future race support

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

lady_ishtar

Jun 04, 2009 8:53:57		I'm not sure if this belongs here or not, but i would like someone in cahoots with WotC to see this.

I am wondering if we can expect future support for core races/classes that do not appear in PHBs or Campaign Setting Player Guides?

I'm asking because we are getting Revenants in Dragon, but we already have Gnolls and Shadar-Kai in Dragon with no support, Bladelings in MotP with even less support.

I guess i would like to know why, if EVERYTHING is core, some core races get support and others don't. Is there some kind of PHB races union that fights for their support? If so, can we get Bladelings unionized too?

Anyways, any response from someone in the know would be appreciated.
#2

Seeker95

Jun 04, 2009 9:21:00
I'm not sure if this belongs here or not, but i would like someone in cahoots with WotC to see this.
Anyways, any response from someone in the know would be appreciated.

Sending a letter to Customer Service is a better way to get WotC to see it.

I am wondering if we can expect future support for core races/classes that do not appear in PHBs or Campaign Setting Player Guides?

What do you mean by "more support"? I don't see more support for elves, dwarves, or humans beyond the two-page write-up in the PHB, which is *less* space than the Revenants, Gnolls, Minotaurs, and Shadar-Kai received in Dragon. Dragonborn seem to have received more support than the other PHB races, insofar as they received both a two-page *and* a Dragon ecology article.
#3

JayM

Jun 04, 2009 9:58:35
I guess i would like to know why, if EVERYTHING is core, some core races get support and others don't.

Popularity and importance is the deciding factor. There are too many races for all of them to get regular support, so the races that are widely used, popular with the players and important to the game are going to get the most.

Thus, you will probably see some support for races like Shadar-Kai. But races like Bladeling and Gnoll might never be mentioned again. And the popular basic races, like Human, Elf and Dwarf, will always get the most support.

Anyways, any response from someone in the know would be appreciated.

WotC intentionally avoids answering questions here directly, so your not going to get an official answer.

Jay
#4

rambaldi

Jun 04, 2009 10:00:19 		I don't have DDI so I haven't read those articles but I would guess support in terms of race specific Feats etc. ?
#5

lady_ishtar

Jun 04, 2009 11:05:15
What do you mean by "more support"? I don't see more support for elves, dwarves, or humans beyond the two-page write-up in the PHB, which is *less* space than the Revenants, Gnolls, Minotaurs, and Shadar-Kai received in Dragon. Dragonborn seem to have received more support than the other PHB races, insofar as they received both a two-page *and* a Dragon ecology article.

I beg to differ. All the PHB and FRPG have tons of feats and PPs in AP and MP. Bladelings were printed in MotP, but they didn't get their racial PP in PHB2, or any support in AP, both of which came out after MotP.

I guess i wonder why make a race that is core to the game if you're not going to support it in any way. After all, the PHB and FRPG races get about equal support between the splat books and Dragon. Hell, even gnolls and shadar-kai have more support for them in the Dragon articles they originally appeared in.
#6

Seeker95

Jun 04, 2009 13:18:05 		I guess your definition of "tons of feats" is more lenient than mine.

Send a letter to customer service and ask. And when you find out what the support plans are for non-PHB races, share it with us.
#7

celticmutt

Jun 04, 2009 13:30:32
I guess your definition of "tons of feats" is more lenient than mine.

Send a letter to customer service and ask. And when you find out what the support plans are for non-PHB races, share it with us.

It's not more lenient, it's accurate. Between PHB1 & 2, MP, & AP, the books races have twice as many feats as the Gnoll or Shadar-kai, and many of them like the Dragonborn and Tiefling have twice or more as many racial PPs. Hell, the Gnolls don't have any racial PPs.
#8

Seeker95

Jun 04, 2009 15:27:17
It's not more lenient, it's accurate. Between PHB1 & 2, MP, & AP, the books races have twice as many feats as the Gnoll or Shadar-kai.

A broad claim stated for hyperbole instead of accuracy

It is true that there are only 7 gnoll feats in the Dragon article on gnolls.
But there are 22 shadar-kai feats in its Dragon article. (The minotaur has 8 feats.)

And the PHB1 Races?
Elf: 16 feats
Dwarf: 17 feats
Half-elf: 11 feats
Eladrin: 22 feats
Human: 16 feats
Dragonborn: 23 feats
Tiefling: 18 feats
Halfling: 16 feats

PHB2 Races:
Deva: 21 feats
Gnome: 9 feats
Goliath: 6 feats
Half-Orc: 7 feats
Shifter: 8 feats

Only the Deva, Dragonborn, and Eladrin have as many as or more feats than the shadar-kai. And the gnolls have as many as or more feats than both the half-orc and the goliath.

Of your two examples, the shadar-kai (a PC race) has more feats than 11 of the PHB races. The gnoll (a monster race) is on par with the shifter, half-orc, goliath, and gnome races.

It seems that the original complaint is not supported at its level of hyperbole. However, it does appear that monster races get significantly less feat-treatment than do non-monster races.
#9

lady_ishtar

Jun 04, 2009 15:57:48 		and the Bladelings get what? one feat.
also, while gnolls do get some feat support, they get no class feat support.

there is also an issue of Paragon Paths. neither bladelings or gnolls get any unique paragon paths.

and i dont buy that monster races dont get as much support. it is more of an issue of where the race originally appears.

i guess in the end i just want some love for bladelings.
#10

Seeker95

Jun 04, 2009 17:53:18
i guess in the end i just want some love for bladelings.

You should have said that from the start! Far less antagonistic, and far more honest. Nobody can disagree when you express your feelings like that. And yes, the write-up in MotP is minimal as far as race write-ups go. Perhaps a Dragon ecology article or Playing X article is called for.
#11

Bolongo

Jun 06, 2009 5:49:24
i guess in the end i just want some love for bladelings.

Bladelings are in an entirely different category, the NPC/Monster race.

They will never get any kind of support (in the form of new racial feats, racial PPS or whatnot) until after they receive a proper PC race writeup. So maybe that's what you should be clamoring for instead.
#12

outlaw68

Jun 06, 2009 7:13:26
and the Bladelings get what? one feat.
also, while gnolls do get some feat support, they get no class feat support.

there is also an issue of Paragon Paths. neither bladelings or gnolls get any unique paragon paths.

and i dont buy that monster races dont get as much support. it is more of an issue of where the race originally appears.

i guess in the end i just want some love for bladelings.

I was under the impression that Bladeling were an NPC race, much like the racial write ups in the back of the two Monster Manuals.. and if my assumption is correct, there won;t be any support for them as PC's because they are not intended as a PC race.
#13

lady_ishtar

Jun 06, 2009 7:27:46 		i would say that it is just a monster PC race write up, but then why did they get a racial feat? no other MM races got racial feats? so what makes bladelings spacial?

but also, take the gnoll for example. it has a handful of feats in the article it appeared in, cool. but then as more books were released gnolls didn't get any support for those books. if you say they are just a monster race, fine. but then why did we get a full write up. and at what point a monster race becomes a pc race? after all we are getting a minotaur in phb3.

i hope revenants get more support than other Dragon races.
#14

Tharag_Bocc

Jun 06, 2009 7:32:01
Of your two examples, the shadar-kai (a PC race) has more feats than 11 of the PHB races. The gnoll (a monster race) is on par with the shifter, half-orc, goliath, and gnome races.

Exactly what is your basis for distinguishing shadar-kai as a PC race and gnolls as a "monster" race? They both first appeared as NPC races in the back of the first Monster Manual, then later appeared in a "Playing X" article in Dragon magazine (shadar-kai in #372, gnolls in #367).
#15

Grazel

Jun 06, 2009 22:28:14
i would say that it is just a monster PC race write up, but then why did they get a racial feat? no other MM races got racial feats? so what makes bladelings spacial?

but also, take the gnoll for example. it has a handful of feats in the article it appeared in, cool. but then as more books were released gnolls didn't get any support for those books. if you say they are just a monster race, fine. but then why did we get a full write up. and at what point a monster race becomes a pc race? after all we are getting a minotaur in phb3.

i hope revenants get more support than other Dragon races.

While bladelings do get a single racial feat they were still considered an NPC writeup which is why they appear in a 'DM' book not a player book.

We've not seen more support for Warforged yet and they were the first race to be put into Dragon. Of course they're being reprinted/updated in the EPG so we'll START to see support for them. Gnolls may appear later or may have been deemed not popular enough to support. Revenants may go the same way though if popular their support will likely be through future DDi articles since they are a 'DDi exclusive'. The DDi forums have a couple threads about this support (as well as for the upcoming assassin class).

I suspect any race that appears in Dragon/Dungeon will only see support there while races in books will recieve support in DDi for some things, and other books for the rest.
#16

outlaw68

Jun 06, 2009 23:17:31 		Something else supporting the fact that they are an NPC only race is the fact they don't show up in the character builder.
#17

Janx_14

Jun 06, 2009 23:36:10 		They are in my CB, along with every other MM race...

Only race that isn't showing up is Wilden for some reason.
#18

Grazel

Jun 07, 2009 0:28:16
Something else supporting the fact that they are an NPC only race is the fact they don't show up in the character builder.

Actually they do show up in the CB (at least the non-demo version).

They're the first race listed in the third section. The first section is all the PH1 races, the second section being the PH2 races. The third section is all the races with PC and NPC writeups from other sources (FRPG, Dragon, MotP, MM1 + 2) and likely where warforged and kalashtar will appear (or reappear for warforged with a new source) in July.
#19

Grazel

Jun 07, 2009 0:30:21
They are in my CB, along with every other MM race...

Only race that isn't showing up is Wilden for some reason.

The Wilden may not appear for a while. It was an early playtest and they may have decided it wsan't ready to be put in the CB yet. It'd be nice if was in there though and there's no new mechanics with the race so it should just be a bit of new data. Maybe we'll see it in the July update.
#20

outlaw68

Jun 07, 2009 4:14:54
Actually they do show up in the CB (at least the non-demo version).

They're the first race listed in the third section. The first section is all the PH1 races, the second section being the PH2 races. The third section is all the races with PC and NPC writeups from other sources (FRPG, Dragon, MotP, MM1 + 2) and likely where warforged and kalashtar will appear (or reappear for warforged with a new source) in July.

Ahh so they do, i stand corrected. :embarrass
#21

celticmutt

Jun 07, 2009 7:46:02
Actually they do show up in the CB (at least the non-demo version).

They're the first race listed in the third section. The first section is all the PH1 races, the second section being the PH2 races. The third section is all the races with PC and NPC writeups from other sources (FRPG, Dragon, MotP, MM1 + 2) and likely where warforged and kalashtar will appear (or reappear for warforged with a new source) in July.

I sorta feel it's stupid that every non-PHB race is still being lumped together. If they're going to seperate them, do it all the way, not some half-assed crap. I mean, make a section for each PHB, each MM, FRPG, EPG, Dragon, etc., not PHB1, PHB2, Everything Else.

Sorry, just a pet peeve.
#22

lady_ishtar

Jun 07, 2009 8:47:17
While bladelings do get a single racial feat they were still considered an NPC writeup which is why they appear in a 'DM' book not a player book.

since there are a number of paragon paths i would say that MotP is not a "DM only" book. sadly its not a "player only book either, but a relic from the 3.x age.

I suspect any race that appears in Dragon/Dungeon will only see support there while races in books will recieve support in DDi for some things, and other books for the rest.

that is probably the case, although i wish they got continual support.
#23

Grazel

Jun 08, 2009 4:59:02
since there are a number of paragon paths i would say that MotP is not a "DM only" book. sadly its not a "player only book either, but a relic from the 3.x age.



that is probably the case, although i wish they got continual support.

Well they may get continual support, at least the ones they feel popular enough. As others have stated it shouldn't be too hard to have an article for when a book comes out that covers the races/classes related to that book that are DDi exclusives (so say assassin is shadow and the shadow power book comes out, have a Dragon article on Assassins giving them new feats, pps, and builds).