We have already seen some revelations from GenCon of new product developments. Some of those revelations (new FR books in 2011) have their own threads, and some of those are in more than one Forum.
The idea behind this thread is to catch little items so they are not lost in the shuffle. Some of these items may not warrant their own thread. They do deserve mention, though.
Podcast of 4e Design and Development session: thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/06/tome-genc... Thanks, The Tome Show.
Tidbit @12:30: WotC wants Themes (you know, like Dark Sun) into Core D&D soon, and the Saturday Preview may have more info.
Tidbit @27:00: WotC wants story in with crunch. That's why Essentials powers stuff has more flavor text. They are not gonna change everything up in 4e (like Lightning Bolt does change as an Evocation w/ half damage).
Tidbit @31:40: Mages have some utilites which are _not_ levelled, because they are more like rituals.
Tidbit @33:05: Essentials-type design is all the way to Epic tier.
Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.
Tidbit @38:55: Essentials could be in hardback if demand. New non-Essentials stuff will still be hardcovers. But if demand, non-Essentials could be softcover.
Tidbit @40:36: Skill Challenges have been looked at (again) for the DM Kit.
Tidbit @42:03: "Will the PHB be out of print?" "NO."
I'm curious about how they plan to incorporate the "Themes".
Very interesting; thank you Yaldabaoth!
I'm curious about how they plan to incorporate the "Themes".
I was wondering it too. "Core D&D soon"?
I myself suggested the idea of "AD&D kits" like a houserule for 4th ed here in the official forum. Was I heared by WotC?
Please, don´t tell me about a new core set of revised D&D 4th Ed! Because I haven´t bought new book yet I wonder... Do I buy them or do I wait 4.5?
I guess they're talking about some new magic item system? I'm curious to hear more about that.
Very interesting; thank you Yaldabaoth!
I'm curious about how they plan to incorporate the "Themes".
I could see it as a feat. Perhaps background + feat.
>___>
Bladesinger Class.
>___>
I said this in another thread, but why this way?? can we really have 2 or 3 builds for it? I was expecting an esstialized version of bladesinger
Encounters are... 3rd season: Keep on the Borderlands. Seaons of Snakes is tied into Essentials, because lots of Ophidian stuff. ?!?! (I do love Zehir, but not the snake angle. More darkness and murder and less yuan-ti, please).
D&D Fortune Cards in '11. Add some randomness form many years ago to your games (How many other publishers have done this?). The phrase Random Boosters is used. ?!?!?!
Magic items will be common, uncommon, and rare in the Mordenkainen's Book of Killing Tools. Each gets a story. Player's can't make uncommon & rare. Most magic items will be uncommon, which means more DM control, but also means that the possibilty of the all-halfling party finding a +3 Crashing Mordenkrad in the hands of a dumb DM.
Q2: Shadowfell will be a boxed set. "The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond".
Q2: "Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale" (MV2: Electric Bugaloo) Not only tokens and critters, but maps (and encounters?).
Q3: Player's Handbook: Champions of the Heroic Tier. "New rules for being a blacksmith for example... New feats as well, focusing on lvl 1-10 " ?!?!?!
Forgotten Realms Neverwinter Campaign Guide: Get a Bladesinger class (I'm guessing Essentialized Swordmage build). [Secret Suspicion: There will be a new video game tie-in at some point in time. No evidence of this, though.]
Hero Builder's Handbook: "Hero Builder's Handbook - higher aimed player, the tinkerer who wants to play with the classes, things for optimizers, customizers" Mechanics, or just advice?
"Madness of Gardmore Abbey - new superadventure box, includes deck of many things " [Yawn]
"Assasin will stay exclusive to ddi. " ?!?!?!?!
"DMG3 prob in 2012, not enough groups in epic yet, support for epic in ddi "
"Hinting at 4e computer game with atari. " (What did I tell you above?)
"Alternative to parcel system? "In the dm kit and compendium... Random treasure tables..."
I'm done copying/pasting.
Wha? Some of those sound cool like the Shadowfell thing....but most of the rest is just ...what? I am so confused about what is going on at WotC now.
Well, what's the problem with it?
It appears that WotC is convinced that by (re)developing IPs it already owns and rejiggering mechanics to match grognard expectations, it can lure back all the lax former players.
The Return of [Whatever]. High Spec Boxed Intro and Setting Sets. Playing up Flavor instead of DIY. Mechanic design choices that are tailored to players of previous editions. (Random crap, deliberately flounting design choices that defined 4e playstyles like players grabbing items and letting you figure out stuff on the fly. BLACKSMITHING RULES?)
There are a lot of card-based stuff; in the Design and Development speech they referred to the amount of powers players have as _hand-size_. D&D is very tactile now, with tokens and cards and fiddly things. (Yes Yes... Minatures predate D&D. That's not what I am talking about. Ancillary stuff. Board Games.)
Then again, they are trying to catch the wave of faddish nth retread "dark side" stuff (IMHO). You can be a gloomy [whatever] in Heroes of Shadow. And go to the creepy Shadowfell (buy our thing). And meet (or date!) a spooky Vampire Person or Ghost Person (buy more of our stuff).
AND! They get a metaplot with the Abyssal Plague stuff! ORIGINAL.
So, they are not only trying to turn back the clock in an (IMHO) arch-reactionary way, but they are retreading ground that not only they, but other companies stomped down DECADES ago. They are trying to be a hybrid of TSR circa 1991 and White Wolf circa 1996.
I cannot fathom why, because they cannot be all things to all people. Almost the entire slate revealed looks utterly uncompelling (to me), and while they will pick up some folks on the nostalgia train, 2011 is not the time to try it... 2008 was. That ship sailed. I cannot imagine that Pathfinder fans (which I will state up front I'm not a member of) will think "WOW! Bladesinger?! MOMMA I'M COMIN' HOME!" New players will not care about this stuff. I fear WotC will alienate existing players in an effort to bend over backwards trying to claw back wayward lax D&Ders. This is funny, as a lot of folks thought this about Essentials design, and I poo-pooed them. It's all the other products which bring me to this conclusion, and some of those who didn't like essentials may love this other stuff.
My gut reaction reading this stuff was one of dawning disappintment. I don't know how else to describe how horrible I feel looking at the release schedule. (And whither the GSL?)
I am not exaggerating when I say that I'm going to go drink some Belgian Beer this afternoon and try to get this off my mind.
I don't like the idea of magical itmes that cannot be created by players.
Player: I wanna create magical item X
DM: You can't it is a rare item and players can't create them.
Player: You suck and you abuse your power! How did that item get created anyway?
Im guessing rares are somewhere between magic items and artifacts, so they came into being via fate or gods or whatever.
That said, an artificer with that feat that lets him makes items higher level than him, at level 30, and say is demigod, will be very annoyed that he still isnt a master crafter.
Also, if all current magic items are 'uncommon', how dull are common magic items?
I don't like the idea of magical itmes that cannot be created by players.
Player: I wanna create magical item X
DM: You can't it is a rare item and players can't create them.
Player: You suck and you abuse your power! How did that item get created anyway?
Player: I wanna create magical item X.
DM: Your character doesn't *know* about Magical Item X because it's a rare item. There are so few of them in the world that any stories your character may have heard about this item may have been exaggerated beyond comprehension.
Player: Oh. I definitely want to quest to find one then!
DM: I think I can help you with you.
You can't really create a PDF of a Box Set. That's ingenuity for you. Maybe this will solve some of the piracy problems that's plagued this Edition.
I'm excited about the new releases. Lots of Shadowfell and Ravenloft love. I love the concept of a Shadowfell box set rather than just another The Plane X book on it. Hopefully Feywild will get a similar release. I'm interested what they're going to do with the Players Handbook Champions series too. The splitting up of items into three categories makes sense to me, actually. I always felt there were magic items that were really just masterwork items, like Mithral Shirts or Elven Boots, while there were also truly magical in origin.
I've had trouble justifying "NO MAGIC ITEMS" when some are clearly just higher-grade normal items with specific effects.
Well, what's the problem with it?
Yaldabaoth caught the general gist of it. To go into some more specific items:
Fortune Cards- I admit this is more of a gut reation than anything else, but from what was posted it seems like it is taking the Gamma World random mutations mechanic and tossing it into D&D proper for no other reason than to sell booster packs. There is really no need to add a card based mechanic to D&D proper.
Mord's item book- Keeping regular magic items out of reach of the players was one of the sacred cows killed in 4ed and I am really getting tired of them casting ressurection on the sacred cow burgers I've already eaten.
Champions of the Heroic Tier- Apparently they decided to split Roll-playing for Roleplayers up into three volumes. *sigh*
"Assasin will stay exclusive to ddi. "- Clearly a lie since we know there is assassin support in Heroes of Shadows based on the preview blurb. probably just them saying it will be a sub-class in the book instead.....and that use of double speak hardly inspires me to trust anything these guys say.
"Alternative to parcel system? "In the dm kit and compendium... Random treasure tables..."- Another resurected sacred cow....although only care about this one on principle since I'm fairly certain my current DM won't change what he is doing.
Player: I wanna create magical item X.
DM: Your character doesn't *know* about Magical Item X because it's a rare item. There are so few of them in the world that any stories your character may have heard about this item may have been exaggerated beyond comprehension.
Player: Oh. I definitely want to quest to find one then!
DM: I think I can help you with you.
Other Player: But all he wanted was a +1 sword...
:P
Box sets seem to be a great way to avoid people pirating PDFs.
You can't really create a PDF of a Box Set. That's ingenuity for you. Maybe this will solve some of the piracy problems that's plagued this Edition.
Lol, ah man that's a good joke there. :D....Wait you were being serious weren't you?
People will still pirate the part that they want(the text) with or without the box. While I'm sure some people may want to get the box just for the other items in the set, you'll have a roughly equal number of people who resort to piracy because they don't want all the bells and whistles that come in the box set.Edit: Oh freaking BS! I was just reading through the twitter account and noticed this lovely bit:
Most magic items now in game are
Will be retroactively marked as uncommon. They are now in the hands of dm.
I wonder how long till we get THACO errated back in? *sigh*
On the level of alchemical items I guess.
Yep. As they should. Potions, elixirs, minor scrolls etc. And readl magic is not bought or crafted, but found after a long and hard quest. That's how I wanted to do it in my next campaign. Probably WotC heard me when I was talking to myself about it
Questing for magic gear just feels too close to the World of Warcraft You do Raid Dungeons to get better items... so you can do better Raid dungeons... So you can get better items paradigm.
Then again, I'd perfer they'd just remove magic items all together, aside from wonderous items and trinkets, bake the damage and hit bonus right into character advancement and add the most useful item properties as feats and skill powers. (yes, I know they already have a system for that, but it fails to include all the items properties that many characters need just to function)
critical-hits.com/2010/08/07/gen-con-201...
But some of it I don't know if I believe, if only because it's hard for us to get a straight story right now.
"Common and uncommon items can be bought and created by characters. Rare items can only be given out by a DM. Most items already in existence are going to be retroactively classified as Uncommon, and almost all items going forward in new books will be Rare." But some other stuff says Player's only make commons.
"The Assassin class is NOT in Heroes of Shadow, but it and the Revenant will appear in Heroes of the Fallen Lands Essentials product." Wait... WHAT?!?! We have other stuff that says it's exclusive to DDI.
"The Player’s Handbook Races series (Dragonborn and Tiefling) proved problematic in stores thanks to the format, so the Human book is effectively canceled, and they’re looking at new ways to do the concept." Fantastic... so they will have a big races book with 15 kinds of people, when all you want are "People".
Some of the other entries are doosies, too.
Fortune Cards: "They emphasized that like the Gamma World mutations, they’re not something you should collect a set of for your character. In fact, they recommend opening the boosters at the game table to inject more randomness." Better yet, buy one every day you don't play for EXTRA randomness. Imagine what could have happened had you run a game! Then throw them away. Don't collect them.
Ravenloft: "While keeping most of the information about this hidden for now, they did say there would be some interesting new physical components to the game of some kind." Indeed, included there are plastic fangs, hairy paw mittens, bandages, a sheet with holes cut out, AND real lead-free pewter bolts to adhere to your neck.
I count ~9+ products that contain cards from today until the end of the preview window (~Q4 2011).
All in all I am pretty happy by a lot of this news. But WotC won't see a penny from my pocket on Fortune Cards, and I REALLY hope they don't include random collectible booster packs of cards in the Ravenloft product either. If they do, I don't know if I will be able to bring myself to buy it. I might. Ravenloft is one of my top 4 favorite products. But I also might not. I hate collectible card game mechanics in my RPGs.
Box sets seem to be a great way to avoid people pirating PDFs.
You can't really create a PDF of a Box Set. That's ingenuity for you. Maybe this will solve some of the piracy problems that's plagued this Edition..
umm.. WOTC themselves used to sell PDF's of boxed sets... I don't think it will affect Piracy at all..
Box sets seem to be a great way to avoid people pirating PDFs.
You can't really create a PDF of a Box Set. That's ingenuity for you. Maybe this will solve some of the piracy problems that's plagued this Edition..
umm.. WOTC themselves used to sell PDF's of boxed sets... I don't think it will affect Piracy at all..
Box sets include many things that are of interest beyond just a PDF book.
Maps, cards, dice, minatures, tiles, etc.
For example, one of these will include a Deck of Many Things. Yes, you could scan them, and then print out duplicates of them (for back-up purposes of course), but they won't have the feel of real cards, and that's a lot of work, on both ends. Digital Card Decks, unless worked as a program that randomises them and not just a viewer, really stink.
There are ways to include desireable things in Box Sets that you can't in just a book. A move towards Box Sets seems the opposite direction than the DDI direction touted at the beginning of the edition, but it's a good move, in my opinion.
Edit: Oh freaking BS! I was just reading through the twitter account and noticed this lovely bit:Most magic items now in game are
Will be retroactively marked as uncommon. They are now in the hands of dm.
I wonder how long till we get THACO errated back in? *sigh*
I am actually liking this statement.. it seems that there are very few awesome new items coming out and plenty of meh items coming out now.. why not let them dry up for a while and wait until they have some quality ideas?.. it might suit me best because i am like the grinch in my games with magical items (the whole uncommon and rare items cannot be produced by PCs - I have been house ruleing something similar for years.)
I might just like because it suits my games down to the ground.. but I am liking it alot.
Box sets seem to be a great way to avoid people pirating PDFs.
You can't really create a PDF of a Box Set. That's ingenuity for you. Maybe this will solve some of the piracy problems that's plagued this Edition..
umm.. WOTC themselves used to sell PDF's of boxed sets... I don't think it will affect Piracy at all..
Box sets include many things that are of interest beyond just a PDF book.
Maps, cards, dice, minatures, tiles, etc.
For example, one of these will include a Deck of Many Things. Yes, you could scan them, and then print out duplicates of them (for back-up purposes of course), but they won't have the feel of real cards, and that's a lot of work, on both ends. Digital Card Decks, unless worked as a program that randomises them and not just a viewer, really stink.
There are ways to include desireable things in Box Sets that you can't in just a book. A move towards Box Sets seems the opposite direction than the DDI direction touted at the beginning of the edition, but it's a good move, in my opinion.
Yes the pirates will miss out on some of the nice little bonus stuff that come in a box set.. the problem is a lot of them are willing to sacrifice those thing to get the books for free. Alot of people said when WOTC stopped producing PDF's it would stamp out piracy.. it barely even slowed it down. I think box sets will have about the same amount of effect.
I am not a fan of box sets myself. As mentioned by somebody up above, they are a massive pain in the ass to carry around to games. Especially if you have alot of them (in my second ed days I had 7 or 8 I used to carry around, along with all of the books i needed). I really hope WOTC come up with an elecrontic format for the books themselves again soon.. I would love to be able to just take my laptop instead of a massive bag (or two) of books..
I do use the maps off their galleries they post online though.
Nice stuff here:
critical-hits.com/2010/08/07/gen-con-201...
But some of it I don't know if I believe, if only because it's hard for us to get a straight story right now.
"Common and uncommon items can be bought and created by characters. Rare items can only be given out by a DM. Most items already in existence are going to be retroactively classified as Uncommon, and almost all items going forward in new books will be Rare." But some other stuff says Player's only make commons.
. . .
I count ~9+ products that contain cards from today until the end of the preview window (~Q4 2011).
Don't forget the possiblity of item rarity being a lead up to Magic Item Card boosters for determining random loot. Afterall, nothing says random like shuffling a deck of loot cards. You don't have to collect them either, unless you ever want the new magic items.
Nice stuff here:
critical-hits.com/2010/08/07/gen-con-201...
Don't rely on the info posted there. Dave misheard/misunderstood some of the stuff discussed in that seminar. Assassins and revenants are not going to be in HotFL, for example. Some new stuff for assassins will be released online at the same time as HoS is released in print, and a new 'Essentials' build for the assassin, plus some new stuff for the revenant, will be released online when HotFL comes out in print.
My advice is to listen to the audio recordings of the seminars rather than relying on second-hand sources.
Questing for magic gear just feels too close to the World of Warcraft You do Raid Dungeons to get better items... so you can do better Raid dungeons... So you can get better items paradigm.
Who said about questing for magic gear? You save the world, fight villains and this magical sword you have with you is not in Ye Olde Magic Shoppe or custom-made by your wizard friend, but taken from the powerful villain you defeated when saving castle Tordsten from invading horde of Bloody Skull savages and their undead master.
That's the way I intend to do it.
Then again, I'd perfer they'd just remove magic items all together, aside from wonderous items and trinkets, bake the damage and hit bonus right into character advancement and add the most useful item properties as feats and skill powers. (yes, I know they already have a system for that, but it fails to include all the items properties that many characters need just to function)
Example of such properties? Any character can function just fine without any gear. Not optimal maybe, no insane damage, but function and play and fight? That's for sure.
Example of such properties? Any character can function just fine without any gear. Not optimal maybe, no insane damage, but function and play and fight? That's for sure.
Have you tried playing a tiefling fighter without a flaming weapon? ;)
(I'm actually hoping flaming weapons are among the few pre-existing items they allow as 'common', otherwise you can probably say goodbye to seeing any tieflings that aren't members of Int or Cha primary classes.)
Example of such properties? Any character can function just fine without any gear. Not optimal maybe, no insane damage, but function and play and fight? That's for sure.
Have you tried playing a tiefling fighter without a flaming weapon? ;)
(I'm actually hoping flaming weapons are among the few pre-existing items they allow as 'common', otherwise you can probably say goodbye to seeing any tieflings that aren't members of Int or Cha primary classes.)
No. So what makes him a bad fighter? Could you elaborate further?
Hopefully the designers won't try and retroactively 'take away toys we already had' by removing the ability to craft most of the items that are already out there. That would be exceptionally annoying.
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
Recording of Gencon WotC upcoming products seminar from yesterday.
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
thnx for pointing me to this
i dont really like this part
Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.
i dont really like this part
Why? What's wrong with a class having something that makes them unique?
Without flaming attacks, there's just not much to make tieflings good fighters.
Why? What makes them not good?
Are other fighters good without flaming attacks?
between changing race to fit more holes (which i dont like), presumably bc of all the impetus put on mbas, and now all the classes will be retro-actively esentialized, well...
1. theyve changed existing classes (or announced they will)
2. theyve changed races (or announced they will)
3. theyre changing treasure and creation rules
4. theyre changin the power structure (or arent they? Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.)
all these things together even taken w things i like (new dmg and stats for monsters)
and what you have is a dramatic sweeping change, not at all the 10 product one-off that they tried to present it as when everyone starting mumbling about a new edition.
if this isnt a new edition then it certainly has all the trappings for one
regardless of whether you like the changes or not, you would have to say these are major changes? or am i wrong?
i love 4e i dont want to see it get morphed into a different game and i feel like that is whats happening
its just my opinion but i think its valid
Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.
i dont really like this part
Are you sure of the time @37:28 ?
On my mp3 player for part 1, at 37:28 they're talking about the novels and Abyssal Plague.
On my mp3 player for part 2, at 37:28 they're talking about changes to the open play games (ie. RPGA, Encounters, etc ...).
its just changing the game too much to fit essentials to where you know what, nobody was being paranoid about the game getting changed, they are actually doing it
between changing race to fit more holes (which i dont like), presumably bc of all the impetus put on mbas, and now all the classes will be retro-actively esentialized, well...
1. theyve changed existing classes (or announced they will)
2. theyve changed races (or announced they will)
3. theyre changing treasure and creation rules
4. theyre changin the power structure (or arent they? Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.)
all these things together even taken w things i like (new dmg and stats for monsters)
and what you have is a dramatic sweeping change, not at all the 10 product one-off that they tried to present it as when everyone starting mumbling about a new edition.
if this isnt a new edition then it certainly has all the trappings for one
regardless of whether you like the changes or not, you would have to say these are major changes? or am i wrong?
i love 4e i dont want to see it get morphed into a different game and i feel like that is whats happening
its just my opinion but i think its valid
Yeah, except they aren't changing things. New builds are not a change. An alternate system of rewarding magic items is not a change. They aren't changing the power structure. Look at the mage and the warpriest. They still get at-wills, encounter powers and dailies at the same rate as old classes. And having some builds use the traditional power structure while some don't is not a change either. No one at WotC ever said, "We will never give out a class feature at level 5." And lastly, giving races an optional secondary ability score bonus is not a change. It is an option. And most importantly, it is an option that the majority of 4E players have been clamoring for since the release of PHB3.
Now what I want to know is why are you acting like someone at WotC has a gun to your head and is forcing you to play something you don't want to play? Also, why do you assume that playing a class that functions a little bit differently than the classes you know will automatically not be fun? You are making statements as if you have more knowledge about these future products than not only the rest of us, but as if you know more than the designers do.
And even the basic compatibility isn't exactly without friction. The errata for the PHB grows ever larger, and makes it awkward to use that book as a reference. On the other hand, the Monster Manual isn't getting major errata, meaning that the monsters presented are increasingly out of tune with the assumed math of the game. It's at the point where the most useful patch to the monster builder for me would be the option to block any monsters from before MM2 from showing in the list.
Overall, I'm happy with most of the changes. Overall, I like most of the new direction (gimmicks like fate cards notwithstanding). Overall, I don't see many problems mixing pre and post essentials in the same game. But at this point post essentials 4e feels like a larger departure from original 4e then 3.5 felt from 3.0. Of course, I didn't dislike 3.5's release because it represented a significant shift in the game design, I disliked it because it invalidated my collection of 3.0 books if I wanted to use new expansions, and essentials specifically doesn't do that, from what I can tell at the moment. I'm actually quite looking forward to the first time I get to play a 4.0 warlord in a party with 4.e martial classes (hopefully I'll get the chance before Heroes of Shadow comes out, because after that it's all Necromancer all the time for me).
But I do find it more then a little disconcerting, even if my reaction isn't as negative as Frothsof's.
Without flaming attacks, there's just not much to make tieflings good fighters.
Why? What makes them not good?
Are other fighters good without flaming attacks?
Tieflings just don't make good fighters. Their stats, particularly their ability score bonuses, just don't work. Intelligence and Charisma for a fighter? Great, those are the two dump stats for a fighter - the only two ability scores that no fighter build needs. However, since Tieflings can get a +1 to attacks and damage with any fire attacks, using a Flaming Weapon can help offset their naturaly suckiness at being a Fighter.
I don't know. While I am generally feeling pretty positive about the new releases, essentials included, it does feel like a new edition. A lot of fundamental design principles are changing significantly, there are considerable changes in monster design, class design, race design, item design, even some changes to core rules if I heard right about daze and stun getting looked at. The new stuff may still be compatible with the previous stuff, but it's not necessarily balanced with it - old basic attack enhancers are rumored to be getting the nerf because the new martial classes potentially aren't balanced with them - and it's telling that if there are balance compatibility issues then the new stuff isn't being designed to work with the old stuff, it's being designed as though the old stuff didn't exist, with the assumption that if there are any problems then the old stuff will get nerfed in an update.
And even the basic compatibility isn't exactly without friction. The errata for the PHB grows ever larger, and makes it awkward to use that book as a reference. On the other hand, the Monster Manual isn't getting major errata, meaning that the monsters presented are increasingly out of tune with the assumed math of the game. It's at the point where the most useful patch to the monster builder for me would be the option to block any monsters from before MM2 from showing in the list.
Overall, I'm happy with most of the changes. Overall, I like most of the new direction (gimmicks like fate cards notwithstanding). Overall, I don't see many problems mixing pre and post essentials in the same game. But at this point post essentials 4e feels like a larger departure from original 4e then 3.5 felt from 3.0. Of course, I didn't dislike 3.5's release because it represented a significant shift in the game design, I disliked it because it invalidated my collection of 3.0 books if I wanted to use new expansions, and essentials specifically doesn't do that, from what I can tell at the moment. I'm actually quite looking forward to the first time I get to play a 4.0 warlord in a party with 4.e martial classes (hopefully I'll get the chance before Heroes of Shadow comes out, because after that it's all Necromancer all the time for me).
But I do find it more then a little disconcerting, even if my reaction isn't as negative as Frothsof's.
I wasn't really concerned until the bolded sentence. Really? I just don't get this.
The thing is, what you see as changes, at least for the most part, aren't actual changes. If they start printing less creatures that daze and stun because most people who play the game are telling Wizards that being dazed and stunned sucks all the fun out the game, and DMs are likewise saying that having their elites and solos dazed and stunned makes it incredibly difficult to run a challenging encounter, but at the same time they don't change any of the dozens and dozens of old creatures who do daze and stun, what's the problem? Everyone gets what they want.
I mean most everything you are worried about is a bunch of options that allow people to play how they have been playing or to try something new (and mostly stuff that the fan-base has been clamoring for). If they were changing Elf to get +2 Dex/+2 Str, then I could see your point. But they're changing it to +2 Dex/+2 Wis or +2 Str. You can keep playing the elf exactly as you did before. But the thousands of people who want to play an awesome elven fighter will be able to play how they want to as well. (Yes, I'm just assuming the elf will get Str as its new secondary ability).
My point is that no one is forcing you to play in a way you don't want to. They're giving us both new options. If you don't like the options they're giving me, then ignore them. I don't like beastmaster rangers, so I don't play them.
Without flaming attacks, there's just not much to make tieflings good fighters.
Why? What makes them not good?
Are other fighters good without flaming attacks?
Tieflings just don't make good fighters. Their stats, particularly their ability score bonuses, just don't work. Intelligence and Charisma for a fighter? Great, those are the two dump stats for a fighter - the only two ability scores that no fighter build needs. However, since Tieflings can get a +1 to attacks and damage with any fire attacks, using a Flaming Weapon can help offset their naturaly suckiness at being a Fighter.
um.. when the tiefling can choose from a 3rd stat wont that change too?
and just throw a 10 and an 8 in Int and Cha, get a 10 and a 12 (so you don't suck at those skills) and you can still build a cool fighter... infact I am going to my character builder now... I shall retuern
Now, I don't mind such things being restricted in a narrow setting like Darksun. Darksun puts restrictions on arcane classes and outright bans divine classes and it works. For Darksun. Limited access to items is part of Darksun's specific character, and I'm willing to accept the restrictions to item-specific builds within that context. But I'd rather not have the core setting discourage such builds in that way.
Now, maybe it won't. The quotes go both ways at the moment, so I'm not complaining about this issue anymore, at least until we get a clear confirmation one way or the other.
Don't forget the possiblity of item rarity being a lead up to Magic Item Card boosters for determining random loot. Afterall, nothing says random like shuffling a deck of loot cards. You don't have to collect them either, unless you ever want the new magic items.
This. I definitely agree that it could be the next step.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Proof of concept, level 1
Tiefling, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.
AC: 19 Fort: 15 Reflex: 14 Will: 12
HP: 28 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7
TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +5, Streetwise +5, Athletics +6
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy, Dungeoneering +2, Endurance -1, Heal +2, History +1, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth +2, Thievery
FEATS
Level 1: Turathi Weapon Training
POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter encounter 1: Passing Attack
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
ITEMS
Khopesh, Heavy Shield, Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Bottle of Wine, Crowbar
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Proof of concept, level 6
Tiefling, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8.
AC: 25 Fort: 19 Reflex: 18 Will: 16
HP: 58 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 14
TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +8, Streetwise +8, Athletics +9
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +2, Heal +5, History +4, Insight +5, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Thievery +3
FEATS
Level 1: Turathi Weapon Training
Level 2: Bloodseeker
Level 4: Fighter Weapon Specialization
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter encounter 1: Passing Attack
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Shielded Sides
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Demoralize Foe
ITEMS
Khopesh, Heavy Shield, Scale Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Bottle of Wine, Crowbar, Death's Brink Drakescale Armor +2, Magic Khopesh +2, Cape of the Mountebank +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
To be fair, I don't think anybody is saying you can't build a tiefling fighter without flaming weapons.
My intended point wasn't so much that tiefling fighters in particular needed flaming weapons to function, and more that elemenally-themed weapon-using character concepts (of which the Tiefling Firefighter is just one example) are fun and cool, but also totally dependant on access to specific weapons, and if you can't assume access to such weapons (like, say, in a Darksun game), then those builds don't really work, in much the same way that a beastmaster ranger build wouldn't work if you had to rely on random treasure tables to supply you with your animal companion, with no guarantee that you would ever get one.
Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.
i dont really like this part
How is that any different from how it is now? Except you don't get all "class only" stuff at just lvl 1. Which itself isn't any different, considering several classes have things that increase at lvl 11 and 21, or by a stat mod.
The main difference seems to be the formating, and some better control over how things level up.
Without flaming attacks, there's just not much to make tieflings good fighters.
Why? What makes them not good?
Are other fighters good without flaming attacks?
Tieflings just don't make good fighters. Their stats, particularly their ability score bonuses, just don't work. Intelligence and Charisma for a fighter? Great, those are the two dump stats for a fighter - the only two ability scores that no fighter build needs. However, since Tieflings can get a +1 to attacks and damage with any fire attacks, using a Flaming Weapon can help offset their naturaly suckiness at being a Fighter.
Fair enough. But saying they need flaming weapons just to function? They may not be the best fighters, but they still function and play good without them. Of course it's playing against archetype, but so what? If you want the optimized fighter you won't be playing tiefling anyway, I guess. So I repeat - No class need magic items just to function.
B) Not every class needs items, but plenty of perfectly good, fun, enjoyable, game enhancing, and thematic character concepts do, such as, again, any weapon using elementally themed character. taking choice of items away from characters removes these item dependant character concepts from the game.
Tidbit @37:28: All Builds moving forward will have "Classes Only" unlevelled stuff of some sort.
i dont really like this part
Are you sure of the time @37:28 ?
I am being quoted here by frothsof. I think it is for Part 1 of the Design/Development seminar on The Tome Show. (Not one of the Preview shows.)
...And as mellored stated, this does not seem like a big deal to me. Think of it as a class feature that scales, only instead of just a number increasing (1 --> 2), it's options increasing.
Essentials is all about getting in NEW PLAYERS into the game, especially pre-teens to teens.
Essentials is all about getting PLAYERS WHO HAVE NEVER PLAYED 4E into the game. This includes curious 13-year olds as well as skeptical 31-year olds. Why would WotC put design elements (Mage Schools) and such from previous editions into Essentials if new people wouldn't know/appreciate what these elements were in the first place?
After a victorious encounter with Scaldis, Faro, and its minions... taking an extended rest... listening to both Preview Podcasts (Thank you, The Tome Show!)... and then talking with The Captain... I am less bitter about the release schedule. It's full of products I'll never buy, created using design decisions I'd never consider seriously, toward ends I'll never appreciate.
BUT! Some other people seem pleased. I don't wanna rain on their parade. I'll try to keep the snarkiness under control, so if y'all bother to read my comments, it won't dampen the obvious enthusiasm some folks have.
AND! I do like Essentials (from what I've seen). Some of the more generic products do seem worth a gander. I can DDI/Compendium everything else I'm curious about.
If any of y'all are hearing impaired or deaf, I am willing to make a VERY general transcript of the two TTS Preview podcasts.
And another tidbit I haven't seen recorded: Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium (Which Bill S cannot pronounce properly... "Mordenkainian"?) will have character options for [as an example] "fighters who want to specialize in a type of weapon" according to the podcast, as well as including new weapons. Time: 47:37 on Preview Podacast one.
And another thing: Their margins on fiction (or the demand for fiction... or both) must be huge. Fiction Fiction Fiction.
I am really liking the line of products they announced
just a note about Mage school, I think they will be very different from what was a mage school in older edition (think how dominion worked back then and how they work now), they seem more a new tool to characterize mage character with just an hint to nostalgia factor
from what we have seen (very little) mage school give you additional spells/cool thing
in fact you get Apprentice Mage (1st), then again Apprentice Mage (4th) (different school?) then Expert mage (5ht), and again Expert Mage (8th) then Master Mage (10th).... and I bet for an Archmage entry in the epic tier
so it look just a wink to old player and a totally new mechanics for schools....
Nice stuff here:
critical-hits.com/2010/08/07/gen-con-201...
But some of it I don't know if I believe, if only because it's hard for us to get a straight story right now.
"Common and uncommon items can be bought and created by characters. Rare items can only be given out by a DM. Most items already in existence are going to be retroactively classified as Uncommon, and almost all items going forward in new books will be Rare." But some other stuff says Player's only make commons.
. . .
I count ~9+ products that contain cards from today until the end of the preview window (~Q4 2011).
Don't forget the possiblity of item rarity being a lead up to Magic Item Card boosters for determining random loot. Afterall, nothing says random like shuffling a deck of loot cards. You don't have to collect them either, unless you ever want the new magic items.
Wow that would piss me off SO badly...
So it looks like the avenue for introducing new items to the game is still books. So complaining about magic item booster packs really is just yelling at an empty room at this point.
Nice stuff here:
critical-hits.com/2010/08/07/gen-con-201...
But some of it I don't know if I believe, if only because it's hard for us to get a straight story right now.
"Common and uncommon items can be bought and created by characters. Rare items can only be given out by a DM. Most items already in existence are going to be retroactively classified as Uncommon, and almost all items going forward in new books will be Rare." But some other stuff says Player's only make commons.
. . .
I count ~9+ products that contain cards from today until the end of the preview window (~Q4 2011).
Don't forget the possiblity of item rarity being a lead up to Magic Item Card boosters for determining random loot. Afterall, nothing says random like shuffling a deck of loot cards. You don't have to collect them either, unless you ever want the new magic items.
Wow that would piss me off SO badly...
I don't see it. IMO it seems like they basicly said ""consumables = common" magic = uncommon" "artifacts = rare". And came up with a new system for distributing them. I mean the parcel system worrks, but it certainly has room for improvement.
In any event, there's enough flipping out over things that actually are or at least might be happening that flipping out over things that aren't even on the radar is probably best saved for a later time.
erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">the rumor that PCs would no longer be able to craft most of the items they currently can, which thankfully is looking to be false last I chacked
The veracity of that one depends upon how you define 'most'. The majority of existing magic items are going to be designated as 'uncommon'. The Enchant Magic Item ritual cannot be used to create uncommon items.
At least assuming whoever (Mearls I think?) was saying that in the seminar didn't simply mis-speak. But if we start assuming the words that actually come out of the senior designers' mouths in an official seminar are unreliable, then it's pointless discussing any of this.
I can understand "Vecna´s eye" is rare...
I don't think the 'rare' category is for artefacts like the Eye of Vecna. I think they will remain their own category. Rare items are more likely to be, say, a type of magic sword of which only the original matched set of twelve were ever made, and half of them have been lost or destroyed. Uncommon might be something like a Staff of the Traveller - there are several of them in the world, but they're significantly more powerful and specialised than a simple +X weapon. Common items will probably be consumables and regular +X items (and maybe some of the more generic enchantments like Flaming Weapons).
but about background... how are uncommon magic item created, by PnCs?
No, by the DM. ;)
I suspect the answer will turn out to be "specialised enchanters who are spending all their time researching new items rather than going down holes, killing things and taking their stuff like you lot". PCs are adventurers, not craftsmen who do a bit of adventuring on the side. I think WotC wants to push us back to that paradigm, where rituals are to be used to advance the plot of the campaign, not as something you do in a six-month downtime period as a part of building unstoppable uber-characters for the next tier.
Uncommon item are created by crafstmen PnCs... but PCs can´t be craftmen. Are they?
Would "Weapons of Legacy" be a example of rare magic item?
I think that's the kind of thing we can expect to see appearing as rare items, yes. We're into speculation territory here, though.
Uncommon item are created by crafstmen PnCs... but PCs can´t be craftmen. Are they?
A DM will always be free to allow a PC to create a specific uncommon (or even rare) item. It just won't be a standard use of the Enchant Magic Item ritual. If the party wizard wants to create an uncommon item, the DM might set up a mini-quest to acquire the necessary knowledge or components, for example. Or he may introduce an enchanter/crafter NPC who happens to know how to make the item in question and will do so in return for a favour (like sabotaging the research attempts of her rival, for example).
The impression I get is that WotC wants to put control over magic items back into the hands of the DM, rather than players feeling like they have an automatic right to find/buy/create absolutely any item or combination of items that exists.
Creating common items is standard, everyday and rather boring utility magic. If you want a specific uncommon or rare item, that's a potential plot hook.
Actually, according to the notes from Critical Hits (under Mordenkenian’s Magical Emporium), Common and Uncommon items can be purchased and created by PCs, while Rare items are only given out by DM fiat.
And, as I've said elsewhere, Dave misheard some things. I suggest listening to the audio recordings of the seminars, rather than relying on his memory (or my memory, for that matter!)
Would "Weapons of Legacy" be a example of rare magic item?
Personally I think Weapons of Legacy(at least from what I recall of them from 3.X) would be best represented as artifacts in 4ed. Just add a special rule for them that they can't have concordance over a certain point if you aren't X level and then have each of their powered up states be achieved when they reach higher concordance.
And, as I've said elsewhere, Dave misheard some things. I suggest listening to the audio recordings of the seminars, rather than relying on his memory (or my memory, for that matter!)
O_O Okay if what you are saying is true, I definatly want to look at listen to that portion. Do you remember which podcast that is in and roughly when in the podcast it is by any chance?
O_O Okay if what you are saying is true, I definatly want to look at listen to that portion. Do you remember which podcast that is in and roughly when in the podcast it is by any chance?
Around 00:49:35 in part 1 in the Wotc upcoming products seminar.
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
1) Common and Uncommon items can be bought and created, while Rare items can not. This provides no distinction between Common and Uncommon items.
2) Common items can be bought and created, while Uncommon and Rare items can not. This provides no distinction between Uncommon and Rare items.
I think the designer (can't remember either if it was Mike or Bill) got it wrong too. What makes logical sense to me would be:
3) Common items can be bought and created. Uncommon items can be created, but not bought. Rare items can not be bought or created.
I hope to hear clarification on this soon, but I fear we will have to wait for the upcoming article later this month.
O_O Okay if what you are saying is true, I definatly want to look at listen to that portion. Do you remember which podcast that is in and roughly when in the podcast it is by any chance?
This one. They're talking about the new magic item system from about the 47 minute mark.
At the 50-51 minute mark (right after the bit about rare items), we hear this: "For the most part, that rule about not being able to create it or buy it is also going to apply to uncommon items. Uncommon items are going to be the purview of the Dungeon Master."
And, BTW, darn you for making me listen through all that again.
;)EDIT: Ninja'd!
Around 00:49:35 in part 1 in the Wotc upcoming products seminar.
thetome.podbean.com/2010/08/07/tome-genc...
Thank you very kindly.
We keep hearing two different things that don't make sense:
1) Common and Uncommon items can be bought and created, while Rare items can not. This provides no distinction between Common and Uncommon items.
2) Common items can be bought and created, while Uncommon and Rare items can not. This provides no distinction between Uncommon and Rare items.
I think the designer (can't remember either if it was Mike or Bill) got it wrong too. What makes logical sense to me would be:
3) Common items can be bought and created. Uncommon items can be created, but not bought. Rare items can not be bought or created.
I hope to hear clarification on this soon, but I fear we will have to wait for the upcoming article later this month.
Actually we have only heard one thing, number 2. One site reported number 1 but since I just listened to an audio recording on what they were reporting it is pretty clear that their notes from the seminar were wrong(which is totally understanble for multiple reasons). We have no indication WotC that number 1 or 3 are correct at all.
This one. They're talking about the new magic item system from about the 47 minute mark.
At the 50-51 minute mark (right after the bit about rare items), we hear this: "For the most part, that rule about not being able to create it or buy it is also going to apply to uncommon items. Uncommon items are going to be the purview of the Dungeon Master."
And, BTW, darn you for making me listen through all that again.
EDIT: Ninja'd!
Also thank you. My apologies for making you listen through it again.
And now my thoughts, wow that is horrible. When I thought you could still make uncommon I thought it was a pointless change, but this this is stupid also. I guess I need to go and inform my DM that what I told him yesterday was incorrect. I'm sure it will make his day(sarcasm btw, he dislikes the changes also).
Also if the haunted armor is a good example of the kind of rare magic item fluff we'll be getting then.....wow even rare items are going to be weak sauce.
THE RARITY SYSTEM IS OPTIONAL.
The parcel system will still be there too.
That said, it does seem to be a way to make magic items a bit more "random" and "special". Instead of just a given. And i really do think that "artifacts = rare", (can only be given with a DM fiat). I'm not sure where the split between common and uncommon come in.
Guessing: The new cards are just a random selection of items from the book. Since your "not suppossed to build a deck" and you're supposed to just unwrap a pack, shuffle, and blindly pull random loot without anyone knowing what it is.
Actually we have only heard one thing, number 2. One site reported number 1 but since I just listened to an audio recording on what they were reporting it is pretty clear that their notes from the seminar were wrong(which is totally understanble for multiple reasons). We have no indication WotC that number 1 or 3 are correct at all.
I still think that Mike may have been mistaken. I've heard people announce things incorrectly before when in front of an excited audience. I've done it myself. Unless I'm missing something, the reasoning still stands that #2 is logically flawed since it means uncommon and rare items are not different under this option. I don't think PCs being able to sell rare items for more than uncommon ones is an interesting enough distinction to separate the two.
But either way, as mellored said, it's optional.
Guessing: The new cards are just a random selection of items from the book. Since your "not suppossed to build a deck" and you're supposed to just unwrap a pack, shuffle, and blindly pull random loot without anyone knowing what it is.
Cards? Are you still talking about magic items? If so, there aren't any magic item cards coming out. There are fortune cards, a Deck of Many Things and the despair deck from the Shadowfell boxed set, but no random magic item cards. There is a new magic item book coming out called Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium which serves as Adventurer's Vault 3, though. I think you might have gotten the fortune cards (the only random cards we know about) confused with the common/uncommon/rare categorization of magic items and the optional rule for DMs in the Rules Compendium which will allow magic items to be distributed by rolling on random charts.
I think you might have gotten the fortune cards (the only random cards we know about) confused with the common/uncommon/rare categorization of magic items and the optional rule for DMs in the Rules Compendium which will allow magic items to be distributed by rolling on random charts.
Yes, i did. Thanks for the correction.
forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=12624068&po...Re: Item dailies - WTF?Quote: