| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1guangDec 18, 2009 6:18:26 | They are mentioned as a possible and appropriate PC in The Plane Below pg 31 |
| #2ranadielDec 18, 2009 8:51:07 | It is mentioning them in the same sentance as two confirmed PHB3 races, so the possibility does exist. However at the same time we also already have stats to play them as PCs, so the passage is hardly conclusive. |
| #3MarandahirDec 18, 2009 8:55:11 | It should also be noted that there is a Goblin Companion (Splug) in the Solo Adventure in Dragon; they might be trying to make Goblins more Player-friendly. Then again, I'm probably looking too deeply into this. |
| #4Janx_14Dec 18, 2009 10:13:11 | Splug's racial isn't modified though is it? If they were made playable I dont think the old Goblin Tactics would make it in. |
| #5jedi123Dec 18, 2009 11:12:28 | it would continue the trend of one small race per phb (halfling, then gnome), and I'd approve especially if hobgoblins came after. |
| #6Crimson_ConcertoDec 18, 2009 13:52:11 | However at the same time we also already have stats to play them as PCs... Where? And no, the back of the Monster Manual does not count. |
| #7Janx_14Dec 18, 2009 14:39:24 | The MM stats can count as playable stats as long as you have DM permission. You may not have feat support, but its still beter support for being able to play a race than no stats at all. However, having stats in the MM does not mean they will eventually get "true" playable stats. For example, unless there's a setting that really focuses on orcs, odds are they will never get true playable stats. Orcs would also be considerably changed, seeing as how they are crazily melee weapon/charge focused which goes against 4e's race design . Kenku, Deurgar, and especially Bullywugs are definitely in a similar boat. |
| #8brotherjgizmoDec 18, 2009 14:57:09 | I wouldn't mind playing a tiny smelly goblin. |
| #9KoboldAvengerDec 18, 2009 20:09:15 | I wonder if Goblins become a full PC race, if it will be just Goblins, or the whole family. Because even though Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are all related, they're very different from each other. |
| #10novatackDec 18, 2009 20:55:19 | Maybe. But the developers pretty much said that they probaby weren't going to do a villain race soon, especially with the Drow coming out (which was the reason they gave for not putting the Githyanki in the PH3- it would have come too soon after the Drow). I wouldn't mind seeing the Goblins as a playable race, but it does kinda poke holes in their explanation. |
| #11KoboldAvengerDec 18, 2009 21:53:01 | Goblins have mostly been antagonists in many games, but they are far more sympathetic than Drow are. At worst they're smelly, repulsive, annoying, riotous and cowardly little creatures with a mob mentality, or at best they're the cute and quirky underdogs who happen to be the comedic relief. Hobgoblins though are a little more villainous than Goblins, as they're generally depicted as the meaner, more brutish, yet aristocratic cousins of Goblins. While they're certainly militairistic, they've sometimes been depicted as a proud warrior race with an ancient misunderstoof culture. Bugbears on the other hand, are always depicted as the brutish bullies, even in Eberron where the other two Goblin races are depicted as being less villainous. |
| #12MarandahirDec 18, 2009 23:02:39 | Goblins have mostly been antagonists in many games, but they are far more sympathetic than Drow are. At worst they're smelly, repulsive, annoying, riotous and cowardly little creatures with a mob mentality, or at best they're the cute and quirky underdogs who happen to be the comedic relief. Well, Hobgoblins are probably portrayed the worst of the three, save MAYBE in Eberron. Hobgoblins have been said to have forcefully bred Half-Orcs from Orcish and goblin-men... err, Human stock, at least in some origin myths. Hobgoblins are usually portrayed as a cruel, Evil warrior-race, rather than the proud, Chaotic Evil warrior-race. |
| #13SamrinDec 19, 2009 2:45:31 | No goblins. Kobolds first! |
| #14WerTwistDec 19, 2009 2:50:41 | No goblins. Kobolds first! Amen to that! |
| #15guangDec 19, 2009 4:42:05 | No goblins. Kobolds first! Seconded! |
| #16MarandahirDec 19, 2009 8:17:28 | Kobolds are difficult and WotC said they'd take a while before they introduce PC Kobolds – they implied "not in the PH3." |
| #17LordofKhyberDec 19, 2009 15:49:57 | Well since the PHB3 does have a psionic theme and well Goblins have a history (even if a small one) of having psionic goblins...I wouldn't be surprised. Plus Goblins are coming out as a playable race in WoW in the next expansion so WoTC might try to grab into that popularity. |
| #18jedi123Dec 19, 2009 17:56:37 |
Um...the PHB 3 probably was underway when the goblin was announced for WoW, could they have added it? Possibly but it's a big stretch. |
| #19celticmuttDec 19, 2009 18:29:54 | As much as I'd love for the Goblinoids (all of them) to be in, sadly only one could appear. However, I really don't want another small race. Not because I hate small races, but because I hate this assumed "need" to have one small race in every PHB. So I'm really hoping there is no small race in PHB3. |
| #20ShroomyDec 19, 2009 19:53:39 | You know, I just breezed past that passage this morning without really noticing it, but now that it has been pointed out, I have to say, of all the PHB3 racial speculation that I've read, I put this one up there, probably above the gnoll picture in AV2. Still not sure that either is likely. |
| #21Crimson_ConcertoDec 20, 2009 3:10:28 | I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. |
| #22Duke5150Dec 20, 2009 6:40:07 | I invite everyone here to read the stoneteller trilogy (dragonlance) if you'd like a great goblin story. It also features hobgoblins that break the stereotype. Really, a damn good trilogy. Got me interested in goblins again.I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. Depending on the setting, they can be excellent crafters, powerful primal shamans, master assassins, fierce warriors, loyal allies and sometimes, even terrifying foes. |
| #23jedi123Dec 20, 2009 8:48:14 | I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. I know for me it mostly is due to the Goblins being a major race in my favorite setting (Eberron), and it's be nice to have official stats for the goblins and hobgoblins atleast. |
| #24sallaDec 20, 2009 10:58:17 | I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. Humor value. As Magic: The Gathering has demonstrated multiple times, Goblins can be funny. At any rate, I'm sure just about every player or DM asks that question about at least one race. Me? I can't see why people would want to play elves or dwarves, but there you go. People have different tastes and interests. |
| #25WerTwistDec 20, 2009 11:01:24 | Kobolds are difficult and WotC said they'd take a while before they introduce PC Kobolds – they implied "not in the PH3." Could you elaborate on the bolded part? Are you refering to the Shifty At-Will? If yes, then I don't believe WotC thinks it's difficult, as they have implemented the same mechanic into the Seeker class (Bloodbond). |
| #26sallaDec 20, 2009 11:06:15 | Kobolds are difficult and WotC said they'd take a while before they introduce PC Kobolds – they implied "not in the PH3." Not quite. The Seeker ability only works in light armor, plus it's a class ability, so you don't have to worry as much about how it interacts with class abilities (as you would if it were a racial ability). |
| #27WerTwistDec 20, 2009 11:16:43 |
Sure, but mechanically it's the same (shift as minor action), which I personally don't feel is problematic, having played Kobolds on both sides of the screen. |
| #28MarandahirDec 20, 2009 16:38:40 |
WotC has said AT LEAST ONCE that Shifty is too good an a racial power. They're working out how to fix it without making it too weak, however – they said that as it is, it's too powerful, but if they weaken it, it'll be nerfed, and thus for now we get nothing (because, as you know, it's nerf or nothing...) They said that we won't be seeing them anytime soon, but that Kobolds are popular enough that they plan to eventually open them up as PC options. |
| #29anubis_reynardDec 20, 2009 23:42:44 |
Kobold Artful Dodger with Reckless Scramble and Mark of Passage. |
| #30WerTwistDec 21, 2009 2:41:35 |
Well the Artful Dodger already has quite a few powers to shift/move, so Shifty (in my eyes) doesn't really add that much. Mark of Passage... well for me it doesn't present a bigger problem with Shifty than it does with Bloodbond. But I think we've derailed the thread far enough. ;) |
| #31anubis_reynardDec 21, 2009 3:30:08 | Personally, I find it unlikely that any race will be approved that has (in it's final form) an at-will power that has a minor action or immidiate action trigger- these conflict too much with class abilities, making swordmage marks or warlock curses prevent the use of the very abilities you chose your race for. |
| #32aliothefoolDec 21, 2009 5:25:09 | I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. If you replace the word "Kobold" for the word "Goblin" in what you wrote, it would be exactly the same thing I would write. I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. And I agree here. I can't stand elves or dwarves. I played an eladrin wizard, but that was solely for the sword replacing my wand, and the ability score bonuses. Otherwise, it felt...dirty... Anyway, count me as an emphatic vote for Goblins as a fully constructed PC race. I'd much prefer a gobbie over a drow. |
| #33MarandahirDec 21, 2009 15:09:33 | I still don't even understand the appeal of Goblins or even goblinoid races in general. I mean, do they have any redeeming factors at all? What do they even do besides smell bad and be ugly? I'm not asking to insult the people who like them; I'm just wondering what in the world it is that you people see in them as desirable. Kobolds are humorous too. And D&D has historically gave a lot of humour to them. Though currently the Slaadi are getting similar humorous elements from The Plane Below, and we don't want THEM as a Player race. Probably because Goblins and Kobolds are weak and funny, while Slaadi are like the Joker – funny, but absolutely impossible to predict and terrifying because of it. You can at least reason with or scare a Goblin or a Kobold into doing what you want them to. Players like these sorts of races. It seems that Goblins and Kobolds have undergone villain decay since their initial debut long ago, since they were sort of supposed to be low-level scary. Now they're low level fodder that you laugh at. And villain decay means you're ripe for the picking as a PC race. Remember, in Dark Sun Halflings are bloodthirsty savages. There are a lot of takes on races. I doubt a player would want to be a Hafling in Dark Sun because of this. Also remember that they usually include spill-over races from the next setting in the PH book before it. Shifter were in PH2, for example. I'm not saying that Mul or Thri-Kreen are going to be the fourth race. But if Goblins have any role at all in Dark Sun (I don't know either way), that would give them credit, especially considering the Goblins of Eberron. |
| #34sallaDec 21, 2009 15:51:46 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. |
| #35MarandahirDec 21, 2009 16:47:13 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. People wanted Githyanki, but WotC specifically said that they don't want to write up them, because they're too evil, and they want to play up the racial conflict between Githzerai and Githyanki. Thus, WotC isn't going to make write-ups of any old race that players want. It needs to have a reasonable amount of Good/Lawful Good or at the very least Unaligned members of the race. Drow have a whole counter-culture, so they got a write-up, but they felt even that was a bit close to the line of evil. They don't want to cause villain decay. That said, Goblins and Kobolds have had villain decay due to humour for decades. While It's been shown they can be deliciously evil ("Our Beloved MASTER! has said honoured YOU!"), the humour has put a fork in their "solely evil" display, and the existence of Splug is another account of a reasonably alright individual. Splug is unaligned – he cares about the Player, but not much about good or evil, order or chaos. He reminds me much of Gurgi from The Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. But he's a good example of a non-evil Goblin, and there are equally fine examples in Eberron (such as in Greywall or parts of former Dhakaan). In general, they're less evil and more funny than their larger cousins, and much more likely to be heroic (and even more Hobbitish than Halflings) than Hobgoblins or Bugbears. |
| #36sallaDec 21, 2009 20:39:26 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. I think that's pretty lame reasoning, though that's largely my personal play style. Any race can produce villains, but I disregard the concept of 'villainous races'. Even if there's only one good member of a race, if a player wants to be that guy, he should be allowed. There's no reason Githyanki can't have a counter-culture, as you call it, as well. |
| #37MarandahirDec 22, 2009 0:37:20 | Well, just because a counter-culture COULD exist in your campaign doesn't mean it's accepted in the core products. That's why they gave the MM stats – so you that COULD play a good member of that race. But Drow have gotten enough love in the past that a suitable counter-culture of good Drow has come into existence. Githyanki haven't gotten the same amount of love, and too much playing that way leads pretty much all "cool" villains that are humanoid to undergo villain decay and become "good guys." |
| #38anubis_reynardDec 22, 2009 2:00:09 | Ebberon supports "grey" versions of many races commonly viewed as evil in other settings- Goblins, Gnolls, and others. Putting "Blue" goblins in the same book as Psionics has been done before. Personally, I still favor the AV2 Gnoll art, but I admit that this remains a viable possibility. |
| #39guangDec 22, 2009 2:11:56 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. It's not like they've really stuck to that though, especially in Dragon articles. Gnoll and Minotaur both are created/descended from demons. |
| #40anubis_reynardDec 22, 2009 3:52:48 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. At least according to some origin stories, anyway. There was that ancent minotaur empire, and the bit about Yeenoghu killing a god to take the gnolls away from it... |
| #41aliothefoolDec 22, 2009 5:06:57 | Eh, I look at it this way. People have different tastes and interests and reasons to pick a race for their character. Wizards isn't going to lose any money by printing the races people want full PC writeups for. If you don't like 'em, don't play 'em. This is exactly how I feel. Everyone has different tastes. WotC giving everyone more choices only helps them sell more material to more people. I'll never play a gnome, but I know people who do. I'd love to play a gnoll, but I'm not sure anyone in my group would. |
| #42quexulDec 26, 2009 22:45:44 | I think if there is a demand we will eventually see a full write up. A couple of points though: 1. Goblins are on the horizon in WoW. (yes I brought it up) The question is: How does this effect WotC decision making? Do they put it in because there will be a demand? WoW players are a great place for D&D to harvest new players. Or do they not put Goblins in because they want to distinguish themselves from WoW. 2. WotC is looking to create new races that give D&D its own identity. That is at least how I see it. Tieflings, Dragonborn, Devas and Wilden are examples of this. So, if WotC want a small psionic character I would guess that they would go with the Dromite instead of a goblin. 3. I think that both Kobolds and Goblins are super-cool. I played a Kobold character named Ikric'Kric back in 2e. I'm sure that we will be a full write up of at least one of them by PHB4. You can play them now though, back of the MM. I don't really understand the resistance in using the brief write ups. I love that WotC is taking game balance seriously, but as long as it doesn't get in the way of having fun. 4. The evil race question. Good storytelling has complicated characters in conflict because of opposing goals, not because of good guy bad guy stuff. Having said that: I understand their motivation. Is there a DM that never had to deal with a player that pretty much wanted to play an undead assassin version of Jeffrey Dahmer? The point I think is to find some room for the good guys. I would have made the same stats for Githyanki and Githzerai and simply called them Gith. (that is another thread I imagine) 5. I love that we are getting so many different player options. (I just wish I could be a player more, I'm always the DM) I hope there is a PHB every year. |
| #43ah_stormbringerDec 27, 2009 8:58:57 | I would agree that Wow is a great place for D&D to get new players from. I also think that you will see goblin and kobald write in the future. Will it be in PHB3 I would say no but anything could happen. |
| #44dannoeJan 02, 2010 15:19:13 | I think if there is a demand we will eventually see a full write up. A couple of points though Me too. Nobody with any brains is gonna leave money on the table. 1. Goblins are on the horizon in WoW. (yes I brought it up) The question is: How does this effect WotC decision making? Do they put it in because there will be a demand? WoW players are a great place for D&D to harvest new players. Or do they not put Goblins in because they want to distinguish themselves from WoW. I think that makes it more likely. Because, bottom line, you poach customers where you can. 2. WotC is looking to create new races that give D&D its own identity. That is at least how I see it. Tieflings, Dragonborn, Devas and Wilden are examples of this. So, if WotC want a small psionic character I would guess that they would go with the Dromite instead of a goblin. Insert "trademark" and "copyright" and I agree completely. The problem that WotC has is that the whole game is based on an iconic set of books and ideas that are exist in the public domain. So they need to develop intellectual property that they can own--to keep people from just poaching their stuff wholesale. 3. I think that both Kobolds and Goblins are super-cool. I played a Kobold character named Ikric'Kric back in 2e. I'm sure that we will be a full write up of at least one of them by PHB4. You can play them now though, back of the MM. I don't really understand the resistance in using the brief write ups. I love that WotC is taking game balance seriously, but as long as it doesn't get in the way of having fun. I LOVE playing goblins. And drow. And gnolls. And plain old bad PEOPLE. Why? Because in real life I'm a clean-living, thoroughly upstanding husband and father of 2. I didn't even go out for New Years. So yeah, I like to play monsters in my D&D. And when I play them, I want to wreak freakin' havoc. Reward the guilty and slay and enslave the innocent. Because I can, and no one gets hurt. That works for me. Bottom line, if I wanted to play MYSELF, I wouldn't play at all. |