A New D&D Experience: Gamma World Seminar
The final seminar of the day announced the new and upcoming Gamma World Role-Playing Game, and this panel was headed by Senior Designer Rich Baker, Lead Designer Bruce Cordell, and Senior Art Director John Schindehette, with support from Designer Greg Bilsland and Editor Jennifer Clarke Wilkes who play Gamma World and had input about the new game from their own campaigns.
From the very start, it was apparent that the new edition of Gamma World, the 7th incarnation of the game, would be a bit more tongue-in-cheek than previous editions. Rich Baker described how in each edition the story of the apocalypse had to be re-invented, and this time, in the year 2012, the Hadron Super-collider in Switzerland created “The Big Mistake”, causing all realities to exist simultaneously for a brief moment, unleashing a nuclear holocaust in over 80% of the dimensions – except for a few where the French simply nuked a small town in Wisconsin. But regardless of how it happened, the world of Terra Gamma is filled with bizarre and terrible dangers, ranging from mutated chickens to radioactive beasts to killer-death bots, and only the Player’s Mutant Heroic Character can face these challenges – most of the time.
The “core” Gamma World product is the D&D 4E Gamma World Role-Playing Game, which is due out in October. As suggested by the title, Gamma World will use the 4E “chassis” for Characters and will technically be completely compatible with D&D 4E. It should be noted that the Designers admitted that Gamma World Characters have a higher damage output, but less healing abilities than a standard D&D adventuring party, but creatures from the Monster Manuals could be re-skinned as mutants – and vice versa. Gamma World will be a boxed set, and will contain a 160 page rulebook for creating Characters and running the world, two poster maps, monster and player token sheets, Character forms, and 40 Alpha Mutation and Omega Tech cards. These cards form a unique and new game mechanic to the Gamma World setting, and booster packs will be available to add additional flavor to the game.
The entire panel agreed that one of the most enjoyable aspects of the new Gamma World RPG is Character creation, which is very random, and can be accomplished very quickly. In fact, they recommend that it is done at the gaming table, because it is good for a lot of laughs to see what sort of mutant hero each Player ends up creating. Each mutant hero will be designed from two themes – and the bizarre example of the yeti-cockroach kept popping up throughout the seminar – and this defines the type of powers and abilities they can use. Not to mention, it also defines how strange and bizarre each mutant hero will look!
In addition to the standard power “chassis” that all 4E Characters have, the Gamma World Characters have two additional mechanics – Alpha Mutations and Salvage Slots. Alpha Mutations are encounter powers which are drawn from a deck created by the Player, and usually revolve around one or both of the Characters particular themes. At random times during play, as designated by the rules (such as rolling a natural 1 in combat), the current Alpha Mutation is discarded, and a new Alpha Mutation drawn from the deck to be used as a new encounter power. Similarly, Characters will also have an Omega Tech cards, representing high tech devices which can be used by the mutant hero until they burn out. But some Omega Tech can be used at a lower power level if they are “salvaged”, which uses a Character’s Salvage Slot, allowing the card to be retained indefinitely, albeit at a lower power level. This use of cards is aimed at adding a random element to the game to make it fun and a bit zany. For instance, Greg Bilsland described a game he was DMing, in which Trevor Kidd drew a new Alpha Mutation which gave him the power to EXPLODE – literally blow-up on his enemies – and he heroically used it to great effect. But he also had to re-roll a new Character!
Character death is apparently not a big deal in the Gamma World RPG, and in fact, seems to add a bit to the humor and light-hearted nature of the game. The Designers stressed that the ease of Character creation made losing a Character just part of the fun. And there are only 10 levels of advancement in Gamma World, so the play experience will be a bit shorter than standard D&D campaigns.
But not all the seminar attendees were happy with the “light-hearted” elements in the new Gamma World RPG, and one gamer voiced his dissatisfaction quite vocally. However, the Designers took the flaring of “nerd-rage” in stride, and both Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell admitted that they were not pleased when they were told by their boss at the start of the Gamma World RPG project that he expected a “light-hearted”, “fun”, and “tongue-in-cheek” game. But having designed the game, they were both quite proud of their achievement, and the other WotC staffers agreed that this new version of Gamma World was a tremendously fun gaming experience. In fact, John Schindehette pointed out that simply because the game was written with a certain humorous style, it did not force Game Masters to run their Gamma World Campaigns that way. The material is taken quite seriously, he went on to say, and he enjoyed playing the game himself.
The Alpha Mutation and Omega Tech Decks were also received with mixed reviews, with some gamers wondering why they should have to buy more cards just to play a game. But the Designers were quick to point out that the booster packs were optional, and simply added more cards to the sizable deck that already existed in the “core” box. It was also noted that the booster packs were numbered so that if a Player were to buy one of each, he would accumulate one of each of the “common” cards available for the game. Of course, each booster contains a random rare, and two random uncommon cards, so collectors wanting a complete set might have to do some trading or buy a lot of boosters to finish their collections.
By the way, the game provides rule for Players and Game Masters to create their decks, and there are limitations to how many of a particular type of card can be placed in a given deck.
Obviously, there will be a few rules changes from standard D&D 4E, specifically with regards to skills, but overall the Gamma World RPG will be easily playable to anyone already familiar with D&D 4E. Given the rest of the D&D 4E product line, it seems that they were due to come out with a game that was less serious and grim, and provide an option for fast Character creation and play for those gamers without a lot of free time.
But, seriously, booster packs? I can understand the fans' reactions. With an RPG, you want a complete game, all the options there to be evaluated and understood before you run it or even start cooking up an adventure. As a GM, you need that to decide what you're going to use. I don't want some ill-concieved mutation or artifact screwing up my game because it was on a 'rare' card I've never seen. What a truely terrible idea. And 'optional' is really meaningless. It's an RPG, as a GM, I can change the rules - /everything/ is always optional. Obviously, it's one option I won't use, and will outright ban from my table when I run, just like any cards in the boxed set I find broken, problematic, or otherwise undesireable.
If the cards in the boxed set seem too limitted or inadequate, well, it's just another bad edition of Gamma World. It's not like the 3rd, 5th or 6th editions of the game were anything short of disasters. We can always hold out hope that the next will be better. 2nd and 4th were quite good, and 1st is always fun for the nostalgia. I can always go back to one of those.
Could Gamma World be a "Beta playtesting-like" of a future new d20 Modern?
I won't be touching it with a 10 foot pole. The CCG element is too strong in this product for me to consider purchasing it.
I know you're very against the CCG element of this, Dave. I'm not entirely sure how strong it will be. I've noted previously, that I don't think the competetive nature of the game (and its compatability) warrant enough of a competative market that will drive up the price.
In competative games, you can not use proxies (ie, the RAW of a card or element of the game written out on paper). With D&D, I feel a lot of the RAW for the CCG elements will be readily available on these forums. Heck, just ysterday I got the RAW for a Level 7 Battlemind Discipline from these forums. That's just the nature of D&D. And honestly, unless you go to play Gamma World at huge competetive cons (like Gen Con) I doubt you'll be missing material.
Heck, some of the guys I play D&D with don't have the RAW of every power in their character sheets or cards. They just go with what's mostly accurate and unless it's something entirely broken, the DM and players just go with the flow. D&D and GW are about having fun, not following every single rule and word to the letter and if you miss out on some superduper rare card, I don't think it will impact the fun of Gamma World (unless you play on a super competetive level).
I won't be touching it with a 10 foot pole. The CCG element is too strong in this product for me to consider purchasing it.
I know you're very against the CCG element of this, Dave. I'm not entirely sure how strong it will be.
The information present in this thread indicates that it is a far stronger element than what I am willing to deal with.
I've noted previously, that I don't think the competetive nature of the game (and its compatability) warrant enough of a competative market that will drive up the price.
In competative games, you can not use proxies (ie, the RAW of a card or element of the game written out on paper). With D&D, I feel a lot of the RAW for the CCG elements will be readily available on these forums. Heck, just ysterday I got the RAW for a Level 7 Battlemind Discipline from these forums. That's just the nature of D&D. And honestly, unless you go to play Gamma World at huge competetive cons (like Gen Con) I doubt you'll be missing material.
Heck, some of the guys I play D&D with don't have the RAW of every power in their character sheets or cards. They just go with what's mostly accurate and unless it's something entirely broken, the DM and players just go with the flow. D&D and GW are about having fun, not following every single rule and word to the letter and if you miss out on some superduper rare card, I don't think it will impact the fun of Gamma World (unless you play on a super competetive level).
It is nice that that is your opinion. If that is your opinion you should buy the product and enjoy it. I don't share your opinion. I won't be purchasing a single Gamma World product as a result. Nor will I purchase any other RPG product that WotC releases that has this strong of a CCG element to it. Releasing key aspects of the RPG, such as character powers and items, via a randomized collectible booster pack distribution model, complete with a rarity system, AND players each building their own decks, is a great way to convince me that a product is not for me. This from a guy that owns every single 4e book published to date except for the 2 Draconomicons, the Demonomicon, the Adventurers Vault 2, and the two race books (including all the books released this month, as I have all of those on preorder), and who would have purchased all of the Gamma World products if key rules were not distributed via a CCG model of distribution.
Thats what i suggest to anyone who wants to support the setting but doesn't like the collectable card aspect; buy the boxed sets but don't pay for the part you don't like and don't wish to support. Show that there is demand for the setting but not the boosters.
Optional material is optional.
No, sorry, not quite true. I have been over this before. My message to WotC is as follows:
Yes, I realize you are not trying to market the booster packs of Gamma World as mandatory. Someone is bound to reply to this post by saying, "you can play with just the boxed set; you only need to buy new booster packs if you want to expand your collection." While technically true, that claim is disingenuous. All of us like to expand our RPG collections. If we didn't, this wouldn't be a profitable industry. Buying a game with the knowledge that you won't be able to expand your collection (because you are not willing to engage in a CCG booster pack buying experience) while other players will (because they will be willing to engage in a CCG booster pack buying experience) is exactly what turns me off of RPGs that include CCG elements in them.
And that is exactly the reality of the situation. If you are not willing to buy boosters, but your buddy is, your buddy will have that many more options in this game. His character will be that much more powerful, because he was willing to take the time and money to build a better deck. Since I am not ok with that situation, or the experience of buying CCG boosters, that means that I will not purchase Gamma World at all.
People like you (efutch), or WotC itself, can try and market this CCG element in any way it wants. It is not going to work on people like me. I won't be convinced. A CCG element can find its way into my RPG in one of two ways, without turning me off buying the product that is: 1) the element must be totally self contained, modular, and optional. That is to say, no starter decks, no rules for the CCG element in the core product, no reference to the CCG element, nothing. Like the fortune cards being created for D&D, the element should only exist if you choose to purchase the element; 2) the element must be a player aid, not a method of distributing the game's rules. For example, if we could buy a text book of all the mutations, and buy packs of randomized mutations in order to make the GMs life easier (by pre-randomizing the mutations with a card based set of booster packs), I would purchase Gamma World.
As it stands, Gamma World will not see a single cent of my coinage. If WotC wants to know why this is why. And no matter what anyone writes, no matter what WotC claims, it doesn't matter. Distributing splat that details extra player encounter powers, and item loot, in randomized and collectable booster packs with a rarity system, has ensured that I will never touch this product with a 10 foot pole. Or any other type of pole. WotC should know that I feel this way, and that I am not alone. A lot of players are going to avoid this product as a result of their marketing decisions.
I like gamma world but i dont like CCGs, so i plan on buying the core box and the adventures but not a single booster pack.
Thats what i suggest to anyone who wants to support the setting but doesn't like the collectable card aspect; buy the boxed sets but don't pay for the part you don't like and don't wish to support. Show that there is demand for the setting but not the boosters.
Only problem with that decision is that if you buy the core set, and not the booster packs, and enough other people also buy the core set, and the booster packs, WotC will get the clear message that booster packs are profitable and should be added to the game. In order to make the booster packs a poor business choice (which is the only thing that will actually sway WotC) you must show WotC that adding such a CCG element to a game will actually reduce the sales of non-randomized content as well....
I suggest that anyone who really hates CCG elements in their game a) speak up, polity, and give WotC your customer feedback, and b) don't buy any aspect of a product that includes such an major CCG element. Boycott Gamma World completely, and let them know why you are doing so.
Only problem with that decision is that if you buy the core set, and not the booster packs, and enough other people also buy the core set, and the booster packs, WotC will get the clear message that booster packs are profitable and should be added to the game. In order to make the booster packs a poor business choice (which is the only thing that will actually sway WotC) you must show WotC that adding such a CCG element to a game will actually reduce the sales of non-randomized content as well....
And the problem with that is if you boycott the core box because you don't like CCG, the exact same amount of people are still buying the boosters. When you boycott the boxes, WotC gets clear data that when they put out a setting, the ratio of boosters sold per core set of rules is high. They make less money over all, but that may very well be attributed to the Gamma World setting not being popular or that the game is tongue-in-cheek or the game only goes to level 10 or a slew of other factors that effect sales. After all, with your paradigm people aren't even buying the portion of the game that isn't randomized or collectible and ultimately the only verifiable data that your boycott would produce would be that for every 1 core box sold, maybe 10 boosters are sold, as opposed to my strategy where it could be 5 core boxes are sold for every 10 booster packs.
I suggest that anyone who really hates CCG elements in their game a) speak up, polity, and give WotC your customer feedback, and b) don't buy any aspect of a product that includes such an major CCG element. Boycott Gamma World completely, and let them know why you are doing so.
I totally agree that everyone should speak up against adding CCG elements to RPGs. I don't think boycotting Gamma World whole cloth is the way to do it because the only solid data it gives them other than the final profit, which can be effected by numerous factors, is that the booster to boxed set ratio is really, really good.
Only problem with that decision is that if you buy the core set, and not the booster packs, and enough other people also buy the core set, and the booster packs, WotC will get the clear message that booster packs are profitable and should be added to the game. In order to make the booster packs a poor business choice (which is the only thing that will actually sway WotC) you must show WotC that adding such a CCG element to a game will actually reduce the sales of non-randomized content as well....
And the problem with that is if you boycott the core box because you don't like CCG, the exact same amount of people are still buying the boosters. When you boycott the boxes, WotC gets clear data that when they put out a setting, the ratio of boosters sold per core set of rules is high. They make less money over all, but that may very well be attributed to the Gamma World setting not being popular or that the game is tongue-in-cheek or the game only goes to level 10 or a slew of other factors that effect sales. After all, with your paradigm people aren't even buying the portion of the game that isn't randomized or collectible and ultimately the only verifiable data that your boycott would produce would be that for every 1 core box sold, maybe 10 boosters are sold, as opposed to my strategy where it could be 5 core boxes are sold for every 10 booster packs.
Wrong. The ratio of booster sold to core boxes sold might become higher. However, because they are selling fewer core boxes, the loss of money on their part becomes higher as well. Their sales of boosters have to make up for lost boxes sold, or the line is not profitable. This is all that really matters. Ratios don't matter. Bottom lines do. If the ratio of boosters to core boxes sold is higher, but the overall income generated by the product line is lower, they will take notice. And WotC is not a bunch of idiots. They are a pretty smart company. If they see that the product line is selling like crap, and they see forums full of people saying, "I am not buying this product because of the CCG element in this product," they will put 2 and 2 together.
I suggest that anyone who really hates CCG elements in their game a) speak up, polity, and give WotC your customer feedback, and b) don't buy any aspect of a product that includes such an major CCG element. Boycott Gamma World completely, and let them know why you are doing so.
I totally agree that everyone should speak up against adding CCG elements to RPGs. I don't think boycotting Gamma World whole cloth is the way to do it because the only solid data it gives them other than the final profit, which can be effected by numerous factors, is that the booster to boxed set ratio is really, really good.
As I noted, that is sort of irrelevant. If the ratio of boosters to boxes sold is not great, but the boosters still generated an increase in overall income, the boosters will be considered a success. For the boosters to be considered a failure they have to result in a decrease in overall income. Hence the best thing you can do is let WotC know how you feel, and then boycott the product line entirely.
Optional material is optional.
As is core material. As is so often pointed out, WotC doesn't have the budget to send jackbooted thugs to your house to force you to play a certain way.
Though, if they ever wanted to, they could just recruit from the forums. ;)
The ratio of booster sold to core boxes sold might become higher. However, because they are selling fewer core boxes, the loss of money on their part becomes higher as well. Their sales of boosters have to make up for lost boxes sold, or the line is not profitable. This is all that really matters. Ratios don't matter. Bottom lines do.
Sending the message that a product line is not profitable says "don't do that product line again." I happen to like Gamma World, and don't want to see the line trashed for good.
If they see the line fail as a whole, they might think, "well, people stayed away because they hated booster packs." Or they might think "those who bought the game also bought booster packs, so acceptance of booster packs in an RPG is high, Gamma World is just a crap setting only a few die-hards want to play, let's try collectible cards in other RPGs!" Or, they might think "the game was too silly this time around, next time we should do the grim post-apocalypse thing." Or, they might think "Gamma World's time has just past, give the propperty a decent burial."
OTOH, if they sell lots of boxed sets, and no booster packs, they'll realized "Wow, Gamma World is still popular enough, but RPGers really don't much like booster packs." If they then bundle complete sets of cards, and those sell, that conclusion would be confirmed.
So, yeah, I think the ratio should matter. I'm not sure what base line they have to go on as far as ratios are concerned. Would they expect it to match starter/booster pack sales of MtG? I wouldn't think so. They might be happy to sell /any/ booster packs, figuring, if the game sells, and the packs only sell a little, they're still revenue (of course, anything you publish needs to meet a minimum threshold to cover sunk costs, so we can hope the booster packs /don't/).
If you want to get the message out that you hate booster packs, write a letter (and whine on-line and at game demos - it worked for the 4e haters, they're getting Essentials) - because the 'dollar vote' will be too ambiguous for them to read, whether you just go out and buy the game, or boycott the whole line.
The ratio of booster sold to core boxes sold might become higher. However, because they are selling fewer core boxes, the loss of money on their part becomes higher as well. Their sales of boosters have to make up for lost boxes sold, or the line is not profitable. This is all that really matters. Ratios don't matter. Bottom lines do.
Sending the message that a product line is not profitable says "don't do that product line again." I happen to like Gamma World, and don't want to see the line trashed for good.
This is only true if you assume that WotC is a bunch of total idiots who don't do any market research or pay attention to consumer feedback. Otherwise they are going to see the people saying, "I love Gamma World, but will not purchase this version due to the CCG element that has been introduced to it." I happen to believe that WotC knows what it is doing, and is not a bunch of total idiots.
If they see the line fail as a whole, they might think, "well, people stayed away because they hated booster packs." Or they might think "those who bought the game also bought booster packs, so acceptance of booster packs in an RPG is high, Gamma World is just a crap setting only a few die-hards want to play, let's try collectible cards in other RPGs!" Or, they might think "the game was too silly this time around, next time we should do the grim post-apocalypse thing." Or, they might think "Gamma World's time has just past, give the propperty a decent burial."
And again, only if you think WotC is a bunch of total idiots. Otherwise they will see the consumer feedback they are receiving, and form an opinion based on that. If they are receiving consumer feedback that says "I would have bought the game, but didn't because of the CCG element," the line sells very poorly as a whole, but those buying the line at all also buy the boosters, it becomes clear that only people willing to deal with a CCG element will buy the line, and had the line not included such a CCG element a lot more people would have been buying it. I have faith that WotC can put 2 and 2 together. I don't think they are a bunch of idiots.
OTOH, if they sell lots of boxed sets, and no booster packs, they'll realized "Wow, Gamma World is still popular enough, but RPGers really don't much like booster packs." If they then bundle complete sets of cards, and those sell, that conclusion would be confirmed.
Which is only true if that happens. If, on the other hand, the booster packs sell, maybe not as well as they would hope (no MtG level of success), but enough to make the product line more profitable, and no sales are lost due to the inclusion in the CCG element (meaning that the core "books," or their boxed set analog, sells as well as it would have had no element been included), the message is that adding a CCG element to the game increases the profits of the game, even if most of the games players don't like that CCG element. Since I don't want to gamble on how well the booster packs will do on their own, the smarter choice is to boycott completely.
So, yeah, I think the ratio should matter. I'm not sure what base line they have to go on as far as ratios are concerned. Would they expect it to match starter/booster pack sales of MtG? I wouldn't think so. They might be happy to sell /any/ booster packs, figuring, if the game sells, and the packs only sell a little, they're still revenue (of course, anything you publish needs to meet a minimum threshold to cover sunk costs, so we can hope the booster packs /don't/).
Except, as I have pointed out, they really don't. As you noted, if the packs add any revenue, the CCG element might be here to stay. But the CCG element ruins my fun. Which means that I want to hurt that revenue as much as possible. Which means that I won't be buying the core product either (and I suggest that anyone who really hates CCG elements in their RPGs follow suit).
If you want to get the message out that you hate booster packs, write a letter (and whine on-line and at game demos - it worked for the 4e haters, they're getting Essentials) - because the 'dollar vote' will be too ambiguous for them to read, whether you just go out and buy the game, or boycott the whole line.
I am doing all of that (though I don't call it whining, I call it consumer feedback), and boycotting. The dollar vote is the most important vote. The rest just puts that vote in context.
Experiences with past editions?
Influences from movies, books etc. that would make a fun GW adventure?
Are you going to run a GW campaign or use it for a fun side-game?
Depending on the reviews of the game, I want to run it as a fun-side game. My group allready plays D&D pretty zany and backstabby, so Gamma World might be a perfect fit for them.
I am planning on running it as a side game too. Something different to play when maybe one or two members from my group are out of town or we find ourselves with an extra day to game.
I am thinking about designing an adventure loosely based on Thundarr the Barbarian, Wizards or Escape from New York. There are so many movies and books to get ideas from, it is hard to decide.
I wish Thundarr the Barbarian (and Goltar) were released on DVD. You could probably take plot and story ideas from He-man as well. Savage After World has a lot of Thundarr material for Mutant Future.
There is a gamma world group I started if you want to discuss adventure ideas.
I wish Thundarr the Barbarian (and Goltar) were released on DVD. You could probably take plot and story ideas from He-man as well.
I recently found a website with all the episodes of Thundarr on it, although there are commercials. Thundarr is a great source for Gamma World ideas. What is Goltar?
I recently found a website with all the episodes of Thundarr on it, although there are commercials. Thundarr is a great source for Gamma World ideas. What is Goltar?
Galtar and the Golden Lance
Unfortunately I don't remember much about the show anymore. It felt similar to Thundarr when I saw it.
If you dislike CCG elements, buy the box and ignore the boosters. Ignoring the product altogether would fundamentally make it so that the ratio of buyers who are interested in boosters gets higher.
The only possible outcome would be that if the GW is a flop, they will see the booster format works (but the setting doesn't sell); GW is dropped or changed, the booster format is exported to more profitable products. If GW is a success, they will see the booster strategy as a success and expand from that.
It has nothing to do with being idiots; the marketing department can't accept the risk of guessing that a large number of people are so crazy that they will skip a product they want in order to send a message they could send better by just ignoring the product they don't want.
To make a comparison, it's like if you boycotted a car because it also comes in pink. Your assumption that the producer should instantly assume the problem is the color pink and not the car is quite brave.
I have to agree with those who disagree with Dave's idea of a boycott.
If you dislike CCG elements, buy the box and ignore the boosters. Ignoring the product altogether would fundamentally make it so that the ratio of buyers who are interested in boosters gets higher.
No. I will continue to boycott. Sorry, I don't care if you think it would be better to support the product anyway. I don't plan to support a product that contains a CCG element in it in any shape or form. To anyone who actually hates CCG elements in their games, I suggest you actually read the argument as to why a boycott would be the best decision for you, and then make a decision for yourself.
The only possible outcome would be that if the GW is a flop, they will see the booster format works (but the setting doesn't sell); GW is dropped or changed, the booster format is exported to more profitable products. If GW is a success, they will see the booster strategy as a success and expand from that.
That is not the only possible outcome, unless you assume that WotC is a bunch of illiterate idiots. Otherwise, WotC can read the fan based response, they can read posts such as the one I have made, they can search forums full of people saying much the same thing, they can read the posts by people like MechaPilot who respond to my stance by saying that they too will be boycotting the product, and they can put two and two together; they will say, "huh, lots of people are complaining about CCG elements in Gamma World. Some are saying they are boycotting the line outright. Gamma World isn't selling well. There is a real possibility that this CCG idea, while it seemed like a good idea at first, might actually hurt an RPG's sales. We should probably avoid that risk." WotC are not inept, they are literate, and they are not idiots. They can take consumer feedback, sales numbers, and put two and two together.
On the other hand, if people listen to you (or others making the same claim as you) they seriously risk having CCG elements included in more and more future products by WotC. The cards don't need to sell amazingly well to create a profit. The cards don't need to sell like MtG for WotC to want to adopt them into games such as D&D. All the cards have to do is sell well enough that they cover their production cost, and then create some margin of profit on top of that. In order to hinder the cards success consumers must find ways to cut profits away from the line despite the cards potential to produce profit. The only way to do that is to avoid purchasing any aspect of the line because of the cards. Otherwise, if the boxed sets sell well, even if most people who buy the boxed set avoid buying the cards because they don't like CCG elements, if enough people buy the cards for the cards to turn a small extra profit the message will be that cards are a good investment, and they should be added to more and more games. If you don't want to send WotC that message consider your actions before you choose to purchase this product.
It has nothing to do with being idiots; the marketing department can't accept the risk of guessing that a large number of people are so crazy that they will skip a product they want in order to send a message they could send better by just ignoring the product they don't want.
It has everything to do with people being idiots. A marketing department that is not full of idiots, that sees a lot of consumer feedback saying, "we don't like CCG elements in our RPGs, and are not buying this product as a result," and who then sees poor sales for a particular product line, will put two and two together. And people are not crazy for choosing to boycott Gamma World due to its CCG element. If the CCG element is a major turn off, than your love for a setting is irrelevant. The CCG element still ruins the game. What you are saying is akin to telling someone that they are crazy for not eating soup with a little piece of fecal matter in it. After all, they could just eat around the fecal matter...
To make a comparison, it's like if you boycotted a car because it also comes in pink. Your assumption that the producer should instantly assume the problem is the color pink and not the car is quite brave.
That is a very poor comparison. The option to have your car come in pink does not force you to buy your car in pink. Your comparison is far more akin to someone boycotting D&D because of fortune cards, despite the fact that fortune cards are a completely modular, self contained, and optional D&D play aid that doesn't have to be included in your game, nor does it have to be purchased for you to own a complete set of the game's core rules. In terms of Gamma World, and its distribution model, a far better analogy would be people boycotting a car because the designers decided to release the car in only one color, pink. And even better analogy than that would be as follows: the designers decided to release a car that typically has 4 speeds to it, but with certain gears missing. If you want to be able to use speed 3 or 4 you must buy random packs of parts. Problem is, only one out of 10 packs has the missing gears you need for your car to work the way you want it to. In either case, you better believe that people would boycott that product line under either of the two scenario's I proposed, and their choice to do so would not be crazy.
To people out there reading this, who actually do hate CCG elements in their RPG games, I urge you to think about your choice a little before making it. Think about what you really want out of a game, and whether buying this product is worth it if it might mean more CCG elements making their way into future games released by WotC. Furthermore, I urge you to consider who it is that is telling you to buy the game anyway. How many of the people saying, "just buy the game, and don't purchase booster packs," also hate CCG elements in their games? Do they really have your best interests at heart?
Anybody want to discuss Gamma World who is going to play it?
Experiences with past editions?
Influences from movies, books etc. that would make a fun GW adventure?
Are you going to run a GW campaign or use it for a fun side-game?
I hope to play it. I don't care about the boosters as long as they are a low-key element (can use a few if you want but don't need the whole set... which is how they've said it will be).
I played Gamma World 2e back in the day. It was cool. I had this mutant panther dude who found a Thundercats action figure and used it as a totem (it was still on the card and therefore would be worth a fortune to collectors... if there were any and if there was money). His greatest coup was finding a working laser pistol that made him a true force to be reckoned with!
His greatest blunder was wrapped up with treasure. He helped loot an ancient bunker. It contained many shiny metallic cylinders with pull pins! Being a mutant animal, his ability to figure out artifacts really sucked. So the GM allowed me to labor in my ignorant belief that I was carrying an entire sack full of grenades. This belief was sadly 'exploded' when I attempted to slay a marauding robot with what turned out to be a can of vegetable soup. Boy was I surprised. Fortunately I was throwing from relative cover so I didn't end up getting my panther @ss shot off.
That cloud did have a silver lining, though - I eventually realized that since the soup was unspoiled, I had a treasure of portable rations in flavors that essentially no longer existed. Rather than parlay them into the fortune that they were worth I devoured them liberally. What do you expect from a mutant panther dude? Prudence?
This is a case where consumers have the full power to give complete input to WotC on what they like and what they didn't.
I don't know how versed you are in economy and marketing (it's a big part of my job, as I work in advertisement), but the single best possible anti-CCG element signal you can give is buying the set and avoiding the boosters.
Heck, you want to boycott CCG element? Buy 10 boxed sets and no boosters. Buy 20,000 boxed sets and no boosters and you will kill the booster pack policy.
Your statement that a marketing department "not made of idiots" will automatically be able to assume that Gamma World bombed because of the CCG element is nonsense. Multiple elements could lead to that outcome - poor advertisement, poor brand power, market competition, timing, packaging, distribution. The last thing you can think about is a boycott. Only informed customers even consider boycotts, and only a minority of them actually perform boycotts.
Be realistical: how many people who WANT a product will boycott it to send a nebulous message they can send better by not buying the product the do NOT want?
If you buy the box and not the boosters, the boosters bomb and the marketing message is: the attach rate of the boosters is low, consumers aren't interested in them.
If you skip Gamma World altogether, the marketing message is: Gamma World doesn't function as a product. Why? It's up in the air. Maybe it's boosters? Well, let's try them with a more popular brand.
If you don't want CCG elements in your PnP RPGs (I don't, for example), I "urge" you to ignore Dave's advice, because it's marketing suicide. If you REALLY want to make a sacrifice to boycott CCG elements, buy multiple core boxes and no boosters. Kill the booster attach rate and you will send an inequivocable, direct signal that boosters don't sell.
Dave, I'm sorry but what you're saying is complete nonsense.
This is a case where consumers have the full power to give complete input to WotC on what they like and what they didn't.
I don't know how versed you are in economy and marketing (it's a big part of my job, as I work in advertisement), but the single best possible anti-CCG element signal you can give is buying the set and avoiding the boosters.
Heck, you want to boycott CCG element? Buy 10 boxed sets and no boosters. Buy 20,000 boxed sets and no boosters and you will kill the booster pack policy.
Your statement that a marketing department "not made of idiots" will automatically be able to assume that Gamma World bombed because of the CCG element is nonsense. Multiple elements could lead to that outcome - poor advertisement, poor brand power, market competition, timing, packaging, distribution. The last thing you can think about is a boycott. Only informed customers even consider boycotts, and only a minority of them actually perform boycotts.
Be realistical: how many people who WANT a product will boycott it to send a nebulous message they can send better by not buying the product the do NOT want?
If you buy the box and not the boosters, the boosters bomb and the marketing message is: the attach rate of the boosters is low, consumers aren't interested in them.
If you skip Gamma World altogether, the marketing message is: Gamma World doesn't function as a product. Why? It's up in the air. Maybe it's boosters? Well, let's try them with a more popular brand.
If you don't want CCG elements in your PnP RPGs (I don't, for example), I "urge" you to ignore Dave's advice, because it's marketing suicide. If you REALLY want to make a sacrifice to boycott CCG elements, buy multiple core boxes and no boosters. Kill the booster attach rate and you will send an inequivocable, direct signal that boosters don't sell.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree. I think that consumer feedback in combination with a drop in the the products total profit is more than enough for a company to figure out what is the problem. Really, all that can be said has, so I leave it to others to read the various arguments about what they should do, and choose what to do for themselves.
Some will say - "Wow! Great - a booster! Where do I buy more?"
Some will just open it, add to other cards and forget about it.
But 2.5 men who boycott the product because there are also boosters selling along them interest no one and will acomplish nothing.
(Luckily. 'Cause I like boosters idea.
) Really, thats what i plan on doing. If they give us the text for the whole set then there really isn't any reason to pay for boosters when you can just make your own.
And some will say "Gee, all of the text for the booster set is online, just the Magic Cards. This isn't a competative game, so why do i need to buy boosters? I'll just write of the entire set on index cards and use them to the exact same effect as 100$ worth of random boosters!"
Really, thats what i plan on doing. If they give us the text for the whole set then there really isn't any reason to pay for boosters when you can just make your own.
And if they don't make the information available online?
Remember that GW is a "stand-alone" product. There is no reason to assume that you'll be able to get the information from the Character Builder. And since there is no tournament format where you actually have to possess authentic copies of the cards; WotC would be cutting their own purse-strings by putting that information online.
Guys your little boycott thingy goes nowhere. Peeps will see a box with Gamma World on it and buy it if it appeals to them. Opening it up they'll see a booster included.
Some will say - "Wow! Great - a booster! Where do I buy more?"
Some will just open it, add to other cards and forget about it.
But 2.5 men who boycott the product because there are also boosters selling along them interest no one and will acomplish nothing.
(Luckily. 'Cause I like boosters idea.
If that "2.5 men" turn into 250 men, 2,500 men, 25,000 men, it might do something. You have no idea how many people are not going to buy the product because of these boosters. Considering the fact that there are many forums where people discuss D&D, and people are complaining about these boosters on many of them, I think you will find that your 2.5 number is very off...
And if they don't make the information available online?
I'm not telling anyone to do anything that may or may not be illegal but i guarantee you 100% that even if WotC doesn't post all the text on their site (didn't they for the D&D minis rules?) the info will be readily available online.
And since there is no tournament format where you actually have to possess authentic copies of the cards; WotC would be cutting their own purse-strings by putting that information online.
Er...you mean like they do for every book in 4E via the compendium?
And since there is no tournament format where you actually have to possess authentic copies of the cards; WotC would be cutting their own purse-strings by putting that information online.
Er...you mean like they do for every book in 4E via the compendium?
Books are not marketed for repeated purchase by the same people and are priced accordingly.
Books are not marketed for repeated purchase by the same people and are priced accordingly.
I'm not clear on why that matters. WotC makes money by selling books and yet they put the info online, thus discouraging many customers from spending money on books.
In fact, i'd say it makes more sense to put the game info from the cards online instead of all the rules from books because having the physical product in-hand (a nice, professionally produced card) is probably more import with a collectible card format than books for an RPG where you don't even need the physical product in any way shape or form at the table to function. Basially, the cards aren't just a means of conveying rule information, but their physical presence is required as a game prop as well.
Books are not marketed for repeated purchase by the same people and are priced accordingly.
I'm not clear on why that matters. WotC makes money by selling books and yet they put the info online, thus discouraging many customers from spending money on books.
It ties in to turnover and return on investment. I don't really feel like getting into a whole economics thing. I will say however that, upon reflection, they may well put the info online; only they would sequester it within DDI. With the GW boosters giving you half as many cards as a MtG booster, while costing the same price, they recoup enough of the costs I was thinking of earlier to make the information available online; but only for those who are paying for DDI (in contrast to the Gatherer MtG card database which can be used without any subscription).
The other aspect of it that i forgot to mention is that since its desirable to own the physical product (the actual card) it may be in WotC's best interest to spoil the text of the entire set of boosters for the express purpose of teasing the customer. If a Gamma World card collector looks up card X online and sees that it has an awesome "must have" ability, he is more likely to buy a bunch of packs looking for card X than he would be if he were blind to the whole set.
Operating under the assumption that rarity = power/awesomeness (which seems likely) they may just spoil the rares. As I said before though, they could spoil them all in an area only accessable to DDI subscribers and still be ahead of the curve (unfortunately for my side of things).
Who would be so geek to make a crossover gamma wolrd-D&D? Please, why not urban arcana post-apocalyptic?
Take a little. Take a lot.
In many D&D game over the last few decades I seen and heard of D&D games with SCI-FI elements thrown in. DMs often make up their own rules for things the they want, that the rules don't cover. Better if the rules are officeal.
If travelling to alternate universes is part of the game. A SCI-FI world can be in there to.
Tech. Compatable guns for D&D. The info seems to include low tech-items (flintlocks and bolt action rifles) and well a tac-nukes.
Plenty of novels and movies have mixed Fantacy and Sci-fi. D&D should be able to handle it all.
Strand0: Thanks for the in depth update on GW!
Oh! You're Welcome.
I am doing all of that (though I don't call it whining, I call it consumer feedback), and boycotting. The dollar vote is the most important vote. The rest just puts that vote in context.
I call it whining, I'm just grumpy, I guess ..or contrary... anyway: The dollar vote /is/ the most important vote. So, to vote for Gamma World and against booster packs, buy Gamma World, and don't buy the booster packs. Simple.
If they give us the text for the whole set then there really isn't any reason to pay for boosters when you can just make your own.
That would be acceptable.
I am doing all of that (though I don't call it whining, I call it consumer feedback), and boycotting. The dollar vote is the most important vote. The rest just puts that vote in context.
I call it whining, I'm just grumpy, I guess ..or contrary... anyway: The dollar vote /is/ the most important vote. So, to vote for Gamma World and against booster packs, buy Gamma World, and don't buy the booster packs. Simple.
No, it is not that simple. As I have noted in many threads, that option very likely causes you to cast your dollar vote in the "you are willing to support a game that includes a major CCG element to it." If you buy the core box, and not the boosters, but enough other people buy the boosters for the boosters to still generate profit, WotC learns that boosters are a smart addition to a game. You are then telling WotC that players who don't like CCG models of distribution are willing to play at a disadvantage, shorthanded if you will. Thus WotC doesn't have to worry about ostracizing players by including CCG elements to the game. Thus WotC only needs to worry about whether the boosters themselves will generate enough sales to cover the cost of production and generate profit on top of that. If they can, then even if most people buying Gamma World don't buy the boosters the boosters are still a smart investment on WotCs part.
On the other hand, if WotC sees that this CCG element does ostracize players, that they won't purchase the core rules either, then the ballgame changes. Then the booster must generate enough sales to both cover the cost of their production, the production of the core rules that don't sell due to the inclusion of the CCG element, and generate profit. The chance that WotC will decide that this is not a smart decision thus increases. Of course, this means that people who don't purchase the boxed set due to the CCG element must also give feedback to WotC to let them know why they are not purchasing the boxed set, which is what I have done, and plan to keep doing.
I'm not going to double-think that based on some supposition that maybe, just maybe, not buying the box set will hurt the game just enough for them to try another marketing aproach, but not enough for them to finally give up on it.
My dollar vote is: "I am an inveterate Gamma World fan, and will buy the core GW book of every ed, no matter how supremely lame it is. But, I'll make a second purchase only if it doesn't suck."
I'm not going to double-think that based on some supposition that maybe, just maybe, not buying the box set will hurt the game just enough for them to try another marketing aproach, but not enough for them to finally give up on it.
Yup!
But, maybe I could be talked out of it do to cards, wackiness, and the economy.
But maybe not!
Who would be so geek to make a crossover gamma wolrd-D&D? Please, why not urban arcana post-apocalyptic?
Gary Gygax, he wrote rules for converting Gamma world into DND in the AD&D DMG 1e. So it has been something that has been arround for over 30+ years.
Depending on the reviews of the game, I want to run it as a fun-side game. My group allready plays D&D pretty zany and backstabby, so Gamma World might be a perfect fit for them.
except for the back stabby part that is my gaming group. gamma world is up are ally.
...
I suggest that anyone who really hates CCG elements in their game a) speak up, polity, and give WotC your customer feedback, and b) don't buy any aspect of a product that includes such an major CCG element. Boycott Gamma World completely, and let them know why you are doing so.
I am on the opposite side of the fence on this one. I don't like CCGs, never played them. But I have no problem with RPGs borrowing mechanics from them. I think developers should look into all kinds of games for inspiration in developing mechanic for RPGs, even CCGs.
I think we cancel each other out in the vote.
Keep crusading though, I can appreciate the passion.
Yea, I hate to break it to you, but that doesn't cancel out my vote. You buying it doesn't suddenly mean I have. Whatever market share I represent is still lost. Unless, you know, you originally did not plan to buy Gamma World and are now buying the game because of the CCG element. And somehow, I doubt a lot of people will be buying this game specifically because of that element. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying they are going to avoid the game because of that element...
No you enjoyed it.;) You win, I guess we don't cancel each other out. I'm still interested in Gamma World. Post Apocolyptic meyhem in a 4e core with or with out CCG element is what interests. I'm also just one of many not bothered by that element In Gamma World or any other RPG.
HAPPY CRUSADING!
1st & 2nd were very primitive.
Mutant Future is a retro-clone similar to the 1st GW.
Unless, you know, you originally did not plan to buy Gamma World and are now buying the game because of the CCG element. And somehow, I doubt a lot of people will be buying this game specifically because of that element. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying they are going to avoid the game because of that element...
And most of the ppl just don't care. They either like Gamma World or not. And they don't make such shameful fuss about small packet of cards they receive in addition to the game they receive.
Unless, you know, you originally did not plan to buy Gamma World and are now buying the game because of the CCG element. And somehow, I doubt a lot of people will be buying this game specifically because of that element. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying they are going to avoid the game because of that element...
And most of the ppl just don't care. They either like Gamma World or not. And they don't make such shameful fuss about small packet of cards they receive in addition to the game they receive.
You have no idea what "most people" feel. That won't become clear until WotC sees the sales data and the consumer feedback on their product. Additionally, even if "most people" don't care, if enough people do we will still have an impact on WotC's marketing policies. And I could care less about your very subjective, and irrelevant, value judgement on the nature of my consumer feedback. Personally, I consider your actions to be what is shameful...
And I could care less about your very subjective, and irrelevant, value judgement on the nature of my consumer feedback.
Yep. You care only about your opinion. As I told you before you are trying to destroy the product I like. You could buy a box (and at least 2 expansion boxes), skip all the boosters and play happily with the current product. And with this product I can buy the same boxed and an occasional booster pack or two. This way we both could be happy with this.
But you prefer to behave like a zealot or a capricious child - "I don't like it! Scrap it at once!"
As for your so called customer's feedback... at least 3-4 threads filled with "I hate it WotC, I gonna boycott it" could be called anything but this. Write a letter to custserv@wizards.com. That's gonna be feedback.
And you are a hypocrite. Like me, your primary interest is the defense of a product you like. You like CCG elements. Is it enough for you that these CCG elements be self-contained and optional (in terms of the system of mechanics that governs them)? Nope. You want the rules that govern them to be part of the core mechanical systems of the game. Who cares if people who have been playing this line of products for years hate that CCG element, and who cares if that totally ruins the fun of other players, that is what you want! But if someone else dares to mention that they really don't like that, and gives their own consumer feedback to WotC, well... THEY are then a zealot and capricious child. Uhu. Zealot and capricious child indeed. Looked in the mirror lately?
I am neither a zealot nor a capricious child. I am an intelligent, self aware, consumer. I know what I like. I am willing to tell a company about what I like so that I might see more of what I like in the future. I use my money and my words as a system of feedback with which I hope to influence future products. If my feedback doesn't influence the game for your best interests, I am terribly sorry, but I don't care. While I would much prefer that a common middle ground can be found (for example, the inclusion of self contained and optional--in terms of the system of mechanics that governs them--splat material released in CCG format), if a common middle ground cannot be found I care more about my interests than yours. My money, my consumer feedback, is not supposed to serve your interests; it is designed to serve my own. I am not content to be forced to use the core product, which uses core systems of mechanics that are bolstered by splat material that is (virtually) unavailable to me, as I am not willing to buy splat material released in a CCG format. If the game includes core mechanical systems that are bolstered by CCG material I won't be buying that product. If my choice affects you negatively, I am quite sorry, but you will just have to learn to live with that, much as I will have to learn to live with products released by WotC that I will not purchase if your own feedback influences WoTC to stick to such a CCG marketing model, or include it in future products.
P.S. I have been pursuing various avenues of consumer feedback as they all have different strengths and weaknesses. The benefit of a forum is that it allows others with similar opinions to rally behind individuals willing to speak their mind, and can potentially influence the purchasing habits of others (if they read my arguments and see the logic behind them).
community.wizards.com/dungeonsanddragons...
3.99 for 8 randomized cards (which equals to 234.4125$ times X, where X is very likely to be a number equal to 4 or more, thus making it very possible to pay upwards of 1252.28$, for the same number of different powers as found in a single power book such as psionic power). Personally, I don't think that is reasonable at all (I would rather pay a fixed 29.95$ for a power book)...
I'm not sure what kind of fancy math you are doing but I got approx. 50 cent a card at $3.99. Since I would have been happy paying $5 per booster pack of $3.99 is a good deal. Like source books booster packs are totally optional, I don't need them to play. Hell I played 8 years of 3.xe with only the core books. I can invest as little as $3.99 for a booster pack or $1 million dollars on them. If I do not want to expand my Gamma World game in that way, I have the otion to purchase the expansion box sets which offer rulebooks, counters, tiles as well as cards. I am still unconvinced that I will not enjoy Gamma World 4e.
And you do not need to be convinced that you will not enjoy Gamma World. You should do whatever you feel would best serve your interests. I am just sharing my 2 cents.
Gamma World unboxing video for anyone who is interested.
community.wizards.com/dungeonsanddragons...
I want.
Gamma World unboxing video for anyone who is interested.
community.wizards.com/dungeonsanddragons...
I want.
The qaulity of the video (ie. the constant stopping) does not bode well for the quality of the game.
The qaulity of the video (ie. the constant stopping) does not bode well for the quality of the game.
I thought the quality of the video was pretty good. I didn't notice any 'constant stopping' at any point. Did you give the video time to load?
The qaulity of the video (ie. the constant stopping) does not bode well for the quality of the game.
I thought the quality of the video was pretty good. I didn't notice any 'constant stopping' at any point. Did you give the video time to load?
Yes, I did. I also know I'm not the only one who had issues with it as there was a comment left on the video's page by someone else who has the same stopping issue.
The qaulity of the video (ie. the constant stopping) does not bode well for the quality of the game.
I didn't notice as it didn't stop for me. Quality was as good as it was all things considered. They did actually comment during the video on the fact that they could not focus on the card to give a better image of it, but that was really the only thing that stood out for me.
The fancy math is actually very simple. 3.99/8 = 0.49875. There are approximately 470 different powers in a power book, give or take. 470 X 0.49875 = 234.4125. But, that assumes zero randomization. Once you add in a randomized method if distribution the price increases again. This is because you will have to buy many powers over and over again in order to achieve 470 different powers. So, the price of 470 powers becomes 234.4125 times X. X = the factor of times you will have to buy 470 powers in order to achieve 470 different powers. Based on my personal experience, 4 times is a very conservative estimate (it is far more likely to be much higher). Still, I don't want to overestimate. So, I plugged 4 into X in order to give an example price. That comes out to 937.65 (sorry, that 1252.28 number is actually how much it would cost to buy 40$ worth of content, not 29.95$ worth of content, which is how much a power book costs). So, it costs upwards of 937.65$ to buy a single power book via this method of distribution. Or, in other words, it will cost you 239.40$ to an infinite amount of cash (though I doubt anyone would ever have enough bad luck to need to spend more than 1197$) to in order to buy a complete set of Gamma Worlds 120 booster cards (read: D&D equivalent powers) I call that horribly overpriced.
That also assumes all 470 powers can only be found in the booster backs and not in the first box set or any of the expansion boxes. You can make all kinds of assumptions, like at least one of each card available in the box sets, which would lead you to assume one would only need to by the box set to gain all the cards available. I would assume it some where in between, with few cards found only in the booster pacts, put that still a lot to assume. Besides I'm not gauging the value of my 4e game supplements by a formula of dollars per power. The description of how the mechanics works in th OP, really intrigues, so I just may spend a few bills on a booster pack or two.
And you do not need to be convinced that you will not enjoy Gamma World. You should do whatever you feel would best serve your interests. I am just sharing my 2 cents.
I am not, and I will continue do what serves my interest and share my two cents.
PS thanks for the break down of the math.
Did you give the video time to load?
I just tried to view it again. This time I gave it 14 minutes to load (almost twice the video's play length, btw). The stoppage started up about halfway through the video. Honestly, if this is what we can expect from WotC's offical videos, I'll just wait till they come out on YouTube.
If the only complaint is the quality of the video showing it then the actual product must be pretty good ;)
If that were the case, I would agree with you. And if wishes were horses we'd be up to our necks in poo and dead horses.
The fancy math is actually very simple. 3.99/8 = 0.49875. There are approximately 470 different powers in a power book, give or take. 470 X 0.49875 = 234.4125. But, that assumes zero randomization. Once you add in a randomized method if distribution the price increases again. This is because you will have to buy many powers over and over again in order to achieve 470 different powers. ... Or, in other words, it will cost you 239.40$ to an infinite amount of cash (though I doubt anyone would ever have enough bad luck to need to spend more than 1197$) to in order to buy a complete set of Gamma Worlds 120 booster cards (read: D&D equivalent powers) I call that horribly overpriced.
That also assumes all 470 powers can only be found in the booster backs and not in the first box set or any of the expansion boxes.
It's unlikely there'd be that many powers. It's just a handy reference to show just how expensive the CCG model could get aplied to an RPG. If a Gamma World 'mutations' book were released that was comparable in cost to a D&D 'Powers' book, an had as many mutations as such a book did powers, you'd be getting about 15 mutations per buck you spent on the book.
If WotC released a 'mutation deck' for 25 bucks, that had 50 cards, that'd be 50 cents per mutation you add to your game - 2 per buck, or 7-and-a-half times as expensive as the book format.
That'd also be the cost of the booster, /if they weren't blind and randomized/.
Factor in being forced to buy many duplicate cards in order to acquire a complete set of cards, and you're getting on towards two or three bucks per mutation, or 30-50 times the cost per mutation of the hardbound book format.
Dave's numbers are legit. Yeah, you can buy a pack or two of cards, and you've spent less than you would for a book - you've also gotten a whole lot less.
...
That also assumes all 470 powers can only be found in the booster backs and not in the first box set or any of the expansion boxes.
It's unlikely there'd be that many powers. It's just a handy reference to show just how expensive the CCG model could get aplied to an RPG. If a Gamma World 'mutations' book were released that was comparable in cost to a D&D 'Powers' book, an had as many mutations as such a book did powers, you'd be getting about 15 mutations per buck you spent on the book.
If WotC released a 'mutation deck' for 25 bucks, that had 50 cards, that'd be 50 cents per mutation you add to your game - 2 per buck, or 7-and-a-half times as expensive as the book format.
That'd also be the cost of the booster, /if they weren't blind and randomized/.
Factor in being forced to buy many duplicate cards in order to acquire a complete set of cards, and you're getting on towards two or three bucks per mutation, or 30-50 times the cost per mutation of the hardbound book format.
Dave's numbers are legit. Yeah, you can buy a pack or two of cards, and you've spent less than you would for a book - you've also gotten a whole lot less.
I don't argue against his numbers, I question the assumptions that these powers will only be available in booster packs and that a value in a 4e game supplement is equal to the power per dollar. Also I find the card mechanic interesting. I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game. It reminds me of those fun moments when someone draws a chance (alpha mutation), and community chest (omega tech) cards in a Monopoly game. Except you can change the odds of any one card being drawn with the addition of booster packs. FUN!!!
I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game. It reminds me of those fun moments when someone draws a chance (alpha mutation), and community chest (omega tech) cards in a Monopoly game. Except you can change the odds of any one card being drawn with the addition of booster packs. FUN!!!
In Monoploy, you don't buy booster packs of community chest or chance cards. You shuffle the ones that come with the game and it's perfectly fine. If they want to release GW's expansion cards in a non-randomized format, so we can go the Monopoly route and slap the new ones and old ones into a deck that just needs to be shuffled for instant randomness there wouldn't be so much hate against the cards.
I don't argue against his numbers, I question the assumptions that these powers will only be available in booster packs and that a value in a 4e game supplement is equal to the power per dollar. Also I find the card mechanic interesting.
Also valid, on all points. ;)
The value-for-your dollar of a 4e suplement is certainly greater than the powers-per-dollar would indicate, since it has stuff besides powers, and, the powers are presented to support classes, thus adding options and interest to each class. A booster pack, OTOH, just contains cards, each with a power (mutation). So, not only is it much less value for your dollar in terms of how many powers you get, it also offers nothing but a random selection of powers, none of the additional value offered by a well-written suplement.
If mutations are available outside of randomized/blind booster packs, great. A complete deck would be a superior product to boosters, and some sort of Mutant Power suplement would be better still. WotC could please - and get revenue from - both CCG enthusiasts and value-conscious gamers by publishing new mutations /first/ in booster cards, then in complete decks, then in suplements with additional useful material (and all the problems uncovered by the community from the booster release fixed).
Cards as a randomization mechanic are a great idea for Gamma World, I agree. There's no need for them to be sold in booster packs, though.
I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game.
It could, a bit, but mostly the CCG aspect just favors the more flush or obsessive players who go to extremes to get the best cards.
I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game. It reminds me of those fun moments when someone draws a chance (alpha mutation), and community chest (omega tech) cards in a Monopoly game. Except you can change the odds of any one card being drawn with the addition of booster packs. FUN!!!
In Monoploy, you don't buy booster packs of community chest or chance cards. You shuffle the ones that come with the game and it's perfectly fine.
I can do that with the Gamma World game, just shuffle the cards that come with the game and be perfectly fine.
If they want to release GW's expansion cards in a non-randomized format, so we can go the Monopoly route and slap the new ones and old ones into a deck that just needs to be shuffled for instant randomness there wouldn't be so much hate against the cards.
I understand the hate, I choose not to be a part of it.
...I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game.
It could, a bit, but mostly the CCG aspect just favors the more flush or obsessive players who go to extremes to get the best cards.
Yep, if that's how someone wants to be, obssessive with CCGs. But I can still buy 8 card booster pack for less than a frappaccino at Border's and will get more out of those 8 cards than I will out of that frappaccino. Then again I can play and enjoy the game without buying a single booster pack.
...I even think the adding booster packs to ones own deck could increase the randomness and zany fun in a Gamma World game.
It could, a bit, but mostly the CCG aspect just favors the more flush or obsessive players who go to extremes to get the best cards.
Yep, if that's how someone wants to be, obssessive with CCGs. But I can still buy 8 card booster pack for less than a frappaccino at Border's and will get more out of those 8 cards than I will out of that frappaccino. Then again I can play and enjoy the game without buying a single booster pack.
That's a fair comparison: two really overpriced things that aren't exactly good for you and can be addictive. ;)
Seriously, though, you can play the game without investing in boosters - if you're the DM, or if everyone else is playing without 'em. Play next to Mr. Obsessive and see how much fun you have.
But, y'know, you can play 4e without Divine Power and have fun with it. But, if you want, you can just buy Divine Power. You don't have to buy it page-by-random-page - blind - until you accidentally buy all the pages.
Boosters represent a game suplement - that you aren't allowed to buy, complete, you have to hunt after bits of it. That's fine when that's the whole point of the game, as with a CCG, it is not fine for an RPG suplement.
Boosters represent a game suplement - that you aren't allowed to buy, complete, you have to hunt after bits of it. That's fine when that's the whole point of the game, as with a CCG, it is not fine for an RPG suplement.
At last you ppl understood this. Make the next step. Get out of your Pokemon mentality. We don't have to catch them all. That's not the point of the game. We don't need to gather every card in the set. Your Mr. Obsessive will not be able to stack the deck with his precious rares - there are rules about how many could be there. And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from. So nothing game breaking gonna happen. It's cool to play with Mr. Obsessive - we can have fun looking through his card album, deciding which cards will be in our player deck.
And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from.
Sounded to me like, yes, a player would have his own deck. If there were just a communal 'player deck' then it would make a lot more sense to sell that deck, complete.
And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from.
Sounded to me like, yes, a player would have his own deck. If there were just a communal 'player deck' then it would make a lot more sense to sell that deck, complete.
Check out the video of the Gamma World box set, it comes with a complete deck of cards, plus one booster pack. The booster pack is just an overpriced optional add on. I read the OP that there is one deck to draw from, remember it's an RPG, first, with a CCG element. We can assume many things, assuming that all the powers will only be available in Booster Pack is only that an assumption and we will not know until later if that is the case.
Seriously, though, you can play the game without investing in boosters - if you're the DM, or if everyone else is playing without 'em. Play next to Mr. Obsessive and see how much fun you have.
How often are the decks being drawn from? The video says they are drawn from at certain times of the game. Once? Twice? Five times? Out of how many cards? Until we know these facts, saying that your game will be affected is just supposition. Personally, I do not see it being affected in any meaningful way.
Dislike the cards based on the fact that they are "expensive" and random, but I'm not going to buy that it will affect gameplay negatively.
And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from.
Sounded to me like, yes, a player would have his own deck. If there were just a communal 'player deck' then it would make a lot more sense to sell that deck, complete.
It doesn't sound to me like each player would have his own deck. My impression was that there would be a group deck that everyone would draw from. So I don't think you have to worry about someone else having all the good cards in their deck.
EDIT: I just noticed this quote from the original post.
By the way, the game provides rule for Players and Game Masters to create their decks, and there are limitations to how many of a particular type of card can be placed in a given deck.
It seems maybe players could have their own decks. That seems contrary to what I heard them say previously. My guess is that the deck building is an optional rule since it seem the core box set comes with a single deck.
Optional or not is seems it would be pretty easy to avoid each player haiving their own deck.
Well, we'll find out how 'optional' boosters on Gamma World game day.... the word so far is players will need two booster packs to play.
Well, let us know if you had to buy a booster pack to play or if you could use the cards that come with the box set that is not a booster pack as a player?
Peace!
Seriously, though, you can play the game without investing in boosters - if you're the DM, or if everyone else is playing without 'em. Play next to Mr. Obsessive and see how much fun you have.
How often are the decks being drawn from? The video says they are drawn from at certain times of the game. Once? Twice? Five times? Out of how many cards? Until we know these facts, saying that your game will be affected is just supposition. Personally, I do not see it being affected in any meaningful way.
Begining of each day. After using a one use ability (after comabat if used in cambat). Whenever the GW master says to toss the old one and get a new card. Exposure to radiation.
Dislike the cards based on the fact that they are "expensive" and random, but I'm not going to buy that it will affect gameplay negatively.
Agree with your dislike.
I think they should just have a random table to do the same mechanic.
The humor angle is something I'm against. And hope the the game can be played seriously. Have to wait and see for that though.
There seems to be confusion over the decks involved. From what I've been able to glean:
There are two complete decks included in the game: an 'omega tech' deck and an 'alpha mutation' deck.
You find an artifact, you draw from the omega deck, you get irradiated, you draw from the alpha deck.
(This mechanic is analogous to the old random tables for mutations and artificats. Which is a cool idea. It reflects the sort of zanyness of classic GW: "your mutant with radar eyes and hands for feat takes 2 dice of damage while unsuccessfully trying to determine how to use the ancient artifact - it appears putting your hands in the two slots at the top and having your friend pull down the lever on the side wasn't such a good idea... good thing you have two more hands to work with." )
Sometimes, though, when you change your active mutation, you can draw /either/ from the alpha deck, or from your own deck, that you've assembled from booster cards. Presumably, the mutations in the booster packs - which, it's been implied, are all good - are different from those in the alpha deck, or there'd be little point to it, and no point in ever drawing from the alpha deck instead of your own and risking a bad mutation.
The humor angle is something I'm against. And hope the the game can be played seriously. Have to wait and see for that though.
I am not against the humor angle, but I agree that I hope there is an option for more serious play.
I plan to use Gamma World as more of a side game, so lighthearted play and random cards do not turn me off of the product, but I would like the potential to adapt more serious post-apocalyptic campaign ideas to the GW rules.
It sounds like you have to play a mutant? I would not have minded the option to play a non-mutant character.
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I think they should just have a random table to do the same mechanic....
I think a random table would have been adequate and a lot less contraversial. But I like the card mechanic, it's different and sounds fun. It reminds me of the fun in drawing a chance card in monopoly. When I think of it, a card mechanic has been a standard in board games for decades, I think there is fun in using them in RPGs as well. I am looking forward to it.
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Presumably, the mutations in the booster packs - which, it's been implied, are all good - are different from those in the alpha deck, or there'd be little point to it, and no point in ever drawing from the alpha deck instead of your own and risking a bad mutation.
From watching the video of the opening the Gamma World box, I got the impression that there were good and bad mutations in the booster pack the only guarantee would be a rare card, which may or may not be available in the deck with the box set.
But, I get your concern, about organized play and the players bringing there own cheat decks. For our gaming group I doubt we will ever see a booster pack outside of the one in the box set. We live on a small island deep in the middle of the Pacific, unless someone goes to an anime convention off island I doubt we will ever see them at a retail outlet. But it would be cool if they are available at our local Borders, for me.
The humor angle is something I'm against. And hope the the game can be played seriously. Have to wait and see for that though.
I am not against the humor angle, but I agree that I hope there is an option for more serious play.
I plan to use Gamma World as more of a side game, so lighthearted play and random cards do not turn me off of the product, but I would like the potential to adapt more serious post-apocalyptic campaign ideas to the GW rules.
I just don't see no reason I can't approach the game with a serious tone. There might have to be some changes to the randomness a Gm might have to make to attain a more serious tone. I just don't see that as a road block for me. But again for me, the zany humorous tone was how I was going to approach my 4e Gamma World campaign anyway. Having the writing in the rule books, and possibly the game mechanics support a humorous zany tome is just a bonus.
It sounds like you have to play a mutant? I would not have minded the option to play a non-mutant character.
From what I understand, from a preview article in DDI, a player rolls a d20 on the same chart twice. This generates zany combinations like the often mentioned yeti/ cockroach. But if you role a human, human; then you get a pure strain human, I believe. I think for a more serious approach to Gamma World, I would drop the randomness of a mutant type table in character generation. Instead I would allow my players to choose the type of mutant if any, they wish to play. I would encourage my players to avoid silly mutant combinations. Anyway, I am looking forward to playing a Gamma WOlrd campaign.
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I think they should just have a random table to do the same mechanic....
I think a random table would have been adequate and a lot less contraversial. But I like the card mechanic, it's different and sounds fun.
I have been using home-made cards (mutations copied onto index cards) when I run Gamma World (1st ed, no less) at conventions, to speed up character generation (and to keep players from having to constantly look up their mutations in the two copies of the decades-out-of-print rulebook).
I have 400 of these cards - one for each possible result on each of the four charts. I still have players roll, but I suppose I could just as easily have shuffled them.
Having cool cards with an illustration and fluff text, and comparatively clean, keyword-using D&D-4e-power-style rules sounds great. It's just the randomized/blind booster pack idea that I can't abide. Complete decks, please.
From what I understand, from a preview article in DDI, a player rolls a d20 on the same chart twice. This generates zany combinations like the often mentioned yeti/ cockroach. But if you role a human, human; then you get a pure strain human, I believe.
IIRC, it was: you're an 'altered human' if you roll doubles. No idea what that means.
In Gamma World, players have always had the option of being PSH, mutant/humanoid, or mutated animal. In 4e you could also be a mutated plant.
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I have 400 of these cards - one for each possible result on each of the four charts. I still have players roll, but I suppose I could just as easily have shuffled them.
I used to make cards for random encounters, then have players draw from my Deck of Death.
Having cool cards with an illustration and fluff text, and comparatively clean, keyword-using D&D-4e-power-style rules sounds great. It's just the randomized/blind booster pack idea that I can't abide. Complete decks, please.
I will second that, complete decks, please.
It'll start as a side line that will blossom into a mini-setting for bit until we get bored and go back to a sideline. We have a lot of guys who've already made 4e pretty mutationous with their min/max builds.
So my take on stuff:
The Kitchen Sink, Whahoo Setting
It's easier sometimes to take stuff out, or make it NPC only, than make it from scratch. I may not want a Swarm PC in games, but they sound like a great monster.
I'm hoping that I can scale it back when I'm jonesing a more serious game. Overall, though, I like the idea of this being a one-night stand game and using D&D monsters will be a laugh.
The Cards
If I run at home, I'll be happy to post up a random Alpha Omega chart based on the cards in the box. Then the cards become a visual aide, not a game mechanic (which is the hot RPG thing right now.)
What I get in the box (which is like 42 mutations and 42 loots) is about what you'd get in a "mutation" chart anyway.
NOTE TO WOTC! My players would buy themed decks of Mutation and Loot like crack. Once they see something that fits their vision of a PC, it's on.
NOTE TO WOTC! My players won't buy random booster packs.
On the flip side, if I was demoing GW at the store, I'd go with the flow and let people bring in their cards as per the rules in the game. That would be more to support the local store than WotC.
If fact, I'd bet that my FLGS will buy the minmum case of boosters, they'll sit on the shelf collecting dust and then I'll be called in to do a demo to help get rid of them and they'll never get reordered again.
No one has even mentioned the upcoming support for the game:
Famine in Far-go - 11/16
Sooner Dead - 02/01
Legion of Gold - 02/15
www.wizards.com/dnd/Catalog.aspx
Famine and Legion are Expansion Kits with an adventure, tokens and more critters. Retail for about $30.
Sooner is an $8 something. I can't tell if it's an adventure or novel.
My pet peeve is actually the lack of printed previews with the game only a month away. That's pretty a interenting marketing tactic so far.
The September calander has five previews for Gamma World.
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Sooner is an $8 something. I can't tell if it's an adventure or novel.
Sooner Dead is a Gamma World novel by Mel Odom
My pet peeve is actually the lack of printed previews with the game only a month away. That's pretty a interenting marketing tactic so far.
The September calander has five previews for Gamma World.
I was hoping for an adventure, I'd get a kick out of it, growing up as a Okie. Glad to hear there's going to be some teasers coming out this month.
Regardless, let the speculation begin!
This is what I've gleaned so far and I'm confirming.- Only Mutant Animals Need Apply: I thought I heard that you only play mutant animals in this game, no pure strains?
- One "class" and it goes up only to 10 levels: True?
- All of the mutations are in the cards, none of them are in the book: This was a pain for Warhammer Fantasy. It's Excel time.
- Compatablity: I get the feeling that this more of a "For use of monsters and one-night silliness" and that GMs will have to have Leaky Plasma Rifles go dead when dragged to Forgetten Realms -- if it's not stated in the rules.
- There's a decent number of critters in the game, they've just squeezed them into a condensed layout: It seems that most critters only have a reprint of their token for a picture.
Here's my own random, mutant thoughts:
- Only Mutant Animals Need Apply: Oddly enough this makes 4th Ed. feel as a better fit to me as compared to D&D. For those who have a simliar disconnect, GW might find new players.
- The 10-Level limit: I'm on the fence about this. With only one class, it's going to be houserules to get them 11+ levels. Then again, I rarely have a game last longer than 10 levels.
- Think More '80s Comic Books And Cartoons Meets Rifts: This is a multiverse where everything and anything can happen, so jump on the bandwagon and let it ride. I think some groups are have "Radioactive Holidays" for their D&D PCs on the slow nights that other players couldn't show up. They pop in, level NeoL.A. and leave with the loot. Sort of a reoccuring Barrier Peaks setup.
- Two Mutants Enter, One Mutant Leaves: I have friends who constatly play Monty Haul DnD campaigns, they design the most outrageous race/clas/feat combos and weekly session resembles so much as an arena fight against the GM's foes. GW will be a hit for them, I think.
- Compatablity: A hard core GW GM is going to need the DMG for rules on how to tweak monsters and design encounters to get longevity out of his game. In a wierd way, the GW might be considered an alternate PH.
This isn't really important, but this is the 7th edition of Gamma World, even though it's being released as part of the 4e D&D line. I note this because if you tell a hard-core Gamma World fan that you like the 4th ed of the game, you'll be in for a long and confusing conversation about the version that came out in '93... (which was arguably the best ed of the game so far).
Well, that was after my time.
I had fond memories of my first ever "accidental" campaign, which evolved out of GW 2nd edition. Their PCs became village leaders, parents and then sent out young warriors to prove their mettle. I loved it all, the one-eye chickens, the conflicts with humans and the rest of the craziness.
The ACT table turned me off and I was onto TMNT by then. By the time I got into GURPS, GW was a pleasent memory.
(a) You don't have to buy the boosters if you don't want to.
(b) It seems like there are enough cards in the box to support fleshed-out and complex characters.
(c) The per-card game value is lower, since you're going to be switching out cards pretty frequently.
(d) The adoption rate is going to be fairly low, so you probably won't have to worry about all your friends bringing over custom Gamma World decks.
(e) Characters die pretty frequently, so you'll have to come up with new configurations.
(f) I'm sure there will be ways to get fun new cards without spending money on boosters (for example, everyone who DMs/plays in the Gamma World WWGD gets two exclusive cards.
That, plus the tongue-in-cheek humor, plus guns, and I think this is going to be a really fun game that lets people just kick back and have a good time.
The game is a campy sci-fi RPG where the world went crazy thanks to the Hadron Super-Collider. Alternate time-lines of AI robots, aliens, Armageddon, and other wacky stuff all merge into our world.
The game is a campy sci-fi RPG where the world went crazy thanks to the Hadron Super-Collider. Alternate time-lines of AI robots, aliens, Armageddon, and other wacky stuff all merge into our world.
I like it.
Your Mr. Obsessive will not be able to stack the deck with his precious rares - there are rules about how many could be there. And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from. So nothing game breaking gonna happen. It's cool to play with Mr. Obsessive - we can have fun looking through his card album, deciding which cards will be in our player deck.
We'll, you were about 1/4 right... www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
There are rules for building a player deck. It's a minimum of 7 cards each in each player's alpha and omega decks, maximum of two of any given card. No restriction on rares, so Mr. Obsessive could have a deck of 8 cards with two each of the top four best rare mutations or tech out there. The bigger you make your deck, the less likely you'll get any given thing, but also the less likely you'll run out of player cards (which refresh after a long rest, so there's also a built-in encentive for the 5-minute work day, as in D&D - oh well). Yes, each player can have his own decks (two, in fact, one for tech as well as one for mutations).
Your Mr. Obsessive will not be able to stack the deck with his precious rares - there are rules about how many could be there. And BTW - why do you think every player will have his own deck? I read the player deck as a deck that sits on the table for all players to draw from. So nothing game breaking gonna happen. It's cool to play with Mr. Obsessive - we can have fun looking through his card album, deciding which cards will be in our player deck.
We'll, you were about 1/4 right... www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
There are rules for building a player deck. It's a minimum of 7 cards each in each player's alpha and omega decks, maximum of two of any given card. No restriction on rares, so Mr. Obsessive could have a deck of 8 cards with two each of the top four best rare mutations or tech out there. The bigger you make your deck, the less likely you'll get any given thing, but also the less likely you'll run out of player cards (which refresh after a long rest, so there's also a built-in encentive for the 5-minute work day, as in D&D - oh well). Yes, each player can have his own decks (two, in fact, one for tech as well as one for mutations).
So, the cheepest was to have the most powerful Player Deck would be to by 7 Boosters and use the seven rares and 14 uncommons two build your decks.
Still requires some luck. Hum...
5 Booster 5 rare and 10 unc.
