Future?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

rmohrfun

Oct 22, 2010 12:32:56

I just finished watching the season final: part 1 of Project Runway last night. I found myself drawing parallels between my D&D experience and the show. It may sound odd but stay with me a moment. Creativity is creativity; whether you are designing high-fashion dresses or the latest new monster, class, adventure in the world of Forgotten Realms, Ebberon, Dark Sun or Gamma World. Just like the judges deem some dresses complete disasters, we the gaming consumers have the same job. We are the judges of the Dungeons and Dragons “fashion show”. Which adventures/classes/monsters are complete disasters and which ones are great?


 


To be direct, where is the game heading?  Or to be even more specific, who is whispering in your ear that what you are designing is what the gaming public wants?


 


I was 100% behind the change away from 3.5 to 4.0. Creating a 3.5 character took an entire evening (sometimes more). There were many bloated game options; you could spend hours to determining what you wanted to be. Additionally, you had to plan feats and power choices at level 1 to qualify for prestige classes. Now that we have the character builder (another great idea), it takes 5mins to create an open-ended character.


 


The great ideas seem to stop there however. One of the strengths of 3.5 was the Open Gaming License; allowing others to create and sell adventures and add-ons to the game. I don’t know all the details, but from what I heard you decided to charge Paizo a large sum of money to gain a license to continue to produce adventures for 4.0. They decided, correctly, to take all of their adventure developers and go work on their own world and products. 


 


As far as I know there are two adventure paths that take characters from level 1 all the way to level 30. TWO!?  Where are the rest? When are others being developed?


 


So here comes Essentials, a short 2 years after the delivery of 4.0.  (Version 3.5 was around for 10years?).  I still don’t know what Essentials is. Is it 4.5 as I have heard some people say? Is it D&D for Dummies?  Will 4.0 and Essentials exist harmoniously in the Character Builder? Did you decide releasing 4.0, that you didn’t care for it? Why did you decide to prioritize the Essentials product over more supporting material, i.e. adventures (you know those things that we use to “interact” with your product)?


 


Obviously, I have a subscription to Dungeon Magazine, since I have an Insider Subscription and enjoy the use of the Character Builder.  I don’t find the adventure a month worth my time to read. How am I supposed to enjoy creating a character for a ROLE PLAYING GAME if it is only for a single adventure? Adventure arcs and taking a character from level 1 to level 30 is what makes playing D&D fun (for me).  


 


Where are you getting your information about your demographics? I am a 40+ yr old man which works very hard for his disposable income. Income, that to this point, I have been willing to hand over to Wizards of the Coast. Given the current economy, I am looking very hard into areas where I spend my money. Just like investing, I want to know that if I am spending money on maintaining the character builder and my collection of 4.0 core rule books, is it going to be a worthwhile investment.  


 


Is it?


 


The group I am playing with is asking themselves the same questions I am; will 4.0 continue or will it be dropped for Essentials or some new version that you all are cooking up. We have been playing together for over 5 years now and find ourselves questioning your vision of the future (at least the glimpses we are getting of it).  Six people that have spent a good deal of time and money on books, adventures and supplemental supplies; aren’t those the type of groups you want to foster? What we seeing as a lack of vision is making us think twice about continuing to spend our time and money and energy on your products.


 


Given everything I have said above, here is what I am willing to spend my money on:


1)      New Adventure Arcs


2)      Boxes of preset monster miniatures that match the new Adventure Arcs – I would be willing to pay quite a bit of money for these packages/boxes (I guess that is the new buzzword)


3)      New Core 4.0 rule books. – I think there is a lot of 3.5 material you could still bring over.


4)      New Adventure Arcs


5)      Boxes of preset monster miniatures that match the new Adventure Arcs.


6)      A character builder that supports the 4.0 version of the game.


 


I hope that was clear. (Did he just repeat some items? Yes I did).


 


Any insight you can give on your vision of the future would be much appreciated, if I have completely missed the vision somewhere, please feel free to point in the right direction.

#2

MalakLightfoot

Oct 23, 2010 2:58:34

So here comes Essentials, a short 2 years after the delivery of 4.0.  (Version 3.5 was around for 10years?).  I still don’t know what Essentials is. Is it 4.5 as I have heard some people say? Is it D&D for Dummies?  Will 4.0 and Essentials exist harmoniously in the Character Builder? Did you decide releasing 4.0, that you didn’t care for it? Why did you decide to prioritize the Essentials product over more supporting material, i.e. adventures (you know those things that we use to “interact” with your product)?



 


3.5 was five years. (3.0 was three years).


You have a DDI subscription. It sounds like you try to stay informed. There is no excuse for you to still be asking these questions. All of the information was (and still is) readily available if you just read the Preview Articles from Dragon over the last few months. Granted, if you think everything someone at Wizards has to say on the subject is a lie, then the preview articles aren't going to do anything for you.


In short, Essentials is not 4.5, at least not any more than any other Rules Update over the last two years. It is a new entry point, aimed at new players and lapsed players from previous editions (all previous editions, not necessarily 3.x). The Essentials products are a self contained line of ten products that can be used harmoniously with all other published material. In February, we will have a book that gives multiclassing rules for the Essentials "sub-classes" and rules for swapping powers and features with previously published builds. This information is not included in the Essentials book for two reasons; they are advanced concepts, and they would betray the self contained nature of the products if they are going to fulfill their purpose as "evergreen" products.


Essentials was not "prioritized over other products." Essentials has been in development for a while, and it did not force anything else off the production schedule. They were tasked with making a new entry point, they went to work on it, and put it on the schedule. That's the long and short of it. And the real beauty of it is that even though it is aimed at new players, it can be dropped right into your existing campaign, just as if it were any splatbook.


 


Obviously, I have a subscription to Dungeon Magazine, since I have an Insider Subscription and enjoy the use of the Character Builder.  I don’t find the adventure a month worth my time to read. How am I supposed to enjoy creating a character for a ROLE PLAYING GAME if it is only for a single adventure? Adventure arcs and taking a character from level 1 to level 30 is what makes playing D&D fun (for me).


Dungeon has had two adventure arcs from 1-30, the Scales of War and the Chaos Scar (actually, the Chaos Scar is still ongoing). This is in addition to the H1 to H3 / P1 to P3 / E1 to E3 arc. They are currently publishing a new Heroic arc that started with the HS1: The Slaying Stone. There are two campaign books that will take a party all the way through Paragon Tier (Revenge of the Giants, and Tomb of Horrors).


There is more than "just a single adventure," but I'll get to that more in just a minute.


 

Where are you getting your information about your demographics? I am a 40+ yr old man which works very hard for his disposable income. Income, that to this point, I have been willing to hand over to Wizards of the Coast. Given the current economy, I am looking very hard into areas where I spend my money. Just like investing, I want to know that if I am spending money on maintaining the character builder and my collection of 4.0 core rule books, is it going to be a worthwhile investment.


Their demographic information is based partly on their sales. One thing that didn't sell well enough for Wizards in the previous edition was adventures. What did sell, and sell consistently, was Campaign Settings and splatbooks. This is because players feel compelled to buy those, while only DMs feel compelled to buy adventures. This means that, at most, one in five D&D players bought the modules. The actual number was probably much less if you consider all of the DMs who created their own or used third party adventures (like the excellently written Paizo stuff, as well as some of the great stuff that Goodman Games put out).


As for "an investment," don't make me laugh. Your "investment" is returned in fun. Your D&D books aren't collectible. They won't be worth hundreds of dollars in five or ten years. D&D is a hobby and a game, meant entirely for recreation. If you think you are going to get a "return" on your "investment" that goes beyond the fun you and friends have around the gaming table, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.


Even if Wizards stopped publishing 4E tomorrow, you could still have the same fun you were having yesterday, just like there are plenty of people still having fun playing 3.x, 2E, or any other "dead" system.


Will it exist "harmoniously" in the Character Builder? Presumably. Some of the things are already in, but because it isn't completely in yet, there are some bugs that need to be worked out. The DDI team says they are "back on schedule," which we can hope means that Dark Sun and Heroes of the Fallen Lands will be in the character builder on November 2nd. Then we will see how harmoniously it sits in the Builder. I expect it to have a few bugs to iron out at first because entirely new systems would have to have been created to handle the new elements that both Dark Sun and Essentials brought to the game.

#3

ah_stormbringer

Oct 24, 2010 8:33:07 		While essentials was said to be a easier version of 4th ed it is not the learning curve is almost as steep. I think the designers were told to put something new out due to the slowing sales of existing 4th ed products such as PHB1 and others. This has hasbro dirty little finger prints all over it. They have also said all new products will follow the essentials design so in a way 4.0 is done because looking at the essentials classes they resemble there 4.0 cousins only vaguely. This to me is not a good move on wizards part they will most likely fragment the community more than it already is. look at all the players still playing previous editions and not playing 4.0. They all say their edition is the best or they do not like the direction that D&D has taken. Change for the sake of change is almost never a good move but change for improvement is almost always welcomed, this is something the gaming companies may never figure out but hey its a business after all.
#4

mellored

Oct 24, 2010 10:11:30 		I don't see the community fragmenting.  I see opinions fragmenting (or rather, colliding).

People will love/hate certain classes/builds, but as long as they can all be played at the same table, the community will grow.
#5

ADHadh

Oct 24, 2010 10:20:01 		I see Essentials as a simpler version - Ess classes rarely step outside their base role, unlike PHB ones and their development is more restricted. I don't know if it's actually easier to play though.
#6

strand0

Oct 24, 2010 23:45:17

Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.

#7

Elemental_Elf

Oct 25, 2010 0:30:55

Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.




It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.

As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

As for adventures, actually, as has been pointed out, there are a few more 1 to 30 adventure paths out there than you stated. Adventure paths that span a short story arc (maybe a few levels) are typically much more popular since they can be inserted into an pretty much any ongoing campaign with a little work on the DM's part (renaming, refluffing, etc.) where as an entire 1 to 30th level adventure path (read: campaign) is not nearly as modular.If a product is not modular (i.e. not having large appeal), then it will inherently sell less books.

Example: Books that cater to player's are always big sellers since they appeal to 5 out of the 6 people at a standard sized table. Books that focus on campaign settings (like Eberron or FR) will typically sell very well for groups that play in that given setting. Books like Adventures (in general) are some of the lowest sellers because they appeal to a niche market (like Campaign settings) and are typically only purchased by a single person at the table (the DM).
#8

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 8:41:39
Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.

I don't think they'll directly reprint the PHB, but they will reprint the content.

The rules go went into the rules compendium (already out).

The classes (at least most of them) will go in the class compendium (not out yet).
#9

Neptune0923

Oct 25, 2010 13:56:30 		Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).


This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

Shakespeare said:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."



Neptune says:
If it looks like poop and it smells like poop, it's probably poop.



#10

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 14:47:22
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.
#11

peterthecynic

Oct 25, 2010 15:53:07
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.




The trouble is Mellored that I don't like the essentials style of design build for PCs. I consider it a backwards step in character design, so whilst I've bought all the splat books up till now, I'm not buying essentials.

I'll happily play or DM alongside others who wish to have essentials characters as long as I don't have to use them.

As they design more Essentials style bits then the less I buy. Further the greater the emphasis on Essentials articles in Dragon, the less relevence it will have for me, so the less likely I am to renew my subscription.

I doubt I'm alone in this, so that is a split in the community and the only question is if I'm a vocal minority or not. WotC will obviously find out with the initial few months sales figures.

If it does work for them - so be it - I do understand that in the end the bottom line means everything.

On an unrelated topic - also I have to wonder what an earth they think they are doing with DDI. I love the Character Builder, but it says something when they can't even get that updated to create essentials characters at the moment - more than a month after the 1st release. It absolutely should have been ready to go live with the release of essentials.

#12

Neptune0923

Oct 25, 2010 16:02:04 		Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.

#13

Thomson

Oct 25, 2010 16:04:36


It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.


Nope. Part of Player's Handbook I will be revived in Heroes of Sword and Spell.
Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.



Well I would definitely wait for HoSaS and see what they do.
#14

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 16:12:47
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.

The trouble is Mellored that I don't like the essentials style of design build for PCs. I consider it a backwards step in character design, so whilst I've bought all the splat books up till now, I'm not buying essentials.

I'll happily play or DM alongside others who wish to have essentials characters as long as I don't have to use them.

As they design more Essentials style bits then the less I buy. Further the greater the emphasis on Essentials articles in Dragon, the less relevence it will have for me, so the less likely I am to renew my subscription.

I doubt I'm alone in this, so that is a split in the community and the only question is if I'm a vocal minority or not. WotC will obviously find out with the initial few months sales figures.

You not alone, but your also not seeing everything. 

Right now, only 1/2 the new sub-classes deviated substantialy from previous 4e classes (Slayer/Thief/Knight/Assassin vs Warpriest(x2)/Mage(x3)  Actually that's 4 vs 5 so less then half).

So... it stand to reason, that 1/2 of the new stuff will be "essentialized" while 1/2 is "Pre-E style".  Of course there's a room for a big margine of error, since we've only seen 1 book, but nothing, and i mean nothing, that i've seen implies that they will "rip up" OR "replace" the PHB stuff.

At worst, you'll be stuck with the stuff you already have.  Though i'm still quite sure they'll come out with at least some "Pre-E" classes and support.

Weather "some" is enough for you to keep buying or not.. I have no idea.  You'll have to wait and see.

Edit: Oops, i seemed to have mistake you for the previous poster...
#15

thax

Oct 25, 2010 19:45:33 		Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?
#16

strand0

Oct 25, 2010 21:49:12
It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.


Nope. Part of Player's Handbook I will be revived in Heroes of Sword and Spell.
Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.

Well I would definitely wait for HoSaS and see what they do.

The reason I asked was that when Essentials was early in its announcements, someone (with WotC cred') said that the Original CORE books would not be going out of print. A new and errata'd printing was assured.

So, if they have decided to let the original CORE lapse... what does that say about edition change?
#17

thax

Oct 25, 2010 22:43:30 		You didn't just say CORE, did you? I will assume for the moment you mean the PHB (1-2-3) DMG (1-2) and the MM (1-2-3) for the "core" books. Wizards would hasten to tell you that all the books not 3pp are "core."

No, they are not going to laspe. See my post above.
#18

Thomson

Oct 26, 2010 6:31:04
So, if they have decided to let the original CORE lapse... what does that say about edition change?



Basically there is no way to say essentials is 4.5 now.

With 3.5 they basically reprinted the three core books with different content. A 3.5 ranger was very different from a 3.0 ranger. It just was *better*

The knight build for the fighter in essentials is definitely very different from a guardian fighter. It is less versatile but more competent in its role.

But builds where already very different in 4e. A battle rager has IMO less in common with a guardian fighter.

So, essentials cleaned up a lot of stuff, provided some interesting options but it did not change anything - yet.

What has been changed was all very necessary errata and has been published as such.



#19

mellored

Oct 26, 2010 9:57:02
The paladin preview, had fighter features, and started reciving daily powers at 5th lvl. Do we have an explanation on this? Why deviate from the design in this fashion.

Because they wanted to.  That's what they mean by "open up design space".

There's going to be several classes that have deviated designs, and things set-ups that we've never seen before.  Like..
1 at-will, 1 enounter, and extra dailies
1 at-will with an a few encounter stance
4 at-wills no enounters and some dailies
X at-wills, Y enounters, and Z dailies, and 1 weekly*

With varing degrees of "you get this one" and "you choose one".

*ok, there probably won't be a weekly power.
#20

Elemental_Elf

Oct 26, 2010 13:13:22
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.
#21

gold_piece

Oct 26, 2010 14:39:48
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.



WotC really needs to rename/remove the "core" designation on PHB1/MM1/DMG1 so that new folks won't get confused.  Just imagine a new player or DM going to a store.

Do I buy "core" to get started? (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy "essentials" to get started?  (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy both?

It really is very confusing.
#22

Relo

Oct 26, 2010 16:46:09
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.



WotC really needs to rename/remove the "core" designation on PHB1/MM1/DMG1 so that new folks won't get confused.  Just imagine a new player or DM going to a store.

Do I buy "core" to get started? (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy "essentials" to get started?  (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy both?

It really is very confusing.


Thats just a reason not to nuy it on the internet, as your favorite FLGS will have someone walking there whose job it is to know what to start with. But then agian it is still confusing.
#23

thax

Oct 26, 2010 22:11:52 		You are hearing something completely different than me, and I was there. They never said anything of the sort, the PHB's are quite safe.

They even confirmed that when they do reprint the PHB, when the current stock runs out, that the Errata will be included in.

Essentuals is a point of entry, not the be all of the overall edition. The "core" books are still valid and relivent.
#24

The_Crimson_Dawn

Oct 26, 2010 22:18:21 		Some of this will depend on what is found in the class compenium.  If it actually contains complete Players Handbook classes with the updates then I think you can say that there is little reason to make a new printing of the PHB.  In this case they will try to sell you the last of the originals and promote the use of other books.     
#25

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 1:26:33
You are hearing something completely different than me, and I was there. They never said anything of the sort, the PHB's are quite safe.

They even confirmed that when they do reprint the PHB, when the current stock runs out, that the Errata will be included in.

Essentuals is a point of entry, not the be all of the overall edition. The "core" books are still valid and relivent.



"These Essential products, there's 10 of them, they’re going to be in book stores and game stores all the time, so that when people come in that want to play the game for the first time they only see Player's Handbook II and number 1 isn't on sale because it's out of stock." ~ Bill Slavicsek at the GenCon Panel Design & Development (starting around 6:48).

To me that says nothing if not - we're canning the PHB I and replacing it with Essentials.

Which will be fine if what The_Crimson_Dawn said turns out to be true. If WotC re-prints the PHB classes in a compendium then there is zero reason to keep the PHB I around. Essentials is replacing the original three books and the Class Compendium will simply be the nail in the coffin.

If the Class Compendium is not a reprint of the PHB classes, then we will have a problem (which will have to be dealt with in some way by WotC).



#26

Duskweaver

Oct 27, 2010 1:57:28
"These Essential products, there's 10 of them, they’re going to be in book stores and game stores all the time, so that when people come in that want to play the game for the first time they only see Player's Handbook II and number 1 isn't on sale because it's out of stock." ~ Bill Slavicsek at the GenCon Panel Design & Development (starting around 6:48).


Bill is using that as an example of a situation that could theoretically arise in a particular gaming store at a particular time, and which an 'evergreen' product line neatly avoids. Note "out of stock", not "out of print". You have entirely misunderstood Bill's point in that quote.

ETA: After viewing the clip you linked to, I can see how you came to your conclusion. Bill didn't explain himself well there at all. IIRC, he clarified the issue either later in that seminar or in one of the others, but it's been a while since I listened to the GenCon seminar recordings and I don't have the time to sit and listen through them all again. Maybe thaX's memory is better, since he was actually there?
#27

JohnLynch

Oct 27, 2010 4:12:21
What are you smoking?

Says the person who believes half-orcs and dragonborn are the same thing.
#28

Neptune0923

Oct 27, 2010 8:48:48

Oct 25, 2010 -- 8:45PM, thaX wrote:
What are you smoking?

#29

rmohrfun

Oct 27, 2010 10:52:16 		My intent to posting this was to get some clarity from the community. It sounds like there is anything but clarity in the community.

Currently, I am a player that is frustrated by the changes and I don't see them as helpful to the game overall. Frustration over the timing (what seems like so quickly after the intial release of 4e) and the amount of change (I need to do a bit more research here; but it seems like a large change.)

I sent the same post to the Wizards Support. They answered with, "Essentials is a way to bring new players into the game". (Their response was much longer, so I am paraphrasing a great deal.) I think that is great goal, but it sounds like most of the community is "divided" on what exactly that means.

Obviously Wizards needs to step in a give a concrete plan on what exactly is going to happen. The (perceived?) vaugness sounds like it is fracturing the community.
#30

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 11:44:49

I think the basic problem is that WotC has lost a significant portion of the market share to Paizo. WotC thought the design of 4E would be so intuitive that the old players would forgive it's untraditional nature and embrace it whole hog. At the Same time, WotC wanted to draw in a whole new generation of gamers that would sustain the hobby for years to come.

What ended up happening was that a large percentage of the player base was alienated by the non-traditional nature of 4E and left. 4E has been really good at attracting new players but last month's sales report shown that WotC has not attracted enough new players to make up for those who quit 4E.

There's a lot of blame to spread around for this fact but regardless the sales figures do not lie.

I'm sure WotC has been watching this worrying trend of less and less sales, while at the same time watching Paizo sky rocket up the ladder for well over a year now.

This is why Essentials was released - WotC needed a game changer and that's really what Essentials is. By going back to fluff oriented material, by going back to a simpler class design, by going back on the core 4E values, WotC hopes to siphon off enough Pathfinder players and enough new players to stave off Paizo.


The reason WotC is being so hush hush about the future is they want to see how well Essentials does. If it performs stupendously, you better believe that Essentials is the way forward, if it performs under expectations it will probably be minimized. We just have to wait and see.

#31

gold_piece

Oct 27, 2010 12:39:32

I think the basic problem is that WotC has lost a significant portion of the market share to Paizo. WotC thought the design of 4E would be so intuitive that the old players would forgive it's untraditional nature and embrace it whole hog. At the Same time, WotC wanted to draw in a whole new generation of gamers that would sustain the hobby for years to come.

What ended up happening was that a large percentage of the player base was alienated by the non-traditional nature of 4E and left. 4E has been really good at attracting new players but last month's sales report shown that WotC has not attracted enough new players to make up for those who quit 4E.

There's a lot of blame to spread around for this fact but regardless the sales figures do not lie.

I'm sure WotC has been watching this worrying trend of less and less sales, while at the same time watching Paizo sky rocket up the ladder for well over a year now.

This is why Essentials was released - WotC needed a game changer and that's really what Essentials is. By going back to fluff oriented material, by going back to a simpler class design, by going back on the core 4E values, WotC hopes to siphon off enough Pathfinder players and enough new players to stave off Paizo.


The reason WotC is being so hush hush about the future is they want to see how well Essentials does. If it performs stupendously, you better believe that Essentials is the way forward, if it performs under expectations it will probably be minimized. We just have to wait and see.




Excellent post.  Thank you.
#32

thax

Oct 27, 2010 18:30:19 		I think the allure of Pathfinder isn't the System is uses, but the setting. I would recomend more support for the FR/Ebberon/Dark Sun settings as well as the Essentials realese. Neverwinter is a good start, and they seemed to like my suggestion for a Sharn book for Ebberon perhaps for 2012, but I think more support in Dragon (and a couple of Dungeon's) coupled with some other books that could be done would help in this regard.
#33

ah_stormbringer

Oct 27, 2010 20:27:53 		Than I think you are partly right about pathfinders additional support for there setting but I know alot of players that use it just for the rules. Alot of 3.x players do not like the 4th-essentails rules and they paly it as it is the closest thing they can get to 3.x. They lost alot of players with the switch to 4.0 and have not recovered from that and if essentails fails it will be swept under the rug without any fanfare form WOTC.
#34

thax

Oct 27, 2010 20:43:16 		While I like the fact that the Sorcerer is a full class, you still have the Wizard doing the cast and forgetful, the Druid still overall ubar charged, and the overall power creep that still exists, it is still a system that had a reason for the edition change. When players go to Pathfinder, not only do they see the old familar system with some 4th edition influence, but a kick ass setting that is well written and has fantastic art.

#35

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 22:14:32

3.5/PF is as complex and broken as the group allows it to be. In the group I play with, for example, Melee characters dominate the scene with the Warblade and the Swordsage topping the damage charts, while the Druid focuses on healing and AOEs to back them up. That is not a common occurrence in the realm of Dungeons & Theory the internet traffics in but 5 will get you 10 that is much more akin to the way the silent majority of 3.x groups play.

At any rate, Pathfinder's success can be attributed to many things, principally a great company that loves and supports its properties with solid adventures, play-tested mechanics and a really cool campaign setting. 4E on the other hand promised us the world and gave us a very untraditional fluff-light D&D game, a character generator, a piece of a setting in the DMG, lack of support for real settings, book bloat and, above all else, a closed-source game that does not give third parties the kind of freedom they enjoyed during the 3.x OGL.

Don't get me wrong I love 4E but anyone can see the blame for why D&D is not doing so well right now lies squarely with the leadership at WotC. The sudden change in design philosophy caused by Essentials is only going to fracture the base even more than 4E had. One can only hope that Essentials is swept under the rug or becomes an enormous success quickly, so as to re-unite the 4E player base.

#36

Thomson

Oct 28, 2010 2:53:47
 One can only hope that Essentials is swept under the rug or becomes an enormous success quickly, so as to re-unite the 4E player base.



I recieved the DM Toolkit yesterday. As all essentials products I got (with the exception of the dreaded Red Box) it is a top notch product.

If people wouldn't have such strong opinions (which I can understand since the previews of the essential classes where desastrous) and just give it a try I am pretty sure most of them would be surprised.

#37

Neptune0923

Oct 28, 2010 14:01:53

If people wouldn't have such strong opinions (which I can understand since the previews of the essential classes where desastrous) and just give it a try I am pretty sure most of them would be surprised.


I've given it a try. I play Essentials every Wednesday.

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?
#38

mellored

Oct 28, 2010 14:32:56
I've given it a try. I play Essentials every Wednesday.

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?

It's the same system.  You can have the Knight and a regular Sword & Board fighter together in the same game.

So play whatever character you like.
#39

The_Crimson_Dawn

Oct 28, 2010 15:10:29 		They work fine together it is more a point of what kind of character do you want to play.. I love characters that use a lot of passive abilities so essential style martial classes work for me.  Others like activated powers so they like the classic fighter.
#40

MalakLightfoot

Oct 28, 2010 16:16:43

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?



Play 4E.

Whether you do that with an Essentials build, or Powers and Feats from Essentials with characters that came before is up to you. You can even ignore anything in Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms if you want to, and you will still be playing 4E.

I guess what I am saying is, why do you think there are two systems, when there is only one?

#42

MalakLightfoot

Oct 23, 2010 2:58:34

So here comes Essentials, a short 2 years after the delivery of 4.0.  (Version 3.5 was around for 10years?).  I still don’t know what Essentials is. Is it 4.5 as I have heard some people say? Is it D&D for Dummies?  Will 4.0 and Essentials exist harmoniously in the Character Builder? Did you decide releasing 4.0, that you didn’t care for it? Why did you decide to prioritize the Essentials product over more supporting material, i.e. adventures (you know those things that we use to “interact” with your product)?



 


3.5 was five years. (3.0 was three years).


You have a DDI subscription. It sounds like you try to stay informed. There is no excuse for you to still be asking these questions. All of the information was (and still is) readily available if you just read the Preview Articles from Dragon over the last few months. Granted, if you think everything someone at Wizards has to say on the subject is a lie, then the preview articles aren't going to do anything for you.


In short, Essentials is not 4.5, at least not any more than any other Rules Update over the last two years. It is a new entry point, aimed at new players and lapsed players from previous editions (all previous editions, not necessarily 3.x). The Essentials products are a self contained line of ten products that can be used harmoniously with all other published material. In February, we will have a book that gives multiclassing rules for the Essentials "sub-classes" and rules for swapping powers and features with previously published builds. This information is not included in the Essentials book for two reasons; they are advanced concepts, and they would betray the self contained nature of the products if they are going to fulfill their purpose as "evergreen" products.


Essentials was not "prioritized over other products." Essentials has been in development for a while, and it did not force anything else off the production schedule. They were tasked with making a new entry point, they went to work on it, and put it on the schedule. That's the long and short of it. And the real beauty of it is that even though it is aimed at new players, it can be dropped right into your existing campaign, just as if it were any splatbook.


 


Obviously, I have a subscription to Dungeon Magazine, since I have an Insider Subscription and enjoy the use of the Character Builder.  I don’t find the adventure a month worth my time to read. How am I supposed to enjoy creating a character for a ROLE PLAYING GAME if it is only for a single adventure? Adventure arcs and taking a character from level 1 to level 30 is what makes playing D&D fun (for me).


Dungeon has had two adventure arcs from 1-30, the Scales of War and the Chaos Scar (actually, the Chaos Scar is still ongoing). This is in addition to the H1 to H3 / P1 to P3 / E1 to E3 arc. They are currently publishing a new Heroic arc that started with the HS1: The Slaying Stone. There are two campaign books that will take a party all the way through Paragon Tier (Revenge of the Giants, and Tomb of Horrors).


There is more than "just a single adventure," but I'll get to that more in just a minute.


 

Where are you getting your information about your demographics? I am a 40+ yr old man which works very hard for his disposable income. Income, that to this point, I have been willing to hand over to Wizards of the Coast. Given the current economy, I am looking very hard into areas where I spend my money. Just like investing, I want to know that if I am spending money on maintaining the character builder and my collection of 4.0 core rule books, is it going to be a worthwhile investment.


Their demographic information is based partly on their sales. One thing that didn't sell well enough for Wizards in the previous edition was adventures. What did sell, and sell consistently, was Campaign Settings and splatbooks. This is because players feel compelled to buy those, while only DMs feel compelled to buy adventures. This means that, at most, one in five D&D players bought the modules. The actual number was probably much less if you consider all of the DMs who created their own or used third party adventures (like the excellently written Paizo stuff, as well as some of the great stuff that Goodman Games put out).


As for "an investment," don't make me laugh. Your "investment" is returned in fun. Your D&D books aren't collectible. They won't be worth hundreds of dollars in five or ten years. D&D is a hobby and a game, meant entirely for recreation. If you think you are going to get a "return" on your "investment" that goes beyond the fun you and friends have around the gaming table, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.


Even if Wizards stopped publishing 4E tomorrow, you could still have the same fun you were having yesterday, just like there are plenty of people still having fun playing 3.x, 2E, or any other "dead" system.


Will it exist "harmoniously" in the Character Builder? Presumably. Some of the things are already in, but because it isn't completely in yet, there are some bugs that need to be worked out. The DDI team says they are "back on schedule," which we can hope means that Dark Sun and Heroes of the Fallen Lands will be in the character builder on November 2nd. Then we will see how harmoniously it sits in the Builder. I expect it to have a few bugs to iron out at first because entirely new systems would have to have been created to handle the new elements that both Dark Sun and Essentials brought to the game.

#43

ah_stormbringer

Oct 24, 2010 8:33:07 		While essentials was said to be a easier version of 4th ed it is not the learning curve is almost as steep. I think the designers were told to put something new out due to the slowing sales of existing 4th ed products such as PHB1 and others. This has hasbro dirty little finger prints all over it. They have also said all new products will follow the essentials design so in a way 4.0 is done because looking at the essentials classes they resemble there 4.0 cousins only vaguely. This to me is not a good move on wizards part they will most likely fragment the community more than it already is. look at all the players still playing previous editions and not playing 4.0. They all say their edition is the best or they do not like the direction that D&D has taken. Change for the sake of change is almost never a good move but change for improvement is almost always welcomed, this is something the gaming companies may never figure out but hey its a business after all.
#44

mellored

Oct 24, 2010 10:11:30 		I don't see the community fragmenting.  I see opinions fragmenting (or rather, colliding).

People will love/hate certain classes/builds, but as long as they can all be played at the same table, the community will grow.
#45

ADHadh

Oct 24, 2010 10:20:01 		I see Essentials as a simpler version - Ess classes rarely step outside their base role, unlike PHB ones and their development is more restricted. I don't know if it's actually easier to play though.
#46

strand0

Oct 24, 2010 23:45:17

Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.

#47

Elemental_Elf

Oct 25, 2010 0:30:55

Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.




It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.

As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

As for adventures, actually, as has been pointed out, there are a few more 1 to 30 adventure paths out there than you stated. Adventure paths that span a short story arc (maybe a few levels) are typically much more popular since they can be inserted into an pretty much any ongoing campaign with a little work on the DM's part (renaming, refluffing, etc.) where as an entire 1 to 30th level adventure path (read: campaign) is not nearly as modular.If a product is not modular (i.e. not having large appeal), then it will inherently sell less books.

Example: Books that cater to player's are always big sellers since they appeal to 5 out of the 6 people at a standard sized table. Books that focus on campaign settings (like Eberron or FR) will typically sell very well for groups that play in that given setting. Books like Adventures (in general) are some of the lowest sellers because they appeal to a niche market (like Campaign settings) and are typically only purchased by a single person at the table (the DM).
#48

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 8:41:39
Anyone know when the new Player Handbook (supposedly with errata included) will be printed.

I don't think they'll directly reprint the PHB, but they will reprint the content.

The rules go went into the rules compendium (already out).

The classes (at least most of them) will go in the class compendium (not out yet).
#49

Neptune0923

Oct 25, 2010 13:56:30 		Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).


This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

Shakespeare said:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."



Neptune says:
If it looks like poop and it smells like poop, it's probably poop.



#50

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 14:47:22
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.
#51

peterthecynic

Oct 25, 2010 15:53:07
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.




The trouble is Mellored that I don't like the essentials style of design build for PCs. I consider it a backwards step in character design, so whilst I've bought all the splat books up till now, I'm not buying essentials.

I'll happily play or DM alongside others who wish to have essentials characters as long as I don't have to use them.

As they design more Essentials style bits then the less I buy. Further the greater the emphasis on Essentials articles in Dragon, the less relevence it will have for me, so the less likely I am to renew my subscription.

I doubt I'm alone in this, so that is a split in the community and the only question is if I'm a vocal minority or not. WotC will obviously find out with the initial few months sales figures.

If it does work for them - so be it - I do understand that in the end the bottom line means everything.

On an unrelated topic - also I have to wonder what an earth they think they are doing with DDI. I love the Character Builder, but it says something when they can't even get that updated to create essentials characters at the moment - more than a month after the 1st release. It absolutely should have been ready to go live with the release of essentials.

#52

Neptune0923

Oct 25, 2010 16:02:04 		Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.

#53

Thomson

Oct 25, 2010 16:04:36


It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.


Nope. Part of Player's Handbook I will be revived in Heroes of Sword and Spell.
Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.



Well I would definitely wait for HoSaS and see what they do.
#54

mellored

Oct 25, 2010 16:12:47
Elemental Elf said:
As for the OP's questions - the Essentials' style (i.e. lay out and more fluff) is the new direction for D&D but that does not mean all new classes will be like the Essentials or that older pre-essentials classes will go unsupported. The reason the classes in the HoT books are named after their more complex Pre-Essential's cousins is because WotC wants you to keep using all your old books with these new books. Essentials is not D&D 5E or even 4.5, Essentials is just a new way to play the game (much the same way Psionics was a brand new way to play).

This sounds like the drivil that one expects from politicians, salesmen and lawyers.

Here's what I heard: "We're going to rip up the PHB and replace it with Essentials but we want to avoid getting blamed for breaking our word by putting out a new release so we're not giving it a number. "

People hear what they want to hear.

The trouble is Mellored that I don't like the essentials style of design build for PCs. I consider it a backwards step in character design, so whilst I've bought all the splat books up till now, I'm not buying essentials.

I'll happily play or DM alongside others who wish to have essentials characters as long as I don't have to use them.

As they design more Essentials style bits then the less I buy. Further the greater the emphasis on Essentials articles in Dragon, the less relevence it will have for me, so the less likely I am to renew my subscription.

I doubt I'm alone in this, so that is a split in the community and the only question is if I'm a vocal minority or not. WotC will obviously find out with the initial few months sales figures.

You not alone, but your also not seeing everything. 

Right now, only 1/2 the new sub-classes deviated substantialy from previous 4e classes (Slayer/Thief/Knight/Assassin vs Warpriest(x2)/Mage(x3)  Actually that's 4 vs 5 so less then half).

So... it stand to reason, that 1/2 of the new stuff will be "essentialized" while 1/2 is "Pre-E style".  Of course there's a room for a big margine of error, since we've only seen 1 book, but nothing, and i mean nothing, that i've seen implies that they will "rip up" OR "replace" the PHB stuff.

At worst, you'll be stuck with the stuff you already have.  Though i'm still quite sure they'll come out with at least some "Pre-E" classes and support.

Weather "some" is enough for you to keep buying or not.. I have no idea.  You'll have to wait and see.

Edit: Oops, i seemed to have mistake you for the previous poster...
#55

thax

Oct 25, 2010 19:45:33 		Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?
#56

strand0

Oct 25, 2010 21:49:12
It's  already been printed, it's called Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Forgotten Lands and Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms.

As per the D&D Panel on Design and Development at GenCon (starting at 6:27), the Player's handbook I will cease to be produced and the Essentials line will replace it.


Nope. Part of Player's Handbook I will be revived in Heroes of Sword and Spell.
Well, it's not what I WANT to hear, it's what I hear. 

To me, when you say that the old PHB is no longer going to get printed and that we'll start using what's in the essentials books instead, it's a new edition - no matter what kind of spin they put on it.

Well I would definitely wait for HoSaS and see what they do.

The reason I asked was that when Essentials was early in its announcements, someone (with WotC cred') said that the Original CORE books would not be going out of print. A new and errata'd printing was assured.

So, if they have decided to let the original CORE lapse... what does that say about edition change?
#57

thax

Oct 25, 2010 22:43:30 		You didn't just say CORE, did you? I will assume for the moment you mean the PHB (1-2-3) DMG (1-2) and the MM (1-2-3) for the "core" books. Wizards would hasten to tell you that all the books not 3pp are "core."

No, they are not going to laspe. See my post above.
#58

Thomson

Oct 26, 2010 6:31:04
So, if they have decided to let the original CORE lapse... what does that say about edition change?



Basically there is no way to say essentials is 4.5 now.

With 3.5 they basically reprinted the three core books with different content. A 3.5 ranger was very different from a 3.0 ranger. It just was *better*

The knight build for the fighter in essentials is definitely very different from a guardian fighter. It is less versatile but more competent in its role.

But builds where already very different in 4e. A battle rager has IMO less in common with a guardian fighter.

So, essentials cleaned up a lot of stuff, provided some interesting options but it did not change anything - yet.

What has been changed was all very necessary errata and has been published as such.



#59

mellored

Oct 26, 2010 9:57:02
The paladin preview, had fighter features, and started reciving daily powers at 5th lvl. Do we have an explanation on this? Why deviate from the design in this fashion.

Because they wanted to.  That's what they mean by "open up design space".

There's going to be several classes that have deviated designs, and things set-ups that we've never seen before.  Like..
1 at-will, 1 enounter, and extra dailies
1 at-will with an a few encounter stance
4 at-wills no enounters and some dailies
X at-wills, Y enounters, and Z dailies, and 1 weekly*

With varing degrees of "you get this one" and "you choose one".

*ok, there probably won't be a weekly power.
#60

Elemental_Elf

Oct 26, 2010 13:13:22
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.
#61

gold_piece

Oct 26, 2010 14:39:48
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.



WotC really needs to rename/remove the "core" designation on PHB1/MM1/DMG1 so that new folks won't get confused.  Just imagine a new player or DM going to a store.

Do I buy "core" to get started? (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy "essentials" to get started?  (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy both?

It really is very confusing.
#62

Relo

Oct 26, 2010 16:46:09
Dude, they never said that the PHB (1) would be discontinued. There is an abundance of PHB's in storage, so printing more makes no sense. When another printing is warrented, it will be updated to include the errata within. What was said in the seminar was that a new printing for the PHB is most likely two years away, depending on sales of the current stock.


What are you smoking?



That's wishful thinking.

It is clearly stated in the panel that WotC does not want to confuse new players by having both PHB I's and Essentials on the same book stands long-term. WotC wants people to start with Essentials, then branch off and buy PHB II & III as well as the new class compendium books.

Essentials is replacing the original three 4E books.



WotC really needs to rename/remove the "core" designation on PHB1/MM1/DMG1 so that new folks won't get confused.  Just imagine a new player or DM going to a store.

Do I buy "core" to get started? (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy "essentials" to get started?  (If you read the back, it sounds like this is the place to start.)
Do I buy both?

It really is very confusing.


Thats just a reason not to nuy it on the internet, as your favorite FLGS will have someone walking there whose job it is to know what to start with. But then agian it is still confusing.
#63

thax

Oct 26, 2010 22:11:52 		You are hearing something completely different than me, and I was there. They never said anything of the sort, the PHB's are quite safe.

They even confirmed that when they do reprint the PHB, when the current stock runs out, that the Errata will be included in.

Essentuals is a point of entry, not the be all of the overall edition. The "core" books are still valid and relivent.
#64

The_Crimson_Dawn

Oct 26, 2010 22:18:21 		Some of this will depend on what is found in the class compenium.  If it actually contains complete Players Handbook classes with the updates then I think you can say that there is little reason to make a new printing of the PHB.  In this case they will try to sell you the last of the originals and promote the use of other books.     
#65

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 1:26:33
You are hearing something completely different than me, and I was there. They never said anything of the sort, the PHB's are quite safe.

They even confirmed that when they do reprint the PHB, when the current stock runs out, that the Errata will be included in.

Essentuals is a point of entry, not the be all of the overall edition. The "core" books are still valid and relivent.



"These Essential products, there's 10 of them, they’re going to be in book stores and game stores all the time, so that when people come in that want to play the game for the first time they only see Player's Handbook II and number 1 isn't on sale because it's out of stock." ~ Bill Slavicsek at the GenCon Panel Design & Development (starting around 6:48).

To me that says nothing if not - we're canning the PHB I and replacing it with Essentials.

Which will be fine if what The_Crimson_Dawn said turns out to be true. If WotC re-prints the PHB classes in a compendium then there is zero reason to keep the PHB I around. Essentials is replacing the original three books and the Class Compendium will simply be the nail in the coffin.

If the Class Compendium is not a reprint of the PHB classes, then we will have a problem (which will have to be dealt with in some way by WotC).



#66

Duskweaver

Oct 27, 2010 1:57:28
"These Essential products, there's 10 of them, they’re going to be in book stores and game stores all the time, so that when people come in that want to play the game for the first time they only see Player's Handbook II and number 1 isn't on sale because it's out of stock." ~ Bill Slavicsek at the GenCon Panel Design & Development (starting around 6:48).


Bill is using that as an example of a situation that could theoretically arise in a particular gaming store at a particular time, and which an 'evergreen' product line neatly avoids. Note "out of stock", not "out of print". You have entirely misunderstood Bill's point in that quote.

ETA: After viewing the clip you linked to, I can see how you came to your conclusion. Bill didn't explain himself well there at all. IIRC, he clarified the issue either later in that seminar or in one of the others, but it's been a while since I listened to the GenCon seminar recordings and I don't have the time to sit and listen through them all again. Maybe thaX's memory is better, since he was actually there?
#67

JohnLynch

Oct 27, 2010 4:12:21
What are you smoking?

Says the person who believes half-orcs and dragonborn are the same thing.
#68

Neptune0923

Oct 27, 2010 8:48:48

Oct 25, 2010 -- 8:45PM, thaX wrote:
What are you smoking?

#69

rmohrfun

Oct 27, 2010 10:52:16 		My intent to posting this was to get some clarity from the community. It sounds like there is anything but clarity in the community.

Currently, I am a player that is frustrated by the changes and I don't see them as helpful to the game overall. Frustration over the timing (what seems like so quickly after the intial release of 4e) and the amount of change (I need to do a bit more research here; but it seems like a large change.)

I sent the same post to the Wizards Support. They answered with, "Essentials is a way to bring new players into the game". (Their response was much longer, so I am paraphrasing a great deal.) I think that is great goal, but it sounds like most of the community is "divided" on what exactly that means.

Obviously Wizards needs to step in a give a concrete plan on what exactly is going to happen. The (perceived?) vaugness sounds like it is fracturing the community.
#70

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 11:44:49

I think the basic problem is that WotC has lost a significant portion of the market share to Paizo. WotC thought the design of 4E would be so intuitive that the old players would forgive it's untraditional nature and embrace it whole hog. At the Same time, WotC wanted to draw in a whole new generation of gamers that would sustain the hobby for years to come.

What ended up happening was that a large percentage of the player base was alienated by the non-traditional nature of 4E and left. 4E has been really good at attracting new players but last month's sales report shown that WotC has not attracted enough new players to make up for those who quit 4E.

There's a lot of blame to spread around for this fact but regardless the sales figures do not lie.

I'm sure WotC has been watching this worrying trend of less and less sales, while at the same time watching Paizo sky rocket up the ladder for well over a year now.

This is why Essentials was released - WotC needed a game changer and that's really what Essentials is. By going back to fluff oriented material, by going back to a simpler class design, by going back on the core 4E values, WotC hopes to siphon off enough Pathfinder players and enough new players to stave off Paizo.


The reason WotC is being so hush hush about the future is they want to see how well Essentials does. If it performs stupendously, you better believe that Essentials is the way forward, if it performs under expectations it will probably be minimized. We just have to wait and see.

#71

gold_piece

Oct 27, 2010 12:39:32

I think the basic problem is that WotC has lost a significant portion of the market share to Paizo. WotC thought the design of 4E would be so intuitive that the old players would forgive it's untraditional nature and embrace it whole hog. At the Same time, WotC wanted to draw in a whole new generation of gamers that would sustain the hobby for years to come.

What ended up happening was that a large percentage of the player base was alienated by the non-traditional nature of 4E and left. 4E has been really good at attracting new players but last month's sales report shown that WotC has not attracted enough new players to make up for those who quit 4E.

There's a lot of blame to spread around for this fact but regardless the sales figures do not lie.

I'm sure WotC has been watching this worrying trend of less and less sales, while at the same time watching Paizo sky rocket up the ladder for well over a year now.

This is why Essentials was released - WotC needed a game changer and that's really what Essentials is. By going back to fluff oriented material, by going back to a simpler class design, by going back on the core 4E values, WotC hopes to siphon off enough Pathfinder players and enough new players to stave off Paizo.


The reason WotC is being so hush hush about the future is they want to see how well Essentials does. If it performs stupendously, you better believe that Essentials is the way forward, if it performs under expectations it will probably be minimized. We just have to wait and see.




Excellent post.  Thank you.
#72

thax

Oct 27, 2010 18:30:19 		I think the allure of Pathfinder isn't the System is uses, but the setting. I would recomend more support for the FR/Ebberon/Dark Sun settings as well as the Essentials realese. Neverwinter is a good start, and they seemed to like my suggestion for a Sharn book for Ebberon perhaps for 2012, but I think more support in Dragon (and a couple of Dungeon's) coupled with some other books that could be done would help in this regard.
#73

ah_stormbringer

Oct 27, 2010 20:27:53 		Than I think you are partly right about pathfinders additional support for there setting but I know alot of players that use it just for the rules. Alot of 3.x players do not like the 4th-essentails rules and they paly it as it is the closest thing they can get to 3.x. They lost alot of players with the switch to 4.0 and have not recovered from that and if essentails fails it will be swept under the rug without any fanfare form WOTC.
#74

thax

Oct 27, 2010 20:43:16 		While I like the fact that the Sorcerer is a full class, you still have the Wizard doing the cast and forgetful, the Druid still overall ubar charged, and the overall power creep that still exists, it is still a system that had a reason for the edition change. When players go to Pathfinder, not only do they see the old familar system with some 4th edition influence, but a kick ass setting that is well written and has fantastic art.

#75

Elemental_Elf

Oct 27, 2010 22:14:32

3.5/PF is as complex and broken as the group allows it to be. In the group I play with, for example, Melee characters dominate the scene with the Warblade and the Swordsage topping the damage charts, while the Druid focuses on healing and AOEs to back them up. That is not a common occurrence in the realm of Dungeons & Theory the internet traffics in but 5 will get you 10 that is much more akin to the way the silent majority of 3.x groups play.

At any rate, Pathfinder's success can be attributed to many things, principally a great company that loves and supports its properties with solid adventures, play-tested mechanics and a really cool campaign setting. 4E on the other hand promised us the world and gave us a very untraditional fluff-light D&D game, a character generator, a piece of a setting in the DMG, lack of support for real settings, book bloat and, above all else, a closed-source game that does not give third parties the kind of freedom they enjoyed during the 3.x OGL.

Don't get me wrong I love 4E but anyone can see the blame for why D&D is not doing so well right now lies squarely with the leadership at WotC. The sudden change in design philosophy caused by Essentials is only going to fracture the base even more than 4E had. One can only hope that Essentials is swept under the rug or becomes an enormous success quickly, so as to re-unite the 4E player base.

#76

Thomson

Oct 28, 2010 2:53:47
 One can only hope that Essentials is swept under the rug or becomes an enormous success quickly, so as to re-unite the 4E player base.



I recieved the DM Toolkit yesterday. As all essentials products I got (with the exception of the dreaded Red Box) it is a top notch product.

If people wouldn't have such strong opinions (which I can understand since the previews of the essential classes where desastrous) and just give it a try I am pretty sure most of them would be surprised.

#77

Neptune0923

Oct 28, 2010 14:01:53

If people wouldn't have such strong opinions (which I can understand since the previews of the essential classes where desastrous) and just give it a try I am pretty sure most of them would be surprised.


I've given it a try. I play Essentials every Wednesday.

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?
#78

mellored

Oct 28, 2010 14:32:56
I've given it a try. I play Essentials every Wednesday.

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?

It's the same system.  You can have the Knight and a regular Sword & Board fighter together in the same game.

So play whatever character you like.
#79

The_Crimson_Dawn

Oct 28, 2010 15:10:29 		They work fine together it is more a point of what kind of character do you want to play.. I love characters that use a lot of passive abilities so essential style martial classes work for me.  Others like activated powers so they like the classic fighter.
#80

MalakLightfoot

Oct 28, 2010 16:16:43

The problem is that there are 2 systems now, not 1.  Which should we play?



Play 4E.

Whether you do that with an Essentials build, or Powers and Feats from Essentials with characters that came before is up to you. You can even ignore anything in Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms if you want to, and you will still be playing 4E.

I guess what I am saying is, why do you think there are two systems, when there is only one?