane, it is unfortunately unlikely. There is so much you could do with the free reign to build a whole group of classes around the power of music...
#7

rumek

Feb 05, 2009 22:03:01
Clearly, we need a Rock and Roll power source.

I could see a rock and roll class using guitars, booz, and hot supermodels as implements.

Their powers would often relate to blowing holes through walls, the shaking of fists, and telling others that they "just don't care."
#8

belladonna5012

Feb 05, 2009 22:32:46
I could see a rock and roll class using guitars, booz, and hot supermodels as implements.

Their powers would often relate to blowing holes through walls, the shaking of fists, and telling others that they "just don't care."

Well, at least until that time comes, we can play a barbarian/bard with one axe for killin' an' one axe for rock an' roll.
#9

Belorin

Feb 06, 2009 1:18:30
Could be that beyond the initial eight we might see specialized sources, good enough for two or three classes but not a full suite. Something like the old demiplanes, Dream, Mirror, Time, etc.

Bel
#10

KoboldAvenger

Feb 06, 2009 1:36:53
The biggest gap I see in the power system is a power source related to the Far Realm, as Divine and Elemental are to the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos. But I wouldn't exactly call such a source "playable."

It's called Psionics, and some of Arcane also is related to the Far Realm. Certainly it is with Starlocks...

A lot of aberrant creatures have psychic powers, and as a plane that's "beyond" the multiverse it's greatest impact is on the mind, where the Far Realm is something that exists beyond the limits of concepts that one can think of.
#11

Luis_Carlos

Feb 06, 2009 3:29:23
Alchemy could be a new source of power, but I´m not sure.

I miss the binder and pact magic from "Tome of magic". A 4th Warlock isn´t a binder because pact magic is "freaker"...Vestiges have to return!!!

Truename could be a farly future power source. Truenames are perfect for spellcaster with a style of "Harry Potter" saga.

Magic of time is a headache.

Racial power source; fay and dragon?
#12

Steely_Dan

Feb 06, 2009 4:33:11
That said, I honestly doubt that they will create that many power sources past the first eight. If you create too many, it dilutes the distinctions between the pre-existing power sources for almost no noticeable benefit. I think it is much more likely that they are just going to keep adding new classes to older power sources, so that we keep seeing new Martial, Divine, Arcane, and Primal classes long after the Ki, Shadow, Psionic, and Elemental power sources have been introduced.

This is my view/prediction as well.

Ki and Elemental are already getting enough flak.
#13

munchmausen1

Feb 06, 2009 10:00:19
Well, at least until that time comes, we can play a barbarian/bard with one axe for killin' an' one axe for rock an' roll.

Nah. Roll 'em both into one - a guitar pick axe.
#14

Bolongo

Feb 06, 2009 10:10:01
Well, regardless of the oft quoted railing against "needless symmetry", the 8 power sources we have so far are in fact perfectly symmetrical.

They're also tied directly into the cosmology. 5 correspond to the macrocosmos, 3 to the microcosmos.

I don't really see any room for more sources in the core cosmology.
Except maybe the Far Realm, as has been suggested, though that seems sort of unsuitable for PCs.
Also maybe the Abyss, but I doubt it. If there is a Demonologist class coming, I'm betting it will be the Elemental Controller.

Now, in variant settings that have radically different cosmologies, all bets are of course off.
#15

enigmashock

Feb 06, 2009 11:13:14
Clearly, we need a Rock and Roll power source.

It has been said that there was, indeed, an entire city built on rock 'n roll. . . .
:D





/Knee deep in the hoopla
#16

enigmashock

Feb 06, 2009 11:15:48
In all seriousness, I think that you are more likely to see new classes in the individual power sources.

Truenamer - Arcane

Incarnum Classes - Arcane

Pact Magic - Divine

etc . ..
#17

ranadiel

Feb 06, 2009 12:33:23
In all seriousness, I think that you are more likely to see new classes in the individual power sources.

Truenamer - Arcane

Incarnum Classes - Arcane

Pact Magic - Divine

etc . ..

Wow, while I agree with the principle that we will be seeing different uses of old power source......those assignments are kind of odd. I mean I guess that Truename as arcane does make some sense since arcane seems to be the "knowledge" power source, although I personally would give it to divine(which is probably a weird one).

However we already have a pact mage, the warlock. And Incarnum is based off of unborn souls. That is much more the domain of divine or ki then it is arcane.
#18

johnthedm7000

Feb 06, 2009 13:00:30
I think that as it stands the 8 power sources seem to cover all of the major fantasy power sources. However that doesn't mean that there isn't room for other flavors of the 8 power sources-consider a 4th edition redux of dream magic (from Heroes of Horror) that mimics the weapon mastery multiclass feats of the Arena fighting article (although I'd rather see them as non multiclass feats, so any class could gain specialization with the whip, or proficiency with dream magic). The first feat would grant an encounter power that would have a traditional power source tag like Arcane, but would have something in parentheses like (Dream) that would serve as a sub power source and as a keyword.
#19

runcdfirst

Feb 06, 2009 16:34:03
However we already have a pact mage, the warlock. And Incarnum is based off of unborn souls. That is much more the domain of divine or ki then it is arcane.

While the warlock does deal with a pact, I think you could do something completely different with the binder. Hell, it would work really well with the Far Realm. Unfortunately, I doubt this will come to pass and, if anything, we'll just get new classes that bend the definitions of the current 8 in different ways.
#20

SongSooGumbup

Feb 06, 2009 17:33:42
Of course, this source would be designed for campaigns that go beyond the typical medieval fantasy into Renaissance-era and beyond, which might not sit well with the purists.

This always bugged me, since cross-bows and rapiers were products of the Renaissance also, but I'll get off my soap box and answer the OP. It seems like the existing power sources cover most of the planes already and it's hard to think of something that isn't already covered. I thought about a fey or nature power source, but that's covered under primal. Shadow covers death and stealth, but does it cover devils and demons, or are they covered in divine and arcane? Could a player pull energy from the astral plane without being divine?

Technology does seem to be first untapped source (even Lucas' force is stolen by psions). Just as a monk will be able to punch with a power besides martial, a vigilante could shoot in its own class. If people don't like it, they can only allow certain books. I've never seen a psionic class because my 3E group was very restrictive in what materials could be used (I almost didn't get to try out the monk and the bard was forced to become a fighter). Anyway, it's an interesting question.
#21

brainstem

Feb 06, 2009 19:36:33
A technology powersource could be cool if worked into a Steampunk kind of setting, although I don't know how much I would want it into the main continuity.

That said, I don't know how much more sources would add to the game. As it is, we're going to probably need about 4 PHBs to cover all of the sources that have been announced, meaning 4 years of 4E. Time would be better spent over those years fleshing out existing power sources and classes rather than developing entirely new ideas.

Ultimately, I think extra power sources should be left to third parties. WotC has enough of its plate with the 8 announced.
#22

Valien

Feb 07, 2009 15:43:49
IMO, they should use the future PHB's (beyond the fourth one) to expand on the previous sources. I mean, if we have 8 power sources and there's a trend of 8 classes per book, would there be a problem to release 1 new class per source per book? That way we would always have an equal number of classes on those sources (well, excluding obviously campaing-specific classes).

Or, maybe, each book would have 2 new classes for 4 of the old sources. Maybe this could help them releasing splatbooks more often. Shouldn't be hard to think of two extra classes por source, anyway. Samurai could be an option for Martial, for example (if it isn't, and I damn hope it isnt', Ki).
#23

Dragon9

Feb 07, 2009 17:18:48
So far, we have eight power sources which have been currently announced; martial, divine, arcane, primal, psionic, ki, shadow, and elemental. But what comes next, once the depths of these sources have been plumbed?

5e. :D
#24

Vael

Feb 07, 2009 20:10:53
To be honest, I still don't see what the Elemental Power source is, and how it's going to seperate itself from the Arcane and Primal sources.

I'm not against more power sources but they're going to have to stand seperate from what we've already got.

Clearly, we need a Rock and Roll power source.

Dance-fight bonuses FTW!
#25

Steely_Dan

Feb 09, 2009 3:59:15
Well, regardless of the oft quoted railing against "needless symmetry", the 8 power sources we have so far are in fact perfectly symmetrical.

No they're not, Martial has no Controller and 2 Strikers, Arcane has 2 leaders and 2 Strikers, only Divine and Primal have exactly 1 class of each role.
#26

Bolongo

Feb 09, 2009 4:00:41
No they're not, Martial has no Controller and 2 Strikers, Arcane has 2 leaders and 2 Strikers, only Divine and Primal have exactly 1 class of each role.

LOL.

I would think it was obvious in the context that I wasn't discussing classes at all.
#27

DreamStalker

Feb 09, 2009 4:34:17
Yeah, I think the 8 we have will be enough. There is a lot of crossover between Ki and Psionic already, the same with Elemental and Primal. Arcane Divine and Shadow with most everything.
#28

Steely_Dan

Feb 09, 2009 5:24:59
Never mind, I'm a confused freak.
#29

ultimatecalibur

Feb 09, 2009 5:35:27
Dan, Bolongo is referring to a fan theory that links every power source to a plane or concept.
#30

Steely_Dan

Feb 09, 2009 5:38:05
Dan, Bolongo is referring to a fan theory that links every power source to a plane or concept.

Sorry, Bol,

I don't buy that either.
#31

Bolongo

Feb 09, 2009 9:48:47
Sorry, Bol,

I don't buy that either.

That's OK. If you'd rather believe the designers just make up power sources as they go along, with no conceptual framework to guide them, you're welcome to do so.
#32

tiwaztyrsfist

Feb 09, 2009 15:59:47
So, WotC has said, 1 PHB a year. And, they've said they don't intend to revist powersources once they finish with them. And, certainly, they don't PLAN to run the system for only 4 years. It took them three just to create the new system after all.

So then, we must look to the logical conclusion. By 2012, they needs must devise three new sources, to fill PHB V with classes.

But what sources?
I like the concept of a source that draws power from the masters of the far realm, just as divine draws power from the gods, and elemental presumably draws power from the primordials.
Though no idea what it would be called.
#33

ranadiel

Feb 09, 2009 17:47:46
And, they've said they don't intend to revist powersources once they finish with them.

Got a link on that because I don't recall ever hearing that.
#34

DeusMorae

Feb 09, 2009 23:14:58
So, WotC has said, 1 PHB a year. And, they've said they don't intend to revist powersources once they finish with them. And, certainly, they don't PLAN to run the system for only 4 years. It took them three just to create the new system after all.

And who said that they were going to finish all 8 power sources in 4 years?
#35

Steely_Dan

Feb 10, 2009 2:40:02
That's OK. If you'd rather believe the designers just make up power sources as they go along, with no conceptual framework to guide them, you're welcome to do so.

Oh, I'm sure they have a conceptual framework, just that it doesn't have anything to do with the planes in particular (that's just people engaging in needles sphincter puckering), but if you wish for power sources to be tied to the planes specifically in your campaigns, of course that's your choice, and it could be cool.
#36

Bolongo

Feb 10, 2009 3:48:13
And who said that they were going to finish all 8 power sources in 4 years?

Nobody, AFAIK.

But to play devil's advocate for a while...
It is a reasonable assumption that each source will have at least 4 classes published within that 4 year span.
At 8 classes per PHB and at least 1 per campaign setting we will have a minimum of 36 classes to play with by then.
At that point it doesn't really matter if they come up with new power sources or not. Regardless of where their powers come from, the process of imagining new classes that are interesting yet avoid power creep will only get more and more difficult.

So what sort of material will PHB 5 through PHB n be filled with?
#37

sfdragon

Feb 10, 2009 4:35:06
well they could start the modern 4e settings up with:
Steampunk power sources and some classes for it, write ups for existing classes,

a Cyberpunk powersource( a cybermage anybody??) with write ups....


and a post apocalyptic power source as well.

greetings children this is NOT Three Dog at GNR......


at best mind you, we will likely see wrtie ups for players to create whacked out characters to use the existing classes with different power sources.
like using a warlock with the martial power source, why anyone would want to do this, I dont know....


speaking of which do we have a celestial pact for the warlock??
#38

Darkwolf_Bloodsbane

Feb 10, 2009 11:01:23
I bring you, the DRILL Power Source:

Just click.:D
#39

praion

Feb 10, 2009 11:08:30
THE REAL ULTIMAE POWER SOURCE

yeah, it is this cool
#40

tiwaztyrsfist

Feb 10, 2009 16:16:25
1> I can't link to support for the "No further classes thing." People have in other threads, but I can't find it now, so you can consider that unsupported supposition if you like.
2> Completing the 8 power sources in the first four PHB's is an educated guess based off what they have done so far and announced so far. So, agian, you can consider that supposition. But supported by current trends.


That aside

Ingenuity power source.
Powers focus around sudden feats of genius and inspiration. Int generally a primary stat. General power source themes: Improvised traps, Improvised weapons, Sudden knowledge of weaknesses, Attacks that confuse, confound, or distract the target (as represented by Daze, stun, or penalties).
Light branching into Artificer type constructs.
#41

Titanium_Dragon

Feb 11, 2009 22:17:21
They'll continue to expand the extant power sources, most likely, unless they can come up with a lot of good ideas.

Time and Fate sound good at first, but honestly neither is a viable basis for an entire power source, and both fit in better under other power sources for that very reason. Psionics is likely the "Far Plane" power source, so I don't see another one coming out from there.

So what is left? The existing power sources cover a lot of ground, but the real issue is that you need to find a source which is untapped and covers enough ground. Technology isn't a viable power source for D&D; artificers are arcanists and technology doesn't make sense in the same sense that other power sources do due to the way it functions.

I wouldn't be surprised to see additional power sources, but I suspect most of them will be lame, and they'll expand the existing power sources.
#42

oneiros

Feb 11, 2009 22:26:40
The Chuck Norris power source.

Of course, all the other power sources draw their power from the Chuck Norris source.
#43

Kaldric

Feb 12, 2009 22:37:34
I don't see what else they'd put in after the 8. You can shoehorn just about anything in under those.
#44

LordDreadman

Feb 13, 2009 2:46:53
Just a quick note for those who care enough to actually go to the source:

"Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow."
-Player's Handbook, Page 54, Emphasis Added.

This is not conclusive proof. Maybe they made a grave error when they wrote "include" instead of "are," but I am inclined to believe that, with the amount of editing that the PHB saw, that this was intentional.

You may also consider that, with each new PHB, there may be a similar "page 54 entry" where Martial Power could be left out and a new Power Source or two is named.

Yours,
Lord Dreadman
#45

dimitrix

Feb 13, 2009 14:02:20
Um, who cares? I mean really what does a 'power source' mean. Look at a power and cover up the part that tells you what source and class it belongs to. Can you really tell the difference between an arcane, primal, or divine power? Most powers in 4e do basically the same kinds of things: do some kind of damage, bestow some kind of penalty to enemies, bestow some kind of benefit to allies, and/or move allies and/or targets. Power source doesn't really account for much of anything.
#46

oneiros

Feb 13, 2009 14:46:34
Um, who cares? I mean really what does a 'power source' mean. Look at a power and cover up the part that tells you what source and class it belongs to. Can you really tell the difference between an arcane, primal, or divine power? Most powers in 4e do basically the same kinds of things: do some kind of damage, bestow some kind of penalty to enemies, bestow some kind of benefit to allies, and/or move allies and/or targets. Power source doesn't really account for much of anything.

Well, for one thing, you won't see a Martial power which lets you fly. Or cause radiant damage. Or summon creatures from another plane. The sources help group powers together conceptually. Sure there are plenty of powers which you could file the serial number off of and they look like any other classes attack power. But there are plenty, plenty more which are very recognizable as belonging to a distinct power source.
#47

karat

Feb 13, 2009 15:09:58
Um, who cares? I mean really what does a 'power source' mean. Look at a power and cover up the part that tells you what source and class it belongs to. Can you really tell the difference between an arcane, primal, or divine power? Most powers in 4e do basically the same kinds of things: do some kind of damage, bestow some kind of penalty to enemies, bestow some kind of benefit to allies, and/or move allies and/or targets. Power source doesn't really account for much of anything.

You have a point that people consider power sources more important than they really are.

However, they are not completely irrelevant. They are useful for balancing feats and features. Each power source may also be designed with certain benefits or limitations in mind.

As for what will happen after ~4 years (or however long it takes to mine the current 8 sources), I suspect the development team has a few ideas burning in the back of their brains but are otherwise willing to wait and see how things go between now and then. It's a good thing to be responsive to your public. For example, if people really want a Far Realm power source, it might actually appear. If people want a technology power source, it might appear in a particular setting only. If people want more classes with the existing power sources, that will probably happen instead. Four years is a long time, and it's good that they can have options of creating more power sources or expanding the ones they have.
#48

tiwaztyrsfist

Feb 13, 2009 18:27:30
So, if they DON'T fold Incarnum into Ki, Incarnum could make a comback as a power source.
#49

praion

Feb 14, 2009 5:02:35
Well, for one thing, you won't see a Martial power which lets you fly. Or cause radiant damage. Or summon creatures from another plane. The sources help group powers together conceptually. Sure there are plenty of powers which you could file the serial number off of and they look like any other classes attack power. But there are plenty, plenty more which are very recognizable as belonging to a distinct power source.

Martial power flight ? Build a plane/kite/glider :P
#50

greatfrito

Feb 15, 2009 15:50:18
consider a 4th edition redux of dream magic (from Heroes of Horror) that mimics the weapon mastery multiclass feats of the Arena fighting article (although I'd rather see them as non multiclass feats, so any class could gain specialization with the whip, or proficiency with dream magic). The first feat would grant an encounter power that would have a traditional power source tag like Arcane, but would have something in parentheses like (Dream) that would serve as a sub power source and as a keyword.

I think that this is a (thus far) untapped wealth of resources for 4th Edition. A lot of the "thematic" power sources could easily be folded into a "sub power source" mechanic like the one you describe - essentially a multiclass-only option that gets built upon an existing character chassis.


As far as other power sources go, the only one that seems remotely plausible as a full, independent power source, would be "technology" (though I think the name is a bit off).

In a more perfect world, the Artificer would have been within the "Artifice" power source (or would have been split up into the Artifice power source, much like the Fighter was split up into the Martial power source in many ways), and the class would be thematically distinct from Arcane classes - more of a "steampunk" tinker class.

Now, that would work well for some distinct setting, I think. But for DnD Proper, the power source wouldn't fit so well - the "core" Artificer certainly fits better.

More Ramblings...

If I were to build a fully fleshed out Artifice power source, I'd probably start with something like...

Tinker (Leader?): Creates mechanical tools that give benefit to allies.
Engineer (Controller): Creates mechanical tools and traps that control the battlefield and hinder foes.
Gadgeteer(?) (Striker?): Modifies weapons (crossbows, guns) with mechanical devices, augmenting damage and effects.
???
#51

tiwaztyrsfist

Feb 15, 2009 23:30:51
I'd like to see more multiclass only classes. (Henceforth, MOC)

I was a bit disappointed with what Gladiator ended up as. I'd hoped that it would be a bit like Spellscarred.


I'd like to see the following.
Duelist - a Martial MOC, Basic feat grants a one-on-one target bonus. Powers are weapon based, and focus mainly on one-on-one attacks, and counters.

Ascetic - A Divine MOC, Basic feat grants 1 daily use of Channel Divinity.
Powers focus on anti-undead and anti-fiend powers.

Atavist - A Primal MOC, Basic feat grants Low Light Vision or Scent Tracking.
Powers focus on drawing nature spirits into the users body for bonuses.

That sort of thing.
#52

zeratulcraft

Feb 15, 2009 23:50:28
I'd love a Tech source, so that I can have a wild west style game where vampires duel at high moon. I just frikken love the idea of a vampiric fast draw.
#53

undrave

Feb 16, 2009 0:11:57
The BIG problem with creating new sources is the Arcane power source. It is very ill-defined compared to the others and is a big 'catch all' power source.

If you look at the fan theory that

Divine = Astral Sea
Primal = Material Plane
Elemental = Elemental Chaos
Shadow = Shadowfell

Psionic = Mind
Martial = Body
Ki = Soul

You see that Arcane doesn't fit AT ALL! The Wizard seems to take his power from studying energies that apparantly come out of nature, meanwhile the Warlock gets his power from the Nine Hell (in the Astral Sea), the Feywild OR the Far Realm. The Dark Pact even links to unknown creatures from the Underdark. From the MATERIAL WORLD! Swordmage and Artificer are very much like Wizards. They got arcanem ight but you have no idea where it come from.

And what happens? We end up with TONS of classes that are shoved into the catch-all Arcane sources. At the end of the year it will have 6 classes to itself. And you can bet that it will probably show up in other settings far more easily than any other power sources. While I agree the 'pointless symetry' is lame, this imbalance toward Arcane classes is a tad annoying.

If Arcane had been better defined (like say linked to the Feywild) and split into two sources or more it might not have been the same.

I bring you, the DRILL Power Source:

Just click.:D

That's SPIRAL power, and thematically it can fit in with the 'inner power' behind Ki. Just like plenty of anime powers: aura, cosmo, nen, chakra, etc.

And frankly it feels a lot like Arcane classes, beyond the anomaly that is the Warlock (which you could set aside if you want), could also fit the 'inner power' bit too.

"What does the scouter say about his Magic level?"

And so and so you know?

I guess its the nature of magic itself to be mysterious and hard to grasp.
#54

tehsquirrely

Feb 16, 2009 0:42:17
It might just be me, but I like to think arcane power is the power of the multiverse. Or, if you like, PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS!!!!! But that's just me. Or just explain the power sources as the "magic of..." and arcane is the "magic of magic."

I dunno though, I think once we have nearly 40 classes to choose from we have enough variety. I hope to see more specific books (for power sources) and perhaps, later, even MORE specific books (for individual classes), as well as more race support. Classes have been getting a ton of love, races need some love too!
#55

Bolongo

Feb 16, 2009 2:34:40
If Arcane had been better defined (like say linked to the Feywild) and split into two sources or more it might not have been the same.

It is sort of linked to the Feywild, in that arcane power seems to be stronger and more plentiful there, what with the ley lines and all (MotP).

Also, Corellon "seeded the world with arcane magic" (PH), and he's connected to the fey. Note that it doesn't say he invented magic, or that he's the source of it somehow. "Seeded" implies that he found it in one place and planted it in another.
#56

undrave

Feb 16, 2009 13:31:31
It is sort of linked to the Feywild, in that arcane power seems to be stronger and more plentiful there, what with the ley lines and all (MotP).

Also, Corellon "seeded the world with arcane magic" (PH), and he's connected to the fey. Note that it doesn't say he invented magic, or that he's the source of it somehow. "Seeded" implies that he found it in one place and planted it in another.

Hmm... you know that could be a neat definition, Arcane Power is a power that is 'out of place', its all the power you can find not in their native plane. Like Far Realm energy harnessed in the material plane by the Warlock, Feywild energy brought forth by Correlon... Its not one source proper, but its a generic type for an ambiant power that should not be in the plane where it is.
#57

anubis_reynard

Feb 16, 2009 23:45:00
In that case a "Glamour" type powersource, with illusions and misdirections, could be related to the Feywild. (although I suppose Shadow may end up with that absorbed in, thus linking it with BOTH the Shadowfell AND the Feywild)
#58

Bolongo

Feb 17, 2009 2:20:48
In that case a "Glamour" type powersource, with illusions and misdirections, could be related to the Feywild.

I've always liked the magic in Pendragon - which is called Glamour BTW. ;)
Of course, in that world there is no distinction between a druid and a wizard, so it doesn't exactly translate to D&D.

Anyway, the most precise official definition we have of arcane is that it's "magical energy that permeates the cosmos". In other words, arcane is everywhere. Which is why it can be used to pull energy and beings from any of the planes, I suppose. So what does it mean that there seems to be more of it in the Feywild than elsewhere? I can think of a few different explanations:

1) It's the source. Arcane energy flows from Faerie and seeps into the rest of the cosmos.
2) It's the destination. Arcane energy bubbles forth everywhere, but naturally gravitates toward and pools in the Feywild.
3) It serves as a focus. Arcane energy doesn't actually move around much on its own, it's just that different places in the cosmos provide better or worse living conditions (as it were) for it. The laws of "nature" in the fey realm are more conducive to the flourishing and expansion of the arcane.
#59

Omni-Wyvernil

May 13, 2009 3:58:36
Re-opening this discussion now that Ki is de-confirmed, since we can probably expect a new power source or two at this point.

Technology is one possibility, though it does step a bit outside the bounds of the typical heroic fantasy. They might also revisit Incarnum, though most of its concepts might get split up between several sources.
#60

excession_dup

May 13, 2009 19:07:29
Here's a couple of ideas that I had:

1. Ancestral: "For generations my ancestors have fought these monsters. Generations or pain, terror, and loss. They stand with me today, and today IT ENDS!"

You revere and draw power from those that have gone before. You can recount your ancestors back for 20 generations, whether from the oral traditions of a tribal society or the meticulous record books of a civilised one. When you call on them, your ancestors can provide aid and knowledge to you and your allies. Bit odd if you're a Deva, but I guess you could worship your own past lives, or someone else's ancestors.

2. Popular (this needs a better name): "The people in that valley behind me, they believe in me, and they chose me to protect them. So if you're planning on getting through this pass, you gotta go through me."

You draw power from those that believe in you and rely on you. You are the charismatic leader of a popular revolt, brandishing a pitchfork as you charge the heavily armed soldiers of Bane. You are the chosen champion of your village/province/nation, and the knowledge that they're counting on you holds you firm on the battlefield. Or maybe you're just doing it for a girl.
#61

sigil_beguiler

May 13, 2009 19:25:04
A Aberrant Power Source be cool, based around Symbiotes and Mutations. You could have full blown symbioses with the person completely covered (like said Guyver), or simply mutating part of you. Perhaps also can cause tainting, mutating others or the landscape. Possibly messing with reality too.

While I wouldn't want to see Technology as a full Power Source I could see it being open to all classes. So instead of a full Power Source instead stuff like... Multi-Class Only Classes, Hybrid Only Classes, Feat Trees, Paragon Paths, "Technology Styles" (like Fighting Styles), etc.
#62

e105zeta

May 13, 2009 23:50:39
Gremlins as a playable race specializing in Technology, and the Technology classes being Gunslinger (Ranged Striker that wields guns), Doctor (Close Leader - Medic that uses technology, drugs, and science to heal wounds), Engineer (Controller - Uses a range of wacky gadgets and constructs to affect the area - miniature robots, tasers, lasers, and explosives for the most part), and Cyber (Defender - Guy in a giant suit of mechanical armor or a cyborg) is something I could see working out for campaigns set in a less magical and more technological setting - IE, Dark Sun, D20 Modern, and bits of Eberron. It would all be much less realistic and more thematic. More of Mad Science. For instance - think of the Doctor more like the Medic from Team Fortress 2 than your local physician.

A Aberrant Power Source be cool, based around Symbiotes and Mutations. You could have full blown symbioses with the person completely covered (like said Guyver), or simply mutating part of you. Perhaps also can cause tainting, mutating others or the landscape. Possibly messing with reality too.

Aberrant could be done for NPCs, but I'm not sure how it could be used for a PC race.
#63

Omni-Wyvernil

May 14, 2009 0:26:58
Gremlins as a playable race specializing in Technology, and the Technology classes being Gunslinger (Ranged Striker that wields guns), Doctor (Close Leader - Medic that uses technology, drugs, and science to heal wounds), Engineer (Controller - Uses a range of wacky gadgets and constructs to affect the area - miniature robots, tasers, lasers, and explosives for the most part), and Cyber (Defender - Guy in a giant suit of mechanical armor or a cyborg) is something I could see working out for campaigns set in a less magical and more technological setting - IE, Dark Sun, D20 Modern, and bits of Eberron. It would all be much less realistic and more thematic. More of Mad Science. For instance - think of the Doctor more like the Medic from Team Fortress 2 than your local physician.

The engineer class could be called the Tinker (as a call-back to Tinker Gnomes and other such creatures). One of his chief mechanics could be the Device; his daily powers consist of setting up a mechanical construct which has different effects on the battlefield. For example:

Auto-Ballista: The tinker constructs a giant mechanical crossbow which can be operated to attack enemies.
Sub-abilities:
Explosive Arrow - Close burst 2, 3d8+INT fire damage
Grappling Arrow - 1d8+INT damage to one enemy, pull target 1+INT mod squares.

One strategic wrinkle could be that the tinker's devices are stationary; once they're set up, they remain rooted to that spot. There might be a Detonate Device at-will ability that lets the tinker 'self-destruct' a device to damage nearby enemies if they advance too close (which could have scaling damage similar to the barbarian's Rage Strike power). Random malfunctions or explosions (on attack rolls failed badly enough) are a possibility, but could be skipped due to potential annoyance.
#64

e105zeta

May 14, 2009 3:04:24
The engineer class could be called the Tinker (as a call-back to Tinker Gnomes and other such creatures). One of his chief mechanics could be the Device; his daily powers consist of setting up a mechanical construct which has different effects on the battlefield. For example:

Auto-Ballista: The tinker constructs a giant mechanical crossbow which can be operated to attack enemies.
Sub-abilities:
Explosive Arrow - Close burst 2, 3d8+INT fire damage
Grappling Arrow - 1d8+INT damage to one enemy, pull target 1+INT mod squares.

One strategic wrinkle could be that the tinker's devices are stationary; once they're set up, they remain rooted to that spot. There might be a Detonate Device at-will ability that lets the tinker 'self-destruct' a device to damage nearby enemies if they advance too close (which could have scaling damage similar to the barbarian's Rage Strike power). Random malfunctions or explosions (on attack rolls failed badly enough) are a possibility, but could be skipped due to potential annoyance.

Oh, I really like the stationary device concept, ala the Engineers from Warhammer and Team Fortress 2 and the gunner from Disgea.
#65

thestupacabra

May 15, 2009 8:35:04
Aberrant could be done for NPCs, but I'm not sure how it could be used for a PC race.

Eh, I don't think it'd be that much of a stretch, really. I understand that Far Realm entities are suposed to be malevolent and all, but by the same token, so are the beings that Star Pact, Infernal Pact, or Dark Pact Warlocks make their bargains with. For that matter, the Elemental source is speculated to draw from the Elemental Chaos and the Primordials... who effectively want to destroy creation... yet that will be a PC power source.

I'm sure we're going to end up seeing an "Abberant" power source, though the name will probably be changed. I don't think it'll cover anything like mutations or symbiosis (not without multi-class feats, anyways), but I see it more as a source that manipulates and warps the fundamental laws of reality.
#66

fey_feline

May 15, 2009 9:44:31
I could see a rock and roll class using guitars, booz, and hot supermodels as implements.

Their powers would often relate to blowing holes through walls, the shaking of fists, and telling others that they "just don't care."

Prolly packaged with the surprise setting of 2010: Brutal Legend.
#67

Myztek

May 15, 2009 9:50:51
2000: 3E
2003: 3.5
2008: 4E: Martial, Arcane, Divine
2009: Primal
2010: Psionic
2011: Shadow
2012: Elemental (which I think will have a high demonic influence)
2013: Incarnum
2014: Announcement of 5E - no new power sources; New resources are actually playtests for 5E
2015: 5E

I believe that was always the 'loose' plan, but with Ki inserted before Psionic and Incarnum not included. I don't think Incarnum is a sure bet, but it is my most likely candidate for a final power source.
#68

The_Jester

May 15, 2009 11:51:40
After reading the books and seeing the first 11 or so classes, I've pretty much written off Power Sources and a needless waste of time.

They probably had some interesting ideas behind the concept back in the day, but whatever mechanical game purpose they had beyond limiting Paragon Paths has vanished. Now it's only a very loose thematic tie.
Really, they take the 2-3 classes that fit the power source and think of a most tenuous of common elements and spin that into a unifying theme. Like Primal's "transformation" where they ran with a druidic element and forced the barbarian to match the same narrow box. And really, what's the connecting element or theme in all the PHB's power sources?

Then they come-up with new classes that will always be hybrids of existing classes or character and for them into the narrow power source box as well.
The new classes don't really add much. A swordmage is fun, but it really just takes away interesting elements that would otherwise be added the multiclass fighter/wizards. Invokers just diminished the clerics and avengers are just refocused paladins. Power sources just encourage attempts to fill all four roles (needless symmetry!)

The monk demonstrated this perfectly. 110% of what makes a monk a monk has to do with its class and not its power source. That's just tacked-on.
Meanwhile, all the other psionic classes are being limited and forced and squeezed into this thematic box for no good reason.

I'd like new classes but they should start by deciding what the class is and what makes it a new and interesting addition rather than decided what power source it fits into and which role it uses.