I have a plot involving Vecna and would love to have the players go toe to toe once they reach level 30.
We already have one or two, including Tiamat in Draconomicon, I believe. I also think Vecna has been statted in Open Grave.
Perfect! You are right. Vecna is in open grave.
Thanks for making me read the book I bought. Lol
but not Bane himself.
The answer given in the respectice article's discussion thread over at the Dragon boards was that Bane would just be too powerfull for level 30 PCs to fight. They could have set him as a level 38 solo soldier or something like this, but since these stats would be useless for anything but TPK they decided against including them. Seems that level 35 solo is the limit that WotC deems surviveable for level 30 PCs and that limits stats to lesser gods.
However that was before the expertise feats and the MM2 lowering solo defenses by -2. So that's basically a +5 hit chance difference which would make a level 38 solo as hard to hit now as a level 33 solo was back then (and make expertise mandatory indeed for characters planning on taking on such a foe), and even a level 40 solo now would be only just as hard to hit as a level 35 solo back then .
Of course there's still the problem with the hit chance and damage of a level 38 solo and it's hp (although these also have been lowered by 20% with the MM2).
I think the stating of the gods should have ended. Everything out there shouldn't be fair game.
There've been god-stats in every edition. They've ALWAYS been fair game, even if they were statted too high to see use in play (were you really going to fight Gods in 3.5E?) At least in this edition, if they're going to stat Gods, that means that it's possible to whack them and take their stuff.
By giving stats for gods, WoTC is simply giving the option. In your campaign they may be unkillable, so it doesn't matter if they have stats. But in another they may be, so it is good thing to have stats for them.
I don't think the gods should be statted (or rather, I find it unnecessary and a waste) because they are... well, they are the gods! They should be so powerful as to be beyond the scope of the game.
That misses the point of both epic destinies and much of the Points of Light setting. Divine types are just one of the great powers, and by no means the strongest of them even when they act in unison, which is rare enough. They were barely beating the primordials when they were both kicked out of the natural world by the primal spirits, and they certainly aren't any more powerful (and probably less so) than the greatest of the Far Realm horrors. Gods die in the backstory fluff, there's no good reason the PCs can't accomplish the same feat.
By the end of most ED's, many PCs are arguably more durable (if not more dangerous) than any deity, or demon prince, or primordial. If you don't like that sort of thing, you're going to find endgame epic tier really annoying.
Second: If you want to keep the roster of gods set to a low, then giving them stats is not a good idea. You will have every mortal out there becoming a god.
Third: When one god sees another god go down because of a group of adventurers then the other gods are going to band together and take them out.
Fourth: The gods preserve the balance. Evil deities have just as much right to be there as good deities. You can't have one without the other.
These are my opinions of course, but the fact of the matter is it's better to level the gods without stats.
That misses the point of both epic destinies and much of the Points of Light setting. Divine types are just one of the great powers, and by no means the strongest of them even when they act in unison, which is rare enough. They were barely beating the primordials when they were both kicked out of the natural world by the primal spirits, and they certainly aren't any more powerful (and probably less so) than the greatest of the Far Realm horrors. Gods die in the backstory fluff, there's no good reason the PCs can't accomplish the same feat.
By the end of most ED's, many PCs are arguably more durable (if not more dangerous) than any deity, or demon prince, or primordial. If you don't like that sort of thing, you're going to find endgame epic tier really annoying.
So what else is new? I find a lot of what 4th edition does annoying, I'm truly not surprised.
The cool thing about being able to fight/defeat/kill the gods, is that it opens up more play options for level 30 characters. Instead of just saying "Oh, level 30, npc time" we can now have epic godly campaigns where we fight to become the supreme god of dnd or some B rate idea like that.
Although when I read a god is only level 30-35, I chuckle. 4e gods are weaklings. Also if anyone playing a Bard ever kills a god. Please post how it went down so I can ROFL while drinking my brew. That would be epic.
Seriously, a bard!:P
You know what I think would be awesome? An evil campaign where the PCs eventual goal would be to usurp the position of several evil gods in the pantheon.
Taking down an evil god could be a good endgame for some campaigns, which is what the stats are for.
You know what I think would be awesome? An evil campaign where the PCs eventual goal would be to usurp the position of several evil gods in the pantheon.
Like Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul did? That's been run into the dirt.
There's nothing wrong with the gods being unkillable, unfathomable beings in your campaign. If you don't want the gods to have stats in your games it's your right to ignore those stats and play the game you want.
However that doesn't mean you should take offense at 2 pages in a book or dragon/dungeon article being used to provide stats for those who do want stats for gods. There are some entries in the MM I doubt I'll ever use, more in Open Grave and MotP both of which I own. Does this mean I get to complain about them being there and call it a waste? No. Because others will. Just because Wizards print it doesn't force you to use it.
Just my two pennys.
Like Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul did? That's been run into the dirt.
Never heard of the other 2, and Bane was a god from the outset (at least in standard POL Cosmology).
And so what if the idea's been run into the dirt? If the DM and PCs like it, isn't that enough?
This would also cause me to feel even more strongly about the video game feel that I see in 4th edition. Well, you have cleared out all the minions and the mini-bosses, now it's time to go to the next level and take out the main boss then it's game over time. So you hit your reset button, choose another class, race etc.. and set out to kill more things rack up those points and see where you get this time.
Of course this is just my opinion.
Never heard of the other 2, and Bane was a god from the outset (at least in standard POL Cosmology).
And so what if the idea's been run into the dirt? If the DM and PCs like it, isn't that enough?
All three are from Forgotten Realms. They were all evil and set out to become deities which they eventually became.
Giving the gods stats, in my opinion, is doing the same thing that 3rd edition did which I actually didn't like. Your character became so powerful that you had to break out the Powers and Pantheons book and just go down the list, or came up with god like monsters, with no storyline, just so the PC's could be challenged.
Out of curiosity, how is this different than any other edition of D&D? It's been that way since Basic, and I don't see them changing it in the future.
Out of curiosity, how is this different than any other edition of D&D? It's been that way since Basic, and I don't see them changing it in the future.
I have never liked the gods having stats. Avatars are fine but the actual deity in my opinion should never have had stats. I was never a fan of this in any edition.
That said, there are those like me who would like to bring the smackdown to the deities, and we should have the chance to do so. Such a thing shouldn't be trivial, of course; in one super-adventure primed from levels 1-30, you might probably end up just slaying one god/goddess. And XunValDorl of HouseKilsek's right; after a certain level, a targeted deity will do the Vlaakith and try to kill the PC's before they reach the apex.
But even the gods are not the centers of a campaign, the players are. And I think that if the players want to take that direction, there should be a viable (if very difficult) path to take. here are some ideas off the top of my head:
*The deities, for all their power and knowledge, have usually been portrayed as vain and arrogant. They'll likely think that an aspect could do the job well enough, especially if aided by exarchs/minions/worshippers.
*By the time the deities see them as a threat, the risk of trying to axe them could be too high. The deities are at their strongest in their astral dominions; killing every upstart might be child's play, but their omniscience could be diminished in the outside world, making them susceptible to assassin deities or something to that effect.
*There could be a ban that prevents deities from directly interfering in mortal affairs. Thebest they could do is wait it out while his/her worshippers try their best to axe the party.
*Note that in the Lich Queen's Beloved, even careful Vlaakith was eventually killed by a bunch of adventurers. This was because the slayers were not githyanki, and she was unable to consume them in time. Similarly, the epic adventurers could be outside the gods immediate sphere of influence, and might not have been able to realize the existence of the PC's until they were too dangerous to snuff out with a strike.
Now, say a group of mortals do slay a deity (are they even mortals anymore? Epic characters are demigods/Dukes of Hell/avatars of gods themselves). This does not mean that a similar group of adventurers will see the potential and try to kill as many as possible. Very few characters in a campaign world are that strong. The godslayers could be the only current ones, in fact, and generations could pass before mortals such as those arise again.
And don't worry about balance; new gods could always come up to replace them. Mystryl died and Mytra ascended in her place (from a certain PoV, they're the same deity, but the gist is there). In 4E, the Raven Queen rose up when Nerull was no more. It might be cliche, but doesn't cliche mean it's doable?
To conclude, if a player/DM doesn't like the idea of god-slaying, then there will always be reasons for them to justify how silly the idea is. Likewise, if you're like me who think it is within the realm of possibility, then we'll find ways to make it doable, as I did above. But to these people, I still advise them to not let it happen lightly. I find that killing a god is more worthwhile over the course of a few months than it is when you make level 30 characters and decide to duke it out in the first gaming night.
Giving the gods stats, in my opinion, is doing the same thing that 3rd edition did which I actually didn't like. Your character became so powerful that you had to break out the Powers and Pantheons book and just go down the list, or came up with god like monsters, with no storyline, just so the PC's could be challenged.
giving gods stats only makes it possible for your character to become that powerful. It in no way means that you have to play that far. Sure if you keep playing to the point where you've leveled up so much that the only challeges in printed books are gods then yes that'll happen. But if you don't like that why play up to that level? Why not just stop once you've told the story you want? Or when you reach a level you feel is a good cap.
This would also cause me to feel even more strongly about the video game feel that I see in 4th edition. Well, you have cleared out all the minions and the mini-bosses, now it's time to go to the next level and take out the main boss then it's game over time.
Only if your GM (or you if you are the GM) runs it that way. The most common set up for fantasy adventure is fighting your way through enemies ( the minions mentioned in your post) while facing the occasional more formidable foe (mini-bosses mentioned in your post) before finally facing of against the main villian.
Are you complaing about ending and adventure/campaign with a climactic fight against the villian? Yes that happens in video games. It also happens in books, movies and D&D (and this has been the case long before 4th edition in my experience. Sure if you boil it down into it's simplest form and ignore the plot it'll be like a video game. It's up to the GM to provide the plot that makes the game it's own. And if you don't like this set up end it differently. Finish up with a long disscusion between PCs and NPCs instead of a fight if that's what you'd rather.
So you hit your reset button, choose another class, race etc.. and set out to kill more things rack up those points and see where you get this time.
Eh? What would you rather do when you finish a campaign? By finishing a campaign I mean reaching the point where the DM has finished the story. Seems valid to start a new campaign and tell a new story to me. If you want to have new story with the same characters then they're likely to grow more powerful and you're back to your original dislike of characters growing too powerful. Killing things and gaining more experience is not unique to 4e. You still have to put a story over the mechanics to get the game you want. That's not changed.
Of course this is just my opinion.
True. You are welcome to stick to it. Of course if you're stating your opinion I thought I'd state mine.
To me, it is very much like the Greek mythology I adore, one in which near-demigod mortals like Hercules can actually challenge deities (Oh, funny story? Demigod epic destiny on the same tier as eventually challenging gods. Amazing coincidence, no?), or the gods themselves can face off against monsters, titans, and other powerful forces.
Ultimately, this makes gods....human.
It sounds really foolish, yes. But ponder this; should deities of particular aspects be Big Cosmic Forces Beyond Comprehension?
If the god of magic and the god of winter and the god of fire and the god of time and the god of things stuck in drawers can all do incredible miracles, know the future, and smite anyone they wish....then either the world should be torn apart instantly, or the balance is so delicate that no deity can act, because the opposite god opposes him/her/it/them perfectly.
Meanwhile, if gods are actually capable of error, have faults, whims, personalities, and preferences, if they are brought down a peg, they can be far more interesting. What would Bahamut be without his unwavering quest to defeat Tiamat? If the PCs are Big Damn Heroes and have the capacity to knock over She of the Five Heads and Fiery Temper, then why wouldn't the good gods support them?
Meanwhile, what's the damn point of saying each god is nigh-omnipotent? If they are all opposed, then they are constantly providing equal and opposite forces, thus negating the whole damn thing. The best the setting has to offer, then, is stagnation; there will always be the good and the evil and all the other little pairings, which each side never really winning, so the 30th level PCs might as well kick up their feet and retire, because they can't Change The World.
Unknowable, indescribable, beyond-comprehension balance be damned. If the PCs are fully ascended demigods, lords of fate, keepers of the faerie realm, or parables rewriting reality itself, they've earned the right to stand toe-to-toe with the Big Boys.
So on with the stats! I, for one, want to give Lloth a damn good smacking, kick Torag in the ball-and-chains, and pull Zehir's tail.
And hit on Ioun, but that's another story. Mmm....smexy divine librarians....
If the Lady of Pain is ever statted, that'll be a clear sign it's no longer D&D. :D ;) :P
Shh, don't give them ideas!DMG2 will have Sigil, after all! >.>
I also cant wait till Lolth is statted out. :D
That being said, I'm all for statting D&D deities (even if they wanna call it an avatar). I don't actually plan to go toe-to-toe with Vecna but I can't deny getting a real kick outta seeing the stats anyway. This is D&D: "If it has stats, it can be killed". One reason why they never statted the Lady of Pain (and never will-- Rrright ;)?!)
IMHO When they do stat deities it should be not so much for the geekgasm in seeing the stats themselves but for the possibility that the PCs might actually face down the god. One reason I'm glad that stats for Bane weren't included in the Dragon article, since his power is apparently beyond mortals. Seeing the stats would have been purely for the geekgasm.
I really like the approach taken with statting gods now. "Put simply, deities break the rules" as noted on page 244 of Draconomicon I. Gods are epic threats, they can't even be touched by non-epic beings. Last but not least, gods discorporate when bloodied (unless specific conditions have been met beforehand).
D&D deities may not be beatable (let alone killable) by most mortals but their stats sure are fun I think ;).
Personally I prefer extremes in my own game settings. Most of the time I like fantasy settings where the gods are distant, remote, incomprehensible, and unprovable. I like the game to not give an explicit answer on whether gods work directly in the world, or even if they exist at all. In these settings I like to deal with beliefs more then gods. Group A may argue one god is supreme, group B may argue another, and group C may argue there are no gods at all but the setting itself never gives an answer. If their is divine power available in the world, its source in these settings is ambiguous at best. Eberron is a D&D example of this kind of setting. Most of my homebrew settings and games throughout the years have used this model.
On the other hand, if the gods are absolutely known to exist in a setting and if they directly and obviously interact with the world I want my gods to be statted and fought by PCs. I don't like the idea of plopping down beings with agendas in my game worlds and having them run around affecting things without letting the PCs have a chance to do anything about it! This style of god shouldn't be week, but they should have limits and vulnerabilities. I much prefer the first style, but if I am dealing with a defined proven list of gods I want to use the latter style.
Ergo it makes perfect sense for the gods to be statted; by the time the PC's have reached the end of Epic Tier they are in fact nearly gods themselves.
Of course, just because the gods have stats doesn't mean you have to put them into your game; and so far all the true gods have fancy 'You can't kill me without a plot device' powers, so just randomly challenging Bane to a duel isn't going to get you anywhere.
There are a few reasons why the gods should not have stats. First of all, the gods are beyond mortal understanding and beyond time itself. If you want to get technical a deity could see it's into the future, see what the PC's plans are for killing him or her and kill them while they are low level.
Second: If you want to keep the roster of gods set to a low, then giving them stats is not a good idea. You will have every mortal out there becoming a god.
Third: When one god sees another god go down because of a group of adventurers then the other gods are going to band together and take them out.
Fourth: The gods preserve the balance. Evil deities have just as much right to be there as good deities. You can't have one without the other.
These are my opinions of course, but the fact of the matter is it's better to level the gods without stats.
Actually many dieties do not have true omnipotence or omniscience (otherwise they'd have no rivals what so ever because they'd wipe each other out).
Second: This point makes little if any sense, due to what it really takes to becoming a god (such as getting a large base of worshipers for a start to empower you with their faith). What wait.. do you assume that every commoner on the planet can not only gain enough power to become high level, but survive the horrors of what an adventurer deals with?
Forgot you are a 3e and according to 3eers (not even 3e itself which says Pcs are a Cut above the Norm) Pcs are all Normal. And there's a level 17 bard in every Inn.
Third: What makes you think this exactly? And who's to say other gods wouldn't simply rally around the Pcs for accomplishing their end?
Fourth: No they don't. The gods have an agenda of their own. They aren't trying to preserve some great cosmic scale. Infact most of them seem quite set to bringing down primordials more than anything.
It's not even remotely a fact actually it's a completely subjective One True Way TO PLAY AND ALL OTHERS R DUMBZ mentality.
It's actually better to stat out the gods for one reason. For the people that want characters to fight gods, the stats are there. For the people that don't they are simply disregarded.
If you don't want your gods fightable at all, simply don't let the game get to that high of a level, it's not terribly difficult to do. Many campaigns I've played in and dmned over the years ended well before 20th level.
Just because the levels say you can go that high doesn't mean that the game will go that high.
In one of my campaign worlds, there are Heroic Tier gods. Yes you read that right. They are "unkillable" in the same way Tiamat and Orcus are, where they are temporarily defeated upon being dropped. This is because not every diety is a Super Powered being, some gods are relatively weak (heroic Solos or Elites) compared to others such as the God of Mirrors, *heroic* compared to say the God of Firey Justice *epic* due to the amount of worshipers they have.
Technically anyone can ascend to god hood in said world providing they gain enough people not necessarily worshiping them but investing Faith into them or believing they are gods. The perks of which vary depending on the innate power and force of will of the being until they are reshaped into whatever ideal they are being worshiped as. Their personalities etc might change depending on what it is they are being worshiped for.
personally I like this world because it is much more dynamic than the "ZOMG GODZ PWNZ EVERTINGZ GYGAXYGYGAX MONTE!" Generic Boring Fantasy Cosmic Balance world.
I like this idea of Cpt_Micha's:
In one of my campaign worlds, there are Heroic Tier gods. Yes you read that right. They are "unkillable" in the same way Tiamat and Orcus are, where they are temporarily defeated upon being dropped. This is because not every diety is a Super Powered being, some gods are relatively weak (heroic Solos or Elites) compared to others such as the God of Mirrors, *heroic* compared to say the God of Firey Justice *epic* due to the amount of worshipers they have.
I like the idea of Heroic Teir gods for a setting like the Forgotten Realms, especially a homebrewed incarnation. I'm imagining tough-as-nails bastards with a 'know-it-all' attitude ;), taking it to the PCs. Gonna have to take that idea for a spin. Thanks for the imagery, Cpt Micha.
I don't think the gods should be statted (or rather, I find it unnecessary and a waste) because they are... well, they are the gods! They should be so powerful as to be beyond the scope of the game.
However, I don't mind them having avatars or somesuch, being able to interact with mortals and that can be fought and beaten...
IMO of course...
This is probably correct 99.5% of the time, but I played a God game of 3.5, where the characters were actually Gods, and the stated gods for 3.5 cut our DMs work load by about 80%, all told. They can be useful like, 0.5% of the time.
Some of my diety figures are like punks, and others are like wise sages and others are complete recluses. It works pretty well in my Dark Heroic Fantasy setting. I felt it was a logical extension (and a more sensible one) than having 10 million Epic+ dieties in a world.
Every now and then a powerful being will encounter such a community and end up being worshipped as a god. I guess this could be considered my own take on Heroic Tier gods mentioned above (not thought of it that way mind, I do like putting it that way).
Then comes the question of what a god actually is. As far as my setting goes the uber-powerful beings from the Astral Sea say that they are gods and nothing else is. The Huxetli tribe however say that the presence in the volcano near their settlement is also a god.
It's subjective with a different answer for each groups setting.
I think its complete cheese wizz to be able to kill a god, That said, I plan on killing every single god that is killable. Tiamat has atleast three different methods to wipe her out.
The cool thing about being able to fight/defeat/kill the gods, is that it opens up more play options for level 30 characters. Instead of just saying "Oh, level 30, npc time" we can now have epic godly campaigns where we fight to become the supreme god of dnd or some B rate idea like that.
Although when I read a god is only level 30-35, I chuckle. 4e gods are weaklings. Also if anyone playing a Bard ever kills a god. Please post how it went down so I can ROFL while drinking my brew. That would be epic.
Seriously, a bard!:P
Level 35 is for the WEAKEST of Gods. Moradin, Bane, and the like were ballparked at level 38-42, and will not be statted out as the game math makes their defeat inconceivable (not even counting the clause that they discorperate to escape on bloody without satisfying a DM set quest)
Level 35 is for the WEAKEST of Gods. Moradin, Bane, and the like were ballparked at level 38-42, and will not be statted out as the game math makes their defeat inconceivable (not even counting the clause that they discorperate to escape on bloody without satisfying a DM set quest)
If it has stats, it can be killed.
If it has stats, it can be killed.
Not if the stats include requiring 21s to be hit, meaning crit bonuses don't even happen (so no supernova), enough damage or anti-healing to stop regeneration (or strong regeneration of its own, or death effects), and immunity/autosaving to action denial effects.
Not if the stats include requiring 21s to be hit, meaning crit bonuses don't even happen (so no supernova), enough damage or anti-healing to stop regeneration (or strong regeneration of its own, or death effects), and immunity/autosaving to action denial effects.
I assure you, if it has stats, CharOp will work out how to kill it, no matter how absurd it may seem to be.
Or anytime a PC gets over level 15 the god comes down and kills them, much like the Lich Queen does when githyanki get a certain level. Eliminates the competition.
Yep. You'd have self preservation kicking in and no PC would make it past 20th level. It's probably no surprise that I'm on the sides of Gods being Gods. The only way a God will ever die in my campaign is if I plan it to happen and make a way for the PCs to win. Otherwise, they lose.
All three are from Forgotten Realms. They were all evil and set out to become deities which they eventually became.
Which I don't really have a problem with. Becoming a God isn't as hard as killing one.
*The deities, for all their power and knowledge, have usually been portrayed as vain and arrogant. They'll likely think that an aspect could do the job well enough, especially if aided by exarchs/minions/worshippers.
*By the time the deities see them as a threat, the risk of trying to axe them could be too high. The deities are at their strongest in their astral dominions; killing every upstart might be child's play, but their omniscience could be diminished in the outside world, making them susceptible to assassin deities or something to that effect.
*There could be a ban that prevents deities from directly interfering in mortal affairs. Thebest they could do is wait it out while his/her worshippers try their best to axe the party.
*Note that in the Lich Queen's Beloved, even careful Vlaakith was eventually killed by a bunch of adventurers. This was because the slayers were not githyanki, and she was unable to consume them in time. Similarly, the epic adventurers could be outside the gods immediate sphere of influence, and might not have been able to realize the existence of the PC's until they were too dangerous to snuff out with a strike.
The problem with all of this is that despite arrogance, etc., the Gods have survived for 10s of thousands of years against all comers, including epic adventurers and other threats. The Gods have seen it all. There's nothing new the 20-30 year old PCs are going to do that will take the God by surprise and enable them to win.........unless the DM stories it in as some super special one time thing. PCs, even epic ones are just not going to become God hunters.
Third: What makes you think this exactly? And who's to say other gods wouldn't simply rally around the Pcs for accomplishing their end?
Self preservation. As soon as you have Gods rallying around the PCs, other Gods, including other pantheons would rally around the God being attacked. If this sort of God hunting were allowed, then every God would be at risk and none of them want to die or give up power. What you suggest just won't happen.
Fourth: No they don't. The gods have an agenda of their own. They aren't trying to preserve some great cosmic scale. Infact most of them seem quite set to bringing down primordials more than anything.
Other agendas don't stop their portfolios. You won't see a God of Murder stop being a God of Murder just because he wants to kill primordials. You won't see a God of Justice stop being a God of Justice just because he wants to kill primordials. They balance each others as well as have their agendas.
If you don't want your gods fightable at all, simply don't let the game get to that high of a level,
Why on earth not? I can stat out a God to have 1 hit point and then make him unkillable if I want to. There's no reason to prevent PCs from going epic if a God is statted and the DM wants them to be unbeatable. You just add in a power that makes them unbeatable. It's rather simple.
The problem with all of this is that despite arrogance, etc., the Gods have survived for 10s of thousands of years against all comers, including epic adventurers and other threats. The Gods have seen it all. There's nothing new the 20-30 year old PCs are going to do that will take the God by surprise and enable them to win.........unless the DM stories it in as some super special one time thing. PCs, even epic ones are just not going to become God hunters.
That's only one style of gameplay. There are plenty of DMs and gamers who like running a campaign where the PC's aren't just doing the same things that numerous other epic level adventurers have in the past. There are plenty of storylines where the players are doing things that no one has ever done before... where they're accomplishing quests, finding artifacts, and solving mysteries that no one has succeeded at since the dawn of time. They are putting into motion events that the gods, or worse, will definately take notice of. In such a campaign, the stats of the gods are definately needed.
In the campaign I'm running right now, my PCs have fought against some very epic level threats. They recently defeated Oghma, who was attempting to recover the Axe of Erek-Hus, which the players had taken from a vault Oghma had sealed it in. They also fought and defeated Bashamgurda, the ruler of The City of Brass. The next week they'll be facing off against Tiamet, who has thrown herself into a partnership with the Primordial of Envy, who has used an ancient curse to slowly begin turning all dragons and dragonborn into half-demons. The party will ultimately have to face off against the Primordial of Envy himself, or if they choose to join Envy's side, they'll have to take down Kord.
The problem with all of this is that despite arrogance, etc., the Gods have survived for 10s of thousands of years against all comers, including epic adventurers and other threats. The Gods have seen it all. There's nothing new the 20-30 year old PCs are going to do that will take the God by surprise and enable them to win.........unless the DM stories it in as some super special one time thing. PCs, even epic ones are just not going to become God hunters.
As I've said; some people will think that it is simply impossible to kill gods, and I respect those who follow that credo in their games, and I won't force the "gods can be killed!" idea down their throats. And if I, as a player, go under a DM that doesn't believe in fighting them, I won't have qualms about it.
But at the same time, there are DM's like me who think otherwise. I don't believe that entities tens of thousands of years old have seen everything, and PCs are special enough to break any conception that the deities have come to expect from mortals. To me, they are the heroes of the story, not the gods. It is thus within the realm of possibility to slay them, in my book. To our camp, these stats that they release are gems.
As before, many people disdain and will continue to disdain godslaying as part of a last epic quest. They can always ignore the statistics and focus on telling a great story; one that does not involve dancing over the dead gods' bones. But to say that PC's just don't become god hunters is absurd, for it has happened and will happen again (just not in your game; and again, I respect that). As long as it is a good story that everyone in the table will enjoy, as long as it's not just some random idea to slay a god on a whim, then why not?
As before, many people disdain and will continue to disdain godslaying as part of a last epic quest.
I have no problem with this.....providing it's a quest that the DM set up for the PCs. My issue is with PCs going "God hunting today." If a God is going to be killed, it should be as part of a DM planned story only, not something that the PCs just decide to go do. In such a scenerio, the DM will create a story reason that these particular PCs are able to actually kill a God.
But to say that PC's just don't become god hunters is absurd, for it has happened and will happen again (just not in your game; and again, I respect that). As long as it is a good story that everyone in the table will enjoy, as long as it's not just some random idea to slay a god on a whim, then why not?
Um, PCs going out God hunting IS a random idea to slay a God on a whim. ;)
When I say "God hunting", I'm talking about the PCs saying "Hey, let's go kill Thor.", not some story driven DM plot to hunt down and kill Loki. The former is "God hunting", the latter is not.
I apologize for misinterpreting, Maxperson.
If it has stats, it can be killed.
I am hereby declaring this the PhoenixIV fallacy. It is, particularly in 4e, remarkably easy to make something that cannot be killed regardless of its level. Even the MM1 had such a creature. Allow me to point you to the Tarrasque and its Eternal Slumber ability. Sure you can take it out, temporarialy, but by RAW its impossible to kill it permanently.
Back on topic, every time I see an arguement against the stating of gods its always the same thing. A thick headed opinion heavily influenced by the christian concept of god, which in no way reflects what the "pagan" idea of a god is and certainly not the D&D god concept. In D&D gods have never been supreme all powerful all knowing beings, they are fallible and they are vunerable. People put D&D gods on a much higher pedestal than they should because of the christian ideal of god and a misguided belief that anything called a god has to be just that ungodly.
The second biggest flaw in complaints against god stats is that people greatly underestimate how powerful players actually are, particularly in epic tier. Heck in 4e I can start to become a god myself (via dimigod epic destiny) at level 21, what am I by levle 30? If I've been a dimigod for 9 levels and I can't at least go a round or two with a full greater deity I'm doing something wrong, and if I with the aid of 4 other equally powerful allies can't kill a least diety or another dimigod I'm doing something really really wrong.
Reguardless of your edition by the time your players have reached 15th level or so they should be at the point where they can put even the most exceptional of normal mortals to shame. By the time you've breached the 10th level you are no longer a normal mortal by most measure. People tend to look at D&D players and gods like the christains of the medival gothic era, with players so lowly and gods so high above them that they could never reach that level. In stark contrast the greeks believed that gods were only one step above what they termed human perfection, and certainly not at a level beyond the reach of the greatest of mortals.
I'll bring up one last point. The oldest written story, Gilgamesh involves a great mortal who was able to match the power of the gods, as far back as written history men and gods clashing was a concept grasped easly by people. It is only christianity that put such a thick border between the two and some people can't wrap their heads around ignoring or crossing that border (which in D&D and indeed anything outside christianity doesn't exist)
Ah; things are clearer now. I rarely bring up the, "English is not my first language" card, but I was under the impression that you disliked deity combat in general. But it seems that we actually share the same opinion.
I apologize for misinterpreting, Maxperson.
Heh. No worries. I had a feeling that was the case.
Actually Phoenix's quote is the LordBritishPostulate. At least, slightly modified because the British postualte is MMO specific.
The Lord British Postulate still applies because the subset of players is large enough, and for some purposes the game world is much like an MMO (for those using WotC official settings).
"If it exists as a living creature in an MMORPG, someone, somewhere, will try to kill it."
—Mike Schramm, ''WorldOfWarcraft'' Insider
I want to debate this because I disagree. As you see from the quote this is quite different from PheonixIV's statement. Now if the above quote read "If it exists as a living creature in an MMORPG it can be killed" then I agree that PheonixIV's comment would be similar. The above postulate merely states that someone will attempt to kill it regardless of whether or not it can be killed (for anyone who has played City of Heroes/Villians try killing a police/arbiter drone next time you're in a PvP zone and see how far you get). PheonixIV however stated that simply because it had stats, simply because it existed, that meant that it could be killed. As in my reference to the terrasque, or for that matter the drones in the City of Games I mentioned just above, not everything is killable (which is why its a fallacy), but someone will certainly try that I must agree with.
I am hereby declaring this the PhoenixIV fallacy. It is, particularly in 4e, remarkably easy to make something that cannot be killed regardless of its level. Even the MM1 had such a creature. Allow me to point you to the Tarrasque and its Eternal Slumber ability. Sure you can take it out, temporarialy, but by RAW its impossible to kill it permanently.
I never said anything about killing it permanently.
I never said anything about killing it permanently.
Well kill is kinda a permanent thing, forcing something to hibernate (the terrasque in this example) isn't really killing it now is it? And that aside creating something that cannot be killed wouldn't take me 5 minutes in 4e. Just because something has stats doesn't mean anything, heck if you have the fools delve, try killing Francis.
Well kill is kinda a permanent thing,
The Undead would like to disagree.
When i said kill, i suppose i should have clarified that to be 'reduced to 0 hitpoints', which for all intents and purposes is pretty much the same as killing; some things just undie later on. After all; the first rule of Munchkinism is "Any finite number can be reduced to 0."
By the way, if i recall the Tarrasque can be killed by first forcing it onto another plane, or by destroying the planet entirely.
And Francis can be killed by hitting him with an ongoing damage effect and then using an Orbizard to give him a -12 penalty to the save.
The Undead would like to disagree.
When i said kill, i suppose i should have clarified that to be 'reduced to 0 hitpoints', which for all intents and purposes is pretty much the same as killing; some things just undie later on. After all; the first rule of Munchkinism is "Any finite number can be reduced to 0."
By the way, if i recall the Tarrasque can be killed by first forcing it onto another plane, or by destroying the planet entirely.
And Francis can be killed by hitting him with an ongoing damage effect and then using an Orbizard to give him a -12 penalty to the save.
I'd like to dispute all three of those paragraphs. To the first one, it is mathematically impossible to reduce a negative number to 0 (and don't even get me started on finite fields). To the second, what you are referring to is fluff and even in that particular pice of fluff it is pointed out to be only speculation. And to the thrid, does not all save effects on a creature that is reduced to 0 hit points end? And even still francis doesn't die, sure you've managed to incapacitate it for a short time till someone uses remove affliction on it (and a Magister can do so as a standard action). So no you cannot kill Francis and that there disproves your statement.
When i said kill, i suppose i should have clarified that to be 'reduced to 0 hitpoints'
Thankyou for actually reading my post.
Um, PCs going out God hunting IS a random idea to slay a God on a whim. ;)
When I say "God hunting", I'm talking about the PCs saying "Hey, let's go kill Thor.", not some story driven DM plot to hunt down and kill Loki. The former is "God hunting", the latter is not.
And what, perhaps, would be wrong with a wild and wahoo game of slaying the diety-of-the-week? Not every campaign must take itself seriously.
The PC's can't go God hunting on a whim tho; all the Gods have this annoying discorperation once you get them to bloodied; it's impossible to kill a God without a DM Plot Device.
It takes about 5 seconds to come up with a Sword of Anti-Discorporation. Also works as a property for implements.
That said, to all you who see "god slaying" as end game: Your PCs have their eyes set too low...
All of my characters are continuations of the same back story that includes my first Mystic from Basic. The plot didn't really start to solidify until 1e AD&D, but the jist of it is this: My first major 1e character (Ordrek) was/is a powerful caster who dedicated his life to protecting the nation of his birth, Syr (pronounced like "sear"). So much in fact that his essence essentially became infused with Syr in an odd form of lichdom; the nation is basically his phylactery. He would do anything to protect it, but not to save himself (he was a Lawful Neutral character), but because he is Syr in essence as some sort of avatar even he doesn't really understand. He feels the needs of its land and people.
He had a moment of clarity when Syr was nearly destroyed in an extended campaign involving a war between two polar aligned deities. One thing became clear to him: The existence of deities threatened the existance of Syr. From that moment he dedicated much of his efforts toward ending divinity. To that end he formed a secret society called the Scions of Syr, of which all of my characters since have been members.
Currently, Ordrek is trapped in an unknown location by a group of "angels" (Devas, Solars, etc) who discovered him experimenting with the fabric of the Astral Plane. They do not know his ultimate goals. He has been trapped there for centuries now. My current character (an Eladrin swordmage), like several low level characters before him, is a member of the SoS and bears its symbol tattooed his tongue: A key within a down pointing triangle.
He doesn't know it yet (because newer members don't get much info), but he is on a mission to collect info on how to sever the ties of power between the astral plane and the deities who wield it. He may need to release Ordrek for this. He may need to ascend to godhood himself so he can have a better understanding of how these bonds work. But in the end he will probably have the same fate as most of my high end characters (I have three I would say qualify): death or imprisonment in some form. And you know what? I'll still be deeply satisfied with whatever happens, because it will only further enrich the storyline.
The wanting is often far better than the having, and a continuing story arch gives you something to look forward to.
This is one of those debates I find pointless. Do it if you want it in your game, don't if you do not. Don't get a bee in your bonnet about how others play their game. The End.
That said, to all you who see "god slaying" as end game: Your PCs have their eyes set too low...
All of my characters are continuations of the same back story that includes my first Mystic from Basic. The plot didn't really start to solidify until 1e AD&D, but the jist of it is this: My first major 1e character (Ordrek) was/is a powerful caster who dedicated his life to protecting the nation of his birth, Syr (pronounced like "sear"). So much in fact that his essence essentially became infused with Syr in an odd form of lichdom; the nation is basically his phylactery. He would do anything to protect it, but not to save himself (he was a Lawful Neutral character), but because he is Syr in essence as some sort of avatar even he doesn't really understand. He feels the needs of its land and people.
He had a moment of clarity when Syr was nearly destroyed in an extended campaign involving a war between two polar aligned deities. One thing became clear to him: The existence of deities threatened the existance of Syr. From that moment he dedicated much of his efforts toward ending divinity. To that end he formed a secret society called the Scions of Syr, of which all of my characters since have been members.
Currently, Ordrek is trapped in an unknown location by a group of "angels" (Devas, Solars, etc) who discovered him experimenting with the fabric of the Astral Plane. They do not know his ultimate goals. He has been trapped there for centuries now. My current character (an Eladrin swordmage), like several low level characters before him, is a member of the SoS and bears its symbol tattooed his tongue: A key within a down pointing triangle.
He doesn't know it yet (because newer members don't get much info), but he is on a mission to collect info on how to sever the ties of power between the astral plane and the deities who wield it. He may need to release Ordrek for this. He may need to ascend to godhood himself so he can have a better understanding of how these bonds work. But in the end he will probably have the same fate as most of my high end characters (I have three I would say qualify): death or imprisonment in some form. And you know what? I'll still be deeply satisfied with whatever happens, because it will only further enrich the storyline.
The wanting is often far better than the having, and a continuing story arch gives you something to look forward to.
Awesome. Frickin Awesome. Do you have DM cooperation or do you incorporate it into the current campaign as best you can? I just started something similar with the campaign I'm running and I hope it turns out as well.
I personally hope we'll get an "Evil PC" book, and the DMG that coms with it will have Good God stats.
Same here! Evil Races, classes, backgrounds, Epic Destinies and Evil flavored feats and rituals! It would be so cool. And that would be a great addition to have good god stats. Pelor Is going DOWN!
Awesome. Frickin Awesome. Do you have DM cooperation or do you incorporate it into the current campaign as best you can? I just started something similar with the campaign I'm running and I hope it turns out as well.
I fit it in where I can without being obtrusive to the other group members, and I'm lucky enough to have a group (we rotate DMing) who also occassionally makes the struggle center stage. You can imagine that a goal like this will run afoul of the goals of other PCs... namely Divine types. I've only ever had to kill a fellow PC once, but it was totally RP and we both walked away satisfied from the encounter.
Note that Scions of Syr also include many divine classes. One of Ordrek's earliest discoveries is that divine followers retain their powers even after they turn their back on their gods, though we never have them do this openly. It's much better to have someone on the inside=) Right now our group only includes one other member of SoS; a disillusioned Avenger. We watch eachother's backs and keep our association hush hush from the other PCs. This is complicated by the fact that the Avenger shares the same "faith" as our Cleric (a homebrew deity of valor) and the Avenger is something of a PTSD/shell-shocked war veteran given to alcoholism. He just can't see the "valor" in war any more.
Despite this, the PCs all consider eachother friends and would die for eachother... two of us just have some other secrets we would die for as well=) Mayeb we'll bring the others on board in time.
I never said anything about killing it permanently.
As I recall, the Tarrasque could be killed in 2nd edition. There was like a 7-step process including a Wish spell that you had to follow. It was incredibly unlikely that you would be able to get all this together, but if there is a process, there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000 chance that you get it all right and actually destroy it.
Honestly, if a god can kill another god, which has happened in the game's history, why can't a demigod PC or whatever kill it also? Plus, not all of those types of entities are going to band together. For instance, the primordial that wants to consume EVERYTHING, Turaglas the Ebon Maw. This Demon Prince would like nothing more than to eat all that has been created. I don't think it will care if you kill one of the demon princes. In fact, it might just like that, finding an opportunity to finally take over. I think a lot of the gods would see it this way.
That said, I actually get irritated with some of you who are putting your personal opinion of how the gods will react as fact. You can't say with absolute certainty that they will 'band together and destroy the threat' unless you choose to have your campaign take that direction. Three cheers for the guy that said we should play it how we see it and stop arguing. It's all about what you, the D&D players (including the DM
) find fun, nuf said.Hello all. Does anyone know if there are plans on releasing any stats for the various gods and demi-gods? If so, any idea on the timeframe?
I have a plot involving Vecna and would love to have the players go toe to toe once they reach level 30.
I don't mind that a few Evil deities have been stat-ed out, but I'd really prefer if they didn't give stats to every deity. I always find it lame when you can just look at the numbers and see who's going to kick whose butt.
I don't mind that a few Evil deities have been stat-ed out, but I'd really prefer if they didn't give stats to every deity. I always find it lame when you can just look at the numbers and see who's going to kick whose butt.
The only reason I could see anyone caring if some other group is able to kill gods or not is if you view D&D and your character's accomplishments as some sort of competition. If you instead just see D&D as a tool for your group's enjoyment, you shouldn't care what rules other groups use since you can tailor them to your own fun.
In short, stop comparing how badass your characters are and enjoy your game.
The only reason I could see anyone caring if some other group is able to kill gods or not is if you view D&D and your character's accomplishments as some sort of competition. If you instead just see D&D as a tool for your group's enjoyment, you shouldn't care what rules other groups use since you can tailor them to your own fun.
In short, stop comparing how badass your characters are and enjoy your game.
You say this as though I can change how the people I play with treat the game, or how the people I read on these boards treat the game. You say it as though the cliches that the community builds for the game don't change the game -- in fact, they do.
You say this as though I can change how the people I play with treat the game, or how the people I read on these boards treat the game. You say it as though the cliches that the community builds for the game don't change the game -- in fact, they do.
Then maybe you're 1) playing with the wrong group, and/or 2) you're playing the wrong game.
Then maybe you're 1) playing with the wrong group, and/or 2) you're playing the wrong game.
No, I like D&D just fine; it's the things they haven't put into the game that I don't like. I enjoy "dungeon crawling", not "dominion crawling".
If it has stats, it can be killed.
really???
lets try this...
Unkillable God Level 40 Solo Soldier
Large immortal humanoid XP 560,000
Initiative +33 Senses Perception +24; blindsight
Fire storm Aura (Fire) aura 25; Any enemy that starts it's turn in the aura takes 50 fire damage
HP 2,000; Bloodied 1,000 (see discorpration)
Regeneration 20
AC 58; Fortitude 51, Reflex 53, Will 52
Immune Fire; Resist All 15
Saving Throws +5
Speed 10
Action Points 2
M Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 3; +47 vs. AC; 3d10 + 15 damage
a Elemental Storm (standard; recharge 56) ● Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Thunder
Area burst 2 within 10; +43 vs. Will; 5d12 + 10 acid, cold, lightning, thunder damage
Divine Discorporation (when first bloodied; encounter)
UB God discorporates
Esoteric Action (immediate interrupt, when an enemy within sight spends an action point; at-will)
UB God spends an action point and takes an extra action.
Immortal Resistance (whenUB God gains an effect that a save can end; at-will)
Vecna makes a saving throw. On a save, Vecna is unaff ected by the effect.
Overwhelming power (when UB God drops a creature to 0 hit points or fewer; at-will)
UB God gains a action point.
Curse of the UB God
Any creature attacked (Hit or miss) by UB God is marked by a powerful curse Until the end of the UB gods next turn. The creature takes 3d8 extra damage from all of UB God;s attacks, and if the UB god bloodies them well cursed he gains an action point.
UB God str of will (minor at will)
The Ub god can negate all negatives he has to his saveing throws.
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages all
Str 28 (+29) Dex 26 (+28) Wis 18 (+24)
Con 19 (+24) Int 16 (+23) Cha 17 (+23)
Same here! Evil Races, classes, backgrounds, Epic Destinies and Evil flavored feats and rituals! It would be so cool. And that would be a great addition to have good god stats. Pelor Is going DOWN!
"Hey Bahamut? You know my LG Dragonbron Paladin? Yeeeeaaah... he's now CN, and he worships Tiamat. He's here to kill you. He's bringing a full Epic teir party. I'd start running."
Same here! Evil Races, classes, backgrounds, Epic Destinies and Evil flavored feats and rituals! It would be so cool. And that would be a great addition to have good god stats. Pelor Is going DOWN!
I'd just be happy seeing some good aligned things in a monster manual for once.
really???
lets try this...
Wouldn't be too hard; the hardest issue would be hitting it with a stun or unconscious ability, once the Orbizard's sleeped it (or whatever) and applied a -19 to it's saving throws it would just be a matter of time.
I'm sure somone on the CO boards can come up with a (probably Elven) class build with a reasonable chance to stunlock that guy.
Hell, there are Ranger builds that average over a thousand damage in the first round, with damage in the high hundreds for each round after. Assuming a couple of leaders to give the Ranger to-hit bonuses and enough healing some of the high-damage Ranger builds could probably drop this guy in ~4-5 rounds, although survivability might not be an issue as his damage output is pretty meh.
Yeah, the only hard thing about him is his high defences, pile on a few good leader bonuses and an optimised to-hit character, say a Rogue or Ranger, and it would just be a matter of time.
And of course, if all else fails there's always Punisher of the Gods.
And of course, if all else fails there's always Punisher of the Gods.
A name which acquires new irony in this context=)
Wouldn't be too hard; the hardest issue would be hitting it with a stun or unconscious ability, once the Orbizard's sleeped it (or whatever) and applied a -19 to it's saving throws it would just be a matter of time.
I'm sure somone on the CO boards can come up with a (probably Elven) class build with a reasonable chance to stunlock that guy.
Hell, there are Ranger builds that average over a thousand damage in the first round, with damage in the high hundreds for each round after. Assuming a couple of leaders to give the Ranger to-hit bonuses and enough healing some of the high-damage Ranger builds could probably drop this guy in ~4-5 rounds, although survivability might not be an issue as his damage output is pretty meh.
Yeah, the only hard thing about him is his high defences, pile on a few good leader bonuses and an optimised to-hit character, say a Rogue or Ranger, and it would just be a matter of time.
And of course, if all else fails there's always Punisher of the Gods.
You missed this ability
God str of will (minor at will)
The Ub god can negate all negatives he has to his saveing throws
Though admittedly it'd need to be a non-action instead of minor. Perhaps a better feature would be "Start of every turn, automatically remove 1 effect a save can end". Either way, as I posted before, if you account for the cheating ways of winning a fight (perma stun, regeneration, kiting, infinite damage loops) winning becomes impossibly unlikely.
And i assure you; a BS\Daggermaster\PotG Half-Orc Rogue with some leader backup to provide a few to-hit bonuses would be able to put some serious hurt down on that guy with fairly good reliability thanks to the massive to-hit bonuses Warlords can give out. A ranger might suffer from his resist to damage, but there are ways to negate that resistance.
You're seriously underestimating the kind of power some of the optimised striker builds can project; i think a quick tour of the CharOp boards might enlighten you; one of the old Tempest Fighter builds was capable of one shotting Orcus.
Taking out Infinite Blade Cascade, Infinite Righteous Rage of Tempus + Punisher of the Gods (thank you errata), Chaos Reflecting his Death Touch, or other bad readings of powers to make infinite damage scenarios (Infinitely reroll vorpal damage) there is no one shotting Orcus. You also fail to account this hypothetical God is 10 levels higher than Orcus- how will the warlord provide those hit bonuses in the first place if the Warlord can't hit? Action Surge and Inspiring Presence will only bring the defenses back down to Leaderless Orcus level.
"Hey Bahamut? You know my LG Dragonbron Paladin? Yeeeeaaah... he's now CN, and he worships Tiamat. He's here to kill you. He's bringing a full Epic teir party. I'd start running."
What the hell. Fey Feline, you and me, lets go raze Celestia.
Bring some friends. It'll be a party. :invasion:
I'd just be happy seeing some good aligned things in a monster manual for once.
We'd need a what... Hero Manual?...
Name of it aside it can be released along with the Evil Player's Handbook. We could even get a DMG that guides you on creating an Evil PC campaign. It'd be a nice spin on things.
I fit it in where I can without being obtrusive to the other group members, and I'm lucky enough to have a group (we rotate DMing) who also occassionally makes the struggle center stage. You can imagine that a goal like this will run afoul of the goals of other PCs... namely Divine types. I've only ever had to kill a fellow PC once, but it was totally RP and we both walked away satisfied from the encounter.
Note that Scions of Syr also include many divine classes. One of Ordrek's earliest discoveries is that divine followers retain their powers even after they turn their back on their gods, though we never have them do this openly. It's much better to have someone on the inside=) Right now our group only includes one other member of SoS; a disillusioned Avenger. We watch eachother's backs and keep our association hush hush from the other PCs. This is complicated by the fact that the Avenger shares the same "faith" as our Cleric (a homebrew deity of valor) and the Avenger is something of a PTSD/shell-shocked war veteran given to alcoholism. He just can't see the "valor" in war any more.
Despite this, the PCs all consider eachother friends and would die for eachother... two of us just have some other secrets we would die for as well=) Mayeb we'll bring the others on board in time.
That would be cool. If you could attract the alligience of another PC, or even convert/corrupt the Cleric, that would lead to some interesting RP. How did the one PC die? He challenge you to a duel, or you assasinate him, or something? Sounds like it would be a good story.
I've got 4 PCs in my game. one worships Bahamut (and a little of Io, thorugh the hier of the forgotten gods background), two worship melora, and one worships both Bahamut and Bane. Bane is trying to recruit the other two gods and whether or not he succeedes is dependant on the PCs that worship each god respectivly. It'll be interesting to see the PCs pulling against each other, or thier faiths, while the fate of the pantheon swirls around them. Here's hoping they rally together!
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=19067509#post19067509
The numbers work (broadly) on paper, although I'm sure there's some nightmarish combo of CharOps stuff that could still render it trivial. Patched the worst of the loopholes, though.
Since this thread was one of my primary inspirations for this, here's an unplaytested but possibly reasonable encounter featuring a 37th level deity, and his three worst enemies.
I think the worst problem is Orcus' death touch. 4e monster stats are not meant for monster vs. monster combats and death touch is the worst offender. With it Orcus could slay a level 80 monster if needed, since with the damage progression it's unlikely that Orcus is slain before he get's the opportunity to miss twice.
IMO a reasonable houserule would be that entities of cosmic status (aka primordials and deities) are inherently resistant to Orcus' death touch and instead of it's usual effect suffer 69 damage on a hit and 5d12+9 damage on a miss (high limited damage expression on a miss, maximized high limited damage expression on a hit).
PS: I really like the idea behind this encounter. Certainly makes a great story.
I've read every Orcus slayer thread in Char Op since June 2008.
Taking out Infinite Blade Cascade, Infinite Righteous Rage of Tempus + Punisher of the Gods (thank you errata), Chaos Reflecting his Death Touch, or other bad readings of powers to make infinite damage scenarios (Infinitely reroll vorpal damage) there is no one shotting Orcus. You also fail to account this hypothetical God is 10 levels higher than Orcus- how will the warlord provide those hit bonuses in the first place if the Warlord can't hit? Action Surge and Inspiring Presence will only bring the defenses back down to Leaderless Orcus level.
Warlords have plenty of ways to give attack bonuses without hitting the target, off the top of my head there's the Taclord's class feature and the Stir the Hornet's Nest daily. Plus there's always flanking for another +2.
As for the Orcusslayer builds, the main things that killed them were the Dual Strike errata and the Blade Cascade errata.
Mind you, i'm pretty sure the Apocalypse Twins still work.
--EDIT--
Yeah, a quick perusal of the errata shows that the Apocalypse Twins still work, so if you update them so that the moving twin has the Feytouched PP instead so he does damage even if he can't push the target, then those two can kill anything (and everything) with stats. Dont'cha love infinite loops?
With it Orcus could slay a level 80 monster if needed, since with the damage progression it's unlikely that Orcus is slain before he get's the opportunity to miss twice.
I see nothing wrong with that.
HP 2,000; Bloodied 1,000 (see discorpration)
Regeneration 20
AC 58; Fortitude 51, Reflex 53, Will 52
Ok, lets take a look here at attack rolls.
lets say 2 tac lords are in the party one a eldrin of the spiral tower, the other human battle captian.
then my striker a dagger rogue...who wnt kensi instead of dagger master...
Rogue has +8 dex, eladrin has +8 Int and the human has +7 Int...
first round with a dagger the rogue is attacking with an action point and the human used one inspireing word...
attack bonus +15 (1/2 lev) +8 (Dex) +6 (Magic) +2 (Dagger/kensi) +8 (16th level spiral tac lord) +1 (Tac lord feat) +2 (Battle captian) +2 (CA)+3 (Prof) +7 (inspireing words) +3 (expertise
+57 to hit needs a 2 or better on 1 attack better make it good...
well lets add in a cleric to prof of doom garuntee a crit...
lets do a 7w attack with back stabber
7x4=28
8x5=40
we will give +4 (kensi) +8 (Dex) + 6 (magic)+ 6 (item)+8 (warlord) +10 (misc)=42
110 + crit damage lets say 6d12 +high crit feat is 3d4
lets max the crit damage... 54... wait lets throw in the war ring (+3d12) +36 so...90 more points... 200pts of damage wow that sure feels awsome...but next round you lose 18 points of attack (first round + action point + inspireing words) and 8 Damge...but a good warlord can keep some of that bonus for the rest of the fight..lets throw in leading the attack + 8 to hit...so only lose
but lets say for the sake of arguement if 4 party members working togather can call 200 hp per round...withj the 5th keeping the god stuned...
ok, so now just to go with everything going your way you turn off his regen, and get past ressit all...
so 5 rounds in he discorperates...now he knows you, and is ready for you and hunting you next time...so now what???
Taking down an evil god could be a good endgame for some campaigns, which is what the stats are for.
You know what I think would be awesome? An evil campaign where the PCs eventual goal would be to usurp the position of several evil gods in the pantheon.
EXACTLY!!!!! This is what we tried doing, but Bane kicked my masters ass!!! lol, Now we are going to ressurect that storyline, and we are going to get to 30th and try again, but we will be using the War of the Spider Queen/Lady Penitent storyline as opposed to Times of Troubles
What gets me is the gods have been reduced to just another monster to kill.
I suggest you bone up on your classical mythology.
Warlords have plenty of ways to give attack bonuses without hitting the target, off the top of my head there's the Taclord's class feature and the Stir the Hornet's Nest daily. Plus there's always flanking for another +2.
As for the Orcusslayer builds, the main things that killed them were the Dual Strike errata and the Blade Cascade errata.
Mind you, i'm pretty sure the Apocalypse Twins still work.
--EDIT--
Yeah, a quick perusal of the errata shows that the Apocalypse Twins still work, so if you update them so that the moving twin has the Feytouched PP instead so he does damage even if he can't push the target, then those two can kill anything (and everything) with stats. Dont'cha love infinite loops?
I label Apocalype twins under "bad powers causing infinite damage".
Also, that's not a one-shot, that's chipping away as a pair in your own private time continuum
. Last point, using an AP to gain an action is a free action, so DMs can limit the amount of Free actions you spend on your turn and break the infinity.
Let me take a step back: Wizards is not releasing creatures higher than level 35 because they won't die without "cheating". Since Wizards doesn't want to promote the cheating tactics, they don't incentivise it with a target for it.
What gets me is the gods have been reduced to just another monster to kill.
have you read the draconomicon stuff on tiamat aat all???
“Deity” is a special designation reserved for creatures that
are truly godlike. Put simply, deities break the rules.
- Deities always roll saving throws in response to an attack or effect that imposes a condition or deals ongoing damage, even if that effect normally does not allow a saving throw.
- A deity is an epic threat. It cannot be attacked by creatures or characters whose level is lower than 20th. It is literally beyond their capability to affect.
- Deities know Supernal, which allows them to speak and understand all languages.
- A deity is normally defeated when reduced to its bloodied value, but is not killed. Instead, the deity is discorporated: Its essence escapes, and it is unable to assume physical form for a time. The specifics are set by the DM, but discorporation lasts at least for several months, and up to three years. The deity is weaker during this time, but it is far from gone. If PCs wish to truly kill a deity, they must fulfill one or more conditions specific to that deity. This could require destroying the deity’s most prominent temple, magically separating the deity’s realm from the rest of creation, or finding an artifact that can deliver the killing blow. If the specific conditions are satisfied, the deity cannot discorporate and instead becomes bloodied as normal.
and
DESTROYING TIAMAT
Only by meeting specific conditions can the characters hope to kill Tiamat. The following are sample quests.
Appeal to Avarice: An ancient treasure was lost in the Astral Sea while being transported in a githyanki ship. If the PCs can locate this cache of immaculate gems and rare metals, they can use Tiamat’s greed to draw her out of her domain. They must trick her into entering a domain under the control of Bahamut, where she can be slain, or at least her discorporated essence can be trapped.
Draconic Weapons: The PCs must kill five ancient dragons, each of a different chromatic variety, then craft magic items from their bones or scales. Only if they are wearing or using these items can they destroy Tiamat. At least one of the ancient dragons killed for this purpose must be a past or present consort of Tiamat.
Gather Tiamat’s Eggs: One hoary old tome printed on basalt pages and bound in purple dragon scales describes a ritual called Fashioning Tiamat’s True Death. This ritual’s intricate recipe includes procuring at least one of Tiamat’s eggs, in which a newly forged weapon must be quenched.
Multiple weapons require multiple eggs. If the weapon is used against Tiamat and draws blood at least once, the god’s essence is destroyed, not discorporated.
Name me any non god monster in the game that is even close to that hard to beat...
What gets me is the gods have been reduced to just another monster to kill.
lesser gods (under CR35) are the highest rung of creatures stated, and even still requare major planing and the DM going out of his way to plan for you to fight them...even then you may not be able to kill them..
I label Apocalype twins under "bad powers causing infinite damage".
Also, that's not a one-shot, that's chipping away as a pair in your own private time continuum
even then it wont work...becuse the Apocalype twins need the DM to allow them on the quest to get the plot point to be able to do it...
as written any DM (not good, not bad, not great ANY) can say "Sorry we are not setting up those qusts... and keep gods completly 100% unkillable...
I label Apocalype twins under "bad powers causing infinite damage".
Doesn't change the fact that they can kill that God quite easily, throw in the other 3 party members and he's toast.
Doesn't change the fact that they can kill that God quite easily, throw in the other 3 party members and he's toast.
AHHHHHHH no they can't as I said above they can discorperate him...not kill
I see nothing wrong with that.
Except that it was never considered to work this way. Death Touch was solely designed for use against PCs where the max damage would be ~250 damage, it's just not meant to enable Orcus to hit other epic solos for >1,000 damage. That's not the place Orcus is meant to hold in the cosmic hierarchy. He's one of the weaker primordials, not the most powerfull being in the cosmos.
I suggest you bone up on your classical mythology.
I don't have to brush up on what I already know. This is D&D not real world mythology.
have you read the draconomicon stuff on tiamat aat all???
and
Name me any non god monster in the game that is even close to that hard to beat...
lesser gods (under CR35) are the highest rung of creatures stated, and even still requare major planing and the DM going out of his way to plan for you to fight them...even then you may not be able to kill them..
You have lost sight of the point of my post. Deities should not be on the menu.
I don't have to brush up on what I already know. This is D&D not real world mythology.
Yep, and in D&D Gods are well known for being targets for sufficiently powerful beings.
Hell, the Forgotten Realms go through gods on a yearly basis. And i'm sure we all remember Vecna's original stunt which got him his godhood.
D&D also has it's roots in classical mythology, wherin Gods are most certainly 'on the menu'.
I think the worst problem is Orcus' death touch. 4e monster stats are not meant for monster vs. monster combats and death touch is the worst offender. With it Orcus could slay a level 80 monster if needed, since with the damage progression it's unlikely that Orcus is slain before he get's the opportunity to miss twice.
I think I have that covered in the encounter I posted. Between the low recharge rate on the power, Orcus' mediocre accuracy (at least against gods four levels higher than him), and Amoth's Resurgence ability, a 30th level party should be able to drop Goatboy well before he hugs Amoth to death. Of course, Orcus might get lucky and drop the god in round two or so, but there's not much you can do to avoid that other than fudging die rolls.
And that's not even allowing for the party having some effect that interferes with recharge powers. Even one of those drops Orcus' chances severely.
PS: I really like the idea behind this encounter. Certainly makes a great story.
It's a good bit of fluff, which is rare-ish in 4E so far. I'm particularly amused by the fact that both Orcus and Demogorgon's writeups say they were the one that delivered the killing blow to poor Amoth. Makes me suspect that if Rimmon wasn't dead, his press agents would also be making the same claim.
Hmmm. Have to do a stat block for an undead Rimmon husk, no doubt reanimated by the Doomguard as part of some nefarious scheme.
D&D also has it's roots in classical mythology, wherin Gods are most certainly 'on the menu'.
I can't recall a single myth where mortals just up and went God hunting on a whim. So no, they were never on the "menu". Single abberational stories where Gods died does not create a "menu." Yet putting Gods on a menu is what they can do in D&D. On a whim a party can decide to hunt down a God. On a whim they can do the research on the God's weaknesses and find what is necessary to kill it. The only thing barring them from success is DM fiat. Now, I don't think DM fiat is a bad thing, but my opinion is that in any rules system, the rules system should not allow PCs to just go God hunting on a whim.
I can't recall a single myth where mortals just up and went God hunting on a whim. So no, they were never on the "menu". Single abberational stories where Gods died does not create a "menu." Yet putting Gods on a menu is what they can do in D&D. On a whim a party can decide to hunt down a God. On a whim they can do the research on the God's weaknesses and find what is necessary to kill it. The only thing barring them from success is DM fiat. Now, I don't think DM fiat is a bad thing, but my opinion is that in any rules system, the rules system should not allow PCs to just go God hunting on a whim.
I hate to break this to you, but 30th Level PCs are not even remotely 'mortals' anymore. The Undying Warriors are literally immortal, the Dark Wanderers just walk out of hell, the assassin ED has literally beaten death itself, everyone has some way to cheat death at least once per day and a couple of PC's are actually on the cusp of ascending to full godhood.
And it's not DM Fiat; all the Gods have the Divine Discorperation; unless the DM gives you their plot device, you cannot kill them. End of discussion.
I hate to break this to you, but 30th Level PCs are not even remotely 'mortals' anymore. The Undying Warriors are literally immortal, the Dark Wanderers just walk out of hell, the assassin ED has literally beaten death itself, everyone has some way to cheat death at least once per day and a couple of PC's are actually on the cusp of ascending to full godhood.
That. Even 21st level characters are beyond the norms of mortality. That first step on your epic destiny sets them apart from ordinary heroes. Epic tier is, and should be, different. The PCs are on a quest for ultimate personal power in a variety of forms, and they have to contend with others on the same road. It isn't just bigger monsters and more loot, and a DM who runs it that way is missing out.
And it's not DM Fiat; all the Gods have the Divine Discorperation; unless the DM gives you their plot device, you cannot kill them. End of discussion.
That too. Getting around discorporation should be an adventure in itself, and not a quick process at all. Assuming you're facing a god for the first time at level 28 or so, you might spend years of game time over the next two levels questing for his vulnerability, and facing him in person more than once in the process.
Bit like liches at the lower tiers, actually.
I hate to break this to you, but 30th Level PCs are not even remotely 'mortals' anymore. The Undying Warriors are literally immortal, the Dark Wanderers just walk out of hell, the assassin ED has literally beaten death itself, everyone has some way to cheat death at least once per day and a couple of PC's are actually on the cusp of ascending to full godhood.
They're also not remotely equal to Gods. They're in between mortal and full Godhood until after 30th level when they retire, acend or whatever. Even a demigod is not a God. A demigod is sort of divine and sort of mortal, but not truly either.
And it's not DM Fiat; all the Gods have the Divine Discorperation; unless the DM gives you their plot device, you cannot kill them. End of discussion.
Then yes, it's DM fiat. The DM decides whether not you will ever find the plot device based on his whim. That prevents PCs going "God hunting today." through DM fiat.
That. Even 21st level characters are beyond the norms of mortality. That first step on your epic destiny sets them apart from ordinary heroes. Epic tier is, and should be, different. The PCs are on a quest for ultimate personal power in a variety of forms, and they have to contend with others on the same road. It isn't just bigger monsters and more loot, and a DM who runs it that way is missing out.
That too. Getting around discorporation should be an adventure in itself, and not a quick process at all. Assuming you're facing a god for the first time at level 28 or so, you might spend years of game time over the next two levels questing for his vulnerability, and facing him in person more than once in the process.
Bit like liches at the lower tiers, actually.
I agree with both of those statements.
It's whether or not the DM will allow you to have the adventure to figure out the God's vulnerability, that is DM fiat, not the actual discorporation ability of the God.
They're also not remotely equal to Gods. They're in between mortal and full Godhood until after 30th level when they retire, acend or whatever. Even a demigod is not a God. A demigod is sort of divine and sort of mortal, but not truly either.
Actually, 5 30th level PC's are approximately equal to 1 lesser god in terms of power.
I suggest you find a different term to use than 'mortal' too, as 'mortal' means 'can die', and gods can die in DnD, so they're technically mortals too.
Then yes, it's DM fiat. The DM decides whether not you will ever find the plot device based on his whim. That prevents PCs going "God hunting today." through DM fiat.
DM fiat is when the DM uses his powers as the DM to change something; the divine discorperation does not need changing, it's an adventure, not DM Fiat.
If the DM decided you could kill gods and they wouldn't discorperate on bloodied, that would be DM fiat.
Think about it. If the gods can be killed by mortals then why don't the gods just start choosing sides and fight each other? Or anytime a PC gets over level 15 the god comes down and kills them, much like the Lich Queen does when githyanki get a certain level. Eliminates the competition.
Well we started with GDQ1-7 and moved on to Throne of Bloodstone. Went to Time of Troubles. Had the 3 campaign setting epic (Greyhawk-Planescape-Ravenloft). Return to the Demonweb pits. So every edition had a module that put us up against the godlike beings and a chance to kill them.
Why should 4.0 be anything different?
Gods can't kill mortals for any reason. Because since one can kill another can raise.
It's also heavily implied that the Gods have better and more important things to do with their time than wiping out high level PC's, especially considering they may well need those PC's to help them out in the future. The Primordials are still there, and they're waiting for their moment to escape and strike, the Gods beat them down the first time by uniting under Bane, but that's not likely to happen again; if the Primordials break free, the Demons of the Abyss launch a major campaign, the Far Realm splits open or any number of other potential disasterous things, the Gods are going to need all the help they can get; possibly against each other.
DM fiat is when the DM uses his powers as the DM to change something; the divine discorperation does not need changing, it's an adventure, not DM Fiat.
If the DM decided you could kill gods and they wouldn't discorperate on bloodied, that would be DM fiat.
Or if he say, decides that you can kill Thor if you hit him with a whip made from the whiskers of his father's beard. He has just fiated in the way to kill that God, which is why killing a God in 4ed is DM fiat. 4ed built DM fiat into God killing.
Or if he say, decides that you can kill Thor if you hit him with a whip made from the whiskers of his father's beard. He has just fiated in the way to kill that God, which is why killing a God in 4ed is DM fiat. 4ed built DM fiat into God killing.
Not really; he hasn't changed Divine Discorperation, it's still functioning exactly as written; unless you have done [Insert Plot Device] the Diety discorperates.
It never says what the plot device(s) in question is/are.
1. They can be normally killable (GMs who don't like killable gods get angry, never use the monster, or house rule in special conditions or unkillability).
2. They can never be killed (GMs that want killable gods decide to houserule in special conditions).
3. They can only be killed through fulfilling special conditions (GMs that don't want killable gods don't need to do anything, those that do end up doing what they would otherwise but with helpful guidelines).
Is not option 3 the best solution to please the majority?
Is not option 3 the best solution to please the majority?
A lot of people just like to feel official, whether they admit it or not. No matter which WotC does chose, doing so affects the tone of the game on some fundamental level.
Sure, you can easily houserule contrary in your homegame, but you still have this nagging feeling in the back of your mind of how one of the fundamental pillars of the official gameworld goess against your own personal preference and this might eventually lead you to seek out annother game whose official background is in line with your prefered way. Because in the end the official assumption of how deities are treated in the game affects the tone in which future supplements and novels will approach them.
It's like Marvel or DC making a revelation about your favorite superhero that you despise. You can ignore it and retreat to fanfiction written by other people ignoring it, but it's there and will change how everyone else looks upon this hero in the future.
Gods can't kill mortals for any reason. Because since one can kill another can raise.
If mortals can be raised, then so can Gods. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Besides, it's almost entirely irrelevant. If a God kills mortals, there's next to no chance that another God is going to raise them. Especially if they're little punk wannabe God killers that if raised will one day pose a risk to the raising God.
It's also heavily implied that the Gods have better and more important things to do with their time than wiping out high level PC's, especially considering they may well need those PC's to help them out in the future.
That's nonsense. If I'm having a feud with my neighbor, I'm not going to raise a man eating lion in my backyard just in case I might need it someday. The chance that it will eat ME is just too high. Better to not have the lion around and just try to find a different way to take on the neighbor.
Not really; he hasn't changed Divine Discorperation, it's still functioning exactly as written; unless you have done [Insert Plot Device] the Diety discorperates.
It never says what the plot device(s) in question is/are.
Yeees. You have introduced a DM fiated plot device that can kill a God. Without that DM fiat, you have no way to kill a God.
From a logical statepoint, you can only do a few things with Gods in an RPG:
1. They can be normally killable (GMs who don't like killable gods get angry, never use the monster, or house rule in special conditions or unkillability).
2. They can never be killed (GMs that want killable gods decide to houserule in special conditions).
3. They can only be killed through fulfilling special conditions (GMs that don't want killable gods don't need to do anything, those that do end up doing what they would otherwise but with helpful guidelines).
Is not option 3 the best solution to please the majority?
Not really. Option one pleases those who like option one. Option two pleases those who like option two. Option three pleases those who like option three. There is absolutely no reason any one from any of those groups should use an option they don't like, so there is no best solution.
Now, I don't think DM fiat is a bad thing, but my opinion is that in any rules system, the rules system should not allow PCs to just go God hunting on a whim.
What's wrong with a wild and wahoo game of high level PCs going god hunting on a whim?
Not really. Option one pleases those who like option one. Option two pleases those who like option two. Option three pleases those who like option three. There is absolutely no reason any one from any of those groups should use an option they don't like, so there is no best solution.
Option 3 pleases those that don't want gods killed, because no gods are getting killed on their watch and they don't have to do a thing about it. The fact that other games might have god-killing is true even if the official rules were option 2, and quite frankly if you are angry at what other people do in their games, you will never be happy in life. The only people who don't like option 3 are the DMs that want dead gods but don't want story behind it (the very people you dislike the most)
I also cannot really envisage the whole concept that these paltry gods are capable of absolutely insuring their own survival. They obviously aren't anywhere close to omniscient. How are they going to know if there are some punk 30th level characters coming up the pike to gun for them? I can see the gods being on the lookout for it, but what exactly does that entail? They have followers and servants in the world that will oppose anyone that is against them! Sounds kind of like the general outline of the 4e canon.
I also find it hard to believe that the gods aren't plotting and planning against one another, not to even mention what nefarious schemes Primordials and/or Demon Lords, etc may be up to. I look at it like the situation with heads of state in the real world. There is always someone out there willing to jump at the chance to off you. You may be at the pinnacle of power and have huge resources at your disposal, but the odds are just against you. Sooner or later someone gets lucky or someone backstabs you. It doesn't happen often, and it usually happens to the small fry, but eventually even the biggest fish in the sea will run out of luck.
Of course most of the god killing schemes I've seen players construct are fairly laughable. I mean we are talking about a being of immense power which has existed for at the very least centuries, probably millenia. Especially in the case of the evil gods they must have a dozen tricks they can pull out of their sleeve before Sunday brunch.
Even just say taking Vecna and assuming he pretty well has any spell or ritual ever published available to use, and probably nearly any item. Sure, killing him MIGHT not be that hard at 30th if you can actually get there. What? You get to "Vecna's Crypt?" hahahahahahaha! That's fake crypt #42. You "learned the secret ritual that lets you kill him?" teeeheeeeheeee, sure you did. You're sure? Oh, you trust that guy that's been helping you out all this time. Sure.... Oh, you read it in yon book of ancient lore you um found in the wizard school library where it was frikkin planted a 1000 years ago??!!! Good luck!
Take Einstein, Machiavelli, and Joseph Stalin. Multiply by 10. Give him 1000 years to plot. You're starting to get to the point of what is in store when you mess with one of the lesser gods. Killing these beings is the least of your problems.
So, I say its fine that they are "killable" and have stats. I say lets have some fun and go for them. I even say sooner or later they'll fall to someone somewhere sometime. But good luck being that guy. If you're planning on doing it in my campaign I'll give you a fair shot, and a fair shot will be one heck of a tough row to hoe.
What's wrong with a wild and wahoo game of high level PCs going god hunting on a whim?
Other than it being abjectly stupid? That's my opinion anyway. If you and yours don't care for a game that makes sense, great. It's all about having fun.
Option 3 pleases those that don't want gods killed, because no gods are getting killed on their watch and they don't have to do a thing about it. The fact that other games might have god-killing is true even if the official rules were option 2, and quite frankly if you are angry at what other people do in their games, you will never be happy in life. The only people who don't like option 3 are the DMs that want dead gods but don't want story behind it (the very people you dislike the most)
Er, I'm not angry and I don't dislike anyone personally on these forums. I don't know anyone here. Maybe you should worry about your own feelings and not go spouting off about someone elses.
Er, I'm not angry and I don't dislike anyone personally on these forums. I don't know anyone here. Maybe you should worry about your own feelings and not go spouting off about someone elses.
My original point, which for some reason you disagreed with, was that logically/rationally option 3 pleases the most people- leaving only the storyless godkillers and the people who care about campaigns outside of their own not meeting their preference (who would never be satisfied) possibly dissatisfied.
Dislike was more in terms of position, in this case I used it meaning "disagreed with"
That's nonsense. If I'm having a feud with my neighbor, I'm not going to raise a man eating lion in my backyard just in case I might need it someday. The chance that it will eat ME is just too high. Better to not have the lion around and just try to find a different way to take on the neighbor.
People do stupid things during an arms race, and lions are trivial compared to biochemical and atomic weapons. I see no reason to assume the 4E gods are any smarter than we are.
My original point, which for some reason you disagreed with, was that logically/rationally option 3 pleases the most people- leaving only the storyless godkillers and the people who care about campaigns outside of their own not meeting their preference (who would never be satisfied) possibly dissatisfied.
And my point, which you obviously didn't get, was that letting every group pick its own option satisfies everyone, so picking a single option that only pleases MOST people is inferior.
I see no reason to assume the 4E gods are any smarter than we are.
And therein lies the problem.
the people who care about campaigns outside of their own not meeting their preference (who would never be satisfied) possibly dissatisfied.
Not campaigns but a certain special singular campaign aka the official stance of the core game. Many people just want it to meet their preference, they don't care at all how many people slay deities in their private campaigns as long as they have the good feeling of the official game supporting their PoV and the others being the ones houseruling.
I see no reason to assume the 4E gods are any smarter than we are.
Vecna Int 34, Tiamat Int 26
Vecna Int 34, Tiamat Int 26
Eladrin Wizard / Demigod Int: 30
But Intelligence doesn't mean smarter, anyway. It just means you're better at knowledge checks. And it is only two points on a d20 roll in the case of Vecna! Hardly a staggering difference in intellect.
Eladrin Wizard / Demigod Int: 30
And they're no longer "us" either.
There are things discussed like the size of a pantheon of gods (infinite or limite); hidden knowledge of the gods; the nature of divinity (the proverbial 'divine spark'); dependent or independent power (some gods may need worshippers, some not).
How deities behave (are they benevolent, indifferent, or hostile?); why mortals worship deities (out of love, gratitude, fear); why deities use mortals (they need them ;)); active and distant deities; and last but not least, deicide (the immortal question: can the gods be killed?).
Thought this might be worth a reminder, considering the topic at hand ;).
Eladrin Wizard / Demigod Int: 30
But Intelligence doesn't mean smarter, anyway.
Um, yes it does. That's what intelligence is.
It just means you're better at knowledge checks. And it is only two points on a d20 roll in the case of Vecna! Hardly a staggering difference in intellect.
+2 is huge in 4ed.
But Intelligence doesn't mean smarter, anyway.
It does, see PHB 1 page 17
It just means you're better at knowledge checks.
That's only it's game-mechanical effect
And it is only two points on a d20 roll in the case of Vecna! Hardly a staggering difference in intellect.
Compared to a human who can't have more than 18 Int it's actually +8. Higher level humans also no longer represent "us" in RL. And that's still only the direct game-mechanical effect and thus the least difference between such Int-scores (although it's arguable that Wis would be more important regarding the original topic)
The Gods, as always, are limited by the perception of those who imagine them.
Here's the kicker though; we are the ones playing the game. Last time i checked, i'm not capable of thinking like somone smarter than me, and i don't think you are either.
The Gods, as always, are limited by the perception of those who imagine them.
If you just assume that a God has thought of everything any PC can try and can counter it, then they will never be caught off guard. A PC tries something the DM didn't expect, so the DM pauses, figures out the best counter for that situation and then has the God perform it. You don't need to be ultra Godlike in intelligence to act like it.
If you just assume that a God has thought of everything any PC can try and can counter it, then they will never be caught off guard. A PC tries something the DM didn't expect, so the DM pauses, figures out the best counter for that situation and then has the God perform it. You don't need to be ultra Godlike in intelligence to act like it.
Except that by 30th level the PC's are of similar Intelligence.
Except that by 30th level the PC's are of similar Intelligence.
Er, no. By 30th level a specific race and class of PC is of similar intelligence to ONE of the Gods so far listed. The rest of the PCs will be nowhere close.
Er, no. By 30th level a specific race and class of PC is of similar intelligence to ONE of the Gods so far listed. The rest of the PCs will be nowhere close.
Any PC with a class that uses Intelligence as its primary stat, and probably one that uses it as a strong secondary stat, will have a similar level.
Any PC with a class that uses Intelligence as its primary stat, and probably one that uses it as a strong secondary stat, will have a similar level.
Not unless they're starting with a 18 at first level in their strong "secondary" stat. The lowest "Godly" intelligence we know about is 27. An 18 as a starting "secondary" stat will result in 26 Int. One lower than the lowest God. If we assume a more reasonable 14-16 in the secondary stat(since the primary stat is the one you usually put at 18), you are 3-5 points under that God, and that's only if you raise Int every chance you get. If you raise anything else, you drop even further.
Not unless they're starting with a 18 at first level in their strong "secondary" stat. The lowest "Godly" intelligence we know about is 27. An 18 as a starting "secondary" stat will result in 26 Int. One lower than the lowest God. If we assume a more reasonable 14-16 in the secondary stat(since the primary stat is the one you usually put at 18), you are 3-5 points under that God, and that's only if you raise Int every chance you get. If you raise anything else, you drop even further.
Actually i was assuming a starting 16 in primary and secondary stats with racials pushing them to 18. Hence why i said a strong secondary stat.
And of course you can throw that up by another 2 points with Demigod, and if i recall there's another Epic Destiny or two that allows you to increase your stats.
All of which is completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that no human being alive has an 'int score' of more than about 16 - 18 or so, tops, and so anything with an Int of more than 16 - 18 is impossible for us to properly understand, or potentially even comprehend. And that's assuming you have Einstien as your DM, since the average Intelligence is 10, more than ~80% of the people in the world therefore logically have an Int score of about 13.
All of which is completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that no human being alive has an 'int score' of more than about 16 - 18 or so, tops, and so anything with an Int of more than 16 - 18 is impossible for us to properly understand, or potentially even comprehend. And that's assuming you have Einstien as your DM, since the average Intelligence is 10, more than ~80% of the people in the world therefore logically have an Int score of about 13.
Really? Where do you get off saying that 16-18 is real world max? For all you really know, we have max much higher than that. Also, I'm not understanding how you're saying that the average intelligence is 10, yet 80%+ have a 13 int. If the average is 10, most people will have around a 10.
I would assume that 16 - 18 is the real world max as that is around about the highest you can get with a level 1 character. As even level 1 characters are capable of breaking numerous laws of physics, it seems reasonable to assume that no-one on this planet is any higher 'level' than that.
Actually we should be able to work out real world stats by using Strength. One second, i'll be right back.
The record for weightlifting stands at 475kg (1,047lb), although it's not officially recognised as the weightlifter was not drug tested.
In order for a 4e character to life 1,047lb, he needs to have a Strength score of at least 53. So we can conclude that the person who lifted that 475kg has a strength score of about 50 (lets say adrenaline or drugs gave him an extra 3 points to briefly lift the weight)
Ironically, the 10 average Str score pans out perfectly, as that gives a max lifted weight of 200lbs, and surprisingly, the average maximum lifting capacity of a human male is 200lbs.
From this, assuming all ability scores scale equally (which seems a reasonable assumption), real life people's ability scores vary from probably around ~2ish for the disabled, all the way up to ~50ish for the athletes and geniuses.
So the smarter ones of us can in fact work out how the DnD gods would think, because based on a bell curve graph, assuming 2 at one extreme, 50 at the other and the main bell at 10, about ~10% of the people on the planet have an Int score of 30 or higher, so about ~10% of the people on the planet are as smart or smarter than the DnD gods.
Ironically it also means that a top-end wrestler or weightlifter could probably wrestle the Tarrasque, and win.
Interesting.
The record for weightlifting stands at 475kg (1,047lb), although it's not officially recognised as the weightlifter was not drug tested.
In order for a 4e character to life 1,047lb, he needs to have a Strength score of at least 53. So we can conclude that the person who lifted that 475kg has a strength score of about 50 (lets say adrenaline or drugs gave him an extra 3 points to briefly lift the weight)
Ironically, the 10 average Str score pans out perfectly, as that gives a max lifted weight of 200lbs, and surprisingly, the average maximum lifting capacity of a human male is 200lbs.
From this, assuming all ability scores scale equally (which seems a reasonable assumption), real life people's ability scores vary from probably around ~2ish for the disabled, all the way up to ~50ish for the athletes and geniuses.
So the smarter ones of us can in fact work out how the DnD gods would think, because based on a bell curve graph, assuming 2 at one extreme, 50 at the other and the main bell at 10, about ~10% of the people on the planet have an Int score of 30 or higher, so about ~10% of the people on the planet are as smart or smarter than the DnD gods.
Ironically it also means that a top-end wrestler or weightlifter could probably wrestle the Tarrasque, and win.
That's frickin' awesome.
in 3.5 when me and the guys here tryed to stat each other we came up with an easy system. First there where 6 of us doing it so the rule was we each said our opionon, then avraged them...
our bases
Str was easy
Dex how more or less clumsy/fast then avrage people
COn how often you were sick/injured
Int we used IQ here assuming avrage 10-11 is like multiply x9 for iq..
Wis and Cha was pure guess work...
And my point, which you obviously didn't get, was that letting every group pick its own option satisfies everyone, so picking a single option that only pleases MOST people is inferior.
But "letting each group pick there own" is not an option unless you leave all Gods unstatted and requring those that want to kill gods (storied or not) to write them from whole cloth, closest to the die never scenario but also the worst for the other two. Going on the premise that gods would be officially statted, they either die normally, die never, or need something special.
Interesting.
The record for weightlifting stands at 475kg (1,047lb), although it's not officially recognised as the weightlifter was not drug tested.
In order for a 4e character to life 1,047lb, he needs to have a Strength score of at least 53. So we can conclude that the person who lifted that 475kg has a strength score of about 50 (lets say adrenaline or drugs gave him an extra 3 points to briefly lift the weight)
Ironically, the 10 average Str score pans out perfectly, as that gives a max lifted weight of 200lbs, and surprisingly, the average maximum lifting capacity of a human male is 200lbs.
From this, assuming all ability scores scale equally (which seems a reasonable assumption), real life people's ability scores vary from probably around ~2ish for the disabled, all the way up to ~50ish for the athletes and geniuses.
So the smarter ones of us can in fact work out how the DnD gods would think, because based on a bell curve graph, assuming 2 at one extreme, 50 at the other and the main bell at 10, about ~10% of the people on the planet have an Int score of 30 or higher, so about ~10% of the people on the planet are as smart or smarter than the DnD gods.
Ironically it also means that a top-end wrestler or weightlifter could probably wrestle the Tarrasque, and win.
Strength doesn't pan out between real world records and max lifting in D&D. In D&D you can take your max lift and carry it around on your back all day long, only being slowed. Your world record holder couldn't carry his record on his back for 60 seconds most likely. The one time single lift world records more accurately match up to the push/pull limit in D&D I think.
But "letting each group pick there own" is not an option unless you leave all Gods unstatted and requring those that want to kill gods (storied or not) to write them from whole cloth, closest to the die never scenario but also the worst for the other two. Going on the premise that gods would be officially statted, they either die normally, die never, or need something special.
It absolutely is an option. It takes absolutely no effort from a DM to tell his group that the stated Gods in his world can't be killed. None.
Interesting.
The record for weightlifting stands at 475kg (1,047lb), although it's not officially recognised as the weightlifter was not drug tested.
In order for a 4e character to life 1,047lb, he needs to have a Strength score of at least 53. So we can conclude that the person who lifted that 475kg has a strength score of about 50 (lets say adrenaline or drugs gave him an extra 3 points to briefly lift the weight)
Ironically, the 10 average Str score pans out perfectly, as that gives a max lifted weight of 200lbs, and surprisingly, the average maximum lifting capacity of a human male is 200lbs.
From this, assuming all ability scores scale equally (which seems a reasonable assumption), real life people's ability scores vary from probably around ~2ish for the disabled, all the way up to ~50ish for the athletes and geniuses.
So the smarter ones of us can in fact work out how the DnD gods would think, because based on a bell curve graph, assuming 2 at one extreme, 50 at the other and the main bell at 10, about ~10% of the people on the planet have an Int score of 30 or higher, so about ~10% of the people on the planet are as smart or smarter than the DnD gods.
Ironically it also means that a top-end wrestler or weightlifter could probably wrestle the Tarrasque, and win.
Well, You could just as easily argue that the 20xSTR number is for an amount of weight which you can LIFT AND CARRY. Its hard to find a number for the absolute record for this, but judging by other records in more complete lifts than the dead lift you used we could just as easily argue that the number is more like around 500 lbs, yielding a maximum STR rating of 25.
I'd also argue it isn't quite accurate to consider competitive lifts as being purely STR checks. These kinds of extreme performances should really be considered athletics skill uses, in which case all sorts of additional modifiers accrue.
Finally, while in a D&D sense it may be accurate to portray even olympic class athletes as roughly like 1st level characters there are no rules in the game which define the exact capabilities of NPCs. Thus a DM could just as easily create an NPC, declare him to have an effective level of 20 WRT athletic feats, and give him a +10 level bonus.
Personally I favor the STR 25 number. It actually dovetails fairly nicely with the stat progression of upper level monsters and superhuman beings of all types in the game. It also goes quite well with our concept of maximum INT. A PC could theoretically have a 30. A real world human who spends their entire life working their brain (ala Einstein) could have a 25.
Overall this doesn't diverge too much from the idea of just saying "INT is IQ" since the range of human IQ scores goes from a low of 90 being considered "normal" to a high around 200 being the highest scores achieved in testing. IQ tests do seem to test the kind of mental acuity that the INT score seems to be describing, that is problem solving and logical thinking ability coupled with good recall of facts.
Note that IQ tests scores above around 145 are quite uncommon. Scores above 160 are extremely rare, and if you actually meet someone that ever scored 180 you will do so probably once in your life (unless you hang around certain institutions or go to lots and lots of MENSA meetings). The chances your DM thus has an "INT score" above about 15-17 is vanishingly small and the vast majority of players would probably reasonably be classed between say 12-14.
Well, You could just as easily argue that the 20xSTR number is for an amount of weight which you can LIFT AND CARRY.
You could try, but the PHB says you are wrong.
Double that number (Strength
It absolutely is an option. It takes absolutely no effort from a DM to tell his group that the stated Gods in his world can't be killed. None.
Why are you disagreeing with my premise then? When gods are "officially stated" to be only killable when the DM does something special, it "also" takes no effort for the GM to say the gods are unkillable in his campaign.
When gods are unstatted, it take a "lot" of effort to stat them to be killable, with or without story, and you add a group of people who are unhappy that gods are unstatted even when they had no intention of facing them in a campaign.
You could try, but the PHB says you are wrong.
It just so happens that DnD 4e characters are capable of carrying the maximum weight they can lift off the ground. It doesn't change the fact that Strength x20 is the maximum weight they can lift of the ground, the PHB says so.
And i've fully well aware of how normal distrubtion works across a bell curve.
Now now, your 1000 pound number is FAR beyond what any person has ever carried. I would venture to say that attempting to walk AT ALL with 500 lbs is highly risky and you could do it for no more than a few steps. A D&D character with a 25 STR can do that all day. Thus all we can do is say "well, the D&D definition of strength cannot correspond to reality" which is obvious since its a game. You could go by your definition, which seems a bit ridiculous to me since it implies a human can be stronger than any god, or you can go by mine, which I personally like better because it allows PCs to actually be "the strongest men alive" and yet "not as strong as the strongest gods".
Neither one is right or wrong because neither one, nor any other number, produces a character that behaves like a real person lifting and carrying things.
Now now, your 1000 pound number is FAR beyond what any person has ever carried. I would venture to say that attempting to walk AT ALL with 500 lbs is highly risky and you could do it for no more than a few steps. A D&D character with a 25 STR can do that all day. Thus all we can do is say "well, the D&D definition of strength cannot correspond to reality" which is obvious since its a game. You could go by your definition, which seems a bit ridiculous to me since it implies a human can be stronger than any god, or you can go by mine, which I personally like better because it allows PCs to actually be "the strongest men alive" and yet "not as strong as the strongest gods".
Neither one is right or wrong because neither one, nor any other number, produces a character that behaves like a real person lifting and carrying things.
Except that your definition leaves us with no measuring stick, thus rendering the entire excersize completely pointless. Not that it had much to begin with, but it was amusing.
Ironically, my range of up to 50 is probably more accurate than you might think; gods are based on the people who imagine them. The classical gods were petty and foolish because the people who imagined them were petty and foolish, the old christian god was wrathful and dangerous because the people who imagined him were wrathful and dangerous. A cultures gods reflect the people who inhabit it, and the Gods are only as smart as the people who imagine them.
Ergo, we would expect the DnD gods to be exactly as intelligent as the DM and PC's, because those are the people imagining them. And what a surprise, they are!
Except that your definition leaves us with no measuring stick, thus rendering the entire excersize completely pointless. Not that it had much to begin with, but it was amusing.
Bingo! Give the man a cigar. It IS completely pointless to try and use real world lifting records to show D&D strength, since D&D clearly doesn't use anywhere NEAR real world numbers for strength.
Well, it does actually pan out almost perfectly if it wasn't for the whole 'you can walk around at a speed of 2 for as long as you like carrying the maximum load you can lift off the ground because this game does not have rules for exhaustion from carrying stuff' thing.
Exactly. Thank you. I'm not disagreeing with "It is silly" either BTW. Mostly I just liked the 25 STR number and justified it. I think the justification is pretty good, but every argument about anything in D&D has always gotta be tongue in cheek really. ;)