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Golem creation rules?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Fox_Reeveheart
Nov 01, 2008 12:19:20 I don't recall anything about them in the core books... which is dumb.

There are golems already presented... HOW DID THEY GET THERE? O_O How do you make them?

I suspect a possible future build option open to anyone of the arcane power source. (I'd be rather pee'd off if it was something exclusive to wizards just like how sorcerers got the short end of the stick in a lot of creation rules in 3.5)

Maybe it's a build option. Maybe it would be something like the wondrous figurines or it's a ritual you perform after gathering the necessary materials, then the golem sticks around until killed which then it's dead for good, though it can be repaired if it hasn't been brought down to 0 hp.
#2
ieattrollsforbreakfast
Nov 01, 2008 13:37:39 I expect it's going to be a ritual, I think that mechanic is pretty much perfect for golem creation. Maybe it'll show up in Arcane Power next year.

As for build options, I recall mention of a homunculus based build for the artificer, but I can't remember where I read it.
#3
sigil_beguiler
Nov 01, 2008 14:38:40 Do you have DDI, check out the Compendium for:

-Create Golem
-Create Guardian
-Create Helmed Horror
-Create Homunculus

They are from the Special Edition of the Corebooks. But since all rules are put in the Compendium they are there as well.
#4
Fox_Reeveheart
Nov 01, 2008 16:21:47 no i don't have a DDI subscription... are you telling me that put extra crap in the special editions?

I thought it was just supposed to be leather binding or w/e I remember advertised

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIP

I bought the original core books the LEAST you could do is give me everything that was to be included, not ask me to cop out more money just so I can get the big sparkley version OF THE SAME BOOK with more crap put in.

I'll see if I'm able to access them... since they are still CORE i believe...

edit: NOPE! I GUESS SPECIAL EDITION CORE RULEBOOKS AREN'T CONSIDERED CORE

Now they do rehash older stuff into newer books. (like many old 3.0 prestige classes being put into 3.5 splatbooks) so I wouldn't mind buying a future splat that put these rituals up again. my main gripe is that I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO BUY THE SAME FRIGGIN MONSTER MANUAL. Isn't special edition just supposed to look nice and maybe come with a t-shirt or something? JEEZ LOUIZE

Keep discussing but if someone can point me to where I can complain directly to WotC, that would be VERY helpful.
#5
wizardmon
Nov 02, 2008 10:53:30 I had always assumed that standard monsters (constructs) were supposed to be considered items of that monster's level for the purposes of creating them with the Create Magic Item ritual.

That being said, I am VERY DISTURBED, UPSET, etc. that these rituals were put into the Special Edition of the core books. They should have been in the original MM, or if that could not work, in the Arcane Power sourcebook.
#6
doctorhook
Nov 02, 2008 13:44:09
Do you have DDI, check out the Compendium for:

-Aboleth Servitor
-Create Golem
-Create Guardian
-Create Helmed Horror
-Create Homunculus

They are from the Special Edition of the Corebooks. But since all rules are put in the Compendium they are there as well.

I asked about this on ENWorld, but no one seemed to know for certain. We all speculated this, of course, but can you honestly confirm, having seen with your own eyes, that these rituals appear in the Deluxe Monster Manual?

Also, FWIW, you missed one, so I added it (in bold) to the quote above.
#7
doctorhook
Nov 02, 2008 13:47:09
I had always assumed that standard monsters (constructs) were supposed to be considered items of that monster's level for the purposes of creating them with the Create Magic Item ritual.

That being said, I am VERY DISTURBED, UPSET, etc. that these rituals were put into the Special Edition of the core books. They should have been in the original MM, or if that could not work, in the Arcane Power sourcebook.

It annoys me too, although it's very likely that the print layout from the Deluxe Books, including these new rituals, will be the same as in future NORMAL (non-Deluxe) printings of the books.

Also, they'll likely appear in an errata/update file.
#8
Rustmonster
Nov 02, 2008 21:33:36
I don't recall anything about them in the core books... which is dumb.

There are golems already presented... HOW DID THEY GET THERE? O_O How do you make them?

I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game.

They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE?

Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't.
#9
zeratulcraft
Nov 02, 2008 23:35:38
I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game.

They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE?

Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't.

The unfortunate thing is, when your players find and capture the evil overlord creating the golems, he can't actually explain at all, in a way the characters could use, how he made the golems. "I dunno how I made them! I woke up and they were there! It was the crafter gnome's I tell you!"

Moreso, you can't even use the explanation of "a wizard did it" since if one wizard can, why can't another wizard of the exact same power level be unable to do the same, simply because he is controlled by a person across the table from the DM?
#10
Grimcleaver
Nov 03, 2008 5:43:26
The unfortunate thing is, when your players find and capture the evil overlord creating the golems, he can't actually explain at all, in a way the characters could use, how he made the golems. "I dunno how I made them! I woke up and they were there! It was the crafter gnome's I tell you!"

Moreso, you can't even use the explanation of "a wizard did it" since if one wizard can, why can't another wizard of the exact same power level be unable to do the same, simply because he is controlled by a person across the table from the DM?

What I would imagine he would say is: "Look at my huge laboratory workshop for making golems and all my prototype designs and reams of research, spellcircles for gathering raw elemental animus from the Elemental Chaos and clockwork dynamos for storing and directing their energy. Now look at my huge skeletal framework where I forced artisans to slave away creating every block of stone that composes the construct's body and painstakingly hoisted it into place. Then take a look at this ritual here in my ritual book, a priceless arcane formula which allows me to work the Creation ritual to take these components and fuse them together into the wonderous juggernaut of death..."

"THAT YOU AND YOUR LOUSY FRIENDS JUST TRASHED ALONG WITH HALF OF MY FAMILY CASTLE! MY PRECIOUS CREATION! NOOOOO!"

And if you ask him how to make one, he'll tell you it's about 5 years of your life and 500,000,000,000,000 gold.

---

In all seriousness, what you need to know about how to make them is pretty clear. According to the Monster Manual their animus is pure animating force from the Elemental Chaos, their body is forged from the required materials, and a ritual would almost certainly be required to pull it off. Presuming the PC's could obtain a copy of a prepared scroll containing the high level magic required (which would be beyond expensive) and the arcane components required (also a hefty sack of bling) and could arrange to get the two subjects to be joined--the animus and the fabricated golem shell--any PC could do it. A first level barbarian with a monobrow could, if handed the materials on the street, go into the lab and make one.

In some ways I think it's not that these things can't be done that bothers me personally. It's that they're too open to everyone. With a prefabricated scroll, literally all you need is enough money. You don't even need to have the feat to cast rituals. You just lay the gold on the counter and can cast ANY ritual. EVER. Heh. That's just wrong.
#11
stogoe
Nov 03, 2008 7:35:47
I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game.

They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE?

Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't.

Exactly.

The Rules of the Game are not the Physics of the Game World. NPC Eldritch Machines do not have to be made available to PCs. Sorry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Fox_Reeveheart Nov 01, 2008 12:19:20	I don't recall anything about them in the core books... which is dumb. There are golems already presented... HOW DID THEY GET THERE? O_O How do you make them? I suspect a possible future build option open to anyone of the arcane power source. (I'd be rather pee'd off if it was something exclusive to wizards just like how sorcerers got the short end of the stick in a lot of creation rules in 3.5) Maybe it's a build option. Maybe it would be something like the wondrous figurines or it's a ritual you perform after gathering the necessary materials, then the golem sticks around until killed which then it's dead for good, though it can be repaired if it hasn't been brought down to 0 hp.
#2 ieattrollsforbreakfast Nov 01, 2008 13:37:39	I expect it's going to be a ritual, I think that mechanic is pretty much perfect for golem creation. Maybe it'll show up in Arcane Power next year. As for build options, I recall mention of a homunculus based build for the artificer, but I can't remember where I read it.
#3 sigil_beguiler Nov 01, 2008 14:38:40	Do you have DDI, check out the Compendium for: -Create Golem -Create Guardian -Create Helmed Horror -Create Homunculus They are from the Special Edition of the Corebooks. But since all rules are put in the Compendium they are there as well.
#4 Fox_Reeveheart Nov 01, 2008 16:21:47	no i don't have a DDI subscription... are you telling me that put extra crap in the special editions? I thought it was just supposed to be leather binding or w/e I remember advertised WHAT A CROCK OF SHIP I bought the original core books the LEAST you could do is give me everything that was to be included, not ask me to cop out more money just so I can get the big sparkley version OF THE SAME BOOK with more crap put in. I'll see if I'm able to access them... since they are still CORE i believe... edit: NOPE! I GUESS SPECIAL EDITION CORE RULEBOOKS AREN'T CONSIDERED CORE Now they do rehash older stuff into newer books. (like many old 3.0 prestige classes being put into 3.5 splatbooks) so I wouldn't mind buying a future splat that put these rituals up again. my main gripe is that I DONT WANT TO HAVE TO BUY THE SAME FRIGGIN MONSTER MANUAL. Isn't special edition just supposed to look nice and maybe come with a t-shirt or something? JEEZ LOUIZE Keep discussing but if someone can point me to where I can complain directly to WotC, that would be VERY helpful.
#5 wizardmon Nov 02, 2008 10:53:30	I had always assumed that standard monsters (constructs) were supposed to be considered items of that monster's level for the purposes of creating them with the Create Magic Item ritual. That being said, I am VERY DISTURBED, UPSET, etc. that these rituals were put into the Special Edition of the core books. They should have been in the original MM, or if that could not work, in the Arcane Power sourcebook.
#6 doctorhook Nov 02, 2008 13:44:09	Do you have DDI, check out the Compendium for: -Aboleth Servitor -Create Golem -Create Guardian -Create Helmed Horror -Create Homunculus They are from the Special Edition of the Corebooks. But since all rules are put in the Compendium they are there as well. I asked about this on ENWorld, but no one seemed to know for certain. We all speculated this, of course, but can you honestly confirm, having seen with your own eyes, that these rituals appear in the Deluxe Monster Manual? Also, FWIW, you missed one, so I added it (in bold) to the quote above.
#7 doctorhook Nov 02, 2008 13:47:09	I had always assumed that standard monsters (constructs) were supposed to be considered items of that monster's level for the purposes of creating them with the Create Magic Item ritual. That being said, I am VERY DISTURBED, UPSET, etc. that these rituals were put into the Special Edition of the core books. They should have been in the original MM, or if that could not work, in the Arcane Power sourcebook. It annoys me too, although it's very likely that the print layout from the Deluxe Books, including these new rituals, will be the same as in future NORMAL (non-Deluxe) printings of the books. Also, they'll likely appear in an errata/update file.
#8 Rustmonster Nov 02, 2008 21:33:36	I don't recall anything about them in the core books... which is dumb. There are golems already presented... HOW DID THEY GET THERE? O_O How do you make them? I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game. They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE? Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't.
#9 zeratulcraft Nov 02, 2008 23:35:38	I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game. They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE? Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't. The unfortunate thing is, when your players find and capture the evil overlord creating the golems, he can't actually explain at all, in a way the characters could use, how he made the golems. "I dunno how I made them! I woke up and they were there! It was the crafter gnome's I tell you!" Moreso, you can't even use the explanation of "a wizard did it" since if one wizard can, why can't another wizard of the exact same power level be unable to do the same, simply because he is controlled by a person across the table from the DM?
#10 Grimcleaver Nov 03, 2008 5:43:26	The unfortunate thing is, when your players find and capture the evil overlord creating the golems, he can't actually explain at all, in a way the characters could use, how he made the golems. "I dunno how I made them! I woke up and they were there! It was the crafter gnome's I tell you!" Moreso, you can't even use the explanation of "a wizard did it" since if one wizard can, why can't another wizard of the exact same power level be unable to do the same, simply because he is controlled by a person across the table from the DM? What I would imagine he would say is: "Look at my huge laboratory workshop for making golems and all my prototype designs and reams of research, spellcircles for gathering raw elemental animus from the Elemental Chaos and clockwork dynamos for storing and directing their energy. Now look at my huge skeletal framework where I forced artisans to slave away creating every block of stone that composes the construct's body and painstakingly hoisted it into place. Then take a look at this ritual here in my ritual book, a priceless arcane formula which allows me to work the Creation ritual to take these components and fuse them together into the wonderous juggernaut of death..." "THAT YOU AND YOUR LOUSY FRIENDS JUST TRASHED ALONG WITH HALF OF MY FAMILY CASTLE! MY PRECIOUS CREATION! NOOOOO!" And if you ask him how to make one, he'll tell you it's about 5 years of your life and 500,000,000,000,000 gold. --- In all seriousness, what you need to know about how to make them is pretty clear. According to the Monster Manual their animus is pure animating force from the Elemental Chaos, their body is forged from the required materials, and a ritual would almost certainly be required to pull it off. Presuming the PC's could obtain a copy of a prepared scroll containing the high level magic required (which would be beyond expensive) and the arcane components required (also a hefty sack of bling) and could arrange to get the two subjects to be joined--the animus and the fabricated golem shell--any PC could do it. A first level barbarian with a monobrow could, if handed the materials on the street, go into the lab and make one. In some ways I think it's not that these things can't be done that bothers me personally. It's that they're too open to everyone. With a prefabricated scroll, literally all you need is enough money. You don't even need to have the feat to cast rituals. You just lay the gold on the counter and can cast ANY ritual. EVER. Heh. That's just wrong.
#11 stogoe Nov 03, 2008 7:35:47	I don't recall anything about how to make a house. HOW DO THEY GET THERE? I guess they can't be in the game. They never talk about how Kobolds reproduce. HOW DO THEY MAKE MORE? Golems were likely never intended to be made by players. Therefore, rules for their creation by players should be up to the DM's discretion. Just because mechanics are not given for the players to make them does not mean that an NPC can't. Exactly. The Rules of the Game are not the Physics of the Game World. NPC Eldritch Machines do not have to be made available to PCs. Sorry.